She Leads Collective Podcast

Episode 4: Revolting Women: Why Brilliant Midlife Women Are Walking Out

• Mary Gregory • Season 1 • Episode 4

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What happens when women in midlife decide they’ve had enough—not of work, but of being overlooked?

Today’s guest, Dr. Lucy Ryan, has spent the last five years exploring exactly that. An executive coach, academic, and bestselling author of Revolting Women: Why Midlife Women Walk Out (and What to Do About It), Lucy reveals the systemic blind spots pushing women out of leadership at the peak of their power.

Named Business Book of the Year (Diversity & Inclusion) and described by The Sunday Times as “clear, pithy and enraging,” Revolting Women brings to light the stories and stats behind this exodus—and what organisations can do differently.

With two decades of experience coaching over 12,000 global leaders through her company Mindspring International, Lucy is also a lecturer in Positive Leadership and Organisational Wellbeing, and a tireless advocate for gender equity.

In this episode, we dive into:

  • Why midlife is a career breaking point for so many women
  • How Lucy’s research is changing the narrative around ageing and ambition
  • What workplaces must do to retain and support this untapped powerhouse of talent

Whether you’re a leader, an HR professional, or a midlife woman questioning what’s next—this is an unmissable conversation.

Connect with Lucy on:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drlucyryan/

Website: www.lucyryan.co.uk

🔗 Connect: marygregory.com
📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregoryleadership
📸 Instagram: @marygregoryleadership
📰 Newsletter: marygregory.com/newsletter
🎙 Want to be a guest? Get in touch!
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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello, welcome to today's episode. So here's some questions for you. Why are so many brilliant, experienced women walking away from corporate careers at the moment they hit their stride? And why aren't the organisations they're working for more bothered about this? Is it burnout, bias, or is there something deeper going on that we've been missing for far too long? Well, today's guest has been asking and answering these very questions. Dr. Lucy Ryan is a leadership coach, academic and best-selling author whose five-year doctoral research uncovered a quiet revolution. Women in midlife choosing to step out of corporate life, not because they're done, but because they're done being overlooked. Lucy is the author of Revolting Women, Why Midlife Women Walk Out and What to Do About It, a book that's been called clear, pithy and enraging by the Sunday Times and named Business Book of the Year in 2024 for diversity and inclusion. Lucy has spent over two decades working with global leaders through her company, Mindspring International, and she now lectures in positive leadership and organisational wellbeing. She's also a passionate advocate for gender equity, especially for women navigating midlife and beyond. And I'm thrilled to welcome Lucy here today to the She Leads Collective podcast. Hello, Lucy. Hello, Mary. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for being here. It's my absolute pleasure that you've joined me. I'm really delighted. And I have to say, I absolutely love your book. It's got so many important... pieces of information, insights, research, and it's written with such warmth and spirit in it. I really love the whole tone of it. So I'm curious, though, you know, like me, you're an executive coach and you've worked with many, many leaders. I get the impression you work with men and women. Very much so. What was your motivation then for writing this book and for your research?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, the the outcome of the research is not necessarily the motivation. So the motivation came actually from wanting to do a PhD. I did my master's when I was 40. I did my PhD when I was 50. And so the motivation came from wanting to do a PhD. Then I wanted to work out what would engage me for five years. I did it part-time. I'd be working every weekend, more or less, weirdly. And so I decided to study women like me. And also I was coaching quite a number of women at midlife and they were making some strange decisions. So just at that point where I I thought they'd be stepping up. They weren't. They were stepping out or sideways or down. And so I decided to study it. So the PhD came way before the outcome of revolting women.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And some of the things that you've brought out in your book, though, are that women in midlife often... I mean, I can think of one example. I think it's... Christine or Christy in the book, who goes and does a PhD herself. So there's a lot of women stories you tell who actually are doing extraordinary things in their midlife. Would you say you are one of those women then? You are a revolting woman. I

SPEAKER_00:

think I say somewhere in the book that it feels like my life is imitating art. And I kept finding it and still find it.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm sure we'll talk about the midlife collision, going, gosh, this is so interesting. And then wondering why I found it such a surprise, given that I was right in the middle of it. So what I found through the interviews is that about 70% of the women that I was interviewing were in the middle of change. They were in the middle of... making decisions to step out, step sideways, step down, try to step back in. Few of them at that point were wanting to step up, but that was the ultimate aim. So I wanted to study that. It ended up being, what is going on? What is going on with all these incredible women?

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And then after I finished the PhD, I put everything aside. I didn't want to know it anymore. But it wouldn't let me go. I wrote a different book. I wrote Lunchtime Learning for Leaders. And then still this book wouldn't let me go. And then my husband was very ill for a period of six months. And so I was kind of confined to house looking after him. And I wrote the book then. And once I started... Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think it's fantastic. And what's great about it is it's such a gift, not just to the women who you've spoken to in your research and who you're representing in the content, but also to the organisations they work for. Because what I also got from this is aweful. how much of a waste it is for organisations that they're letting women who are so talented go and they're not even seeing it. So it's almost like they've got this massive blind spot. What can be done about that, do you think? Well, we'll look more in depth in the book at the moment, but I'm just curious about what do you think can be done about this huge blind spot that organisations and society actually has? Because I think it's bigger than just work. I

SPEAKER_00:

agree. And blind spot's a good word for it. I think the crude answer, if you like, is that organisations simply have to care and take it seriously. Yes. At the moment, they kind of know. And it seems to me that we're interested in trying to achieve equity at the lower levels and But what we still do is keep reporting that at the higher levels, we've still got a sticking point of about 14% female executive directors. But we're covering the problem with the fact that we've got approximately, you know, a brilliant number of 40 or 50% equality on boards.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Even though that's being achieved through non-executive directors. Yes. So the very... data point that i'm studying um women leaving yes are what's covering the issue i they're leaving full-time executive roles they are getting part-time non-executive director roles yes so they are the statistic of equality at board level is only one part of the story. Yes,

SPEAKER_01:

yes, yes. No, it does make sense. And it is, I know, because I've been working with women in leadership for over 15 years myself. And it is interesting that so often you read articles that say, oh, we've done it now. We've evened up the table. And actually, gosh, you might have made one small step, but there's still so far to go. You mentioned the whole two steps forward, one step back. It does feel like that. It's a real

SPEAKER_00:

dance. Well, McKinsey's reported that a global phenomenon that for every two women promoted, sorry, the other way around, for every single female executive director promoted, two were exiting the workplace. Yes, yes. And And we keep reporting it and all the reports come out, the FTSE report, the McKinsey report that still says we are static. And that's been for nine years at the executive director level. And everyone keeps going, oh yeah, wow, that's interesting. So your question was, what do we do about it? And my answer would be, well, the first thing is we have to want to do something about this. Once we want to do something about it, then change will

SPEAKER_01:

happen. Yeah, it's got to become painful enough, I guess. You'd think on the one hand, because there are figures that say, you know, organisations who do have gender parity are more profitable, are more successful, attract, you know, better quality talent. There's all that evidence. That would draw people towards it. But that's kind of the pleasure that attracts change. It's not the pain that attracts change. It's almost like organisations aren't in enough pain at the moment. Or there's too much of a threat going on because I know I mean we're going away from your book here but you know talking about what's happening in the world at the moment looking at what's happening in the US for example where they're cancelling all their DEI policies

SPEAKER_00:

and that's had ramifications in the UK

SPEAKER_01:

absolutely I've

SPEAKER_00:

had clients that's affected yep women in leadership programs are are being stopped or paused so it's as if the world is going phew We don't need to take it seriously. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's also because men feel threatened as well. I think there's that sense of men feeling threatened and men having their own issues as well that maybe haven't been given attention enough. You know, I'm just thinking about the recent episode of Adolescence or the drama series Adolescence has raised all sorts of things that came up there that were useful for discussion. But that, you know, we can't do it them and us. It has to be done together is how I see things happening.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think the other thing is that very commonly women are making brilliant entrepreneurs. So they are exiting organizations, but very often they're not unhappy. They're pleased with this

SPEAKER_04:

choice.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like, well, if I can't make an organization fit around me, I can certainly make my own business fit around me. And so, you know, there is an uncommon number of women who are perfectly happy setting up their own businesses. But it's the organisations who are losing

SPEAKER_01:

here. And they're bringing in 85 billion in business revenue in the country. So they're making a significant contribution. Incredible. Okay, well, let's come to the book because I think what I really like about the book, it was really easy to read. And also, there are the three themes that you address in it. The first one, which is about power, which we've almost started to touch on already. Then we move into the midlife collision, as you call it. And then finally, you look at what we call revolting or the revolution that women are taking or can take. And it comes to quite a hopeful conclusion, which is great, although it does take us through some quite dark and deep stories, I think, of what some women are having to deal with and contend with. So let's start and just discuss what came through and what you were wanting to say around the whole power dynamics that are going on in organizations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think it's a tricky issue because it's very nuanced. It's very complex. And very commonly, men don't know that they're doing it. Yes. But there is definitely... what came through loud and clear is this sense of what, you know, I didn't coin the term gendered ageism, it's a well-known term, but where sexism meets ageism. So women have faced sexism, you know, decades in organisations. Centuries. Centuries, not much more than decades. And there's still that often unconscious sense that women are lesser than men. And that's threading its way through organizations. Now, when sexism meets ageism, we've got something particularly corrosive going on. And when we link that with the menopause and we go, oh, OK, so they're even lesser, they're emotionally unstable, they're hot and sweaty, they're full of brain fog. then let's just overlook them. So I had story after story of women either being let go, sidelined, given projects that weren't at the right level, and eventually to the point of being bullied out of an organization. And I wondered, when I was writing it, if that was, excuse me, if that was unusual, it just happened to be the dataset, but I have had story after story sent to me since. of women being effectively bullied out of organizations or hitting 50 and suddenly let go suddenly told that their face didn't fit anymore and then they were replaced by a man um so it that power dynamic yes very hard to break it's very entrenched and very difficult to break

SPEAKER_01:

yes I think this is part of the challenge is that it's systemic and it's unconscious a lot of the time we are all hard I mean I know as a woman I can remember sitting and waiting for board meetings to start and the conversation is football and cars and you know we're two of us as women in there and you were just automatically excluded from that conversation yet the men were delightful they were great men they were you could say there were allies as well but they were completely unconscious they were excluding and there was a complete lack of support i remember being a woman a menopausal woman in the workplace and there was zero support in those days yeah yeah i mean

SPEAKER_00:

it's way better now and it will enter law next year 2026

SPEAKER_02:

fantastic

SPEAKER_00:

um that i think all organizations will have some degree of a menopause policy But we also have to make sure that that doesn't render women medicalized, older women medicalized. So it's brilliant that it's entering law, but the unconscious message is also that the middle-aged woman is

SPEAKER_02:

sick.

SPEAKER_00:

So the power dynamic is fascinating. Very tricky. It is tricky. And it's why no one talks about it. It's a tightrope,

SPEAKER_01:

isn't it? A real tightrope. And also... But I'm also hearing that this isn't just about gender. It's also about leaders, senior leaders particularly, being willing to unravel their unconscious and become more conscious as leaders. Because I think that will give us access to something if leaders are willing to be more conscious and understand

SPEAKER_00:

their biases better. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And that comes back to your point is what do we do about this? And I will still say the first thing is awareness. It's awareness and desire. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. and retain their roles you know not exit yes

SPEAKER_01:

yes absolutely so i get that from the menopause side of thing of you but also i'm thinking about leadership development more generally it's not about building skills it's about building consciousness it's about building awareness so that people are acting with a greater understanding of intention and what's going on in their interactions so very much so yeah very much so great great okay so then we go on the second part of the book which is i i love the title of it the midlife collision which is such a brilliant description of what happens and i don't about you but when i was in my 20s and 30s i thought you know i was i had it sorted life was great i had no idea what was around the corner so if anyone is listening today who's in their 20s and 30s be warned you might not like what you're about to hear but yes oh get into your 40s and 50s and you're faced or very likely to be faced with what Lucy has termed as a midlife collision so tell us a bit more about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Well every single woman talked about a form of collision in one way or another and it's of no surprise to me that it was that term that was picked up by all the press um essentially midlife is a unique period of time where a number of factors hit specifically for women um we've just touched on you've got menopause um we've got care which is huge so um and i know i know men face care but 92% percent of women still pick up the lion's share of caring so in terms of care we've got aging parents which it's it's very tricky parents with dementia plus we've got often our older children or teenagers many of whom are going through some kind of mental health crisis and We've actually got quite a lot of older mothers and I term older 45 to 50 with very young children as well. So we've got care in different facets. Most of the women talked about some form of care in terms of partners, siblings, let alone children. parents and children so care was just a huge multi-faceted issue that um it's so different from when we were younger you know when when my kids were younger we could do lots of swaps yes You take them off school. I'll take yours off school. Can you take mine swimming? I'll take yours swimming. Can we put them to the after school club? I'll go and pick them up from school. You do the school run, then I'll do yours on Monday and Friday, whatever. When you're talking about your dad with, as mine had alcoholism and dementia, you are on your own. And I was helping my mum care for him. And I can't say to someone, I've got a call from my mum, could you race down the motorway and help pick my dad up from the floor? Because it needs two of us and the paramedics won't come out anymore. We were on our own doing this. So you've got menopause mixed with care, mixed with often divorce, bereavement, we'll talk about that in a moment, financial issues. So you've got women steeped in factors that are so unique to midlife.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And it's not like their shoulders suddenly get bigger because they're carrying all of this. You know, your shoulders are the same size, but you're carrying so much more.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And therefore work gives, Mary.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like, what's going to give here? It's a bit like Laurie, who, her mum had heart disease and she, she had 17-year-old twins, one of whom had anorexia. And she just sat there going, something's got to get... And it's got to give work. It's not one of these

SPEAKER_01:

two. And this is where flexibility and organisations approach and being flexible is absolutely invaluable. Because I know with Laurie's story, she was able and she worked it out with another woman, actually. They did it and then made the proposal that they worked out a job share.

SPEAKER_00:

Extraordinary story. So

SPEAKER_01:

fortunate that they were able to do that. But quite often organisations don't have that in mind. They don't have the policies. They don't have the thinking that would accommodate that. And

SPEAKER_00:

also, Laurie was under no illusions that had she not met her friend in the lift, had she not been talent director and her friend HR director, had they not been able to craft a job share director, had they not been canny enough to know the guy they reported to and that he would want a solution, that they would both have been let go within a week. Yes. presented a neat solution but lori was under no illusion that had they not been able to do that they would both have been let go

SPEAKER_01:

yes and the but the organized in that case though the organization admits they were able to keep two really talented women yeah and they were delighted about that and that has resulted in it being spread around the company as an approach Very much so. So other organisations can learn that they can keep talent if they're willing to be flexible and offer flexible solutions.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I still think that job shares are the most underrated tool. And particularly when you've got older women with experience, talent, brilliance, role modelling. Yes. you know, they will craft that

SPEAKER_01:

together. Yes, yes. Fantastic. Well, that was a great ending. Unfortunately, there were other women in your book where it didn't end so well. And, you know, there was a story, I can't remember any of the names. My memory's not that great. That's all right. But there are stories of women who went and asked if they could go, not even really part-time, it was from five to four days a week. And the organisation was like, oh, we can't possibly afford to let you do that. And so they lost that woman. They lost that

SPEAKER_00:

talent. And it was time and time again. I deliberately didn't seek out women who'd left. Funnily enough, I sought out women who were employed. And time and again I had women who simply asked to go from five days to four days which still today seems so I mean this I started this that all the research 10 years ago the thing that's changed is the menopause in that time but what hasn't changed is that leadership roles senior leadership roles we still think have to be done full time

SPEAKER_02:

yes

SPEAKER_00:

so I had women who wanted to go from five days to four days I had women who simply wanted one month off um was one woman whose both parents were dying and um they did actually die within about three days of each other and she was riven in in grief and she just wanted one month off and the organization said no

SPEAKER_01:

incredible

SPEAKER_00:

and um i just had story after story of inflexibility yes

SPEAKER_02:

yes

SPEAKER_00:

I still would advocate for organisations to have what I call life leave. Yes. So we might have a menopause policy. We might have a care policy. But sometimes it doesn't fall under that. Sometimes it's grief. Yes. Plain and simple. Not plain and simple at all. That's clumsy in my language. But it's grief. And you need time to just... So you head out a bit or come to terms with it or learn, work out how you're going to live with it. So they exit. Hence, I called it the quiet revolution because they're not making a storm. They're just

SPEAKER_01:

exiting. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking this is... It's hard not to get angry about it, I suppose, is what I'm sitting here feeling, you know, quite incensed about it all, because that example of the woman who was asking for a month, a month goes so quickly, you know, you look, you know, it seems five minutes since it was January, we're now into the end of May, you know, a month passes so quickly, they could have given that month and retained her as a talented director in their company. But instead, they lost her. And that's the tragedy of all of this is that it's these midlife collisions, although they're They're very stressful. They're temporary. They are temporary. And those women will still be there afterwards. And I can think of another story where a woman actually made a conscious decision not to step up in the organisation. She stayed where she was so she could ride the storm. And then later she stepped

SPEAKER_00:

up. It's exactly right. And you'd find quite a lot of stories like that where it's not a stepping out. It's staying steady, which is let me just keep my head down, ride this storm. And I still hear that a lot of women not exiting. The ambition is still there, but they've got to find a way. to cope. I mean, I know full well, Mary, that I would have been let go time and time again in my midlife collision. I was helping my mum with my dad lots. You know, I said when I wrote this book, I took six months off to care for my husband, who's terrific now. But I needed a lot of time. We have a lot of hospital appointments. We, you know, he couldn't walk. I needed a lot of time. I'm under no illusions either that I would have been let go. But working for myself, I could, or, you know, running Mindspring, I could shrink my workload and then expand it

SPEAKER_01:

afterwards. Yes, yes. That is the advantage of running your own show, actually, to have that autonomy, which is fantastic. But yes, but I mean, there's the loss is that the women have left things have moved on and that fortunately some of the stories have some great outcomes women take on director roles in other organizations but those original organizations because of their rigidity have lost that talent i think that's the lesson isn't it

SPEAKER_00:

yeah yeah yeah and and what they are asking for appears to be too hard which is flexibility and flexibility appears to be in other studies, 16 times more important than status than money. It's, it's being able, the care isn't going to go away. Yeah. You know, plenty of women then become older women become grandmothers and they want to, you know, they've got their kids, they've got their grandchildren and, but they still want to step up. There's no less ambition. But they want to feed all areas of

SPEAKER_01:

their lives. and what you discovered are the things that work?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's start with what they did. So as I said, about 70% of women were in the state of change and the vast majority of those exited. So I had a huge number of women suddenly exiting organisations. And what I found is that they didn't stay static or retire. In fact, I don't think I have a single story of a woman having retired. And when I went back to the women post the study, you know, five years post, none of them had retired. So they all set up. Some returned to organizations in a different way. Most of them set up businesses in a different way or studied. So like Chris went on to study a PhD. Eve now runs a completely UK first project of mindfulness programs for GPs in the UK. Becky did end up setting up a tea shop. So all sorts of them set up different businesses in one way or another. And some did enter into, went back into the workplace into big roles. So the revolution was and is, if I cannot, that somehow I have to realise my desire for self-determined growth and ambition in some way. And if I can't do it within the organization, I'll do it for myself. So what I talked about in terms of the revolution was this notion of career clocks in that for, and I'm stereotyping here, but for a lot of men, the world of work is quite linear. They enter at a certain age, 2021, 22, and they follow by and large a linear career path up. Yes. Many women follow zigzag career paths. They go in, they step out, they go in, they step up for babies, for care, for whatever it is.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And so they get to about 60. And just when men are going, right, I'm going to consider my retirement between 60 and 65, or when I take state pension of 66, or for me, it's 67. And then I'm going to enter a world of golf, retirement, sailing. I'm

SPEAKER_01:

smiling my head off because my partner has just done that and I'm still hungry to keep going. There

SPEAKER_00:

we go. And there's the different career path. Women have done this zigzag career. They get to approximately 55, 60 and they go, I've stepped out. I've done the care, the temporality. I'm through the menopause. I'm either looking or like me with my mum who's now in a care home and settled there. So it's like, oh, right. What next? It's not retirement for me. So you have this swathe of women round about 55 to 65 going, what next? And they're ready to step up. They're ready for an enjoyable career. They want to realise their ambitions like they're forged in fire. They have energy. They are the most resilient generation of any generation.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And they're ready to realize that. Fantastic. And that's the revolution. Yes. Which is how do I realize this desire to do something else with my life? Yes. That's enjoyable. That's ambitious. That's interesting. And that's meaningful. So they want something that's meaningful. And it sounds like I'm asking for the earth, I think, as I speak. But it's not.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not. And it is doable for those that are motivated. Very doable.

SPEAKER_00:

And it can be done in an organization. It can. But they are unlikely to go. OK, give it to me full on five, six days a week, 24 seven, because they'll go, no. No, I want to feed all parts of my life. So I will give you everything I've got, but for a defined period of time. I now know my boundaries.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes. Very good. Very good to hear that as well. Because I think women, certainly when I work with younger women, that's something they've really got to learn is all about boundaries. But I'm also hearing that's why so many women end up running their own businesses because they can have that balance. They can have those boundaries and it's very meaningful for them. I also get that actually what we're talking about as well, and I think, again, you reference this in the book, is how the Organizations today, we're still running on a model of what an organization should look like way, way back. You know, we're talking maybe even Victorian. I remember Stephen Covey talking about we're not in the industrial age anymore. We're in the knowledge age now. And that requires a different type of organizational structure. And we're still running organizations as if we're in the industrial age in a very linear way. without thinking what are the different ways that we could be running this. And you give a wonderful example of a woman who runs her own consultancy, actually. And the way she runs it is very different. She has it so everybody has flexibility. Can you share, because you're the expert on this, can you share a bit about how she runs her business? Because it's so inspiring to hear.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so Elizabeth runs a consultancy and they deliberately recruit people Older people. And legally, they're not allowed to just recruit older women, but they look for people who want that flexibility. And that is absolutely fine. That's the way it's run. So it's run on a project basis. How you achieve that project is absolutely fine. How many days you work? How many hours you work, as long as the outcomes of the project are achieved, that's fine. They like older people because of everything we've talked about, because of their experience, their wisdom, their talent. And they recognize that give someone my age, I'm 61, give someone my age a juicy project to work on. really interesting really enjoyable really hard and challenging and we'll work all hours that we can on it as long as we get the time back to feed the other parts of our lives so so she runs it like that

SPEAKER_01:

fantastic absolutely fantastic example of that it is possible and you know I I think what's hard about the big organisations is it is like navigating with an oil tanker. It's so difficult to affect the change, but it is possible. And it's like one step at a time, really. One person

SPEAKER_00:

influencing. Yeah, I mean, it fascinates me that if you ask a woman of about, or probably an executive aged about 55 of the training courses they're going on at work, they are simply sent on financial courses, retirement plans, and they're not sent on anything else and I think wouldn't that be amazing if organisations were canny enough to go how do we keep you not how do we let you go and retire you off but how do we keep you how do we harness all that energy and knowledge and experience and offer creative training pathways you know a bit like Christine who left did a PhD in creativity there is no doubt about it that she would have stayed had she been able to maybe spend a day a week

SPEAKER_01:

studying yes Yes. But again, that sort of, it's almost like tunnel vision, isn't it, that many organisations have. And there's something there as well, though. What I'm thinking is if organisations, or we've got people here who are in talent and HR in organisations, what policies could start to be developed? There's something about even line manager level, having those conversations with those older women about what are their motivations? Where do they see themselves going? Are they wanting to step up rather than I mean, I can remember being in talent meetings where, you know, and this applied to men as well. If you were in your mid to late 40s, you were over the hill. And that's both genders. So there is something about... Don't the men who may be thinking I want to retire in their 60s. Don't put your map onto women. They have a different way of looking at it. And your research absolutely demonstrates that. So line managers could quite easily have different types of conversations with the women in their midlife on their team. And they better be good at doing it.

SPEAKER_00:

Otherwise they'll be eaten alive. You know, I do. I call it. as part of a solution, midlife check-ins, that you're right. Line managers need to be able to have these conversations of where do your ambitions lie. The thing is, Mary, is that we don't often know where our ambitions lie until we're steeped in care and faced with And faced with our mortality, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So I'm really interested in that, in that every single woman, this was completely unexpected to me in the study, every single woman mentioned death to me. Wow. And it was like, wow, I didn't expect to be studying that.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

That taste of mortality fuelled this next stage.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Is that to do with the fact they're caring for people who are dying or because they're recognising their own ageing process and what's around the corner? All of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Either they're caring for parents or maybe they've had cancer or some form of disease that's threatened their own mortality or sibling or partner or friend. Yes,

SPEAKER_02:

yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Any and all of that has gone, oh, life's short. And that has fuelled the revolution by and large. Yes, yes. And... So often you could do a very good midlife check-in. How are you? Where are your ambitions? What's going on? But until you're steeped in the middle of it, you don't know what's going to come, what's suddenly going to occur to you. And there's no doubt about it that that taste of mortality... fuels your next stage

SPEAKER_01:

yes because i you know again i can only speak for myself here as well is that i know what keeps fueling me is i want to make a difference with with the year that's why the meaningful piece is so relevant yes with the years i've got left i want to feel like i've made a difference here a positive difference yeah so um that absolutely yeah i can see why that fuels that Incredible. This is the most incredible book that I think every leader in any organisation should read, particularly those that have got a population of midlife women who are, you know, that's a real talent source for them. I'd like to just, you know, invite you to share what sort of your parting shot or what's the final thing you'd like to say? Having written this book, done the research, all the learning you've taken on board from it, what is your final sort of...

SPEAKER_00:

Nugget, I suppose. Final nugget. Can I have several? You can have as many as you like. My final nugget for organisations would be take it seriously. Get aware. Take it seriously. Do something about it. For midlife women, I would urgently say you're not alone. When you are in the middle of the midlife collision, it feels so lonely. Yes. And there's so much burnout going on. And I would say you're not alone and it is temporary. Yes. And then to society at large, if I can be that grand, I would say, look at all your midlife women, because there is your source of resilience and brilliance for everyone. solving

SPEAKER_01:

all the next stages of life. Fantastic. And we mustn't leave without mentioning the sparkle of the midlife female's genius, which you mentioned in your book. I love that. I don't think I've said it properly. What's the term? The sparkle of female genius. The sparkle of female genius.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Julia Kristeva, who was the Belgian philosopher that I studied as part of my PhD, who is very impenetrable. She really is. But then I came across this sentence of the sparkle of female genius and went, oh, my God, I've got to weigh in. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. We've we've got to get more of that sparkle out there. Definitely. Lucy, it has been an absolute joy to speak with you today. I think you've shared some really important insights and valuable insights for so many women, but not just women, but also for men and for organisations. So keep spreading your wisdom. Thank you. Thank you. thank you so much for listening to the she leads collective podcast if this episode resonated with you follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment change happens through conversation so let's keep this one going listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter take care and keep leading with heart

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Mary Gregory

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