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She Leads Collective Podcast
Real stories. Bold conversations. Leadership that lifts everyone.
Welcome to the She Leads Collective Podcast—a space where stories spark change, and lived experience becomes leadership wisdom. Each season, we rotate through three powerful themes:
Real Models – conversations with inspiring women leaders and business owners who share the truth behind their success—the bias they’ve faced, the doubts they’ve overcome, and the wisdom they’ve gained.
Allies – honest insights from men and women who are actively championing gender equity, revealing what true allyship looks like in action.
The Undiscussables – the topics no one talks about, but everyone is impacted by—domestic violence, baby loss, harassment, poverty—and how they shape women’s presence, power, and potential at work.
This podcast is for women in leadership, business owners, HR leaders, and change-makers who believe the workplace can—and must—be better for women.
You’ll leave every episode with something real: inspiration, insight, and the courage to lead differently.
Let’s change the conversation—together.
She Leads Collective Podcast
Episode 3 - Authenticity in Action, Leading the Ange Bishop Way
What does it really take to thrive as a woman CEO in the male-dominated world of tech?
In this episode, I’m joined by the brilliant Angela Bishop—CEO of Zühlke UK, global adventurer, mother of two, and passionate advocate for inclusive leadership.
With over two decades in technology consulting, Ange has built a career at the intersection of engineering, innovation, and cultural transformation. But what sets her apart isn’t just her CV—it’s how she leads: with energy, honesty, and a deep commitment to equity.
We talk about:
- The bold moves that shaped her career
- What authenticity looks like in senior leadership
- How to foster inclusion that’s more than a buzzword
- Why backing others is a powerful act of leadership
Whether you’re in tech, leadership, or simply navigating your own next step, this episode offers a refreshing look at what’s possible when you lead with both courage and care.
🎧 Tune in for a story that’s as real as it is inspiring.
Connect with Angela Bishop:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/angelabishop
Zühlke UK: zuehlke.com
🔗 Connect: marygregory.com
📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregoryleadership
📸 Instagram: @marygregoryleadership
📰 Newsletter: marygregory.com/newsletter
🎙 Want to be a guest? Get in touch!
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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching
Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to this episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. What does it take to become a female CEO in the male-dominated tech industry? Well, today's guest is going to tell us all about her experiences. Today, I am delighted to welcome Angela Bishop, who, in my opinion, is a fantastic role model of female leadership and who is someone who brings energy, authenticity and a refreshing dose of candor to every room she enters. Ange is the CEO of Zulke UK, part of the Swiss tech innovation powerhouse. With over 20 years in technology consulting, she's built her career at the intersection of software engineering, leadership and inclusive workplace culture. She's also a global adventurer, a mum of two and a fierce advocate for equity and leadership. I first met Ange when she presented at one of LHH's Elevating Women in Leadership programmes at ThoughtWorks. I remember thinking, this is a woman who is a great example of leading with both head and heart. Ange is also a great advocate for inclusivity. And it was a joy to hear her share her story, which is one of the reasons I asked her here today. Her career is impressive, but it's her commitment to empowering teams and championing change that really stands out. In this conversation, I hope that we get under the skin of what it takes to lead authentically in tech, how to navigate bold career moves and why inclusion isn't just a nice to have, it's a leadership imperative. Ange, it is so good to have you here today. Thank you for joining me.
SPEAKER_00:No problem, Mary. It's so good to be here. I'm happy to be part of your podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I'm delighted. And I don't, you know, I take your time seriously. You're a busy CEO. So to give up your time and talk to me is wonderful. So we're going to sort of do a bit of exploration around your career and around your motivations today, because I think your story is going to inspire but also inform many of our listeners. But I'm curious, let's go right back to your childhood, what did you want to be when you grew up? Did you think I want to be a CEO of a technology company?
SPEAKER_00:It's a great question, actually, because I was joking about this with someone only like a few months ago. And I think obviously back then I didn't know what titles were or, you know, a software company was or anything like that. But I kind of knew that I liked leading teams and I liked being in charge. When did you find that out?
UNKNOWN:Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:I think well my mum's nickname for me was Queenie so I think quite young because but and I remember also a school report card at one point and I have a picture of it on my phone actually that said you know Angela shows a strong leadership ability I think this was when I was about seven but she needs to temper that with tact so I've been also working on my style for a while because I think that's also important as well so I mean I think you Yeah, I mean, I can't really say that I really wanted to know that I wanted to be a CEO from a young age, but I knew definitely that I was super curious about businesses and how they ran. And I also like knew that I was good at like being the the kind of galvanizing member of a team like bringing people together and I think I remember also one of my friends told me like you need to like kind of run a company or something like that you know and I think it developed over time like once I'd actually gotten into gotten into business after university I realized actually yes I do want to understand how to lead a company and that could be a really good ambition and just and it was it was it was not based on like um power or control it was sort of based on more curiosity like how how would I make all these different things work together how do I make this successful how do I get people motivated you know so it wasn't it wasn't built on like I get to make the decisions it's built on curiosity I think yeah
SPEAKER_01:and I love that because to me that indicates a lack of ego because it's not so much about I want to do this to be a big person and a big I am it's doing it because actually I'm really curious about how these things work together
SPEAKER_00:yeah I mean and I think that's also something that's driven me to sort of stay in consulting as well, because you get to see so many other different businesses as well, like all your clients' businesses. So I get to see retail businesses, energy businesses, public sector, which is totally different, travel and transport businesses, financial services businesses, like all manner of businesses. I get to kind of understand how they think about their business and how they delight customers so you know and serve their customers how they um make money um how that or how they don't make money in some cases and give back um and i think that's also part of it that's driven me there is that just general curiosity about oh how do you make that work and learning from these different businesses and bringing it into the mix also as a in a consulting business but then using that to also um share that with other clients you know without necessarily you know obviously in not giving away people's um confidential information but it's just like understanding like these things are really working well to provide these um specifics in a business you know and you can take that um those themes um across across many businesses as well so that's also very interesting
SPEAKER_01:absolutely in a real openness to learning is what I hear
SPEAKER_00:yes yeah and I think you have to be like because everything's changing so quickly these days I think if you're not willing to learn as you go I think you get a bit stuck and I don't learn through reading books or listening to podcasts in the same way others do or studying you know going back to university I'm a very practical learner I learn through doing I learn through watching other people I learn through other people's stories and I also learn through just asking questions like how did you do that or how does that work or things like that so I'm a very practical learner I'd say and so I learn that way so I'm just always interested in thinking okay what else could I you know learn today and you know if I learn something every day then that's great you know if I don't that's also fine but yeah it's nice to do that and I think always like when let's say when you have like a new joiner in your company I always think oh I'm going to learn something new you know because they're coming from somewhere else have a different experience have a different background what could I learn from them
SPEAKER_01:yes because they can have the freshest eyes aren't
SPEAKER_00:they yes exactly yeah yeah exactly and a different perspective
SPEAKER_01:yeah fantastic so from a young age you absolutely had an aptitude towards leadership you certainly have an enthusiasm and a keenness and curiosity to learn so tell us about your career then and tell us about your career journey
SPEAKER_00:yeah um so i uh went to an all girls school so i'll start there because then there was quite a juxtaposition then when i went to university i studied information technology majored in software engineering, and was one of very few women. So it was mostly men, like by far, you know, the real
SPEAKER_02:contrast,
SPEAKER_00:very huge contrast for me. And obviously, so I had to very quickly understand, like, how to operate in that mode and how to be resilient in that mode. I was lucky enough to have a lot of lecturers that weren't tutors that were women, actually. And that's why I chose that university because the main person leading that faculty was actually a woman, which was not a pretty unheard of at the time, you know, to lead a sort of the technology area of a university being a woman, which is great. And I'm actually still in contact with some of my lecturers today. So, yeah, so I did that for a few years and then I started off working in the public sector in Australia. That's where I'm from. Looking in the health part, like in hospitals, doing software for hospitals and patients and doctors and things like that. And obviously, yeah, very quickly, I won a few women in that department, building software for the hospital. And then I definitely wanted to travel. I definitely didn't want to stay in Australia. So I moved over to the UK and was very fortunate enough to have some family over here, which helped me sort of set up and everything. And that's when I actually started working at another health company, very health software company very briefly. And then I started working at ThoughtWorks. And yeah, and I think through that journey, I got to work with lots of different clients, learning their business, learning how I can help deliver great software that supported them, their business and their customers. I think that's the biggest bit. But I think very early on, I knew that like, I was more curious about the business I worked in, not just the client's business. And I remember one day the CEO at the time had come to visit us at the client site and then written me a really nice email after just saying, like, I think you're doing a really good job and the client's giving you really good feedback. And I replied with a bit of a tongue in cheek that, you know, you've got to take these risks sometimes. I'm glad I'm on my way to taking your job from you one day, you know, with a smiley face, which I think not many people would write to the CEO at the time but you know I knew him enough to kind of make a joke and then I didn't hear back you know and I was like oh I've made I've made a really bad choice here you know maybe my joke's gone too far I
SPEAKER_01:can just imagine what was going on in your head
SPEAKER_00:and I just thought he'd find it a nice joke reply going yeah great whatever um I got a call a couple of weeks later going, congratulations, you've been put on the Global Leadership Development Program and he will be, his name's Trevor, he will be your sponsor and you'll get an hour with him a month.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:So that risk was definitely worth taking because then for six years he became my mentor and I got an hour with him every month. Fantastic. And he was obviously running a global company. So that was really very fortunate to be able to be. And he sponsored
SPEAKER_01:you. so he sponsored you and he was your mentor
SPEAKER_00:yeah exactly yeah and so um from that point on he sort of advised that you know um that actually i just need to have empathy for all the different parts of the business i need to understand how each of them need to operate and then how then they come together because if i wanted to kind of be a ceo i needed to understand not just how they work together but what they did inside so i went on this journey of going okay well you know i look after a team at the moment but it's a delivery team how do i amplify that by looking after say it from a more sales perspective or for multiple teams at the same time and then how do I do things that are in the operational part of the business so how do I move in and temporarily do some operational roles so I did sort of in consulting staffing as a really key part of the business so I did that for a while then I went over to Ecuador and helped start an office over there so that was a whole different experience again so I guess I of went on this kind of journey of making sure I, I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't go to every area of the business, but just have a little bit more understanding of how some of those different parts operated. And then also make sure I was curious about the different parts that I didn't get to experience firsthand. And then, you know, make sure I understood and understood where they're coming from in these situations. And then obviously over time, you know, how they all came together. And then I think, and then the other thing you have to do, you know, as a, you know, running a CEO is you have to make the business, you have to run the business, make it profitable, make money, you know, and that's fundamental. So I then moved into looking after sort of multiple clients or a portfolio of clients and show how I can manage that, manage them and look after, you know, the revenue side, the profitability side, the teams that were involved and that kind of thing. And then that's sort of where, what led me to, to, It's sort of building up, I think, the experience that I think, you know, I thought I needed, but I was guided to need. And then obviously lots of other little different things along the way as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So I'm hearing from this from quite a brave and cheeky decision and action that you took. a whole six years of development came your way you were supported to really grow into what was needed to be a ceo
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah exactly and i mean this is why i when i look back on it um and you know give advice to others now i'd say vocalize what your goals are yes i think you've heard me say that to you know the teams in the leadership program um you know you have to vocalize like what you want to do because if you have a goal and you don't tell anyone no one knows to help you but if you can vocalize it in a way um you know whether it be like a bit tongue-in-cheek you know or you know or like really formal um I think it just helps because then people can give you the right feedback and the right guidance um yes I don't know anyone that doesn't want to help someone with their career goals they might not have time to help them all the time but I don't know anyone that doesn't want to help someone else yes really there is
SPEAKER_01:there's something to be said isn't there if you're committed to helping others be successful you will be successful yourself and that and that is clearly demonstrated in business in so many areas I think isn't
SPEAKER_00:it yeah it's so true because I think as a as a leader you're only as good as your team yes and your job as a leader is to basically create an amazing team um you know and that's how you're successful basically if you know um I mean, that's the fundamentals. That's your main job is to have a great team. Part of it is uplifting them. Part of it is giving them learning opportunities. Part of that is also some of the hard stuff, which is also telling them feedback that sometimes they, you know, you don't want to give freely, but you have to. Or just hard truths about, you know, certain situations. But ultimately you're there to motivate them and give them the opportunities for them to be successful. And sometimes that also means that, you know, Yes,
SPEAKER_01:yes. So ensuring your team's success is absolutely fundamental. And so I'm also wondering, though, we're talking about the really positive things, the support you got. This is fantastic. What about some of the more challenging things? I'm also curious, I suppose this is my bias as well. I'm curious about how you navigated bias because you were or you are in an industry that is very male dominated. And I'm sure that you're surrounded by wonderful male colleagues. colleagues but there are inherent biases that we all hold and I just wonder how you navigate these.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I think there's a few instances I can I can kind of recall that really were moments I think that shaped a little bit about how I thought about this and of course as you said like I had really good both male and female mentors so I was very lucky to do that and I know that a lot of people that worked around me really cared about me and cared about you know what I wanted and knew that you know and obviously I vocalize these things so I'm not shy about that. I think there's one where it's about feedback. So I think feedback is really important to accept and to take. But in a situation where you're a minority, like in the case of, you know, there's very little females in a more male-dominated industry, a lot of that feedback is given to you or worded in a way that sort of comes across like you need to be more like a guy in that situation. And it's not malicious. or anything like that, it's all very well thought, you know, it's done from a good place, basically. But I think what I recognised is that in taking the feedback just at face value, I was then finding I was adjusting things that I was doing that didn't feel comfortable for me, for my authentic self, for my personality. You know, I like, you know, I'm quite... bubbly and like optimistic and I like wearing bright clothes and you know and I felt sometimes it was just like you know they were trying to sort of get me to be more serious or this and or I needed to be more like I don't know a bit more blunt about things and I am pretty blunt but sometimes in my own way and anyway I think when I reflected on that I was like actually this isn't working for me the way that I'm accepting the feedback and not necessarily then working out how I then adjust so I'm still And I remember there was a certain point, and I think I've spoken about it, with others before where I remember practicing for this huge presentation or pitch that we were doing for this client. And it was a really big deal. It was sort of one of these like make or break deals for a company. And, you know, we'd flown in people from other countries for it. It was that sort of big. And I was one of the lead people pitching. And we'd all got together, you know, in the week leading up to the pitch to kind of practice this pitch over and over again. And I remember I just, you know, kept messing up a few things and You know, they kept giving me feedback and I was like, right, I need to just go into a room and just be like, how am I me? Because I know that if I can be me in this pitch, I will land it because all the people that are there from the client side, they already know me. They know the good work that I was doing at the client already. And I've been working there for some months. And I really had to think about that because I kept being like, oh, you need to say it like this or you need to not be like, you know. And I know it was all like superficial stuff, but it felt really uncomfortable. And I got to a point where I was just messing up because I was so uncomfortable. It
SPEAKER_01:sounds very confusing, actually.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, it can be, I think. And this is where I reflected. I remember going home and just thinking, right, I need to be totally me in this pitch to feel comfortable. It's a really long multi-hour pitch. I need to feel like this is. And there was a moment where I realized that I need to. take the feedback and accept it, of course, but then work out how I then implement it in my own way, not implement it necessarily on exactly the advice given. And that was a really big turning point for me in realizing that I need to be me. Otherwise, I'm not going to be successful because I'm just going to be, I'm going to clam up or I'm going to forget what I'm supposed to say because I'm just thinking about all the things I'm supposed to be doing, but I totally feel uncomfortable. So that was one of the one of the key things I think that I've then taken through and everything I do now, even now I think about it daily. It's like, am I feeling, I've got a big presentation. I've got this podcast today. How am I going to feel comfortable? Like to be me. Another probably area of resilience or, you know, how I navigated this is like, you know, when you've had a really tough time and realizing that careers aren't a ladder and realizing that they are almost like waves that might go up and down. So, yeah, You know, I've had moments where I was like, you know, felt like I was progressing and then all of a sudden I'd go for something new and then you'd have a setback. And you'd think that was like the end of the world at the time. But actually recognising that maybe that was a good thing and moving sideways a little bit fast was a good step.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So it didn't always have to be a vertical ascendant. You can go horizontal sometimes.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And sometimes you might have to go back before you go forward again because because you might be building up a new skill set or learning a new different area of a business or changing roles. You might have the experience and leadership skills, but then you need core skills the other way. So you will probably accelerate in those changes more quickly, but you need to go back to go forward. And I think that's another thing that you need to... I think I... came to terms with earlier on. I think partly because in consulting, you kind of change projects and change clients. So you get that kind of experience of trying different things. So you realize that some work and some don't, and you kind of realize where you prefer to be. And then I think probably the other thing is putting yourself in really difficult, challenging situations, and then working out how you cope with those and then learning from those. So one of mine, I think we've spoken about before is when I moved to Ecuador. Oh, yeah. I mean, I didn't speak the language at the time, you know, I had to do two hours of tutoring every day to try and up my language skills quite quickly, you know, navigating a new culture, work culture, coming from a kind of London work culture, which is obviously quite, you know, there's the bar sets very high in London in particular. And I think that was incredibly challenging, not just from a language perspective, from a cultural perspective I had to really adjust my understanding about how different cultures view work versus life um and it's actually they provide some good lessons right because I probably was a lot more focused on work um you know and definitely still had life but like really was plowed a lot into work and I think I learned from that that actually you you know you do need to prioritize other things sometimes you know um but I initially I found that really really challenging when, you know, that was sort of the default was that a priority of life over work sometimes. So the
SPEAKER_01:difference between living to work and working to live.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And I think lots of people have different perspectives on that. But that was sort of a big shift for me. And how did
SPEAKER_01:you cope? Because it sounds like, you know, that was a tough time. You didn't speak the language. I mean, goodness knows you didn't speak the language. The culture was incredibly difficult or not difficult, but different, difficult from different very different and sounds wonderful in some ways but how did you keep going through all of those challenges
SPEAKER_00:yeah I think there was definitely a lot of perseverance there was a tears for sure because you know I think I was sort of coming home at the end of the day you know utterly exhausted because I'd done you know work for the day in a mixed language so I was you know also trying to speak Spanish at work then doing two hours of you know tutoring to up my language skills and I was my brain was exhausted it, trying to, you know, work out all these different things. And then, and I was away from home, you know, it was obviously my husband came with me, but was, you know, we were all away from our normal friends and family, you know, trying to kind of create a, you know, another group of friends there. And, you know, I can't, it was definitely a lot of tears, there was definitely a lot of doubts, for sure. And I think, When I look back on it, though, that was so crucial to some stuff I took away. At the time, I thought it was a disaster. you know, that's, you know, because like, you know, I was just struggling and I'd never struggled really before at work, you know, I'd always found a way through, but like, you know, week after week, I think, um, you know, I was just like, oh, this isn't getting better for me, you know, um, uh, you know, the outcomes were coming out as we planned, but it wasn't getting any easier for me. And I thought, you know, maybe after three months or so, you know, it gets easier. And yeah, I look back and I just remember at the time I thought, oh, I failed, you know, This is awful. I've never failed at anything. But, you know, in the end I didn't fail really. I just learned a lot. And I think if you can view those kinds of failings not as failings but as learnings, then you can take that forward. And it did take me some time to reflect on that. Like when we came back to London, you know, I went back to doing some of the things that I was doing before, so looking after multiple clients at the time. And I had to really understand that. But then all of a sudden I realized I had so much more empathy. for people with families and people who were carers and you know people had different choice just chose to prioritize life over work um which I probably didn't have like I did have before but didn't have as much or I wasn't as aware of
SPEAKER_01:it
SPEAKER_00:and I was so much more um yeah flexible about that stuff I think and that's really
SPEAKER_01:powerful actually isn't it so that's a great story of kind of going to the depths feeling like you've failed having a really tough time but actually it really enriched you as a leader and as a woman actually
SPEAKER_00:yes exactly and I think that's what you've got to think about all these different types of like navigating situations whether you're male or like you know male female non-binary like you you have to if you walk away you can walk walk away at the time with a negative perspective on it you can walk away with your career not going just up and it goes you're like a wave you know you can see that as negative you know you can see an experience like I had as really negative um or you could see you know being in a kind of you know taking feedback always is really negative but actually if you really try to think about it I think you know someone says like feedback's a gift you know some of these things are all just gifts um I think you know you can walk away and I know it's really hard to do that and you might not be able to do it in that moment but as long as you can get around that over time and really understand what it helped you do I think that that's how you build the resilience as well in absolutely and that's how you build experience yeah
SPEAKER_01:yeah absolutely and there's that there's also that other saying which is there's no such thing as failure yeah there's only there's only fee back in learning.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, exactly. Yeah. And that's a
SPEAKER_01:great story that illustrates that really.
SPEAKER_00:But it's hard at the time. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's definitely not easy.
SPEAKER_01:So you're with ThoughtWorks for about 16 years and then you moved on to Zulka.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:another technology company but stepping into a more senior role so tell us about leaving one company where I presume there must have been a lot of affection and connection because you've been there for so long and then moving to to the new company that you're with now Zulka
SPEAKER_00:yeah it was it was quite a big step I definitely was scared for sure because you know um know when you've been somewhere so long it's comfortable right um for sure um you know but one of the reasons i left um which was no secret is that i sort of felt like i wasn't learning anymore um and that's and that's as we've discussed earlier on today that's so important for me like and i just felt like week on week i wasn't really honing my skills anymore and i needed to go somewhere where i could not only put some of the things that i had already learned into practice somewhere else, but also to be in a really different environment. So being in a new company, obviously you learn how to navigate in a whole different way. But it made me reflect on what some of the things that I'm good at or my strengths are and also my weaknesses that I knew that I'd have to watch out for in order to kind of, when I start, to have a kind of idea about what I needed to focus on. And one of the things that, and I think it's transferable skills, and I think it's also important to understand that, you know, just because you're good in one company, it doesn't also mean that you're good in the next, because there's different structures, there's different environments, there's different politics, there's different expectations, and they don't know you, right? I had the beauty of being in a company when you're there for so long, like everyone knows you, right? And so you know that you've got a good rep, you have a reputation that is positive, And so then, you know, even when there's a mistake or something, it's like, oh, but, you know, I know them and they've got a really good track record. So when you go into a new company, you don't have that track record at all. You know, and that's that was, you know, one of the things I was quite scared about. But I knew that one of the ways I got things done before and I'm good at doing is having a network, an internal network. And so that was really key for me to build up very quickly to understand, you know, who people were, what they like doing, like what they did, you know, where they were in the company and making sure that network was quite broad and like global as well. And that's one of the things that I think always helps when you start a new company is to. get to know people right because you get to know people you get their perspectives on the company but also all of them have their own stories about the company that actually enrich your understanding of the company but make you be able to because obviously a big part of my role is being a great brand ambassador for the company and selling you know being in this it was like a sales role and you know you need to be able to really get to grips with explaining the company and understand the stories of the company yes so actually I went around so my my maybe it's a little nice tip for when you start a new company I went around um with my phone and got the voice memo thing on on on the iPhone yeah and everyone I met I said um you need to tell me your best client story or your favorite client story so I had because I you know ThoughtWorks have been there for so long I knew all the client stories and all you know and I didn't know so many at Zooka um and so then I have these voice me modes of all these different people across different countries in Zulka telling me their favorite client story and I've got them recorded and I would listen to them and get to know, you know, the stories of the company, basically. And I did that over time and it actually turned into an internal project that then we videoed people and recorded them and put them on the SharePoint site and things like that. Oh,
SPEAKER_01:fantastic.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:turned in it was just a little like rough thing on my phone I was like don't worry this is not going anywhere it's not published and
SPEAKER_01:then it became a project
SPEAKER_00:um um so yeah so that's kind of one of the things I think doing that network and learning the stories of the company and and really understand it helps you really understand the motivation of why people are there what's important what the values of the company are I mean everyone can read what values a company has on their piece of paper on their mission statement that then by talking to to people, you get to understand how that's actually carried out day to day or how that's implemented, which I think is really important in a kind of leadership role when you're joining there. I also knew that often when companies hire leaders from external companies and are brought in, there's like a organ rejection situation. It happens a lot with companies. Say more about that. So when people come in that are outside the culture but come into quite a senior role, there's often like we call it an organ rejection. rejection. and you know it happens I saw it happen a lot both in the businesses like the client businesses I worked with but also you know at ThoughtWorks as well so because often companies have a very strong culture and if you bring someone in externally to do a particular job you know actually that if their culture isn't aligned it can clash or if they don't actually approach getting to know the company and the people in the right way that can really clash and so I was so aware that that could happen to me um in the new company and it's no one's fault like really it just happens um but I thought okay well you know I don't want this to happen to me here I want to be successful in this new company that I've joined because they're super interesting and fascinating and they're going on this cool global journey and I thought, okay, well, you know, so using these techniques of, you know, really networking internally, really understanding the core values of the company, the core stories of the company was one part, but also just like getting, just really just getting to know people, just spending time in the lunchroom, eating lunch with everyone, you know, and just not having any expectations of that and just trying to be part of, you know, one of everyone Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01:CEO?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, you definitely... the biggest difference I noticed was that you realize really all the hardest decisions come to you and all the like, yeah, you don't really get any of the fun ones like anymore. Um, you definitely, yeah, you get the ones that like either people are not prepared to take without your input or, um, you know, can't take, um, uh, understandably. Um, I think I was really lucky that I have some wing people and, um, you know, in, in in the uk business but actually more globally as well in the company who i really rely on a lot to just sometimes just have a really open conversation and tell them i'm having a hard day or a crap week and they they do the same and i you know i've got a couple of people that i i go to for that and it's so important to have that where they understand the context of the company they're in the company but they're really trusted um members that you know that they're not going to go off and and talk to other people and i and i think in the ceo role you You have to have that. You can't, I think I'd really struggle if my only network was, I mean, of course I've got a really great network externally as well as, you know, I've got a couple of groups of women. We regularly have dinner and they are from other companies. And so we talk obviously confidentially, but like help lean on each other for kind of some of the more challenging aspects that you get in the sort of CEO role. A lot of them are women actually, which is awesome. Yeah. And there's other people I speak to as well, but I think you do need some people inside the company that understand the context that you can just have an open conversation with. And I'm really lucky that I have that. It's only a handful of people, but you know, that really small network internally that you can, you can, you can have a coffee on a Friday morning and go, wow, that was a week, wasn't it? You know, and they can, they can, and they lift you up right when you need it. And then you'll lift them up when they need it. And, you know, because yeah, it's otherwise it's quite quite challenging, but ultimately they, you know, a lot of them still can't take the decisions for you, you know, and you have to make, you have to make some calls sometimes that, you know, that are nice and sometimes they're not nice and sometimes they're just neutral and they're just decisions you have to make about the business. But yeah. Yeah. That's sort of, yeah, that's, yes, basically it's a little bit isolating, but a network helps, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. And with Zorke itself, you talk about a very exciting, globally expanding company. Is that what attracted you to them?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So I think a big part of what attracted me is they're not just do the software side of things. And actually the original sort of, the original starting point for the company was in real engine engineering um in in heart like hardware so creating products and services for clients so for example we helped uh create the the milk frother for Nespresso that comes with your Nespresso machine um as an example and that's one of the one of the most famous things we've done um but you know when what that means is the way that we problem solve doesn't just lead to having people who are software engineers and designers in a software perspective or apps and things like that, but actually we're thinking about it or we can think about the problem from physical to digital. And I think that's super interesting, particularly as we get into this age of AI and data and there's more sensors and inputs and everyone's got you know phones and wearables and cameras and everything i think this is a really interesting area and obviously more and more devices are connected um and so i think it's just a really fascinating breadth yes um it didn't have at my previous company um it means you can solve problems really um a bit differently um and also it means you have these physical things that you can use to do to tell stories yes it's so nice to just be able to pick up something and you know, when you have a client in the office to be like, you know, look at this, touch and feel this, this is something we did. But you also did this thing that you can't see that's, you know, in some business, you know, that you'll, you know, we'll never be able to demonstrate because it's a piece of software that's inside their business. Yes, yeah, I think that's, that's kind of what I like. And it's just basically this really lovely engineering roots. And that's obviously where I've come, like, I've come from more the software engineering side, but it's like problem solving, but using so much more in doing that and then creating that innovation through that problem solving
SPEAKER_01:fantastic fantastic sounds very exciting place to work and you've always been an advocate for inclusivity so what you're already a role model by being a female CEO in a tech industry but what are you doing to ensure the culture in Zulcay is inclusive
SPEAKER_00:yeah it's so I'm very excited that I just was able to take on the chair of our D&I board role across the group which is So it means I get to really have a hand in some of that more directly. So we just had our first meeting or board meeting a couple of weeks ago, actually. And I think that what I mean, a big thing always in tech and in engineering is around the gender balance. And I think that's going to be a big focus really for us. And it's where my passion kind of also lies. All the aspects of D&I are important. There's no doubt about it. But I think you can only really move the needle significantly if you have some focus so if you do a little bit everywhere it'll feel like nothing ever moves but if you do all that little bit in one place, all of a sudden you get, you know, you get a chunk that moves. And so that's the approach that I'm intending to try to take in that we kind of have a little bit of focus on that gender diversity side. And then I think one of the things that I found important in my experience is that it's not just about, you know, having the things like the groups or the teams calls that mean that you can check in with each other. It's actually really about core policy.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And process that is is in the business. So what we do for different aspects of life stages and making sure that that's fair for both women and men and that there's also more just also opportunities for men to take, say, time out. Yes. When say, you know, maternity paternity leaves an easy one to kind of, you know, focus on. But also that, you know, the interview process is much more, you know, visible that there's women in the company because we do have a good percentage of women in the company. It could be higher for sure. But, you know, the women are visible in the interview process. It's not just the easy option of whoever's available. We put some thought into that. And then there's other things like understanding how we communicate more transparently about some of the statistics we have and how decisions we're making impact them one way or the other, so we can at least consciously make those decisions. We don't want to have quotas and things like that, but I think if you can understand a decision you're making and be able to simulate that in a way that this could do this to say the pay gap, or this could do this to the percentage, you can still make the choice that's right for that situation, but you need to understand what the impact is. And it at least brings that awareness up. So that's the hope there. And obviously, of course, the normal things around trying to encourage women into leadership roles and how we support that. But there's a lot more work to do there to understand how we do more of that. that, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic. Well, it's fantastic that as CEO, you are an advocate of this. I want to just finally touch on, because you've talked about your career very vividly. And I mean, there's so many insights that I think will benefit people listening to this podcast. So thank you for that. But I also want, you know, you are a human and you're very human in how you lead. You've got lots and lots of energy. But I also want to talk about, you know, on more the personal side that your husband went with you to Ecuador. You've got two children how do you keep managing that balance and also look after your well-being as well
SPEAKER_00:yeah it's actually really hard i mean because really um in a role of a CEO, you are on all the time. You know, I don't have the pleasure of, you know, really switching off. Yes, occasionally I try and do that on holiday. I say, please, I turn my phone off, I put it in my bag. And then I, you know, a couple of people have like my private phone number and it's like in an emergency, call me. But please, please try and figure it out. And you're all like really smart people. I'm sure you don't actually need me for a lot of these things if I'm not there. So, yeah. It's really hard. I have a lot of like around the clock support from, you know, breakfast clubs at school to, you know, after school childminders and things like that. My husband also only works four days a week, which also helps us in our family set up so that come the weekend that we've got, you know, a few other jobs done and things like that. And he doesn't travel as much as I do. And I have to do a lot, quite a lot of travel. So I have to, you know, that I'm lucky in a situation that I can put that care in place. And because I don't have family, my family are in Australia and my husband's family are like an hour and a half away. And they do help when they can, but, you know, it's not like they're around the corner. So we don't have that luxury. So I definitely have a network of a lot of babysitters, essentially on my speed dial. I also have some really great local friends who have stepped in a few times. So I've made you know through having kids locally made a lovely network of other mums in the area and dads actually but and and there's actually a few of us mums we go out every the first Thursday of every month we go for a wine and it's whoever can come so sometimes there's three of us and sometimes there's 10 of us and it's really nice but I have relied on some of them when I've I've made a stuff up I'm definitely not on top of all the school newsletters and everything and sometimes my friends will text me and be like there is no school today don't take your children to school you know it's an inset day
SPEAKER_01:they've really got your back haven't
SPEAKER_00:they they have because I have actually taken my kids to school on an inset day before or like they'll you know and you know one time I totally forgot my kids pack lunch and one of my mum like friends locally she stepped in and brought my kids pack lunch to school I had to call her because the school had called me so and she was she was working from home and I was in the office so yeah I'm lucky enough to have that support but I do think there's um Thank you. in saying that, and I know we spoke about this before, is that there's also a lot of hidden things, right, that happen, I think, in these situations. And I've had a lot of health challenges over the last, I think, probably 10 years, but more recently in the last three or four years. And I think not many people at work are aware of them. Obviously, my trusted kind of friends at work, I think, you know, and obviously, you know, you tell PNHR about these things, but I've had like, um, four operations in the last few years. And some of them I've taken, obviously had to take time off work. Some of them I've done on a weekend and then come back to work on a Monday because, you know, that's, I've been able to, I've been lucky enough to fit it in that way, but also that, um, you know, I can, I know that I can work from home for a you know, I think there's not, there's a lot of expectation on you in a role like mine with, without the understanding that I am also a human, that I have a family, that I have to go to the doctor, probably a lot actually. And that, you know, I'm often, you know, changing medication or I'm, you know, I've just had this operation like we, you know, or something like that. And I might be recovered enough to come to work, but I might not be, you know, fully ready to, you know, my, you know, might still be having challenges with sleep and something like that. So I do think there's, you know, we're often, you know, in leadership roles, we're often asked the question or there's a lot of, expectation on us to be empathetic towards our employees that we don't often get that empathy from like you know I think you do a lot but I think a lot also you don't because there's just well you're the CEO you need to have this all sorted like and why are you not at work or why are you not at the office today or you know and so Is
SPEAKER_01:there an expectation that a CEO you should be a bit more robotic then and people don't make allowances for the fact that you're human and they have health I
SPEAKER_00:think some people do and I think some people don't. I think there's just an assumption that because often they don't know you too. And it doesn't come from a place of pure expectation. I think often people feel that, you know, as a CEO, they can't get to know me, whereas actually that's quite the opposite. Like in the people who do come in and to the office regularly, as an example, and sit with me at lunch, know that I will sit and have a drink of wine with them after work, if, you know, or have a coffee, or if I can't do it now, I will set up time to speak to them. Yes. another time and I try and keep some time in my diary every week for these kind of more urgent or not urgent but just like just chats that people need to have so I think the people that know me definitely have that empathy for me and understand even if they don't know some of the health challenges or whatever that I've had but I think the people that don't know you and just see you as a CEO and then they're not connected with you as a human being when you have these things where you're not there or off or you need a little bit of adjustment you know maybe for a couple of weeks because you're recovering or you've got some things going on with your kids or family or you know this happens for carers all the time around the world um you know maybe I feel sometimes like like you know uh yeah I I don't know I to be honest maybe I don't know um what they're thinking but yeah I do feel at least that expectation is on me yes even if it not really is there well I suppose it's because you know
SPEAKER_01:a CEO the buck stops with you doesn't it you're the one that makes those tough decisions So people don't necessarily give the same amount of empathy to you. Maybe it's because they see the title, they see the letters CEO rather than the human being. But it sounds like your approach and your leadership style is very... it's full of humanity and wanting to relate to people. So it's, you kind of almost have to live it in order to get it across to people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I definitely try. And I think I don't get it right all the time. I can't say that. I don't think any CEO could say they get it right all the time. You know, I've definitely made mistakes. I definitely make mistakes. And I don't necessarily, yeah, get every situation right. But, you know, I, But yeah, that's, I'm a human, you know, so that's the case. And I think when people get to know me, they understand that I've got, you know, the business and their best interest at heart. I think sometimes when they don't know you, that's when, I think it's not just in a CEO role to be in any leadership role. So it's been the case really for 10 years when they don't know you and you've made a decision, but you haven't been able to maybe communicate the why or the context or the situation. Like that's often where it's tricky. So, you know, really trying and being transparent about why you're Yes, very
SPEAKER_01:important. But also, thank you for being so open about this, because I think there are many people who maybe are dealing with difficult health issues and feel the need to not necessarily divulge that in the workplace. And also that we don't know what anyone's dealing with at any given time, do we?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, when someone turns up to work in the morning, whether that be online from home or in the office, you have no idea what their morning was like. And I think that's also what helps help helps a little bit is going okay well if they're you know looking like they haven't had much sleep or they've been through the ringer you know then maybe it's like you know something's happened to them this morning you just need to ask are they okay yeah and they might not want to tell you they might say they're fine but you know you've got to ask them that yes You know, I've definitely been in situations where I feel like I've been through the ringer before I turn up at work in the morning. And when no one asks, are you okay? Or notices that, you know, that it's, you know, it's okay. You know, you expect that, but it's nice when they do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic. So, and we have had such an in-depth conversation. I've really enjoyed it. What are your parting words? What are your parting words of wisdom you'd like to pass on to people who maybe have a similar ambition to you that they wouldn't? want to they love they love the business world they want to get ahead as a female leader what would be your parting words
SPEAKER_00:so maybe i'll go back to a couple of things that i said throughout i think is um tell people what you want yes like have goals i mean you don't always have they can change um you know uh throughout your career for sure um but how try and have some clear goals write them down but tell people yeah because if you don't tell people you won't get that ad hoc help You know, some people who just like, oh, you want to do this? I'll help you, you know. So that would be my number one. I think every day is a new day. If you had a crap day yesterday, every day is a new day. I think that's how you've got to see it. Don't take yesterday into today or this week into next week. Find a way to just let it go. Even if you have to still deal with something, you know, put the feeling you had yesterday, particularly if it's a negative, I mean, if it's a negative feeling more, you know, leave it yesterday and just deal with it a bit more pragmatically today. Because I think if you carry that day to day or week to week, it just, it builds up and you just explode. Yes. So every day is a new day. Lovely. And probably the last thing is, yeah, just keep at it. Basically, you know, working hard does help. You know, like I think nothing is given to you on a silver platter. You have to work.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah. Great. Lovely. Thank you so much. And if people want to get in touch with you, how can they connect with you?
SPEAKER_00:They can connect with me on LinkedIn. That's the best way to do it. So maybe you could share the link.
SPEAKER_01:with the information that comes out with the podcast. And Zolke, they can connect via Zolke's website.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Oh, and our LinkedIn page as well.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for having me, Mary. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I loved it. Thank
SPEAKER_00:you. Happy to see you. Bye.
SPEAKER_01:Bye-bye. thank you so much for listening to the she leads collective podcast if this episode resonated with you follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment change happens through conversation so let's keep this one going listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter take care and keep leading with heart
