Episode 18 - Baby Loss and Belonging - Compassion in Action at Work with Shelley Kay

What happens when the loss that shapes your life is the one the world rarely talks about? In this deeply human conversation released to mark Baby Loss Awareness Week (9–15 October, UK), Shelley Kay—Talent & Development Business Partner and co-lead of the Gender Perspectives Network at the Adecco Group—shares her personal experience of five miscarriages and how she transformed private heartbreak into advocacy at work.

Shelley and I explore why baby loss remains shrouded in silence in many organisations, what that silence costs people trying to show up at work, and the practical, compassionate steps leaders and colleagues can take—listening without fixing, person-led support, flexible workload, and sensitive language. Shelley also describes the initiatives she helped seed inside Adecco: resources for managers and colleagues, signposting to specialist support, a “Holding Hands” network, and a memorial tree programme—simple acts that signal belonging.

If your organisation wants to move from good intentions to real care, this episode offers a roadmap.

Content note: this episode includes discussion of pregnancy and baby loss. UK support: The Miscarriage Association:  info@miscarriageassociation.org.uk , Sands helpline@sands.org.uk and Tommy’s mailbox@tommys.org

If you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. So my question today is a sensitive one. What happens when the loss that shapes your life is the one the world rarely talks about? And how can workplaces step up to support the hidden grief of baby loss? Pregnancy and baby loss is a sensitive topic that isn't just a personal tragedy, it's a workplace issue too. It affects women and men, their confidence, their presence and how their able to show up at work and yet because it's rarely discussed many organisations miss the chance to offer the compassion and support that people really need at this time. My guest today is Shelley Kay. Shelley has spent over 30 years at the ADECO group where her career has been rooted in empowering people and fostering inclusive cultures. She is a talent and development business partner as well as a co-lead of the Gender Perspectives Employee Network. But it's her personal journey that brings her to us today. Shelley has experienced the heartbreak of five miscarriages and rather than stay silent, she's chosen to turn her experience into advocacy. She's created a support network within ADECO to ensure others don't have to navigate baby loss alone and to open up conversations that are so often hidden in the workplace. In doing so, Shelley is helping to shape a culture where empathy, equity and belonging are lived Shelley, thank you so much for being here today and for your courage in speaking up about this topic that touches so many people and for leading a conversation that so many organisations could learn from. A warm welcome to you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So, Shelley, I realise this is a sensitive topic, so thank you for speaking with such courage today. But could you tell us a bit about your personal journey and your experience of baby loss and pregnancy loss.

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

Absolutely and listen I think you know for me enough time has passed since I was going through the journey that I am able to speak about it and I think it I feel it's incumbent upon me to use a platform that I'm occasionally given to talk about it because I think if you're in the middle of going through it it's much more difficult. I like many people got married thought you know it's just a matter of I decide when I'm having children and how that happens. I want and got pregnant relatively quickly for the first time and then I went to my first scan which everybody gets so excited about this was the point we were literally planning how we were going to tell everybody and when we were going to tell everybody and then everything went wrong so there was no heartbeat as there's a lot of people's experience of these things and literally it felt like the world had come crashing down around us because you feel every emotion you feel disappointed you feel the loss of everything that you're already planning you feel an embarrassment even which sounds crazy but it is you think the thing that should be so easy and natural to do we can't do and it was just the first one was absolutely a devastating time and I you and I had a conversation recently where we talked about the perspective of you know the other the half and you know is a man's perspective and I actually do remember at the time my mum saying to me well you're very lucky you've got a wonderful husband you'll see each other through this and I remember thinking the problem is when I look in his eyes it reflects the heartbreak that I'm feeling so it kind of to a degree can push you in opposite directions because you probably haven't got the capacity to support each other at that time yes it has impact on your relationship massive impact massive impact and so we when on and you know I guess we'll talk about it as we go further on the conversation all of these platitudes that people give you at the time and all of the things that they say some helpful lots not so helpful and we went on and listened I am definitely one of the lucky ones because I am very happy to say that I now have three actually adult children at this point of the game but in between so I had one miscarriage and then I had my oldest daughter I then we thought okay well kind of the first one it was one of those things you know if you people had explained even the medical profession and said that your body is not used to being pregnant and therefore it's quite common to the first pregnancy to be miscarried so I thought it would be standalone in that situation and I then went on and had a further two miscarriages after her so that was okay this feels like a completely different deal and actually at the time I remember going to see my gynecologist and he did a number of tests and said, there's no reason that we can see for this. And he actually referred me on to somebody else because he said, there's another guy here I want to recommend you to see who is a bit of an expert in this. And I remember walking through the door and it was crazy because he actually, the first thing that he said to me is, I have no idea why you've come to see me because I highly respect the original gynecologist that you see. So why would you choose a second opinion? Okay, put the brakes on that. I came because he told me to come to you. So you feel like you're fighting when it shouldn't be difficult. It's also, and to be fair, I'm not sure if it's still a situation, but certainly at that time, you had to have three miscarriages before there would be any referrals made to a consultant. And that's a lot of heartbreak in between to get to that point, just to be dismissed as it's a natural thing, it happens. It is. At that point, actually, one of the things that they identified was that I had a low level of progesterone that I was producing. So when I got pregnant again I actually had injections every week for 20 weeks and I had my son so I had a successful pregnancy then after I always had him we actually decided to take a little bit of a break because it had already been quite a journey to get to that point but we always knew that ideally we wanted a third and I then got pregnant went to the doctors great can I have the injections again we don't do them anymore

SPEAKER_01: 6:55

gosh what what time scale are we talking here because so this is the NHS that you were going to

SPEAKER_00: 7:00

So this is, yes, this is the NHS. So Molly was at this point, she would have been about five or six and Louis we'd had three years later. So it wasn't a huge amount of time, but I suddenly felt like that net that was to catch me underneath and to support me during those would be taken away. So there was no discussion of these are some alternatives or this is anything else that you can do. It was just, it's no longer there. And I went on to have, Another miscarriage, utterly devastating again. I thought, why am I putting myself through this? And am I being greedy, right? I have two amazing children. Maybe the third is not meant to be. But something kept pushing us forward. And I got pregnant again. And actually, that was the most traumatic miscarriage that I had, because I'd won a work trip, an incentive. And I was traveling to New York, and I traveled from Manchester down to London, and stayed over over the next day we were getting a flight from London to New York got on the flight to New York and we were sat waiting to take off and I felt something wasn't right went to Lou found I was bleeding and I'm like I am literally so far from home and this is happening and what on earth do I do so putting a call to my husband putting a call to the doctor and they basically said you need to get off that plane so literally then chaos ensues because they then worry about why somebody would get on a plane and get off a plane again so they then had to do a whole scan of the whole plane for all of the luggage in the meantime I'm taken off the plane I then just said okay well I'm going to get a train I'm going home no no no we can't let you go because if you're bleeding there's risk there we couldn't just let you go so they then told me that they were calling an ambulance and I was going to have to be transported to a local hospital and I'm literally at this point now in the back of an ambulance trying to get hold of my husband again not sure where I'm being taken And he just says, when I eventually get hold of him, just go, I will find you. So I get taken to a hospital. I don't know where I am. And I'm waiting there for them to do a scan. And at this point, I'm thinking every time I've been in this situation, my husband's been next to me. And I'm now kind of in the middle of nowhere without him. And God bless him, because he just drove down to London, pulled into the airport. Where would you take somebody if they were taken ill? And just came and found the hospital and found me and arrived miraculously as they were about to scan me.

SPEAKER_01: 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:32

Scam me. Yes, I then again lost the pregnancy. They wanted to keep me there, but we kind of fought all that we could and just said, no, just let me go home. I will go into hospital because after each one, you have to have a DNC procedure because obviously you wouldn't lose, you know, as they call them, the products of that pregnancy naturally.

SPEAKER_01: 9:55

That in itself sounds unpleasant.

SPEAKER_00: 9:57

The whole thing was unpleasant. Actually, what I really noticed with that loss as opposed to the others because obviously time had now passed by and so this is at this point I'm kind of nine years into my attempt to form my family is that it then was new forms which said that you had to tell you what they were doing after they'd done the D&C with the Prodents and how they would dispose of them because there'd been legal cases with the NHS and I was like I do not want to know this this is all traumatic you know I don't need the detail and just that whole process was so unbelievably traumatic just being away from home all of that uncertainty thinking how on earth am I putting myself through all of this again so that one took a little a little while to get over and and I guess we'll talk about some of the things that happen when you're in these situations and and particularly you know the NHS is amazing but there's definitely not perfection in those situations so actually I ended up going to um another consultant because the one I had had retired by that point and I told him the whole sorry tale and he said well we'll give you progesterone injections so I said but they stopped doing them they went oh they called something else now oh my goodness so all of that time I could have had them and he was amazing and he said listen we will scan you so early on so the second I found out I was pregnant I was pretty much scanned I started having these injections he carried them on for a longer time and actually gave me twice as many. And I then had my third and final baby, who is now 19 years old, but still gets called a baby. And that was 10 years, you know, 10 years of highs and lows. And I think the thing that maybe doesn't get talked about as much is what it takes away from you, even when you have a successful pregnancy, because I didn't enjoy any of it. And until that baby was in my my arms each time all I did was fret and worry and have appointments and scans and and it takes all of the joy out of those moments

SPEAKER_01: 12:11

I really get I mean 10 years to build your family but yes I really get that sense of having had those miscarriages the anxiety that you must have been carrying through each of your successful pregnancies where you did produce a child and produce your family it just sounds the whole thing sounds traumatic yeah to me you So even when you're pregnant and your child is about to be born, you're still going to be holding on to that anxiety from what your past experience was.

SPEAKER_00: 12:39

Absolutely. All the time, you know, when, when after you start feeling movements, but you know, you know, if there's a day when the baby is quiet and you don't feel the movement or before the movements start happening, it's like, is everything okay? And, and literally my heart was in my mouth most of the time. And I didn't, I, I, I'm not an anxious person and I just stress the whole way through each pregnancy. I

SPEAKER_01: 13:00

can, well, imagine I also get a sense of how the change in language the impact of that that the progesterone injections were called something else if that had been if the person who'd said oh we don't do those anymore had known they were called something else then you know that could potentially have saved you those miscarriages and

SPEAKER_00: 13:20

how simple is it really and you know I was lucky enough that I had private medical insurance so I saw consultants on a private basis when I needed to. If I'd been purely on the NHS, I don't know if those things would have been made available to me. And there was just, there was so much language around, this is normal. Well, I think all of that trauma can never be normal. It's a huge loss. Yeah, it's an absolute loss. And I think it's taken quite a long time for everybody to start recognising that and the fact that actually some amazing changes have been made more recently in terms of the advocacy for pregnancy loss certificates for people who have lost pregnancies before 24 weeks because after 24 weeks it would have to have been classed as a stillborn so you could still register a birth but you wouldn't do so previously if you'd had a pregnancy loss so therefore there was nothing to market nothing to kind of give you a sense of something that was now isn't so you know those those jumps have been made the jumps that have been made that the Employment Rights Bill is going to include bereavement leave for people who experience baby loss before 24 weeks. You know, again, that's going to be a huge thing. It won't come until, I think... And when is that coming in? 2027, I think, by the time it lands. So unfortunately, it's still a little way off. But you know what? It's a great thing because, again... It's a step in the right direction. We'll talk about some of the things that businesses can do and organisations can do, but it is a step in the right direction. In real giving it the gravitas that it needs as opposed to normalising. It's just one of those things.

SPEAKER_01: 15:07

Okay. Well, you mentioned workplaces and you mentioned what goes on in organisations. So let's move on to that. And I mean, the first thing I'd like to explore is the silence that goes on. And from your perspective, why do you think baby loss remains an area that's so rarely discussed in workplaces?

SPEAKER_00: 15:25

I think people feel uncomfortable. I think people worry about it triggering, which it absolutely can do I think sometimes people think it's not a conversation for the office or for the workplace I always remember when I was first involved in the the gender perspectives employee resource group and we started to talk about so the reason that we managed to start talking about it is my friend and colleague Helen Tomlinson who was running the ERG at the time had asked me to get involved and she'd said to me would you come on board and help get involved in some of the things I a lot of the messages that we were doing, particularly around women's health. And I said, I will, but I'd really like to be able to be in a position to talk about miscarriage and pregnancy loss because nobody talks about it. And she said, that's a great idea. And that's where it all started from. And I wrote a piece that would go into some internal comms. And somebody said to me at the time, can we use those words? Should we use those words? When you talk about baby loss, pregnancy loss, when you talk about miscarriage people see dead babies and that's not good I was like wow is is this really how people think and and do we have to be so careful and not supporting the people who need it it advocating for them giving them a voice creating a safe and vulnerable space that we're shying away from it because of the language and it really shocked me

SPEAKER_01: 16:54

yeah there's something there about oh we've got to look after the people who haven't experienced the baby loss because it might be upsetting for them while not attending to the people who have experienced it and the distress that they may have experienced

SPEAKER_00: 17:08

and listen we always where possible we'll put a trigger warning on something that we're doing so if we are sending out communication we'll put a trigger on so if somebody is currently pregnant or trying to get pregnant or has been through baby loss and therefore finds it difficult to read and engage with it or listen to something that we might be doing if it's a recording then absolutely we should be doing it but we shouldn't be shying away from it because that's doing a disservice to the people that really need that support.

SPEAKER_01: 17:35

Let's explore that a bit because what do you think is the effect of the silence on women and men in their ability to show up at work fully when there is this wall of silence?

SPEAKER_00: 17:45

I think that's, I think the answer's in the question. You can't show up fully. You can't show up fully even if you're getting the support is the truth. If you are dealing with something so big in your personal life, I am a huge believer, we all exist outside of the nine to five. or the hours that we work. And if an organisation is going to have a true sense of belonging and wants their people to have a sense of belonging, then we have to embrace everything about that person. And that is the good, the bad and the ugly. Everything that's going on with them, because that makes them who they are. That makes them the colleague, the individual that we want to work alongside. And at the end of the day, people want to work in an organisation where they have that sense of belonging, where they have somebody who recognises the things that they go through because we're all going through something at some point in our lives aren't we and I think we need to be able to hold up those people you know when they're going through that because that enables them to turn up that enables them to give of themselves as much as they can give at any given time I

SPEAKER_01: 18:50

really hear that and so what's running through my head is there is often an awkwardness because of our own anxiety around how to engage with people who maybe have suffered a baby loss what are some of the things that you should or shouldn't do in terms of being appropriate and being supportive as a colleague

SPEAKER_00: 19:10

I think people by and large always have good intent and I always think that if you if you get it wrong but do it for the right reason then hopefully people will always give you grace in those situations but I think there's and whether we talk about baby loss or whether you're talking about anything that somebody's going through I think the first thing to do is just to listen to somebody And I think sometimes we have to recognise that sometimes we listen with the intention of replying and of giving a response and giving an answer and being somebody who gives solutions. And you probably can't give anybody solutions in those situations. People will give grace if the intent is considered to be good. And we just need to make sure that when we say that we're going to listen to somebody, that we do just that. It's not about giving them a piece of advice. It's not necessarily about platitudes it's about creating a safe space for somebody to land of just I'm here for you. How are you feeling? What's happening with you? What's going on? What are you finding difficult at the moment? What do you need from me? Do you need anything from me? If you need to talk, I'm here to listen. If something changes that you need something else from me, if I can give any support, is there any work I can help you pick up to take a little bit off your shoulders? Those are the things that help people and I think like anything we shouldn't be deciding who somebody is and what they need based on our own personal experience, our experience of somebody else. You know, my friend needed me to help them with that and to talk to them about that and to offer that advice. So therefore you must need the same thing. Everybody is an individual. So we just need to be able to say, I'm here to listen and give you anything that I can in this situation. And I recognise that you're going really through something at the moment.

SPEAKER_01: 21:06

So I really hear the importance of being person-centered because it's not a one-size-fits-all it's being sensitive to that individual and what they need absolutely and you know

SPEAKER_00: 21:17

don't interrupt give somebody the time you know the whole piece around you know active listening is to say something is there anything else but what else make sure you give them the opportunity to kind of express everything one of the situations that i experienced and it was after my first miscarriage and it was definitely i I know done with good intent was um I came back into the office I had a few days off I can't remember how long I took off and nobody said anything well I felt like I'd grown a second head and I know that they had been worded she'll get upset you mustn't refer to it don't mention it just let her come in and get on with her work with good intention but actually it had the absolute opposite effect because I then thought I've been through something huge I feel like it's written all over my face and yet nobody's saying anything. So that just felt awkward and comfortable. You know, I just, it's those really small moments that mean so much to people. You know, you don't have to talk. I just want you to know that I care and I'm here to listen as and when you want to.

SPEAKER_01: 22:25

Great advice there. So for everyone listening who's maybe supporting someone going through baby loss, that is really, really useful advice that you've just shared there. Thank you. So let's move on then to talking a bit more about your return to work and putting a workplace lens on it we've already we're already touching on it now but for managers and leaders what do you think is the most important thing they need to know in supporting a colleague through baby loss

SPEAKER_00: 22:50

it is about the ability to listen to see what somebody needs to see if they need some time can you take any of the workload off them for a short amount of time do they think that they can cope but I think it's also so yeah I think it's also important not to give some of the impression that you think they can't cope. So that whole idea of being person led, let the person lead you as to what they need and then check body language and check how somebody's getting on. So just kind of some quiet support can be really big and just kind of follow their lead of what they need.

SPEAKER_01: 23:27

I'm going to move us on now because obviously one of the things that I think is wonderful about the conversations I have on this podcast is out of adversity, something incredible happens. So you went through the miscarriages that you had and you had the loss that you had. But as a result, you then became an advocate for opening up this conversation. And you mentioned that you were invited by Helen Tomlinson to join the ERG and to get involved. Tell us a bit more about how you got that network set up and how you got the conversation opened in a deco.

SPEAKER_00: 24:05

So a deco for the last... sort of couple of years. We've very much been on an ED&I journey and sort of making sure that we increase the sense of belonging that people have in the organisation. So we set up a number of ERGs and the gender one is focused on anything which is gender associated. So obviously the conversation about pregnancy loss and baby loss has sort of sat quite nicely within some of the things that we're doing. So one of the first things that we did was we did, because we do inclusion brunches, alternate weeks for the different ERGs set up so we had one probably once every couple of months for the gender perspectives ERG and as it came up to October in October there is Baby Loss Awareness Week which always takes place so I think that one is the 9th to the 15th of October for this year it changes slightly each year so as a part of that we did an inclusion brunch which is a teams based webinar that people within the organisation can join and I told my lived experience, my story and I shared that with people and we also sort of started opening up the conversation for other people to get involved in it. We shared some statistics around pregnancy loss and how common it is. I think it's something like there's an estimated 250,000 miscarriages and pregnancy losses experienced in the UK each year and it's I think one in five women that it experience it. So we were hoping to open up that wall of silence and create opportunities. And then very quietly, people have come forward within the business to myself and to my colleagues to say, that's me too. I've been through that. And I also felt that I didn't have a voice. I wouldn't have known where to go. We have other initiatives across the business. So we have the ADECO group talk, which is where if somebody feels they need a conversation that they can reach out to a number of people who will have aligned themselves with different topics one of which is pregnancy loss to say is this something that i can have a conversation with so i would have a conversation with anybody who came forward and just give them the space to have the conversation share my experience as well because i think sometimes when you hear other people have been through it it helps you to know you're not alone that's a really important thing and so we've continued to recognize it as a minimum on that once a year basis around Baby Loss Awareness Week. A number of my colleagues across the business also wanted to get involved in the conversation. We've been trying to find other ways to open the conversation up and to create the right kind of spaces. We tried originally that there was a call that people could join once a month if they wanted to talk but I think they really are quite private moments and depending on where you are in your journey you might not be prepared to talk in front of a group of people so we then actually found a way of doing it um on a fever engage page which is you know an internet based page that we have set up that we've called the holding hands network because that's what you need at that time somebody to hold your hand and we then on that um page share the resources that we've created so we've created resources um for the manager and for the colleague around what a miscarriage is um what somebody might experience if they're going through that sharing some advice in terms of what to say and perhaps what not to say unfortunately people sometimes say the wrong things in in those moments um so giving advice on that also signposting to the various um organizations and websites where people can get support and help so we've created those resources in there we also then share any stories around and things that happen so around the um the pregnancy loss certificates around the fact that the legislation is hopefully changing in terms of bereavement leave for losses and so we share that and we create the opportunity for people to join us what we're trying to build as a community within the workspace for people to get involved know where they can find support and they can find support when they need it because you don't always need it and it's not always the right moment but I suppose creating those resources around it One of the other initiatives that we've set up is we have initiative, which is a forest in Scotland where trees are planted and we plant them for a number of reasons across our business. But one of the things that we now do is we give people an opportunity to recognise when they've experienced a loss, recent or historic, and have a tree planted in the name of that pregnancy and to provide sort of a memorial opportunity for somebody if they want to do that. So we're on a journey that we will continue on that journey and hopefully we'll continue to find ways in which to help people, support them, recognise what they've been through, hold their hand as they go through it. But it has been a real honour to be able, as part of the organisation, even if I've helped one person, to be able to have that conversation or feel some support in a difficult moment, then it's been worth sharing every element of my own story.

SPEAKER_01: 29:38

I hear the honour and I hear how touching it is to be in that network and to be supporting and the whole idea of having a memorial for those lost lives that otherwise would maybe not have gone and recognised in past years. So to have that, it just sounds very sensitive and very, very supportive. What has been the impact on the culture at ADECO of running a network like this?

SPEAKER_00: 30:04

I think it sits as part of the larger piece that we're doing across our all our ED&I agenda but I think the impact is that people know in the organisation how much they matter outside of the 9 to 5 and they know that even if they don't show up as their best self on any particular day because of what they're going through that there is a network to support them and there is a grace that exists within the organisation to support them because on the other days we turn up and we're amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 30:37

And from your perspective, if someone is tuning in today from an organisation that doesn't have this type of community or support network, what do you think are the key steps an organisation needs to take to better support people that have gone through baby loss?

SPEAKER_00: 30:53

I think it's about finding what's right within each organisation. And I guess, you know, it depends on the size of an organisation in terms of what they're able to achieve. But I think the heart of it starts with creating spaces for conversations with normalising conversations with sharing communication about how to support somebody and maybe what not to say because we've got to be really careful about not saying the wrong thing in those moments because those are the things that have massive impact on people and it's I think I always start out very happy to share how I'm feeling on any given subject but I guess if I don't feel the openness to hear me that makes me close down and I think lots of other people will be in the same position so I think organisations just to try and share resources around what support there is and that's not necessarily about you know the sick leave or the sick pay or those kinds of things it's about there are people here who will listen and will support and will hear what you need in this moment and be there for you yes it's the emotional support is what I'm

SPEAKER_01: 32:05

hearing absolutely and how does this work connect with the broader conversation around equity, inclusion and belonging, Shelley? I

SPEAKER_00: 32:14

think all of it, you know, we're all a mixture of all different experiences. You know, everybody's lived experience is different to some of the things that they're going through. You know, we have got five ERGs that exist across, as I say, there is gender, there is disability, mental health, faith, ethnicity. So all of these topics make up the rich network of people that sit within our organisation or any organisation. And I think it all comes back to the thing that I said early on, which is that sense of belonging and that sense of existing outside of the work itself. And I think that people, you know, we're a recruitment organisation, so it's all about the idea of, you know, placing people into work and giving people meaningful work. And I think this is part of meaningful work, which is where you get to do the work, but you also get to be yourself And that has to be around really creating equity where we give people what they need to be their best selves on any given day.

SPEAKER_01: 33:16

And how do you think the work that you've done and are doing opens doors to talk about other topics that are undiscussable in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00: 33:25

I think hopefully it does. I think, you know, sometimes we will kind of go there on topics which might surprise people that you're discussing in the workplace. One of the things that we're doing because Baby Loss Awareness falls in October, which is the same time as we talk about menopause at that time of the year. And for menopause awareness, one of the topics that we're going to do this year is we're going to be talking about menstrual health because actually it affects fertility and it affects pregnancy loss. It affects, obviously it's connected with menopause also. So I guess some people might think that's a surprising topic to talk about at work, but actually we are quite a heavily dominant female workforce within the ADECO group and we should be talking about it. There should be no subject that's off the table and if it helps one person by knowing they're not alone in those moments then create the spaces to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01: 34:19

What comes to mind is often the analogy of organisations being like machines is often used as a metaphor and yet for me what I'm hearing so strongly in this conversation and in many of the conversations I've had on this podcast is that organisations are just large collections of human beings and there's a real need to put the humanness and the human being at the centre of the organisation. If you want performance, it's not about oiling the machine and, you know, looking after it as if it's a machine. It's actually, we're talking about people here who are human beings with human needs. Exactly that. OK, so we're moving on to the conclusion of our conversation. So there's a couple of questions I've got to ask you that I think are going to be lovely as sort of final summing up reflections. For someone currently experiencing baby loss, what message would you want them to hear today? Be not alone.

SPEAKER_00: 35:13

Feel that you can advocate for yourself and seek out the support that you need. Don't be shy about expressing how you feel because you're entitled to feel how you feel in that moment. And there is nobody that can tell you that what you are seeking is unreasonable or unnecessary. But hopefully find safe supporters, people around you who will create that space for you and perhaps if you are struggling to advocate for yourself in the workplace around what you need if you are on a fertility journey or you are just experiencing loss then perhaps find somebody who is a supporter who will help you advocate for yourself in those moments but don't don't be shy of it you're you are entitled to be supported in these in these moments and and in what is absolutely bereavement and grief

SPEAKER_01: 36:05

thank you and are there any organizations particularly that you would recommend say say you're working in a smaller business or an organization that doesn't have the support that adeko has are there any organized charities or support organizations you would recommend people could reach out to

SPEAKER_00: 36:22

yeah there are a number that are excellent so one of the ones that we work with quite closely is the miscarriage association and we've actually signed up to their pregnancy loss pledge which means that as an organization we have pledged to show the advocacy within our business to support people who are going through baby loss and pregnancy loss and to show that we are committed to providing that safe space and the resources around supporting it. And there's a number of organisations that have also signed that pledge. We'd love to see a situation where everybody signed up to a pledge to support. SANS are also excellent, but the Miscourage Association, a lot of the resources that sit on their website. So there's other lived experience there. There's also some great templates around documentation that can be used and advice for organisations on it so it's a great resource to go to.

SPEAKER_01: 37:13

So that links to my final question actually which is what is the most important step an organisation can take? I'm hearing one of the steps is to contact the Miscarriage Association or use the resources there but as an organisation if you're thinking about being more sensitive and more aware around miscarriage and baby loss what would be the most important first step?

SPEAKER_00: 37:36

I think in finding a those resources and i guess finding the right way for your business to find individuals across the business who might be interested in creating a network creating support being somebody perhaps if they somebody needs a listening ear um and helping advise and support into creating those spaces for people great thank you so much and shelly how can people connect with you i think if i'm on linkedin and it's i'm also available at shelly.k at a deco group

SPEAKER_01: 38:07

So if people want to reach out to find out about your experiences and maybe for some mentoring or anything, you'd be available for that?

SPEAKER_00: 38:15

Absolutely. And I'm more than happy to share links to the resources that we've created as a business to support on this particular topic and just sharing the journey that we've been on in more detail.

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

That's fantastic and very generous of you. Shelley, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a really sensitive but important conversation, I believe. Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about it. Before we wrap up, I want to share something with you. Do you ever feel like your confidence isn't really the issue, but wish you could strengthen your ability to deal with things that keep chipping away at it? The bias, the double standards, the pressure to prove yourself, to name just a few. That's exactly why I created Exploding the Confidence Myth, a three-month programme for women leaders who are ready to change that story. It combines one-to-one coaching, group coaching and a powerful in-person workshop The next programme starts at the beginning of November, with the workshop taking place on the 7th of November at the Connaught Rooms in Holborn, London. Past participants have described it as validating, supportive and stretching. They've become more visible, raised their value, increased their financial return and broken through patterns that have held them back. But perhaps most importantly, they've gained a deeper sense of okayness with who they are, recognising they already have something valuable to offer. If this resonates with you or you know someone who would benefit, you'll find all the details in the show notes. I'd love you to join us. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart. Thank you.