Why Men Suffer in Silence After Betrayal

Betrayal isn’t just about broken promises — it shatters trust, identity, and safety all at once.

In this episode of American Masculinity, Tim Wienecke talks with Dr. Debi Silber, founder of the PBT Institute and creator of the Post-Betrayal Transformation framework. Drawing on research with over 100,000 participants, Dr. Debi explains why betrayal trauma is different from other wounds, the symptoms of Post-Betrayal Syndrome™, and the five stages of healing. Together, they explore why men often suffer in silence — and how betrayal, when faced honestly, can become a catalyst for transformation.

Full Show Notes and Resources:

https://americanmasculinity.com/staff/episode-22-why-men-suffer-in-silence-after-betrayal-with-dr-silber

The American Masculinity Podcast™ is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and men’s advocate.
Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, growth, and how men can show up better — as partners, leaders, and friends.
We focus on grounded tools, not yelling or clichés. If you have questions or want a tool for something you're wrestling with, leave a comment or send a message — your feedback shapes what we build next.
Note: While this doesn’t replace therapy, it might help you notice something worth exploring.

Transcript

0:00

So I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma. I'd been through death of a loved one. I'd been through disease, and I was like, you know what? Betrayal feels different for me. We will always pick knowing what happens next, even if it hurts, then the hope of change. If we don't have a model, if we don't have somebody to guide us up those stairs and say it's gonna be okay, we will pick what we know is coming every time this one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. So if you can't trust, think about what that's gonna do in your health and your work and your relationships. When people come in with a moderate diagnosis of almost any mental health problem, when they get better, half the people in their life cycle out. If betrayals its own form of trauma, how do we even begin to heal from it? What happens when the people we trust the most are the ones that break us? If you're curious about the answer to those questions, you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winneke, and in our 22nd episode of American Masculinity we have on Dr. Debbie S Sleeper, she founded the PBT Institute, has a TED Talk and has years and years of experience helping hundreds of people recover from betrayal. We're so lucky to have her in the perspective she brings, and I was so happy that she was willing to come on and talk about not just betrayal, but the distinctions between how men, women, and others tend to process betrayal. As you listen, think about how betrayals touched your life in different ways, and we'll talk about it more at the end. Let's get started. Thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. It like we were talking about earlier, before we started recording. I've noticed in my clinical practice since the beginning that betrayal tends to be its own thing, that it tends to be a little like it's sticky. That's kind of the the feel of it. And I didn't come across your work until two years ago, and so I'm really excited to have you on and kind of normalize this for folks because I think that betrayal has become a lot like trauma where the term is misused. And the treatments and needs are misaligned with what pop culture says it is. And so I guess to get started, can you give us the definition of betrayal and the Yeah, sure. Measure your research. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, uh, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I define betrayal as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and every relationship has them. And the way it works is the more we trust and the more we depend on the person, the deeper the betrayal. So let's say a child who's totally dependent on their parent, that's gonna have a different impact than, let's say your coworker taking credit for your idea. Still a betrayal, different level of cleanup left in the wake. And one of the kind of common things is systemic betrayal. Like I, I work a lot with veterans and we really experienced this during the recent pullouts. How does that impact things? Versus an individual, like a family member or a loved one, a wife. Yeah. You know, but betrayal is really, it's that shock to the body, the mind, the heart. It's, it's where that person who you trusted and you felt safe with just kind of pulled the rug out from under you. It's like, so they took a mask off and reveals who they've been. So whenever there's that shock, that's. One of the, one of the reasons why betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a very different way to heal. It's, you know, when, originally when I was doing my study and I, I hope to have an opportunity to talk about it. Originally it was the betrayal of a family member, a partner, or a friend, and I actually had to drop the friend part because while friends will infuriate us. Anger us. They don't break us. Of course, we're never broken bent, you know, like a family member or a partner. Those are the ones that really get us. But we can be betrayed by anyone that we've trusted. You know, I remember in my study learning about how we can even be, you know, we can be betrayed by, uh, let's say a company or a product. And I think it, it was something like the love turns to hate principle, where we can love a product and. Uh, when we find out, like, let's say they say it's good for us, like a suntan lotion is good for us, and meanwhile it turns out, you know, it, it leads to cancer or something like that. We turn on a company like that so fast and we would rather knowingly choose something we know is not in our best interest because then it's up to us. We do not like being duped. Absolutely. I, I think a lot about how much trust we put in different systems in different relationships, and the, the way it always feels to me is like when you, that moment when you go to lean on something and it isn't there. And you just fall, like that shock, that drop feeling in your chest. You know, I remember one of my study participants saying, you know what? You know what it feels like. It feels like every negative emotion you can imagine getting punched in the gut and losing a child in a crowd. All at the same time. Mm-hmm. You know, think about it. This was the person or people who gave us a sense of safety and security, and then this is the very person or people who take that sense of safety and security away. This is the person you run to when other people are causing the harm. Who's now the person who's causing the. So it's, it's completely disorienting. Traumatizing, I mean, all of it. The good news is you can, we can heal from all of it. So it's, it's all in the discoveries. Absolutely. I, it reminds me of something I started to notice working with, uh, sexual assault survivors in the military is the symptoms of those folks ran a lot more like incest than a sexual assault because it was so layered. It wasn't just the, the assault and all of the things that go with that, which is huge and complex, but it was also, it's almost always somebody that has some power over them in uniform. And so it's the whole system and it's kind of the breaking of the family in a lot of cases. Well, you now think about it, this was the, the, the breaking of that spoken or unspoken rule in this case. The rule is, I'll listen to you, you take care of me. And when they, when they violate that rule, it is a complete betrayal. Yeah. What were like the most common betrayals in the study? Yeah, it was, it, it typically was the, it started with, uh, a betrayal from a family member and then later on it was relational. And this is so common and one of the most classic signs of an unhealed betrayal is repeat betrayal. The face has changed, but it's the same thing. So we go from friend to friend to friend boss, to boss to boss partner to partner to partner. And we think, is it me? Yes, it is not in that it's your fault ever. And that it's your opportunity. There's a profound lesson waiting to be learned. Maybe the lesson is you are lovable, worthy, and deserving. Like, get that already, or you need better boundaries in place until, and unless we finally get that, we will have opportunities in the form of people to teach us. And that was, you know, my experience was here. I, I had a, a betrayal from my family. I thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened a few years later. This time it was my husband, so that was the deal breaker. Got him out of the house and looked at the two experiences thinking what's similar here? Of course me, but what else? And I realized I never took my needs seriously. It was always about everybody else. Boundaries were always getting crossed. And I'm one of those people that believes if nothing changes, nothing changes. So there I couldn't find a book or a course or something, and. That's what I would go to, to help me through something. So this was so big for me that I needed to get out of this and study it. So big. So I enrolled in a, in a PhD program here. I was, you know, four kids, six dogs, a business, and going back for this PhD. And it was really just to, just to heal so I could be there for my kids and my clients. And while I was there, I did a study. I studied betrayal just to help me heal. And that study led to the three discoveries, which changed my work, my family, my health, my life. Well, that's a, that's a good transition point for the next question. What are those discoveries that you made? So the first discovery was I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma. I'd been through death of a loved one, I'd been through disease, and I was like, you know what? Betrayal feels different for me. Uh, I didn't wanna assume it was the same for everyone in my study. So I asked them, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, is it different for you? And unanimously everyone said it's. Entirely different. Feels entirely different. And here's why. Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the self is shattered. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. Like when you lose someone you love, for example, you grieve, you mourn. Life will never be the same. You don't necessarily question the relationship. You know, question, your ability to trust, right? With betrayal you do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma was the first discovery. And you know, originally I was studying betrayal and post-traumatic growth and, and I love the idea of post-traumatic growth, which I kinda look at as the upside of trauma. How. That trauma, whatever it is, leaves you with a new awareness, insight, perspective you didn't have. Right? But the invitation with betrayal is like, let's say you lose someone you love, you rebuild your life. When it comes to betrayal, you rebuild your life. You also have to rebuild this self. So I coined a new term post betrayal transformation, which is sort of post-traumatic growth plus rebuilding the self equals post. Betrayal, uh, transformation because it really rocks your sense of self down to the foundation. Absolutely everything you've known about yourself, your identity, your all of it shattered and, um, has to be completely rebuilt. Doesn't have to be, but the opportunity is there and you can intentionally and deliberately build a version of you that never would've had the opportunity to be created had that not happened. That's trauma well served. Yeah, I think the, the big thing that's running through my mind as you talk about that is that post-traumatic growth is you learn something about yourself, betrayal as you learn something about the world. And the other thing that that's running through my mind is Americans, we like to think of ourselves as these big individualists. And we are, we're, we're the most in individualistic culture on the planet, and yet. Our sense of self is still so important when it has a reflection point in the people that we depend on and are around us. And it's when that reflection point snaps that all of a sudden we lose track of ourselves. Absolutely. And we make it mean something about us. And it has, you know, and, and, and I'd love to share this in, in case someone you know, because this comes up all the time. If you have to repeat this a million times, it's worth it. Even though it happened to you, it's not about you. This is someone else's lack or sense of entitlement or unhealed trauma or, uh, you know, whatever reason they chose to do this. Uh, you were impacted deeply by it, but it has nothing to do with you. We have a program actually. Within the PBT Institute for the Betrayers as well. And at first I was like, would that be triggering? And they're an ETI, entirely separate community. But even for me to work with the betrayers, and actually it's so, I get so much out of it because these are people who've completely blown up their lives and have crashed and burned and they're truly ready to become someone they're proud of. And they tell me all the time, it had nothing to do. With my partner, which, uh, which is a, is is beautiful to hear. I work with so many guys recovering from infidelity and the, the shock to their system on they were the guy that broke that promise is almost always devastating to their sense of self. And I always feel bad for the guys that don't do clinical work around that because that's when I start to see a lot of dysfunctional behaviors continue after the marriage. Where they just can't get their feet under. And so I, I think that's a beautiful thing that you have, and I'm really glad it exists. Yeah, thanks. It, it's, uh, you know, we, we have, we have men in both of our programs. They're the betrayed and they're the betrayers as well. And it's, uh, it's, it's so, it's just so beautiful to see whichever side they're on that they're truly ready to move. To move through something. And, and that's, that was actually the third discovery. Uh, but, but there's the, you know, the second discovery as well. They struggle with symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. What? That was the second one. What? That there's this actually collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional. So common to betrayal. It's now known as post betrayal syndrome. We've had over a hundred thousand people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. A few things about that. The first thing is. We've all been taught, time heals all wounds, right? I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's simply not true. There's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like, my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'll never trust again. My betrayal happened 15 years ago. It happened. Feels like it happened yesterday. So we know we can't count on time. We can't even count on a new relationship to heal it. That healing needs to be deliberate and intentional. And every few months, I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people land, happy to share them, if that would serve. Great. Sure. So now imagine men, women, just about every country's represented over a hundred thousand people. As much as you're gonna hear these symptoms. I want you to hear these numbers. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. Think of the choices you make when you have a loss of personal power. 94% deal with painful triggers. If you've ever had a trigger, they're debilitating. The most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue. So you could sleep all night. You wake up, you're exhausted. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe they can't hold food down Later on, they're emotionally eating, using food for comfort. 45% have a digestive issue, and that could be anything. Crohn's IBS, diverticulitis, most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed. Think about how that'll impact you at your work. Right? Uh, 68% can't focus. 64% are in shock. 62% can't concentrate. So imagine that you can't concentrate. Let's say you have a gut issue, you're exhausted. You still have to deal with your family, right? Your kids, your aging parents, your work, your community obligations. That's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience, extreme sadness, 83% are very angry, and you could be bouncing back and forth between those two emotions all day long. Think about how that exhausting that would be, and also bringing that anger to the workplace with you or whatever you're doing, right? I'll just read a few more. 79% are stressed. This one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. So if you can't trust, think about what that's gonna do in your health and your work and your relationships. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships again because they're afraid of being hurt. So the big wall goes up, they keep everyone at a distance. Uh, 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% wanna move forward, but they don't know how. What's staggering to me? Is, you didn't hear me say 20%, 30%. These numbers are super high. They're also not representative of a recent betrayal. Mm-hmm. This could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from the partner who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know care. Remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are. Decades later with these symptoms because of something left unheeded. The good news is you can heal from all of it. That was third discovery. Well, I think that lines up perfectly with what we know about real trauma, like post-traumatic stress and holding it for years is all of the health outcomes are terrible. Yeah. Exactly. You know, you know, when you, when you hold these tensions, it's so bad for you. It's just across the board. It's so bad. There was a, a, there was a woman in our program, in her mid eighties just to, just to, you know, give you a sense of, of what this can look like. Mid eighties, she had a, um, a family betrayal when she was a little kid. She was adopted. They didn't tell her that kind of thing. And for 70 plus years she had a digestive issue. Where she was medicating, trying everything, 70 plus years, two weeks in our program, she healed from a 70 plus year digestive issue. That's what happens when you deal with the root cause versus just treating the symptoms. But what we do is, and you'll see this as I share the third discovery, we wind up medicating and suppressing the symptoms and we stay stuck in, and that's where repeat betrayals happen. That's where we're living this, this life of just. Stuckness because we don't know how to move through it, which I'm happy to share. If you wanna hear, I would love to hear because that would've been an awkward moment if you said no. So no, I just wanna hear about suffering. Just keep pouring the suffering. That's what people are here for. So the third discovery, for me personally, this was the most exciting and what we learned was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do. If we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome that I just shared to that completely rebuilt place where you rebuild your life and yourself called Post Betrayal transformation, we will move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we now know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage, and we know what we need to do in order to move from one stage to the next. Healing's entirely predictable and happy to share the stages. Please do. Uh, so th this is all we do within the PBT Institute. It's what I certify all of our coaches and practitioners in. I'm gonna give you a, a boil down version. So stage one is before it happens, and if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the. Physical and the mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being, well, if a table only has two legs, it's going to be easy for that table to topple over. That's us. That's not to say if. You are neglecting your emotional and your spiritual, you will be betrayed. It was just a typical profile that I saw. Stage two, shock trauma, D-Day, discovery day. The scariest of all of the stages. I imagine. This is where some people find you, and this is, uh, this is the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview right here. We've ignited the stress response. We're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Our mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We cannot wrap our mind around what we've just discovered. This makes no sense and our worldview has just been shattered. Our worldview is our mental model, the rules that govern us that prevent chaos. Trust this person. Don't go here. These are the rules. This is how life works. And in one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule we've been following is no longer true. The bottom has bottomed out. And a new bottom hasn't been formed yet, so this is terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on us, what would we do? We'd grab hold of anything or any one in order to stay safe and stay alive. That's stage three Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get outta my way, how can I survive this? Where can I go? Who can I trust? Here's the trap though. Stage three by far, hands down, is the most common place we get stuck, and here's why. Once we've figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or stage five. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage four, but because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we try to find a way to make this work. So we plant roots here, we're not supposed to, and then four things, it becomes normal start to happen. The first thing is we start getting all of those small self benefits, secondary gain. We get to be right. We get our story. We love our story. I'm sure people come to you with the most well-rehearsed stories. They can't wait to share. We, uh. We, we get sympathy from everyone we share our story with, and on some level we're so unhappy and we're not getting much else. So we take it so we plant deeper roots. And now, because we're here longer than we should be, the mind starts doing things like, you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you just served it. Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots and now, because these are the thoughts, we're thinking, well, this is the energy we start putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now we start calling in circumstances and, and situations and even new relationships to confirm this is where we belong, here's where we will seek out someone who will confirm and validate and, and so we, we sort of get some relief, but we're not moving forward. Here's where we joined some lame support group and now we're commiserating with others. We found our people. We sabotage ourselves because we found our group, here's where we may be healing. We actually will sabotage our healing because we're afraid to outgrow the betrayer who has no intention of changing. If that's who they're, it gets worse, but I'll get you outta here because it feels so bad. But we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We're like, I have to get through my day. So right here, we start numbing, avoiding distracting. So now we use food, drugs, alcohol, whatever to numb, avoid, distract. So we do it for a day, a week, a month. A year, you know, like 10 years, 20 years, and I can see someone 20 years later and say, Hey, that drinking, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they'd look at me like I'm crazy. They'd say It happened 20 years ago. All they did was lock themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense? It really does. It's, it's something that I've, I've noticed in practice consistently, and I think there's good finding on it with like the drama triangle and, and different kind of trauma modalities, is we will always pick knowing what happens next. Even if it hurts, then the hope of change. If we don't have a model, if we don't have somebody to guide us up those stairs and say it's gonna be okay, we will pick what we know is coming every time. Yeah. And and that's the thing, because if, if. People knew what was waiting for them in stages four and five, and I'd love to get you outta stage three. If they knew what was waiting for them in stages four and five, they wouldn't waste a minute in stage three. But it's the known familiar. And the longer they're there, the worse it gets because now all they're doing is managing symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. They're having repeat betrayals because if nothing changes, nothing changes. And they're living this stage three life. Attracting stage three people and thinking is it them? And, you know, and constantly questioning everything. Their self-esteem has plummeted. They haven't rebuilt the self, so it's just, it's a, it's a mess to stay in stage three anyway, if your willing, willingness is a big word right here to, uh, grieve more than the loss. A bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Just in that decision, you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage that was going on in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, whatever, your stuff's not there. You know, it's not quite cozy yet, but it's this sort of hopeful excitement. It feels like that. But think about it. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you. You don't take those things that don't represent who you're now ready to become. And what I found was there's this one spot as people go from stage three to stage four, like that lame support group. Nope. It's not coming along. Those friends who weren't there for you, nope. Not coming along that betrayer who's not changing, you're done. And people ask me all the time, they're like, what the heck? These people have been in my life, you know, 20 years. Is it neat? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. If they don't rise, they don't come. Uh, anyway, when you've settled into this space, you've made it cozy. You've made it sort of mentally home. You move into the fifth. Most beautiful stage, and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care. You know, you didn't have the bandwidth that earlier. Now you do. Uh, the mind is healing. You're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on the road you just traveled. And even new worldview based on everything you see. So clearly no, and the four legs of that table. In the beginning it was just all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages. Yeah, I think that's, that's beautiful and it lines up with so much in what we see with trauma recovery, major life change. When people come in with a moderate diagnosis of almost any mental health problem, when they get better, half the people in their life cycle out. In my experience, like the, the clients come in, their whole life is built around this problem. And then once that problem goes away, there are people that don't make the turn with you. Yeah, yeah, of course. And, and what's so beautiful is it is so common for us to see when someone, uh, enters into stage four or five new businesses, new passion projects, new relationships, either with the person who, who hurt them, but on a very different level or with someone entirely new. Uh, you just didn't have access to that when you were stuck in your trauma. And there's, there's such opportunity when, when you move through the stages. Well, it's the, I, I see it all the time when I'm working with people with post-traumatic stress or even more complex post-traumatic stress. It's even worse where as the symptoms go down as they start to heal. The energy that's just been like three-fourths of their gas tank has been just been running on all these triggers and trying to provide all the safety that they can't create that, all of a sudden they get the vast majority of that back and lo and behold, new careers, new passions, new projects. Exactly. It's, it's beautiful to see and that's, that's when you've used your trauma as a catalyst for your transformation. That's the version of you that's, that's waiting underneath. It's almost like the prize for going through it. If you're gonna bother going through all of that, the worst of it happened already. You owe it to yourself to meet that version of you waiting on the other side. Yeah. You can keep living in this or can do something different. Exactly. Exactly. Within all that, you know, you've been doing this for how long now? The, well, I've been in business 34 years, but my betrayal was 20, uh, was the end of 2015. By 2016 I was in the PhD program. By 2018, the discoveries were made and then. I created the PBT Institute. It was a live physical space at first, and even the local people then wanted to be online. So I said, what am I doing this for? Brought the whole thing online. It's a lot of money to maintain the live space. And yeah, and then the, uh, the books Flu Outta Me, the TEDx talks, the, uh, certification program, national Forgiveness Day. I mean, we just, it's, it's, it's just been, it's just been an amazing ever since. It's almost like you got a bunch of bandwidth and energy back after you started to heal. Well, that, that's it. That's it. Exactly. And just to close the loop on my story, uh, healing is, and rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild, rebuild yourself and move along. That's what I did with my family. They were deeply stuck in stage three. It wasn't an option to rebuild something different with them. Uh, and. With my husband, uh, not long ago as to completely transform people. We married each other again. Uh, new rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids is our bridal party. You know, be betrayal will show you who someone truly is, and it also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became. Not that you need to do anything with it, but there's tremendous opportunity if you want to. Yeah, when a system moves, it's always a really wonderful thing. And I'm really glad that you all were able to reconnect and that your kids get to be part of it. That's lovely. It's, uh, we're making up for a lot of lost time now. Having a lot more fun. Um, all four kids are, have their four partners and, and it's, um, the 10 of us. We're just a, a, a big, really fun, happy family, just traveling around together, doing great things, looking for each other all the time, connecting, staying in touch. It's, it's, it's great. Well, it's, it goes back to the idea that we bond through difficulty as much as we do ease. It's so true. And so if you can have both with somebody, yeah. Our kids became so close during that time because look what they had been through together. My husband was actually the one who told them, so I think he transformed to the level that he did, you know, when he had four kids looking at him like you did what? It's a mom, you know, and, uh, and they, they got so close and he's rebuilt relationships in a very different way with all of them because they're all different and needed different things from him. Well, I think with fathers, the, the status drive is huge there, there's always this critical moment with every father I work with, where their kids stop seeing them as the superhero. It's always heartbreaking, however long they can hold it off, right? But once it happens, it's devastating. And when it's off of a major betrayal of a value, you know, this is our family, these are our values, and the dad is seen and witnessed not living to those. It's always crushing. It's, it's a lot, it's a lot to, uh, to just move through and, and, and make up for. But I, you know, and I, I work with a lot of people with this because it's not the, it's really not the betrays job to do. They need to, they still need to be there for the kids in the, in the best way they can. Certainly not to throw the betrayer under the bus, uh, but. They always, I, I find they try to do the work for the betrayer, but it's such a beautiful opportunity for the betrayer to take full and complete responsibility, um, have that deep remorse, regret, apology, and create a new relationship based on who they're now ready to be. Well, and you just can't do somebody's work for them. No amount of effort's gonna fix that for anybody else. You can make space, you can hold room. I, I think the hard part I see is. Couples coming outta a betrayal with children. The really hard part is, it's so difficult because you see your partner in your kids and you're so hurt. You forget that when you trash talk the betrayer to the kids, you're talking about half of them. Yeah. Right. That's their parent. And so it's, uh, it's, it's sticky, but it's, um, it's, it's a beautiful opportunity. It can be. Yeah. Well, and I think, I think kids end up being such a powerful motivator for so many people. I, my favorite client to work with is often young dads because they are the most motivated to do something different every time. Yeah. Well, I, I guess that kind of carries into some of the more gendered questions, you know, after studying this, getting a hundred thousand. Different intakes and all the information you've gathered, what are the main differences you've seen between men, women, and non-binary folks on how betrayal exists either culturally or symptomatically? You know, I, I see it, I see the biggest difference being that women feel more comfortable speaking up and just finding that support, seeking that support. And the men, uh, tend to feel so much more shame in, in reaching out. That's, that's just one thing. I, I classically, uh, see the, there's, uh, we have both the betrayed and the betrayers in our community, but in our betrayer program, it, it's usually more men than women. Women are definitely still there. And I remember reading something about this when I was doing my study, reading somebody else's study about how it seems that women tend to find the lies of deception harder to get over where the men. Find the physical, the harder to get over. So, um, that was just something as well, but it's just as traumatizing and painful whether you're, you know, a man or a woman. Well, I think that's one of the things we, we've, we find a lot and the more I have conversations with various clinicians, you know, we go crazy by culture. And so we're all mammals like you, me and my pet dog have very similar emotional sets on a basic level, but how we're allowed to exhibit those and what hits us and what we're ashamed of being seen in the world as is gonna be very different based on our gender. You know what, where I see where I see it, uh, it's a, there's a tremendous difference. We have, uh, so far we've, we've launched in, um, in Vietnam and Kenya and the Middle East, where they've taken, it's our certified coaches where our program has been translated and they coach, uh, members because it's different cultures and customs. Mm-hmm. And while we're global. They know the specific cultures and customs and I was just speaking with our representative, our coach in the Middle East. It is, it's so different there as far as the genders, uh, see how they see and manage betrayal. So it's, it's different, you know, it's different everywhere. But the hurt is there regardless. So what are the kind of key differences that they're finding between Americans and Middle Easterners in this regard? Yeah. Well, one thing is, is even according to certain cultures and customs, they can have, let's say the men can have a second wife, that doesn't make it any less painful to the wife who's been betrayed. Even if that's acceptable or, it reminds me a lot of what happens when some Latino cultures. Where there is an acceptance that at a certain saddest level, men in this culture will likely have affairs, but should that man ever bring that woman into his wife's house, that's an ultimate betrayal. So it's not just that this is happening, but you've broken the various other vows attached to it. Uh, it sounds more like the, it's a layered impact. Is how I would frame it. Yeah. I mean, I'm all for, Hey, if it's not acceptable for you, it shouldn't be acceptable for you. So it just, it's all about fairness. It's, I, I, you know, as a, a highly sensitive empath with integrity as my highest value, I don't find any reason ever why betrayal is ever Okay. I don't look at it like a mistake. It's a choice and a really painful one. Because I see the devastation. I've experienced it. So it's, I, if people could just take a moment and say, would I want this done to me? How would I feel? How would I experience this and what would be a way to handle this scenario so I can move through it and, and have some, some growth, some learning. You, you know, on the other side, instead of destroying the heart and trust of the very person who loves me the most and trust me the most. It's always really interesting to watch because the, a lot of the guys I work with, they're both recovering and committing, right, and it's always, they have to kind of heal what hurt they had before they're ready to take on accountability for what they've done. Because it's almost always connected to the reason, you know, no one wants to paint themselves as the villain. And so part of why this terrible choice was made was well, uh, because X, Y, Z. And so I, I think it goes back to that, you know, that old adage that is mostly true hurt people. Hurt people. Yeah. And that, that hurt definitely needs to be worked on and moved through. Uh, but what I also see is a lot of times the betrayed will make excuses. Oh, well, they've been through a lot. They've been through trauma. They've been through. Okay, well so have you, but have you made those choices? Right. You know, it's, that's why it's a, it's definitely they need the support. They need the help, but, uh, we, we can't excuse it. Well, it's been, it's been interesting. So one of the more interesting things about my practice in the last few years is, uh, colleagues are sending me their husbands. And even within, they're in a relationship with a clinician that understands mental health, that understands big change. That when these guys come and they change these patterns that their partners have been excusing, building around, building a life around, there are still some that don't make the turn for the change with them. Those excuses are too needed. The, the accountability they have now that that's not, that problem isn't there is too much. Yeah. It's hard. Change is hard change. Change is hard and forgiveness is really hard too. You know, forgiveness is just a word until you do it. And I'm saying that as someone who founded National Forgiveness Day, that would celebrate every year on September 1st. So it's, uh, but if, and, and forgiveness also doesn't mean reconciliation. It really just means we are releasing the power the pain has over us. But there are many people who, even though. The, the, that person may have, they've made those choices. They have seen the light. They are on a path to healing for the betrayed. It's, it just seems too big of a mountain to overcome and it seems easier for them just to, just to walk away. Well, it's like the old DBT adage around the, the H House in clinical work. Where someone who's really hurt is in this cold, nasty basement with a dirt floor, and there's stairs going up, and they can hear people laughing and having a good time in the living room, but the stairs are covered in glass and they're barefoot, and so maybe they'll try and it hurts too much and they get off of it, and it goes that way until someone shows up with a broom, right? We need structure and support around these big pain points that we're not meant to do these things by ourselves. And I think that's my big problem with a lot of the self-help space is it's often talked about like, here, read this book, do these steps and you'll be better. And I think for, for a lot of people that's true. But on the really deep hurts, it goes so much better with support. And so much better with somebody with practical skills on guiding you through it. No, absolutely. I'll tell you that I certify coaches and practitioners and what I will look for any day of the week is someone who's been through it. Uh, of course, whether you've been through it or not, everybody's still going through the training, but when someone's been through it, there are, there are realistic, believable example who's just a few steps ahead. And who can say, okay, I, first of all I get, you're not crazy, you're not alone. You can heal from all of it. And, and there are these five stages that you have to move through. I'm, I've done it. I'm no different than you, you can do the same thing. So it's, uh, it's giving someone that sort of, uh, just that structure and that that roadmap when they are just struck by something they never saw coming. Well, and it gives the pain purpose, right? I, I can't remember who. I keep looking up for the quote and I can't find who said it, but, uh, pain without purpose is just suffering. And when you talk about these big, big pains like betrayal and, and Capital T trauma, the main way that I see people enter full recovery from them is by finding a way to help other people that have experienced it in some way. And so I think that's why coaching programs like yours are so beautiful for people. Thank you. It's, uh, it's definitely when someone moves through it, they feel so, uh, motivated to help others because they see it, you know, it shortens someone's pain by, by decades. It's like, oh, I don't have to just sort of flounder in this stage three, here's how I get to stage four. Here's how it gets to stage five. So when they've done that, when they've experienced it, um, they're, they, they love the idea of sharing that with others. Well, and I think everybody listening is probably thinking of people in their life. Where the different cues and stages are popping into their head, like, oh, that's where Sally is. That's where Bob is when we know somebody that we love deeply and care for is living in the early stages of this. Yeah. What are the ways that we can support those people to find their way and to get to the healing? Yeah, I, you know, I think one of the most helpful things is letting them know there's a roadmap and, and assessing what stage they're in, which you could do, just even by hearing what we shared, you know, what we talked about, and then knowing they're not, they're not crazy. This is a very different type of trauma and it needs a very different way to heal. And, um, and then from knowing the stages, knowing that it's, it needs that, that different approach because it's such a, a shock to the system than just taking a very, very first step. Whatever that first step is. Yeah, I think it, it almost always comes back to the same thing that's incredibly simple, but incredibly hard is that kind direct acknowledgement. I see these things in you. I see these things hurting you. I care for you. I'll care for you. Whether you're acting this way or not. These are the things that maybe you could do. What have you tried? Yeah. I mean, I, I can't tell you how many times people have told me, um, that they sent my TEDx talk to have post betrayal syndrome as sort of their way of giving a little intervention. Oh, I just happened to see this TED Talk. Did you see it? That's sort of their first wave of, remember, uh, I had a family member locked in on a, a road trip, and I just played at a particular audio book. There you go. Same idea. Oh, isn't this interesting? Like, I don't know. It was, it was an interesting topic. Yep. Same idea. Yep. It's, it's one of those things where our voices turn into Charlie Brown's teacher's voices for our loved ones after a while, and finding different ways to get the information to them while sometimes it hurts because you're like, these are things I've said to you, but this expert says it now. It's, it's impactful. I find that even with our, our certified PBT coaches, I, I just did a, uh, a, a masterclass and I had a few of them share, and they're so different. They could be saying the same. They could be teaching on the same topic, but the way they're saying it with their mannerisms and their little, their slant, their twists on it, their stories that go with it, all of a sudden we had so many people say, oh my gosh, I completely resonate with what he said. I totally resonate with what she just said. And it's fascinating because they were talking about the same thing, but it's just as it, you know, as they were ready to hear it in that way, it, it clicked. When I think that's the, and I'm, I'm sure that you've taken those students' lessons and brought it into your teaching when they're profound. I, I think that's what distincts a great educator versus a good educator is a good educator has two ways to explain something. A great educator has three. It's not that far apart, and that's how we learn 'em. You teach long enough, students start teaching you. Yeah, I, it's, I'm always, I think anybody who says they know it all, I run, it's never a good thing. In my experience. That's all. Well, I wanna be really respectful of your time and I wanna leave some, some space for the personal questions for us to get you to know you a little bit. And so the, the stark question for all of the guests that come on is, what's the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12? That remains true today. You know, I would say, I, I remember looking at men and women like, like an egg. And it sounds so funny, but. Where, um, a man was a regular egg, hard on the outside and soft on the inside, where a woman was more like a, a, a, a, a soft boiled egg, right? They were, they were sort of softer through, through and through and it was just so, so interesting to me that there, there was this perception of this and this tough exterior, but such a softness underneath. Hmm. Where the, the women, um, that, that, you know, I was around anyway, had more of a sort of, that, that hard boil egg where it was a little more consistent through and through. So for you, it, it sounds kinda like that idea of, uh, brittle strength and masculinity where you can make it very cutting. You can make it very sharp. You can make it very strong, but once it hits its breaking point. Can't put Humpty Dumpty back together and, and just to, just that, that there's, there's such softness there, but there's this shield of exterior like that, you know, don't, don't go there. I'm, this is the perception, this is the mask, but, but this is truly what's underneath. Yeah. In one of our earlier episodes we had, uh, a Jewish colleague come on, and one of the things he talked about was within the Jewish tradition, there's a point in it where the wife walks around and systemically like breaks through his walls, like I'm coming in. And it's so just ingrained in that culture as a thing that is known that, uh, the man is gonna be hard on the outside and his wife is gonna get inside. Yeah. Beautiful. So the, the next question is, is tell us about a time where pursuit of your femininity hurt you. Um, you know, I, I don't, I don't remember a time where it, where it hurt me. I, I think I've always been a little bit protective of like, I was never like the flirty type or the really showy type or the, so I think there was always this element of. Keep your yourself a little bit reserved and a little bit protected so that you don't overstep. And I, and, and I noticed, I remember years ago, uh. Just when a lot of couples were dating and whatever, I never, ever wanted. I always was looking for that girlfriend and to, to see that she was comfortable with any interaction. I were to have with her boyfriend, fiance, husband, uh, that was always something I was always, always mindful of. I think it's just because of how sensitive I am that mm-hmm. You know, sometimes there's that overstepping or that they're just, someone is putting their femininity maybe a little too much in someone's space. And I was always mindful of that because I, I just never wanted anyone uncomfortable. Well, we always like to kind of go out on a high note with these things. What's a time where your femininity empowered you? You know, I, I think now it's just, I would say standing in. Just standing in the truth of what I know and being, just being. Just authentically me. There's something so freeing about whether you're a man, woman. I don't, I don't really even think it matters, like now at this stage that I'm in and this, this stage in my career, this stage in my life, this stage in my growth, uh, just feeling so comfortable. In my own skin and in my own lane, and I'm, I'm super clear, if something is not in my lane, I try, I will not act like it is, uh, but just this is, this is who I am, this is what I know, and, and feeling really good and just solid in that space. It took a long time to get there. Well, it sounds like this kind of ties into the, the first discussion of that awareness of others has now been completely balanced by this awareness of self, where you know yourself well enough, you've been around enough people, where you know how you land in a room and you know how to land well, and you know how to, well land kindly. I still have no idea how I land in a room. I just know what I feel as I'm bringing up. I have no idea how I'm perceived or looked at and none, and it's none of my business, you know? But, but I know how I feel as I'm mm-hmm. As I'm bringing whatever it is I'm meant to bring. Well, I think that's that sensitivity, right, where that's, that resonance is always how I think of it with sensitive folks where your impact on a room impacts you. You can't not, but the more comfortable you are and the more you know how you're moving through the space, the easier those are to ride. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all this. If people wanna find you, if people want to take your coaching courses, if people wanna read your work, where would they find it? Uh, everything. Thank you. Everything is at the PBT as in post betrayal transformation, the pbt institute.com. Fantastic. Anybody who's listening, if this is something that you feel you need or a loved one needs, visit it. There's gonna be resources for you and I've looked, they're very, very good resources. Thank you so much. Thank you, and that's our conversation with Debbie Sliver. I'm so glad she came on and shared her deep knowledge set on betrayal. As always, we'd like to fact check here. We didn't have much to correct. Dr. Debbie really did a good job of sharing her framework and the numbers she's collected over the years, but there isn't much academics to back it up. She's mostly kept the information in her wheelhouse and is using it to help in her ways, so don't be afraid to use what she's used. She's helped hundreds of people. She's acclaimed, has a TED Talk and is a viable resource. I'm so glad you came on to share that information with us. At the beginning of the episode, I asked you to think about how betrayals touched your life. If you're willing in the comments, share how you might start to heal from that betrayal. If it's too personal, not ready to be made public, don't worry about it. But if there's somebody else that you know that's suffering from a betrayal that could benefit from hearing this discussion, please share it with them. We wanna get these tools out as far and as wide as we can. I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time when we talk about fathers and daughters. I'll see you there.