Episode 19 - Menopause at Work: Helen Tomlinson on Culture Change

Released the week of World Menopause Day (18 October), this episode features Helen Tomlinson, the UK’s first Menopause Employment Champion. She shares why midlife isn’t a decline—it’s a power stage—and how employers can move from token gestures to real culture change. 

What happens when a musical-theatre dream becomes a mission to transform workplaces for millions of women? Helen Tomlinson—Head of Inclusion at Adecco and the UK’s first Menopause Employment Champion—has used her voice to shift policy, challenge stigma and help organisations get practical about women’s health.

In this conversation, Helen shares her unconventional career path and the people-first thread that runs through it—from recruitment leadership to national advocacy. We explore the biggest misconceptions about menopause (hint: brain fog outranks hot flushes), why “policy PDFs” aren’t enough, and her four pillars of cultural change: education, allyship (and advocacy), lived experience and leadership. Helen also explains how inclusive, intergenerational cultures support midlife women to thrive, and why self-care and lifestyle changes are as critical as any workplace intervention.

We cover:

• Why midlife can be your most productive, purpose-filled season
• How to build psychologically safe spaces for male allies to learn and help
• Practical steps for menopause action plans that actually change behaviour
• Connecting inclusion with employability so more women over 50 can (re)enter work with confidence

Connect with Helen on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-tomlinson-4a954211/

If this resonates, check out my programme Exploding the Confidence Myth—details in the show notes.

If you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. What happens when a musical theatre dream morphs into a mission to change workplace culture for women across the UK? Well my guest today is the phenomenal Helen Tomlinson, a woman whose career is as dynamic as she is. From her early ambition to light up the stage, Helen has become a force for equity, well-being and systemic change in the world of work. Now head of inclusion and then at ADECO, she also serves as the UK's first government menopause employment champion, using her voice to challenge and influence national policy and challenge stigma around midlife women at work. Helen sits on the board of ProAge, is an ambassador for wellbeing of women and has held senior operational roles in recruitment and talent. But what makes her different and makes her truly stand out is her absolute passion, charisma an unshakable belief that midlife isn't a decline, it's a power stage. In this episode we're going to talk about her unconventional journey, what it takes to truly shift workplace culture and why inclusion is everyone's business, not just a department's. So whether you're navigating your own leadership path, rethinking how your workplace supports women or just need a dose of inspiration, I think that Helen is going to have this in spades for us today and I'm so excited to speak to her. So hello Helen, thank you so much for being here. Hello, it's an absolute pleasure to be with you today Mary. Well where do we start because you have a wonderful story, your career story is so inspiring and I must admit we first met on a Women Elevating Women in Leadership programme where you completely blew the group away I might add. So let's start and talk about your remarkable career from wanting to be a musical theatre or a star in musical theatre, not just in musical theatre, to becoming a government advisor and corporate leader. That's quite a shift. So can you take us back to the beginning? What's the thread that runs through the different chapters of your career? I

SPEAKER_00: 2:44

think the thread is probably the people element of it. So very much, I guess, different aspects of it. So you're absolutely right. I always wanted to be in musical theatre and that's how I fell into recruitment as many, many people do it's very rare for somebody to say oh yeah I always wanted to be in recruitment most people fall into it but it's a very people and personality driven industry and I always say that if you've got personality you will succeed in recruitment because it is 90% personality probably 5% skill and 5% technical ability I struggle with the technical ability but the other thing I'm okay with. But I always wanted to be in musical theatre. And that was because, I guess, for what you get back from an audience, et cetera, and how it lights people up seeing musical theatre. So I wanted to use some of that passion in recruitment. It was only ever a stopgap. And I started in recruitment by going into a recruitment agency in Bradford in the 90s, where I'm from, when I was just finishing my performing arts degree. And I said to they, temp consultant at the time oh I don't want any permanent work because I'm going to be in a western musical and she was like okay and this was long before the years of theatre school so I kind of come up through the amateur dramatic scene in Yorkshire and gone to university my parents said I should do teacher training as a plan B and I thought how rude I don't need a plan B but I did do teacher training and then so I started temping for this recruitment business and then they offered me a permanent job and I said well I'll take it but you know it is still a stop gap and I started there as on the front desk and then as a temp consultant as you do and I stayed 15 years later and when I left I was director of professional recruitment so I kind of parked the theatre because recruitment is very much an all-in industry so the you know the hours were long the rewards were high and I really really loved it because I spent time with people and helping people and you know creating opportunity for people so I kind of parked the music side of it. What

SPEAKER_01: 5:11

point did you decide to

SPEAKER_00: 5:13

park? Quite early on if I'm really honest quite early on but it wasn't just that I had my I started in recruitment in the May I got married in the June and I was still doing musical theatre then but then I had my daughter in 1999 and having a small child working in recruitment and having a very time-consuming hobby was virtually impossible. So I kind of stopped doing the singing and the theatre. And if somebody said to me, do you have any regrets in your life? That would be my one regret because singing is like a muscle. It's a muscle, isn't it? Then if you don't use it, you lose it. And that's something I didn't learn to a thing you you can either sing or you can't and I could um so I do regret that but yeah I sort of went carried on in my recruitment career and then I went into employability in the during the recession helping long-term unemployed get back into work and then I suddenly decided I took my daughter to university dropped her off and I thought right I'm going back into recruitment so I did just because the when I went into employability unemployment was at 17 percent we got it down to below five percent so that industry had kind of declined somewhat so I went back into recruitment because I missed the pace and the energy and all that sort of and the people and being client facing um so I came back in joined a deco in 2020 the week after lockdown which was a challenging time we um I joined our um gender forum as it was then um in 2021 during COVID and really partly because I took a new role in L&D and the previous head of L&D had been part of the forum and she just forwarded all her invites on to me so I just dialed in one day and it happened to be the day when they were talking about World Menopause Day and what they were going to do and they said oh we need to do something for World Menopause Day who's going to lead and I looked around the virtual room and there was probably only me that had a good understanding then of what it was because I had um forced menopause in 2015 when I had a full hysterectomy um but I didn't actually know that at the time because we didn't talk about it back then they just said oh you might have some symptoms when you I was like oh okay um so I decided that we were going to launch a menopause policy in a deco because at that time only 10% of businesses had a policy and I thought right that's a good thing to do so we launched our policy and I messaged Carolyn Harris who was the head of the all political party group for menopause and Labour MP and said this is what we've done I'm going to do a client round table would you like to be my keynote speaker and she was like yeah why not so we did that I started helping our clients to launch their policy but I also started lobbying government to say we've done this and I believe that all organisations with over 250 people should have a menopause policy because 1 in 10 women will leave their jobs due to menopause and I didn't think that was right. So that's how it started really.

SPEAKER_01: 8:39

Okay, well, so we're going to come back to menopause and your lobbying, because that sounds absolutely fascinating. And I'm sure there's lots of lessons that you've learned that you can pass on to our listeners. But I just want to come back to you for a minute before we do that. Because, you know, you have bucket loads of energy, passion, charisma, you know, that's coming across in our conversation, but also in your story. How have these qualities helped or hindered you? as a woman leader in business?

SPEAKER_00: 9:12

I think they've always helped me, but I know that I've been extremely privileged to always work with very strong women. So I don't know what it's like to work in a really male-dominated environment. I've always naturally gravitated towards female leaders and strong female leaders us so I think that's helped but I honestly think my authenticity has helped me a lot I am very much I people you know said maybe if you were less northern it got further I don't know whether that's true but I am you know I'm northern I'm very down to earth and I don't want to hide that because I think that is a real benefit and a real value and um so that that authenticity has never in my opinion hindered me others might say that you know but i'm very i'm delighted with the work that i now get to do so for me i am exactly where i want to be and doing exactly what i want to do so if that is an example of somebody reaching their full potential which i feel is important that all women reach their potential whatever that looks like for me i don't feel that I've been held back. So my authenticity, my opportunity to learn from some strong leaders. And when I say learn, I think you always learn the good and you think, yeah, I'd like to be like that. But you also learn the bad and think, actually, I wouldn't want to be like that. So you create that over time.

SPEAKER_01: 10:58

So what I'm hearing there is for other women who may be listening today to make sure that you find role models and mentors who are other women who are out there doing it. That makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00: 11:09

Yeah, strong. And if you can't find them in your organisation, reach out and find them in your network is so, so important. And I see I was at an awards ceremony with a friend last night and we were talking about the role of the menopause employment champion and what we had done and all of that sort of thing. I said, but a million percent, the best thing that's happened to me is the people that I've met along the way. And that's what really, really matters. Not for what they can do for me or what I can do for them, but that friendship and that, you know, peer mentoring is so powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 11:53

And I hear, you know, people is very much at the centre of your passion and having passion for what you do. But I'm also hearing that, you know, what you do is very meaningful. It has purpose for you. Now, you know, as a coach, I work with women, I work with leaders, and we talk about purpose and quite often people are i have no idea what my purpose is so what was it what was a defining moment for you in terms of realizing this is something that is really meaningful and purposeful for me i

SPEAKER_00: 12:22

think it was and i probably felt like that up until i started to to do not just the role but the you know when we launched our policy i thought this really matters to people and i was doing it for as i said you know i went through forced menopause in 2015 and quite honestly I just got on with it I had a few weeks off work came back the doctor the surgeon said you might have some menopause symptoms and we left it at that and I got on with it but actually when I look at other people so you know I've got my best friend has just retired from a full A&E career in the NHS and her experience was very very different to mine I have the privilege of working from home whenever I want I have a desk I have a laptop she didn't have any of that and she's responsible for keeping people alive I'm just responsible for you know entertaining people and helping them find a job it's very different you know I've got friends who are nurses and friends who work in factory environments their experience was so different to mine I thought actually this is an opportunity to help people who either don't have a voice a platform or an opportunity to do something in good and and that's why i i took the voluntary role

SPEAKER_01: 13:42

fantastic so let's move back then to thinking about um the voluntary role and becoming that employment champion um what was your mission do you think when you started out to try and an approach because it's actually a systemic issue so you thought i'm going to start lobbying government how would you suddenly start lobbying government share with us what you did

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

we have a political pr company that we work with at ADECO and we've been very instrumental in lobbying for the remote right to work during COVID because obviously our business changed overnight as did most recruitment businesses but there were still roles that needed filling and we were saying to government that's great people need us to support in different roles to what we were recruiting for before but how do we check right to work if we can't meet people face to face so we were lobbying them on that. So I spoke to them, I said, I really want to, you know, do something in this space. And so we were doing I was meeting with MPs, obviously, Carolyn Harris was heavily involved, as she still is in that that area. And it at the same time, the all political party group for menopause were lobbying government to say they needed somebody in government who was responsible for menopause. Too many women were leaving the workplace, not in enough people who were economically inactive were coming back into the workplace. So it was a real challenge. And then at a point in March of last year, sorry, 2023, I was invited on a call with DWP and they told me about this role. But I thought that because we were a recruitment business, they wanted me to find somebody to do the role. But actually they wanted me to

SPEAKER_01: 15:37

do it. Right. Okay. When did you find out it was you?

SPEAKER_00: 15:39

Well, literally, we came off the call and the political PR company rang me and said, you know, they want, because I must have been just really sort of matter of fact, I was taking down a job spec and doing all that like a good recruiter would. And she rang me and said, you know, they want you to do the role, don't you? And I was like, oh, no, I had absolutely no idea. And yeah, I entered into a world that I had absolutely no experience of, no understanding of. And I think It hit me for the first time how much it was going to change my working life when I met the minister, Minns Davis, that I was aligned to. And she wanted to take me to meet Premier Inn, who do some amazing work around women's health in the workplace, particularly around menopause. And this was before she was announcing the role. So we met on the steps of County Hall, the big Premier Inn on the South Bank. said you can't tell anybody while you're here because it's under embargo till I announce it in the house on Monday and I was like I don't think I really knew what the word embargo meant and when she was like in the house I was thinking what does she mean and I was like oh my goodness she means in the House of Commons this is serious and from that moment on I started writing things down that were happening to me that had never happened before and after about six weeks I stopped because it was just every day there was something that you know an interview in the times an interview with the guardian going to the chelsea flower show to look at the menopause rose and all sorts of random things that i just had to take in my stride entered a completely different world completely and people say to me you know did you want to be in politics absolutely not that was never you know deep down i just i wanted to be on tv that's you know that was far more exciting to me than um being in politics.

SPEAKER_01: 17:40

Have you been on TV now?

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

I have been on TV, yes. So I feel, yeah, validated in that way. I mean, I'd like to be on more, clearly, but... We'll just put that out there if anyone's listening. Yeah, absolutely. Get Helen on TV. To the universe, please. So, yeah, I mean, that was when I realised that this was, you know, a big deal in terms of what I could do for women. And I wanted everything I did to be equitable, so So it wasn't about how much you earned. It wasn't about whether you could afford to pay for an appointment or whether you could afford many of the millions of gadgets and potions and lotions that are attributed to menopause that arguably don't have a lot of value. It was for all women everywhere. That's why I took it. Yes,

SPEAKER_01: 18:32

fantastic. And your purpose is really clearly shining through there. So I've got a couple of questions. about menopause then. What do you believe is the biggest misconception about menopause in the workplace? And what do you think needs to happen next at a policy and organisational level? So

SPEAKER_00: 18:52

I think the biggest misconception is that when you get to, well, I mean, you can go through menopause anytime after puberty as a starting point. So, you know, it could be one in a thousand women go through it under 40, one in a hundred go through it under 30. So you can go through it at any time. But the average age of menopause is 51. The average age of perimenopause is 41. So the misconception that you're done at that stage, I think that is one that absolutely, and I know that when I was going through it, I felt like, oh, maybe I'm done. I'm just going to, I'd taken this job in HR and I thought, oh, I'm just going to take a backseat now for the next however many years I need to work. And when I look back now and think, oh, my goodness. Yeah, I have so much more to achieve and so much more to do. So you are absolutely not done. In fact, I would argue that you've got your best, most productive, most exciting years post-menopause. If you get the right support in the workplace, if you need it, the support aligns to your actual symptoms. and lived experience. So, you know, tokenism of giving everybody a fan for the desk. I mean, in this weather, it'd be ideal if everybody had a fan on the desk, but that I've seen tribunals where they've said, you know, oh, well, I gave her a fan. Well, unless your symptoms are hot flushes, that's not relevant. And actually menopause mandates survey that's just come out. It says the most prolific symptom is brain fog. And I can totally see that. So yeah, that if you get the right support in the workplace, and you look after yourself. I think that is a really big thing. And I'm really, when I talk now to employers, I don't just talk about menopause. I talk about women's health across the career span because it's more inclusive. But I also say that you can't just walk into work and say, I'm perimenopausal, what are you going to do for me? If you're not doing anything for yourself. And I think for me, the lifestyle changes that I've undertaken to make sure I'm able to be absolutely on my A game because doing a voluntary role and doing a day job at the same time is pretty challenging. But I know that if I hadn't have been in, I'm not saying I'm at the peak of physical fitness, but I am probably at my peak. So if I hadn't have made those lifestyle changes, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing today. The self-care is really, really important. There is a huge balance there. You can't just walk into the office or the warehouse and say, right, what are you going to do for me if you're not doing anything for yourself? Yes, it's about both elements.

SPEAKER_01: 21:51

What you're saying really concurs because we had Lucy Ryan on as a guest a few weeks ago and she wrote the book Revolting Women and she talked about the sparkle of genius for midlife women that that midlife women go through so much in terms of menopause, taking care of the family when the children are grown up, parents are then ill. They go through this sort of navigate this real challenging period in their lives. But when they come through it, they're so resilient and so full of energy that they're a massive talent opportunity for organisations. And yet organisations don't necessarily know how to work with midlife women. So what are some of the things that you think organisationally, some of the policies that would

SPEAKER_00: 22:39

help? So policy is a really interesting one. And I've told you about, you know, the lobbying and how delighted I am that it's now in the Employee Rights Bill and that every organisation over 250 have to have a menopause action plan. And at first I thought, an action plan is not a policy. But actually, if somebody said to me now, should I write a policy and just, you know, or should I do something else? I would say, absolutely, they should invoke what I call the four pillars of cultural change because a policy is a PDF or something in a file that you only go and ask for if you're not getting what you want from an organisation. It's great to have it as a backup but I talk now more broadly to employers about the four pillars of cultural change and they are education, allyship, lived experience and leadership and And I pulled those together based on our data that we looked at in our business. And we looked at where we were in terms of belonging, health and well-being and equity, diversity and inclusion. And then we reviewed that data after we'd invoked those pillars of cultural change. And so for every topic now that we launch in the business, we use that. So we educate. So in terms of menopause, we educate leaders managers and colleagues so that everybody is aware because without education you can't really have allyship because you don't understand what you're standing up for. Allyship leads to advocacy and actually I am toying with the idea of changing the A from allyship to advocacy so I'll decide but so allyship is things like having safe spaces, having menopause champions, menopause cafes, networks etc where people have got somewhere and somebody to talk to. The third one is lived experience, you know, allowing people to feel comfortable sharing their lived experience in a safe space is really powerful. And when I launched our policy, I did a podcast myself and two other senior leaders in ADECO. And we talked about our menopause symptoms. And we were lucky, I guess that they were really varied. So all three of us have very different symptoms. We were extremely open and honest as I've always been. There's no point in me having this role and not being honest about my lived experience. And my lived experience was I had extremely heavy periods for two and a half years, like endless week after week after week. And I now know that that's a symptom of perimenopause and 44% of women have extremely heavy periods. I had no idea back in 2014. I just thought there was something wrong with me. So sharing that lived experience experience, tough as it might seem. And I've been in national press talking about that. I've been on the radio. But what that did was it allowed other people to feel that they could talk about theirs. So it really changed the culture. And we now talk about topics openly across our business that probably three years ago, we wouldn't have done. I've got a colleague who has been with ADECO 35 years she has three children but she's also had three miscarriages and she said when I came back each time everybody's like oh I'm glad you're back hope you're okay but I never had an opportunity to talk about it so she set up a network called Holding Hands for people who had experienced baby loss and as soon as she told her story and did that other people we've got exceptional long service and retention at ADECO and quite a lot of other people came out and said I've had that lived experience and now I feel I've got somewhere I and go to talk about it. And now we have forests in Scotland that we're replanting. And for every candidate we place, we plant a tree. But now we plant a tree for the lost babies of a deco.

SPEAKER_01: 26:52

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 26:53

That is so inspiring. And that lived experience absolutely led to that. And the final one is leadership. And, you know, getting leadership involved. A lot of this kind of work is done by employee resource groups or forums or groups of what you would probably call grassroots employees. And if that's just done there without the input and support of leadership, it doesn't push it out across the business. So having your leaders involved, extremely important. You get the CEO involved,

SPEAKER_01: 27:28

you get the board involved. Without them actively backing it, it's not going

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

to happen. It's not going to happen. I see that time and again when I go into organisations so those four pillars of cultural change that's what changes your organisation not a policy so I hope that the menopause action plans are more around those four pillars than they are around here's a PDF fill it in say what you would do if somebody came to you and said you know I'm perimenopausal and really make it live and breathe and then actually it would reduce the number of tribunal which are increasing significantly year on year at the moment. And

SPEAKER_01: 28:11

you mentioned allies and you're considering turning that into advocacy, but I'm just curious about how allies, particularly male allies, can show up better for women around this topic.

SPEAKER_00: 28:24

What I do is I create a safe space for them to ask questions so they feel they've got some knowledge. And I took that from very early on when I was doing this work. I was doing an open day at a brewery company and their CEO stood up and he said that as a husband and a son, he felt like he'd got a pretty good handle on women's health. He'd got daughters, he'd got a wife, he'd got a mum, he knew about menopause. But as a senior leader in an organisation, it was business critical that he understood it from an employee's perspective. So he'd asked me to do a men-only session and I I've done them with I've done them across government, public sector, private sector. And what that does is it literally allows for that safe space conversation where they can ask questions where they don't feel embarrassed. They don't feel like they're embarrassing somebody else. And. And people sometimes say to me, is that inclusive? But it's about psychological safety. And if they have that safe space, it will make them a better leader, better manager, better colleague, arguably a better husband, partner, son, father, because invariably they end up asking me questions that clearly aren't work-related questions, but it's obviously something that's troubling them.

SPEAKER_01: 29:52

Very, very good. This is really, really fantastic what you're sharing with us today. So I'm going to move on. and just discuss about your current role of heading up inclusion, employability and the midlife woman. I want to talk about that. So your current role focuses on both inclusion and employability, which are two topics that don't ordinarily, quite often they're not necessarily connected together. So how do you see them interlinking for the midlife woman?

SPEAKER_00: 30:22

So I think the inclusion piece comes from the work that I've done internally across ADECO with the whole ED&I committee and the ERGs and taking that out into other workplaces and out into the community and the employability piece comes from helping people who may not find it easy to find a sustainable role into work so our purpose at ADECO is making the future work for everyone so that's why I'm doing the day job that I'm doing so we're working with groups out in the community who might find it hard and that's linked to our lobbying of government as well. So we work with ex-military, we've signed the Armed Forces Covenant, we've just got our silver status, we work with ex-offenders, people who are neurodivergent, refugees and over 50s. So I guess the women's health piece slots nicely into the over 50s piece and support women to come back into the workplace because a lot of women exited the workplace during COVID who are now finding that they need to come back whether that's for financial reasons or just because they want to but imagine the barriers facing people who have been out of the workplace for a significant amount of time and then overlay that with going into perimenopause or having to support aging parents you know they might need to go back into the workplace for financial reasons because children are expensive, all that sort of thing. So breaking down those barriers and making it easier to return to the workplaces and making workplaces more midlife friendly, that's partly

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

why. So that's my next question is what sort of culture supports midlife women to thrive in the workplace? I

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

think a culture of understanding, of openness, where lived experience is valued, where things like reward and benefits are aligned to midlife. Intergenerational workplaces are by far the most productive and supportive workplaces anyway. And a whole piece on what works for Gen Z won't work for Gen X, a boomer, a traditionalist, etc. And we spend a lot of time working through that in all aspects of our work to make sure we are inclusive. So in terms of rewards and recognition, what would work for a midlife woman may not be what would work for somebody who is Gen Z. They might want different things. Making sure you align to all your generations is important. But I also think that that education, that's why we do that education piece, because it's impossible to understand to walk a mile in their shoes but with education you've got a good understanding of what it's like to and being able to share you know inviting that's why I talk about women's health and not just one aspect of it because it may and I also talk about hormonal physical mental and financial health because that makes it okay to talk about every aspect of who you are as a human so having that understanding that conversation understanding you know things like flexible working um and i don't just mean coming into the office or not coming into the office i've been working at a time to suit you etc and providing that safe space and those are the types of things that women look for and a lot of organizations sign a pledge to say they're age friendly menopause friendly all different types of things but until you actually get in there you don't really know whether that lives and breathes and that's the important

SPEAKER_01: 34:28

thing. So it's the things that

SPEAKER_00: 34:28

are

SPEAKER_01: 34:29

actually happening, how people are acting and behaving, you know, what's okay to do or not do in that workplace that makes the difference.

SPEAKER_00: 34:37

Absolutely. I went to an event last night, as I said, and I went to the bar and I said, what alcohol-free drinks do you have? And the guy went, oh, he just got some water. And he said, that's a bit of a miss in 2025, isn't it? I said, it absolutely is. Not just for the number of women in midlife that the impact of HRT, hormones, alcohol and caffeine is so profound on the body that a large number of midlife women are turning their back on the very thing that got them through their 20s, 30s and 40s. But also, 25% of Gen Z don't drink alcohol. So it's just not inclusive to have some sparkling water in a paper cup. They're definitely missing

SPEAKER_01: 35:26

a trick

SPEAKER_00: 35:26

there

SPEAKER_01: 35:27

okay now you're involved in several initiatives from pro-age to well-being of women what are the different lenses of being involved in these initiatives teach you about the future of work

SPEAKER_00: 35:42

I think well women over 50 the fastest growing demographic in the workplace so yeah we're having to work longer as we know so you know life is extremely expensive we're still in a cost of living crisis that doesn't look like it's getting any better. But I think, and also the largest growing group of entrepreneurs are women over 50 as well. So I see a very different demographic there. I think it's an exciting space to be in. And I can see that... I'm certainly learning a lot from my Gen Z colleagues at the moment. So we look at that, the difference in how they view work. So for me and a lot of my peers, when we started work, work was everything and you fit your life, including your child, your partner, your home around work. And I look at my daughter now and quite rightly, And she's very good at a job and she's very passionate about a job, but it's completely different. You know, they have a very defined life outside of work and work is something that works as part of their life. It's not their whole life. And I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01: 37:06

That is such a clear distinction and shift, isn't it, in attitude, is that actually work is part of my life. It's not all of my life. And I used to

SPEAKER_00: 37:16

always say, 95% of my personality is probably my job, my career. And actually I'm really working to do something about that because I don't think that's, that's not what you want to be remembered for necessarily. So it's an exciting time. I'm really excited to be part of ProAge because I think we are, you know, a really strong voice in the workplace. And I think there's a lot of opportunity. I was in Japan a As part of one of the talks that I did, I was on a panel and it was a global femtech challenge. And, you know, with the developments in femtech and the investment in femtech, our productivity and our passion for life will go on far longer. And it's not just about women's health specifically. It's about health that impacts on women and the differences that need to happen in terms of diagnosis, support, etc. testing all of that sort of thing we will have a far greater quality of life for far longer than previous generations so that for me is really exciting to be I've already if you look on the ONS there's an ONS calculator that tells you what your life expectancy is if you so you put in your age you put in whether you're male or female and it gives you what your life expectancy is and it tells you what your chances are are out of 10 to live to 100. So I've got a one in 10 chance, I think. And that's good enough for me. But I only want to be productive and healthy in that time. So that's really, really important. So how we change that narrative on, you know, lifelong learning, productive, you know, longer, that's really important. I'm really proud to be part of that. And I'm And well-being of women, just look at women right through their life and support them in all those life stages. And I think that's really key as well, that we don't... I talk about the four I's. One of them is intergenerational. One of them is intersectional. So it's about all women in the workplace. And yeah, they need to know about menopause because 51% of the population will go through it. But if I've just started my career and I'm really struggling with menopause, with endometriosis and I've nobody to talk to and I don't feel I can talk to anybody, the fact that I'm going to go into menopause maybe in 15, 20 years, it doesn't matter. I want to know how I look after myself and what my organisation is going to do to support me right now. So being part of both of those, really I'm passionate about the work that we can do to make working lives more productive, more positive and look at it you know this wasn't why I went to Japan but in Japan they see menopause as a really positive thing it's the second spring that's what they call it so it's a real time you know for you to share and somebody said to me how do you manage to do everything that you do and I said I'll be really honest other than doing this I don't really have any responsibility my daughter's grown up thankfully my parents are healthy my husband has retired from a formula career so does everything so I can cram all this in because it's in my opinion this is my time

SPEAKER_01: 40:56

and also all the things you've just been talking about there you know I think organizations particularly corporate organizations have a real obsession with productivity and performance and profit and all that sort of stuff but actually all the things you've referred to there if people come up come into work feeling better more energized because they're looking after themselves better, they have got a better life balance, that is absolutely going to have a positive impact on organisations'

SPEAKER_00: 41:24

effectiveness. 100%. You know, workplace wellbeing, workplace wellbeing has a direct correlation to bottom line profitability. Okay,

SPEAKER_01: 41:33

so let's move into some final reflections. So if your musical theatre dream had come true, what role would you be playing now, do you think? And how does that version of yourself still show up in the work that you do today so where's that musical theatre star in you today

SPEAKER_00: 41:52

good question I am the role well obviously it changes over time so my dream when I first started in recruitment 30 years ago I probably wanted to play Christine in Phantom of the Opera that was the dream but now I would say because of you know time has passed but I think it's more me more me I would always I still do and maybe there is still an opportunity to I always wanted to play Dolly in Hello Dolly. And the reason for that is actually, well, I love the music and I love the role, et cetera. But how that plays out in the day-to-day now is that was her job. That's what she did. She put people together and for the greater good, for the benefit of them without, she wasn't doing it for herself, she was doing it for other people. And that was more in a romantic way, but there was an element of business woven through Hello Dolly as well. So I absolutely see that networking, that matchmaking. One of the things I love most is when I meet somebody, I think, oh, they could really benefit from meeting so-and-so. So I'll put them together because I know that they've got common interests, things like that. So that I would absolutely see myself in that role. And we went to see it last year professionally in London. My husband took me and Imelda Staunton played Dolly and she was incredible. incredible it's a tough role there's a lot of lines to learn it's very fast paced and um when we're at the end it was really emotional i said we're coming back on the tube but my husband said are you all right i said yeah i said that could have been me i could have been somebody you said you are somebody you absolutely are somebody helen don't don't patronize me but yeah god honestly but i can see when i go see things like that i think oh my god that could have been you're being your own version i reckon in what you're doing I know. And secretly when I go out, because I'm training to climb Mount Toubkal in Morocco in September, I go out really early in the morning and I put show tunes on and I live in a very remote part of Lincolnshire and I'm walking down the country lane singing to myself while I'm walking. So yeah, I'm

SPEAKER_01: 44:10

still practicing. You're supporting countless women. What do you think you're most proud of so far?

SPEAKER_00: 44:23

I guess, I mean, if I'm really honest, I think my proudest, my biggest achievement is my daughter because, you know, she is phenomenal. She works really, I've given her a great work ethic, if nothing else. She would always say that, jokingly, she was brought up by my BlackBerry because when we got a BlackBerry in the workplace, it kind of, yeah, it changed workplace life balance is she would always say we've actually got a photo of her sat on the childminder's knee and me on my blackberry and when her childminder got married Olivia was on the top table at the wedding so but I think I've given her a really strong work ethic and I guess having the report the government strategy on menopause which I called no time to step back having that published on the gov.uk website and publishing my report Shattering the Silence on International Women's Day at 10 Downing Street that for me was a really key achievement in Japan a couple of weeks ago I spoke at the Expo 2025 on the Women's Pavilion stage about women's health in the workplace that was really a real pinch me moment and I think people say that just off the the top of their head but that was really a pinch me moment but I just think what's next you know I feel like there's so much more to

SPEAKER_01: 45:54

to come oh gosh so real exciting future you're seeing for yourself is what I'm hearing oh I'm definitely not done definitely not done amazing I can relate to what you're saying I mean I'm in my 60s now and I first of all I have no idea how I got to be where I am now in terms of age

SPEAKER_00: 46:12

it's like what what happened but 60 is the new 40 according to in international monetary funds in

SPEAKER_01: 46:18

terms of energy and being purpose-driven i'm more purpose-driven than ever so i can't i can't imagine stopping yeah finally what's one piece of advice you can give to women who may be at a crossroads

SPEAKER_00: 46:33

i would say just sit with it for a moment and see how you see what's what you can do to support yourself first and foremost because honestly of all of the things that I've done and implemented in workplaces what I've implemented in myself has made by far the biggest difference so I think lifestyle nutrition exercise that sort of thing and I think think about who you want to be not what you want to do because if you focus on yourself and get yourself into the right headspace shape you whatever that looks like you'll have far more clarity about where you want to go when you feel confident in yourself and I

SPEAKER_01: 47:27

think you'll have far more fun as well be far

SPEAKER_00: 47:29

more enjoyable absolutely yeah nothing says fun like climbing a mountain 30 degrees I'm not

SPEAKER_01: 47:35

sure I'm with you on that one but I admire the fact you're doing it I think that is fantastic Helen thank you so so much for joining me today this has been an incredibly rich conversation I know just the whole thing for not just thinking about individually where you are as a woman leader, but also what organisations can do and what governments can do to support the wellbeing of women. It's been a very rich conversation. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Before we wrap up, I want to share something with you. Do you ever feel like your confidence isn't really the issue, but wish you could strengthen your ability to deal with things that keep chipping away at it? The bias, the double standards, the pressure to prove yourself, to name just a few. That's exactly why I could exploding the confidence myth. A three-month program for women leaders who are ready to change that story. It combines one-to-one coaching, group coaching and a powerful in-person workshop. The next program starts at the beginning of November with the workshop taking place on the 7th of November at the Connacht Rooms in Holborn, London. Past participants have described it as validating, supportive and stretching. They've become more visible, raised their value, increased their financial return and broken through patterns that have held them back. But perhaps most importantly, they've gained a deeper sense of okayness with who they are, recognising they already have something valuable to offer. If this resonates with you or you know someone who would benefit, you'll find all the details in the show notes. I'd love you to join us. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment, change happens through conversation so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.