She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women

Episode 12 - Rising Fast and Staying Grounded with India Hatfield

• Mary Gregory • Season 1 • Episode 12

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What does it take to lead with impact in your twenties without burning out? In this episode, I speak with India Hatfield, Senior Manager in AI Product Innovation at Capgemini Invent. India shares her journey from GSK’s Future Leaders programme to senior leadership in tech—all before turning 30. We explore how ambition evolves, how to say no without guilt, and what inclusive leadership really looks like in action. India’s clarity, humour, and honesty are a breath of fresh air. Whether you're early in your career or supporting the next generation of leaders, this episode is packed with wisdom and humanity.

Connect with India on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/india-hatfield-048a24bb/

If you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator

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SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. What does it take to rise fast and stay grounded in a world moving at the speed of AI? My guest today is India Hatfield, Senior Manager in AI Product Innovation at Capgemini Invent and someone whose career has already spanned supply chain leadership, data science and cutting edge technology, all before turning 30. A graduate of the GSK Future Leaders Programme and the University of Exeter, India is sharp, curious and full of drive. But she's also unafraid to pause, reflect and reset to pace her career on her own terms. I've known India a long time. She's my daughter's bestie and I've observed her navigate her career and been so impressed. I thought she'd be a great guest and role model. So I'm really pleased she's here. I'm hoping that in this conversation, we're going to be talking about what it means to lead as a young woman in a male-dominated space, the choice to step back without stepping away, and how her awareness of gender and identity has shaped the kind of leader she wants to be. Whether you're early in your career or decades in, I think you'll find India's perspective refreshing and honest, and I hope deeply relevant. India, thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having me, Mary. What a wonderful intro. I've got a high bar to live up to.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you're very impressive, India. That's why I invited you here. So let's get going and just talk a bit about your motivation and your career and what got you started, really. Because I know that you studied, was it biochemistry at university?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So what then led you into the career that you've now chosen?

SPEAKER_00:

Great question. So, yeah. After my biochemistry degree, or during actually, I did a placement year. And that's when I first started at GlaxoSmithKline or GSK. So there was quite a natural progression, but I never wanted to be in a lab. I'm very clumsy. So lab work was never for me. And I was really lucky that I got a placement year working in kind of supply chain management, really enjoyed it, really loved it, and then naturally progressed into their graduate scheme afterwards. um but the AI pieces kind of came a bit later so supply chains are massive and complex and difficult to understand and I was really lucky that I got placed in kind of an AI product innovation type team although it wasn't called that at the time and I loved it and that's kind of when I started to carve out my career in more of a data science or technical space product space and ultimately what led me to capgemini event in my current role

SPEAKER_01:

so you're in the innovation part of capgemini it's supply chain you're in your late 20s did you ever imagine this is where you would be no

SPEAKER_00:

no um definitely not i think when i first started my career i remember when i first joined gsk i was like completely tied up in the ambition of gsk and the fact that they you know wanted people to do more feel better live longer and i was like i want to be you know vp of whatever in gsk i want to climb the ranks

SPEAKER_01:

you're ambitious from the beginning

SPEAKER_00:

oh super ambitious but I think there was a moment where I thought actually you know I'd had five years at GSK in total I thought it was fantastic and it was a great place to work but there are other domains right like pharmaceuticals is just one thing and that's where for me consulting gave me breadth I could understand I currently work in a big public sector organization and I do work on supply chain but I also work on finance procurement lots of different processes so that definitely gave me the breadth that I wanted And I also think there's been lots of people throughout my career who've said, and yes, I've moved very quickly, I'm not going to pretend I haven't, but take your time and enjoy the horizontal moves rather than just the vertical moves. Because once you get to positions like VP, you're under a lot of pressure and a lot of accountability. And you want to make sure that when you're there, you're ready to be there, but also prepared. you might not want to be there straight away or potentially ever. So I think my perception on what my career looks like is always changing and shifting. And that's okay because the world is completely different now to what it was when I started. It's

SPEAKER_01:

the ambition to be VP that was driving you rather than I want to head up AI and innovation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. My mum was previously a partner in a law firm or had a very classic legal career where she climbed the ladder. You know, she worked in magic circle firms. She did fantastically well. But I think I kind of always saw her in that position rather than necessarily the domain knowledge that she was doing and that was somewhat attractive when I was growing up or a good benchmark to set myself to. So

SPEAKER_01:

your mum was a role model?

SPEAKER_00:

A hundred percent and then I think as you get older you have a very good relationship with my mum right she's fantastic and she's very candid about what that meant for her to get to partner so quickly in her career and the choices that she made and sometimes that meant less time with me and my sisters and less time with family so I think my ambition to be okay let's try and get to VP or whatever has now shifted to be like actually what's important in the context across my life like what are the pillars what are my values because it's not just work right you don't live to work or hopefully you don't you work to live right

SPEAKER_01:

okay lovely we will we will explore that in a bit further shortly but I just want to hang on with where we are about your your career as it stands I get a sense that you really love love what you do

SPEAKER_00:

yes

SPEAKER_01:

because that's the impression you give you and you've always given me that impression what is it then that you really love because you've had quite different jobs

SPEAKER_00:

so I'm a problem solver at heart right so I love when people come to me and they tell me here's all my pain here's all the stuff that keeps me up at night this is what I hate about my job and then I love being able to come in and sift through all those pain points and work out okay actually how can we make this an easier place for this person so whether that be the They have to find loads of difficult, complex information and a whole host of documents. You can use tools like ChatGPT or OpenAI models to help understand like long, complex documentation. Sometimes it's more complicated that, you know, it's right now I work in an organization that has a lot of assets. So it can be all our cars have broken down and they're never ready for us to go and do all of our tests. And then it's actually, okay, how do we build maybe an ML or AI model that can predict when an engine might fail? And then how can we better prepare the business so they're not, you know consistently maybe missing KPIs because their equipment is just not in a fit state so for me it always comes back to you know I want to talk to the grumpy people I want to talk to the people that are annoyed and I want to understand where that pain is coming from and then hopefully design and build them a product that fundamentally makes their lives easier because we all have to work and we need to make sure that we're doing it in the most like optimal way but more from a personal lens necessarily than a money organizational lens.

SPEAKER_01:

So It's making a difference for your clients and seeing the results that you're helping them achieve through helping them solve their problems. That is what's fulfilling for you is what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_00:

I think there's also the element of my career now is a lot of like mentoring, coaching, supporting like my product owners or the technical teams that are in my portfolio be successful. So there's a lot of like individual personal development too that I really enjoy. And that doesn't just happen across like my Capgemini colleagues. You know, we have blended teams of public sector people in our product squads as such. So I think it's also that side of it as well. Like how do you help younger people or people that are more junior to me, not even necessarily younger, hone out their core consulting skills or hone out their problem solving skills and help them be more confident, you know, facilitating workshops and driving conversations with new customers and clients too. So it's a two-sided coin.

SPEAKER_01:

Great. And I get that that's also very fulfilling as well, then helping others grow, develop, blossom, which is the lead side of things. So I've observed your career from afar and you've had a very fast trajectory so far. You've been promoted several times. I remember you talking about leading people who are dealing with very different issues because they're possibly older than you. They may be at different life stages than you and yet you're still leading and managing them. So how have you found that as a young leader?

SPEAKER_00:

Most of the time I've been very lucky and I've never had any or rarely had kind of challenge back, considering I'm in some circumstances younger than individuals I'm managing. But I think when it has been more sticky, the best thing to do is like always try and root yourself in their experience as much as you can. So I work with quite a lot of people who have children, and I don't have children, and they have childcare commitments. So that's maybe a slightly easier, well, I say easier, but it's one that I can relate to in the cousins with young children and it's I think work is a much better place than it used to be around okay yeah you've got to go and do pickup at 4 p.m off you go like absolutely or you know encouraging colleagues to take time back regardless actually of children or not when they've done extra hours is really important to me but there's one particular time that kind of jumps out of my head when I was working at GSK and I was leading a team of developers to develop a new budget setting tool and I had teams globally so I had teams in a So I was working quite crazy hours because I was waking up early to be with my teams in India, checking on how they were doing and then staying on late to check in with my team in the US. And they were all older than me. And I was probably 26. But the thing that I spent time doing was just trying to get to know them as people first, rather than trying to come in and tell them what to do and give them deadlines straight away. Because when you're spending that amount of time with people at work, again, spend at least seven and a half hours of your day at work, right? Right. If you feel like you're doing that with people you don't know, like it doesn't motivate you. And if you don't ask questions and if you're not curious and you don't know about people's circumstance and there's a balance. Right. Because you don't want to pry. But you don't ask questions about how someone's weekend was or like, you know, where they live and what their living situation is. You might not realize that they, you know, they could have caring commitments. They could have young children. They could have, you know, they could have had an accident themselves and be currently have a broken foot. Right. And be slightly immobile. So I think there's a moment where you just have to go. and also be try and be your authentic self ask questions be curious and get to know people on a human level because the reality is we've all had a boss who just tells us down the phone go and do this and then we've all had a boss who's fantastic and who knows you and sees you and then says can you do this so it's better to always like lead I think with that personal touch

SPEAKER_01:

so we've got our own role models is what you're saying

SPEAKER_00:

yeah exactly

SPEAKER_01:

and is that something you feel you've learned or is it something that you've naturally done I

SPEAKER_00:

think I've I've always naturally done it in the sense of I am that classic extrovert like I get my energy from other people I love learning about other people I love learning about their hobbies but what I've learnt to do is and I don't mean this in I'm not saying this in a clever way but there's a way to do it in which you make people feel remembered and you make them feel special which then ultimately helps you as a leader so if you ask somebody you know specifically how's your wife and you can name their wife or if you ask them how their pet corgi called podge is they remember that you remember and that ultimately helps you be like a more approachable and effective leader

SPEAKER_01:

so what I'm hearing then really is what you put at the heart of your leadership is relationship which I think is I mean I'm completely on side with you because my whole book is all about relationships so I'm kind of sitting here really thinking this is fantastic that you're saying all this because it's actually you're a living personification of how relate you know putting the relationship at the heart of your leadership that's what has really made a difference and helped you navigate what could potentially Yeah, and I

SPEAKER_00:

think maybe just one other build on that is it's also important to recognise what role you're playing in a particular relationship with someone at work. So, for example, I, you know, I've been in a relationship with someone at work for a long time. lead a team of about 20 people but I'm part of a leadership team of a broader 50 people in my current my current public sector client setting and as an engagement manager I am responsible for that like the team's outputs right so I am responsible for my 20 person team's outputs and if somebody doesn't deliver something I obviously need to have that conversation with them however we all have challenges in and outside of work and for example if somebody in my team I recognise that they're a bit low energy or they're not their usual self, I might slip into more of like a people coach or people manager type persona. And actually, sometimes you have to draw quite a firm line between that and your delivery. So you know in Capgemini that's the moment when I'd go to their people manager internally who they report to and be like okay I'm worried about this person's well-being I'm a bit worried about their drive like something's happened and making sure that you manage that in the right way is really important to both protect that person's potentially mental health or resilience but also to protect your delivery too and I think that's been quite a hard realisation because if you're working with someone day in day out and you notice a change and maybe they are having a bit of a wobble it's really hard to not default you know I default to a bit of a caregiver or or not to mumsy type capability and actually sometimes you have to recognize that we have people managers for a reason we have things like dedicated mental health and well-being support for a reason you know we have access to an employee assistance program we have access to therapy etc and I think I naturally can sometimes slip into almost a and I'm not a therapist I I'm not I'm not trained as a therapist I find it fascinating and so interesting but I do recognize this because I can slip into that more people manager role

SPEAKER_01:

yeah I'm hearing that part of your leadership is that you can discern and say okay I could I could go down that avenue you're quite conscious as a leader then I could go down that avenue but actually I'm probably not best placed I'm going to support this person by getting the people manager involved yeah that's a good level of awareness you've got there India

SPEAKER_00:

yeah well it's It's not always been there. It's taken time to... cultivate that's

SPEAKER_01:

something that's evolved and that you've learned along the way what I'm also hearing is it's a great example of being clear around your boundaries and also managing that very tenuous balance between supporting people making sure they're all okay and then also getting the job done because you're there to get a job done yeah you can't do it unless your people are at their best but you you're you're treading that fine line is what I'm hearing

SPEAKER_00:

yeah yeah 100%

SPEAKER_01:

how have you coped with the pressures of such Yeah. Therapy. I think

SPEAKER_00:

there's a blend of ways to deal with pressure, I think. So finding mentors, and I'm saying finding as a key word here, with will completely unlock your experiences your opportunities but also your resilience so that that project I mentioned at GSK there was a wonderful amazing woman called Risner who put me forward for it and she said I think well I'm confident you can smash this India and I'm gonna but I'm gonna be there I'm gonna help mentor you along the way and I'm gonna make sure that you are a success at this and you've got this and that was so stressful that role and she just picked up the phone whenever I needed a chat and coached me through it and imparted all her amazing knowledge and all the rest of it I think as well there's a there's a moment where recognizing when you're going 110 percent and recognizing that you cannot go 110 percent all the time so a different experience the last year I was working very very hard on my client and loving it to be clear absolutely loving it but you know my personal life was taken an impact because I was working longer hours I didn't have as much mental capacity so for example you know I wasn't dating I wasn't socializing nearly as much and I was putting most of my energy and my eggs into my work and ultimately I got promoted at the end of the year and that happened kind of it well it was organic right because my my boss turned around to me mid last year and said you'd be silly not to go for promotion you're doing fantastically but then this year I started the year and I thought I can't work like that again for another year I can't go 110%. I need to drop back down to a nice 80, 20 space. And that's really hard because you work, you're excelling, you're kind of running on a bit of adrenaline. You know, you're getting lots of kudos. People are telling you you're doing really well. It's fantastic. You're also actually probably batting away a lot of imposter syndrome because when you're in this fight and flight mode, you know, the rubbishy voices in your head can sometimes get a bit louder. And then when you take a moment to pause and stop, It can really quickly feel like you're not doing enough or all the requests that come in and people asking for help, you just feel like you're saying no to everything. You have to sit in that sometimes and you have to really protect. My motto this year has been protect your peace or protect my peace. So I've been saying no a lot to things and recognising that This is not a year that I want to go 110% at work. I want to carve out time for my friends, for my family. I want a bit more balance because otherwise this is why people work in the city and go crazy and they burn out. And I don't ever want to be in that position. So

SPEAKER_01:

what I'm hearing is you've started to kind of start to work much more on your own terms rather than being on this. We almost get on, I can totally get what you're describing. You almost get on the treadmill and start running. Yeah. others and not so much to ourselves first tell me how do you go about saying no well you must be doing it well if you've been if you found you slowed down this year so

SPEAKER_00:

I think I think there are some tactical ways to say no which doesn't look exactly like you're the one saying no so sometimes this year I've escalated up the chain when I've had like five things come to me right I'm like five things all apparently need my time and these are all amazing opportunities and I just kind of say like look there's five things here I have capacity to do one like more senior people like which one is your priority and then that makes it a bit easier to say no to the other things because you have a really clear argument of I've escalated to my seniors the business decision is this is the one thing I really need to nail I'm sorry I can't support these other things and then I think in a slightly different tangent in we get a lot of demand in my current client from new people asking for for AI tools and AI products. And I think the way that I would say no there is usually showing them quite subtly that actually the idea that they have is is probably not viable or not feasible or or bring it back to the data right so if i've got four new people reach out to me for four new ai products and of those four and three have terrible data i just quite lightly say okay i'm concerned about the data quality here or like if it's a process they want to improve but they actually don't have any control over the process highlighting that okay we could build the coolest sexiest tool in the world but you're just telling me that you can't you can't have any impact on the process in which it would serve it so it will never be used so there's I try and pull levers that don't make it about me saying no it's more about showing why unfortunately that particular idea or requirement just doesn't fit in my priority list either from like a strategic standpoint or otherwise because also you never want to be the bad guy you never want to be the person whose reputation is oh India she just says no It's she listens, she understands my requirement, but she highlighted a few things that aren't really going to work or she highlighted why she's going to be picking up something else because it's a higher priority based on X, Y, Z. So I think, again, it comes back to talk to people, again, understand where their pain is coming from, why they want help. And sometimes as well, you can ferry them to others, right? Like I've got a great team who can talk about, sometimes it's talking about the work that we've delivered in our public sector organisation or client. We can talk about that to them someone else can pick it up it doesn't have to always be me

SPEAKER_01:

yeah so knowing where you can delegate as well then as well sounds really fabulous so you started our conversation off by saying I want to get to VP that was kind of your ambition has your ambition you know having taken this time this year to slow down and sort of rebalance your life as it were what does success mean to you now

SPEAKER_00:

that's a great question success Success means to me, ultimately, that I feel happy, healthy, stretched, and kind of like balanced. So success for me is doing well at work in something that I enjoy. And yes, progressing, but I've taken away the label of, oh, I want to be a VP, or, oh, I want to be, you know, I used to be like, I want to be a director by the time I'm 30. Yeah. And I've taken that pressure off myself because I don't actually think it's helpful because if you look across jobs, right, titles mean nothing. When you look in the job market, you have to take it all with such a pinch of salt. And I think success for me is like, so I spoke a bit about my mum and I don't want to, you know, take her words and like necessarily share them fully here. But she has reflected that she, you know, she made choices, which meant that she was less around when we were children. And I am so grateful because she was an amazing mum. She is an amazing mum. She was such an inspiration growing up. I'm in awe of her. every day, like she's still smashing it. God, I feel emotional. But I think there's a moment where I want to pretend that you can go and be these top, top people and have a great work-life balance. I'm not sure we're there yet still, regardless of gender, right? Men or women. And I don't think I want my life to be all work all the time so success is making sure I have quality time with friends and family making sure I have time to go and exercise making sure that I have time to like cook a really nice dinner that I like really just fancy getting in the kitchen because that's how I unwind so my parameters around success and moving away from actually organizational levels let's say and I'd like to think becoming more holistic so that doesn't mean that I won't still hopefully climb a bit but I'm not I'm not gun-focused on it like I was.

SPEAKER_01:

I get the sense of being much more holistic. It's interesting because a previous episode, what we talked about in terms of what the sort of leaders we need in the world, as in the state of the world as it is now, and it is leaders who are more holistic and see the world through a more holistic lens. So we touched there about, you mentioned gender. So let's move on to talking about that because I'm also curious, you are a young woman. And again, I can think of many women I've coached who haven't been necessarily young but they'll get called young like you're very young to be a leader because they look young because they're a woman but my question is What are some of the biases you've had to navigate? And were you conscious of them at the time or is it on reflection? Because I think that's the challenge, isn't it? We're often not conscious that someone is acting in a biased way. But tell us a bit about some of the experiences you've had and how you navigated them.

SPEAKER_00:

So when I moved to, you mentioned earlier, I moved to Aberdeen. I was actually working in a manufacturing site in a place called Montrose. And I think there was a lot, you know, I was the youngest person in the office. I think there was some, you know, and, you know, I was on the, you know, inverted commas future leaders program, you know, that didn't probably land very well among some of my colleagues who'd worked on the site for a long time and had a lot more experience than I did. But that was also very formative because before that moment, I don't think I'd ever thought that there was still a gender gap, quite naively, to be honest, because, you know, I did biochemistry at uni, but my class was very gender balanced. My year in industry at GSK, it was very gender balance like the head of my team at this point in time was a woman but in Montrose you know the manufacturing site I was working in not all the buildings had female loos but all the buildings had male loos because historically shift workers were male and we had some female shift workers coming through and it's a really small thing but if you're in the middle of a night shift and you have to walk like 10 minutes to the next building or 15 minutes to the next building to go to the loo because you're a woman It just seems crazy because I was like, it must have been like 2018, 2017. So I think I started to definitely see some of those gaps there. And then I think as well, just if you look at, I work in a big firm, which is fantastic. And we have very good gender balance across our lower grades, possibly up to manager, senior manager. And this is in the gender reports, right? It's not as strong at director, senior director, VP. it's getting better, but it's not. So it's still there and we have to just keep, we have to keep pushing, right? Like we have to keep going. But I think I've been relatively lucky that I've never felt like my gender has imposed me or stopped me in my career, but I do think it's made me more aware. So maybe on a slightly different tangent, you know, so public sector organization i work in now is quite male dominated and there's been quite a few times where i've been in the room presenting to quite a male dominated audience and that has made me go oh okay cool this is different but what that's then informed is okay i'm woman but i'm a white woman like how does it feel if you're a black woman or how does it feel if you know there's so much diversity out there and i think that's also what I really want to also try and help drive because when you start to look at the intersectionality so the UK is a massively multicultural massively diverse part of the world but yet all of our bank holidays are focused around like the Christian calendar like it's really interesting when you start to unpick it like should that be right like should we be should we be making sure that we have bank holidays for Eid for example or other religious holidays so I'm sorry, Mary, I don't really think I'm answering your question. But for me, it's like there's still work to do on the gender gap. But actually, there's a lot more work to do more broadly across all types over. I

SPEAKER_01:

think what I'm hearing is you have experienced gender bias. I also hear you've not necessarily been triggered or hooked by it. You've kind of just got on with things. But I also get your commitment. It's not just about gender. It's about diversity as a whole. And I think you're right, because the McKinsey report talks about two steps forward one step back when it comes to gender equity but if you're a woman of colour it's even more challenging they have you know you you will be experiencing an even harder time so diversity as a whole absolutely needs our attention what therefore do you think inclusive leadership is for you for

SPEAKER_00:

me it's actually small changes and small actions so when you senior people or senior leaders think about the language they use it's about saying you know partner rather than wife husband girlfriend boyfriend it's about asking questions it's about recognizing different lifestyles and different values and and how people prioritize them so I think we've fallen into a bit of a moment where sometimes it's really on those diverse pockets to, you know, they feel like they have to like educate people the senior leaders or or they have to I think they must sometimes feel like they're under a spotlight right so having to share their experiences all the time but actually so much of inclusive leadership for me should just happen organically through and this boils down to this is my personal leadership style right like I want to know the people that I work with I want to know their own personal level I want to know what makes them tick I want to know what they get up to like in an evening because I don't want to just get on a call every day and be like have you done the work what's going on like I want that that that connection so for me it's like small things like that and occasionally it is having the uncomfortable conversations right so when there was the what it means to be a woman debate in parliament recently you know that was really disappointing and like as a member of the LGBTQ plus community you know I'm a bisexual woman I have non-binary friends and others and I just think it was a big step back for like the trans community and how we recognise women so therefore inclusive leadership for me is sometimes just saying saying exactly that like i was disappointed by this decision and i actually i said that recently in a all-hands calling cap gemini so it's small actions i think rather than necessarily big bold things especially if you're not part of that that community but obviously the only way we're going to get people part of that community is also helping others from a whole range of diverse backgrounds up the chain as you like and giving them a platform and a space and a voice you can't expect them to do all the educating like you have to show curiosity and willingness to learn really

SPEAKER_01:

I hear that then what you're saying then is do what you can yeah and in small steps Influence where you can. Challenge if it seems appropriate, but also keep working on yourself is what I'm hearing. It comes back to how you manage yourself and how you build those relationships with people. I'm not hearing any blame or criticism, you know, which is very encouraging to hear that there isn't any of that. It's just about educating and influencing where you can.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Great. Okay. So let's just now then look, because you are a young leader and you uh probably work with older leaders what do you wish more senior leaders understood about your generation um

SPEAKER_00:

i think there's fundamentally some changes this isn't new news people in my generation or even generations younger than me we're not one company for lifers like that's just not how the world works anymore but i do think there's a balance right because how do we try and retain the best talent but by giving them the right opportunities and continuing to grow them you know we don't want to stagnate them but also recognizing at some point there's a moment there that they will probably jump off and move on and I don't think we've really worked out how we do that in a good way I also think there's some stuff around so I work in the service industry now historically I was just saying for my mum right historically lots of the the perks were going out for client dinners and having like, I don't want to say parties, but like, you know, pre-COVID and also in like, you know, my mum's working life, there was a lot more like work socialising. And I would say that actually my generation and particularly the generations below my generation still probably happens but the ones below they're less interested in it like they don't care about you putting on a thing at the pub and everyone getting together and playing darts they want to come in they want to do their hours and they want to go home so actually how do we make sure that we because and and that is absolutely fine but creating connection with people and creating community is actually really hard sometimes when when you're um when you don't have that And it shouldn't always be in a pub, like it shouldn't always be in an alcohol setting. But when you can't get people together for those like informal non-work type catch-ups, that becomes challenging. So there's definitely some pieces there about how we engage with the younger generations, recognising that they don't tend to drink as much, they're not as into pub culture as the millennials were or are, that we need to have a think about. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

So looking at the trends of those particular generations organizations and and finding some way of connecting in those ways and and that reminds me of hybrid working then as well because I think that also presents challenges for how you keep keeping your culture as an organization alive and keep people connected that way have you got any thoughts on that

SPEAKER_00:

well so for me it's about getting people together in a room occasionally and and I don't so we did something um earlier this year we ran a leadership training workshop for everyone on our program and that was across of the public sector, organisations, people and our people. So it was like 60, 70 people in a room and it was all about deciding what we wanted the identity of our team to be and what we wanted to be known for and coming up with some, you know, coming up with like a cultural, like almost like a bit, right? Like when people talk about our team, what's the catchphrase that wants to come with it? And that was fantastic because that was a way to get people together, bonding, it was all around being uncomfortable and sharing beyond work with people so I loved it because I was like let's all get to know each other personally so there's definitely things like that but I also think we have to be conscious that we because of COVID we now have you know lots of people who flexible working for them will always be five days a week at home and that's okay because they might have childcare commitments or caring commitments or they might just like it like I work with a lot of very great technical people who love to be in their little zone at home and it's quiet and we need to think harder about how we include those people because we're not going to get them coming into the office two days a week and that is okay. But I don't know exactly what the solution is right now. But equally, I don't need to have the solution because there are lots of fantastic people that will have lots of great ideas. So it might just be informal coffee drop-in sessions every Tuesday and Thursday, like for 15 minutes, pop in if you want to. Or it might just be that you make sure that they have a really good people manager who knows them really well and you're confident that if there was any flight risk or frustrations or you know they didn't feel part of the community or team they would raise it through them and then you can kind of take action and fold them in in a different way but

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's one of those ongoing things isn't it and again it's I should imagine it's about getting the balance right okay so if someone was listening to this conversation I hope we have got someone listening to this conversation who's in their 20s and wondering whether they have what it takes, what would be one thing you would want them to hear from you?

SPEAKER_00:

So you do have what it takes is the first thing that you have to, you have what it takes to do something you're passionate about. I have what it takes to be really good in AI product innovation and also to be a really good people manager and things like that because I care. I don't have what it takes to be a champion kite surfer and that's okay. So like, Be honest with yourself about, I find it's really useful to reflect on what your values, what makes you tick, like what do you enjoy? like as i said at the beginning for me it's like problem solving working with people collaborating that's why i think i've done well in my career

SPEAKER_01:

because those are your values as well i hear

SPEAKER_00:

because those are my values exactly so if you listen to your values and and and also i would air this with a tiny pinch of salt that says because i'm recognized there might be some people going oh i love you know when i was growing up i loved performing and for a long time i wanted to go and do like musical theater and then i realized i could go and do this but i would then end up hating the thing that I love because it will be my job so there's also a tiny pinch of salt in that do you have what it takes as something that you're passionate about but just think about do you want that to be your know if you love haberdashery do you want that to be your full-time job i don't know yes it might be it might not be so yeah that would be my advice what are you passionate about

SPEAKER_01:

yeah i think i'm what i'm hearing really strong start with your values when we live a life that's aligned with our values life just works so much easier and we're so much happier

SPEAKER_02:

agreed

SPEAKER_01:

so we're coming to the close of our conversation this has been it's been a really interesting conversation with some wonderful insights i'd like to invite you though for for our sort of final piece to just share with us one thing that you'd love our listeners to, especially our women leader listeners, to take away from your journey so far.

SPEAKER_00:

You are never alone in something. So if you're in a role and it's really crunchy and it's really hard, don't be afraid to go and find a mentor or like lean on someone in your network for support. And in the same vein, like to what I said earlier, you don't have to say yes to everything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Like you really don't.

SPEAKER_01:

So the world is not going to end if you say no. No,

SPEAKER_00:

exactly. Exactly. And I think as well, like, I remember when I worked at GSK, I'd get very stressed about my tasks sometimes. I remember my boss once told me, he said, if you don't do this today, will someone die? And it was like, no, no, they won't. So it can wait until Monday or it can wait a week or it can wait to another deadline. So you have to, set your own boundaries you can either be horrible to yourself or you can be kind to yourself and i really hope that you are kind to yourself because the only person that puts the most pressure on you and expects the most of you is you

SPEAKER_01:

so self-compassion coming through and that so you've given us lots and lots of things there to take away no no that's no bonus all bonuses thank you india that's been fantastic so really the whole thing is

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

seek the support i i hear you were proactive in getting mental so seek the support yeah Say no, self-compassion. There's three things that people can take away that will make a difference. India, thank you so much. It's been a real joy speaking with you today. Thanks,

SPEAKER_00:

Mary. Always delighted to see your smiling face.

SPEAKER_01:

And you too. And I'll see you again soon, I hope.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation. So let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.

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Mary Gregory

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