Episode 17 - Beyond the Man Box - How Men Become True Allies with Robert Baker

What does it take to turn good intentions into real change? In this conversation, Robert Baker—founder of Potentia Talent Consulting, board member at European Women on Boards, UN Women UK, and Women in Quantum Development, and former co-president of PWN Global—shares how to engage men as allies and build inclusive, gender-balanced cultures that last. 

We explore the “aha” moments from his men’s workshops (including stereotypes we don’t notice), how to counter the “zero-sum” fear when women rise, and why psychological safety and accountability matter more than one-off training. Robert also talks boards, redefining success for men, and practical steps leaders can take—starting this week. If you care about moving from statements to systemic change, then this one’s for you.

 Listen in and share with a colleague who’s ready to lead differently.

Connect with Robert on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-baker-potentia-talent-consulting/

If you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and Welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. What does it really mean to be an ally to women? And how do we move from intention to meaningful action? Well, in today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Robert Baker, someone who has been walking the talk on gender equity for many, many years. Robert is the founder of Potentia Talent Consulting, a past co-president of PWN Global, and currently serves on the boards of several leading organisations advancing women's leadership, including European Women on Boards, UN Women UK and Women in Quantum Development. With a deep background in corporate consulting, including leading diversity and inclusion consulting for Mercer's international region, Robert now works with organisations and leadership teams to help them unlock the full potential of diverse talent. What makes his work particularly powerful is his focus on engaging men in the conversation. delivering workshops that challenge perspectives, build empathy and create systemic change. He's also been named Disruptor in Residence at EDEC Business School, a title I absolutely love because it reflects how Robert shows up with courage, clarity and a willingness to challenge the status quo. Today, I hope that we're going to explore what first sparked Robert's commitment to gender equity, how he helps organisations build the business case for And the practical things any of us, but especially men, can do to help even up the playing field. So Robert, warm welcome to you and thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:14

Thanks, Mary. And it's a real pleasure to be with you here today. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

I am too, because in our preparation call, I have to flag that even in our prep call, I learned so much from you. So I hope that that is going to be repeated in the conversation that we have now and that our listeners are going to benefit from that. So let's kick off then and just consider, you know, you've had a really long, successful career in corporate consulting. What first motivated you to become an active ally for gender equity?

SPEAKER_00: 2:48

Well, actually, it happened when I was working in consulting. I'd been at university with some really smart women and very capable women. And yet when I found myself in the consulting world, I didn't find as many of those women as I thought I would, and certainly not at the top of the organization. The kind of culture in the early days in consulting, and I'm talking some years ago now, of course, was very much about, you know, boasting how many hours you worked, how much you build your clients, where you could bill your clients for playing golf with them, how much you could drink when you went drinking, all that kind of stuff. So it was kind of what you'd probably call an alpha male culture. And not surprisingly, it wasn't a culture that was particularly welcoming to women. Although some women did succeed in it, it wasn't really, in a sense, what I would call a balanced environment. So actually, when there was a woman at Mercer looking to set up a woman's network, I was talking to her and I was saying, look, do you want men to support this? How can men support what you're doing? And what we realized was two things. One, that we needed men to support it because we had a lot of men in the organization, a lot of men in positions of power. So if they supported it and got behind it, then we'd go further. The second thing we realized was if we called it a women's network, no men would turn up to meetings because they think it's a women's network meeting. And what's that got to do with me? So the clever trick that we came up with was giving it a gender neutral name called the VAR. And then men came to Vine meetings and we talked about issues that affected everybody, you know, promotions, development, leadership, all those sort of things that were interest of women and men. And so men came along and we had like 40% of the audience of these meetings was men. And what happened as a result of that was at one point we were collaborating with another women's network that Mercer supported at that stage called PWN Global, which stood for Professional Women's Network Global. they were trying to also basically reach out and engage men. And I think they found me. And those years ago, I was one of the few men really engaging in this work. So they said, look, will you come and be the first man on our board and come and have the role of getting other men engaged in gender equality? So there I was, all of a sudden, found myself on the board of Women's Network, me, the only man, sort of trying to work out how the hell to keep up with these amazingly smart women and make sure that I made my contribution. And then that really led to my interest in the barriers that women face in the workplace, how we men as allies can support women, you know, and a recognition, if you like, that we didn't face some of those barriers, but there was a lot more that we could do. And that either we weren't aware of what we could do, or we weren't taking an interest in what we could do. So a key part of what I wanted to do was kind of highlight to men the benefits of showing up as allies and of showing up as, you know, inclusive leaders and so that's that was really the spark to the work that then led me into leading the diversity and inclusion consulting practice because actually I was interested not just in if you like the challenges for women but the challenges for everyone and of course you know there were challenges for people of color challenges for people with disabilities I have a son on the neuro diverse spectrum you know so like there were I realized that we that it's not a level playing field really for everybody so if we can remove barriers and we can play an active role and engage everyone in the organization, then I think we're going to be in a better place. So that's what led me into that. Then when I left Mercer, I could have retired, I think, really, except that I was still very passionate about seeing change and therefore set up my own business doing this work. And since then, that's been a phenomenal change, as it were, because I've been able to really be unconstrained, if you like, in the work that I'm doing and really enjoy both the work side of things. I Yes. Gosh,

SPEAKER_01: 6:54

your passion is oozing through your story that you've just told there. But I've got an aside question on that. What was it like when you were first on that board and you were the only man amongst amazing, smart women, as you described them? What was that like? Because it felt to me like a bit of a battle. because so many women must experience that. So I wonder as a man what that felt like.

SPEAKER_00: 7:20

Well, it's very interesting because I sort of thought back about all of this. I mean, in a sense, it was a bit intimidating because the women were super smart and I was coming into an environment that I wasn't familiar with. Okay, so it was kind of how is this going to go and how will they react to me, et cetera. And of course, there are all these sort of silly things like do I call them ladies, do I call them women, you know, like, you know, Most men are frightened of making mistakes. And I was terrified, if you like, of making a mistake where everyone would jump on me and go, you stupid man, how did you not understand that this is the way that women see things? But actually, the women were incredibly open, accommodating, tolerant, patient, probably maybe more so than maybe some men would be if it was the only woman coming into a board meeting, as it were. But nevertheless, I think we realize that there were some differences between us, but actually, we could be complementary. So I always remember one of the big debates we had was very early on. I said, listen, in my role, you know, I want to, I want to budget for the work that I'm doing. And it's like, oh my God, he's asking for a budget. You know, like we don't have many people asking for budgets and it's just typical. A man comes in, starts asking for a budget, you know, like what's going on. But I think what we learned was that actually, you know, women can learn from men and men can learn from women. We can learn from each other. And I think the fact that I came in with a slightly more kind of bolder, you know, like how do we make this work? thing was actually, I think, welcomed. So we moved from being, you know, kind of more focused on challenging and discussing the issues to what I would call a sort of a bit more of an action orientation. And I think that combination of both was really critical.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

Fantastic. And some great learning on both sides, I should imagine.

SPEAKER_00: 9:03

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 9:03

absolutely. Great. Okay. Let's talk a bit about your work, your workshops that you do with men and engaging men in the conversation of gender equity. Yeah. You run workshops specifically for men. I'm curious about what some of the common blind spots are or light bulb moments that you've observed or seen emerge in sessions.

SPEAKER_00: 9:27

Yes, absolutely. Well, the first thing to say is the workshops we run for men are often couched in sessions that we've run previously with women and men together. this in front of you know my female colleagues but so I think it is important that men can sort of open up a bit and what's very interesting I mean I've just recently completed a set of workshops in Dublin actually working with PWN Professional Women's Network Dublin where we had men from different companies coming in to the workshops and we were offering them two three hour sessions okay and when the men first came in they were kind of looking at each other they're all from different companies and they're all looking at each other a bit like sizing each other up you know Like, what can I say? What should I say? How open should I be? By the six hour of this six hour workshop kind of series, if you like, they'd opened up a lot and everyone was like much more relaxed. But it was very interesting. I think it does show that we need to get people working together over time to really get them to open up. But the key aha moments were several, really. The first one was that most men acknowledged and realized that they didn't know enough about the challenges and the barriers that the women in their organizations faced. So in the first workshop, which is a three hour workshop separated in by two weeks from the second workshop. In the first workshop, I raised the point that actually, possibly they weren't aware of some of the barriers that their female colleagues faced. And I asked them and there was a lack of awareness. So I said, right, OK, before the next workshop in two weeks time, go and ask your female colleagues what they're experiencing and come back and report what you've learned. OK, that sounds

SPEAKER_01: 11:23

fantastic.

SPEAKER_00: 11:24

Yeah. So in the next session, they came back. having spent some time talking to their female colleagues. And two things came out. Number one was they didn't realize the extent of the challenges and the barriers that women faced, whether that was, you know, kind of the attitudes in the workplace or the fact that women felt that they weren't, you know, kind of that their contributions weren't recognized sufficiently, that they were frustrated about maternity return, you know, all the sort of things that can happen, the barriers that women face. So the first thing was they underappreciated the extent of those barriers, because let's face it, it, the men realized that they didn't face those barriers themselves. The second thing was they realized that actually women felt very strongly about the fact that they still face these barriers and everything was moving slowly. And what they realized from that is that as men who wanted to be allies, they had to step up and do more. Basically, they couldn't just stand back and let things carry on. They'd now realize that because of what they discovered, i.e. that women were frustrated with the slow progress and that there were these barriers that really as male allies, they had to start thinking about, well, how can I make a difference? How can I show up? So that was kind of like one of the big aha moments. And then another aha moment that came up was when we were talking about stereotypes. And there's a little exercise we do where we ask the men to imagine the person described by the following words. So for example, we'll use, imagine a CEO. And of course they all imagine a man, right? Okay. And that's not totally an accurate because only 6% of CEOs globally are women. But the question, of course, arises, does it mean you could ever imagine a CEO being a woman? But there's another one in this series, and this series was actually taken from an advertising campaign done by a company where the lead partner in the advertising agency was distressed by his daughter coming home from school and basically saying, we've learned that daddy's going to work and mummy's stay at home. We thought, oh my God, we cannot have that. How many years

SPEAKER_01: 13:27

How many years

SPEAKER_00: 13:28

ago was this? It was actually not that long ago, actually. I can't remember exactly. Probably about maybe seven, eight years ago. Anyway, so he decided that they were going to run an advertising campaign around this. And so on billboards around London, you had things like, imagine a CEO, is it a man kind of thing. And the one that tripped the men up was, imagine someone crying in the office. And when we had this discussion, of course, they all thought it was a woman. And so we had this discussion then. about whether men could cry and whether men could cry in the office. Because quite a few of the men said they'd seen either women crying in the office or been brought close to tears in the office. But as men, they were horrified by the whole idea that they could be crying. And so this opened up this whole topic about, well, are men in touch with their emotions? Are men able to share vulnerability? And we realized the barriers that men face around that, which they have to show up as tough as knowing all the answers, having no holes in their armor, which is an incredible burden for men to have to deal with. And going back to one of the things that really motivated me to do this work, there's a fantastic quote from Gloria Steinem, the feminist who basically said that men actually can make really good allies because they're not just helping somebody else, they're freeing themselves. And I realized that that's what I was doing and that's what these men were doing. we were freeing ourselves from the stereotypes of being, you know, the typical men that, you know, don't cry, that know all the answers, that reject everything feminine. And so, yeah, so we had some very interesting discussions and aha moments from the men. And just one last one, which I can't resist throwing in. I was telling them about this campaign in the UK run by my great collaborator, friend, Danielle Ephian-Darker, to get men having their fingernails painted. Okay. And there's a whole campaign you can look it up on the internet it's called hard as nails and daniele's actually trained to be a nail therapist to paint people's nails now he started with men because he said men are less fussy about how their nails look uh than women so he's starting off with men but the idea basically is to enable men to get in touch with their feelings of vulnerability so imagine as a man you get your nails painted and then you go to the gym or you go to the pub you know what's going to happen the conversations that are going to start and these men all completely freaked out because they thought i was about to get them to Paint their nails. And they couldn't cope with it. And it was interesting because one of them had said, hey, my daughter came up to me a couple of nights ago and she was wanting to paint my nails. And I sort of, oh, no, you know, I couldn't possibly. And he said, now I've rethought it. He said, I realize there'd be some real value to me having my nails painted because it would show my empathy for the sort of, you know, the challenges that women face. And also it would allow me to step outside of that man box, which says men don't get their nails painted. well, who says that? You know, and why do we say that? And so anyway, go on to the website Hard as Nails. You'll see loads of pictures or Google Daniele. You'll see so many pictures of all these men with their nails painted that the only thing is Daniele's challenged me to have it done. And the only person that's really painted my nails so far is my niece, Lucy, who, you know, I couldn't resist her. She's eight years old saying, you know, Uncle Robert, would you have your nails painted? And of course I did that, you know. So there's the whole question of now, how would I feel going into a client meeting with my nails

SPEAKER_01: 17:01

painted? Yes, very good. Well, or running one of your workshops with your nails painted. I hope next time I see you, Robert, that your nails will be painted. But I love that quote that you mentioned from Gloria Steinem. That brings me back to the whole area of vulnerability. One of the areas that I'm curious about is, you know, what is the resistance from men that you've experienced? Because I think, you know, we talk about the macho culture and things. And, you know, there's a whole load of dark side associated with that. But, you know, we had a therapist on recently who notices a complete difference in the men that come to her and how they come to her than how her female clients come to her because of this shame attached to being vulnerable and all that sort of thing. So what do you think is a way forward to support men to feel more comfortable to open up about their vulnerability?

SPEAKER_00: 18:03

Well, I think the first thing is we have to keep talking about it and exposing it, as it were, as something that we need to be open to. I think part of the challenge is that men don't want to look weak in front of other men or vulnerable in front of other men. And so I think the more that we encourage more men to be open about this, and actually it almost becomes the sign of what I would call a mature man, as it were, that you can be open about your feelings then that will be the way forward. So it was interesting because one of the other things that I was discussing in these workshops is I first went to Denmark about, what, 12 years ago, and I was completely shocked to see men pushing their kids in strollers, sitting in cafes with their kids. There were no women around. There were just men looking after these kids. And I thought, my God, you would never see this in the UK, right? Well, you do occasionally, but

SPEAKER_01: 18:53

I

SPEAKER_00: 18:53

don't see you in the

SPEAKER_01: 18:54

whole cafe load.

SPEAKER_00: 18:55

No, no, no, no, exactly. So what was really interesting was talking to them about it. What they were telling me was actually the definition of a man, the Danish perspective is a man that cares and a man that's prepared to do their part of the caring responsibilities and the household responsibilities. Whereas a lot of men in other cultures are taught to avoid all of that stuff and to leave that to the women. So, so much of this is how we're socialized, but then the expectations we place on each other. So I think what we've got to do is basically redefine what it's means to be a man okay and i think we've got to open up to men this ability to care and this ability to you know kind of be involved with things that involve emotions okay which we've left to the women and i think we've missed out as a result um you know because um if you look at the horrible rates of male depression anxiety suicide etc so much of that comes from the fact that we don't feel we can be open about this stuff we have to man up man up you know that's the thing we have to do and I think it keeps us trapped okay so but I think we're always looking around to see what other men are doing and I think the more men that show up as these more open men men that are more you know healthy if you like in their approach to masculinity and the more we see leaders especially business leaders we need

SPEAKER_01: 20:17

role models don't we

SPEAKER_00: 20:18

well we do and of course the role model thing is very interesting because sometimes you can have role models that let you down you know because for any role model You know, it's tough to be on a pedestal all the time. And so when we have celebrities or footballers or, you know, we can have some, but then you find like sometimes there's little chinks in their armor and then one goes, oh, well, we always knew they weren't really a role model. Whereas actually what we need are more role models that are everyday men, I think. And there's a guy called James Routledge who's just running this group of a thousand men. He wants to build up a group of a thousand men who all are open about their emotions, who are are open to the fact that men need to show up differently and of course if you've got a thousand men then they're encouraging each other and then like where do we go from there we can get to a million we can get to 10 million you know got to get to the tipping

SPEAKER_01: 21:08

point

SPEAKER_00: 21:09

the tipping point exactly yeah thank you Malcolm Gladwell yeah we need to get to that point where it's normalized that men are open about their emotions that it's normalized that men have got caring responsibility and want to do them and and because the real danger is we end up missing out you know we'll get to the end of our lives and we won't have cared for anybody we won't have been open about our emotions we'll be lonely we'll be miserable you know and we've got to head that off and I think what's really interesting is younger generations of men now see that in their fathers and say that's not the way that I want to be you know so I think we have some hope that we might have a more open attitude towards the balance of work and life you know this whole thing about working all the hours that God gave traveling traveling everywhere, never having any time for family life. That's how people used to get to the top. That's how they got to consulting in the days that I started. But now it's a different thing, I think. And I think we have younger people in the workplace who want to work with leaders that acknowledge that a more human approach is one where we balance these things a bit more and that men show up differently. And in fact, actually, we all show up in a sense the same, that we're equally open about our emotions and about all the different responsibilities we have in our lives.

SPEAKER_01: 22:29

How do you feel about the fact that it can change or is changing? Do you feel optimistic?

SPEAKER_00: 22:36

Oh, very much so, yes. I mean, I'm a natural optimist anyway. One of the most influential people I met a couple of years ago was a guy called Victor Purton, who runs the centre for optimism in Australia. And his first question is always, what makes you optimistic? What makes me optimistic these days is the fact that I see people like James Routledge. I see Daniele Fiandaca with his Nails campaign. I see so many other younger men now coming forward. There's a guy in Berlin, Artem Brudi, for example, running men's clubs. I've got a whole long list of men doing this work, which I didn't have 15, 20 years ago. So we're on a trend. We're on a roll. So what we've got to do is get this word out. We've got to get your podcast out to more men, and we've got to get men talking about this you need to have more guests on that are talking about this too I can suggest some men you should have on your podcast and we need to get women talking about it we need to get men talking about it because you know I think women have done huge amounts to develop themselves but looking at men we haven't done enough you know I think we're still you know work in progress

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

yeah I agree and because I've worked with women leaders for many many years and there are times where women have said we're fed up with we're tired of having to keep doing all the work and think about how can I adapt my in this conversation so I get my voice heard or whatever. It is about getting men and women together and men doing their part. I suppose waking up more to it, which is why the work you do is so important because you absolutely are helping men wake up to what actually is going on and what it's like.

SPEAKER_00: 24:13

Right. But then comes the next step, which is very important too, which is to get women and men working together. Okay. And that's the key thing, really. So we awaken men, if you like, to the challenges of the barriers that women face, we awaken men to the privilege, if you like, and the power that they've had. And we also awaken them to what they can do to make a difference. But then what we do is we put them together with women in their organization and basically create gender-balanced environments where everybody can work together and everybody understands each other. And in some of the sessions that I've run, which have been women and men coming together, it's been really interesting because the women will talk And the men have to shut up and listen, right? So the women talk about the issues and the barriers they face, and the men have to listen in those sessions to that. But then the men get to talk about the barriers that they face. And sometimes you'll get a man saying, well, actually, what I get told when I'm going to leave early to pick up my kids from school is why can't your wife do it? Or, you know, like all these other things that men face that actually women don't realize sometimes that men face themselves. So we've got to listen to each other. We've got to be aware of the Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 25:38

One of the barriers we discussed, I think, when we were doing our preparation actually for this call was men feeling threatened by women taking their position. So the whole thing that, well, if women are going to be successful and step up as leaders, that means I might not be successful. have so much of a chance how do you approach that with the men that you work with

SPEAKER_00: 26:02

Well, I mean, certainly in many organizations, they introduce targets for women in leadership because women are woefully underrepresented in leadership. I mean, sometimes it's like 20, 30% in some organizations. So not surprisingly, in order to get action, they put targets in and said, look, you know, by 2030, we're going to have 30 or 40% or whatever it was of women in leadership. Now, of course, because that's different to what it is today, and it's mostly the men in those leadership positions today, the men go, well, hang on a minute, if we're going to get more women in leadership that means less men in leadership what's going to happen to me right okay and that's where the sort of the challenges start but frankly what I've been saying to men is that this is a much needed leveling of the playing field from an organizational point of view you know organizations that are going to thrive need to have more balance in their leadership what you want to be as a man is one of those men that understands this and gets it and has the role you know because the good news is we still want 50% of leaders to be men. It's just that we're coming from 80% to 50%. So there's going to be, in a sense, a reduction over time, or it's going to be much more challenging for the men that don't get it about how they need to change to have those leadership positions of the future. So my message to men is wake up, look at what's happening, think about how you need to change your skill sets, your approach, become an inclusive leader, and become someone who then embraces the change, because that's the way that organisations are going. They want more balance in leadership. There's still a role for you, but you've got to adapt yourself and change to get there. And so that's the message I give, basically.

SPEAKER_01: 27:45

For some people, it will feel very challenging, I guess. And I know one of the challenges men face is that they have a sense of responsibility to be the main bread earners still. Even today, they still have that sense, many men. So that might compromise their feeling of, oh, okay, so I will step aside and let a woman come through.

SPEAKER_00: 28:07

Well, absolutely. I mean, there's no doubt the power of socialization is incredible. I mean, I remember running workshops for men in Italy, in Milan, actually a few years ago. And one of the things that came out there was the very strong socialization that Italian men have to be the breadwinner and their feeling of uselessness if they don't feel that they are the breadwinner. And I think, you know, this is about redefining, okay, what is success? You know, is success always about being a breadwinner? Well, actually, there might be other models of success that you could look at, such as, for example, or getting access to your caring side, which might be another way of looking at success. But the point is that I think men need to be a bit more open to different models of masculinity, of what it means to be a man in the workplace, and need to see that they need to change. And I think we need to change. And organizations need to change too. We need to move away from the old command and control, alpha male type model of leading Towards a leadership where we're focusing more on emotional intelligence, cultural intelligence, etc., things like that. And, you know, as Daniel Goleman says, emotional intelligence can be learned. It's learnable. Cultural intelligence can be learned. It's learnable. So we can all learn how to do this better. So we can compete equally then for jobs in the future. I

SPEAKER_01: 29:28

love what you're saying. It all makes absolute sense. And I kind of live for the day that all that happens, really, that we do let go of that command and control way of looking at things. and have a much more collaborative approach to how we work. And one where people just really enjoy showing up at work. People are really engaged in what they're doing and are treated well. You're going to get much greater levels of performance from people at the end of the day. So it's a win-win moving in that direction.

SPEAKER_00: 29:54

Well, absolutely. And Mary, what we have to recognise now is that levels of engagement are historically quite low. If you looked at the Gallup workplace survey that they did earlier this year, engagement levels globally are 21%. So 21% of employees basically are engaged in their work, which is a shocking statistic. And it's even lower in Europe, actually. It's 13% in Europe. So there's a massive challenge. There's an issue with trust in the workplace. There's a barometer of trust, which shows that trust is low too. And of course, the background we've got is that everyone's worried about the impact of AI. Am I going to have a job? Am I not going to have a job? Our whole swathes of jobs going to disappear because of the impact of AI? Are leaders being open about this? Or are they still being a little bit obfuscating about it? So what does my future hold? And I think in an environment like that, where there's a lack of trust and a lack of engagement, we are seeing challenges. So if we can get leaders to be more open, to be more human, to be more inclusive, we will see changes I think, in that. And we will see employees get more engaged and therefore we'll see companies become more productive and more effective. But we do need a change in leadership because the current state of play in the workplace is frankly unsatisfactory and we need to really move ahead from that.

SPEAKER_01: 31:29

So we're moving really into thinking about changing the system and you do a lot of work with organisations to help them make a business case for Gen to look at what they can realistically do to shift the system. If you were called in by an executive board who were really committed to wanting to get gender equity in their organisation, what would be the steps you would advise them to take?

SPEAKER_00: 31:54

Well, I think the very first step is to be very clear on the why. So why are they doing this? Why is it important to them? And obviously there could be a number of reasons. It could be, for example, that they want to retain women that have been leaving the organization. So to have access to the best talent, it could be, for example, that their customers are increasingly becoming diverse and they need to reflect their customer base, but it's establishing the why this really matters to them. And then I think once they've established the why, we've got to then think about, okay, so how are we going to sort of operationalize achieving some change? Okay. And what does that change look like? How do we motivate? How do we communicate that that change is an needed and how do we push that through the organization and cascade it down? And so those are the sort of key steps. And obviously there needs to be time and money and effort spent on things like training the employees and training the leaders on how to do this differently, how to build an inclusive culture, how to create psychological safety. I mean, in many organizations, for example, if you have an idea that's different to everybody else or you fail at something, you're immediately pilloried. We need to create organizations where, you know, it's okay to fail once maybe. And, you know, like you learn from it and you move forward. So that psychological safety is really important too. So it's understanding what kind of conditions in the organization do we need to create that enables us to build this inclusive environment where we get access to the best talent and we stop losing people that otherwise could really come up with great ideas for us. But it's underpinned by the why this is important for our business and why it's important for our people. why it's important for our leaders.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

Does that include, so bearing in mind our previous conversation, does that include them exploring themselves as leaders and considering what their own leadership style is and where their own biases may be getting in the way as

SPEAKER_00: 33:50

well? Oh, absolutely. I mean, we would ideally like to always start with the senior leadership teams to work with them and then once they can see the difference it makes, that'll increase their appetite to have this done throughout the rest of the firm. But But bear in mind, this is a process that takes time. So changing cultures takes time. It takes money because you've got to bring in people to help you with that culture change. And it takes people's effort and people need to be motivated to do it. So it is something you cannot just have one workshop on and then assume that everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing. It's something you need to continue the communication. You need to continue the effort. I mean, so one of the clients I'm working with now is in year six of their culture change towards to more gender balanced environment. They've realized that it takes that long to move from a culture which is very male dominated to one which is more gender balanced. And they put a lot of effort and spent a lot of money on running workshops for women so that they know how to be better leaders and workshops for men are on how they can support this and how they can be more inclusive leaders too. And then on workshops to bring them together to learn how to work better in a gender balanced environment. I think that sounds

SPEAKER_01: 35:08

really commendable. But it's also commendable that they've invested not just the money, but the time. And they're not trying to rush it through because I think part of the challenge as a fellow consultant is that organisations want a result immediately. They want a quick result. And actually, this is a slow burn kind of change, really.

SPEAKER_00: 35:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 35:28

Because you're creating systemic

SPEAKER_00: 35:30

change. Absolutely. And you can see some changes happening in the shorter term. I mean, so, for example, I coach a lot of the men that go through the workshops with me and I help them put into practice what they've learned on the workshops and you can see as that we're working with them in the six month period after they've been through the workshops we can see what they're doing to make a difference for example they might be sponsoring now a woman that they weren't sponsoring before they might be questioning you know why haven't we got a candidate slate for this new position that includes women for example why is it only men so they're starting to question so you start to see change coming through but in order for it to really systemic change you do need that time and you need a clear vision if you like of where you want to get to with this and of course you know we're living at a time where there's a lot of challenges going back and forth about what this is all about the good news is that organisations in Europe that I'm working with definitely still see the business case and the moral and imperative case too for moving in this direction of more inclusion more balance if you like and I think We will see that continuing for the next few years, which is great.

SPEAKER_01: 36:40

I certainly hope it stays around in Europe and we don't follow what's happened in the States, that's for sure. Let's move on then to have an exploration of your experience on boards. You sit on many boards, women organisation boards, UN Women UK, European Women, for example. What trends or shifts are you seeing or that you hope will make a big difference?

SPEAKER_00: 37:03

Well, I do sit on boards that are women's network boards, as you mentioned. I've also been on the boards of a couple of startups as well, which has been very interesting because those are boards that often include men and you sort of see the difference in attitudes. I think one thing that's very clear to me is it is really beneficial to have women on a board because women typically come at this with different perspectives, different values, sometimes different approach to things, including, for example, risk and important things like that. So I think it is important to have women's voice are on any board, whether it's a women's network board or a business board, as it were, because I think we need that diversity of views. The second thing is what I'm super impressed with. The women that get onto boards, generally speaking, are almost even more brilliant than the men because they've had to work so much harder to get there often. So I think that's the other thing to say, that we do need to open up so that there can be more women on boards, which is part of the reason why I'm on European women on boards, which is trying to push that forward in Europe. I think from my perspective, the other thing is that what we are starting to see is a recognition on boards that while we need to have a business focus, we also need to think about our people. Actually, that talent is incredibly important to many organizations because that's where our ideas come from. That's where our execution lies, as it were. So how do we bring the the best out of our people. I think there's an increasing realization that that is super important. And at a time when it can be so easy to say, well, we just focus on the numbers and we bring in new systems like AI-related systems, et cetera, we still need to be thinking about our people, what our people are concerned about, how we get the best out of them. And I think that's where I'm seeing boards focusing now. There's a much greater realization that we We need business ideas and we need to develop the business, but we can't do that without getting the best out of our people.

SPEAKER_01: 39:18

Well, do you know what? I mean, both you and I have been doing this for a long time. So part of my thing is we've been hammering on about the people side of things for a long, long time. So thank goodness, finally, boards are starting to open up to actually, we don't look after our people. We're not going to have a business. I mean, at the end of the day, you're not, are you? No,

SPEAKER_00: 39:36

no, exactly. And it's quite interesting because even organisations like... good old FedEx, Fred Smith, had this motto of people, service, profit. And what he meant by that was you have to take care of your people because if you took care of your people, they give your clients better service. If you gave your clients better service, that would result in a profit. And I think Richard Branson had a similar kind of idea, which is all about your people first. And I think more and more boards are realising that is the way it's got to be.

SPEAKER_01: 40:03

Thank goodness for that. So let's just finally then think about some wisdom and action and takeaways that you can offer to our listeners today. So if you were someone who, you know, someone who's a male ally, they are supportive of women, but they want to do it better, what would you pass on to them? What sort of gifts or insights could you pass on to them?

SPEAKER_00: 40:27

Well, I think number one, you know, work on your awareness of the issues that women face, both by talking to women in your organisation, but also there's lots of really amazing books that you can read about the challenges that women face. I mean, The Authority Gap by Marianne Saigar is a fantastic book. It's a fantastic book that explains why women aren't taken as seriously as men and what we can do about it. to me, to them, to the organization, then as a leader, that's really kind of like what I should be trying to do. And then, of course, having a clear idea of where I can make a difference. So, you know, can I sponsor a woman? Can I mentor a woman? One of the things I've done, actually, which has been remarkable for me has been to be reverse mentored by a younger woman. Okay. And so that achieved two things. I mean, first, different gender, secondly, different generation, which was phenomenal in terms of the insights that she gave to me. to learn more about how I lead and manage, et cetera. So I thoroughly recommend that. But it is ultimately about, okay, how can we show up? How can we take action to make a difference? I think that's the key thing. And how do we hold ourselves accountable? Because like nobody's watching half the time, right? Okay. When we're doing this stuff and it's so tempting after you've been on a workshop or a course to go back to the office and then business as usual takes over and nothing gets done, right? Of the things you said you'd do. So I think one of the key things that I ask of all of the men, anybody that comes to the workshop with me is, What are you going to commit to and how are you going to hold yourself accountable for actually doing what you've said you're going to do? Find yourself an accountability buddy or find some way of doing it. So, for example, in Dublin, we're coming back in six months' time with the men that have been through those workshops to ask, okay, what have you done? What impact have you had? And then how are we going to inspire the next cohorts to do the same?

SPEAKER_01: 42:43

Great. And for the women that are listening, what words of wisdom have you got to pass on to them?

SPEAKER_00: 42:49

Well, I think one of the things that I was talking about to quite a lot of the women that have worked in some of the sessions we've run is to basically be open to sharing your experiences with men who are asking like, so what's it like for you in the workplace? Which cannot always be easy. Sometimes women are not sure how much to share about what they've been through. But I think the more that they can be open about what they've experienced, that's really good. I think also Maybe to offer to mentor a man. If you've got men like me that want to be mentored by women, to actually mentor a man can be really useful because then you're starting to have an impact and maybe changing the way that men think about this too. And I think this last point really is about, let's work together to try and build this. I mean, yes, women for years have been facing these barriers, facing these challenges. I think we're now seeing that men have those challenges and barriers with different ones. too but by working together understanding each other better we can actually you know kind of build a more gender balanced and inclusive environment and I think it's that working together bit that we need so you know remember I think for women specifically men do worry about making mistakes so if we do make mistakes be a little gentle with us help us learn how to not make the same mistake next time around and hopefully we'll then you know be working together on getting to a better place

SPEAKER_01: 44:14

I think it's the coming together that is really crucial isn't on Robert, it's been such an enlightening conversation. I've learnt loads yet again and I'm sure our listeners will be the same. Where can people find out more about your work or connect with you?

SPEAKER_00: 44:31

Well, I think the principal place is really LinkedIn. So if you find me on LinkedIn, Robert Baker, Potential Talent Consulting, have a look at what I'm posting, connect with me and let's develop a conversation there. That's probably the principal place or come along to one of the events I'm speaking at, you'll probably see those posted on LinkedIn too. I tend to live on LinkedIn, Mary, so that's the place to find

SPEAKER_01: 44:55

me. Okay. Eats, breathes, sleeps, LinkedIn. Okay. Wonderful. Robert, it has been a real joy talking to you today and you've helped us learn so many different elements around bringing equity and bringing it alive, actually. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 45:11

No, it's a pleasure, Mary, and look forward to keeping the conversation going.

SPEAKER_01: 45:14

Yes, absolutely. Before we wrap up, I I want to share something with you. Do you ever feel like your confidence isn't really the issue, but wish you could strengthen your ability to deal with things that keep chipping away at it? The bias, the double standards, the pressure to prove yourself, to name just a few. That's exactly why I created Exploding the Confidence Myth, a three-month program for women leaders who are ready to change that story. It combines one-to-one coaching, group coaching, and a powerful in-person workshop. The next program starts at the workshop taking place on the 7th of November at the Connacht Rooms in Holborn, London. Past participants have described it as validating, supportive and stretching. They've become more visible, raised their value, increased their financial return and broken through patterns that have held them back. But perhaps most importantly, they've gained a deeper sense of okayness with who they are, recognising they already have something valuable to offer. If this resonates with you or you know someone who would benefit, you'll find all the details in the show notes I'd love you to join us. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation. So let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.