What Really Happens To Dads In Family Court.

What really happens when fathers step into family court? And how do men cope with the chaos of divorce, custody battles, and financial strain?

In this episode of the American Masculinity Podcast, host Tim Wienecke sits down with Furkhan Dandia, a Canadian Certified Counsellor, therapist, and divorced father, to unpack the realities men face in court. With a background that spans two decades in engineering and business before moving into therapy, Furkhan brings both personal experience and professional insight into how the system impacts dads.

Together they explore why custody often feels stacked against fathers, how stigma and brief hearings shape outcomes, and what practical steps men can take when everything feels out of their control. From therapy and men’s groups to radical acceptance and community rebuilding, this episode offers clarity and tools—not easy answers, but real strategies that matter.

If you’re a father navigating family court, or a clinician supporting men through it, this conversation delivers validation, hard truths, and hope for rebuilding life on the other side.

The American Masculinity Podcast™ is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and men’s advocate.
Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, growth, and how men can show up better — as partners, leaders, and friends.
We focus on grounded tools, not yelling or clichés. If you have questions or want a tool for something you're wrestling with, leave a comment or send a message — your feedback shapes what we build next.
Note: While this doesn’t replace therapy, it might help you notice something worth exploring. 

Transcript

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Abuse does get weaponized at times. Now, it's not to say it doesn't happen, it obviously happens, but in some cases it's, it's not happening, is reminding them that when they critique the other parent in front of the kids, that that's half of the kid. Like if you're the biological parents and you're talking trash about your ex-spouse, that kid feels the parts of themselves getting attacked by their parent. I think part of the struggle. I can speak from personal experience too, is you know, the system's designed for justice, but it can be completely unjust going through the pain of a divorce. You have to learn some boundaries. You're doomed to find the same person with the same problems and do the same things, but dialing in the difference between having boundaries that are healthy and being entire closed off to connection is so tricky. Every week in my practice, I see how painful, complicated, and chaotic family court can be for guys, and that's why I wanted to have Fahan on. He's a clinician who specializes in helping men navigate these problems and is a father who's had to do it himself. As you listen, please listen for moments and ways that you might better how you approach this. And if you find this at all helpful, please like and subscribe so we can get this information to as many men as we possibly can. Thanks for being here. Let's get started. Thanks so much for coming on. Yeah, no, happy to be here. Um, glad to talk again. It was fun the first time. Right. I, I like, that's my, been my favorite part of the whole podcasting thing is getting to see good people doing good work more than once. Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. So starting with that, to kind of catch everybody else up a little bit that maybe doesn't know you, what's your background and what makes you as knowledgeable as you are of the like family court system? Uh, yeah. So my background is in engineering. I did a degree in mechanical engineering, finished early twenties and then worked in corporate mostly oil and gas at a, at a refinery. And then. Last 10 years in, in the corporate side of things. So all in all 20 years in the field and, uh, decided to transition into therapy. And I can definitely get into the whys, but part of your question around why do I have knowledge of family law courts is just going through the process myself of divorce and parenting, which has been challenging to say the least, in terms of even seeing. My child at times. So that's allowed me to really understand the legal system because I've been in it for the last eight years. I've worked with various lawyers, I've self-represented, I've studied, uh, case law. And then now I'm also working in this space where, uh, when I was mentioning to you before we jumped on here in the recording, that I'm trying to get my license as a psychologist so I can work full-time. The parenting coordination side. So that's where you're working with parents and mediating or sometimes even arbitrating on parenting issues or just working with children, helping them, supporting them. So there's a lot of coaching involved from a D divorce side of things because that is just reality in the society we live in. So how do we equip people to make sure they're not only doing things they need to do for themselves, but also. Looking out in the best interest of their children. So that's been my experience and now I'm hoping to give back from what I've learned being in it for so long and how I can support others. Yeah, I think it's always interesting when I hear about couples going through a divorce that don't get any support around how to do the co-parenting thing.'cause it's hard. Mm-hmm. Like it's a really tricky transition. And the courts. They're getting better about it, but it's still not great. Right. It's a system of punishment and rules as opposed to a system of empowerment.'cause by its nature, right, that's the justice system. Yes. I'm not trying to trash people that work within it. Right. It's just what it is. Mm-hmm. So I've probably, in the last 10 years, I've seen a lot of guys go through divorce, go through the process of courts, and here in Colorado things tend to get. Worse in the uglier divorces because the only way to avoid that from a legal standpoint is abuse situations. Mm-hmm. And so that tends to be a pretty common one. I see. Come forward with guys that I'm working with. What are the three more common struggles you see guys face in family court in the last few years? Yeah, absolutely. I think parenting is number one. In my case, for example, the location city was changed. So how do you do 50 50 now, especially if the child's going to school. In another city. So there's some challenges around that for sure. And like you said, abuse does get weaponized at times, and unfortunately in my experience, you only have 10 to 20 minutes to speak before a judge. So that's not enough time to get through all the details. This is where. The courts will often delegate their responsibility to parenting coordinators or mediators or arbitrators to ensure that the matter's getting the amount of attention it deserves, because there's so many details, you're not gonna cover that in an affidavit or 20 minutes. And how do you even discern? What's truth, what's not? Often there's multiple sides to the story. Doesn't mean one person's always telling the truth. There's the truth is somewhere in the middle. So there's that, and I think Par partially men often get the challenge is who's the best fit? Who should the child be with? By default, it always goes to the mom. So that's part of, yeah, that's really unfortunate. Yeah. That's part of the challenge. And, and again, abuse can happen on both sides, right? Men can be abusive. Women can be abusive too. One is more talked about than the other. One is more obvious than the other. Emotional abuse, psychological abuse is very hard to discern and determine, and you obviously need experts to be able to talk through that. So then you need expert witnesses. In these cases as well that can speak for a judge and present all the details of how some of the other less obvious forms of abuse are taking place. And, and then cost, right? So how do you afford, like if you're gonna hire a lawyer, they're charging you by the hour and just to get a document prepared can eat up a thousand, you know, thousands of dollars. So at what point do you determine is it even worth the fight? And especially if someone I and I, I'm, I'm speaking through experience too, there's all these hurdles I had to grapple with myself is at what point do I decide to move forward with my life? At what point do I start thinking about myself? At what point do I start looking at financially? This is just getting ridiculous. So these are all the challenges that come up, uh, for men, and I've seen all kinds of struggles. Come up. Mm-hmm. So, so, yeah. Well, and that financial concern ends up really stacking on people. So if it's 50 50, most of the time there's not as much alimony or child support. Yes. If they were fairly equivalent partners. But what I see happen a lot is when a guy loses access to 50 50. Now he's paying extra money to support the children, which he should. Right? Like they're his kids. That's fine. Yes. But that extra financial burden makes the likelihood of getting quality legal support. Mm-hmm. Even less likely. And I think Colorado instituted, I think it's a good law out here, or practice, I'm not sure which it is, where if someone reopens a parenting agreement in court. The losing party pays the bills. Mm-hmm. For everybody that goes. And I think while that's rough on guys having to make that call of to whether they can afford it or not, I do think it stops more of the frivolous lawsuits that people like to throw around and make people try to actually co-parent together. I think that's the problem, right? When we're talking about big systems like that, the system's trying to take care of the child first, which is exactly what we want to doing. Yes. But since it's a system, it's really good at handling the middle of the bell curve. Right. The kind of common families where it's a little disrupted, there's some antagonism between the couple, but they're both really trying for the kids. And if tho if that, if all that's happening, the courts do really well. Yes, in my experience, absolutely. It's when you get to the outliers that everything gets really messy and really hard. I agree. From a co-parenting perspective, if both parents are on the same page, they agree, you know, they wanna manage the wellbeing of the children. And how can they put their differences aside then? Absolutely. In, in some cases I've seen, they don't even go to court. They just have a quick mediation. They decide how to split the assets and off they go and they sign an agreement and they figure out parenting plans and schedules. Those are the best outcomes. Right. So absolutely the, the system does is in place for those types of situations. And I would, like I said, argue. You don't even need the system in, in those situations. If both parties can work it out and minimize the stress and costs for each other and recognize that, okay, at the end of the day, whatever we save is can help our children, can help us. It's just like you said, in those outlying situations, which happen more often than not. As you can appreciate seeing some men coming through, uh, I've seen it as well. It it's frequent and maybe they're coming for help because they are dealing with. Those types of situations, and some of the ones that are having an easier time at it aren't necessarily seeking help and aren't dealing with the same level of stressors. Well, I think that's the complicated thing about being a clinician. I always have to keep in mind that the guys I'm seeing aren't necessarily in the bell curve for these things. Yeah. Right. If somebody's coming in for mental health care, I've always got to try to remember the perspective of what the norms are, and I certainly found it really hard during my divorce. Right. We didn't have children, but we went through a divorce. Mm-hmm. And I remember people asking me like, how did that go for you? And after 10 years of watching the variation of the ways it can go, I don't know. I've seen everything from like couples hugging around the co-parenting agreement with the mediator and the kids and everybody crying. They're so happy to emergency room visits, jail time and hospitalizations. And so I'm like, I hear somewhere like I don't, I don't know. Yeah. I think the, the biggest thing I see within the 50 50 custody that's moving it forward is there's a growing appreciation and respect from the public mm-hmm. Around the different avenues for care through a divorce. So the parenting coaches, uh, good mediators are worth their weight in gold. What are you finding are helping people out where you are and get to that 50 50 custody if it starts to get lost? I think overall trying to remember what's in the best interest of the child. Now, that's very simplistic on the surface, but unfortunately people do get lost. Their egos get in the way. They are hurt and they want to hurt the other parent. Yeah, I think there's many reasons why things can get in the way and prevent the 50 50 scenario. It's just, again, trying to talk through people. If they are feeling like they're getting off track, it's bringing them back and talking about, okay, what's in the best interest of the child? How do you want to role model for your children too? Right? And at the end of the day, if there's gonna be animosity between yourself and your ex spouse, the children are the ones that are gonna get affected the most because they're gonna have to pick up on, they're gonna pick up on it, but then they also have to feel like they're walking on eggshells, not knowing. Which side to take, what to say, what are they not allowed to say? And that can be tough. And it doesn't matter how old the child is or the children are any age, that can be tough, whether they're in in their youth or they're in their adolescence, that can cause a lot of rift. And unfortunately, people don't see the bigger picture in those situations because as these children get older, they're gonna have conflicting relationships with the parents. Well, right. They're not gonna be growing O up and saying, oh yeah, that was, you handled that really well, dad, or You did a great job, mom. It's like, no, you guys couldn't figure it out and look how it's affected me. Yeah, I see the, I see that quite a bit and it's funny you mention that it, it can hurt a child at any age. I've worked with clients in their thirties and forties that their parents go through a divorce and it's really hard. Because it's a fundamental relationship and cornerstone of your life, and it's not your relationship, it's not your marriage. But that still hurts at all ages. I think of course. What's what I think usually helps the guys that I'm working with reduce some of the expressed animosity, at least, is reminding them that when they critique the other parent in front of the kids, that that's half of the kid. Yes. Like if you're the biological parents and you're talking trash about your ex-spouse. That kid feels the parts of themselves getting attacked by their parent. Yeah. And between that and just normalizing that divorces are contentious, no good marriage ends in divorce, it makes sense that you've got some animosity. It makes sense that you wanna take some things back. It makes sense that you're feeling these big feelings. It's just doing the adult thing and any feeling is a reasonable feeling. Your actions, though, you're absolutely responsible for, yeah. Just to kind of add to that, I did come across this paper where they talked exactly about what you mentioned, where the child, it affects the child's self-esteem and self-worth because exact for that reason. Because they know they are part of that parent. So if the other parents talking negatively about. The other parent, it's like, oh, okay, well what does that mean about me? And, and yes, children do internalize that and it shows up and there's been research around it in terms of how it's affects their self-esteem and self-worth. Yeah, I can really do some major damage. I've got a number of clients where that's part of their story. Mm-hmm. And where their anxiety, their depression comes from, was the antagonism. From the parent, yes. To the other parent and taking it out on them while they were there. The other thing I think that adds to that, that I'll be interested, I'm gonna look around and see if I can find some research to back this up, but anecdotally what I see in my practice a lot is if it's like a heteronormative couple, if you've got the mom and the dad. If it's a boy child, the mom often starts to put the boy child into the roles that the father had been in. And if it's a girl child at home, the father starts to follow the same patterns they followed with their spouse, and it's always. Like I always love it when I can catch it in the room 'cause it's an easy one to fall into, right? As a family system, those spaces are gonna be filled, but that is tragically damaging. Mm-hmm. Parenting a child is one of the, the harder things that come outta divorce. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean it would make sense, right? Because now the child is feeling responsible for something that's not their job. Right. And that's putting a lot of pressure on. Again, it doesn't matter what age. Child is, but that's putting a lot of pressure on them. Well, yeah. And just if, and particularly if there's multiple children involved, the oldest is going to be pushed into some parentified roles. Yes. Just because you all probably struggled together to do all of this. Now that you're solo with them, whenever you're with them, it's even harder. Yep. To a point. Yeah. And I would, I, I think the other thing I would add here, and something I. I like to encourage people is get the help you need. Go see someone. Mm-hmm. Right. Don't burden your child with it or don't bring it up in front of them that, oh, I'm struggling, or whatever's going on for you. Uh, try to seek the appropriate help so you're emotionally regulated and you can be there for your child.'cause they're going through their own experience. Uh, I see that a lot too, where parents will like just start. Sharing things which can be considered inappropriate given the age of children, right? At the end of the day, based on what we know now, the brain hasn't fully developed until the mid twenties. So you just think about what you're putting the child through. It's not matters they should be exposed to. I think the, the hardest part about that is, is that we will seek community and sharing no matter what. And this is where I see so many guys struggle, is that usually in a heteronormative couple, it's the wife that's doing the social management. Mm. And so the guy tends to lose more community than the wife when the divorce happens. Yeah. And then he's now 30, 40, 50 and doesn't know how to build one. And that's when those inappropriate disclosures start to land on the kids, because who else is he talking to? And I love it when they come in and they talk to me about those things to get it off of them. But I love it even more when they find some community, like join a softball league, get to a gym. I don't care. Get around other guys and other people that you can tell your story to people that you can trust with it. People that'll like let you vent about what she did with the custody money. Mm-hmm. Right. Like whatever that is. Yeah. Get out with some other adults that respect you. Yes. Yeah. In my experience, what really helped me was joining a men's group. Mm-hmm. And in fact, I even start co-star one with a friend for that reason, especially during the pandemic, like things were up and down and then it was easy to isolate. And I think for all the reasons you're sharing, men tend to isolate more too, especially after a separation or divorce, if they've had. Common friends, you have like same social circle. Men will tend to isolate more. So there are other avenues, like you said, to find that community. And like I said, for me, men's group was helpful because there was large group of us, some of us were going through a divorce, some had gone through that. Mm-hmm. And, and then others were married. So you get different perspectives from men and, and that can help too. And then you don't feel like you're carrying that burden by yourself. Yeah. I, it's been so funny. So a dear friend of mine went through a divorce a year before mine happened, and so she was absolutely wonderful through that. Mm-hmm. Right. It was like she was helping me pick up the ball when everything was at its worst. And then a year goes by and sure enough, another friend gets a divorce and calls me, and now I'm. Like one year and my other friend's two years ahead. Right. And that normalization of the process and having people to talk through it and validate the experience. A therapist can't always do that. You know, we're, we're, you're paying us, we're, we're here to hear your experience. And a lot of therapists are bad and it'll validate anything. Yeah. Right. So it makes it hard to believe them. Your friends, though, that's an easier pitch for yourself. Mm-hmm. Helps you judge less. Yeah. And I think part of the struggle. Men also tend to face is the, the narrative they have is that I'm the only one going through this. Mm-hmm. And that's when having someone you can talk to who's been through it or being in a circle of other men, you can appreciate that. No. Like, I mean, obviously you're, what you're going through is unique to you, but at the end of the day, others have gone through it too. And then it doesn't feel like such a. A big monster that you're, you're facing, right? You can talk to other people and realize how they managed it, what were the tools that worked for them. So a lot of that community stuff, like you said, can happen just through conversation and realizing that you're not alone. Yeah. It's funny, the men's group thing, it, it, it consistently comes up right now. Yeah. Because guys are having such a hard time building out community that men's groups are, are really making a wonderful resurgence. We had on Jason Lang a few episodes ago to talk about how to build 'em. That's how he makes his living now. Yeah. And one of the things I love that he said was, it only takes two other guys. Yeah. All it takes is three of you deciding to be in the same place at the same time. With the same intention, and then naturally other people will gravitate towards it. But that's all a men group's needs is three people. Yeah. In fact, I would, it it for, for myself, it started with just two of us and then we just kind of put the word out within our network and, and then it slowly started growing from there. Mm-hmm. Our first session, we both brought a friend, so it was like four of us. Right. And same thing. That's great. That's how you get the ball rolling. Right. And it doesn't have to be. Something extraordinary or yeah, if you st start focusing on outcomes and have expectations, that's when you fall into that trap. And it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, I think it's hard. What's interesting to me too is I was thinking about this, there was some new data on postpartum stuff for guys and, and women, and the same things that work to prevent postpartum depression for women. Work for men, which is to be around people at the similar stage of what's happening as you, because so many things change so quickly in the first year of a divorce and the first year of a child, that it feels crazy 'cause everything got rocked. Yeah. And so at least if you have other people around you, ideally that are kind of where you are in it, but also that have been there and can be like, yeah man, that's normal. That's, you're okay. Yeah. No, I know you're not sleeping. Mm-hmm. Of course you're not sleeping. Yeah. It's okay. I think that we've really underestimated the impact of community and really, I, I think that, to be honest, is part of why the divorce rates are so high is that we put so much of what we need from community on a binary relationship. Yes. That it breaks it Absolutely, it's complex, right? Because when you have children, they take up a lot of time and you're busy. I, I have so many clients that. You have two or three children and then all, all three, or for example, all two are in activities. So you're just running around all day, not getting time for yourself, not getting real time with your spouse. And then when you do create space for the two of you as as a partners, then you're talking about the children or what needs to be done. So as much as your social. Gathering or social time is spent with each other and, and your children. You're not really creating any space for yourself and, and you're also not focusing on the relationship. So I see that too, that the relationship starts deteriorating over time too. And I have to remind some of my clients that, Hey, these, your kids are gonna grow up one day and they're gonna move out ideally. Then what's gonna happen? You do this, right? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. What's gonna happen to the relationship? And so many couples wake up and they're like, wow, I haven't really talked to you in the last 15 to 20 years. I think that's why the, I remember it was pretty early on. It was like two years in and I was starting to put together a slide deck around, uh, masculine stuff for some other clinicians. And it's those life transition points. Where all of a sudden everything gets shaken and all of a sudden you look around. So new kid, kid going to school, new job, new career, kid hitting adolescence, kid graduating kid, graduating college. These are all the inflection points. The divorce most often happens 'cause of exactly what you're talking about. They get to this point and then they look around like, wait, there's room. Who are you? I, I think this goes back into within the 50 50 divorce thing too, for guys is. The lessons we didn't learn while we were married, we can integrate after. Yes. And so I, I think with solo parenting that community becomes so much more important. Like you don't have a partner to scapegoat or fall back on. Yep. You've gotta figure out having some other people around your kid because you literally can't do it all, all the time. Yep. Yeah, I agree. And I think the other piece. SI, I mean I went through it too, so I'm not gonna be too harsh. I think everyone has to figure it out themselves. The tendency sometimes is to jump into another relationship because it's so hard. Yeah. For people to be alone. Even like men I talk to that are contemplating divorce, one of their biggest fears is being alone. And I think women also experience that. Women typically have a good social network and they can connect with others. But men for sure, definitely they, they struggle with that fear of being alone. So then the tendency is to jump into another relationship. And again, the same patterns keep coming up, right? Mm-hmm. So often my advice to people coming outta relationships is I had to learn the hard way. Is really spend that time to look at what you learned from the experience. It's not good or bad. It's, it's all a learning experience. What did you learn about yourself? What are the things that you need to improve on? And what type of partner do you want to be with? So, and unfortunately, a lot of that doesn't happen based on what I've observed and, and that would be my recommendation to people. I think that's because of the way that our society is framed it out. Um, when we broke dads off and made them providers and we handed handled all the emotional and social labor to women, we've really made men incapable socially on their own. And we're, we're starting to see that turn right. I, I think we as, as a community and the society are getting better about it, but Reeve's even talked about this in his book of men and boys, where middle-aged women don't need men. Middle-aged men absolutely need women. So within the courts, my view is all just guys. Right. That's all I'm working with anymore. Yeah. And I see what happens to them in court. Have you kind of been witness or found any writing or research around the different struggles that fathers and mothers tend to have in the courts and what that looks like as far as like the split and what they're struggling with? Well, yeah, I mean, very similar to yourself. I would say most of my work is with men, so I don't hear the other side of it, but. Anecdotally, what I've heard is financial issues. So men won't pay enough or they won't pay at all. Um, and that could be a burden for a lot of women. Again, we're speaking generally, right? Often. Mm-hmm. In most of the relationships, men are earning more based on what I've observed. So then there's that disparity, and if child support isn't being made appropriately, then that can cause. A burden. And then again, how do you pay for a lawyer to go after the other person? So, so that could be definitely a challenge. Again, I would argue different forms of abuse play out on both sides. So that's definitely there. And um, it, it's interesting, right? So if there's substance abuse, I know we kind of talked about it before you and I jumped on the recording, but if there is substance abuse, that's also tough. To bring forward. Yeah. And divorce being the second hardest thing you can go through if somebody's got some kind of problem, yes. That's pretty likely to come up again through the divorce process. Yeah, yeah. Or it can trigger it too. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, I mean it, it does, it is slightly different, but I would assume for the most part there could be overlap in some of the challenges women experience as well. It's been interesting. So I've, I've been lucky in that I've worked with a few stay at home fathers now. Mm. And they're almost all veterans, which I think is great. Yeah.'cause their masculinity is bulletproof. Right. They're like, yeah, okay. Whatever. Like, yeah, I'm gonna be with my kid. Yeah. You're, you're not phasing me. And what's interesting is I see the same patterns play out during the divorce based on who's earning more than the gender. And so the, the reality is through a divorce is the person who is the moneymaker is usually the one that's managed the finances and is now watching a huge hemorrhage occur. Yeah. In their financial plan and what they plan for their family. And so they naturally will be drawn to reach for control, which is where abuse lives. The minute that we're doing something for control, yes, we're moving into that lane. But it is interesting how the courts don't see it as much when it's a stay at home father. Hmm. Like I've, I've had to do this with three different clients now, where because of the financial worries that the partners had. They moved out because they're the guy, and that's the assumption, which is weird to me when they were the ones that were the homemaker. Mm-hmm. They end up in a one bedroom apartment that they can barely afford and there's a delay in whatever child support, whatever support they're supposed to get while they figure out how to build a life back again. And for all of them, I've had to say, flip the gender on this. What would a court see? Yep. You've got three kids, you've got a couch and a bed. What would a court see? If this was your situation, knowing how much your, your ex makes. Mm-hmm. And it's been interesting 'cause I have empathy for the, for women on the side of that because again, it's that like I'm the financial responsibility. I'm the one providing this is a huge rupture in what we've provided. I'm so afraid I'm gonna lock it down. Yep. And I think that that's the really hard thing to get. People to see in their partner.'cause during a divorce you're so hurt. Yep. It's really hard to have empathy for where those desires are coming from. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's hard to trust the other person and yeah. You've just broken the biggest promise of your life. Well, and then the other thing I, I don't know if you've experienced this in, in the work you do, but, uh, a lot of the times it comes with a sacrifice to the lifestyle you had. Mm-hmm. In many cases. Right. So now, like you, we were talking about whether there's alimony or child support. You're not bringing in the same that you were before and the other person is getting half of, or close to half in most cases, of what, what's coming in as well. So now you have to basically, you're basically splitting the pie down the middle, right? So that comes with some sacrifices. So how do people cope with that? I see a lot of people struggle with, you know, you have a certain standard of living and now you're having to dial it back. Well, and I see that be extra hard for guys when it comes to getting back into the dating pool. Yeah. Because for, for guys in the dating pool, showcasing that you make a living is part of your ability to date. Yep. It, it just is like we, we date by class if we can. And so having to take that step down and then look around and be like, wait, I've gotta be desirable. And if since it's a guy, they have a stronger urge to fill that space much faster. That it's just like this double hit on the money parts. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the big thing I see, or I shouldn't say I see it, I hear about it from colleagues because I do a lot of work around domestic violence and so most of the colleagues I have that work in, that tend to work with women, tend to work on women. Mm-hmm. And that financial abuse and control is by far the thing they deal with the most. But money's always a key factor. Divorce and I, I think like now that I'm talking about it, it makes a lot of sense since marriage initially was a financial contract more than anything else. Yeah. Property and children, no promise love until what, like a hundred years ago? Yeah. I mean it's, it's definitely a huge factor. And I also see the other side of it where people resist going through a divorce because of the financial implications. That's, and then they end up staying in the relationship for that reason. Yeah, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of, apparently by class, right? The middle class is most likely to get divorced, and people in the lower class, they literally can't afford to live in two separate households. Right? And so they're pretty likely to move to being roommates just because of the financial realities of like, we got two kids to raise and neither of us have enough money to do this on our own. I guess we're stuck here. And that is just. That's always tragic when I see it. Mm-hmm. Because there's no room for healing when you're underfoot like that. Oh, yeah. And, and the conflict keeps just repeating itself. Right. There's no resolution, there's no answer. Right. Like there's no div divorce isn't an answer, so it's like, okay, well, but you also don't have the tools to be able to figure things out and work on it. Yeah, I think it's going back to that, uh, that old study that used to say, what was it, $70,000? But I think now it's up to like$250,000 is the happiness line on money. And what they don't always talk about is how when you're under a certain amount of money, your happiness is absolutely exponentially destroyed, all the way down to homelessness. Yeah. When you see families go through these things that have limited resources. Do you see them more often figure out how to work it through it without the courts? Yeah, for sure. But I think, again, there's a lot of variations, right? So again, using the bell curve perspective for the most in the middle, yes. But then when they're, the financial resources aren't there, there could be a lot of manipulation also taking place and abuse and control. Because they know one party may know that, okay, the other person can't get a lawyer and come after me. So figuring that out too. Right. So there's a lot of that too, uh, that happens. Mm-hmm. But yeah, for the most part, if you don't have a choice now there are like pro bono legal assistance, but that comes with other issues. So people do. Seek it and that that's available at least where I, where I live, that if your income is below a certain number, uh, annually, then you can seek those resources as well. The main problem I see with those out here is they're non-profit driven. Mm-hmm. And so about every two or three years, they'll be a good one. Yeah. And then the person doing it burns out after about six months or a year. Yeah. And then you gotta wait until the next one comes around. Yeah, because there's always good people trying to go do good things. There's just too much to do. Oh, yeah. And it's not easy. Right. The complexity just grows from there too. Uh, I've had, I was working in a non-for-profit for my practicum and I had a lot of clients going through divorce and they were using, here we call it legal aid, and they were frustrated again, what can you do? If you can't afford it, what other options do you have? There's a lot of radical acceptance that has to happen. Mm-hmm. Through divorce proceedings. When you hit those walls and the courts made its call, this is how it is. I have to figure out how to live with this. Yes, and that's hard. There's a reason why it's called radical acceptance and why people go to therapy to find it. Yeah. It's brutal, especially when it comes to kids. I think that the, I love working with dads because dads have the most motivation for change in most cases. Right. Guys are pretty good when they've got a real reason that side of themselves to connect and do things. Yeah. But that's a double-edged sword in these situations where that, that feeling of failure, that feeling that you're. Not with your kids when you need to be, that you're not providing for them in the way that you need to be, that you're separated from them in a way that you don't want to be. It can get really brutal. Yeah. The acceptance part is the hardest for so many people. Because I think part of the struggle, and I can speak from personal experience too, is you know, the system's designed for justice, but it can be completely unjust. So how do you reconcile that? And so many people. Struggle to come back from that, right? It's like a form of trauma. So you're traumatized now and you still have to live your life. You have to continue on, you still have responsibilities in whatever shape or form they may play out. And now you're, you're like, okay, well how do I move on with my life? And how do I put myself back in a situation where I may get married again? And there's so much fear around that. Again, I can only speak from the perspective of men because they feel like, oh, I've gotta be extra cautious and I can't trust another woman, or whatever narrative's playing out for them. But there, there's so many implications that come out of that as well. Yeah, I think that's the, the tragic part of it all is going through the pain of a divorce. You have to learn some boundaries. Yep. Or you're doomed to find the same person with the same problems and do the same things, but dialing in the difference between having boundaries that are healthy and being entire closed off to connection. Yes. Is so tricky. Mm-hmm. And what I find is guys tend to oscillate between all in or all out. Right. Either they're completely isolated, they're only doing hookups. They're, they're not wanting to find a, a person, or they're so desperately seeking somebody that they break themselves on the other end and make the same mistakes. And finding that balance is just, you know, it's like walking a tightrope. That's why time coming back to that point, time is so crucial to mm-hmm. Not only let yourself heal from whatever you're coming out of, but also. Figuring yourself out and really getting to know yourself. Like you said, you know, that question I think is powerful. Would you date yourself? And if the answer's no, then okay, well how are you gonna get yourself there? And that time can do wonders in that regard. And often people will ask me when they're coming out of a relationship, how long should I, you know, should I wait a year? Should I wait a year and a half? And I'm like, you have to wait as long as it takes you. There's no timeline. Everyone's process and journey is different, but really committing to it. And I think that's, for me, something that was fundamental is when I finally decided that, okay, I need to take this seriously and I really need to work on myself and focus on myself. And I learned so much and it brought me in such a better place. So I am remarried now. Congratulations. And completely different experience and coming at it from a different perspective too. And yeah, so. Time did play a huge role for me. You can always see the difference when people take the moment. Like it, it was really interesting for me in that I, I hit kind of the six month mark after the divorce and was starting to feel like, okay, maybe it's time to start. And then I had this realization that since I've been 14 years old, there's never been a point in my life where I wasn't seeking the validation of a woman. And that maybe if I do that right now. I'm gonna do the same things right now. And so I had to choose to be alone for seven months, which is the longest I've been without a woman since I was 14. Yep. And it's brutal. Yep. It right. But I think the other thing that helps too, and where guys really struggle is it's not just the time. You've gotta have time reflected through people that care about you. Yes. Because what I also see is if you put a timeline on it, they're like, okay, I'm gonna wait a year. Guys just go home and dissociate out. When the kids aren't in the house, they jump in front of the tv, they pop on a video game, they have a few beers, whatever it is, to just numb out until the next time their kids are home and nothing moves. Then yeah, you can sit in that dissociation forever if you choose to. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned for you since the age of 14. For me it was like since the beginning of time. It started with my mom seeking validation and it carried on and I had to break that chain. So, uh, that took a good two years for me at least, to unwind all of that patterning and figure out a new way of being. And yeah, it was, it was great. I got to the point, so again, speaking from personal experience where I came to this realization that. Okay. If I meet someone, great. If I don't, I'm still gonna be happy. Like I had built a life at that time where I was, I had found creative outlets. I was doing projects for myself. I was engaged in different sports, and yeah, I was just finding new things to do. I was traveling by myself. I figured that out. That was, I remember going on my first solo trip, it was, there were so, so many nerves around that. Then I enjoyed it, and then I kept doing it. So all these things I started building into my life and I was like, yeah, I could do this by myself. And that acceptance piece was the biggest shift. And then I was like, okay, this is great. This is a good place to be. Yeah. I think it goes back to like, one of the themes that's come up a lot is when we go through the final questions. A lot of guys, part of their masculinity is the violence, right? The like physical aggression part of things. And the consistent story that I think it's come up for like three or four of the guests now is that. The minute they decided they were willing to be violent, violent stopped. Right. The minute that they were like, no, I, I'm gonna learn how to do this and the next person that tries to hurt me, I'm ready to stop and I will with some force, all of a sudden nobody's bothering them anymore. I feel like that connection point where if you can have a life where you look around, you feel connected right. Through some kinds of community and you know how to spend time in your own head, which is hard. Yes.'cause there's a lot of ways to avoid that. In fact, ev almost everything in our modern world is designed to make it so you don't have to do that Exactly. And then you find the right kind of people for where you're at and what you wanna build. I'm not looking forward to that part of my journey right now. Yeah. Well, it takes time, so give yourself the gift and see what comes out on the other end. Oh, it'll, it'll be fun. Well, so I, I guess the kinda one of the last questions I wanna ask about what you've seen within the court situation is if there were two or three different supports, you mentioned a men's group. Mm-hmm. Either founding one or joining one. What are the other things that you see that tend to help guys going through the divorce and the custody battles? Yeah, I think therapy is huge. Uh, we've talked about it, right? So mm-hmm. Um, definitely seeking that out where. Just having an outlet. One of the things I've realized, it's hard to get honest feedback. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm grateful that throughout my experience I had people around me, including my, uh, therapist, who was able to give me honest feedback or just guide me. And it doesn't have to be harsh, right. It could just be like, Hey, maybe you need to look at it from this lens or this perspective. And I can vividly remember two or three moments. Like seven or eight years ago where I needed to hear that. Yeah. Just to like snap out of it. Right. Because again, you can get, get into that righteous anger and feel mm-hmm. Like you're being treated unfairly, all of that. Right. And then you can start falling into that loop. But sometimes you need to snap at it and be like, okay, this has happened, but what am I going to do with it now? And it's like any, yeah. Experience in life. You can fall on your face and you can say, okay, I can lay here and just complain about it or get back up and dust myself off and get to work and mm-hmm. So having people that you trust that are willing to give you that honest feedback and therapists can fill that role. I had some, I had to work through four or five until I found the one that was willing to really provide that candid feedback to me. So that's definitely another. Support system I would encourage people to consider and think about as well. And then another resource is seeking out mentors. So outside of mm-hmm. A men's group. What my experience with men's group was, there's a specific demographic in terms of age that are in that space. So what I, what really helped me was seeking out individuals. A lot older than me. Not just because of age, but because of wisdom and life experiences. Mm-hmm. And by just talking to them and, and opening up and having a back and forth, they would share Yeah. Some of the things they're navigating at their, their current chapter in life. And, and then same. And just having someone again, point out your blind spots or impart some wisdom. My general thing is we live in a world today that we tend to dispense with the wisdom that comes from experience. Right? That's why I've shared this before too. I love reading biographies of men, you know, from ancient times or just that have past that did something with their lives and accomplished something. And it doesn't have to be extraordinary either, but just. Learning about how they navigated these tough situations and what kept them grounded, what kept them resilient, can be powerful. And sometimes just talking to someone and having those conversations can be helpful. But because it goes back to, like I said, you feel so alone when you're in this space at times and just ha knowing that you can talk to someone who's been through so many other things and they're saying, yeah, this. Two shall pass. And that may seem like, okay, sure, whatever, but it's true. You do get through it. Yeah. Well, and I think that's the thing that we're most missing in community is that there is a point of connection at all seasons of life with all seasons of life. And at every one of them, you do better having the others to reflect off of. And so you're absolutely right in getting some diversity into the groups that you. You spread what to include? Age. Yes. Right. Which I, I do see really hard. Most people are kinda like, we want people that look like us. We want people that, you know, my buddy that I relate to, I'm gonna start this with him. And that's great, but then you don't bring anybody other than guys like you. I think that's brilliant. Yeah. I mean, the specific mentors, I mean, I don't even know if they consider themselves mentors, but there's two or three, uh, men that I've been talking to for the past four or five years. They're in their sixties. They've been through it all. There's so much, so much to absorb from them. I just love talking to them because there's so much gold there, right? And and they don't really know that. But for me, I'm just like sitting there just excited. To hear what they have to share and what they have to talk about. Well, I've been lucky in my career in that I've, I've worked with a number of older men. Now. I did not expect my father's generation to come to therapy, but I've worked with several of them now, and you should tell them all those guys that come in that are listless, if they can find a way to mentor, if they can find a way to bring that wisdom forward and be of use to people trying to do things their quality of life, skyrockets. We need things to do. And when you hit a certain point where your body's given out, that's what you got is your words. That's it. So I wanna be respectful of the time and I think, uh, I think this is gonna transition pretty well because we've already been really generous with your story. Mm-hmm. So I don't think, uh, I don't think it's out of our way to get a little bit more in depth about you. And it's been really wonderful to see people respond to these and how much normalization is happening for guys through these stories. So I really appreciate you being willing to come on and answer 'em. Yeah, absolutely. So the first one is, what's the truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12? That's remained true to today. So I will definitely get into details, but, uh, the masculine protects and not in the way often we think about it and, and sometimes that. You see the the toxic side of it too. And unfortunately it's gotten labeled as toxic, but protective in the sense that no matter what, you can kind of hold it together. So what I like to tell men is emotions are important. I think a lot of the times we get socialized or conditioned that you need to put the emotions down, bury them. Don't talk about them, but they are important. You need to be able to. Give space for your emotions, but do not be emotional. Right. Be regulated. And I think there are gonna be times, and I've had to learn that myself, where things are gonna be really, really tough. Mm-hmm. And there may be a time where your family needs you, or your spouse needs you, your children need you, whatever the case may be, you need to be there regulated, showing up. Being that protective figure that they can rely on. And that's something I learned as a kid, and I still believe it to be true. No, I love the, the sense of safety that the protector role comes in from a, from an emotional end, and I think that's, that regulation point of yours is just spot on. Tell us about a time where pursuing your masculinity hurt you. Many times, I think most of my, my teens, my twenties. Even parts of my thirties, just being bravado, being the alpha or trying to prove yourself that you can do something. And yeah, a lot of times felt flat on my face and obviously I didn't learn from earlier experiences, but uh, yeah, I think just, you don't have to be the tough guy, right. Nor do you have to give off the impression. And I think that was definitely. Something I learned, and again, you get conditioned a certain way through life playing sports or being a cer around a certain group of kids. And that's what I picked up. Uh, I was obviously compensating for my own insecurities. And then when that acceptance came, things shifted. Well, I mean, you're such a small unphysical guy. It makes sense that you were drawn to that lane. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the bluster of it all is, is. Really tied to the idea that as we age as men, part of what we're looking for in our expression is an area of excellence. We're looking for somewhere to be seen as competent, and it's so easy to let bluster corrupt that when we're feeling away. Yep. And I, I, I think you're one of the first guys to acknowledge that it, it's happening. It's not, it's not, this isn't a thing you did when you were 20. It's a thing you did when you were 2030 all the way to now. Yeah. I think that's really normalizing, right? We, we tend to break in the same ways. We just get better at the landing and picking ourselves back up. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it still comes up and I have to be fully aware this isn't about me, so why do I need to react? Just that little awareness has been helpful. Yeah. Knowing what's happening so you can respond is always tricky. It's beautiful when you line it up. Yeah. So we always like to go out on the high note. Tell us about a time when your masculinity empowered you. I think around the, just being, being able to show the emotion and, and coming to terms with that. It's okay. And. It's not only empowered me, but it's empowered others because by being vulnerable, I'm giving others the permission to be vulnerable. And I don't like to say that it, oh, I'm giving them permission, but it's creating that safety in a room of men or around other men, whether it's my father or my brother, my son, whatever the case may be. That vulnerability. I like to say it always starts with one, and if one person is able to demonstrate it, then it takes the pressure off others. And I think being comfortable in my masculinity that I can be emotional, I can shed tears, and that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with it is giving the others the permission that you can shed a tear too. And that's okay. Like no one's gonna judge you because I did it already. So. You see how everybody responded? Yeah. I said something hard. I cried a little bit. I didn't break in half. We can do it. Yeah. I think that's the, the beauty of when guys find their emotional expression. Right. Is the recognition that I can have it without breaking. And I think that's why so many guys avoid it. And I know you see it in the groups and you see it in your practice where most guys are so afraid of not knowing how to express that they're terrified of when it happens. Yeah. And so I, I'm really glad that you're there given that to guys's such a powerful thing and something we've been painfully missing for the last few generations. Yeah. For sure. Well man, thanks for putting all the good work you do into the world. I'm really glad that you came on and we gotta have another conversation. Yeah, no, you too. It's been fun ride having these conversations with you and we've obviously covered so many different angles, but, uh, always grateful to be invited to another podcast and, and share. So thank you for creating this space. Thanks much man, and that's our conversation with Han Daniel on Family Court. Hopefully this has normalized some things. It's given some ideas on what guys are going through. You've heard how overwhelming the systems can be, how they often feel very stacked against fathers, but you've also heard how men are dealing with that, the successful ways and patterns that they find to be the men and fathers. They want to be through that process, and I hope you take advantage of that, whether it's therapy. Whether it's peer support, group support, legal support, whatever you can get to that you need, please don't go through these things alone. As always, we like to fact check everything around here, and this time there was more than normal and it was of course, mostly my fault. If Han's really good at what he does, there's some things he said that need a little bit of clarification, but he wasn't wrong. I was straight wrong. So that's fun. So Colorado is not a legally mandated state for 50 50. It's best interest of the child and the courts accept that 50 50 is best for the child, but it's not in any kinda legal mandate. I think I just see it happen enough with successful divorces that I thought it was. The reality is, is only three states in the union right now have a legal mandate on it. Kentucky, Arkansas, and Florida. That's it. Everybody else is mostly best interest of the child, and sometimes that doesn't mean 50 50. So all these things are gonna be really dependent on the county you're in, on the state you're in, and the country you're in. If you're listening internationally. The other thing is we talked about false allegations. I think where some of this got is I'm more likely to see them as a clinician because the guys that are really, really hurting come to me and some of those really ugly divorces, I'm seeing more of it than a lot of people do. There's studies on it that are all over the place. The one that was the most reputable I could find said about 12% of family court proceedings have abuse allegations, but I also found other studies that were anywhere from 2% to over 30%. The important thing to remember is it's not the norm. It happens, it's ugly when it happens, and it's unfortunate. We always wanna make sure the best interest that children are cared for, and it's tricky. So please don't go in thinking that's gonna be the norm or something that you're necessarily guaranteed to deal with. That wasn't my intention, and hopefully the numbers help give you an idea on where that is and how complicated it can be depending on where you're at. We also talked about financial abuse and how that happens for financial abuse. We know that it is generally happening from men to women, not the other way around, but that's gonna follow norms around who's making the money and who's managing the money. So as women outpace a lot of guys, it's gonna be more and more likely that that power dynamic shifts. Because it's an easy pattern to fall into. If you've been managing the money, if you've been controlling the money, taking this huge hit during a divorce makes it complicated, makes you wanna reach for some control. Remember, don't do that. Get the help that you need to do the divorce. Well, and the last one that needs some clarification is that court hearings are brief. There's no explicit time that nationally we can say is what's happening. 15 minutes isn't a bad average, but there's not really good data on it. We do know it's gonna be short though. And we do know it's gonna be complicated. If you're walking through family court like we talked about earlier, please remember you're not alone. Get the support and help that you need. Reach out to the people that see you and love you and will help you be the man you wanna be through this process. It's gonna ground you and you're really gonna need that. This stuff is brutal and hard and it hurts. And while you're watching this, it struck a chord. Please send it to a dad that has need. We really wanna get this information out as far and as wide as we can so we can help out as many guys as we can. And I need your help. I need your help to share this and get this word out. Please. If you found it useful and you know someone who's gonna find it useful, share it with them. And that's our episode for today. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen. We'll see you next time when we talk about how to live alone. Well. We'll see you there.