Breaking Barriers: IVF Access, Military Advocacy & Policy Change with Ellen Gustafson

In this eye-opening episode, Kerri talks with Ellen Gustafson, co-founder of the Military Family Building Coalition (MFBC), about the glaring gap in Tricare’s infertility coverage—and what it will actually take to change it.

Ellen shares her personal IVF journey, and how she and her co-founders launched MFBC with one bold goal: to solve the problem of fertility access for military families—and then shut their nonprofit down. Why? Because IVF and fertility care should be covered by Tricare, plain and simple.

This episode breaks down:

• Why Tricare’s current system is failing military families
• The bureaucratic hurdles keeping IVF and ART (assisted reproductive technology) out of covered care
• What it takes to get Congress to act: storytelling, grassroots advocacy, and pressure from organized voices
• The difference in fertility benefits between veterans and active duty (and why it’s still not enough)
• How MFBC creatively secures free fertility services for military members—like sperm preservation and care navigation

Together, Kerri and Ellen pull no punches: Tricare is outdated, the military’s message of “supporting families” is hollow without fertility coverage, and the burden of treatment costs (often exceeding $100K out-of-pocket) is pushing service members to the brink.

Policy change is possible—but only if military families, providers, and allies speak up. MFBC is connecting the dots between advocacy, access, and action.

🧠 Topics Covered:

• How Tricare ignores modern family-building needs
• Why “support the troops” rings hollow without real reproductive healthcare
• What Congress needs to hear to include IVF coverage
• Ellen’s journey through IVF as a military spouse
• Grassroots organizing in the military community
• Matching military families with free fertility services
• The goal: full coverage, no need for nonprofits

If you’re a military family affected by infertility—or an advocate ready to fight for reproductive justice—this episode will fuel your fire. Listen, share, and demand better from the system.

👉 Visit www.mindfulwarrioralliance.org to learn more, connect with our mission, or make a donation to support military families navigating infertility. Every dollar helps us fight for coverage, care, and change.

Transcript

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Hi, I'm Carrie bge, military spouse, licensed therapist, and founder of Mindful Warrior Alliance. Welcome to the Mindful Warrior Alliance Podcast, your go-to space for real conversations around mental health IVF, fertility and military life. Each week we connect with leading experts, service members, male spouses, and thought leaders to bring you tools, insights, and stories to support your journey. Whether you're navigating deployment, fertility treatments, or just trying to stay grounded, you're in the right place. Here we go. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Mindful Warrior Alliance podcast. And I am so excited to have our guest here today, Ellen Gustafson. I'll let her give her introduction, but she is, uh, an amazing advocate in the fertility space. She's the co-founder of the Military Family Building Coalition. She is in my backyard now, so I'm so excited since moving to Northern Virginia and DC uh, hopefully have the opportunity to meet up with Ellen in person. Um, and yeah, so welcome to the podcast, Ellen. I'm so excited to have you here. Thanks for having me, Carrie. I'm so glad you're doing this. This is awesome. Yes, yes, yes. We were just chatting before we started recording. I had a meeting with, um, her counterparts, Katie and Kendall, and I didn't get a chance to meet Ellen during that meeting. So now this is my opportunity to fully connect with Ellen and hear her fertility story and just. The reason, um, you know, why she wanted to start the, you know, the nonprofit that you guys are running at this point. So, yeah, I guess we'll kind of start there. Give a little bit of an introduction to folks who maybe not know much about the, the coalition and the work that you do and who you are. And that'll be kind of our intro into, into our first starting point. Yeah, yeah. I'll talk about the organization first. So. Um, Katie and I co-founded this organization, um, actually kind of during the pandemic of all times to like start something. But, um, we, we had both, uh, triumphed in our, our journey with, um, IVF twins and once they were born and we kind of felt like, okay, you know, we had, um, accomplished our own personal goals. The two of us had met in an environment where. We were the people that, um, our community members were going to to talk about IVF because we were public about having gone through IVF. Um, and I could tell my personal story about that later. But essentially we realized that there was no organization, um, that was taking on this issue of the lack of fertility coverage and care for active duty military families. There was a lot of emphasis on the veteran community. They have a little bit better, um, care and coverage than we do. It's not great, but it's better. Um, and, and there was a lot of advocacy in the healthcare space, you know, from big organizations. And, um, you know, the, the, the, the, the military community does like to speak up for itself, but this was one of those areas that no one had really taken on. So we actually went to a bunch of the big military family organizations and said, Hey, are, are you doing anything with this? And they all basically said no. I mean, not because they didn't care, but because they wasn't their expertise, they didn't know much about it. So even if they were doing, you know, health advocacy, they were not touching this issue. And we decided it was time, uh, to do so. So we started the organization in a creative way. Number one, we want to shut this organization down. And it's rare to hear a nonprofit say that. I mean, we, we wanna solve the problem by getting this as covered care, and then we don't have to exist anymore. Right? We want people to be given the care they're needed through their, their health benefits in the military. Um, but we also. Started this organization looking at the incredible, uh, marketplace that is fertility today. So there's so many different solutions that exist out in the world, whether it's, you know, sperm preservation or different egg, you know, testing or all from, from runs the gamut. But military community members were not as privy to those solutions and they certainly weren't getting them from their healthcare. So we went out into the marketplace and kind of, you know, pretty ballsy. Just said, Hey, can you give us this stuff for free for active duty families? A lot of people do have the patriotic, you know, bone and want to see the military family community benefit. And so we got all kinds of stuff. Uh, we got free sperm preservation for parts of our community. We got free nurse care management for, for other parts of our community. And we're looking constantly for ways that we can support members, including, uh, a hopeful partnership with you guys. But the idea is, look like we, we have, there's people out there that want to see military communities get what they need. And there is a problem that is, you know, buried a little bit under the surface, which is infertility in our community. And we were looking to be the matchmakers there and say, Hey, let's get these services. Um, but at the end of the day, what we really wanna do is tell our stories loud enough, talk to enough people that can make decisions, especially in Congress and, and get this to be covered care. Yeah, well said. I love that. The patriotic bone, right? A lot of people have that. Um, and it is ballsy and it is ambitious and I love just the work that you guys are doing because I think like the answer's always no. I say this all the time and people probably get exhausted from me saying it, but the answer's always no. Like you don't know until you ask. And why not just, just freaking go for it. And there are organizations and there are. Donors that, that want to help and want to support. And ultimately it's just connecting that why and that cause and highlighting just the magnitude of this issue. Like it's super niche but yet so widespread, right? Like our organization, yes, we're niche, we have infertility, you know, counseling and family building, um, you know, counseling and things like that for military members. But it's such a widespread issue of infertility and I think, um, yeah, like. Giving people the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is, where, where, where it matters. And giving some, giving some direction with that is important. And you're, you're doing that in such a great way, um, I think with the organization, just because you guys are super organized and articulate with your messaging. And I think that's just what's needed to, to kind of get the job done and to eventually be able to shut both of our organizations down. Right? Like, is, wouldn't that be great? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's almost like. That should be the goal of a nonprofit to kinda solve the problem and not have to. Now obviously that's not the case for all issues, um, but this is one of those that, you know, the problem is solvable. It's a congressional solution. Right. And so we, and you know, the other side of this is, I, I, I was, you, you picked up on this idea of the patriotic, you know, look. When you are going through fertility treatments and you see every member of Con Congress wearing their big old American flag pen and talking about how much they support the troops, and you are paying out of pocket for the ultimate. Thing of having a baby, it really makes you angry. You know what I mean? You're like, yeah. Do you now, do you support the troops? Because last I checked, I'm paying$130,000 of my own money to have a baby, and you are turning me down. And so like, it's, it's a hollow, it's a hollow call of supporting the troops when this hole exists in our healthcare. 100%. Yeah, well said. I think it's, it's ultimately a virtue signal, right? That they're wanting to align with this branding of like, yes, we're military affiliated and we're, you know, affiliated and we're, we're supportive of our military, but, but put your money where your mouth is, put your vote where your mouth is. Like, is this actually what you're in alignment with? Are you saying that because it's, you know, it's on brand for, you know, for, for. Yeah. For the moment. Yes. Um, so, so yeah, I think, I think there's just, it's so multifaceted and, and I'm so excited for just the work that we can do together. I'm, I'm really pumped about that. And yeah, I just wanna hear where your drive, like all three of these women now that I've met, right? Like I've met Ellen and Katie and Kendall, and you all are so ambitious and have such drive and such passion for the work that you do. And I'm always just so inspired. By that.'cause I think that's, that's just how real Im important work gets done is just because you're very invested on a, on a personal level. So I'd love to hear just your personal journey Yeah. That kinda led you, um, to co-found, you know, um, military Family Building Coalition. And how does your unique experience kind of influence the work that you're doing? Tell me about that. Yeah, totally. Well, so. So personally, I mean, I've been an entrepreneur for, um, now it's almost 20 years, um, in different capacities for profit, nonprofit, all different things. And, um, the, the one, the one string that, that kind of goes through all of them is that I'm def, I'm definitely one of those people that like, I see a problem and I'm like, I'm gonna solve that problem. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start a company, I'm gonna start an organization, I'm gonna solve that problem. Um, but then, you know, layer that over my, my personal life, I married into the military, uh, will be married 13 years and, um, you know, was, was was really excited about joining this community. It's a rare. Amazing place in America where you are literally with everyone from the entire, um, American population and, uh, and you're all focused on a common and shared set of goals and missions and, um, in our very bifurcated world, it's a really wonderful group to be a part of. Like I am. I just love being a part of the military family community. Um, and so my, my own story was that, um, a little before my husband's first deployment, we started to try to have our first, uh, baby I. Um, I had had in my, my maternal lineage a mystery that was, that most male babies would die in stillbirth, sort of the beginning of the third trimester. End of the second trimester. Um, and nobody knew why. And so, you know, I was going into trying to get pregnant for the first time, um, having this thing hanging over my head, but nobody could tell me why. Te I tested myself for everything I knew that I could test myself for, and I had nothing. So we just. They said, Hey, you just gotta try. Of course. Um, we tried right before my husband left for his first deployment. We found, we did the early blood test. We found out that it was a male. Um, nothing about the pregnancy was abnormal, except I knew right. I had this family history. My mom had had four mid pregnancy losses, stillborns. And so I was like, pretty sure that was gonna happen to me. Um, and of course while my husband was deployed, we did lose the, the pregnancy. We, I, I had a stillborn I, you know, was in, at, out in San Diego, um, and had to deliver. And, uh, during the process I, you know, I, of course was looking for, what, what do I do? Right? And, and so a couple things were like, well save the DNA. Of, of this fetus so that we can maybe eventually do testing and figure something out. But second, the doctors all said to do IVF and try to have a girl. And ironically, like, that's not solving the problem. That's like avoiding the problem. But in some medical cases, that's what you have to do. So, um, we, I. I was like two days out of the hospital from having a stillborn, which cost Tricare, about$30,000. And I called and I said, Hey, uh, my medical advice is to do IVF. And you know, I, I kind of made the point that for the, the money that you just had to pay for my stillborn, I could do two rounds of IVF and hopefully from that, have girl embryos and not have to deal with this again. And of course, the answer was a blanket no. Because the policy was written, the TRICARE will not cover non reproductive procedures, which I thought was a real kick in the, when you're saying. That's really cute for people who are physically separated because of their job. Like I don't know how you're expecting military families to have time to quitas for 12 consecutive months, which is how you can define whether or not you are, have infertility when you're literally never together. For timed something 12 months of the year, right? Like that's just exactly very, very, um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's almost like salt in the wood, right? Like that's how you can prove you have infertility and you literally can't do it in the military. Um, and of course since we had had a natural pregnancy, we couldn't get in it on any of the wait lists. For the very rare, uh, care that is offered in the military, and I, I wanna be very clear about this. There are military hospitals, military treatment facilities that are teaching hospitals. And the reason they offer some I-V-F-I-U-I treatments like that, they offer some is because they need to maintain their accreditation as a teaching facility. Not because it's actually covered medical care for us. It's because they, their doctors have to stay relevant and they have to do IVF cycles to stay relevant. Right, right. Those are discounted IVF cycles. They're not free, they're not covered. IVF cycles, they're discounted because the doctors have to maintain their medical accreditation. And so, um, you, in order to get into one of those discounted medical situations, you have to be able to prove all this stuff. We could never, I mean, I had a pregnancy, there's no way I was gonna improve infertility. Right. Um. So we started on this journey. We did six egg retrievals interspersed with my husband's deployments over the course of three and a half years. Um, he was gone for half of them. I will say I have the best story military spouse story, which is that I was on a work trip and I was flying from New York back to San Diego and I had to do one of those timed injections that anyone who's been through fertility treatments knows. And it was like right when I got off the plane in San Diego, but my husband was not there. He was on a training trip and two guys got in front of me on the airplane and I could te I ne I never met them, but I knew that they worked. They were in the military, I could just tell like their watches, like the way they walk. And I went up behind'em and I was like, Hey, hey you guys, uh, in the Navy? And they were like, oh my God, who's this like weird spy? I was like, is he dude, you guys a medic? And of course, literally one of'em was a medic. I was like, great. I was like, I need you to give me an injection in my glutes right when we get to baggage claim. And the dude was losing his mind, but I was like, you're a medical professional. This shot right. Kid who was like, I've never seen again, gave me a glute injection at the San Diego airport, uh, Uber waiting area. So everyone, everyone who's been stationed there can visualize what I'm saying. Um, and li literally like did it, never saw me. It was awful, by the way. It was the worst shot. It was the most painful. He just like jabbed it in there. Um. But you know, that's the military, right? I was like, Hey, this guy's a medic. You can do it for me. So for you, oh my God, that's hilarious. Is that the greatest story? Military story? Hey, you saw an opportunity, you went for it. Yeah. I was like, this guy's gonna, this guy's gonna do something real weird and he is gonna tell everybody about this. Um, so, so at the end of this, we were lucky enough to get the Mayo Clinic to study my family's DNA. They discovered the issue. Oh. Um, they were able to test the male embryos that we had made. We made a ton of male embryos, kind of, unfortunately, as weird as that sounds. Um, and we had one female embryo that we, we had, we had on ice. Um, long story short, we had a perfectly healthy male that had no, uh, that did not hold this now known genetic issue. It's called I Pex Syndrome, and we are in medical journals for discovering, uh, this cause of fetal death. And so I was ready. I had a male embryo, I had a female embryo. I was ready to put them both in. And then ironically, after six rounds of IVF and three and a half years, I got naturally pregnant. I. Oh my God. And we ended up finding out that it was a healthy girl. So she is our oldest. Wow. But ironically, her younger siblings were made before her and they were waiting on ice. We'll tell'em that when they're older. Yes. Tell'em they're not gonna listen to this yet, but when they're older though, they'll find this out. Um, and, and then, you know, we, we, this is the other military part of the story. So she was about a year, uh, about 13 months old and we, we PCSed to Virginia Beach from San Diego Navy Family. The doctor said to me, listen, you know, you have embryos on ice in San Diego, the safest place for those embryos is in your uterus. So well, before I would've been ready to have a second pregnancy, I had no choice. Navy left me no choice. So, um, we, we implanted the two, uh, put the two embryos in, crossed our fingers, and actually both of them took. So, um, I have, I have a daughter, and then 21 months later I had boy, girl twins. Um, and, you know. It's the ultimate mil. They're all the ultimate military kids because the whole, everything about their, their story was military. But look, the experience of going through that, although we, and of course we triumphed in a major way, um, really made me angry. And it, I'm the kind of person that turns my anger into productive outcomes. And when I eventually connected with Katie, um, I felt like because I didn't have the scarlet letter of like traditional infertility. Although, of course I did, I wasn't getting pregnant with a healthy baby. Um, but I felt very willing to talk about it and to tell people I was going through IVF and to tell them why. And by talking about it, the floodgates just opened. I found so many people across the military that were coming to me and being like, tell me your secrets. Tell me everything. And the fact that it was so hidden. Also made me angry'cause like people should not be hiding this major medical issue and pretending it doesn't exist just because we don't have the coverage. And it makes us feel like, well you shouldn't have it. If you don't have medical coverage for it, then probably you shouldn't have this problem. Right. Um, and so all of those things wrapped together made me really motivated to try to fix it. Wow. I love that. What a cool. What a cool story from the, from the, the, the Navy guy in the airport to just the way that the, the story kind of happened. And that's, that's wild. And I, I bet that you're the one, you're the one that, um, reached out to the Mayo Clinic, right? They didn't reach out to you. I can, yeah, I can hear that. And that's, oh, yeah. And that's just such a, I'm getting a good insight into the way that your brain works. Right. And when you can channel that. Anger and frustration into, you know, creative problem solving and, you know, driving for, for solution and advocacy. Like, that's just the coolest part of it, you know? And yeah, I really resonate with everything that you said. It's such a. A hidden, you know, it's such a hidden topic, right? And it's, it's no matter what your situation is, you have secondary infertility or you have all these diagnoses that, um, you know, unexplained infertility, which, which I have, or any diagnoses that, that cause you to have infertility. It's male factor, all the things. It's like no one is like worse than the other, the. The, the overarching umbrella is that you are not able, you're not able to have a healthy baby. And that sucks. And it's really hard, and we need support for that, you know? Um, so I, I love that you connected with Katie and Kendall and you're just, you're doing the cool work that you're doing, and thank you for sharing your story. I'm excited for your kids to hear this at some point, right? Yeah, that's so, it's so funny. It's so fascinating. Um, yeah, and I think I'm really glad that you brought up as well with, with Walter Reed and with Madigan the other. Reproductive, you know, care facilities that are. On these different installations, like it's all a part of the, the system and the business. Right. And it's like, I think there's a misunderstanding of, of folks that, um, think that we get more care than we do because, you know, we have these, these fertility, um, you know, these fertility centers on these installations and really it's. Like, no, that's actually not the case. And you didn't really speak to the wait list. But I mean, Austin and myself, like right, you, you call these places and you wanna take advantage of, okay, they're heavily discounted. Um, but yeah, you wait a year and a half, you know? Yeah. And when you wanna have a baby, you wanna have a baby. Yeah. Yeah. Not, maybe I'll start trying in a year and a half. 100%. And that makes a huge difference to, you know, I'm 38, like Yeah. Yeah. Being a year and a half, like, no, no, thank you. No chance. So it's like, okay, what are my other alternative options if I'm gonna pay some portion of out-of-pocket anyway, might as well do it day now. Right. Figure out someone that can help. Well, and, and the irony is, this is the irony of this whole in like, you know, healthcare model, is that you need a diagnosis of infertility. To get diagnostic tests for infertility. Yeah. Riddle me. I don't know guys, like I'm not a doctor, but that doesn't sound right. And the way, the way you get a diagnosis of infertility in the, in the world, be outside of the military, this might make sense, right? Like you've been trying for 12 consecutive months if you're under 35. And you haven't gotten pregnant. That actually kinda makes sense to me. Okay. You're under 35, like it can take 10 months. Like that's, that's not weird. Yeah. In the military there has to be a different process because most of us don't have 12 consecutive months. Right? So the reason that you might not have gotten pregnant in 12 consecutive months. Is the military. Right? And so I, I would argue that like your infer your cause is the military itself, right? Which is why everyone should be covered in the military. Because if you're saying, if your cause of the military, if your cause of infertility is military related injury, well the military related injury is that you're in the military, right? Like. So, right. No, it's, we should all be covered. You're Exactly, yeah. No, you're exactly right. And it truly is baffling because you're like getting caught up in the, if you're truly reading the verbiage as it states, like in the policies, you're like, wait, what are people, am I crazy? Like, what are people not seeing? Like this is. Exactly why, like this is, this is an issue. So it is a policy issue and it's getting, you know, the right people to listen and to pay attention. And I think you guys are doing such amazing work and getting closer and closer. It's just, yeah. You know, pointing out the obvious from our end'cause we're like in it, right. Um, but it's, yeah. It's, it's just, it's an uphill battle. But I think more, more eyes are on. This issue. And you know, the more light that gets shined on something like the harder it is to ignore, um, especially with as loud as your voice is and in such a good way. And I'm pumped to be in DC and like, really help, help you in whatever. Yes, we can, we can work together. I'm also like, I would've done the same thing and, and asking for that shot in the airport. So I you're, you're my girl. Totally like that. Yeah, totally. If you any shots while you're down here, just call me. I'm really good at it. Um, but, but you know, I think also, I think the thing that we realize is that, um, the issue had that. People advocating for military members. Were mostly non-military, and there's a piece of that that I understand and I respect active duty. People are not going to the hill. Right? And there's a lot of reasons for that. And I actually don't think they're all bad reasons. Like I respect it. They're trying to stay out of the politics political fray, like that's good, right? Let's keep'em separate. But when you're talking about this issue, the fact that Capitol Hill isn't hearing about the problem from all the people that are dealing with the problem means they don't actually think it's a problem. Right. And so that's one thing that we really uncovered is that as we went into some offices, um, they were all like, we don't know anyone in our district who's had to deal with this. Well, first of all, they're, they're not living in your district right now. Like, we don't know where they are because they're military, they're all around. But the irony is we had a campaign called Fertility on the Front Lines, um, which we still do. And we just said to people, tell us your story. Just give us your story, tell you, tell us where you are through that campaign. We had a person in Alaska, uh, that was, I think stationed in Alaska, maybe from Alaska. I don't remember which one, but, um, they, they put it on there. They put Alaska, their location, their military location, and then this, the story because of that, Senator Sullivan of Alaska. Took up this issue. His office asked, do you have anyone? Wow, that's military in Alaska. And we did, we did just from our little website, people putting up their, their story on, on military family building.org. So because of that one person he was, he said, I, now I see this is a problem for my own constituents. Now he's a really smart man. He knew it was a problem, but you, they need that, right? They need that, that story. And he took up the issue and has become a big champion of ours, um, in Congress. Patty Murray from Washington State. She's a, she's a huge advocate. You know, uh, Senator Duckworth, obviously there's all these people, but it's bi, it actually is bipartisan. If you go into these different offices and say to them, Hey, this is real. This is a problem we're actually dealing with. We need Congress to make the change to to, to get the support. And the, our process for getting congressional change is that it's going to be iterative, right? We're not gonna get all fertility covered overnight. That's a, that's a cost. That, right? It would be very hard to overcome in a blanket, you know, coverage situation, but it would not be hard to overcome in an iterative growth situation. Like, okay, let's get this covered and then let's get this covered. And that is what we are hoping to do year after year. Um, we were super close last year with getting some stuff, you know, through, and I think this, this year we may really get it into next year's NDAA. Yeah. I love that. And so speaking of like the trajectory and kind of the framework that you have laid out, I think it's, it's so reasonable and just strategic to, to think of it in that way, right? Because it is such a, it's such a massive undertaking and you know, these policies are complex, but what does that iterative approach look like in terms of what almost got approved last year versus and, and what you're hoping to get approved this year? So the way we've been looking at it is that there's two challenges. Uh, to getting congressional change on this issue. One is cost, and the second is what happens with the embryos. Right. And, uh, I mean, I'm, I am happy to talk about how I feel about this aggressively As someone who went through IVF needed to do genetic testing, had embryos, male embryos with IEX syndrome, which meant they would have been. A late, you know, they would've been a stillborn for me. I would've had a pregnancy until six months or so, maybe more, and then the baby would've died. I threw those embryos away. I am okay with telling everybody that, and if you have a problem with that, you can call me personally and talk to me about what you would do in that situation if you would try to use those embryos knowing they were gonna die. I guarantee you nobody would actually do that, right? Like, no, it doesn't matter how religious you are, thinking about whatever you think, you're not putting an embryo into your body knowing you're gonna be going through a stillborn, which is gonna hurt your future, chances of pregnancy, gonna risk your own life for your other children and, and, and all the things, right? Um, but, but the, the issue of cost is real. And I understand a taxpayer, I understand it, right? So, so we thought of some creative ways around it. First of all, we believe you have to tie this. To retention and recruitment. And if you look at it from that perspective, it's not really a cost because if, if people are saying, I'm at this stage of my career, you've had a lot of success. You're probably in your thirties when you're potentially struggling with this. You've had success in the military, you're an asset to the military, your knowledge is usually important, your skillset, you know, everything that you've put into your military career is really important. We don't wanna lose you. We don't wanna lose you for this. Right. The second part of this is that most people who are trying to have a baby don't actually wanna get outta the military before they have that baby because. Your, your, your, your maternity leave in the military is great. Your fetal healthcare, your neonatal healthcare, your infancy healthcare, all of that is excellent. I mean, Tricare, once you have a baby, is one of the best places you can be. That baby's gonna be taken care of, right? So most people don't say, I just wanna like, get pregnant and then get out of the military. So one of the things we did creatively with some of our partners is suggest that for a short period of time, for a pilot period. There might be there, might there be a way to pay for this by attaching a service commitment to IVF and saying, Hey, you get X number of rounds, whatever, whatever that math is, you know, three rounds of IVF or X number amount of money for egg retrievals and in exchange of signing a service commitment. So there are already a lot of things we do in the military that are attached to an additional service commitment. I don't think this would be forever attached to a service commitment, but I'm trying to get people coverage right now, and this was a way that we could negotiate with congressional leaders on how to pay for it, which to say you actually are not really paying for it because you're getting people to stay in and it's basically a signing bonus. Um, and so, so that was something we did. There are other, uh, organizations, especially ones that are not savvy about the military that did not like that. Um, I'm, again, I was happy to argue with them and say, um, I'm act, my husband is active duty Navy. I'm looking at families. I'm looking at Carrie. I want her to get coverage right now. And I guarantee you people that are trying to go through IVF in the military are not gonna give a damn if I tell them, Hey, can you just sign the service agreement for three more years to, and then you get this paid for? Like, yeah. No one says no to that. Right. Um, and so, so we. We, we took it on saying we know that this is gonna be controversial, but it's going to get people care and coverage. And our feeling is this, once we get the coverage, once we get this medical care, there's a lot the military can do to revolutionize a RT assisted reproduction. I'll give you a couple of examples. If we were smart about it, we would get regular testing of fertility in our well woman and well man visit. Yeah, you have a population of otherwise healthy people between the ages of 18 and you know, whatever. If you took that population and just every couple of years tested their baseline fertility, you could make way better decisions, right? If you had a woman who started getting tested when she was 18, was still in the military when she was 29 and saw that her fertility numbers were dropping more than average, right? Maybe she's someone who'd say, oh, I wasn't really ready to have a baby yet, but maybe I'll get my eggs taken out. Maybe I'll do that now. Well, may, and then if she did that, maybe when she was 35 and had a break in her career and was ready to have a baby, it wouldn't be a problem because she would've had her 28-year-old eggs out and she, she would've been in a much better position. Right. Or a guy who's seeing that his sperm count is really dropping much more rapidly. He would put it aside. He would freeze a sperm. It's cheap. It's, it's easy. Right. And so we're looking at the military as an opportunity. In the healthcare of infertility instead of a problem. And we believe, if you look at it that way, then getting TRICARE to cover this is actually incredibly important for people across the country. Yeah, I think that's a really, yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think where. My brain kind of goes when you're talking about doing the baseline numbers, you know, where my, where my brain automatically always goes is like document, you know, document, document, document. Like if you have a baseline number and then you see that, um, baseline number, you know, depleting as you're in the military, right? Like getting curious about that as well. Like, hey, what's, what's kind of happening here? And then that is, um, an opportunity for folks to, you know, make those decisions and have the autonomy to make those decisions for themselves. Whether that's yeah, you know, cryo and, and, and freezing sperm and, and eggs and all the things. Or maybe this isn't the place, you know, for them. There's something happening there with, with the environment and maybe this isn't what they anticipated and they want to, um, you know, see those numbers look a little differently. But, but I think. Um, for retention. I think that's so smart with, for the recruiting and retention angle because Yeah, I, I just had a meeting actually with like, um, the, a bunch of VA liaisons, um, and they were saying that it is something that, that's trending that they're seeing interesting is interestingly enough, is that folks are getting out to start their families because there's just no. There, there's just, there's not enough support, there's not enough resources. And that's, that's a pattern, that's a trend that they are seeing now across these different states with the VA liaisons. And I was like, you know, it's understandable and totally, totally valid. I get that. So if there was this, um, you know, iterative protocol like in place, I think, yeah, hey, that's a proactive solve. Um, and. Please listen to the people that are actually in it. And, and you know, isn't that the most frustrating piece sometimes is that the folks that are making the decisions are the most removed from what's actually gonna be impactful and well received, um, you know, within the community. So I'm hopeful that, you know, if so close last year and, and this year, I think there's just, you know, a little bit more, um, yeah, a little bit more support and, and a few more votes I think. Yeah. I'm hopeful for you guys and I'm excited about. What this next year can kind of bring. So, totally. Yeah. I mean, look, like, you know, I, it, I, I think a lot of times when you've, when you've finished going through something like this, that's really hard. A lot of people wanna just like, not ever go back to that chapter of their life. And I, I kind of have the opposite, uh, uh, you know, feeling of like, look, we we're water under the bridge. We had to pay all this money. Like we, it's done. But I cannot in good conscience understand what I went through and look at the fact that there are people still in the fight right now, and there are people I know and they're friends of mine who were diagnosed with breast cancer and couldn't get an egg retrieval covered that are military spouses. There are people, I mean like this is unconscionable to me that America is okay with this. And I just think you ha, you have to be loud enough to make sure ev everyone knows that because congressional leaders actually don't want that. I mean, like the, the people that are, you know, that, that are, that are in our government. Yes, we can, we can all make fun of like how ineff, ineffective, ineffective. It, it can be inefficient, but at the end of the day, like you talk to a congressional leader on a whatever, wherever they sit, any part of the, any side of the aisle. In a private conversation, those people are horrified by this and want to see it change. Mm-hmm. The question is, what are the political level levers you have to pull to get that to happen? And I think that's a matter of just being savvy. And so like, you know, there's organizations that have gone year after year for 20 years. Actually 12 years. I know that ask, just saying, why doesn't the military make IVF covered? Well, okay, great. Yeah, they, people want that. That is not a politically, you know, advantageous process for people to just sign on to.'cause then it's gonna be like, how are we gonna pay for it? And what do we have to cut to pay for? You know, are we gonna have to raise taxes? Like all these things, you have to go to Congress with a meaningful solution that includes a meaningful way to make this not a huge cost and they wanna do it. Like they, they actually wanna do it, but it may mean that for, you know, five years that there is a service commitment attached to it. And. To me, that's okay because then you get the coverage. Right? Right. Well, yeah. I think it's those, those micro steps that kind of get you where you wanna go and the, the hopeful piece of it is that there is movement, that there's traction, that there's, there's some sort of change. Right. And I think you're right. I think to, to overarchingly say that. You know, everyone on Capitol Hill is a terrible monster. Is absolutely, you know, it's, it's just not the case. They're, they're real humans. Um, and they just don't have the bandwidth to understand all of these issues. Right, right. And I think when you look at it from that perspective of like, okay, we just have to be, um, strategic and, and mindful and thoughtful about our approach because you get. I won't just say you get one shot, but like you, I mean, you know, it's, it's important like your approach and you know that that piece is really important. And so you have that shot to kind of put in a, a, a, you know, put in a, in a nice framework that's easily kind of laid out for them. So you need like the right voice, like the right mess. Yep. The right approach for them to receive that, understand it, and commit to it. Right. So the timing of it I think is really important and the vessel is really important. So I think you guys are, you know, such a great organization to be able to, to, to just get some shit done. Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, I'm, we, we took this on wanting to solve the problem, not wanting to advocate for the perfect solution for 12 years. Like I, I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in, in, in sitting here and. Getting a couple of politicians to submit a bill every year for the next 12 years to make me feel good about it.'cause that does, that is while military members still do not have covered medical care for a RTI have not solved the problem. So, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm a pragmatist in the sense of we can do this, but you have to make it doable. Right. And, and, and I truly believe once we get a pilot through, once we show. How this all works. And they, people see their retention benefits and people see that. Can people want to stay into the, in the military if they can actually manage when they have a baby? Like, I know that sounds insane, but you know, if you're a pilot, you have a very strict timeline for when you are able to fly, when you are in a short tour, when you are, you know, uh, preparing to go on deployment. And like women who are pilots want to have some control over that. Guess what? They can. It's amazing. There's modern medicine and you can have that and, and, and it's not crazy. It's not science experiment. It's just basic medical care now that you can say, Hey, there's a really good time for me to try to have a baby and let me do everything I can to try to have a baby during that time. So that I actually can get back in the cockpit and fly again, or so that I can go on the deployment that's happening. Um, I don't want, you know, women are pregnant during deployment and, and people look down on that like, well, you know what, if a woman's trying to get pregnant, she's actually trying to get pregnant. Like, you know, and maybe she doesn't wanna miss the deployment, but the military's not making it easy for her to plan otherwise. So, you know, no, we're not giving people the tools that they could have to be excellent at their job in the military and be parents. Yeah. No, that's such a good point. And I think just. Building onto what you said as far as like the recruitment retention, like that's such a big piece of the puzzle, but also it's like the mission readiness, right? Like how Ready is a family that feels so unstable at home, both mentally, emotionally, financially, totally going into debt because they are out of pocket for all of their assisted reproduction. You know, like it's, it's mind blowing and it's, and it's shameful, right? So it's, the mission is being compromised, um, you know, at such a widespread level because of everything that's going on with, with, you know, whether you're a single parent trying to family build on your own or you're in a partnership and like trying to figure out whether it's adoption or surrogacy or IVF or IUI, all the things. And it's like, it's wild how much that impacts your, your day to day. Do you think that these folks feeling as unsupported. As they do are gonna be optimally, you know, functioning and their jobs 1000%. Not like it's, they're bringing it to, to work with them. And then at home there's this, there's this stress from being a part of a community that they don't feel supported by. Um, command is not, you know, super supportive and it's just very. It's super challenging, right? Like, um, so I think that the readiness component is, is so impactful and like yeah, if you can just maybe speak to that, like whether you know your own fertility journey, like I know there is. You were isolated and, and separated from, from your husband during that time, and just the mental health that goes with that and maybe what Yeah. MFBC is doing, um, to kind of integrate some of the mental health support, um, for these folks.'cause that's such a massive piece of it. It's like, what are, you know, how are we supporting our, our community with the mental health, you know, needs. Absolutely. And I mean, you, what you're doing and, and the way you look at this is, is spot on. I mean, if you, you know. It's annoying when you're going through fertility treatments. People say, oh, you, you know, if you, if you're less stressed, it's gonna be, you are like, can you, can you not? Cute? Like, I, you know, cute. Um, I mean, it's not untrue, right? It's like with any, with any health issue, like, yes, stress is not good for your body, but. It's incredibly stressful to be going through fertility challenges, especially when your partner is in and out or you have to be in and out, or you are PCSing to a place that doesn't have good fertility care or your money is tight and you are thinking about do I, you know, um, get this medical care that I have to pay for out of pocket, or do I, you know, save for the future to get a house? Like all, you know, all these, all these, these, these questions people have to answer. And, you know, we look at. Not, you know, individual sort of mental health and also relationship health, right? Because it's in, it's one of the biggest stressors on a relationship, right? The military is already a huge stressor on a relationship. Then being in the military and going through fertility treatments is insanely stressful, and that's, that's another one of those blind spots that we're looking for, you know, for policy change to wake up and see, you know, you're, you're, you're taxing people who are needing to be ready with an additional stressor. That's enormous. And so we look at, you know, solutions like yours and, and you know, the, the, the benefits of. Therapy when you're going through this process are huge. And when you're talking about, you know, are, am I gonna keep going when my husband's away? It's probably the best thing for you to do timing wise. It's incredibly stressful though, right? And, um, you know, who's gonna help you think through that and work through that and be the, the shoulder to lean on when you do that, that getting counseling is. Is a hugely, uh, important part. Most doctors actually recommend it, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's something that people say, you know, you get an infertility diagnosis and it feels like you've just had a major medical issue, you know, thrown into your lap. And although you don't necessarily like, feel it and it's not gonna necessarily kill you, um, mo morally and emotionally it can because it feels so awful. Um, so yeah, we, we think that for military communities. Um, you know, the additional pressure of often being separated while going through these medical treatments that are already incredibly stressful is something that really does require, um, additional mental health support for our community. And we think that, um, you know, that's why we, we love talking to, to, uh, mindful Warrior and, and why we think that it should be built into the way we look at treating infertility in our community. Yeah. Yeah. I really do think that it's. It's, it's a piece of it, right? We can't just compartmentalize, um, infertility and these family building challenges and look at it as just like a financial burden, right? Like the mental, emotional piece is so important. And you look at all of the stressors that we already have, like baked into being, uh, you know, a military spouse and a military member, and being isolated from our families and our, our partners and, you know, holding down the house. And gosh, we're working and we're doing that too, and. It's managing our lives and, and it's, yeah, it's, it's such a, it's such a needed component to kind of pay attention to. So, yeah. I think I, I love the work that you guys are doing and I'm, I'm curious, what do you think, I mean, either as a part of your kind of fertility journey, um, the support that maybe would've been helpful for you or that you're, you're seeing from. Um, you know, the members of, of the coalition? Like what, what are they asking for in terms of that, that type of support? Any like patterns that Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, look, I think people are looking for, you know, staying connected with their partner while going through this. Because often, you know, if a female partner, um, whether they're the active duty member or not, you know, is going through. The more rigorous elements of the medical treatments. Sometimes they're doing it alone, right? I mean, sometimes they're dual mill and they're separated. Sometimes it's a woman who wants to parent solo. Sometimes it's a military spouse and their, their partner is deployed. I mean, you know, there's a lot of separation that makes all of this way harder. I mean, it's already hard. You know, the fact that you may have to go through, I mean, I, for me, I went through over 50% of my medical care for fertility alone and, you know, that is, was, was exhausting. And it's funny, I, I'll never forget I had to pay for the parking garage to go to my appointments and like I. For some reason that was just the fucking kicker man. Like, I was like, it was my cab. It was like everything was hard, but every time I had to pay that two or$3, I was so mad, um, because it's like that additional thing. Um, and then ironically, if my, if my husband could like drive up from work and join me for the medical appointment, we'd have to pay it twice. You know, and I was like, well, that makes me so bad. Just a little extra dagger. Yeah. It makes me so bad. But, but you know, I think, I think the, the, the, the military, you know, the need for mental health for military community members is already there. The need for mental health for people going through fertility treatments is already there. So, combining these two, it, it really is, um, an area where you have to be thinking that that's part of your treatment. I. And, um, you know, I, I know for, for my husband and I, he came back from the deployment where we lost our first pregnancy and we kind of like had to tell each other our own stories. Like where were you, what was happening, you know, when you got the news and what, what was the whole experience like?'cause we didn't experience it together. And I think that's, you know, it's one of those things that military couples get used to, but it really is something you have to, you have to look into more deeply. And. Think about the long-term implications of the challenges that you're going through on the, on the mental health side. Uh, yeah, that's such a good point. And yeah, I think in thinking about your story, is it, it's, you know, I love that you shared that you guys had to each kind of come back and reconnect, like, Hey, where were you? Where were you? And to bond over that and kind of connect over that.'cause you each had your own individual experience of something. Yeah. Right. Like that's. Powerful. And I think, and just so, yeah, just so impactful, I think, what is it that you wish that you, you know, any message that, that you wish you could kind of share, um, something that helped you and your husband connect or, you know, just. As you're working through this, um, you know, your, your guys' journey and you're at a different point now, but like, as you were kind of going through it, how did, how did you make it work and what were some of the stabilizing, you know, practices or, um, communication tactics or things that just worked for you as you were now? You know, I, I think, I mean, I'm not, I, I know people are, everyone's different in their, in their journey. I was very, very open about it. And so the, the, the people and the families in my husband's unit knew that we were going through this. And I will say that that made, you know, look like when you go to military family events, you're gonna see babies and pregnant people and sometimes really sucks. And so I feel like knowing people, knowing what we were going through. Made that experience better because people were sensitive to it. Like, you know, a spouse who might be pregnant would know that we were struggling with something and would be very sensitive to it. And that's very helpful, right? Mm-hmm. So community is a part of it. I would say community is a part of it, right? And, but not everyone feels comfortable being open about going through fertility treatments. I just would say if you do it, really, I believe it's helpful. Because generally people want to be sensitive to you and don't wanna keep asking when are you having a baby, when are you having your second? And if you can tell people the reason that you haven't is not because, you know, whatever you're waiting for them to ask, it's because you're having trouble, right? So I think that's one, one thing I would say. Um, the other is, you know, if there are people around you who, for whatever reason have a problem with either IVF or what, cut'em out. Even family, you got some issue with, you know, the me the fact that there's medical care to do, solve these problems. Um, and you know, again, there's like the family members who would happily go in and, and, and, and get chemotherapy when they have cancer, but somehow think that like the medical care available to take eggs out of a woman's body, combine'em with sperm in a, in a glass dish and put them back in. Like if they have a problem with that, I'm, that's adorable. Wow. What an unbelievable, you know, mental gymnastics you're doing in your head, but I'm not interested in talking to you about that. Um, yeah, and, and so I think you, I think you have to protect yourself and, and cut'em out. Um, and then, you know, I would also say, um, being open about how, what this, what your own story is with your partner, right? Like, here's what I'm going through, here's what I feel. What, and then let, letting you know, making sure you're aware whether you're together or apart. Um, but, you know, aware of what the other person is, is feeling going through is, is really important. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I think it the. The piece that's so important is the, which, you know, not everyone is, is super comfortable being, being vocal and being open with their story.'cause again, there is, there is, you know, shame and, and privacy and all the things. And some people are introverted and really don't wanna share too much. But I think there is, um. With, with sharing, you're kind of a building that community and maybe welcoming other people into your life that, that maybe need to be there and are in alignment with some something that you're going through and you're kind of calling that in. That connection piece I think is really special.'cause like I. How cool has it been for you? Probably that like you found the people that you found because you were vocal about it, and if you were in, in the corner, you know, suffering in silence. Like who, who would've known what you were going through and, and you would've missed out on so many opportunities and cool people that would've been, you know, sharing their, their story with you. So I think. That piece is, is really special. And so I, yeah, I definitely think it's helpful to, to share your story and to, you know, definitely at least with friends, with friends and family and people you support and trust. And then yes, you're wanting to expand wider. Like that's, that's up to you and, and props if you're doing so, but at least with your friends and family so that you don't have to, you're already feeling isolated, right? You're already feeling vulnerable. Like might as well kind of put it out there and then guess what? That heaviness a little bit of it drops away. It really does. Yeah. Yeah, and I think the other thing is, you know, whatever the cause of infertility and like, whether you know or you don't know, it's not your fault. It's like, it's as much your fault as like, you know, you're one of the, the young people that's now all of a sudden getting colon cancer or you're a young person who. I was born with a genetic issue that they didn't know about and all of a sudden has issues or, you know what I mean? We have to stop looking at, at health in that way. And we, people constantly look at fertility in that way. And you know, I felt very quote unquote lucky in a weird way because I had this like genetic thing. But I would shove that in people's faces because I'd be like, first of all, you shouldn't be asking me. But second of all, yeah, here, let me tell you this family history of like mystery stillborns that five, five generations of women in my family went through. Now we're gonna, we're gonna solve it. And so, you know, I guess I can end on a really high note, which is that, um, because of the science that we did, because of the understanding of this diagnosis, that I, we, I know what I carry, I was able to test male embryos. Uh, for those who don't have it, my son obviously being one of them. Um, the really cool part of the story. Is that we did not test the female embryo, nor did I test my female natural conception because I was gonna have her anyway. It's basically like me, I'm a carrier of this genetic issue, but I don't, I don't, I'm not affected by it, afflicted by it. Um, but in the next generation, so when my daughters, um, are are old enough, um, I will have them remove their eggs and when they are looking to conceive. They can test the female embryos as well as the male embryos. And this, this problem, this five generation medical problem of stillbirth will end and they will not have to deal with it, and their daughters will not have to deal with it, and it will be over in our family. Ugh. And I am such an advocate for this type of, um, you know, the benefits of free genetic testing, right? I mean, it. The I am that case study, the pain and hell that I went through and that my mom went through and my grandmother went through. My daughters will not go through because we will be able to decide that they will only have boys that don't have I Pex Syndrome and they will only have girls that don't carry I Pex and their daughters will be able to just try to get pregnant like everybody else and not ever worry about this genetic issue. And that to me is the best outcome of my, my, not only my personal pain and years of struggle, but also what hopefully this advocacy can lead to. Oh man. Yeah. Dang. Mic drop. Mic drop. Like, that's, that's amazing. I mean, on, on so many levels, right? The work that you're doing with, um, military Family Building Coalition and then with your own personal journey of ending that pain and, and suffering and, and the advocacy that you've done there, I think is just so cool and so multifaceted and. Just so connected and should really just inspire and educate people. Um, you know, so if anybody's listening that was maybe confused about assisted reproduction and how deep it can go and what that kind of looks like. I mean, Ellen's just educated you here, gave a little masterclass and pass it on to maybe one of your friends and family who needs a little bit, um, of, you know. Of, of education in that department. Um,'cause I think hearing, just like with members of Congress, I think like with, with family and friends who are maybe confused by access, reproduction or conflicted on, you know, religious or political, um, you know, on on with their ideology and things and things like that. I think hearing the really connected personal stories, like that's where we change people. Yeah. It's me, I am that person. Exactly. I was not deciding. For my children to have, uh, blue eyes. Actually I did, I had no frigging idea whether what color, eyes they were gonna have, and they don't all have blue eyes, but the, my daughters will not have to have right stillborns in the future. And I don't know what mother. Yeah, who's gone through it and watched my mom go through it, would ever not try to have that not happen to their own children. Yeah. And I don't want, I've never met anyone who would say, oh, you know what? I hope they inherit this horrible thing and that for generations to come, everybody has male stillborns. No one, no, no one would ever say that. Now that we know we can, we can handle it. Exactly. I think. Yeah, so I mean, just the work that you, you've done in your own personal story I think is, I'm just so deeply connected to that and just inspired and I'm so looking forward to just us being in the same place and, and yes. You're doing I that person I-R-L-I-R-L-I-I. Great. I'm so excited. And yeah, thank you so much for just spending this time just sharing your story and your connection to this mission and. Yeah, I'm again just really excited for the, the stuff that you guys are doing and that we can do together. And yeah, thanks for joining me today and then we will, we will connect in person. Look forward to it. Thank you. Okay, thanks Ellen. Thanks so much for joining us on the Mindful Warrior Alliance Podcast. If today's episode spoke to you in some way, share it with your friend and leave us a review. It helps us to reach more warriors like you. Don't forget to follow us on social media and head to mindful warrior alliance.org to connect with our community access resources and stay up to date on what's coming up next. Until next time, take care of your mind. Stay strong and be mindful.