She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women

Episode 13 - Emotions at Work: Reclaiming What We've Been Told to Hide with Steph Tranter

• Mary Gregory • Season 1 • Episode 13

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What if the very thing we’ve been told to leave at the door—our emotions—is actually the most powerful leadership tool we have?

In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, I’m joined by executive coach, facilitator, and author Steph Tranter. Together, we explore why emotions are still treated as “undiscussable” in many organisations, what happens when they’re ignored, and how leaders can create cultures where people feel safe to bring their whole selves—feelings and all.

Steph shares her journey from the checkouts at Tesco to coaching Olympic teams, her passion for helping leaders build resilience and emotional intelligence, and why understanding our emotions is essential not only for wellbeing but for performance.

If you’ve ever been told you’re “too emotional” or trained yourself to stay stoic, this conversation offers a powerful reframe: emotions are data, wisdom, and energy that can transform the way we lead.

Connect with Steph on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephtranter/

Or visit her website - https://www.stephtranter.com

If you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. And the question we're going to explore today is, what if the very thing we've been told to leave at the door, our emotions, is actually the most powerful leadership tool we have? It's a question I've certainly found myself coming back to time and again through my work and through the organisations I've worked with. But we still tend to see emotions as being dismissed as unprofessional, inappropriate. I've even heard them referred to as dangerous, especially when women express them. So Just think about the recent episode with Rachel Reeves who showed emotions in Parliament recently. There was an immediate and enormous backlash. And yet some of the biggest problems we face in the workplace and in our society stem from emotions being ignored, suppressed or misunderstood. Well, my guest today is someone who's been doing important work in this space, Steph Tranter. Steph is an executive coach, facilitator, leadership consultant and author of Leap, how to be more you and find a career you love. Like me, Steph spent time in leadership development at Tesco, which is where we first met, and I've long admired her voice, her depth and the values that come through so clearly in the way she works. So I'm excited to speak with Steph today. She brings with her something quite special, a blend of coaching, therapy and physiology, helping senior leaders build emotional intelligence, resilience and lead with authenticity. Some of Steph's work is especially with women leaders, helping them navigate complexity and change. And she's absolutely passionate about helping us all work with emotions rather than against them. So in today's conversation, I hope that we're going to be exploring why emotions are still seen as an undiscussable in many organisations. What happens when they're actually ignored? and what it takes to create a culture where people feel safe to bring their full selves, feelings and all. Whether you've been criticised for being too emotional or trained yourself to stay stoic no matter what, I'm hoping that what we discuss in this episode will help you create a powerful reframe. So now, without further ado, let's pass to Steph and say hello. Hello and welcome, Steph.

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, Mary. Thank you for having me here. What a very lovely introduction, very generous introduction. Thank you very much. I'm so glad you're here and I've

SPEAKER_01:

you know since we worked together at Tesco's I followed your work I still follow you I was loved it when you brought your book out and it was actually observing your work and the work you do with women around emotions that caused me to invite you here today so let's start off by just finding out a bit about you and what motivates you so I'd love to hear a bit more about your story and then also what has drawn you to work at such depth with emotions

SPEAKER_00:

yeah well yeah thanks again for having me along so um I've been running my business now probably as long I think we're probably had a really similar journey haven't we I've been running my business now for about 14 years so it's 14 years yeah this year this May just gone and as you said I've been an executive coach mainly doing one-to-one coaching with CEOs and their leadership teams but as you said also doing quite a lot of work with women in leadership you do a lot of team development that comes out of the one-to-one but also I've got really passionate about leadership development or any development for for women and I've been really really lucky to have worked across pretty much every sector now, Mary, actually. It's been such a joy to be able to have worked in every sector, whether it's the NHS, the police, or charities like the Alzheimer's Society, to big global names like WeWork and Harrods and Carlsberg, so a real range, and I guess one of the things it's so funny having known each other at tesco and i'll tell you a bit i'll just tell you a bit more about the background there in a sec but um you know i keep i've had the real good fortune to work with some olympic and paralympic teams and i think back to little old me and tesco on the checkouts like 20 odd years ago and i would never have imagined that's where i'd be now so I'm really proud of the journey, but also just a real privilege to have worked in all these different organisations, doing the stuff that I care about most. And I suppose to answer your question in terms of sort of what do I care about and how did I get here? I suppose my journey started at Tesco on the checkouts, my career journey, you know, everything else before that. I wasn't really passionate about retail or corporate world or anything like that. I didn't really know who I was or what I was about. You know, I did an art degree. I loved studying. carried on and did a master's would have been a perpetual student you know if if I could have afforded to but we get caught into the sort of sensible life and we have to earn money so turned my Saturday job at Tesco on the checkouts into a full-time job and then just worked up through the ranks really in Tesco up through the stores

SPEAKER_01:

quite an alternative career trajectory you know you think as a career trajectory having studied art at university work at Tesco in head office and go into leadership development

SPEAKER_00:

there's no connection there's no link at all I'm quite I've got quite a few interests I think you know and I think yeah I just passionate love the visual arts love all of the creativity and actually it seeps into my work in my book you'll have seen how visual my book is you know and I very much in that kind of vein really visual really sensitive actually which kind of brings us back to probably why I do what I do why I work the way I do and why I help the people in the areas that I help them in because I am a very emotional person I'm a very sensitive person so all of that art stuff you know and all the creativity that's kind of that comes out in me so me in the corporate world whilst we got on in some ways we didn't get on in other ways

SPEAKER_01:

i was gonna say because the culture at tesco i've was you know i talk about it in the second episode when i share my own story i found the culture at tesco very challenging because i take a much more sensitive emotional approach to things how did you find that

SPEAKER_00:

same really i mean i've got kind of a bit of split personality so i am someone who's quite i don't know if the word ambitious but i like to get stuff done i'm quite I don't know if the word's assertive, but I'm quite strong-willed. I know what I want. I know what I want to do, or I do now. I didn't. I did quite like the organisation at Tesco. I like what it taught me for all its sins.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I thought the offer that they had around leadership development and how they engaged leaders in starting to build self-awareness around themselves and others was really powerful, actually. Their programmes were very powerful.

SPEAKER_00:

It was ahead of its game when it comes to personal development, leadership development. So what a privilege it was to grow up in a kind of organisation like that. I did I didn't feel it at the time, I must admit, because it was high pressure. But looking back, what a privilege. You know, I went through, I got really interested, realised I wasn't really that interested in the operations, but I was really interested in people. So went down the HR route, became a personnel manager, well, became a training manager, then an HR manager. Realised I didn't really like dealing with people's major problems. You know, there's a lot of playground problems in HR, a lot of things I didn't really like. But what I did like was development. So I suppose I navigated my career and was really fortunate to end up in the Group Leadership Academy, which is probably where you and i met that's probably where i learned my trade um really and and gave me a really good feeling for for you know best practice leadership to work globally you know globe very many different industries whether you're in the shop floor whether you're in insurance you know whether you're you know a real mix um of things so so i suppose that's kind of my journey but what's led me then to to kind of i suppose leap hence my previous book you know into freelance life i suppose was i just knew that corporate life was killing me actually and emotionally physically I am a really emotional person why I got interested in emotions was I needed to understand what was going on in me you know quite sad you know elements of depression you know you kind of I knew I was really really emotional but I was like there's got to be this has got to be a gift as well there's something good in this as well but it was getting in my way I was like what you know this is really because I was I was really quite poorly when I left Tesco and one of the reasons I went self-employed was to get myself well again and also work in a way that works for me and all of that stuff so journey into this really the two key areas for me are very much about building kind of self-belief, self-confidence, doing what you love, knowing who you are and really focusing in on who you are and finding ways to live life that's aligned to who you are. But equally, understanding this thing called emotions, you know, and they're part of us as human beings. They are always in us and they're not something to be afraid to enter into. They are our survival mechanism, actually. How do we understand that and utilise that rather than let it kind of control us?

SPEAKER_01:

They're a great gift, aren't they, our emotions? Because they actually do give us information. And that's why I think it's so important that leaders, not just leaders, everyone should develop awareness around their emotions because that helps us understand ourselves and what our needs are. Our emotions inform us about what we need. But I love what you share about being this sensitive, emotional person in a big corporation like Tesco's and how challenging that was. And so you had to free yourself from that to get yourself well again and get your needs met is what I'm hearing. But let's just talk a bit more about the bigger picture of organisations. And we don't just want to focus on Tesco. This is organisations generally. And I mean, I've had organisations who don't even allow you to use the word feelings, you know, and I've put a proposal or put a training or a programme together. They said, oh, you've mentioned emotions and feelings here. That's not part of how we do things around here. And we've had to find another way, another languaging to actually even address that, which I find quite shocking. Now, that's not all all There are other organisations that absolutely are committed to let's get us talking more about our feelings. So there is an increased awareness. But I'm just wondering, what do you think, from your perspective, is behind the whole thing around emotions being an undiscussable?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I've never come across that. So that's quite extreme, right? Don't use the word. But I think there's several things to answer your question. But I think language is one of the things, right? I think we're really illiterate when it comes to emotion. We've never been, because we're so afraid of them, we've never been taught that. I think they're better now in school. But you think about it, this is something that is fundamental to our human existence. And yet it's not on the syllabus at school. So how are we ever going to understand and accept that it's okay that they're there and they're there for a reason and they are there to help us survive. So I think what happens in organisations is an extension of almost what happens to us when we're kids and when we're growing up. The cultures, the environments that, you know, our parents or our primary caregivers us or the people who teach us at school they're just giving us the best of what they know but someone somewhere hasn't uh enabled them to understand you know emotions and and how they show up in us and what they actually are we get caught up in these labels and what i mean by that is you know you couldn't use the word feelings or emotions but we're quite happy to use the word stress and it really bugs the living i could swear it could it bugs it out of me you know absolutely hate it because we use the word stress as a catch-all for all emotions so someone might be feeling angry and they go I'm stressed someone might be feeling anxious and they say I'm feeling stressed someone might be feeling a whole load of emotions you know guilt anger shame jealousy you know all of these emotions they're so overwhelmed by it and they use the word stress and the problem with that is is that it's just it's really unhelpful because if we call all of all emotions have different reasons for showing up and calling everything stress because we don't want to use those words because to say I've often said this to clients that you seem really angry oh I wouldn't say angry I'd say make more bit annoyed you know It's like I have to dampen it down. And the problem is, is you're not giving yourself the best chance to really manage that emotion, listen to the message, deal with it, understand how to process it because it's a blanket stress. So I might have slightly gone off your question, but I think there's something about the words we use, the labels we use, what's acceptable, what isn't acceptable.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, what I hear is it's more than just an organisational issue. It is a societal issue, very linked to how we bring our children up, very linked to how we educate our children. And of course, as parents, we will tend to parent, unless we've done the work ourselves to shift some of our limiting beliefs, we will tend to parent as our parents brought us up. So the whole thing about opening up that conversation around emotions and creating a vocabulary, that's what I hear is so, so important. I know some of the programmes I run we actually it seems really basic but we actually get out well what different ways are there to say I'm angry you know because there are different there's different levels of granularity to anger there is mild irritation there's incandescent with rage there's all these different words that we can use and we're not you're right we're not very skilled at being able to identify those

SPEAKER_00:

and if you think about you kind of go yes it's a society issue if you're in a leadership position you mentioned Rachel Reeves earlier and if you're in a leadership position then if you haven't done the work you talked about you know as parents if unless we've done the work on ourselves we're just we're going to teach our kids in you know weird relationships with emotions or not helpful emotions uh relationships with emotions but equally with leaders it's going to be how they treat themselves and how they treat others and so and the ripple effect of a senior leader who hasn't done the work on themselves around emotions and how to manage themselves because if they don't feel safe if they feel under threat if they don't even realize how they're feeling They are constantly not only communicating to themselves and their bodies, but inadvertently communicating to others. So you know those times where you walk in a room and you can feel what's going on in the room. You know, our nervous systems regulate each other. So we're syncing with each other. So if you're in a leadership position, a very senior one, the ripple effect that you are having on other people because you haven't done the work on yourself, it's like immense. And just the Rachel Reeves point, I actually think one of the things, one of the problems around this sort of undisguised thing is but I wonder if that kind of we have to suppress our emotions we can't show them we need to feel we need to kind of get them out but we can't show them and then they pop up at times where we literally cannot control them anymore you know and then places where we don't want them to and I said what happened with Rachel she's going through all these stuff we don't know what it is probably been you know suppressing suppressing suppressing suppressing all of a sudden live on television in front of the whole nation watching you know it it pops out

SPEAKER_01:

bursts out yes absolutely and you know what there is something something about as a woman, she cried and that isn't acceptable and the press goes to town on that. But you often see men expressing anger. You know, I can think of leaders who've thumped the desk and things like that to get their point across. And yet that's not a big deal. That's OK. It's the softer, more vulnerable emotions that seem to be the ones that people are less comfortable

SPEAKER_00:

with. Yeah, and it's a funny thing, the gender thing. I mean, I think that there's an argument around, you know, how more difficult it is for women than men, but equally, if men want to cry, you know, how difficult it is for them. Yeah, probably even more difficult, I think. Absolutely. If a woman gets angry, you know, she's, you know, she's called a witch or something. Do you know what I mean? There's stereotypes of what's allowed. So anger is almost an allowable emotion because it's a powerful emotion. When we feel angry, we feel quite powerful and it's quite, yeah, a strong emotion. Whereas when we cry, we feel sad or we feel worried or we feel afraid. We actually feel weak. So often people say, I don't don't want to come across as weak, you know, but you feel weak. And actually, as human beings, you don't, you look at the evolutionary reason why we have emotions, it's to help us survive, whether that's to run away from threats, whether that's to not be rejected by the group, you know, all kinds of things. And so if we feel weak, we're going to be feeling like we're the weakest part of the group. So we don't want to show that the group might reject us, which will fundamentally affect our survival. So it's almost understanding that you might feel like you're being showing people you're weak, but that's because you're feeling it but it's okay you know it's not going to last forever and it's a it's telling you something you know it's almost a science around these again i think the labels the language the association with that language you know around these emotions just doesn't help us because we've assumptions and beliefs and judgments what are basically biological processes

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's actually just part of being human, isn't it? Because I can think of one leader who I worked with. I didn't coach her, but I worked with her. And her whole thing was, I don't do emotions. And I used to think, oh my goodness, that to me is classic. Because when someone says that, it's like, well, you can be sure your emotions will be doing you. And she was renowned for having outbursts and all sorts of things and was very difficult to work with as a result. And you're talking about the ripple effect. There was a massive ripple effect around that. And I can also think of a particular team where the emotions just were never expressed. It was always undercurrents and there was absolutely zero trust on that team. It did not feel safe. So these are some of the costs of not getting in touch with our emotions. I wonder if you've got examples of where you've experienced emotions not being addressed and the impact that that has on the teams or the individuals that you're working with.

SPEAKER_00:

There's so many. Many, many. Where do you pick out? I do think there's, I keep thinking of, there's a woman leader, so appropriate to kind of your audience. There's a woman leader, director in an engineering kind of role. And she's super, she's super self-aware, like amazingly self-aware and done a lot of work on herself. But, and yet you can still, you know, my point around earlier that there's stuff that goes on in us now that was educated into us, I suppose, with our relationship when we were kids. And this is what I see quite often. So not only in this woman, but also in this program that I run, a women's development program. But this lady, you know, she grew up in a very male environment and it was on a farm and her father prioritized her brothers into kind of, you know, you're a girl, you don't go into farming, you go and do, you know, and she's so, she had all of those issues. But, and so there's a bit of anger there from how she was being treated. But also she experienced a household that was very emotional. So her mother was very, like lots of emotions and of being expressed that. And so she's lived her whole life going, I don't want my emotions to rule me. So she's got this relationship with her emotions. Whenever she's got them, she's again fighting them. And I think you see this all the time, the relationship we start, and she's one of the most self-aware people, but she was still kind of had this underlying anger that just seeped out in situations that either reminded her of her father, you know, discriminating against women, or whether like she was starting to get, her as a leader, brilliant, brilliant leader, but But when she was starting to get emotional, she would push it down because she was like, I don't want to be like my mother. I don't want my emotions to rule me. And so, you know, I think there's something in, I know you talked about teams, but there's something just even as you as a leader, understanding what's brought you to the point where you're getting triggered. What are your triggers? And what's your relationship with emotions? And she was quite good to lean into that and understand that and understanding that she needed to manage some of that. But yeah, so that was really affecting how she was interacting interacting with some of the men at work or some of the other women at work and the stories she was telling herself around. So I think it can affect you very individually. And that relationship with emotions, you see it on this wonderful program with these women who have had different experiences. Again, it's growing up experiences with emotions and discomfort with even showing, you know, I don't want to cry. I'm doing my best not to cry. Or I think it's this core relationship we have with emotions that fundamentally stop us really showing who we are and what's truly going on for us. You talked about trust and not feeling safe. There are countless examples with CEOs, with senior leaders who just aren't. We talk about psychological safety. I actually don't like that word. I actually think because that's just about a mental thing. But actually, it's about feeling safe, not thinking safe. I would call it emotional safety. And I think if we as leaders or, you know, if people as leaders don't feel safe, and you talk about that director, you know, she did didn't feel safe. So she's emulating, she's emitting all these emotions. I don't feel safe. Other people are like, well, I don't feel safe. So, you know, actually, and in the room, you know, people say, you know, be kind because you don't know what people are going through. You don't know what stories people are carrying with them or the relationships they've got with things. And so we're constantly communicating this feeling of safety or not feeling safe. And I think it fundamentally affects everything.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's really, really helpful. And I think absolutely it starts with the individual and then it's like becoming aware and learning about your emotions. And I always think it's about finding that balance. So I loved how you described that that leader, she didn't want her emotions to take over. So that's part of why becoming more aware of our emotions and aware of our triggers, particularly, and then how to manage our reactions to those triggers helps us keep our emotions, you know, our emotions are always always valid. But we don't always think they are. I

SPEAKER_00:

think that's a really good point. We always think, why am I feeling like this? I shouldn't be feeling like this. It doesn't matter whether you think you should, whether you shouldn't, whether it's warranted or not. You're

SPEAKER_01:

feeling it. That's the thing. Yeah. And you know what? I always work with the fact it's part of that, you know, because I try and get into, let's have adult conversations, particularly when we're having difficult conversations. Well, what you're feeling is part of the data. So I'm starting to feel upset. I'm starting to feel angry in this conversation. That is just data it's you know and it's and it is valid and it's telling you that you need something that's the thing it's for me emotions are a fantastic temperature gauge which really tell us what that we need something

SPEAKER_00:

but i but i also understand so absolutely that kind of it's messages it's data it's stuff to listen to it's a very rational way of thinking about it when it's great when you're not feeling an emotion you can go yes i guess but when you're in the absolute throes of wanting to punch someone's lights out or whether you're absolutely terrified about what you're trying to do you can't suddenly go oh that's just data stuff that's

SPEAKER_01:

all you know we try i totally get it because it's like in neuroscience they talk about the red mist don't they coming down and when you when that when you experience the red mist don't even try to have the conversation let it pass before you have

SPEAKER_00:

the conversation wonderful science mary just to kind of slide this in because actually it was a real learning point for me right this science and it's it's quite broadly known and it's described in different ways but very simply put so you again you talk about neuroscience in the brain and you'll know this right but you know our emotions get processed through our limbic system very simply through our limbic system that's a part in our brain it's all connect all of our body is connected to everything but if we just simply look at the limbic system that's where emotions are processed and it reacts to everything it's the bit that keeps us safe our prefrontal cortex is the bit that makes us helps us think rationally put things in perspective makes decisions helps us think clearly when we feel any sort of emotion and even if we're suppressing it ignoring it pretending it's not there The limbic system will be activated and it will be physically stopping your prefrontal cortex from working. So before it is overtaking your entire system, you therefore can't think straight. So those nine, that red mist, those times where you can't think straight, that times when you just can't focus, you just can't make sense of anything. Physically, your prefrontal cortex is not working. And that's the science behind why, you know, when people kind of say, you know, you've got to think differently, reframe it, you know, think differently in the moment you can't you have to manage your physiology in that time you have to then manage the body the nervous system all of that stuff to calm your system down find ways to release the energy of the emotion because you need to get your prefrontal cortex back in the game and you won't do that unless you process the energy the emotion the physiology you know all of that sort of stuff i felt you can tell i feel strongly about that because

SPEAKER_01:

I can absolutely tell you feel strongly about it. But also what you've shared there is also a reason for why it's so important that organisations support and develop the people they want to lead the organisation to be able to become aware and manage their emotions effectively. Organisations and businesses spend a fortune on recruiting really good talent. And yet, if the leader can't manage their emotions, that will be having an impact. And you don't want a team of people wandering around trying to manage to get their pre-cortex working because they've been emotionally triggered by something the leader's done or said or behaved in a certain way that's why the whole argument for emotional regulation and emotional awareness is so so strong because it absolutely impacts performance in the organization

SPEAKER_00:

what you said earlier and something i wanted to just pick up on because you just reminded me of it is emotional intelligence emotion regulation whatever we want to call it it's an art and a science so there's a ton of a amazing science, like the stuff I've just shared, you know, in terms of what goes on with us biologically. So we can put energy investment into understanding the science, all of that stuff around it. But at the same time, all of that is universally true for all of us. All of us are human beings. There is science that is true for all of us. Let's understand it. But equally, all of us have our own individual journeys, relationships with emotions. We'll all feel them, but we might feel them at different intensities. We might express them differently. Like we opened up this conversation saying, I'm hugely sensitive and emotional, but other people aren't, you know? And so they can, well, it doesn't resonate with me, but you will still be feeling emotions. And so you'll have your own experience of emotions, your own relationship with them, The things that trigger you will be different to the things that trigger other people. You have your own beliefs about emotions. You'll have your own coping strategies about emotions. So you need to not only understand the science and the education around what are these things, but equally you need to really know yourself and put the time and energy and work into what often, you said the word dangerous earlier, and I think we get scared by that because we don't want to unearth some of those things up because some of these, the reason why we don't talk about them is a lot of the emotions we feel, we don't like feeling. you know

SPEAKER_01:

Well, particularly the negative ones. And of course, there is a focus much more on negative in society as well. You look at just how the press reports on much more negative things than positive things.

SPEAKER_00:

And there's two things on that. One is kind of the language. Again, we use, look at that academic, the academics call them negative and positive emotions. What a judgment, right? So the negative ones are bad ones. We shouldn't feel those. Those are horrible ones. And the positive emotions are the good ones. So we should feel those. I mean, immediately creating a judgment around it, which I fundamentally frustrates the hell out of me. And secondly, absolutely, you are bang on, right? So there are more... classically negative or emotions that we don't like feeling. But there are more of those than positive ones or whatever you want to call them. You know, there are more of those because they are the ones that stimulate action to make sure we're safe and awake. We're going to feel more of those types of emotions than we are some of the ones that we classically call positive ones. But there's a lack, there's a massive gap in research around happiness and the positive emotions. You look at the range of positive emotions that we could feel. I hate using the word totally, positive but I'm gonna for the sake of like the categories here but you know you've got things like contentness calm then you've got awe you've got inspired you've got motivated you've got feel rewarded you've got pride you know there's so there is like I did a bit of research I've got nearly 90 words we use to describe emotions that we like feeling those positive emotions but we know very little about them we don't use many of them but they're equally there for our survival and if we understood more about them They would actually, and we understood that actually emotions are more in our control than we think. We learn about how to stimulate some of those, manage some of the ones that are getting in the way a little bit. Anyway, so there's quite a lot. There's a lot. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I love what you're saying as well. And one of the reasons I invited you here today is, you know, you have a specific approach. So you you're very much an advocate for an integrated approach with how to manage emotion. So it's not just about developing your mindset, but it's actually how do you embody the emotions? So how does how does that work in practice? Can you share a bit about your approach?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So, again, you know, I picked I picked up quite a lot about language, say her and I, and So there is absolutely like this psychological element. And you look at a lot of brilliant, brilliant leaders and brilliant, brilliant coaches, but the tools we're often taught are just mind-based tools, you know. cognitive behavior therapy how do you tell the truth around what you're saying how do you reframe it how so absolutely and those are really valid tools right really really valid but they're one part of the picture you know as i've sort of been banging on about you know i think everything is connected right so emotions are uh biological chemical processes in our bodies all of our all of our organs in our bodies all of our systems in our bodies are so interconnected everything's interconnected so we've got an internet connected system within our bodies within our brains everything is connected and then you've got the system outside of us you know the social system we're in the environment the physical environment so actually it's so connected that if we're only looking at mind-based tools to help our emotions we're missing a trick because there's so many aspects to um emotions and what builds up in us and what uh and how to manage them and so i think because that's so interconnected um we have to look at how to manage them in lots of different ways not just going back to our childhood and looking at our beliefs and relationships but actually looking at our physiology and understanding that i mean things like i mean i could go on about this forever but i think that i guess there's four things there's four things that i do to make this simple and i think there's you need to reduce the likelihood of getting emotionally hijacked and how you do that is almost a long-term strategy over managing your entire health your entire life actually there's this there's kind of like how do you reduce the impact of getting triggered um and you know we talk about physical health and mental health and again that frustrates the hell out of me because they are one and the same it assumes

SPEAKER_01:

well i think the classic example is you know you think about if you've had enough sleep you've had a really good night's sleep you're raring to go whereas compared to when you've not slept very well you're much more likely to get triggered and be upset about something

SPEAKER_00:

sleep is underrated people say i'll sleep when i dead or it's a bit that we don't prioritize you know busy lives kids yeah people you care about you know caring responsibilities busy lives busy work but we reduce the amount of sleep that we have and yet sleep is I don't know if you've read any of Stephen Walker's um book why we sleep but he talks about it's the biggest single thing that could probably help you in every area of your physical and emotional life and it's free and yet we don't prescribe it right because during sleep actually they say time heals when you have emotional uh upsets and some big things it's not time it's sleep you help you kind of process that emotion so you might still remember the event but it the emotional impact behind it is diffused every system in your body is repaired and restored overnight we sleep so actually and if i was going to say to anybody one top tip to get your emotions back on track or back in control or helping you is prioritize sleep i totally get it's not easy so i think there's something about how do you consider yourself as a whole system what you're doing with your body are you moving it are you exercising it you know a lot of people talk about putting into it what when you eat you know this if you don't look at your and again it's so frustrating because nobody we rarely get this information given to us how do you understand your entire system functions and and actually it will cause more stresses to your body you know and and therefore it will cause you more you're more susceptible to feeling So there's more to just mind-based tools than managing it. There's long-term strategies. There's also in-the-moment strategies. You know, I talked about the kind of the hijack you get of the limbic system, hijacking your prefrontal cortex. Actually, there's some wonderful breathing techniques. There's a guy called Dr. Andrew Huberman who does the physiological sigh. Really simple breathing exercise. You can do it in seconds. You do two or three of them, and it calms your automatic nervous system down so breathing slows things down slows your heart rate down it might not suddenly change everything but it will calm you down enough to make a different choice around what you're going to deal with it so you know breathing is one of the only automatic systems in our body if not the only one that we can actually control and as i said it's so interconnected you you calm your breathing down it calms other things down

SPEAKER_01:

when you think about it when you're triggered and you're upset your breathing becomes much more shallow so by taking some really deep breaths it's going to absolutely your whole state, isn't

SPEAKER_00:

it? Out-breath, right? So the in-breath is related to ramping up your system. So the more, you know, more intense kind of short in-breaths you have, it will ramp you up. Whereas the letting go

SPEAKER_01:

is the out-breath, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the out-breath. So if you focus on letting the out-breath go more than the in-breath, you are slowly calming your system. So when I talked about communicating, you are communicating not through your mind, but through your body to your body and then to your heart and then to others, you know. So there's there's a this that's that whole picture that whole integrated picture and you know when you do a lot of research around a lot of kind of emotion management everyone stays in their lanes psychologists give you psychology-based tools biologists give you biology-based tools neurosciences give you you know no one's bringing it all together and i feel really strongly that's what my next book is that actually we need to look at the

SPEAKER_01:

whole picture You've given us some strategies for how to manage our emotions in the moment. I agree that breath work, taking some deep breaths is a great way to manage. In the moment, if you're feeling triggered, take some deep breaths and the letting out, letting go breaths are important. It will help change your state. What do you think are some other ways that leaders can start to build their emotional literacy, not just for themselves, but also to support their teams?

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's a really lovely question. And I think we've probably said a lot of that throughout this conversation actually there is it's the work you do on your yourself there is the work you do on yourself in terms of really doing a bit of a health check on me as as me as a person as a leader how healthy am i am i prioritizing my sleep how actually am i aware of how i feel when i go into there's something for me it sounds really simple but it's awareness absolute awareness of how I'm feeling and at that point you've got to accept that you will be feeling things you know you and I probably have been feeling a range of emotions as we've been going through this listening to this are probably a feeling a range of emotions as you know some people might be angry about something I said someone might go oh that's giving me hope thank you very you know for me I think it is absolute commitment to keep working on yourself as a as a lead first and foremost and not be this is a silly thing to say not be afraid to go there you know it's like how do you get bridge that we're not see exploring it through coaching or therapy or anything like that as a bad thing or as a weak thing. It's almost educating yourself about yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. And what you're saying again there is start with yourself and then it cascades and ripples to your team because your role modelling is the leader.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And especially as coaches, and you'll know this, Mary, we're human beings and we're coaches and we will be triggered before we go into helping someone. We might get triggered when they're helping us. We might feel ourselves like we feel want to cry because something's just happened that is very powerful. And, you know, and so if we're not constantly aware of managing ours and being OK with what's going on, how are we creating a safe, trust space for that person to be able to feel safe and trusted and okay and not judged and all we're trying so it's the same with leaders if you're not okay with emotions yourself how the bloomin heck are you going to be okay i initially was going to say if you know when you asked me that question with other people in your team are feeling emotions how do you get better it's like sit with it listen to them be there don't be afraid of it but then i thought well they're not going to do that if they have their own relationship with them what this is i don't even want to go anywhere near my emotions you know so you You've kind of got to sort that out before.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's something about for organisations to think about how they select leaders as well, which kind of links to my next question, which is about how we can create cultures where emotions are welcomed rather than silenced. And I think that is about the organisation. They're being really clear about the type of person they want to be leading in the organisation.

SPEAKER_00:

And what skills are we measuring? How often do we measure emotional intelligence or emotional regulation? or even talk about, you know, you talk to organizations, they wouldn't even use the word feelings. I mean, some people now, they don't like saying the word emotions. It's a bit trendy to say, feel the feels, you know, we use that. You know what I mean? They're sort of like, actually, let's get a bit more comfortable with that. So I think that's it. Actually, I don't know if you've seen this, but the Harvard Business Review, the Harvard Business School actually has identified that empathetic communication, emotional intelligence and social intelligence are in the top three most critical leadership skills for the future and actually so there's something about how do we link this with actually commercial success, you know? Success in the future, future-proofing. There was something in 2021, the World Economic Forum asked over 10,000 young leaders from about 165 countries, and this included entrepreneurs, scientists, activists, community leaders. They asked them, what do you believe will have the biggest global impact over the next decade? And they said, mental health deterioration. That was above climate change. It was above economic inequality. You know, it was above all the sort of things we think would be there. So I think this is not about what I said. It's very personal work. We've got to start with ourselves. Absolutely, we do. This isn't just about ourselves. This is future proof. And this is about communities. This is about organisations. So I think it's educating and making the link of this isn't just a nice to do everybody, you know, necessary. You know, there's a tonne more stats I could give out there as well. But those, I think, were really, really kind of stark messages.

SPEAKER_01:

So we cannot afford to let this one go, really. We've got to keep focusing on it. Now, you also talk about, or you posted recently, about helping women express their emotions. And this is where I get frustrated, is because women often get labelled as emotional, as if it's a really bad thing. And yet men do express their emotions, but they express different emotions, and that's thought to be okay. But what do you think holds us back? And how can we as women reclaim our space when it comes to expressing ourselves emotionally.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree there's something about women, but I just think it's holistic for everybody. It's the same for men and women. It's the same for men and women.

SPEAKER_01:

I suppose my take is it's all part and parcel of the same system that men find it increasingly difficult to be vulnerable. Women, it's much easier. So, you know, although Rachel Rees was kind of chastised for crying in Parliament, at least she was able to let the emotion out. Whereas many men it's not okay so there's this whole thing about men finding it hard to be vulnerable so let me let me ask you then how do you think gendered norms around emotional expression how can we actually start shifting that conversation because there are gendered norms about what's okay for women what's okay for men

SPEAKER_00:

there are and there are on the opposites as well so you know i think there there are gendered norms but i know lots of women who would hate to show their emotions you know particularly women in in a male orientated world and i think it just keeps i think it just keeps coming back to the same thing really which is that actually stop being afraid of emotions stop being afraid of of try to stop being afraid right you know it's like stop being afraid i suppose the shift that happened for me whether it's a gender norm or not i think is helping yourself with your own relationship with you again you've got to keep starting with yourself no matter where you are whether you're a man whether you're a woman whether you're a woman in a gendered environment you know whether you're a man in a gendered environment I think absolutely there are definitely these norms, right? There are definitely these stories that are true that if you're a woman, you're seen as this. And if you're a man, absolutely those stories are true. But there's also times where those stories are not true too. It's kind of really understanding, again, coming back to your relationship with yourself, your relationship with the emotions you're feeling and how you want, what's your values? How do you want to behave in this? And I think there's a multi-layered thing here, right? because you can kind of go I'm a woman and therefore this or I'm a man and therefore this it's like how do you even take that label out of the equation and I'm not saying these that it's not real because it totally is real you see discrimination you see the men and women you see all these norms but there's something about how do we help people take that out of the picture and just go these are emotions and we're humans and we're feeling them I don't know what's worked for me is seeing humans as humans rather than a man and a woman you know and I think That's difficult when you're growing up in a culture, you know, working with women in an engineering company and they're constantly sharing stories around the difficulties of being a woman in that environment and the things that they have to face because of the culture within it. But then you can talk to a male director in that business and he'll go, do you know the pressure I have? I'm really emotional and sensitive and I don't feel like I can share that amongst my board of directors. There's enough stories on both sides.

SPEAKER_01:

So what might be one thing you would support that male leader to do that feels that is emotional and sensitive What might be a helpful thing for him to take on so he is able to share and be a different type of role model in the organisation? It's going to be

SPEAKER_00:

sounding like a really stuck record, but I think he's got to get OK with it in himself, you know, and I... educating himself and educating others around that. And, you know, I think you do a bit of this work as well. It's very much linked to, you opened up our conversation around being authentic. There's something again about seeing what are your strengths and valuing your strengths. So that male director, who's amongst a lot of egos and a much male environment, you know, there's something about how does he go, that's fine, that's their strengths, but these are my strengths. And it doesn't matter whether I'm a man or a woman but I've got this sensitivity and I can help people so it's that balancing act of art and science again human and individual how do I know that I'm a human and therefore this is stuff that's going on because I'm human but equally how do I really get clear what's my unique strengths and how do I value those and how do I not think of myself as a man or whatever you know but think of myself as someone who has these strengths that help with that and I think that's a kind of a dual approach really.

SPEAKER_01:

I love the broken record analogy because what I'm going to say now is and it is about making sure whatever strengths you have your strengths are valid and they will be making a contribution and

SPEAKER_00:

you know we spend so long focusing on what we're rubbish at what we're no good at what we don't have what everybody else has and the thing is is we live in a bit of a fake world everyone comes to work with a mask on no one really totally tells the truth you know coaches and probably leaders as well we're in a really privileged position where people will totally tell us the truth and the truth we hear in those conversations is the truth that they may not share with anybody and so you've also got to remember that if you've got this social comparison that person looks like they've got it all together that person never shows any emotions that person's really strong and it's just not true and it's like how would you change the focus back on you and and really kind of value in who you are and understanding who you are and there's a trait you someone's got great you value that okay well it doesn't mean yours is less valuable just because something comes naturally to you You know, and if you want to have that trait, learn how to do it if it doesn't come out. The thing about knowing the value of each of us, but no one's taught us that. No one's taught us how to value the uniqueness of each of us, whether that's our emotions, whether that's how we pick up emotions in others.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So, Steph, you mentioned the book that you're writing and how a lot of what we've talked about today connects with what you're writing at the moment. So can you share with us a bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, it's very passionate. You'll probably get it.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm not surprised to hear that.

SPEAKER_00:

Release, funnily enough, the art and science of emotional intelligence and managing your emotions. And for me, like Leap, I'm a really big fan of creating something that gives people science-based insights. You go, wow, I didn't know that, or that's really helpful, but then you can do something about it. So it's very, very much about, okay, I've told you this bit about the prefrontal cortex and the limbic system. Here's some things you can go and do now to manage that or understand that, or here's some tools and techniques. So again, it's kind of from my tried and tested tools and techniques of helping people with emotion management there's sort of five steps five kind of practical things that they can do and apply them and again it's this integrated approach so it's taking me a while to write because I'm having to do a lot of research and lots of my own research to kind of bring everything together it's in my emotional philosophical thing is it's a guide and an invitation so it's like a guide to help you in this field and an invitation to kind of welcome emotions into the conversation well welcome them into our lives and not be afraid of them and actually just explore this as a possibility of of what it could do to help you and and others i

SPEAKER_01:

like that because you talk about we should be inviting emotions rather than suppressing them which i really really love

SPEAKER_00:

and and not just from a like a very nice a nice sort of thing to feel and say but also physically if you're not inviting them if you are suppressing them they're screwing with your body you know they are absolutely messing up your body

SPEAKER_01:

well you just think if you're tense or anxious and you're not expressing that or staying aware of it that the the stress that will have on your body

SPEAKER_00:

your internal systems the hormones that are going to be released or not released the functioning of the digestive system function of your immune system you know every system in our body is is being affected hugely interlinked so i guess that's kind of what the book is it's kind of let me just show you how it's all linked and then we give you some strategies whether they're long-term strategies to look after yourself or short-term in the moment strategies to deal with that moment you know when you want to punch someone you know you really shouldn't in the middle of the office, you know, what you're going to do about it, what's going to be Rachel Reeves just about to cry, you know, how you manage that.

SPEAKER_01:

Great. And I know you've given us a lot of tips and a lot of advice as we've gone through this conversation today, but what would be the last thing you'd like to share with our listeners here today?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there's a quote I'd like to share. So I don't know if you've asked Dr. Susan David, she's done a TED Talk, she's written a book about emotional agility, but she says this wonderful thing, right? She says, to never get hurt, stressed, or inconvenienced by your emotions is only a realistic goal of a dead person so I guess for me it's self-awareness be aware what emotions are showing up in you how they show up in you what triggers you fundamentally accept that they're there it's really hard this may not you know I may not like this I may not want it but it's here and I think it's actually knowing that actually Releasing the energy behind that, finding a way to release that emotion sooner rather than later. So then you don't have a Rachel Reeves moment where it comes and you just literally simply cannot control it. find a way you know and there'll be different ways that you can do it yourself whether that's you know you have a punch bag at home and that's how you release the energy because again i think you know there's just tapping back into the evolutionary reason and the energy that's created within you and the urge you have how do you release that emotions are meant to be short-lived really how do you find a safe way how do you accept that it's there accept that it's um it's going on and then because you've accepted it find a way to really gosh

SPEAKER_01:

steph there have been so many things that you've shared with us today and I've what I've really loved is that we've had a proper conversation about this we could go on for hours I'm sure but we're actually coming to the end of our time I would you know would you like to share with us where people can connect with you where's the best place for them to connect with you

SPEAKER_00:

well I've tried very hard not to be on too many social media things to manage my own emotions so so yeah LinkedIn I'm on LinkedIn so it's just a Steph yeah it's just such Steph Tranter and I'm on there and that's my main place and and then my website which is stephtranter.com

SPEAKER_01:

thank you so much for joining us today oh

SPEAKER_00:

you're very welcome been an absolute pleasure really i could talk for ages

SPEAKER_01:

thank you so much for listening to the she leads collective podcast if this episode resonated with you follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment change happens through conversation so let's keep this one going listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter take care and keep leading with heart

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Mary Gregory

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