Top Therapist: How Men Build Authentic Leadership

Being a man today often means being asked to lead without ever being taught how. Strength is still expected. Responsibility is still assumed. But the models for authority, leadership, and masculinity are increasingly thin, either rigid and domineering or so hands-off they leave men unformed. Many men are left wondering how to hold power without becoming the thing they once feared.

In this episode, host Timothy sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist and leadership consultant Logan Cohen. Logan’s work involves working with traumatized youth in wilderness therapy. His current role is developing leaders in high-pressure industries. Together, they explore what healthy masculine leadership actually looks like when safety, trust, and accountability all matter.

This conversation moves through violence and restraint, power and humility, and the difference between domination and authority. Logan shares formative stories, from growing up around abuse and survival, to a pivotal moment in the wilderness where choosing restraint over force reshaped an entire group dynamic. Together, they unpack how men learn to take hits, build resilience, and lead without needing to control.

You’ll hear us break down:

• Leadership without domination: Why fear-based authority only works once, and how trust creates lasting influence.
• Fairness and vulnerability as strength: How consistency, boundaries, and emotional regulation build real loyalty in groups.
• Taking the hit on purpose: Why the ability to absorb pain, without collapsing or retaliating, is central to masculine maturity.
• Wilderness lessons for modern men: What working with violent, traumatized youth reveals about power, safety, and group dynamics.
• False independence vs. earned resilience: How extreme self-reliance isolates men and undermines leadership.
• The window of tolerance: How men expand their capacity for stress, responsibility, and growth without burning out.
• Mentorship and generativity: Why older men are often waiting to be asked—and why younger men need guides more than motivation.

We explore the tension between comfort and integrity, safety and growth, and strength and compassion. This episode isn’t about softening men or glorifying toughness. It’s about forming men who can hold authority without fear, lead others without crushing them, and build lives that are both demanding and meaningful.

The American Masculinity Podcast™ is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and men’s advocate.
Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, growth, and how men can show up better — as partners, leaders, and friends.
We focus on grounded tools, not yelling or clichés. If you have questions or want a tool for something you're wrestling with, leave a comment or send a message — your feedback shapes what we build next.
Note: While this doesn’t replace therapy, it might help you notice something worth exploring.

Transcript

TIM: 0:00

You started out as a kid that was kinda a roughneck and then that led you to go help kids that you saw some of that part of yourself in, and now you are making leaders, which is the hallmark of the best leaders.

AI VOICEOVER: 0:12

Logan Cohen is a trauma therapist and childhood abuse survivor who spent years rehabilitating violent teens in the wilderness.

Logan: 0:18

My grandfather was a, uh, Holocaust and his six other siblings and both parents shipped out to Auschwitz. K*lled. So I had this really strong juxtaposition really early of what oppression looks like and then what a stance of integrity and courage without dominance. And there was a apparent bully in my household, pinned me in this location, and was engaging me in the submission ritual that had always worked to force my compliance historically, and I realized that I was a little bit bigger now and that I could make this way more difficult for them. I did fought my way out, and the dynamic started changing. After that, I could force independence if I needed to.

TIM: 1:01

Some of the young guys I work with, their big challenges, they've never had an opportunity for anything like that moment. They've had complete unearned safety. When you're working with those guys, how do you get some of those lessons to them? I think that's a really powerful frame for seeking the support that you need in your life for these things. What about the guys that are looking to make an impact on younger men? You're here for a reason

Logan: 1:25

and you always have been. It's even your destiny to do this. Who are you to keep yourself from the world? Who are you to keep yourself from? T need you, come join us.

TIM: 1:38

Hey Logan. Thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate you being here. Thanks. Have me. Can you, uh, tell folks a little bit about why you're qualified to talk about, uh, leadership and what your background is?

Logan: 1:46

My clinical background or my, my, uh, by training, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. Uh, do clinical supervision for the American Association, American Family Therapy, um, as well as a, uh, level two clinical certified trauma professional. I've been working with folks in the field for about 20 years specializing in, uh, supporting couples and families through navigating high conflict situations, um, and either tapping into the leadership within themselves or providing leadership for their families and for their children, um, and, and doing some trauma recovery work concurrent within all of that. Um, in, in the last few years specifically, have developed a company called True North Leadership Solutions, where we create custom leadership development curriculums for corporations and, and most specifically, recently it's been, uh, manufacturing, uh, companies. Uh, interestingly a lot of fun doing that work.

TIM: 2:39

I like that more and more kinda masculine spaces are getting in softer skills for leadership. It's, it's really helpful for me. Yeah, for, for them too. Yeah. Right. Well, what I, what I like about your background, man, is it started. On the individual, right? That's our clinical work is picking apart a person. And then UL MFTs do a really good job of bringing that into a system and seeing all the working parts move and then building on that base to, I mean, it's been consistent. Uh, what's funny is anytime I talk to people about men's clinical work and they start talking about couples work, the big complaint is that, uh, guys going into couples work feel ganged up on, and the people that that happens the least with is licensed marriage and family therapist because your whole training is about how to bring everybody in. Go figure,

Logan: 3:23

right? Like what it's ama. When I do consultations sometimes with folks who. Or I've only trained working with individuals, or I referred someone out to do individual work. Like Yeah, sometimes have them in do conjoint sessions. Like, so how, how frequently is that happening? Like, it started to be every time, like what training do you have to work with couples? Well, none. How's that going? Awful. Okay. Well like, come on. Yeah. Yeah.

TIM: 3:45

Mm-hmm. Yep. Uhhuh every time. So, uh, one of the things you had mentioned too before is the, the wilderness background that you did with, with kids in Appalachia. Can you tell folks a little bit more about that?

Logan: 3:57

Yeah, yeah. For, uh, about three years I worked as a wilderness therapy, um, professional with, uh, adjudicated youth. These were kids coming down from juvenile detention facilities or had they been institutionalized essentially in, uh, foster care settings or in psychiatric residential treatment facilities for a long time. And learning how to, uh, um, live pro socially in a community setting again before going back into the real world.

TIM: 4:27

Yeah. What I, what I'm really curious about that is I hear you talk about going from that to the LMFT, to the group leadership. My mind immediately goes to like, Lord of the Flies, right? Here you are in the mountains with these kids that are dysregulated, have been hurt a lot and probably have a lot of unhealthy dynamics with power and the flexing of power.

Logan: 4:49

Oh, yeah. And, and, and that's, that's where I fell in love with it really. And I, and I, and I realized rather quickly that you have to have this, this, this very delicate, no nonsense balance on each side of being very firm and structured and clear and transparent about what it's, what is expected, the timeframes it's expected in following up, following through with them, and on the other side. And really warm and compassionate and patient with human beings on the, on the other side of that. And, and what that inevitably develops is this very, very high level of trust where folks just know that you're looking out for their interests as well as the interests of the group and everyone being safe and as efficient as possible for getting things done. And when you say jump, they're like, all right, how high? Because they don't have to question your intent.

TIM: 5:41

We talked about military leadership in our, I think it was our fourth episode. The idea of how that kind of direct masculine leadership looks to the public is this, this like aggressive like drill sergeant kind of thing, where that doesn't motivate people more than once. Like that kinda leadership contains things, right? It can stop a problem, but it can't empower a solution.

Logan: 6:03

I would say it only motivates people as, as much as you can actively scare them.

TIM: 6:07

Yeah. I, so the, with the teenagers, I think looking at how teenage boys. It kind of naturally engage, really informs masculinity as a whole because it's kind of our larval straight right before anything gets in the way. All of our cultural ideas, all the pain we've been in, and it just kind of shows up. Like, was there ever a moment where you learned something really profound from one of those kids?

Logan: 6:34

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and it was, uh, particularly one situation where there was a, uh, uh, actually a riot. I'd been there for a year, a year and a half, and, um, a, a group of kids figured out where there was a hunting cabin within several miles of the camp, and, uh, snuck out in the middle of the night and, and ran away at a rendezvous point, broke into the hunting cabin and, um, took all the guns or were gonna come back down and shoot up camp and. All the, the, the rest of the, the kids knew enough about what was going on to be totally freaked out and a riot began, understandably so. So we're all trying to figure out what's going on the story. We eventually able to get enough of the, the story out of a few of the kids and get, um, the, the groups, um, into vans so we could get off property and get everybody safe. And they're like helicopters coming and cops with Malino wa dogs and like all the things. And the, the group that I was in was, at the time was a very like lore of the Flies esque. Like it was, it was, it was very uh, uh, militaristic, hyper-masculine vibe. And, and the group leader, um, liked to, to run the group with that type of mentality. And, and other counselors that had a really hard time intervening in that historically had been there three to four months at this point in that particular group. And we were about 12 hours into that riot. Um, it was, uh, noon one day. The kids hadn't eaten since dinner the previous night. And as saying the, the demographic of this group, what they're, you know, made up of, um, a lot of food insecurities, lot of huge trauma histories, they start getting hungry and start not feeling safe. Stuff gets really, really hairy really quickly. And I was able to coordinate with the program director to get a, uh, um, a, a box of, of just pretty basic food like sandwiches down to my boys. He rolls up in the a TV at the top of the trail head, go up there, grab it, coming back down into the, the little holler, the little valley where we're at. And, um, I'm holding this, this heavy case of food. And the, the group leader saw that my hands were full. He'd been wanting to knock my block off for a while. He, he, he did not like me after meeting his dad a few times, um, I saw why he didn't, it wasn't that he didn't like me, he didn't trust men and he had like, the only way that he knew to, to, to feel in control was to physically dominate them. And he hadn't been able to do with that with me yet up to that point. So he saw that I was in this position where I could not defend myself and sees me see him. We lock eyes and immediately I'm like, oh, this is not gonna be good. Because it is also at that moment like, I'm not letting go of this food. I've got, I've had nine other boys in that group who are like relying on me to, to maintain control over these resources and, and all like, my safety and their safety depended on getting us out there, right? So Holton, this, this, this case of food he walks makes a beeline towards me. Rears back, just cracks. Head goes, have the stars for a minute. I'm just kinda wobbly. Primarily focused on just trying to stay on my feet and keep this, this food and had a really important decision to make, right? Like, am I going to restrain the kid, make myself feel physically safe in the moment with a really high level of guarantee, and then also replicate everything that he's always experienced with More powerful men is it's dog eat dog. And, and whoever can eat is who dominates. Um, so instead I just decided to take the hit. And once I, and, and he's standing there going like could and, and, and also kind of in shock 'cause he was not expecting me to not fight back and. Kind of waiting. I'm, I'm almost like watching him watch videotape of getting his ass kicked by his dad through the years and like what he expects to, to unfold in the next moment. Just look at him and, and by, and there's, there's a look up. There's all the, the, the rest of the boys are just circle around us being like, oh my God, what's about to happen? And I look back at him like, Hey man, are you done? And he is just like, yeah. Like, all right, can you sit down? And he sits down and I look at everybody else. Can y'all sit down? Everybody sits down. I put down the trunk of food, open it up, start passing out sandwiches, and just like nothing had ever happened, right? And because this is not the time and the place. And, and I also realized once I had everybody's attention in that moment, and I could model a willingness to prioritize. The tribe in, in safety over ego and, and, and, and, and the, the love of power that this could, could shift the focus. And inevitably it did. We ate sandwiches, canned fruit, got everyone's blood sugar levels up a little bit. Everyone's got their, their wits about them. They've realized that I was a reliable leader. Um, and after we ate, like, all right, you all ready to go up to the van? Like, yes, we're freaked out. We got to the van, we got to the rendezvous point. Everybody was safe. And it was, it was at that moment where, and in my mind got, got blown a bit being like, wow, you know, like, it'd be great if I didn't have to absorb a sucker punch every time something like this dynamic happened. But the, the, the power of love is absolutely greater than a love of power.

TIM: 12:50

That's what turned me onto it. That sounds like there's two kind of things that I'm thinking of from previous guests that kind of back up that logic in that lesson. One of 'em was, a recent guest we had on was a Marine ma is a Marine major that is also a children's book author and does parenting coaching. And one of the things i I like about him is he is talking about if you take a swing at somebody, the idea that they're not gonna get defensive and swing back is ridiculous. Right? And so if you're in a leadership position, if you're in a position of power and you get aggressive, the idea that somebody's not gonna respond with some kind of force or fall down just doesn't work. And that's what would've happened, right? Like you and that kid might have wrestled, squished a bunch of sandwiches, you'd probably physically overpowered him, maybe, and then the other kids had just been freaked out and feeling unsafe.

Logan: 13:37

It, it would've just kept going, it just kept spiraling. There was, there was, um, there had to be a very different dynamic that was going to disrupt the, the chaos and, and the unsafe feelings and. Really from, from that point forward in the clinical work that I was doing, I, I had a, a penchant for being the guy that was like, all right, so, which, which cases are freaking everybody else out? Like what, what are the hospital rooms that people don't want to go into? Gimme those. I'm ready. Exactly. Exactly. And I was like, eh, a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. Like it was, um, you know, parts of it were probably not the healthiest headspace for, for me to be in

TIM: 14:16

a few of those. I think it's also just being a bigger guy in the field too. I think like one people tend to push us towards that.

AI VOICEOVER: 14:22

Sure.

TIM: 14:23

At least in my experience. And it was just, just a

Logan: 14:25

guy in the field, right. So, so predominantly female. Um, and what I, what I realized is that if you are fair and vulnerable with people, they lose a taste for heartening you pretty quickly. Um. I got, I got, you know, hit uh, in, in the woods of another pad of scar tissue on my arm from a kid biting a chunk of flesh outta my arm. After those days, I've, I've never been attacked and, and I've been in, oh, I put myself voluntarily in a lot of really jacked up situations with people who have a long history of violence and they have interacted it towards me, be because of that stance that I maintain. Mm-hmm.

TIM: 15:11

Well, and it's a, when you don't respond with the fear of it, they don't respond with the push of it. In my experience,

Logan: 15:19

being charged by a dog and just like, Hey, Bob, what's up? Smell me for a minute. We're gonna hang out, Bob. Yeah, yeah,

TIM: 15:27

yeah. Well, another thought that was going through my mind as you were talking about that is you'd also taken a hit before, before that sucker punch, you knew what it was like to get punched to the face and. What the recovery was gonna look like. And I imagine part of you in that moment knew you could take that hit.

Logan: 15:46

I, I did. And I, I was also a rough teenager, um, and ran with, you know, birds of a feather flock together and, uh, had, had familiarity with being in those types of settings. And it's thought at the end of the world, you get, you know, you get popped. Life

TIM: 16:02

continues. Well, I, I think about that a lot when it comes to, like, teaching guys resilience as a rule. You know, there's kind of two ways to live a secure life. One is avoid problems and pain, right? Have a good plan, build a life of security and safety, and that's all great, but then you cannot create a perfect worry, even a perfect safety that fills any kind of fulfilling. On the other end of it, you need to know how to take the hit of whatever's coming. If you're gonna go try a new job out, you need to be able to take the hit of if the job doesn't work out, if you're gonna move, you need to be able to take the hit if it doesn't go. And what I like about that story is that's what you modeled for those kids of like, sometimes you take the hit and get the job done.

Logan: 16:50

Yeah. A willingness to be battle tested and not, not even, you know, sometimes it's physically some, a lot of times it's emotionally or through the experience of failure. It's, it's, um, if, if you get caught up in it being a finite game and you win or lose in life based on that battle, then you completely lose the context of the bigger

TIM: 17:12

picture. You, you need to lose context of the war. I think it's, one of the things I see with younger guys try to step into leadership roles that's kind of hard is that they're, they feel that imposter syndrome because they're leading in places they haven't been before. And I feel like that's the most dangerous place to try to come in as a leader without support because you don't have the security of knowing you can take the hit to get the job done. What do you do with those young guys that are in that position where they're trying, you know, these guys in the manufacturing world where they're trying to step into these leadership places that they haven't taken those hits before?

Logan: 17:46

In the leadership development curriculums that we facilitate, um, it is in, partially in a group setting. And then there's also one-on-one work that happens between each group session. So they learn to take a hit with their first team, with each other, with, with their, their cohort of leaders. Um, not only learn to take a hit, but learn to be warm and kind and patient with each other before taking that out onto the floor. Um, and, and a lot of it really is just about having the opportunity to practice safely. And, and, you know, uh, practice ain't gonna make you perfect, but, but, uh, diligent practice will absolutely make you better. Um, and then I, I tend to also do a lot of reminding folks like, bro, you're, you're already here. Like you, you've arrived, um, you were invited into the, this position 'cause you're ready to be in this position and you might not be able to prepare a, a full menu yet, but the people that are in your charge that you're responsible for leading are hungry. And let's say you, you've got like, all you know how to make is burritos and you got a a, a green Vander day sauce and it's like kind of mild and you got a red, like spicier sauce, like mo caliente. And there are like two different variations of burritos that you know. These people are hungry, just offer them like spicy or mild, and that will be fine for now. Over time, we're gonna make taquitos, enchiladas. It's gonna go down, but for now, just stay in the pocket and stay in the kitchen. We'll get to Kogen.

TIM: 19:29

Yeah. I I, I love that. I, and I, the thing I'm thinking of as you're talking about how you integrate that, like, Hey man, you were picked to be here. You're where you're supposed to be. This is the right way to learn how to do this. I think a lot of guys, just because of all the, the different ways that like entrepreneurship keeps getting pushed at young guys, like, Hey, go work for yourself. Go do it all on your own. It undervalues the structure of support that happens when you're in an organization where you can get the tap right. When someone in a position who has seen leaders develop leaders looks at you and says, I see something in you. I see you can make that burrito. Let's get you in the kitchen.

Logan: 20:08

For sure. And I think it, it also starts leaning into. This almost, uh, um, perverse version of independence that boys and men are socialized to, uh, to champion. It very much fits into, um, what we call today as provider protector, what used to be Hunter Warrior, but it's the, it's the same thing. Um, independence is a, a basic tenet of that. Um, and it tends to get, get bastardized more into this, um, extreme self-reliance and unwillingness to accept constructive feed, uh, feedback and unwillingness to be seen as imperfect. Like, well, well, welcome to the human dance man. Like none of, none of us are, are perfect. Um, and, and, and, and we're, we are fundamentally social animals. Um, so even the folks that go into entrepreneurship. Where, where's your consultation group? Where's your mentor? Like you, you, you wanna go fast, go low, you wanna go far, you go together.

TIM: 21:12

Yeah. It's, it's interesting. I, and Denver's a big tech town, so I end up working a lot with like, tech guys, c-suite guys. And, um, I've had three guys actually make it to public sale over the years that are now, they're, they're doing very, very well. All the ones that make it had a group from the beginning of the project of other people in their position. Uh, usually at least three, if not five different CEOs doing other kinds of work, but in a similar position and a mentor, somebody who's been at it long enough to kind of keep them from losing themselves to the board.

Logan: 21:48

If we could do a really broad research study of how many successful entrepreneurs have seen a process from seed to public sale come up with a a, a really. Heavy, heavy, strong statistic about how many folks did that with, with a village versus individually.

TIM: 22:08

Yeah. I think that's the, it's nice to hear more and more when you're listening to the different content being produced for young guys of the, the push over to community again, you know, rather than this like eighties and nineties story of likes the self-made man, which is just nonsense. Right. You used road to get to school, you didn't build like calm down. Yeah.

Logan: 22:29

That were uphill both ways.

TIM: 22:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm kind of curious now about you man. You, you started out as a kid that was kinda a roughneck out and it, and then that led you to go help kids. That you saw some of that part of yourself in on kind of an individual level and now here we are 20 years later and now you are making leaders, which is, for me, that's the hallmark of the best leaders, right? Good leaders make more leaders.

Logan: 22:57

Yeah, I about it that way. Thank you.

TIM: 22:59

Yeah, walk me through how you built that competence over time and what that ramp looked like from going from like helping people be better in their life and be part of the group to mentoring leaders.

Logan: 23:14

I mean, one, one part is, uh, as a kid, um, I grew up in a household that was characterized with, with, uh, uh, abuse and coercion and, um, then down the street where, uh, where my grandparents lived. And my uh, uh, grandfather was a, uh, Holocaust survivor. He actually, actually worked in os Oscar Schindler's factory in, uh, crack house in Poland. He, he was 12, he was 14 when, when they got, they were able to start working in the factory and his, uh, six other siblings and both parents shipped off to Auschwitz killed. And so I had this really strong juxtaposition really early of what oppression looks like and then what a, what a stance of, um, integrity and, and, and, and courage without dominance look like. Um, it it, it wasn't until after he died where I even learned the stories about working in Schindler's Factory and what, what the rest of that. It was just kind of how he was and how he operated and, and, and modeled those values. Yeah, me too. It probably saved my life. Um, I think I, I would've been a class act asshole if, if, if hadn't grown up around him. That's what was modeled to me. Um, so. As a a, a young person, I was, um, pretty bright. I did well, I standardized testing and I could study for two or three hours on something, skip school all quarter and get a good grade and get to AP tests and, and got into University of Georgia with already a semester of credit and uh, uh, had the highest, um, absentee rate senior year of high school.

TIM: 25:29

Funny enough,

Logan: 25:30

when

TIM: 25:30

you're

Logan: 25:30

that smart in that board, you don't go is Yeah, and, and, and also like, just irreverent. I had this, this basic distrust for institutional authority.

AI VOICEOVER: 25:40

Mm-hmm.

Logan: 25:42

Where if, if folks weren't going outta their way to earn my respect, I didn't give it. And I was pretty direct that I didn't care about the dog and pony show and. So in, in being in the public school system in Atlanta, they were way bigger fish to fry than this little white kid run around who was showing up, making good grades and turning in projects when they were due, and seemed to at least care about doing the work and wasn't actively disruptive when he was here. So they just kinda let me go under the radar and then went to undergraduate school. Uh, I had developed pretty significant addiction, alcoholism stuff. Uh, by that point start, I was 11 or 12 years old. And, um, when I graduated from University of Georgia, uh, that's when I looked around and realized that my friend group seemed to all be dying from overdoses and suicides or going to jail. Um, scared the crap outta me. And, and that's when I went to go work in the woods and I got sober, started living a healthy lifestyle. I had some structure myself, um, and, and started. Recognizing these other rhythms that that worked in, in tribes and with people and strongly, you know, it felt very strongly for, for these young people. And they, they realized I was different too than, than the other authority figures that they'd run into.

TIM: 27:01

Well, that's kind of a, that's an interesting jump man. Like how so that awareness outta college that if I stay with these guys, I'm gonna, it's gonna happen to me at some point. Like, I'm losing guys and inevitably this is gonna happen to me. I need to get outta here. What made you pick hoping teens in the wilderness? Like that's a, that feels like a unique jump for that solution.

Logan: 27:25

Yeah, man, I'm, I'm kinda weird. Uh, I, I was in a careers in psychology class. I was, I was majoring in psychology. I tried to, I did pre-law for a semester, hated it. Did pre-med first semester, hated it. And the, the, uh, psychology study, I always, I would look around, they're like, there are not many dudes here. And like, well, what's going on? But it, it just, like, I got it and it was natural. So I, I continued staying there. I, you know, went to this careers and psychology class and there would be different speakers that would come every week and talk about what they did in the field and what that looked like. And everyone was all just like buttoned up and doing their, their own kind of version of dog and pony show, a lot of cardigans and dude, so many cardigans. And eventually this guy came in with a long beard, EPT hair, rainbow sandals, and a Hawaiian shirt. And, and he was like, Hey, this is what I do. I work in, in, in the woods with at risk youth and doing this for this long and this is what it's about, whatever. And I was just like, I think. I can hang out with that guy. I can, yeah. I can do, like he's, I, I, I, he, he was on the irreverent wavelength. Mm-hmm. Right. So it was like, okay, I can, I, I trust that vibe. Mm-hmm. And I went and checked it out, was able to put 30 days together of clean time to pass a drug test. And having a reason always helps, you know, you know, the, the ones that the research shows, it doesn't, doesn't matter why you decide to change, just that you do. Yep. And develop a taste for it. And, uh, you know, one, once I, I got sober for a while and my own chemistry chilled out and I was living this very deliberate, intentional, uh, uh, healthy lifestyle. And I was in a group and. Had peers and that were also staff that I enjoyed, and we'd go to concerts, go hiking and, and do stuff that, that we love together and have my love and belonging needs met and started finally growing up.

TIM: 29:30

Yeah, I think that the growing up concept there is always really powerful, right? When you make that transition of looking at where you've landed based on other people's direction, I, I feel like that's the pathway from, you know, like birth to your mid twenties somewhere, usually maybe your thirties now it keeps getting extended out where you're just doing what the systems tell you to which there's important lessons in there, right? There's a reason why we do it, but it's that point where you look around and you choose who you want to be with and you join them. That, that adult moment starts to happen for guys.

Logan: 30:08

Yeah. That, that intersection with, with personal agency. It's like, well, I'm like, who's growing? And, and until you take ownership over that, who is who? Who doesn't grow.

TIM: 30:20

Yeah. Well, and it gave you a reason to bring your pain into the world, right, is my guess. Like looking at the psychology understanding, at least that was my experience with behavioral, behavioral health stuff in college was like, this is interesting. Like I wanna understand how these things happen to the world. I wanna understand what happened to me. I wanna understand what happened to my buddies. And then it's looking for people making an impact like you think you can. And like I think both of us were really lucky in that we saw somebody, I don't think a lot of guys studying the field do. So making meaning with that trauma for these kids, how did you go from that to working with whole family systems and couples and more systems work?

Logan: 31:04

I fell in love with the idea of systems work. Working with, with groups in, in, in the wilderness setting. And also grew up in, uh, in Atlanta, Georgia, uh, in a Jewish household where, um, there was enough Jewish folks around that it was fundamentally safe. But at the same time, you know, you go 20 miles in either direction and you're just in rural Georgia, at least at the time. Now it's, Atlanta's spread out so much more. Um, so I, I, I knew that I was also missing a lot, uh, only being exposed to academic material in the region where I had been in deep South and, and I had a healthy respect for specifically, I didn't know what it was, but what, what, what I did not know in other, more progressive regions. Um, and especially when it comes to, uh. The systems and, and the, that shucks the position of egalitarian versus oppressive, uh, um, function and the ways of, of going about doing things. So I looked around for family systems, training programs and like the, the most progressive ones that I could find. I was like, I already grew up in Georgia. Like I got that. I don't need any more of that. Let's go stretch. Yeah. I went the opposite. There were, uh, a few schools in San Francisco and there was one school in Portland, Oregon called, uh, Lewis and Clark College. And the cost of living in San Francisco was ridiculous. So I went to Portland.

TIM: 32:45

Well, and I'm sure after doing a bunch of wilderness stuff, the uh, Portland vibe was kind of in, in alignment. The Pacific Northwest worked. Man, I wish the sun was out a little bit more, but it works. Fair enough. So you essentially chose discomfort. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna stretch. Mm-hmm. It's been a very consistent choice. When does the first time you remember that choice actually working for you? When did that become kind of I'm the guy that does this?

Logan: 33:13

Yeah. There, there was a, um, a moment, uh, as a kid where I was, I was 11 years old and I was, uh, uh, physically pinned in a space you earlier I referred to a abuse and coercion in the household and I hit puberty kind of early. Um, and I got, I grew a little bit, but I put on weight pretty quickly and, and, and thickened up and had a little bit more physical prowess than my peers tend to. Um, and there was a, um, guess. Technically, I guess you'd call them a caretaker, but a, you know, a, a parent and bully in, in, in my household, kind of pinned me in this location and was engaging me in the submission ritual that had, had always worked to, to force my compliance historically. And I realized that I was a little bit bigger now and that I could make this way more difficult for them if I was willing to. And, and I did, you know, fought my way out and the dynamic started changing after that. Um, where, you know, not, not to say that I was any more safe when I was at home, but they, they wanted to pick less fights and, uh, I could, I could force independence if I, if I needed to, but you could make it, uh, a little bit more

TIM: 34:44

costly for them to do so.

Logan: 34:46

And I realized that safety and comfort are absolutely not the same thing. And that that, uh, comfort and integrity are often in juxtaposition.

TIM: 34:57

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a pretty close alignment to my experience as well. Coming up with that. Like your small, they have physical control, and then at some point you get big enough where you can take some back and that power transition is rough. You've taken that knowledge, that incredibly hard earned, very painful lesson, and you've brought it into your clinical work. You're bringing it into leadership. I think one of like my goals with my pain, and it sounds like you share this, is how to get people those lessons without having to go through that. Like I think everybody needs their inflection point. Everybody needs that point where they choose discomfort and it's the correct choice for them to start seeing that as the possibility. But ideally. It's not happening to an 11-year-old pinned against a wall by an adult,

Logan: 35:54

I would not recommend it.

TIM: 35:57

So for the, for the guys listening, right? So many, so many of the young guys I work with, their, their big challenges. They've never had an opportunity for anything like that moment, right? They've had complete unearned safety for their whole life, and they, they feel like they're not a person who can do a hard thing. When you're working with those guys, how do you get some of those lessons to them?

Logan: 36:24

I'd say a, a healthy balance of, of support and challenge, acknowledging the, the wisdom of their previous experiences and how they've learned to be comfortable up, up to that point. And also pointing out how that seems to correlate with their fear of leaving their comfort zone now, and then helping them strategically identify spaces where things are. Maybe three out of 10 anxiety provoking. Like, what, what's your, what's your threshold? How, how of, of exposure for being able to do this without buckling? And how do we help you identify as many of these as you can metabolize, um, so you can start developing a taste for this. And at the end of the day, we absolutely do develop a taste for it. You know, when, when you first, you have your, your first taste of a whiskey or something, it's like, oh my God. Like, is like, why, why

AI VOICEOVER: 37:25

concerns, why what?

Logan: 37:28

And then, you know, it's, um, alcohol does what alcohol does and, and then, and you have enough exposures to it. And he is like, oh, okay. There's a little like cinnamon or there's this like woody Okie thing going on. There's those kinds of nil or whatever. And I think humans really need. And desire a full range of experiences. So you, uh, a Rumi, an old Indian aesthetics that, uh, variety is the spice of life. Not, not just like spices and cooking like fun Indian food, um, right. Uh, as long you manage the heat. Um, is uh, but also a, a range of emotional experiences. Right. And a and a, because at the end of the day we, we know the difference between going to bed good, tired and bad. Tired. Are you tired?'cause you're bored and life is mundane? Are you tired?'cause you left it all out on the field. And I, I'll tell you the kind of, the kind of tired that goes along with sleeping well, and I think listeners would probably know without me even saying, yeah,

TIM: 38:39

I think so. Yeah. I've been, I've been kind of on this kick around the window of tolerance and helping guys find it. That, that sounds like the, the frame you're working in, right? Like when I'm working with an individual guy who's trying to expand that, it's getting them to articulate that window for them. You know, where's something where you can push but also keep pushing, right? And when is the moment to make a push that means you're not gonna be able to push tomorrow appropriate. You know, that, that leave it all on the field moment, I think is absolutely necessary and needed. But I think it goes better when you have like smaller challenges along the way. An achievable pace. A hundred percent. Right? Well, and a built in recovery. And so for, for guys trying to build that out on a, on a leadership, right? Like let's say that one of our listeners wants to go and become a leader at what he does or just has that goal in the future. What are some kind of basic things that you guide young leaders into doing to develop out that window for themselves?

Logan: 39:51

A lot of it's gonna be about starting with the big picture. Like where, where do you wanna get? And then as, as you alluded to, working within window of tolerance, breaking it into short term, medium term, long term goals, you start with long term. And then what, so what, what are the medium term chunks? And then how do we start creating little bite-sized chunks for it? What are timeframes? Uh, how do you build rest recovery into this? Um, let, let's make sure that they're very, uh, relevant for you personally and, and, and embedded within your integrity and your values. So it, it, it stays aligned with your own purpose and it, it, it feels right. They say, um, even when it feels uncomfortable. Um. And, uh, developing a, a rhythm for holding self accountable to those parameters. And at first it would start with me as a coach. So, you know, what, what are these saying on that? This is the date that you said you do this. Are you going about pacing it? What do you need on the back end of it? And just like figuring out how to progress something in the gym. At some point you no longer need a trainer. You figure out what your body responds to. You figure out how much, how many rest days you need. You figure out what your carbon intake needs to be different on higher glycogen need days, you know, continue to cease to get amazed. Like quad focused leg days, dude, like 350 grams of, of carbs. That's what we're doing. That's what's happening. Um, and, and then, but, and then I guess even with that is a lot of times people are surprised by what makes or breaks that process, right? Because. No matter how much drive I have to get something done on a quad focused leg day, if there's not enough done in the kitchen to feed my musculature before and after that, good luck. The I'm, I'm not gonna be able to walk for the next two or three days, and I'm gonna be in the, in the, in the weight's not gonna progress as we go. Oh, it's building all these pieces in to be sustainable and actually allow the, the person to develop that taste for it.

TIM: 42:06

Yeah. I think the, there's three things in there that, that align incredibly well with the things I suggest. The, the gym analogy. I think one, we always feel better when we move, right? Like every health outcome, every mental health outcome, some kind of exercise, we, we are persistence hunters, humans gotta move. What's interesting is the, like figuring out where someone is on that, right? Like, I work from everything from former military guys and athletes to uh, you know, call of Duty warriors. Who haven't moved from the couch in like five years and building that window of tolerance for them, you know? But then the thing that I'm hearing there as well is making room to fail. Like, as you try, can you take the failure of this attempt? And that doesn't mean that it won't suck. It doesn't mean that it won't hurt like a goggin. Yeah. Embrace the suck.

AI VOICEOVER: 42:59

Um, guy's a maniac,

Logan: 43:01

right? Yeah. Maybe not, not pure Goggins, right? But there's some things he says

AI VOICEOVER: 43:04

where I'm like, all right, I, I can dig that. As you know, he's, he's great. He's inspired a lot of people. I'm not ragging on man. I'm just like, good lord, the men's a maniac. Unless you have the same DNA for his ligaments,

Logan: 43:15

like, good luck. The game is how close can you stay to failure consistently while still recovery? Right? And, and the, the, the more you're willing to go there, while also can handle it. Physically and emotionally, the faster your curve is gonna be. But, and within that you gotta be honest with how much you can physically and emotionally handle it.'cause if, if you can't, you're gonna get injured or you're gonna crack

TIM: 43:48

well, that was, that was always my biggest failures was the anytime that I've tried to make a push on something big on my own, I do pretty well for a while. Like I tend to be really high achieving very quickly. And then the crash happens. And what's changed it over the course of my life is having people around as a mirror. You know, like I'm, I'm good at push, I'm good at putting my head down, but I'm need people around me that care enough that I, and that I trust to be able to say, this is what I'm doing. They're like, Hey, have you, you know, rested? Or, Hey, you sound like you really need this to work. Are you okay? Um, and I think that's the other thing I see with the younger guys trying to build it is they think that they should have that awareness without anybody helping 'em find it takes a village man. Yeah. And

Logan: 44:40

what, what we were saying before it, it doesn't work without it. Yeah. You might, you might go fast initially you got no. Yeah,

TIM: 44:48

yeah. Well, what's the, the line, if you wanna go somewhere fast, go by yourself. If you wanna go somewhere far, go go with a group. That's a one. Yeah. Yeah. So it seems like the kind of, if, if we're looking at guys trying to develop out these skills, it's either find a system that you can join that has some mentorship, has some frameworks, some, some guidance where you can get the tap and you can progress. For the guys that don't have that, what have you seen work for them to find that village to build it in?

Logan: 45:20

Um, you, you have to be willing to, to look. It's, it's not. Very seldom is it gonna just fall in your lap. Um, you know, the think, even think about the, the hero's journey concept where, uh, receiving the call, um, now in Lord of the Rings, the call came with the guide, Gandalf, Hey, it's time to go on this journey right now. That's pretty distinct to that particular fantasy story. The, the, the call very seldom if ever comes from the guide. Um, you have, you have to go seek that out. And if you're willing to work hard and seeking it out, and you're humble to the truth that they can provide, they will emerge. Um, and, and at, at some point, you almost have to have a radical level of, of faith. That the, the cosmos will, will, will present you with that. Um, now what tends to be especially tricky about that for men is kinda what we were talking about earlier in this, uh, bastardized sense of independence comes to extreme self-reliance where, uh, I find that a lot of men feel like it's a, a weakness to ask for help or it makes them look stupid or, you know, some, some version of, of shame and not man enough. And the, the fact of the matter is, is that the right space or the right guide won't see it as that. And if you ask or seek in the message that you get is shame base and condescending. I don't really care what the content of what they said, what they told you through process is that they're not the one. And that's all you need to know. Just take it on the chin. Go keep looking. As, as long as you're, you're, you're willing to suspend a bit of your, your own ego. What's required to

TIM: 47:32

actively seek. So look for that balance of truthful information and kindness, not just critique. I, I think that's a really like powerful frame for seeking the support that you need in your life for these things that it's a supporting challenge. Flip sides of the same coin, one can't exist without the other. And so for my listeners, it tends to be, uh, kinda young guys starting out or guys trying to step into like mentorship, right? And how we're having fewer and fewer options professionally for that. And that's been where like our fathers got that fulfillment out of, right? And younger guys aren't really having it as much. For the guys that aren't necessarily doing this professionally, but they wanna bring that mentorship in, they want to find people looking for a guide. What do you say to them? Go ask a boomer. Right?

Logan: 48:33

Can I And I say that. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're all retiring. Yeah. Yeah. And one aspect of just the, the human psyche of, of their level of maturity, and they look at the trajectory that they're on, even just chronological maturity with like their age and getting closer to death is something that human beings desire as they're about to reach their own expiration date is to live on in others. Right. That Eric Erickson called it generativity. Right? So a lot of times these individuals who are getting close to retirement or maybe who have a couple years of retirement under their belt and are a little like. You know, thinking back in the good old days or when I found a value, do I have to offer, they, they still want to be of value to their community and they, they, um, they want those parts to live on. So, you know, be be willing to go ask, um, some, some old timers, uh, if, if they would be willing to provide you that kind of be in that space with you. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the, the ratio of them that that would be, they've the time excited by that. The time. Yeah. Yeah. They've got

AI VOICEOVER: 49:47

the time.

Logan: 49:48

You've got the

TIM: 49:48

time. So I, I think that's really solid. Right. And I, and I, getting the cross generational wisdom back into things is, is wonderful. I feel, I feel like we lost a lot when the boomers didn't do a good job of getting the Xers to join the service organizations. Where we lost the, the moose lodges, the VFWs, the, like, there were two generations where guys just didn't kind of join those. And so I think there's something we can rebuild with that. What about the guys that are kinda middle life and looking to make an impact on younger men? Like I, Scott Galloway recently made a call on his book and his work to, if you're a man in the world and you're not doing something to improve the younger people's lives directly, you are not a good man. You are failing in the world. And I, I really like that mission statement, right? I think we need way more of it. What have you seen work for those guys? All humans? Yeah. If you're not,

Logan: 50:52

you don't have to recreate the wheel. Take a look at nonprofit organizations or volunteer organizations in your immediate community that have mission statements. That you resonate with, there would be several different ways that you could engage. One, just start with a little bit of volunteering and engagement with boots on the ground. Make sure that these folks are actually practicing what they preach and that, that you resonate with, with what they're actually fundamentally functionally doing. You know, beyond the mission statement, if you have a, already have a really high level of confidence in that, how, how do you get involved in their board? Um, how, and if you go into these spaces and just start operating within the system, you're gonna be tapped sooner rather than later to be in a position of leadership and you don't have to reinvent it yourself.

TIM: 51:43

I think that's probably some of the most cogent advice around these kinds of things. Like, uh, I imagine in your work, just like mine, you've seen a lot of nonprofits and nonprofit always kinda has the same life cycle where one person comes in says they wanna solve a problem, it's all ego, and then that eventually collapse was when they burn out. I think that's for guys we're particularly susceptible to that because of that hyper independence that like I see something, I see a problem to fix it as instead of taking that pause and saying, okay, I see a problem, I wanna fix it. Who's doing that already? Where can I go learn and how to join all that. And I think it also takes the pressure off of you to build something out of nowhere. You know, this isn't like an afterschool special. Kids aren't playing outside bunch anymore. It's not like you can be mowing your lawn and see a kid that needs some guidance walk by. It's just not where it happens anymore.

Logan: 52:34

No, un unfortunately. And the too many places where it's super safe for kids to be walking by like that.

TIM: 52:42

Well I, I dunno if it's not super safe for them, it's just no one has any faith that it could be. So if there was one last thing that you'd want guys that are looking to kind of take their story and turn it into leadership like you have, what would you want 'em to know? So

Logan: 53:00

we need you, man. You're here for a reason and, and, and you always have been. I would say it's even your destiny to do this. Who are you to keep yourself from the world? Who are you to keep yourself from us? Our children need you. Don't join us.

TIM: 53:19

For me, when I hear these things, it's a, a big part of what's been missing is the invite and the acceptance of the power of joining. Yeah. I, I really love that sentiment. So you've been really generous with your story through the whole episode, man, I, I can't thank you enough for how vulnerable you've been with that. Uh, we always kind of come to the end of the episode with three questions to kind of get to, to know your journey with masculinity a little bit and normalize that for the other guys as well. And so to kind of close things out, the first question is, what's the truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12, that's remained true today.

Logan: 53:58

The power of love. Power of connection in, in the grand scheme is, is way more powerful than the, the love of power. It might, the love of power might burn hot and burn quick, but it's, it's going to clog up your gears real quick. If, if you wanna have longevity, you wanna go to bed good, tired. If, um, even heroes get remembered,

TIM: 54:28

legends never die. You've told a lot of stories about how you've overcome the various things, but I imagine just like all of us, when we're exploring our younger selves and try to figure out how to be masculine, when, you know, all of that's just starting to bud, what's a time where that pursuit of masculinity has hurt you?

Logan: 54:47

Man, I, I lost a lot of years of personal development in friends to drugs and alcohol. Um. Using drugs and alcohol to numb myself from fear and pain. Uh, the belief that it made

TIM: 55:09

me less of a man Yeah. That, that need for being stoic and needing the numbness to do it.

Logan: 55:17

Yeah, because you're, you're watching this or listening to this, you know, you've, you've heard my voice crack a few times. You've, you've seen my eyes. Water doesn't change who I am. It doesn't change the experiences that I've had or the wisdom that I have or how no nonsense. I can also be, um, you know, I think Bruce Lee had, uh, um, be like water, right? And now the power of water. But if, if, if you can't also be flexible and be resilient and lean into those parts of human emotional life and you can't be like water, you'll be like ice. You're gonna track

TIM: 55:57

and. Certainly went through this moment and I think most guys can relate to it where you're watching from the outside what a man is doing and he seems stoic, he's doing a hard thing and seems stoic. And so the presumption is that you need to be like that on the inside. And what you don't know is that he's not not feeling the things he's going through, it's that he knows he can handle the things he's going through and using that to propel him forward and, and I think that's why it's so powerful to see guys like you express that coming through all your trials and tribulations, bringing that into the world to do better for people and be able to express that. I hope it gives some of those guys that are stuck in that space where they think they have to be that cool bearing inside and outside some hope. So the last one, we always like to try to go out on a high note. What's a time when your masculinity empowered you? I think

Logan: 56:57

I that tend to be folks, assume that I won't be good at soft skills. Mm. Just because I'm a dude, like a shaved head. Like I, you know, you look a little scary, you know, and, and I got like blue eyes and, and I mean, must sometimes when I'm walking outta the shower, I look in the mirror walking by, I'm like, ha, you know who that, um, like, I, I get it. And um, I get from that underdog position and, and the soft skills, um, I hope people feel comfortable with me and with themselves that much more quickly 'cause they were not expecting that from, um, so, you know, use it if, if, if people just. Assume that you're not gonna be good at some things when realistically you've done the work to develop those parts of yourself and be really integrated. Um, you catch a lot of people off guard with it and, and, and make a lot more impact with it.

TIM: 57:59

Yeah. Leveraging that, the kind of masculine presence you have in the way that people respond to that, to connect and accepting that surprise as a bridge, that's powerful. Sure. This has been, yeah, this has been my favorite part about doing this, man, is getting to talk to other guys in the world doing good things, and I can't tell you how happy I am. You're in the world doing what you're doing. So thank you for that. My pleasure. If people were looking to work with you and find you. What would be the best way for them to do that?

Logan: 58:30

You can find my, uh, coaching practice@logancohen.com, like my name. Um, and you can also find, if you're interested in the consulting work that I do, you can, uh, find that at uh, t north

TIM: 58:44

solutions.com. Well, I hope the guys that need it find you, man. I think you're gonna help a lot of people. And that's our conversation with Logan. I'm exceedingly glad we got to share his insights and story today. As always, we fact check what we discuss, and there are three points that need a little bit more nuance today. First, the vast majority of the time, fairness and vulnerability, are the right focus when leading. But that assumes the person you're engaging with still values, connection, and shared norms. So, discernment, boundaries and learning to recognize when someone is not interested in connection or norms. Is key to both being safe and effective. In my experience, that's a rare situation, but it's important to be able to spot, and that's something that comes with time and practice. Second, when we talk about the idea of taking the hit, that's not a call to ignore risk or stop planning. The point is about capacity. Knowing you can recover when things don't go as planned. Preparation and resilience go together, planning reduces unnecessary damage and resilience keeps you oriented. When plans fail. It's a tricky balance. So we have an upcoming episode focused specifically on the window of tolerance framework. Which helps put that balance into a more practical structure. Third, a quick clarification on the spice of life idea. Rumi was a Persian poet, not an Indian, but his work strongly emphasized transformation through the full range of human experience. So he aligns with the underlying sentiment, the specific phrase, variety is the spice of life isn't his. It's attributed to William Cowper from his poem, the Task in 1785. What's interesting is that Indian aesthetic philosophy, Rumi's work in cowper's writing, all arrive at a very similar conclusion through different traditions. That kind of convergence is usually a good sign that an idea has broad human value. If this conversation sparks something for you, I'd be curious about what part of it. Challenge to clarify you thinking. Feel free to leave a comment. It might help another guy find what he needs. This has been the 37th episode of American Masculinity. I'm Tim Winneke. Thanks for being the guy trying to do better for yourself and the people around you. We'll see you next time.