Masculinity After the Uniform Comes Off (No One Talks About This)

Being a man today often means carrying responsibility without a clear map for meaning. Work used to define everything. Service, provision, and endurance were enough. Now, many men are left asking who they are when the old scripts no longer hold. They often wonder what strength is supposed to look like in a world that’s changed.

In this episode, host Timothy sits down with military veteran and entrepreneur Scott DeLuzio. They have a grounded, wide-ranging conversation about masculinity, service, leadership, and identity after uniform. Drawing from military culture, entrepreneurship, fatherhood, and generational change, they explore how men are shaped by systems that prize competence and toughness and what happens when those systems fall away.

You’ll hear us break down:

• The military’s masculine culture: Why structure, hierarchy, and shared mission accelerate growth and how that culture can both build and limit men.
• Combat vs. support roles: The unspoken hierarchy inside the military, why most service members are enablers rather than fighters, and how that reframes masculine worth.
• Teamwork and leadership after service: Why veterans often succeed in entrepreneurship by rejecting the “do it all yourself” myth.
• Scarcity vs. abundance thinking: How competition for attention and status undermines men, and why collaboration creates more room for everyone.
• The provider identity collapse: How our grandfathers’ work-based purpose shaped masculinity and why that model no longer sustains modern men.
• Fatherhood and overprotection: How today’s parents have created safer childhoods, and the unintended cost of limiting failure, risk, and resilience.
• Letting boys struggle well: Why strength is built through responsibility, exposure, and earned competence, not constant rescue.

We highlight the tension men feel between duty and meaning, protection and growth, independence and belonging. This conversation doesn’t offer easy answers or nostalgia. It provides something more durable: a clearer understanding of how men are formed, what they’ve lost, and how they can rebuild purpose without abandoning strength.

The American Masculinity Podcast™ is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and men’s advocate.
Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, growth, and how men can show up better — as partners, leaders, and friends.
We focus on grounded tools, not yelling or clichés. If you have questions or want a tool for something you're wrestling with, leave a comment or send a message — your feedback shapes what we build next.
Note: While this doesn’t replace therapy, it might help you notice something worth exploring.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:09 Scott’s Military Background & Why He Served
• 6:47 Losing Soldiers After Coming Home
• 10:09 Military Lessons That Shape Masculinity
• 15:42 The Drive On Podcast & Serving Veterans
• 21:30 Teamwork, Purpose & Shared Burden
• 28:09 Civilian Life, Identity Loss & Finding Meaning
• 34:40 Leadership, Intensity & Emotional Regulation
• 42:09 Fatherhood, Repair & Knowing When to Switch Gears
• 48:24 Integrity, Follow-Through & Masculine Credibility
• 54:32 The Truth About Masculinity Learned Before Age 12

Transcript

Scott: 0:00

Home was more dangerous than war for the guys that I served with. I felt like I needed to do something about all of that. And they hear these stories and they think to themselves, okay, well maybe there is some hope for me.

Narration: 0:10

Scott deluzio is an infantry veteran Afghanistan war survivor and the host of the Drive On Podcast where he spent six years interviewing hundreds of veterans about what happens after the uniform comes off.

Tim: 0:23

How do you see the ones that make the transition from those military lessons to civilian life? What are the things they carry forward? So act two of their life,

Scott: 0:33

a lot of guys have trouble with that transition, and the trouble that they have is losing the sense of purpose or identity as a service member and the guys who do it well find a replacement for that purpose rather quickly. That's the thing that they need to make that transition a little bit more successful. If you don't have that thing that you feel like is giving you a sense of purpose or meaning.

Tim: 0:58

What kinda lessons and masculinity come outta the military that can just be generally useful.

Scott: 1:03

Having an environment where you can make a mistake and not have to be catastrophic is important as well. And I think the military gives you those types of opportunities as well through all the training that you do.

Narration: 1:16

And what's lesson two?

Scott: 1:17

Those who do dip their toes on the entrepreneur. World and those who have been in the military, I found have been more successful. When you're able to kind of let go and let other people take the wheel for certain things that can go further. When you have a group of people working with you, I wanna be a dad, not a sergeant. Like how do we do that? Personally, when I got out of the military, I struggled with a lot. I had a heavy weight on the identity as a soldier, and I tried to do all the things in my normal civilian life. Being a dad, being a husband, I tried to do that with the same intensity that I did anything in the military and that doesn't work.

Tim: 2:01

One thing that you wish more civilian guys knew from the lessons you got of the military that we haven't covered. Hey Scott, man, thanks for so much for coming on. Yeah, you bet. Uh, really glad to be here. Thanks for, for, uh, having me. Yeah, man, I'm really glad we found each other and I got to come on the Drive on podcast and talk to you about all the veteran stuff. Man, I, I love the work you've been doing. I'm really excited to kinda share a little bit more of it more broadly. Sure. So, can you, uh, tell the guys listening, you know, what your, your background was when you serve?

Scott: 2:30

Yeah, sure. So I joined the Connecticut Army National Guard. Um, I was, uh, in college when nine 11 happened. Um, kind of got my, the idea of joining the military, you know, around that time everybody was patriotic. Uh, you know, fever was going across the country and a lot of people were knocking down the doors to get into the recruiter's office. But I, I decided to stay in college and finish my degree at that point. Um, I knew myself if I didn't finish what I started, I wasn't gonna go back and finish it. So I, I wanted to stick around and, and do that then. My younger brother, actually, he joined Vermont Army National Guard, uh, while he was still in college. And that was like the couple months after I graduated college. And so all of a sudden, like kind of overnight, my, my little brother who, you know, I'd beat him up in the backyard and we'd, we'd, we'd, you know, do all the things that brothers do, uh, you know, getting in trouble and all that kind of stuff. Um, you know, o overnight he, you know, became a soldier. And I was like, holy crap, this, that's, that's pretty amazing. Um, and then nine months or so later, I, I started hearing these reports in the news that the military was struggling to re meet their recruiting members. And I was like, where, where the hell are all these people who were like, knocking down the doors for the recruiter's office and like, where did all those people go? And I realized, well, crap, I was kinda one of those people and I still haven't done anything about it. So I said, well, I'm, you know, at that point I was still young enough, I was in my early twenties, and I, I said, you know, I, I'm young enough, I'm. I'm not in great shape, but that's, the army will figure that out. And, and so I was like, well, you know, why not me? So I, I'll, I'll join too. And, uh, so that, that's kind of how I got into, uh, the, the military, um, deployed to Afghanistan in 2010. Um, and, uh, you know, had kind of a interesting deployment. We can maybe get into some of that if, if you want a little bit later. But, um, you know, and then, uh, uh, came back home and the guys that I served with in, in my company, we, we all made it home from that deployment that there's no, uh, casualties from, from our, our company anyways. Um, and we got home and we started losing guys. Um, so it, it was like home was more dangerous than war for the guys that I served with. And that to me just was, was absolutely crazy. I mean, I, I came back with my own problems and, and things that I was dealing with, but, um. The fact that we lost multiple guys, like way more than, than you would've expected from, um, you know, just being home. And, um, and that, that to me just didn't make sense. So I, I said I, I felt like I needed to do something about all of that. And so I, um, I, I started the Drive on podcast, which you, you mentioned just a, a minute ago. And really the idea of the show was to interview other veterans and share their stories. Maybe, maybe they've been through hell and, um, and they, they figured their way out and they can use their story sort of as a roadmap for another veteran who might be listening, who, who's sitting there like without any kind of hope or any, any, uh, you know, chance for a better future in their mind. And they hear these stories and they, they think to themselves, okay, well, um, you know. Maybe, maybe there is some hope for me. And, um, you know, then I also talk to other, uh, you know, providers of, of services, different nonprofits and other organizations that, um, that a lot of times people just don't know even exist. And so when people go to the VA and they have a bad experience and they think, well, I've, I've tried everything I can from, you know, what's available to veterans. Um, and that's just not true. There's, there's just so many, there's thousands of organizations out there that do all sorts of different things. And so, you know, if you think you've tried everything, I, I, I just really doubt that you have. And, and I, I think there's so many, uh, opportunities out there for, for veterans. So, you know, anyone who's out there struggling, I just wanted to get that message out there and give them just a bit of hope to just keep on going, you know, make it till tomorrow and then, then we'll worry about tomorrow, tomorrow, but then, then make it to the next day and the next day after that. And, and that, that's kind of the. Idea that, that I had behind the podcast. So, so I started that about six and a half years ago now. And, um, you know, I've, I've been going strong ever since and, uh, you know, don't, don't ever wanna, you know, stop doing it because it, it just seems like every, every so often I get these messages from folks saying like, man, I really need to hear that message today. And, and, uh, you know, who knows w was that really them at the end of their rope or was, was it, you know, just having a bad day or something like that. But, um, you know, it's nice to know that, that there are people out there getting help and, and I, I started it thinking if I can help just one person, um, then mission accomplish, right? And, uh, you know, at this point I've had over 550 episodes, so I have a feeling I'd probably help more than one person. So

Tim: 7:20

I would, I would imagine, I would hope so anyways. Right? I think that's the why podcasting has been so helpful for so many guys and why it's kind of skyrocketed popularity is the shared stories. At this point, there's so many people creating good content that you can find someone that has a story, that'll give you an idea on where you might go. And I love that you were on the front end of getting folks that.

Scott: 7:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, I, there again, there, there's so many good podcasts out there. Um, there's some, even just from an entertainment perspective, just to hear two guys bullshitting about whatever, and, uh, you know, it, it's just enjoyable to listen to, uh, for, for some folks. But, um, but there, there are good podcasts out there, and I'm not out there claiming that mine's the only one out there that, that's helping out veterans. There's plenty of, uh, podcasts out there with, with the same kind of mission and focus out out there. Um, and personally, I don't care if you listen to my podcast or you listen to some of the others. Um, you know, if you're finding the help that you need, then great. That's, we all have kind of the same mission,

Tim: 8:24

you know? Well, what's the, it's the scarcity mindset versus the abundance mindset. Right. That if everybody's making good things and it's helping people, then we're all doing fine. Versus the scarcity of like, there's only so many people listening, I need to get them all.

Scott: 8:36

Yeah. Right. It doesn't really work out. Yeah. And you know what, there, there are, I think there's something like 19 or 20 million veterans out, out there. So it's like, not like we have a, a lack of potential audience, you know, out there. So yeah. A hundred,

Tim: 8:49

a hundred percent. So you went on a deployment. What was your job when you were served?

Scott: 8:54

Yeah, I was a infantryman. Uh, yeah. So my, my brother and I were both infantrymen. I, I, I figured he, he joined as, uh, infantry and I knew if I did anything other than infantry, he would, he would be, uh, you know, ragging on me. Like, oh man, that's not even a real job. Like, what, what are you even doing there? You know, just 'cause that's just our nature. Not, not that he necessarily believed that it was just, you know, I the way mean most people in the military believe

Tim: 9:18

it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's the. I think, I think I just did the, like the episode we just released this week while recording this talks about military culture and one of the big aspects is that there is a hierarchy between combat arms guys and the rest of us, not only one in 10 of people who served or combat arms, guys and the rest of us are just there to make sure you all can do the job right. Exactly.

Scott: 9:40

That's, that's the way it should be. And, and I was, I was guilty of that too when I, when I was serving it, it was like, if you're not infantry, then, you know, whatever. You don't even count. You're not barely even a person in, in, in our mind. Right. Um, but you know, after getting out and after kind of learning a little bit more about what other, other people did in the military, and, um, you know, especially through this, the podcast that I've done, uh, I, I've had conversations with people from all different branches and all different moss and all, all different things that people would do. Um, and you start to think about it, it's like, well, we couldn't have eaten without. The, the su the supplies coming in of, of the food and the cooks who, who cook the food. And, uh, you know, we didn't have ammo if, if supply didn't, you know, resupply us with, with ammo and all the, all the things that you need. Um, e even some of the, like, just the, the niceties that, that might have existed on a, on a base that came from somebody somewhere. And, uh, you know, so all of those things that you kind of take for granted, um, yeah. You, you need all those other people, you know, the 10 or so other people who, uh, support that one person who's boots on the ground. Yeah. Um, you know,

Tim: 10:53

and so well that's how we get so many guys home. Yeah. Right. Like if you just look at casualty rates. Right. We've done way better than the Vietnam guys. Yeah, right. We've gotten way better about supporting the war fighter. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, well, so between your own experience and talking to 500 or more veterans at this point. Uh, like, I like that we kinda, what we came up with to talk about today is what kinda lessons and masculinity come outta the military that can just be generally useful. And I think why that's as important is I get a lot of really weird credit for being an Air Force intelligence guy. Like the cops that come see me in my practice are like, oh, you're a veteran, you're getting it. I'm like, man, I, okay. Like, like I've been working with you guys a while. I, I do kind of get it, but No, like, come on in. Um, there is a credibility that guys that have served in uniform have in these things, and I, I think it's because in America we don't have a cultural moment where a boy becomes a man, not one that everybody agrees on. And one of the only things that people generally do agree on is some kind of uniform service. And I, so I think, so that's where some of that comes from. What's your been, what's been your experience with that as far as guys talking about how important their service was to their masculinity?

Scott: 12:12

You know, I, the, the guys that I've, I've spoken with have talked about the, that transition period from being a high school kid with really no direction, no future. They, they weren't a great student and things like that. And then they, they joined the military and all of a sudden they, they're a lot more disciplined. They're, they're more focused. They're, they're, uh, much more mature. They're, they're able to, uh, take, follow directions and, and do the things that they need to do to be successful in whatever their job was. And a lot of times, I, I hear these stories from these guys who, who maybe they were, they were just screwing up in school. They were, they were failing out of classes. They were maybe even, you know, drinking and doing drugs and, and things like that. And back when they were in high school and then. They get to this point where they kind of clean up their life and, and really focus on what is important in life. And a lot of times you start hearing these guys saying like, yeah, I'm working on my master's. I'm, I'm, I'm going back to school. I'm getting all these things, which previously they never would've even considered going to school. Like if they were that same 18-year-old kid, just graduating high school. School was not even a, a thing that they had on their radar. They were like, what do I do next? And so going through the military, uh, you know, even just something as simple as basic training really transforms, uh, the, the type of person that you are, you really get to, uh, I guess focus on what, what is important in life, what is important to you as an individual, but also as, um, as a team. Because when, when you're in the military, you're, you're a member of a team, whether, whether you like it or not. Um, and. You start focusing on those things that are around you instead of just what makes me happy? What, what do I need? You, you start looking at the, at the other people around and, and realizing that, you know, I'm, I'm just one person in this whole, uh, the whole scheme of things here. And so, so it, it really does start to change people as they, uh, especially as they progress through their careers in the military. Even if they only do, you know, four or six, eight years or whatever, um, you know, they, they don't have to do a full 20 plus years, uh, to get this type of benefit. Um, you know, whatever it it is that you've done in the military, it, it shifts you towards that. Um, more mature, more responsible. And I know some people who've been in the military will probably laugh at the mature comment because, you know, the barracks parties and things like that, that people have had are probably the, the furthest from mature. But, um, you know, take any. Young guy, they're, they're gonna have something, um, you know, immature that they do, and probably stupid. And, you know, we've all probably done the same type of thing, so.

Tim: 15:05

Well, I'm always amused when I hear people outside of the military talk about work hard, play hard. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, okay. So you like your time off, but I don't think you blew an entire deployments pay in a weekend in Germany. I don't think you understand how far that can go and how dumb that is. Right, right. Yeah, we, yeah. I'm not saying that there, there

Scott: 15:25

aren't

Tim: 15:25

stupid decisions

Scott: 15:26

that are being made,

Tim: 15:27

um, but at least you learn that they're stupid. Right. In a safe and contained way. Yeah, exactly. Uh, well I think a big part of that, I was, I was thinking about this after our conversation and kind of coming into this, and I think what the military really does well is that it's a masculine environment, right? Which doesn't mean women can't serve and doesn't mean that women aren't powerful in their service, but it is a culture that's kind of based around masculine growth. So a lot of collective service, a lot of mentorship, a lot of structure, and a lot of competence. And I think that's really what we're missing for our young men today is we don't have a lot of spaces for guys that that can find that. And I think at 19, every guy needs it. Like there, our frontal lobe is the furthest behind it ever is on women, and it's at the highest point of our testosterone, just beating the hell out of this weak little bit of our frontal lobe. And all these decisions are being made. Uh, Scott Galloway talks about a lot, uh, guys needing guardrails. Yeah. Right. They need other men around them providing guardrails when they're young. And I think the military, just because of its nature and because it started as a men's only organization, is good about having those guardrails around for people to grow competence, make mistakes, and be contained while they do so.

Scott: 16:44

Right. Yeah, because I, I think we're. We all learn the best probably from our mistakes that we, we made. Um, and that's I think just human nature. All, all the way from the time that you were a, a child. Like you make a mistake and you realize, oh, don't do that. And then like the rest of your life, you don't do that thing again. You know, you, you touch a hot stove and, and you burn your hand. Well, now as an adult, you're not gonna go around touching a hot stove. And it's not, not just because you have a common sense not to do it, it's because that hurt a lot back when you did it as a kid maybe. And, and so like you, you, you learn things through mistakes. And so having an environment where you can make a mistake and not have it be catastrophic and, you know, totally devastating is important as well. And I think the military gives you those types of opportunities as well through all the training that you do and, and everything else. Y you might be given. I, I know in my case, I've been given opportunities to, uh, advance in leadership, uh, while, while I was in the military to do jobs that were outside of my pay grade, but like, you know, much higher level jobs. And I didn't always do a great job when I was doing it, and I, I kind of screwed him up, but it wasn't like I was leading troops in combat. It was in training and, and so I didn't do a great job, but then I learned what did I do wrong? Okay, don't do that again. Do do this other thing that'll probably make it a little bit better. And, and then you, you kind of grow that way. But again, to your point, you kind of had have to have mentors. You have to have those people there, uh, to serve as those guardrails so that you can make those mistakes without blowing everything up.

Tim: 18:37

Yeah. And I think that that kind of, uh, pivots pretty well into, you know, we, when we were talking. We had talked about some rules about masculinity that, that come outta the military, and one of the ones I wrote down was A man carries but doesn't carry at all like community versus being on your own and perfect. And that is exactly what you're talking about. The military gives room for guys to learn with enough support around them to contain the mistakes so they can make them. And that's why training is so important. And it is why when the mistakes happen in a live fire environment, why it's so tragic. But I don't think there's many places that you have to accept that you're not carrying every aspect of what's happening. Like the military, like you said, you know, somebody fed you to be there no matter who you are. Somebody got you those mra, somebody got you that ammo and you're on a team, like even snipers have a guy with them. Right? It's a team of two.

Scott: 19:36

Yeah. And, and there was never a time when. I was deployed anyways as an infantryman. There was never a time when it was just me going out on a mission myself, like a solo mission just to go hunt down the bad guys Rambo style and you know, any of that kind of stuff like that, that that's Hollywood, that doesn't happen, you know? Um, and so it was always a team of people of, and, and not just like two people or three people. It, it was, it was a, a, a team of, a bunch of us to go out and, uh, and, and do whatever it was that we needed to do. And so we had people watching our backs. We had people who were, you know, kind of in, on the, on the front lines, if you will, and, and other people who were kind of in an Overwatch position. And, and we, you had people all over the place. And, and that way you were able to focus on your job, your task instead of. Constantly checking everything around you. You knew that you had people that you can trust that would be there for you, that, that were doing their job because you've trained with them, you know, you knew how good they were at their job, and people who weren't as good at their job as other people, um, it you made sure that they got better because you knew that it was life or death. If they're not doing their job well then that, that could be my ass, or that could be somebody else's. If, if they're slacking off or they're falling asleep, you know, in a Overwatch position or something like that, that, that could really have real world consequences. So, um, so you do all you can to make sure that that team is as good as possible, you know?

Tim: 21:19

Yeah. Well, and I think that kind of leans into how we're designed just as a species, right? So you figure for most of our history in, in our existence, we ran around in groups of, you know, 20 to a hundred people, and. If you were a guy that felt good about yourself and had some success within the group, you had a thing you did for the group, you were the guy that made the shoes. You were the guy that was the best hunter. You were the guy that, whatever it was, you had a thing that you could provide to the group. And I think within a modern economy, that's really hard, right? If you're an accountant, no one sees you doing spreadsheets or cares, right? If you're an efficiency expert, like no one outside of the organization really knows what you do, you're explain that to your kids, right? And I think in the military, it does a very good job for everyone doing any part of the job, making them understand how it connects.

Scott: 22:12

Yeah. And, and like you were saying before, um, there's, you know, nine or 10 or so people for every one, boots on the ground person. And that's, that's everything. That's the finance clerk, that's the, uh, the cooks, that's the mechanics, that's the, um, you know, all, all the way across the entire organization that, that there's a ton of people that are there to support. You. Um, and without those people, the whole thing falls apart. And so while we were a team of, you know, 30 or so people who would go out on a mission, um, there wasn't much bigger team who was stuck behind us who were doing all the other stuff that, so we didn't have to worry about where, where's our paycheck coming from? Where, where's our food coming from? Where's, uh, you know, the resupplies or any of that kind of stuff. We, we didn't have to worry about those things 'cause somebody else was taking care of it for us. And so that, that team was much bigger than what you might see on the ground. Yeah. And

Tim: 23:09

that lets you all hyper focus on what you're doing to be good at it as possible. And I think that's the, one of the big things I see in modern culture for guys is this idea that we're all supposed to be entrepreneurs now. Like we're all supposed to work for ourselves and be self-motivated and go make our own money. And just as a clinician, and this is anecdotal, I don't have data on this, but. In my experience, less than like 5% of people are really built to be entrepreneurial. Like there's gotta be a pretty powerful internal drive for success. There's gotta be some pretty powerful like solo motivation. Like you can do the thing on your own, but most of us aren't designed that way. And then I, I think the tragedy of that is it makes so many guys feel like there's something wrong with them for not being successful in entrepreneurial things and being successful in a solo project as though that's normal. It's not. And I think that was the really powerful thing outta my military service that I came away with was, you understand what a team does, you understand what a shared purpose does, and then you understand the importance of competency and the limits of competency, which I think really gets missed everywhere else.

Scott: 24:28

Yeah. And I, I think for, for those who do. Dip their toes in the entrepreneur world and, and try to start a business on their own or whatever. Those who have been in the military who have experience working on a team, who have, um, experienced not doing everything on their own, I found has been more successful. Not to say every single person has been successful.'cause you're right, it, it's not for everybody, but when you're able to kinda let go and let other people take the wheel for certain things, like, like if I start a business, maybe I'm not great at marketing, but I know some people that I can hire who can do the marketing stuff and so I, I let that go and I let them handle marketing and I can then. Free up my time to go focus on other things that are more helpful to the business. Um, if I'm focusing on the things I'm not good at, I'm just holding the business back. And so when you have that kind of experience, I, and, and can admit that you're not the answer to all the world's problems, like you, you can, you can be a lot more successful. You can go further when you have a group of people working with you.

Tim: 25:46

Yeah. I, it's funny, I'm literally going through that major transition now, right? So the podcast has only been running for seven or eight months, and I did all of it at the beginning, mostly because I needed to learn enough of what each job was to figure out who to hire. And now I've got a team of five people that are working on this to make sure that it's fact checked, to make sure that the video quality is good enough for folks so that they can hear us. And all of a sudden I can focus on getting better at having the conversation. I can focus on writing my book, I can focus on all these things that nobody else in the team can do. And I think that if it hadn't, honestly, for me, if it hadn't have been for the military, that would've been a lot harder to accept. It would've, it would've been a much bigger thing of like, no, I should just be able to grind this out. And I, I think the other thing that the military teaches you is that you can grind, but it also gives you, like, you need a direction to grind in. Like you need to grind, you really need like a narrow focus because you can't do everything and actually improve at something. Yeah.

Scott: 26:50

Grinding for the sake of grinding is not going to help things like you, you need that, like you said, you need that focus and direction. And just kind of anecdotally, uh, like I had a business with after getting outta the military, uh, where I was doing website design for share companies and I. It was great when, when I first started doing it, and it was, it was enjoyable. Um, and over time I had built some software that that worked on websites and, and things like that. And I was like, oh, well, you know, I can keep building the websites and I could start selling the software and I could, and I, I was pulling myself in two different directions. I was, my focus was in two different places at the same time every day. And I found that neither one of 'em were really gaining any kind of traction. I, I was just, I felt like I was just stalling out in, in all of it. And so eventually I said, okay, what am I actually enjoying in this business? What, what is it that I want to do? And what do I think has the, the best potential for, um, you know, future income potential? And, uh, so I did away with all the website design stuff because I, I was just not enjoying that side of it anymore. And I focused all my attention on the software stuff that I was building, and that really took off. And. It was because I was able to focus on that and give that the attention that it deserved, that I was able to, uh, really kinda launch it to something bigger. Um, but had I, had, I kept splitting my attention and just grinding for the sake grinding, I would've burned myself out and I would've been useless to the business. So, um, you know, eventually I ended up selling that business, but it was, um, it was something that I, I enjoyed doing and I, I figured out ways to make it work because my focus was, was on that side of the business. Yeah.

Tim: 28:44

Yeah. And that was something that the military really helped me realize.'cause I used to, my whole pattern growing up and then even through my undergrad and after, before the military, I was really good at high achieving, right? Like I, president of student government, I'd get national awards for different social justice stuff I did. And then usually comes in these like. One and a half to two year spikes of effort. And then like a six month to a year long crash afterwards of just depression and uselessness. And what was nice about the military is you can't have a useless period in the military. Like nobody's, nobody's putting up with that. And there were people around me that when I was, you know, pushing hard, they encouraged it, but they also like provided some guardrails on it, right? Like, Hey, this training is gonna take this much time and it's great that you're going to quick, but like, what are you doing this weekend that isn't this like you need to get you clear your head? Who have you spent time with? And I don't think that's something that people really understand a lot about the military is there is a focus when there can be for the whole self. It's just that it's always mission first.

Scott: 29:57

Yeah, yeah. Always. Uh, yeah, always mission first. Um, but. I guess, you know, work hard, play hard too, right? Gotta blow off

Tim: 30:10

that steam where it goes across somehow, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, so within that, right, the, the pushing at your point of impact, I've had, uh, a few combat vets that have now become, stay at home fathers as patients. And it's because their, their masculinity is bulletproof, right? Like, they're like the plumber comes in and gives 'em a hard time. They're like, yeah, fix my toilet. I don't care what you think of me. Like they have that security. In your experience, like you've talked to a few hundred veterans at this point, how do you see the ones that make the transition from those military lessons to civilian life? What are the things they carry forward? Well,

Scott: 30:51

you know, a lot of guys have trouble with that transition and, uh, that, that transition. I, I think that the trouble that they have. The, the losing the sense of purpose or identity as, as a service member, um, that, that sense of purpose of, you know, serving your country and, and member of a team and the guys who do it well, find a replacement for that purpose rather quickly. Um, and they, they may have found it in a job that they have, or in their families or in something else, whatever it is to them that gives them a sense of purpose, um, that that's the thing that they, they need to, um, to make that transition a little bit more successful. Uh, not to say that every single person is gonna be, uh, successful just because they, they have a, a purpose or a, you know, a great job or whatever job may not even be the thing for them. That, that gives 'em a sense of purpose. Um, they may not have a family either, and so. Then it, then it becomes, okay, what is meaningful to you? What's important? You know, for me, uh, doing something to continue serving the military and the veteran community, uh, became a kinda a passion project, but it gave me a sense of purpose and, and meaning, like, I, I keep doing it because I know that I'm out there helping people. And if I just stop doing it in the back of my head, I'm gonna say to myself, well, what if there's someone now who needs some help and I all of a sudden just stopped and they're no longer getting the help that they need?'cause none of my stuff is out there anymore. So, um, you know, the, the answer to where do I find purpose or meaning, that that's gonna be different for everybody. And so I can't, unfortunately, I can't just wave a magic wand and give you the answer of where you find purpose. Um, but that's the thing that you need to. Focus on is what gives me purpose, what, what is the thing that actually matters to me? Uh, and and a lot of times people find it in unexpected places. Uh, things that maybe they've never done before or never tried before, but they, uh, they have a friend who invites 'em out to some group event or whatever and, um, they're like, yeah, I've never done that before. I'm, I'm not gonna be all that good. And they go out and they love it, and it all, all of a sudden becomes the thing that they're focused on and they be, you know, work their way into some sort of leadership position or whatever. And they, so I guess the point that I'm trying to make is like, be, if you don't have that, that thing that you feel like is given you a sense of purpose or meaning, be open to new things. Keep your, your, your eyes and ears open for things that might be of interest. Even if you've never done it before, give it a shot. Like what do you have to lose? Maybe an afternoon or, or so of. Trying something and, and if it doesn't work out for you, good. Cross that off the list and move on, you know?

Tim: 33:51

Well, and I think the, what I tend to find and what I see guys go through is it's gotta be something that has some discipline to it, right? Something where you can improve and your engagement with it has an impact on people. And I think that's where a lot of guys get missed. And I think it's because of our grandfathers, their whole purpose was their job. Yep. Right? The provider role was quintessential and all that you had. And now that's much less so. Right. Especially as we find work going away. Unfortunately, uh, what I see is you've gotta like the results of the activity enough to be willing to suck at it. Yeah. Like, you've gotta be willing to like, oh, like I really like the people around here. I like what I see this thing do, man. I really gotta figure out how to get good at this. Right.

Scott: 34:43

Right. Yeah. And that, that actually kinda reminds me of, um, and my, my son, we got him a, a guitar, uh, he's, he's, uh, 12 years old now. We got him a guitar a couple years ago, and at first he wasn't all that interested. He, he's like, ah, I don't know. I don't, I don't really know how to play the guitar. I'm not, I'm not all that. I'm not really good at it. I'm not really all that musically inclined. And then something kind of just switched gears with him. I don't know what it was, but he started to just start playing it. Like he went to YouTube and looked up like tutorials and how, how to play it. And like, he, he wasn't really interested in taking lessons or anything like that, so he, he just kind of taught himself. And at first, like you said, he kind of sucked at it. Hmm. But now he's, he's pretty damn good. He's like playing songs that are, I mean, my God, like I'm, I'm, I'm pretty impressed. And he's only 12. So like. His hands aren't even necessarily big enough to get all of the, um, all, all the, the frets that, that are on the, the, uh, the guitar. But, um, but he, he's, he's playing the songs and he, and then they're sounding great. And, and so I know that's, that's kind of a small thing. It's just a, it's a hobby type thing. But, uh, it's kind to your point. He wanted to be a person who plays guitar and he had to suck at it first. Um, just like a lot of us do. I mean, again, go back to when you're a kid and you were learning how to ride a bike. I mean, who didn't fall when they were trying to learn how to ride a bike? I mean, we all did, probably. But, um, but then once you did, you now gained the skill and now you're able to go, you know, do all the cool things that riding a bike and, you know, provides you. So, um, you know, I know those are, are, those are kid things. Those are, those are smaller things. But the same idea, I think applies to anything else. It's like, if you want. Whatever it is. Yeah. You're gonna have to put in the work. Um, if it, if it's a job and you need certain training or certifications or, or whatever, you're gonna have to go and do that and maybe start at the ground level, but then work your way up and, and yeah, it might suck. It might be some grunt work at first, but you can do it. I mean, you've done grunt work in, in the military, I'm sure. You know, like even if you weren't a grunt, like, like I was, but like there were still plenty of things that were unpleasant. I mean, who among us haven't scrubbed toilets and, you know, all those kind of things. Like you had to do it anyway, so like Yeah. That, and that had nothing to do with any military, anything. It was just because it to be done showcase that you could do it. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, it, yeah, it does it suck. Sure. But will it get better the more you do, more effort you put into it? Yeah,

Tim: 37:31

absolutely. Well, I think that's the important part of an adult life is the, like Mark Manson talks about this a lot. It's the idea that you're going to suffer through life, like life will have friction and suffering is inevitable. The people that are most fulfilled are the people that pick where they're suffering, right? And so having a reason to suck at something makes it so that you can get good at something. The guys that struggle the most are the ones that either never got the opportunity to struggle at something and, and overcome it, or that forgot how to. And so it's either my young guys who were raised, I, I, I think millennials have been like on the plus side of us as parents. We have made the safest generation of children in human history. On the negative side of that, a lot of those children never had opportunities to fail. They never had the, like they're driving later, they're doing all these things later. Some of them never learned how to ride a bike very well because they didn't have opportunity to travel as a child. There wasn't a reason to go somewhere on a bike, right? And then on the other end of it, I see guys in retirement that struggle very similarly, where they leave their professional environment, where they're acclaimed, they're known, they've got status, and they put that down. And they're not willing to go into a new community and suck at something. They're too used to being in charge. They're too used to being the guy that knows what he's doing. And so all of a sudden, like one guy I worked with, he was a, um, a finance guy that retired and to just try to get some community. He went and tried to work at a food bank, but he kept trying to tell them how to organize the shelves his first day. Yeah. Like his first day as though he had any concept or knowledge about what anybody was doing. He was just used to being the guy that was telling people what to do.

Scott: 39:19

Right. Yeah. And, and I've talked to folks who were higher ranking officers, you know, colonels generals who they got out of the military and they went on to. Act two of their life, uh, you know, whatever, whatever they had next. And they were expecting some executive level position. And not to say that they started off on the ground floor, but they weren't necessarily at that executive level position that they thought they would be at. And it was kind of, uh, maybe even demoralizing to them that they didn't have that, that level of position where, where they had that seniority in, in that, that rank and that pull when they were in the military. But outside the military, no one honestly gives a crap of what your

Tim: 40:07

rank was. Well, and no one understands outside of the military the difference between a general, a colonel, a captain, and a lieutenant. Right. I, what I think is interesting about those guys, and I, I tend to work now more with officers than enlisted guys because the VA out here has been doing well enough that most of the enlisted guys can go there, but the officers don't want to go for care with their guys. And what I find with them is they're, the military is probably the most hierarchically structured status machine. Right. Where like literally we have markings that let you know exactly how, where we are in the order of things. Then when you're towards the top of that pecking order, it's really difficult to transition to a civilian world where there is nothing like that. Like you, a CEO of a major company can walk through the halls of that company and people don't know who he is. Yeah. And have no idea that that's the

Scott: 41:00

ceo. Right. And nobody's saluting him or, you know, no, no one's, no, no one's saying anything when he walks into a room or anything like that. It's just a room full of people don't snap to attention the minute he walks in. Right, exactly. You know, you know, and Yeah, sure. There, there, I'm sure there are people who know who he is and, and things like that. More, more so than, you know, your, your, uh, you know, entry level worker. But, um, but yeah, it, it's a whole different ball game.

Tim: 41:28

I think that kind of transitions into one of the last kind of concepts I came up with, we came up with in the conversation earlier, and that's code switching for culture, right? Code switching as a concept, if you've never heard of it before, is what people have to do based on who they're in front of. And it was coined by, uh, people that struggle, right? So, uh, black folks, Hispanic folks having to code switch to deal with white culture. But, and I think that's important and it's something that, you know, needs some work and it's also just a good thing to be able to do in life. Uh, we were talking in another episode about the idea of it being the hat you're wearing versus the mask you're wearing. Understanding that, you know, you're still you, but you're changing how you engage based on the role you're in. Like you're different as a dad than a boss, than a partner than a friend, right? And it's still all you. I think one of the things that the military really taught me was that code switching because it is one of the most diverse organizations on the planet. And when you're in uniform, everybody's behaving like someone in uniform. Right. But then you go to the barracks and there's like mariachi heavy metal wrap all happening at the same dorm room.'cause it's a party.

Scott: 42:43

Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was one of the things I think for, for me, uh, personally, when I got out of the military, I struggled with, I struggl struggled with a lot. Um, I had a heavy, um, a heavy weight on the identity as a soldier. And I tried to do all the things in my normal civilian life, being a dad, being a husband, being a, a coworker, being a whatever. I tried to. Do that with the same intensity that I did anything in the military. And that doesn't work. Um, that does not lead to happy children or a happy wife or a happy anything because, you know, it, it was like almost like drill sergeant mode screaming and yelling at the tiniest of little things. And I had to come to the realization that that doesn't work like that. That's not gonna help anything because if everything's a fire, everything's a, an emergency, then nothing's an emergency. And so if I'm yelling at my kid, like he's about to get hit by a truck and it's just like a small little thing that's happening, then when he's actually about to get hit by a truck, he's not gonna pay attention. And that, that kind of thing had to be, um. Relearned, uh, for, for me. And that was, that was something that, that I kind of struggle with a bit, um, after, after getting out. Um, had a lot of, a lot of issues with that.

Tim: 44:23

Well, I think that's pretty normal, right? The, um, because there's an intensity to leading in combat. And I think that, that in the combat arms guys in particular, it tends to, that intensity bleeds into other types of leadership. But I mean, you, I imagine that you saw this, right? The best combat leaders are pretty laid back outside of combat. Yep, yep. Right? They're, they explain things. They're kind, they, they understand what's happening. And then that way, when it is a crisis and they bark in order, everyone immediately goes to 'cause they're comfortable and understand that this person's got their best interest in mind. I think like as a, like when I was a young sergeant and a lot of like corporals, right? Uh, I think it's an easy mistake to make.

Scott: 45:13

Yeah. And, and that was, that was the thing that I, I found is that, um, in, in combat, the smallest mistake could be a life and death issue very, very easily could have gone catastrophic. And so a lot of times even the small mistakes warranted a kind of blow up response where, where you yell at people and you, you kind of try to get their, their head out of their ass. But outside of those types of environments, you don't need that. Like, that, that's not the way, the way things should work. Now I've, I've done some work on myself and I've, I've gotten better at that, but could I pull that back out? Absolutely. Yeah. Um. But I know, and once

Tim: 45:59

you have the knife hand, you always have the knife

Scott: 46:01

hand. Right. You don't have to whip it out every time. Right. It, it, it's just, you know, when is the appropriate situation, you know, there, there are, there have been situations where I've, I've pulled that out, but it's, the way I, I like to think of it is kind of like a, uh, uh, you know, a contractor who, who goes to a job site and they have their tools that they have on the tool belt, and, and those tools tend to be the tools that they use fairly regularly. You know, maybe, maybe on a, at least a daily basis, if not, you know, more frequently. And then they also have other tools that they leave out in the truck because those tools, they might only get used once a week or once a month or something like that. And they don't need to be carrying around all of those tools all the time, but they still have 'em if they need them. And so that's something that I like to think. Like I, I'm gonna keep that in my truck and I'll go grab it when I need it, but, but I don't need to carry that around around them, just like right behind my eyes anymore. Right, right. It, it doesn't need to be. On the tool belt where, where it's Yeah, right there. Immediate access all the time. Um, it, it's something I can, I can put away and, and I can go back to it if I, if need be. Yeah.

Tim: 47:09

We, I had a lot of fun. The, the fourth episode we ever released was with my instructor from Sergeant's training course, and he went on to be, um, when Space Force formed, they poached him outta the Air Force and he helped them write personnel policy. So he went, you know, as far as leadership and understanding kind of meta concepts around it, he's, he's kind of a man. And essentially when we were talking, the whole purpose of the episode was to kind of break the idea of leadership outta the military from a civilian view, from the idea that everybody's behaving like a drill instructor. And that's what a leader looks like. And I think you're speaking to it really well. Like in combat, there is a directness that has to occur because every moment is critical. And like you said. If you're not in that explicit situation, that's not the tool that you need to bring out. And it takes time to go back and forth. It takes time to figure out how to find that balance. I mean, you're not, I know, you know, you're not alone and having to kind of suss that out. But every person I've ever worked with that does is such a better leader on their soft skills because they know they have the hard skills. Like all of a sudden they can be kind because if it goes poorly, they know they can respond effectively. Right. And so they're not just constantly on this push.

Scott: 48:28

Yeah. And, and that's something I, I think a lot of guys miss when, when you're talking about masculinity, a lot of times guys are thinking about the, like the big, strong, almost intimidating, whatever like that. You don't have to be that all the time. Yeah. Having the ability to pull that out when, when you need to, that, that's a great skill to have and it's a great, great tool to have in your toolbox. But, um. Also the ability to, yeah. Like you said, to be kind, to be caring, to, to be a good friend, be, to be a good husband or father or, or whatever the case may be. Um, to be there for those people that that's pretty important too. And if, if you're turning those people off because you're constantly screaming at them, like, we, you're not gonna get the opportunity to be a good whatever, fill in the blank. That, that you

Tim: 49:20

wanna be. Well, and then they just, like you said, right, if everything's a crisis, nothing is like, um, like I had a patient two weeks ago that was, uh, he was a, he was a combat sergeant, good guy. Done a lot of work to soften. And he is got a young kid at home and he worked really, really hard not to be like his old man. Right. That's why he came. He was like, look, dad was a sergeant. I'm a sergeant. I wanna be a dad, not a sergeant. Like how do we do that? And he'd been doing really well. And then he came in and he was kind of shaken because. His kid ran into the street and the sergeant came out and it scared his kid. Right. And I was like, yeah, man. But did he cross the street? Well, no. Was there cars? Yes. So is it okay that you scared your son a little bit so he didn't get hit by a car? Yes. And what did you, right. And because that's a crisis moment, right. And so what, what did you do to repair with him after that? How did you reattach to the kindness? How did you make sure he understood why that was a crisis versus what normally happens with dad? And that's way better than the guy that's just constantly screaming at the kids because the kid might not have stopped dad's yelling again. Right. Might've gone and gotten plowed by a car. I, I think that's the thing is the, the more conversations I have around masculinity, the more important the idea of, in my mind, what's a renaissance man comes up. In a modern world, you need to be good in a lot of different aspects, and you need to be at least confident in the ones that you're not comfortable with. And there are those guys that are just kinda more aggressive guys, more direct guys, that they're the ones that you want kinda naturally falling into like a combat leader role. And those guys are gonna not be the best dudes for hugging kids. Right? Like, but their life is a lot fuller if they learn how to. And the guy that's really soft and really good with kids and really gentle, his life is a lot better if he knows how to take a punch. And he is, his life is a lot better if he has some confidence that he can take a swing. Right. And I think that's the hard part is when we, when I hear other content around masculinity, there's this really narrow lane of like, either be John Wayne or just be incredibly soft all the time. Mm-hmm. And there's not this recognition that a full adult life is being able to move in varied environments.

Scott: 51:47

And, and like we kind of started this portion of the conversation is knowing what hat to wear when the situation dictates, right? Like, yeah, sometime you might have to put your sergeant hat on and, and you know, go, go full drill sergeant on somebody, but other times you need to put your, your dad hat on or your, your husband hat on or your, you know, whatever hat on to, um, to deal with whatever that situation is that you're, you're you're facing. And not every situation is going to require high level of intensity. Um, and if you are treating it that way, it, it's gonna backfire on you. And, and I, I know this because it did on me. It, it, it totally backfired on me. And when I finally came to the, the realization that it was backfiring on me, I started thinking to myself like, how many people have I hurt? Through how I was acting. And I'm sitting here thinking, I, I'm just trying to handle this all myself. When else have I been successful and just handled things on my own? You know, like, yeah, why don't I get help? Why am I being so, so stubborn? You know?

Tim: 53:04

Well, and some of it's just the, that code switching of what respectful communication looks like. Like I remember going right from the Air Force into a multicultural counseling program and I don't, I don't know many people who have had a harder cultural switch than like military direct crisis to we're gonna explore our feelings and our depths of self and learn about everybody who isn't you. Um, and I think what made it at all possible was some of that code switching that we were talking about before, where, you know, what hat are you wearing? Then how do you like the, the thing that kind of moved it for me was accepting that people see you wearing a hat and then figuring out how to show up in a new environment, wearing it effectively. So none of my classmates thought of like the first year, probably thought of me as anything other than that veteran guy. Right? So then the, the struggle became like, okay, so if that's me and that's who I am here and it's who I'm gonna be in my life, how do I move through this environment and represent that well? Like, I can't behave like I would around other veterans, around a bunch of counselors. That's just not effective. But I'm also not gonna not be direct. And I think, you know, like the military, you know, living in Korea, living in England, serving with a really broad group of people and spending time with them really helped me figure out how to move in normals that aren't mine.

Scott: 54:41

Yeah, that's, I think that's a good way of, of putting it because there, there are a lot of situations that are normal for other people that maybe you just haven't been exposed to or it's just not your comfort zone or whatever the case may be. Um, but you have to be in that situation. You have to be around those people and how do, how do you deal with those situations? Um, you kind of have to adapt and not, not to say don't be yourself, but yourself might not be the type of person who's, who's really, um, uh, comfortable in those, those situations. So do what you need to do to get comfortable in those situations and kind of, kind of fake it till you make it almost, but, but get, get yourself in into that, that kind of position where, where you are, um, where, where, where you're able to, um, excel in those, those situations.

Tim: 55:36

Yeah. The third episode we ever released was me talking about how to move through places that aren't yours and the like, in a nutshell, what a two year academic program on cultural communication is, if you can accept being around normals that aren't yours, except that this is normal for these people, you all of a sudden can have a lot of fun and not be the asshole, right? Because you, you're not expecting it to feel normal for you. You're not expecting to navigate it with like artfulness, but you move a little bit more gentle, you slow down a little bit and you pay attention and all of a sudden, like you're enjoying a Ramadan dinner for the first time. You know what I mean? Um, and I, I, I think the military doesn't get enough credit for that. And I think it's because from the outside of the military, all you see is the uniform. And the reason it's called uniform is because we're all supposed to look as much alike as possible when we're in service. Right. But that doesn't let you see the, the beauty that happens in the barracks, the conversations that happen over the night shift, the, the shared cooking that happens, right? All those little blended moments that I don't think civilians fully understand happen in the military because it's not what you get to see.

Scott: 56:54

Yeah. Having that, that kind of experience even, um, you, you were talking about some different cultural experiences and I know we had plenty of those when, uh, we were in Afghanistan. Uh, even just the food that they, they had and they, they would offer to us. Um, where, where else are you gonna have the opportunity to eat that, that type of food and, and, and, uh, experience it the way the local people experience it. And did you learn to love goat? Is that what happened? Well, it wasn't that I, I disliked it before, but it, it was like, uh, um, it, it was something that I never really. Partook in, you know, that type of thing. But, um, but even, even the, the, the meals that they would have, like, um, I know our, our base, we had some local contractors, uh, so locals, uh, people to the area they, that would work on our base and they would work at certain observation posts and, and we, we had them there kind of for like, kind of first alert kind of security kind of thing. Not, not that we didn't have cameras and other things that were also there. And we had other soldiers as well.'cause we didn't fully trust them, but they would invite us over to where they were and they'd, they'd invite us to share a meal with them and everything. And, and so it was, it was interesting, even though we didn't speak the same language, we'd, we'd sit there and we'd kind of make motions and, and we, we'd be able that, I mean, talk about fitting in, in a, a culture that, that isn't yours or in, in a environment that's not yours. Like we didn't even speak the same language, but we still were able to, uh, communic.

Tim: 58:32

Roughly doing a very human thing. Yeah. Right. There's, there's three things that every human does. Breathe, eat, and poop. Yeah. So Eating's the

Scott: 58:40

one we can share, right? Right. Exactly. And so, so we, we were able to do that together. And it, it was, it was just interesting to kind of, it sort of get to know the, the people and, um, you start to learn a couple words in their language. They learned a couple English words and, and when you'd see them walking around the base or whatever, you, you'd just say whatever the word was. And, and, and at least like you had that little bit of a connection. And so it, it, it was interesting, uh, to, to experience that.

Tim: 59:11

And I think that's the, one of the more powerful things that comes outta service for a lot of guys is that exposure to things that aren't your normal. Also, we're, we're coming up on the end of time. Is there, like, is there one thing that you wish more civilian guys knew from the lessons you got outta the military that we haven't covered?

Scott: 59:30

Um, you know, I, I think the, the people that I've talked to who are not veterans or not service members themselves, um, I think their view of the military is very much what Hollywood portrays it as. And they don't understand that there's a lot of times it's very monotonous and that there's a lot of, there is a lot of downtime, there's a lot of hurry up and wait. There's a lot of, um, things that you just don't see. And so, uh, I think Hollywood glamorizes it quite a bit. Um, and not, not to say that there aren't those moments that Hollywood portrays, um, but it's not, but no one's watching a movie. No one's watching a movie about a quiet 12 hour shift, right? Yeah. No, no one's. Watching that, that kind of movie where you're just sitting in an observation post and nothing happens for 12 hours and you're just sitting there trying to stay awake and you got 12 cans of Monster, uh, you know, energy drinks on the floor that are empty because that's what you're using to stay awake, to get through. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, God forbid something happens and you go absolutely berserk because you're so hopped up on caffeine. But, um, you know, like, no, no one's making movies about those things. So it's like, yeah, there, there are those moments where, where things are very intense, very chaotic things like Hollywood kind of portrays. Um, but there's a lot of the other side too that nobody really knows about. So, um, not, not to say that it's, it's a bad thing, you know, it's just interesting to me when I talk to people. That have never served or don't really know anyone who served it. It's almost like they're, they're like, oh my gosh, you did all that crazy stuff. And it's like, I mean there was some crazy stuff but it wasn't, and you know, there, there, yeah. A lot

Tim: 1:01:35

of it was just hurry up and wait. Yeah. Next to smelly dudes. Yep. Talking about everything.'cause you rented outta things just look about Exactly.

Scott: 1:01:41

Yeah.

Tim: 1:01:42

Yeah, yeah. I think, uh, one of the things that's come up for me lately around that is the idea that it's really hard to have connection without exposure. And the military, because of its intensity and because of the isolation of it, that exposure to the other people is where, you know, 95% of your time is just with these people that you're serving with and your interactions with them and good, bad, and indifferent. And I don't like you, I wish Hollywood could do a better job of portraying the range of it. But I don't know how to help them do that. You know what I mean? It wouldn't be a good movie. Right,

Scott: 1:02:19

right. Yeah. Yeah. That that's true. Yeah. How, how do you do that? And also make it entertaining, you know?

Tim: 1:02:23

Yeah. I I, I've got nothing. Um, well, and if folks want to learn more, like if somebody listened to this, is thinking about trying the military or has somebody in your life thinking about it, uh, we just put it an episode that I did on the things to pay attention to and look for before you join. And so, uh, take a listen to that. And, uh, at this point in your 500 episodes, do you have any that you would point people to if they were exploring military service? Well,

Scott: 1:02:51

to pick, you know, one or two, uh, out of that large nu number is, is kind of hard. Um, but. What I do have something I, I just launched recently, a couple weeks ago. Um, I do have a, a chat bot on my, my website now. It's, it's a, uh, kind of like a AI tool that I trained it on all the previous episodes that I, I have on the, the show and it's anonymous. You don't have to put your name or email or any kind of crap like that in there, and you could ask it whatever you want about any of the previous episodes. So if you have questions about, um, whether it's joining the military or what it's like to be in service or, um, things to do after service or, or whatever the, the case may, whatever you have questions on, whatever. Burning for you. Um, you can go check it out. It's just a little, uh, red icon on the bottom right of the, the website. So it's, uh, drive on podcast.com and then just click on that button and you can chat away. I don't see what any of the responses are or any of that kinda stuff. So, you know, it's, it's just between you and the computer and, you know, give it a, give it a shot. That's

Tim: 1:04:01

great, man. I'll, I, I will look forward to hearing back on how that, how that's going for folks. Like, I keep thinking about different ways to integrate AI and this stuff, and it feels very fraught to me. Um, well, so as, as kind always right, transitioning back to you, uh, I'm gonna get into some, some of those personal things that we try to get all the guys to share to kind of normalize some of these things. And so what is a truth about masculinity that you learned before you were 12 that's remained true throughout your life?

Scott: 1:04:34

I think the thing for me that I learned early on is. Uh, to do the things that you say you're, you were going to do. So if, if you make a promise to somebody or, or you say, you know, as a kid, you know, yes, I'm going to clean my room, or Yes, I'm going to, you know, do whatever the chores are or whatever do it. Um, if, if you can't do it, say that you can't do it or give, give, like, Hey, I can't do it right now, but I can do it. You know, when I, when I have this other thing cleared up or whatever. Um, but, but with that, I think it, I think it, it comes down to respect for other people. Um, because if you say you're gonna do something and someone's counting on you or relying on you to do the thing that you say you're gonna do and, and you just don't do it, kind of a, kind of a terrible thing to do to somebody else because they're, they might be sitting there expecting that it's gonna be done. Um, they might be relying on it to be able to do the thing that they need to do, and. You know, I've learned this throughout my, my working career as well, that if you say you're gonna get a project done by such and such date, well somebody else is probably sitting there waiting for that project to be done in order to take it and move on and, and do something else with it. And if, if you're not able to do that, then you're kind of letting not only that one person, but maybe even a bigger team down. So, um, so doing what you said you're, you would do, I think to me is one of those things that I, I learned early on and I've yet to find an occasion where that's not true.

Tim: 1:06:14

No. And it really lines up with a thing that's really developed in my time of hearing these stories is that when, when you're a young man, your masculinity is largely based on privileges. Are you big? Are you strong? Are you smart? Are you handsome? But the one thing that starts to happen as you hit adulthood and midlife is masculinity is around competencies and. You are not competent to follow through on something, it's really hard for people to respect you as a man. And the other thing I see is guys, when they, when they get used to telling people things and not following through in their own mind, they become the man that isn't reliable. And so it's not just that it's on these other people, it's that you're breaking kinda promises with yourself along the way. Yeah, sure. And that, that has more of an impact that I think people fully understand.

Scott: 1:07:08

Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, I also think like, kind of tied in with that is, is um, doing, just having integrity in general, like, you know, doing the right thing even when nobody's watching, you know, do do the work even if nobody's gonna know that you got the work done or, um Exactly. You, you'll know that you did or didn't do it. And that does have an effect on you. And, and so. I guess having integrity overall, it's probably like the, the bigger overarching theme there.

Tim: 1:07:41

Yeah. It's just a good homework of adults and I think for most guys our community engagement is a little rigid, and so having even a self-defined structure is huge. So next one that we ask everybody is what's a time where pursuit of your masculinity has hurt you? I think,

Scott: 1:08:01

uh, something that we talked a little bit about, uh, earlier, uh, is where I felt the need to just kind of handle everything on my own. Um, where that, yeah. Um, it, it just felt like weakness to be able to, or to have to talk to somebody else to get the help that I needed, uh, to, when I got back from my deployment, we went through these mandatory mental health screenings and. Quite frankly, I lied through my teeth when I went through the, the screening because first off, I was home. I wanted to spend time with my family. I didn't want to spend even an hour a week going to some therapist's office and, and go talk to that person because that's just time away from my family who, who I was just away from, you know? And I just got back like, no, I don't wanna spend more time away from them. I wanna be back with my family. Uh, I had a newborn son at home and like, I didn't even know him. I, I wanted to get to know my kid and, and all that stuff too. So, um, you know, it's, um, it's that just being tough and, and being tough no matter what, and, and trying to just grin, bear it and deal with whatever the, the suck is that you're going through. And yeah, the, of course there, there are times where you have to, you know, we use the term embrace the suck and, and you have to do that. Um, but you also have to know when to kinda let that go. And, and for me, um, that was, that was something that was really hard to learn. And, and when I eventually did learn it, it was like, uh, this huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. Like, not that someone else was gonna carry the weight for me, it's just like they kind of showed me how to carry it better. It's like when, uh, the first time you ever wore a ruck sack and you're not wearing it the right way, and the weight's all distributed, all, all jacked up and everything. And then someone who's a little more experienced, like shows you how to, how to tighten the straps and, and make it so that it kind of carries that weight a little bit better. It feels like you're wearing a lot much lighter rux act than, than what you were, uh, you know, originally trying to deal with. So, um, you know, so that's kind of the way I saw going to therapy. The, the very first time, um, you know, when I, when I realized I, I needed to, um, I, I. I made a phone call to make an appointment and I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I, I didn't know if I, like, I was gonna walk into that appointment and there was gonna be a padded room with a straight jacket, or I, I had no idea. Um, we keep 'em in the closet. Yeah. Just, just in case, you know, just, just in case, you know, you know. But I, I had, I had no idea and I, I had no real, uh, previous experience with any sort of therapy personally. And so to me it was like, it was pretty scary. It was like, what am I really getting myself into here? I didn't know, but I, I knew I needed it. I needed something.'cause whatever I was doing wasn't working. So, so that, um, that kind of masculine mindset of just suck it up, deal with it, handle it yourself, that, that type of thing, it, it wasn't working for me. And it, and it, and it not only hurt myself, but it hurt the people who work around me

Tim: 1:11:18

as well. And no, this one, this one's come up in a few places. It's that like some guys need to be told, they need to learn how to suck it up. And some guys need to be told, you really don't have to do that all the time. And I think everybody kind of throughout their life, uh, you kinda bounce back and forth, but so many guys get stuck on the, suck it up and deal with it, that that masculinity is that strength to be the guy that can suck it up instead of recognizing that being that guy doesn't mean being that guy all the time. No one's infinite in their capacity.

Scott: 1:11:50

Yeah. There, there's, I think, think with everything, there's, there's kind of a balance between how much you're supposed to suck it up and deal with it, and when you're supposed to get the help, because yes, I can swim, but I'm not gonna swim across the ocean. You know, I, I would need a lot of help to be able to do something like that. You know, my floaties aren't gonna get me there. No, no. That's, that's, I'm getting lost somewhere along the way, so. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, knowing when something's too much. And when you need, need to ask for help, I, I think that's, that's an important piece that a lot of guys need to learn. Yeah.

Tim: 1:12:27

Well, I I love that. I'm, I'm really curious to hear where this one goes. What's a time where your masculinity empowered you?

Scott: 1:12:35

Well, I, I think, uh, kind of a, a masculine mindset of which is something that you, you brought up earlier of being, um, you know, a, a provider or a protector or, or those types of things, um, is something that made me feel, um, especially after getting back from my, my deployment, um, made me feel like I had a, a purpose even in my own home. Um, and, and what I mean by that is, uh, my, my son who I, I mentioned, uh, my, my oldest son, he was born about a month or month and a half or so before I was deployed and. So I was used to life with just me and my wife when we were living together. And yeah, she sure she was pregnant, but, um, you know, we didn't have a baby that was waking up at two o'clock in the morning. We didn't have to change diapers or do any of that kind of stuff. It was just us. And, and we did, we were kind of carefree in that regard. We, we could do whatever we needed to. And then I went away on deployment and my wife kind of figured out the routine at home, how to take care of the baby and how to continue living life and doing all the things that you need to do at, at home. And she had it locked down. She, she was super, uh, super great with all of the parenting stuff and keeping the house in order and all, all the things that, that needed to be done at home. And so when I came home, I kind of felt like, what, what am I even doing here? She's, she's already got it all figured out. What is my, my place here? And. When I realized that my, for me, I, my role was to provide for the family to be there to protect them so that they can do the things that they need to do without worry of where, where's the next meal gonna come from? Where, where's, where's money gonna come from to keep the lights on? Where, where's, uh, money gonna come from for clothes or, or any of the other things that, that people might need. Um, you know, I, I felt like that's where I, that's where I can contribute to this household. And so I found a great deal of purpose in that, uh, to, to be able to provide for them and, uh, and I, I say protection and of course there's, there's that physical protection, but even just protect them in, in terms of knowing that we're safe, knowing that we, we have a safe place to come to in our home, and that it's, it's not going to be, um. Terrible at home. And, um, you know, where I, I prefer to be out on the, on the street somewhere rather than coming back home to dad, who's just absolutely insane. You know? So, um, so providing that stability. Exactly. So, so that to me was, was something that, um, I didn't realize I needed, but I, I, I kind of figured out along the way, I, I needed that, not only for, for them to, to provide for them, but I needed that for myself as that, that kind of became my sense of purpose and like, my, my meaning and, and what I was contributing to my own family. Um, where, you know, I, I came home and I, I didn't know where I fit in.'cause she already figured all this stuff out. You weren't gonna out mom, mom? No. Oh God, no. She already had, she already had plenty of experience, uh, you know, on me. And even if she didn't, she'd be better at it than me anyways. But, well, I think that's, that goes

Tim: 1:16:09

back to that ideal of the. The provider role is important for a lot of guys because of exactly what you're talking about. If we've got the right support, this is the support that I'm gonna give. And it doesn't mean that you don't hug your kids, right? But it does mean that your focus is on making sure there's some way they're getting hugs,

Scott: 1:16:27

right? Yeah, yeah. And, and getting hugs and not being worried that they're, they're gonna do something to piss me off and, and it's going to set me off and, and, you know, have me blow a fuse or something, you know, because, because they said the wrong thing or did the wrong thing or whatever. Like, you know, I, it was a couple months ago, my, my son, he was, uh, swinging the baseball bat in the backyard. He was just, just practicing in the, the bat. Slipped out his hand, went through a window, and he was like, so nervous because he, he was like, oh my god, mom and dad, they're, they're gonna kill me. Oh my God, this is awful. And so he came in and he told us, he, you know, he did the right thing, told us about it and everything. And, and, uh, my, my reaction was like, well, are you okay? You know, did you get hurt or anything? And he's like. Whoa, wait a minute. They're not gonna kill me. I think I'm in the clear here. You know, so it was, it was like just a relief to him that, that it's like, I'm not in trouble. Like accidents happen. I, I get that and, um, I, I won't do that again. I, I would, I would prefer it if he never did it, but at the same time, I'm glad that he was, he was okay. He didn't, you know, cut himself on the glass or, you know, anything like that. Yeah. He, he just, it was a mistake and, and things happened. So, um, you know, next time don't swing a bat near a window and, you know, we'll be good.

Tim: 1:17:44

I feel like that's the, that's a very natural lesson to learn that doesn't need a screaming parent to reinforce it.

Scott: 1:17:50

Right, right, right.

Tim: 1:17:51

Yeah. That's great, man. Uh, well, if people were looking for that, that website, for you to find that chat box, to go through the back catalog of all the great guests you've had Yeah. Where would they find you?

Scott: 1:18:02

Yeah, it's, uh, drive on podcast.com is is the website. And, and if you're looking just to, uh, you know, check out the, the podcast itself, you can find drive on, uh, podcast on any of the, um, any of the, the platforms that have podcasts and YouTube and all that. So, um, social media, it's all, uh, at Drive on podcast. And, uh, but yeah, the website would probably be the best place to start. And, uh, again, that, that chat bot is just a, it's a little red icon on the bottom, bottom corner of the, uh, the screen. And, uh, and yeah, you can ask all sorts of questions and it'll give you a list of episodes that, that might, uh, might help you out with with those, uh, those questions that you might have. Thanks, man. I'm glad

Tim: 1:18:42

that's there. And I'm kind of curious, I'm gonna follow up with you to find out how that chat bot is going.'cause I'm really curious. I think that's a good idea, especially with that kind of back catalog man, like Google's not.

Scott: 1:18:50

Dinging that Exactly. And I, I figured, like, I, I just had so many episodes and I, I wanted to do something more with it and I didn't really know what, like, I, I wasn't, I've already written a book and I'm not really, I don't think I have another one in me right now, so I didn't think I was gonna do that. But, um, I, I was, I was thinking of a kind of a, a, a, a way that it can be useful for people without having to cost some ton of money or anything like that. So, so we'll see. We'll see how it goes in, you know, a few months. If, if it's not really all that useful and I, I thought it was a good idea, then maybe I take it down. But if, you know, leave it up for a few months and see how it goes. Sounds like it was something fun to play with, regardless. It was, yeah. I'm kind of a geek

Tim: 1:19:29

that way, so, yeah. Alright. Well thanks so much for coming on, man. I really appreciate you. Yeah, you bet. And that's our conversation with Scott from the Drive on podcast. We're so lucky he was willing to share his years of experience in these conversations to help us better understand where masculinity can learn from our military service. As always though, there are a few things that need a little clarity and we like to fact check around here. The first one we're gonna talk about is scarcity mindset versus abundance mindset and creative and audience-based work. The idea gets thrown around a lot in business and self-help spaces. So I wanted to add some precision to it. As a general rule, it's usually healthier. And more effective to operate from the assumption that there are enough people who can benefit from what you do, rather than seeing every other creator or professional as competition. For a tiny pool of attention, the frame matters. Because scarcity thinking narrows focus. It pushes people towards comparison, defensiveness, and short-term wins often at the expense of long-term impact and collaboration. Now, that doesn't mean that attention or money are infinite. There are real contexts, especially in business where competition exists and choices matter. Abundance isn't denial of limits. What it does mean is this. When you orient towards contribution, competence, and service, you tend to build stronger networks, better work, and have more sustained outcomes than when you're driven primarily by fear of being replaced, overlooked. And socially. This matters. We're living in a moment where connection is fragile. Approaching your work and your relationships from a non-zero sum mindset makes cooperation and community more likely. So no vision boards required. Use abundance guide as a frame. Not a fantasy and apply it where it improves clarity, resilience, and impact. The second one is millennials, as parents are creating the safest but most overprotected generation of children that we've ever had. The point's mostly right, but it still needs some context. By almost every public health measure, today's children are safer than any generation before them. Fewer fatal injuries, less exposure to dangerous labor, and more consistent adult protection. Millennial parents deserve credit for that. The unintended cost of that is that kids have fewer chances to fail on their own, less unstructured play, fewer unsupervised problems, fewer moments where they have to figure things out. With an adult stepping in, the trade-offs aren't about parents being soft or weak. It's about a system that rewards safety and punishes risk. Legally, socially, and professionally. Healthy development requires both protection and challenge. Resilience doesn't come from being shielded from difficulty. It comes from facing down difficulty at the right scale. For men and fathers, this reframe strength a bit. It's not just about keeping your kids safe, it's about having the discipline to let them struggle when the stakes are low. So they're capable when the stakes are high. So those are the only two big things that needed some clarification. Otherwise, Scott is a consummate professional and very smart guy. So we did pretty well, and those are the only two things that really need clarification. Scott is a consummate professional. He's been doing this a long time, and so we got most of the things right. As you go forward and you're thinking about the things we discussed today about military lessons and masculinity, what's the primary thing that you're gonna carry forward? Leave it in the comments and let me know. I think it's gonna help other guys hone in on the things that are gonna be most impactful for them by seeing other guys use them. As always, this is Tim Winkey with American Masculinity, thanking you for being here and wishing you the very best day.