She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women

Episode 14 - Beyond Strong and Sensitive: Rethinking Gender and Vulnerability with Zeenat Ahmed-Peto

• Mary Gregory • Season 1 • Episode 14

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Trigger warning: This episode includes discussion of male suicide and mental health.

Why is it that men are told to be “strong” while women are labelled “too sensitive”? And what happens when those same societal rules leave both men and women struggling in silence?

In this powerful episode, released on World Suicide Prevention Day, I’m joined by award-winning cognitive hypnotherapist and author Zeenat Ahmed Peto. Together, we explore how the very system that holds women back also pressures men to hide their emotions — sometimes with devastating consequences.

We discuss:

  • How childhood and culture shape emotional expression differently for men and women.
  • Why vulnerability is still so uncomfortable at work.
  • The subtle signs someone may be covering up their struggles.
  • Small, human actions leaders, colleagues and families can take to create safety and connection.

If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to

Mind UK https://www.mind.org.uk  

The Samaritans https://www.samaritans.org

or your GP. In an emergency, always call 999.

Connect with Zeenat on LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/zeenatahmedpeto/

If you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator

🔗 Connect with me: marygregory.com

📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregory

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mary_gregory/

📰 Newsletter: Subscribe on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7029410958645059584

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Before we start Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. Why is it that so many successful, emotionally aware men would rather suffer in silence than be seen asking for help. We often hear about the pressure women face at work, but what about men, especially those who feel things deeply, but have been taught to stay silent? Why is it that so many successful men would rather suffer in silence than risk being seen as vulnerable or not coping? And what's the hidden cost of that for them and for the people around them? Today, I'm joined by Zeenat Ahmed Petto, an experienced and multiple award-winning cognitive hypnotherapist and author of Too Kind, a survival guide for sensitive souls. Zeenat specialises in helping people recover from trauma, stop people pleasing, I certainly could do with some of that, and create healthy emotional boundaries. One of her areas of work that is especially powerful is her support for emotionally aware professional men, many of whom struggle silently with confidence, communication education and self-worth. She helps them find their voice, strengthen their self-esteem and create deeper connection, both at work and at home. And I'm absolutely delighted that Zena has given up her time to join us here today. Hello, Zena. Thank you for being here. Hi, Mary. It's lovely to be here. That's fantastic. So, Zena, to begin with, tell us a bit about your business as a hypnotherapist and the sort of people that you work with, because I know that you work with men and women, don't you? I do. I

SPEAKER_01:

do work with men and women. I've been working using hypnotherapy for over 13 years now. And the men that I speak to are generally leaders, and they work in corporations, sometimes they're business owners, and the women can be from lots of different sectors as well. They tend to be sensitive people, people who have had problems with people pleasing and boundaries. They're often very giving and And hence why I wrote the book Too Kind, because they have this trait of being very, very kind and thoughtful, but often not looking after themselves very well. A lot of the work I do is helping them to empower themselves to get stronger.

SPEAKER_00:

So being able to set boundaries, being

SPEAKER_01:

able to say no. And often that there's sort of autoimmune issues as well. And I think a lot of that is when you have poor boundaries, it's mirrored in the physiological as much as the psychological experiences they have.

SPEAKER_00:

I've invited you here because I know you work with both men and women. But I also out of a conversation that you and I had, that where we started to discuss the differences you've noticed between how the women who you work with behave and how the men you work with behave. So would you like to share some of those differences absolutely

SPEAKER_01:

I would say that the the men and the women that come to me they as they as I mentioned before they do have the similar sort of traits but they might show themselves in different ways so with the men they they often will try and hide it they they don't like being known as sensitive if they see that as a very sort of negative term and they even if you were to say you know that they're empathic or deep feeling or emotionally intelligent Maybe they're better words for them. They sound better to them. Some of them haven't ever really admitted it to themselves. Some of them have spent a lifetime trying to hide it or run away from it. And certainly I've spoken to men that as they were growing up, it was something that they were ashamed of, feeling things strongly, feeling things deeply. And, you know, it wasn't encouraged. In fact, it was often asked, they were asked to hide it sometimes by their parents, often by their fathers. teachers and bosses and male role models in their lives with the women they were encouraged sometimes to be caring and thoughtful and all of those things were seen as very positive feminine traits but then obviously being classed as too sensitive in inverted commas was always a negative as well that oh she's too sensitive she's going to find things difficult in life a bit sort of bordering on neurotic Those kind of quite negative terms. So I think for women, it's been quite a challenge in a different

SPEAKER_00:

way. have been rewarded for not showing their emotions and chastised for when they did show their emotions. So how does that impact the way they show up? When a man comes to you, how do they behave that's differently to how when a woman comes to you?

SPEAKER_01:

I've noticed that with the men, they like to speak to somebody completely new, someone who doesn't know them and there's a sort of extra element of privacy and safety for them. They will reach out through my website or through you know they'll find me online and fill in a form and arrange to have a conversation it's very kind of straightforward whereas with the women they tend to have got to know me over time through social media or videos or they may have met me in person and I think once that barrier has broken down between you know what people see on a screen and and when they get to know you I think the women prefer that in my experience and the men prefer if they don't know me and they've not met me in person

SPEAKER_00:

they want to keep the oral relationship much more to distance

SPEAKER_01:

yes most definitely

SPEAKER_00:

and does that include the amount of trouble they'll take to get to see

SPEAKER_01:

you oh yes definitely i mean i would say that 90 of my female clients are online and 90 actually currently 100 of my male clients are in person and most of them live a good 10 miles away so they will drive or catch the train and come and see me away from their home or where they work that reduces the risk of them bumping into you they won't bump into me also some of them have said they don't like working online talking about something so personal yeah because they're afraid of it being recorded or it being found somehow someone's said that to me before or even just you know the rapport the actual connection that you get with a human sitting in a room talking together they feel they're already struggling to open up so they it takes away that barrier from yeah just going through the motions and actually connecting much more So

SPEAKER_00:

I'm already hearing a heightened anxiety with your male clients versus your female clients. And so I'm wondering what kind of issues do your male clients tend to bring to you?

SPEAKER_01:

Interesting. They tend to come to me with a surface level issue. And they'll say something like, I'm having some difficulty with public speaking, or I need some help, my confidence in presenting at work, or something like that and it will sound like a sort of competence level issue or a you know confidence in that way and you know we start off working on those things and quite quickly those things get better but what actually transpires is underneath that there's there's a lot of layers and you know when you go back it's like where did this confidence in not being able to speak up and say what you really feel or say in your own personal way or use your personality where have those worries come from? And they often come from childhood, growing up, time as a teenager, when they're sort of becoming a man and how, you know, they weren't confident at that time, or maybe they were teased or they picked up some messages somehow that the way they were being wasn't the norm or as the expectations were.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think what we've ascertained is that a lot of this reluctance to be vulnerable to admit how you're feeling for men, particularly it goes back to childhood, to societal messages, to parental messages that have been passed on to them. In your view, though, how do you think traditional workplaces might contribute further to some of the mental health struggles that men face? I

SPEAKER_01:

think in lots of these cases, there's a kind of macho culture. And sometimes there's almost a toxic culture that what is toxic, you know, You know, you can ask lots of questions about that. But I suppose in places where there's a boss ruling with fear or there's a feeling that they're interested in results over people or they're having sort of ridiculous expectations for unattainable deadlines or when people don't feel valued, I think those things contribute to that feeling of toxicity. And if you are someone who's a bit sensitive to the atmosphere or the dynamics between people that can really be an issue and I think those things might not be they're not sort of taken into into account maybe in the culture of the company always and although people have you know they have their branding and their their vision and their mission and all of that it doesn't always translate into the nitty-gritty of the everyday in the office in the corporate structure and if there's someone who's been in that in the position of being their boss for a long time and may have a lot of power they might not have the time or the energy and they might be put upon massively from the people above them expecting them to create results and so on and somehow if you're a person who isn't able to have very good boundaries or speak up for yourself or say no or take the time out to look after yourself you can end up feeling very put upon and pulled in many different directions and lots of the men I work with they have you know a partner children maybe at university or maybe finishing school older parents lots of different people needing their support in different ways and yes and financially they're at their sort of peak but it could all go wrong tomorrow if they don't keep it up so there's a lot of

SPEAKER_00:

pressure so feeling a lot of pressure feeling a lot of anxiety and I'm also saying some of the things you mentioned there are a lot of the things that women experience as well so it's almost like what you're suggesting is it's part and parcel of the same system that holds women back also impacts men in this very pressurized way who similarly find it hard to say no and set boundaries for themselves absolutely and and that's

SPEAKER_01:

why um i suppose this is why i work with men and women because really i'm working with the issue this um this personality type or these people who experience these kinds of traits they don't they're not necessarily male or female that's not the thing that differentiates them it's their the way they are is that is that they're very kind and um they see the world with sort of almost optimism and positivity but they don't always get that reflected back at them which can be quite a burden can you say more about that absolutely the people that i work with are often very emotionally intelligent they're sort of switched on and tuned into lots of different levels if you like of human behavior they tend to have you know very good visual abilities they can see physically but also they can see the emotions as well so they're emotionally intelligent they're tuned in in that way they might have very sensitive hearing and they just tend to understand other people they're empathic often but some people it will show much more their empathic side will show much more particularly the women because it's been in Yes. With the younger men, it's quite different because they are speaking more. They are talking to their friends. There's a great push to talk, for men to talk, for young men to talk. And they don't have the sort of shame attached to being so connected with their feelings that the older generations tend to have. So that's a really positive thing. That's changing. And I'm seeing that a lot when I work with

SPEAKER_00:

younger men. That's very encouraging to see because it's men between 30 and 50 i think suicide is the highest uh form of kill of death yeah for for men in those those generations i think

SPEAKER_01:

it's the the highest rate is between

SPEAKER_00:

45 and 55 right okay vulnerable group of men in terms of not opening up and talking about what's happening for them yeah they'd rather it sounds like they get serious depression and then they just they take really drastic action yes it's shocking it is it is terrifying yeah Yes. How do we make sure that both men and women get the support they need and that the whole thing about inclusion doesn't become a zero sum game? Because I think some of the experiences or some of the conversations I've heard around the workplace, particularly from men is, well, women are getting all the attention and men are feeling threatened and neglected as well. So how do we make sure that women get their needs met, which have been neglected for many years, and without excluding men? Great question.

SPEAKER_01:

I think this is really about, you know, when we talk about equity and, you know, people misunderstand equality and equity, don't they? And, you know, I think the easiest way to understand it is just to remember this analogy that if you say, we've got a barrier here and we're watching something and we're just, there's somebody who's a child who can't see. So we give them a chair to stand on so that they can stand up and they can see it. the same as the adults. But what if someone's in a wheelchair? But what if someone's, you know, something else? So it's about equity. So giving somebody a chair and giving somebody a wheelchair would make it equitable, would make it possible for everyone to be able to experience those things together rather than equally just giving everybody a chair to stand on, which they might not be able to use. So I think the thing here is about understanding that, yes, of course, women have, you know, thousands of years to catch up on but i i do think there's also an issue here about the sort of toxic conversations that are happening online regarding men and yeah and some of the rise of the very toxic conversations that happen particularly with the younger men and with teenagers i think that's a big issue because we're going forward supporting women it doesn't mean we should ignore the men no and i think this is about actually understanding what everybody needs what do people need to feel safe to feel Yes. Thank you so

SPEAKER_00:

much. It is different for a woman and it is different for a man. You know, the whole subject of the mental load, for example, many men just don't appreciate because it haven't been brought up that way, don't appreciate how much women may well be juggling. And I'm hoping it's changing as the younger generations come through. But certainly in my generation and Generation X just below, it's just normal that the women still do the majority of the caring, for example. Absolutely. But I don't think men necessarily appreciate I think you're

SPEAKER_01:

right. And I think also, I mean, just the same way that the women have so many other things to do and the expectations that often they are caring for the family, even if their children have grown up, they might have uncles, aunts, parents and people who need some extra care. And that often falls to the women. And also taking care of the home and preparing meals and all of those sorts of things often falls to the women. falls to the women. But at the same time, when you've got these high level male leaders, they feel they can't just take a day off or have a holiday because they have to pay for the mortgage, pay for retirement, you know, the children's university, maybe they want to get on the property ladder. So there's an awful lot of financial pressure on those men to keep performing at that high level. And not just being able to say, you know what, I think I'll just take early retirement because that will change everybody's expectations of what their life's going to be

SPEAKER_00:

like. So there's enormous responsibility on their shoulders. And actually, that's about how the family works. Because I interviewed a female CEO recently, and her whole thing is that she is always on. So even when she's with the family and she's away and having leisure time, she has her phone switched on in case there's an emergency and she is needed. And her husband He has a really important job as well, but he works a shorter week than she does. Intentionally, they've worked that out so that one of them is there if needs be as the parent. So it's the man or the woman, one of them taking that role and carrying more of the load than the other. That's something that a couple have to negotiate for themselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. And

SPEAKER_00:

I think,

SPEAKER_01:

you know, this even comes down to how, you know, you asked me at the beginning, how did they approach me? You know, how did my clients approach me? I would say even that's very different. So with the men, they tend to book a call, we have a conversation and they'll say, okay, let's go ahead and book the sessions. Please send me the invoice and they'll just pay the invoice. It's really simple. Whereas with the women, more often than not, they'll say, we've had a really good conversation and they'll say, I'm 90% yes, but I just need to have a conversation with my partner.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Whether they're

SPEAKER_01:

male or female. male they will say i i need to have a conversation with the other person in my household that i share my life so that i can ensure that i can put this amount of money into this this pot right for my therapy whereas with the men they'll just say i need it and i'm going to have it there it's quite different so with the women are they asking permission sometimes they're asking permission sometimes they're juggling something else to make it work um but but more often than not they want they want

SPEAKER_00:

approval that okay to spend that money and i guess what i'm hearing as well as an openness in their relationship that i'm getting help for myself and for the men there may not be we don't know whether they're sharing it with their partner or not

SPEAKER_01:

i think often they are sharing it but it's more of a it's more of a done deal and it's and this is something i'm doing and because it's probably taken quite a lot of effort for them to get to that point so once they pick up the phone they're pretty much they're just choosing the person they want to work with all the modality you know type of therapy, but they are going to get some help because they have got to the point of desperation often.

SPEAKER_00:

Very good. So coming back to the workplace, what steps do you think leaders can do to create a culture where both men and women can speak safely or feel safe to speak about things they might be struggling with? I think

SPEAKER_01:

they need to be, you know, talking about these sorts of issues about mental health as much as physical health. You know, I health is not it's not one thing and the other it's a continuum and it's a cycle and it's a circle it's everything and as I mentioned before quite often people who have a particular issue with their emotions that will play out in their body and sometimes they will go to the doctor with physical symptoms which is actually being stem stems from an emotional issue yeah or a psychological issue so I think what they can can do in the workplace is really working on having this conversations, I would say, you know, when they put their training time aside, that we're going to have some extra training on this IT or this AI new tools that we're going to use or this compliance, or these new rules that are coming in from wherever, there should also be some time put aside for well being, whether you call whatever you call it, whether it's called well being, whether it's called communication, whether it's called something else, it's about having that dialogue and that space for people within the teams and within the organisation to have conversations about how am I doing? What am I struggling with? What would I need to make something better? And, you know, many years ago, I worked in the public sector as a primary school teacher and we were having just such a conversation because we had a training day put aside just for our wellbeing because there were so many people off sick all the time and people were going off with stress and all sorts. And there was such a simple list of things we came up with and and you wouldn't believe it was so minor you know in the grand scheme of things it was when I go to the bathroom I would like to have soap and paper towels you know it was so tiny really basic things so basic and you know immediately the next day you know people brought in hand washes from home and nice you know smelly things to put in the bathroom and just things that made you feel a bit valued the tininess little things but when you're talking a sort of corporate area it tends to be you know those things are taken care of but it might be the how I actually feel when I walk into a room or how I'm greeted or the etiquette around email or the etiquette around when we send out emails and is there a cut-off point at which I'm not necessarily expected to reply and those sorts of things you know just putting in those boundaries in a in a kind of macro way so that it affects everybody But also understanding that people have different needs. And because somebody is getting some extra help with this doesn't mean you're not going to be helped with something else. And also having that openness where you can go and speak to somebody when you're struggling with something. People can't always tell what you're dealing with just by how you appear, because many people are very good at masking.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the thing. So just to sum up on what you've just said, it's the micro action and micro moments, actually, that can make such a difference. So how you treat somebody in a split second, you know, whether you smile at them when they walk in a room, or whether you keep your head down and ignore them, those are those micro moments that can really make a difference in terms of the sort of atmosphere and culture you're creating. But I'm also curious about the whole, you mentioned about people are good at wearing a mask and covering up, you know, they might be feeling awful underneath, but they're all looking very jolly and I'm reminded of a friend of my daughter's actually who is a fantastic young man really really life and soul of the party always looking after everybody else and he committed suicide when he was about 27 that's so tragic and nobody knew and you know people at his work sang his praises I suppose my question is I don't know whether this is possible but what are the signs that we should be looking for of somebody who may be wearing a really thick

SPEAKER_01:

mask that's such a good question mary and i think you know it really does depend on a number of issues but i think you know somebody like that young man i'm so sorry to hear that tragic story really sad really really sad but the thing is that's not that's

SPEAKER_00:

not

SPEAKER_01:

a unique no it's not a unique story and um i i know a charity that i will um give you the name of later that that deals with um it's a drop-in center it's in london but it's for young men of you know exactly that sort of demographic which was started because another young man committed suicide I think you know if you are a partner or a friend or a parent then I think it's about having those touch points of conversation and just being really really trying to be super aware that when they're saying oh yes I'm fine everything's fine noticing when you notice a slight hesitancy or a pause or or hopefully if you're a partner or a parent or a sibling or friend you might know that person very well and you might be the only person who can pick that up so even though they're saying the words it will be their actions their demeanor that all of those little tiny things if they change their habits of of when you might normally meet them or speak to them or they might send you a text message those sorts of things i would just be very aware of that The more awareness we have of these conversations, every single person can make a tiny difference. You know the whole thing about when you're on the tube or on the train and you're just aware that there's somebody acting a bit erratically and walking up and down or they might be a bit agitated and it's calling for help, distracting that person for a second. You might save their life if they're planning to jump or something like

SPEAKER_00:

that. And in the workplace, what are the signs, not necessarily that they might want to take their own life, but that they're moving towards struggling, getting really stressed and they're covering it up. What might be some of the signs in the workplace? Definitely. I think, you

SPEAKER_01:

know, anybody who's turning up, not turning up, you know, going off sick, being late, maybe something's changed. They weren't ever late and now they're suddenly late or they're not appearing or they're appearing tired or not quite themselves in whichever way that might be in their appearance or their demeanour. I think it's just being aware of other people, isn't it? It's just being a human being. Just seeing the changes. If there's any change, that's when you should be more alert. And earlier you said, you know, if you have a culture of when people walk in, everybody looks up and just gives a nod or a smile. You know, everyone's busy. They don't have time for a chat, but they could just look up and just having that face-to-face contact. Now, obviously, lots of people work online. You know, many, many offices are still quite empty and people are working online. but it's just checking in every day online even because that's even harder to check how somebody's doing if their email sounds perfectly healthy how do you know if they're okay or not

SPEAKER_00:

you know and that's another layer of challenge isn't it that people are working much more virtually so as a leader how do you stay in touch with your team and where they are emotionally

SPEAKER_01:

absolutely

SPEAKER_00:

if you're not necessarily seeing them face to

SPEAKER_01:

face exactly and I think having those kind of networks of conversations as well so you know speaking to each person individually and having a checking not just a performance review which is very much feels like an interview but more like a general chat how things going how you're finding this new software how you're finding are there any challenges you know how's your family life is everything okay that kind of thing but also speaking with the colleagues I think is really important and having that sort of regular check-in because you know sometimes people are having regular conversations with their boss but it's only when it's a performance review but I mean more as a sort of Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

in the corporate world. It can be so full on, do, do, do, focusing on the task all the time that it's so easy to let these things slip. So there is something about as leaders needing to be just that little bit more conscious, compassionate.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Not just to yourself and to others so that when you need to notice, you notice. And the job will still get done. It will get done. The results will still be achieved, but they can be achieved with a lot more humanity.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. Definitely. I think that's beautiful. way of putting it I think that's so with all the rise of AI threatening to take over the world and all of our jobs we are the humans with the skills with the soft skills and we're the ones who need to take care of each other and the people

SPEAKER_00:

yes

SPEAKER_01:

in our teams and the people we work with the people we work for even that boss who's causing us great problems has probably got lots of issues themselves that are you know they can't always articulate what's going on for them so it's kind of compassion i think is really important

SPEAKER_00:

very much so and those are the skills the really sensitive people skills that is so difficult for ai to replicate so that's why humans will never go out of existence i agree because so you know your final questions what gives you hope for the future when it comes to shifting our culture and the way men and women are treated in the way you know to support men to be okay with being vulnerable and to help even up that playing field for women as well what gives you hope I

SPEAKER_01:

think having younger people in my life I have a niece and a nephew and another niece all in their 20s and they're working in the corporate world and just the way that they conduct themselves obviously they're a reflection of their their upbringing and so on and so forth but the culture within their workplaces I often ask them how they're getting on you know what are they finding difficult or easy And they never seem to say to me any of the things we've spoken about. These things are quite different because they have a very open way of talking naturally and it's encouraged and it's sort of baked into the culture of the companies that they're working for, especially the sort of media companies and startups. They tend to be run by very young people as well. So they understand each other in a completely different way. They're quite understanding about working in open plan space because they will hot desk and they will work in you know shared spaces and a lot of them are living with friends because they can't afford to live on their own so they have to negotiate that within their home life as well even if they have a partner there they might be living in a in a house with several people so that gives me hope and I have worked with quite a few people in their 20s late 20s in in the corporate world male and female and they just seem to be much much more emotionally aware and they don't seem to have the shame that a lot of the older generations have where they're sort of embarrassed about, you know, we still have the stiff upper lip and keep it all in and just look professional on the outside and not really show how we feel. But they seem to wear their heart on their sleeve a bit more.

SPEAKER_00:

That is good to hear because I think a lot of the challenges for men to open up is linked to shame and not feeling okay to do that. because that's not what a man is meant to do in inverted commas, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, of

SPEAKER_00:

course. So I think I feel like we've touched on some really sensitive topics today. So if any of our listeners are worried or concerned about some of the men that are in their lives, it could be colleagues, it could be fathers, sons, brothers, best friends, partners. Where can they get help from? I mean,

SPEAKER_01:

there's so many places now to get support. And I would say just if you're that person who's that point of contact Yeah. Yeah. that's democratized it for a lot of people it's made it cheaper and more available for a lot of people I'm not saying it's necessarily better or worse but for some people just going out of their home might be a step too far so just being able to access support online can be really helpful there's a number that you can call which is an NHS number and I think there's a number which is shout if you if you spell out the word shout and there's a number which I will give you later there are people that can support you and they'll give you phone call if you're in crisis but obviously if you're in a mental health crisis I would go straight to your GP and if it's a really severe one go straight to A&E and they will get you the help that you need but what we want is to prevent that we don't want to get to that point but if you're the person who's noticing something I would speak to a colleague or a friend or a family member to ask them what do you think I'm noticing this I'm a bit worried and when you've got two of you or even maybe more of you it can help to support that person because they don't always respond maybe to you you might not be the right person you might make it worse for them because yes and there might be somebody who's a better person to communicate with them but I would reach out for help and I would also try and gently open the conversation and be prepared that they might not want to talk to you and they might want to speak to someone else

SPEAKER_00:

okay thank

SPEAKER_01:

you

SPEAKER_00:

and if people want to connect with you how can they connect

SPEAKER_01:

with you so my website is znatamedpito.com, which I can share with you later. And I'm on LinkedIn and they can find me on Instagram and Facebook. And I'm also on Substack.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much, Znat. You've been so enlightening with us today on a very sensitive topic. And I really appreciate the time you've given

SPEAKER_01:

us. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mary. I really appreciate having this conversation today.

SPEAKER_00:

Before we wrap up, I want to share something with you. Do you ever feel like your confidence is isn't really the issue, but wish you could strengthen your ability to deal with things that keep chipping away at it. The bias, the double standards, the pressure to prove yourself, to name just a few. That's exactly why I created Exploding the Confidence Myth, a three-month program for women leaders who are ready to change that story. It combines one-to-one coaching, group coaching, and a powerful in-person workshop. The next program starts at the beginning of November, with the workshop taking place on the 7th of November at the Connacht Rootens in Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.

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Mary Gregory

Host