Episode 5 - Fearless Journalism, Real Reform : Award Winning Journalist Liz Perkins

What happens when a journalist refuses to stay silent and holds power to account?

Award winning journalist Liz Perkins has become an expert in speaking truth to power. In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, Liz shares the remarkable stories behind her fearless reporting—from exposing misogyny in Welsh rugby to influencing landmark Family Court reform through the Domestic Abuse Bill.

Currently Night News Editor at The Sunday Telegraph, Liz has also reported from Afghanistan, moderated events at the World Economic Forum, and contributed regularly on Times Radio. Her work has changed laws, made headlines around the world, and challenged institutions to do better.

We explore:

• How Liz led the award-winning End This Injustice campaign
• The impact of uncovering sexism at the heart of sport
• What it takes to pursue justice through journalism
• The cost—and the necessity—of integrity in leadership

This is a gripping conversation with a woman who doesn’t just break stories—she makes history.

Connect with Liz: 

Linked In:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/liz-perkins-7b667b75/

Instagram: journoliz

🔗 Connect: marygregory.com
📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregoryleadership
📸 Instagram: @marygregoryleadership
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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to today's episode. Thank you for being here. Now, what would you do if, when as part of your job, you uncovered embedded organisational misogyny? Or if in another instance you discover that the law is lacking in protecting children from the risk of being exposed to their abusers? Well, if you are anything like my guest today, then you would get into action and don't give up until the law is changed or the organisation has committed to sorting itself out. And today I am delighted to welcome Liz Perkins. Liz is a multi-award winning journalist whose tenacity and sense of purpose have driven real change in our society. Liz has worked across the national press, holding senior roles at the Daily Express and the Sunday Telegraph, and is a regular voice on Times Radio. Her investigative work has exposed sexism and misogyny in Welsh rugby, and this earned her the Sports Journalist of the Year and Journalism of the Year awards. She's also lobbied and helped reform family court through the Domestic Abuse Bill and advised industries globally on domestic abuse. And if that wasn't enough, she's also reported from the front lines in Afghanistan, including meeting members of the Taliban. Liz also holds a postgraduate diploma from Oxford Said's Business School, where she focused on strategy, culture and resilience in the media world. She's a powerful role model for what it means to lead with integrity, courage, clarity and tenacity. And I'm so pleased to share this conversation with you. welcome to

SPEAKER_00: 2:18

you Liz I don't know how you fit it all in I just I just manage it I don't ask me how it's just lots of different things to juggle and I just do it you know I mean lots of different opportunities are coming my way and you've just got to judge whether or not you accept them and yeah so it's been a Quite a busy time is all I can say.

SPEAKER_01: 2:38

Yes, yes. So lovely to have you here and thank you for giving up your time for me. Well, let's start then with thinking about your career and how you got going and what was motivating you, you know, what your choice of career was in the first place and how it's actually evolved to be where you are now. So tell us about what started you

SPEAKER_00: 2:57

off. I mean, when I was 13 years old, I decided I wanted to be a journalist and I wanted to be a tennis writer. And you have to understand I mean when I was growing up I would always watch tennis I'd always watch Wimbledon and I was pretty obsessive about watching it I went to the tournament when I was really young and I just thought this is what I want to do I mean I wanted ideally to become a tennis player but sadly I didn't have the talent for that so I thought the next best thing is to become a tennis writer and at the time you had Andre Agassi sort of tearing across the court with his long hair and looking a bit of a rock star and you had like Goran Ivanovic as well slightly more sullen but still super talented and you know Pete Sampras and it was just one of those eras of tennis that you thought yeah this would be great to have the opportunity to speak to these guys and I was absolutely determined that I was going to do this so I'd already decided that I was going to go and do English at Kingston University I absolutely researched every thing I'll be honest I went to Kingston University because it was near to Wimbledon and I used to be a security guard at Wimbledon and I used to protect the players including Serena Williams and got to speak to her dad got to speak to Venus Williams yeah I had to turn this is so it's quite funny actually I had to turn Jim Currier the former Wimbledon finalist away from my gate because he had the wrong accreditation and had to do the same to Sir Cliff Richard as well you know I did take my job very seriously And then I went from there and I decided I had to do journalism either at City or Cardiff. I ended up in Cardiff University and did the postgraduate diploma there. And that really set me, you know, set me up really for my career. And I ended up, first of all, going to my local paper, which is the South Wales Evening Post in Swansea and just did like general news, really. And I would just go whenever I went to Wimbledon, I would write stories about Wimbledon each year. And, you know, it was just like a really good grounding before I became a health reporter. And then one day I had a phone call from the Ministry of Defence saying, would you like to come over to Afghanistan because we've got all these health workers working out of the field hospital in Camp Bastion and at that point in time it was the biggest story in the world and I just thought right I'm getting on the plane I'm not sure what my mum and dad thought at the time I think my mum was slightly horrified and I ended up going out there six times and I still remember landing in the early hours in Camp Bastion in the Hercules and the dust throwing up my face and you know when you're travelling over there you're plundering into darkness for half an hour because you just don't know if the Taliban were going to attack our plane or not and you just look at the person next to you thinking I really hope that this isn't the last person I'm going to be alive next to you know it's just kind of quite scary when you've got time to think about it but yes just go for it and do it and you just think this is a significant part of our history and we've got to write about what's really going on in the country you know because otherwise nobody back home in the UK would have known the truth of what really was happening

SPEAKER_01: 6:16

yes yes and what did you learn about yourself from that experience because it does sound like you acted fearlessly and you mentioned it's scary when you think about it but I know if I'd been out there I would have been terrified in the moment so how did you manage all of that? I think you've kind

SPEAKER_00: 6:35

of how can I say this you almost have to realise that and be almost comfortable about your own mortality is probably the best way to say, because you know something potentially could happen. You know, when you're in Camp Bastion, yes, you'd hear an explosion going off outside and you'd hear different things like that. But when you're on the ground in Garmesia and I would go out with the troops and basically we would just be doing like what they call the wagon wheels. So it was almost like resupplying all the bases and you get to meet all these guys. And, you know, I went to one base and beyond it was no man's land so it was between Afghanistan and Pakistan and because it was raining we were lucky that the Taliban weren't attacking it you know so they would be attacked like a hundred times a day normally and I think the guys were kind of a bit surprised to see me because obviously they don't expect a journalist to appear and it's a girl as well and they were like oh wow because I didn't have any training to fire at anybody and you're not allowed to have anything like that. So it's just literally, you're relying on the guys around you because it was generally guys rather than women to protect you if anything went wrong. And then you'd return back to the base and they give a briefing and say, oh, there was two suicide bombers operating in the area. And then they would show me a picture of like a bomb, basically that they found the day before. And they wouldn't tell me about it until we got back. And I said, look, you know, I know we're not on some like 18 to 30 holiday in Ibiza you can tell me you may as well tell me because you know this is what it kind of up against is that there is a risk attached I know there was a risk and you know there's times when I went out there like to Nad Ali and Babaji and basically the Afghan people would pick up the inside of a bomb and give it to the British troops you know who I was with and you know there's times when I heard the Taliban fighting on this area called the Dash and you know one of the soldiers said to me oh have you ever been in a base when it's come under attack and I said no not yet you know and it was just you didn't know what was going to happen next and I went to a meeting once with the with some of the regiment that I was with I was with the Royal Welsh and basically you know met all these different Afghan police and it was after I'd left, I discovered that one of them turned out to be Taliban and that actually he looks, there's a picture on my LinkedIn. There's a guy on there who looks like he's sleeping. He's not sleeping. He was telling everybody where we were, what we were doing, what our plans were, all that kind of thing. And you just think, if he really wanted to, he could have just picked up his gun and just shot any of us. And you just, I think when you think back on it, you think, wow, the risks that I took and they took. And,

SPEAKER_01: 9:32

you

SPEAKER_00: 9:32

know, it kind of hits home. But at the time, you're just doing your job. You're just trying to find out. more about what's happening and you can imagine the reaction I got in Afghanistan because you don't see any women no I only recently saw a couple of Afghan women at an event in London it just because you they're almost invisible over there so when they saw me they thought I'm either a doctor or I'm a soldier's wife you know it's kind of Kind of strange, but you just try and be as respectful as possible because obviously their culture is very different. And yeah, it was an experience I'll never forget. What I take from it is I feel very calm in situations when there's really important breaking news. Like when I was night news editing on the Sunday Telegraph, a few months back when Donald Trump was shot, I had to contact our editor and say, look, Trump's been shot. And he's like, is he dead or is he alive? And I was like, he's alive, but we have to change the front page in half an hour. And I feel really calm in that situation because I think after going to Afghanistan and facing all the issues out there, anything is easy after that. You know, it changes your perspective. And I guess seeing the way that the army leads, it almost impacts on the way you lead as a person as well. Yes. You know, after that, it's so incredible. I

SPEAKER_01: 10:59

can imagine. So nothing can be as nothing can be as dramatic or as frightening as circumstances. But I'm also getting the contrast between your very clear ambition to be a sports reporter and to report on tennis. And actually you end up in Afghanistan. It just shows you you never know where your career is going to go and

SPEAKER_00: 11:20

how

SPEAKER_01: 11:20

it might

SPEAKER_00: 11:20

evolve. No, exactly. I mean, if anybody told me that at the beginning, I would have been like, really? But apparently when I was a kid, my grandmother turned around and said, pointed at Kate Agee on the TV and said, wouldn't you like to be like her? So maybe something of that stuck. I don't know. Maybe it sunk

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

in, yes. Maybe it did. Maybe it did. I totally admired what you did, yeah. Yeah, incredible, incredible reporter. And so are you for doing that as well. So you returned from Afghanistan and how did your career evolve on the back of that?

SPEAKER_00: 11:57

I've got to be honest I felt quite bored when I came back and knowing that I wouldn't be able to go back again you know I did six times out there and it was amazing and I remember having to start learning to fly planes to kind of keep the adrenaline going really um so I I did a lot of flying lessons just to come by that and I just thought I don't know how I'm going to beat this

SPEAKER_01: 12:20

yes

SPEAKER_00: 12:20

I don't know how I'm going to better that story yes and I ended up um well I was moonlighting on the national press so I was working in Wales but I was also sneaking up to London and I was working there and I'll say this some of my stories from Afghanistan ended up in the sun which was know they picked up on i didn't give to them and also like the express and daily star and i had a foot in there as well so i was basically doing working across different national newspapers and one day when i was working between um the south west evening post was online and um also the express you know basically i was tipped off about a story to do with the family court And it was just such an awful, awful story where there was basically a man who had, it was both of his children and it was in prison for 15 years. He decided to live stream the abuse of both his kids to pedophiles across the world. So that's why he was in jail. But he decided that he didn't want them to change their surname

SPEAKER_02: 13:31

and

SPEAKER_00: 13:32

he didn't want them to go on holiday and he didn't want his ex to sell the house. And he was trying to prevent this through the family court. And you just think, this is Britain, this shouldn't be happening. And it just seemed extraordinary to me that that was even going on, because I guess unless you were getting divorced and you were fighting for the custody of the children, you didn't have any idea this kind of thing was happening, you know. And basically, I went speaking to somebody on the news desk of the Express because I was news editing there. And he was like, that's an amazing story. And I said, I just can't believe it. And he's like, oh, this is really, really good. And he kept on to me and on to me about it. And basically, you know, Wales Online were like, fine, yeah, you can use that in the Express. And it ended up on the front page. It ended up being a double page spread. And the Endless Injustice campaign was born because the editor at the Express, Gary Jones, just went, this is unbelievable. You know, so the story went out there. And I was shocked at the response because I had so many emails and people ringing and, you know, because nobody had really bothered to go. We need to do something about this. I mean, the thing is, all these campaigners had stood outside like different courts in London campaigning for ages to get something done. And then finally. a national newspaper, which is obviously a Tory newspaper. We're supporting them. And the reason why I say that is because it's significant. You had Boris Johnson's government in power. They had a massive majority. The reality is they didn't really have to do anything about a campaign like mine. But the reality for them was I was actually writing all these horror stories about what was going on in the family court and the fact that children were being handed over to their abusive fathers or you know, mothers and basically in some cases that they were being killed. And, you know, you can't really justify handing over children to paedophiles, even if they are related to them.

SPEAKER_02: 15:32

And

SPEAKER_00: 15:33

as the stories flowed with, you know, there was one mum who was jailed alongside Rose West just for trying to see her children. I mean, they were just awful, awful stories. I interviewed Rachel Riley of Countdown because her friend was threatened by her estranged husband and you know he wanted basically set fire to the house it was dreadful and I had people like Mel B getting on board I had Sammy Woodhouse getting on board I had Jess Phillips I had all these incredible people wanted to support the campaign like David Challen and you name it they were all coming out in support of this campaign and after a year the government just went right, we are going to change the domestic abuse bill because of the light you've shone through these stories. And, you know, that was after a year. And you just think, well, I can't just sit here for another year and just like, wait, I've got to do something else. And I knew that economic abuse was an issue and that non-fatal strangulation was an issue and threats to share intimate images was also an issue as well. And I just thought, right, let's just campaign in those, see if they can get in the domestic abuse bill. And they were also criminalised too. So it, and then, you know, when that came through, it was amazing because the thing is, I actually had the chance to see Theresa May in Davos and she was the one who came up with the domestic abuse bill. And I said, you have no idea of the difference you have made by introducing that bill because there's never an opportunity to say thank you to people when they actually get it right. And especially to politicians But I think she deserved that because, you know, people always did her down, but the reality is that piece of legislation was huge to, you know, so many people and it is making a difference. I'm not going to sit here today and say the family court is 100% perfect. I wish it was. They aren't, you know, they did introduce barring orders. They did allow domestic abuse victims to go through different entrances to, you know, their ex-partners who were carrying out the abuse. But, you know, and they have, it has made a difference. and I will open up courts more to journalists. I mean, I was thrown out of a family court in Swansea. Oh my goodness. And I had to get the lawyers involved and everything because they weren't allowed to do that. But things are changing and to be able to make a difference to domestic abuse sufferers, I think it's really important. Completely. Why should they be treated badly? All they wanted to do is love their kids. Yes. And why shouldn't they have had the access to their kids in the first place? place but because their exes who were violent towards them were presenting better in the court they had access to the children it doesn't make any sense at all

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

you've kind of taken my breath away I'm sat here mouth open because you've gone straight from one thing to another to another in terms of the differences you've made Liz so starting off at the beginning with the double page spread in the Daily Express that just shows the power of media to make a difference but also the fact that so many other people came on board with you and it really snowballed but you just kept going and then beyond

SPEAKER_00: 18:44

that but I could see the domestic abuse bill on the horizon and I knew that if I could get you know into that and get that there was the ability to change the law so I could see that was the option and that was a means of making change so you know you never know at the beginning whether you're going to be able to do that and it is actually quite rare for journalists to be able to change the law but the fact is we do have that power we can make a difference and the thing is too I mean when people say who is the most powerful person in the country well people it's not the prime minister it was always Rupert Murdoch right because he was the one who made the prime minister and people sometimes forget that the power of the media is so strong that I mean our job is to give a voice to the voiceless and to hold power to account and I think a campaign like that does both so

SPEAKER_01: 19:37

absolutely and what what a difference it's made and you've made as the person who has led on that I'm curious then and this is kind of stepping away a bit What's been your experience as a woman in journalism, navigating your career and leading campaigns like that? What challenges have you had to face because you're a woman?

SPEAKER_00: 20:00

I mean, I was always brought up to believe that I could do anything in this life. And I think that makes a difference. I mean, my late father said to me that you can do whatever. And I always found it really strange when I came up against men who just thought, oh, you know, you're just going to, you know, somebody said to me, oh, yeah, you won't need to be a journalist because you'll be married and you'll have kids and all this. Well, I didn't do that. I just stayed to being a journalist and being a night news editor and all the rest of it. So I kind of ignored him. And I think you've just got to ignore people, basically, because when I went to Afghanistan, I remember this random woman saying to me, or you know what is a pretty girl like you doing going over there why don't when are the men go? And I said, oh, they're all too scared to go. So that's why I'm going. So, you know, and it's funny because sometimes it's like women kind of sort of say stuff to you. It's just like, because I always travel across the world and, you know, you're thinking you have to do it on your own and you get people at the airport going, why are you doing this? And you're on your own and you're like, yeah, but I'm meeting people. So I'll see you later. And it's just like, really? I mean, you know, this is 2025. So I think during my career, Yes, I've had challenges. Yes, people have... been sexist yes people have been I don't know the fact that I'm Welsh as well has been an issue for some people

SPEAKER_02: 21:19

they just don't

SPEAKER_00: 21:20

they don't necessarily expect somebody with my kind of accent to be doing what I'm doing I've had that too but generally I think you know you're not always helped to get to where you want to go yes you've just got to have the determination just to do it yourself and not expect anybody to lift you up I mean you know that that's the fact nobody do

SPEAKER_01: 21:42

you feel you've

SPEAKER_00: 21:42

haven't been lifted up then you've had to do it all yourself yeah Yeah, every step of the way. It's just like, you know, sometimes you think, oh, I've done this and I've done that and I've achieved this and I've achieved that. But it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody from nowhere is going to give you a job or give you an opportunity. Or, you know, the thing is, if they see you've got ability, they sometimes try and hold you back. And that's the frustrating thing is that you can do all these amazing things, but yet, you know, people don't necessarily want to propel you because obviously you're a threat to them. Yes. And especially, I guess, when I, you know, I went to Oxford University and people suddenly go, oh, because they can't compete with it. And, you know, that obviously causes an issue. What did you

SPEAKER_01: 22:29

what was what did you learn from your experience at Oxford?

SPEAKER_00: 22:33

Wow, that was, it was something else. I mean, the reality is I've spent all my life in journalism. I know journalism inside out, but I think for me to get to the next step and go into more editing roles, I thought it was important to do Oxford. I originally did a women's leadership course and then I did, you know, the postgraduate diploma in executive organisational leadership. I learnt really that I could do things that I've never done before in my life and succeed at them, I think, is probably the best thing to say, because I was learning about culture, about strategy. I mean, I've never written a strategy in my life, you know, but I understood. I was doing interviews with my CEO and all the top people in my company at the time to understand what their thinking was behind the strategy, and I had to basically look at this and go well does this work does this not work and I found that interesting and also strategic leadership and I got a chance to do a thesis on the media and how you know all the changes around the digitalization of you know what I do day in day out and the impact and I got to interview a lot of top people within our industry to do with that whether that was the guardian or But I think the one thing that Oxford taught me really is that you can just do anything. And I mean, I was organising events at Blenheim Palace, which I've never, ever done in my whole entire life. And it just, you know, and I got the... Prime Minister of Antigua to stop off as part of this week of you know celebration for our graduation and I you know I'm a friend of the CEO of the International Banking Federation so she came and I you know I had a member of the aristocracy there of Blenheim I was the sister of the Duke who owns Blenheim and it was just you know I think I realized that there were no and that you can just do anything if you put your mind to it. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

So that gives you the confidence. It's actually taking the action. But I also hear you've got some very useful contacts in your network as well that you've developed over the years. You're able to call on those.

SPEAKER_00: 24:49

I think the reality is that they tell you what you learn in Oxford is that networking is key. And when you're being a journalist full time, sometimes there's not always time to go out after work and there's not always the opportunity but that's the one kind of penny drop moment I had was that networking is crucial because that really opens a lot of doors and sometimes it opens more doors than qualifications do and I've randomly met people in all sorts of different places whether that's Davos or the UN in New York or just even going to embassies to events and things and they've turned out to become really good friends and you end up working alongside them and it's just turned out to be a great opportunity actually so you just don't know what's around the corner and I just think you need to be open-minded about that yeah definitely

SPEAKER_01: 25:40

yes so can I also ask you then because I'm curious about when you wake up in the morning what is it that really is driving you what do you think you know some people might wake up and think oh well you know what's you know just gonna have a nice day today but what is really motivating you is it because because the things that you're doing are all about making a difference and changing things for the good Is that what comes to your mind when you wake up in the morning? Or are you not even aware of that?

SPEAKER_00: 26:07

I just feel like I fall into things. Right, it's interesting. I just do. I don't, I just, how can I say this? I mean, when I started my career, I mean, you know, I just wanted to go around the world and write about tennis, to be honest. And I would have been, and if I'd had that opportunity to do that, I probably would have just done that. And, you know, the last couple of years, I have gone to Wimbledon, I have interviewed Novak Djokovic and Carlos Alcaraz and all those kind of people. I can't honestly sit here and say I get up in the morning and I think I want to do this. It's just sometimes you get emails coming in and you get messages coming in on LinkedIn and all the rest of it and it can just change the course of your day I mean obviously when you're night news editing you're night news editing and you're just thinking about that and you know but I'm also in the process of writing a book at the moment as well so that's really you know focusing in on that trying to get that towards submission at the moment it's non-fiction so I can't really go into what it's going to be but I know that that's got the potential to be really big and you know that's all I can say at the moment and is it linked

SPEAKER_01: 27:11

to the things you've campaigned for

SPEAKER_00: 27:13

or no no no that's the interesting thing it's just I basically came up with an idea after doing an interview a couple of years back and I've just been like I was quite busy last year and it's just a case of trying to find an agent yes that's a challenge in itself but back in February I mean I did work with an agent for a while and then she decided she didn't think she was the right fit for the project so back in February I I got a new agent and basically I just fired off 12 emails one night. And one of them, I was meant to be doing scheduled sends. And one of them accidentally, I was just talking to a friend and it just fired through. And then five minutes later I had a response and it turns out she owns the agency. And so this was a Monday night. And then by Thursday I was offered a contract. And apparently I was speaking to somebody from the hate festival and they went, that doesn't happen. And I was like, okay. So, um, Yeah, I wish I could say that I have an idea of what I'm going to do when I get out of bed each morning. But when I'm not working, I'm never really not working because there's always somebody... getting in touch saying can you write this story can you do that what about this what about that interview yeah and um yeah there's a lot of that going on at the moment it's like the other day I was invited to go to Stockholm to a defense and security conference and that came out of nowhere so I've just come back from there um I can't really go into what was discussed because it's all Chatham House rules um but yeah I mean it's just you know I just have had just fantastic opportunities and I just get asked to do you know everything from going to award ceremonies in Jeff Bezos's house in Washington and going to meet him and Lauren Sanchez to meeting Bob Iger at his home in LA and you know the head of Disney so I just I wish I could tell you incredible I mean you know I know tomorrow I'm like news editing and I know Saturday I'm like news editing but it's just opportunities just pop in and you just you either have to go with it or you don't and I generally go with a lot of it

SPEAKER_01: 29:18

so something you do then is say yes is what I'm hearing and when the opportunities present themselves you go for it

SPEAKER_00: 29:25

yeah you do but I guess you have to think how often do you say yes because you're saying no to other things by saying yes to the ones I do absolutely that's a very good saying yeah we do the thing is it's like there's a time when I just went said yes to everything because I just started with the experiment to see you know Is it worth doing all this? And then you sit back and go, right, well, that doesn't really work. But if I go and do this, then this does. So, yeah. So you're

SPEAKER_01: 29:51

learning to be more discerning, are you? Yeah, basically, yeah. So what other things you say yes to now?

SPEAKER_00: 30:00

Just really high profile interviews and things like that. I mean, I'm trying to get like interviews with a number of different sports people. And, you know, there's the guys in there. telegraph sports desk saying to me, well, I'm going to get an interview with this person or this person. And, you know, obviously I'd love to be back at Wimbledon. Just, you know, the thing is, and obviously I did the Welsh rugby investigation as well as the sexism. I'm glad you

SPEAKER_01: 30:25

brought that up because I was going to say we can't not have We can't not mention this in this conversation. So tell me how that came across. So you were sports journalist and you won sports journalist of the year for this investigation. But what actually happened?

SPEAKER_00: 30:41

Well, ironically, the ironic thing is that I've never officially been a sports journalist, but I've won these awards because of that investigation. And what happened was the source of mine... I'm just going to...

SPEAKER_01: 30:55

say what it is. So this was the investigation around sexism and misogyny with the Welsh Rugby Union that you uncovered. So tell us how

SPEAKER_00: 31:05

that happened. Basically, a contact of mine said, look, that they knew a woman who was going to take the Welsh Rugby Union to tribunal. And in this document, it said that she was branded Hitler by a member of staff there, that she was threatened with rape in a hotel room by another member of staff there. And I mean, how can I say this? I mean, there were staff saying all sorts of unrepeatable things that I can't say on this podcast because it's just so rude about women. And yeah, it was just, you know, it was horrendous just to even have that against you. And she was prepared to speak, so... But her prerequisite to the conversation was that it was only going to have to go into a national. It can go into a Welsh publication because a lot of them are too close to the Welsh Rugby Union. And I thought, fair enough. So basically, I went to one national broadsheet and they kind of like messed me about for a couple of weeks and that didn't really happen. But I went to the Daily Mail and within the day of that happening, they were like, right, know that very day they were like yes let's just get this done and i was like hurrah you know finally the story's going to come out there and i'd written written the piece and i went to the lawyers the lawyers were happy with it and the wlu were clearly not um you know and they were obviously you know there were conversations between the lawyers and the daily mail and the wlu and uh Yeah, we went through with the story and it went out there that night. And you can imagine, you can imagine the Welsh rugby fans were very supportive of what I did. Not very supportive of what the Welsh Rugby Union did. And, you know, that story went around the world, you know. So you've got people in New Zealand and South Africa and everybody knowing about that story. And basically I uncovered that the Welsh women's players were only being fed oats you know for dinner and things like that and giving wraps and stuff and like the Welsh men's team they were getting lovely hot dinners and then I also yeah and then that's that's crude that's almost quite crude

SPEAKER_01: 33:20

isn't it let's give the women oats for dinner and the men can have

SPEAKER_00: 33:23

that really decent food it's just like something else isn't it and then so basically it covered down the telegraph and then I did a further story in ITV Wales about a woman who was sexually assaulted in the cupboard in the Principality Stadium in Cardiff so I mean given all of that I mean as you said I won the Sports Journalist of the Year award at the Wales Media Awards and also I won Journalism of the Year award because I got that story nine months before the BBC Wales and their investigation so I mean you know sometimes things land on your lap and you know it's a stick of dynamite and you know the thing is going to blow up because people you know you don't don't expect that. I mean, this business with£100 million turnover and they really should be behaving themselves in an appropriate way. And, What has happened

SPEAKER_01: 34:14

as a result of you uncovering

SPEAKER_00: 34:15

that?

SPEAKER_01: 34:16

Have they cleaned their actor? Well, the

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

CEO had to resign because of it. People from the board had to leave. And, you know, that was really the impact. So, yeah, and they've got like a new CEO who's a woman in charge and it's changed. But I mean, you know, there's still I feel that there's still more people who should really go when there are people working in rugby across the world who frankly shouldn't be and, you know, deserve to be exposed as well. Hopefully one day they will be.

SPEAKER_01: 34:43

Yes. I also think, you know, I'm just thinking to my ex, because I watch football, I don't watch rugby. But, you know, when the women won, the England women won the European Cup, it was fantastic and we all celebrated. But there's still that sense of, oh, well, it wasn't the men. You know, women's football isn't as good as men's football. It's different. That's all it is. They still won the European

SPEAKER_00: 35:05

Cup. Yeah, no, it's crazy, really. Because the thing is, I mean, in a sport like tennis, you feel like you've got more... equality, but, you know, I know it's not totally perfect, but nobody really thinks about it. You know, they talk about Martina Navratilova, like, you know, she's the same as one of the guys and Steffi Graf and all the rest of it. They don't really think. It's just, they go, wow, look at Serena Williams, what she's achieved. But it's just, I don't understand why we haven't got that and why there isn't that sort of sense that, you know, women winning football matches or football tournaments at such a scale isn't a major achievement because frankly it is it's a lot of work that many of us don't see we just see the glory afterwards you know

SPEAKER_01: 35:48

yes yes so you have navigated your career you are someone who continually is looking for things that you can expose that are hot topics that will make a difference and change things that are happening in the world what is your advice to other women who may want to take this similar course to yourself what would your advice be to them

SPEAKER_00: 36:10

well and just to be determined and just to ignore any snide comments along the way and just to keep going because Yes. Yes. Yes. I have got to Wimbledon. I have got to interview the top tennis players in the world. And it was an amazing opportunity. It took longer than I thought it was going to take, let me tell you. But I got there. And the important thing to do is just never give up on your dreams and never let anybody stop you, is all I can say. Yes,

SPEAKER_01: 36:53

yes. Fantastic. Liz, thank you so much. There's been so much that you've shared today. And I'm sure, you know, maybe we need to have you back another time because I'm sure there's more we can share. I'm sure... I can't wait to hear about when your book is out, maybe come back and we'll speak to you again. But you are such a fantastic inspiration for how to really navigate a very powerful career and be making a difference, not just in your own niche, but, you know, to the world as a whole with some of the changes that you've influenced. So thank

SPEAKER_00: 37:23

you. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: 37:29

Take care and keep leading with heart.