Episode 20 - Domestic Abuse and It's Hidden Impact at Work - with Vanessa White

This week on the She Leads Collective Podcast, host Mary Gregory is joined by Vanessa White, accredited Relationship and Divorce Master Coach, to mark Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Together they open up an important and often hidden conversation: how abuse at home can impact confidence, performance, and leadership at work.

Vanessa shares her lived experience of domestic abuse and how it shaped her mission to support others through recovery, resilience, and rediscovery. The conversation explores:

• The subtle signs of abuse and coercive control — and why they’re so easily missed
• How trauma can show up in confidence, behaviour, and leadership
• What leaders and organisations can do to create trauma-informed, compassionate workplaces
• Why emotional safety and trust are at the heart of recovery and empowerment

This powerful and sensitive episode invites us all to lead with greater empathy, awareness, and humanity.

Connect with Vanessa on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessa-white-332a03287/

Or on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/vanessawhitecoaching/

If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, please reach out for help:
 📞 National Domestic Abuse Helpline – 0808 2000 247
🌐 nationaldahelpline.org.uk

🔗 Connect with Mary: marygregory.com

📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregory

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mary_gregory/

📰 Newsletter: Subscribe on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7029410958645059584

🎙 Want to be a guest? Get in touch!
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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello and welcome to She Lee's Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. A quick note before we begin. This episode discusses sensitive topics including domestic abuse and abuse in the workplace, which some listeners may find upsetting. If you need support, you can contact the National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 0808 200247 or visit nationaldahelpline.org.uk for confidential advice and support. Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. What if the reason someone seems disengaged or difficult at work is because they're fighting to survive something unimaginable at home? Well, on today's episode, we're going to be exploring one of the most hidden and misunderstood and deeply human issues affecting women's leadership. The impact of toxic and abusive relationships, and how this pain so often walks silently into the workplace. My guest today is Vanessa White, an accredited relationship and divorce master coach who specializes in domestic abuse recovery and high conflict separations. What makes Vanessa's voice so powerful is not only her deep professional expertise, but the fact that she blends this with a lived experience, guiding women with both empathy and practical trauma-informed strategies. I'm hoping that in our conversation we'll talk about some emotional and psychological abuse, how it shows up, how it affects women's behaviour both subtly and dramatically, and how they might lead at work, how they relate to their colleagues and how they see themselves. Or for anyone who's found themselves second guessing themselves or overperforming to prove their worth. Sometimes the answer lies far beyond the office walls. And I'm really looking forward to hearing from Vanessa and tuning into her wisdom on this subject. So, Vanessa, a very warm welcome to you today.

SPEAKER_01: 2:53

Hi Mary, thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:57

It's a real pleasure to have you here today. And I must admit that this is a subject very close to my heart because, like many women, I in my past life have found myself in a domestic violent relationship and abusive relationships as well. Thankfully, all in the past now, but absolutely it was hard to admit and recognise that that's where I was at the time. So I notice in your work you talk about blending lived experience, because I think I'm referring to my lived experience with proven strategies. So can you share a little bit about your own story?

SPEAKER_01: 3:32

Yes, sure. Um, you're quite right. I did really ultimately come into this line of work because of my own lived experiences, and I chose to train and become an accredited coach and then go on and do a master accreditation, which gave me the specialism in domestic abuse because I too have lived experience of domestic abuse a long time ago now. Um, I'm also divorced and that was very tricky. And I became a single mother of four children and also had to then go back to work and navigate all of that, having been a full-time mother at home. So I understand through my own experiences a lot of what clients experience. Everyone's experience is obviously different, but I think it gives me that empathy. And when I was going through my relationship difficulties, there really wasn't the help out there like there is now, and there weren't podcasts talking like this openly, there weren't sort of social media posts giving people pointers as to what these relationship challenges are. So I really wanted to be a voice for those people so that people didn't have to go through it alone like I did. And, you know, actually being able to help people to get out of difficult relationships if that's what they're in, to understand the impact of those on themselves and their children, and to help them with that um healing, growth, and recovery, whatever you want to call it. And also importantly, for people to understand what healthy relationships are, what they're not. And we see a lot of repeating patterns of people getting back into a similar type of relationship, and we really want to try and help people not do that so that they go forward and have a healthy relationship in the future.

SPEAKER_00: 5:38

Yes. And I think the support element is so, so key. And that's why I'm keen to talk about this in the in the context of what can happen at work and how can organizations or businesses support people that may be experiencing this kind of thing. And I think also the other thing I noticed, what was coming up for me as you were talking, is you know, I didn't know I was in an abusive relationship until suddenly I was in it. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh gosh, I didn't hadn't realized this had got that far. And yet when I spoke with friends afterwards, they described signs that this wasn't okay that I had never seen when I was in the relationship. And I think that's part of the challenge around domestic abuse and domestic violence is we don't know we're in that toxic relationship. We're almost blind to it when we're in it. Other people can see it, but we can't. So, what are some of the earliest signs that you can you saw in your own journey or in those that you support?

SPEAKER_01: 6:34

I think you're spot on, Mary, with that, actually. And I see that a lot. Um, and if I talk about myself, I didn't realize I would never ever have labelled it as domestic abuse, and it was actually somebody else, a professional, who pointed it out to me having observed some things, some behaviors. And I yeah, I would never have actually labeled it that and that is very, very common, and it's common because our relationship is normal for us, and if we have particularly been in only unhealthy or abusive relationships, that is all we know, so we think that's normal, and it can be very difficult to kind of label that as anything other than well, this just happens, this is just how it is. Um, and I think that makes it particularly hard for people to spot. And the the sort of early signs you're talking about. The trouble with domestic abuse is it's this insipid drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip incremental changes in behavior that are so subtle sometimes that you don't even notice they're happening. But if you kind of zoomed back and looked over a period of time, you would see this shift in what's going on, but at the time, they're so small. So, again, that can make it incredibly difficult to spot. I think, in terms of if somebody is in a relationship and they think that it doesn't feel right, it's it's things like are they being isolated from friends and family, work colleagues, if they're not allowed to go out and socialize, they're told when they can go out, they're told what they can wear, they are maybe tracked using their phone or their car tracker, they have limits on their finances and control is by their partner on what they can spend and how they can spend their money, whether they have any money to spend, whether they feel like they are being humiliated constantly and diminished and made to feel you know worthless and they're never listened to, they're constantly told they're wrong, they're at fault, um, this is all on them. There are so many signs, but it's a pattern of behavior, and I think it's important to kind of get that out there. Domestic abuse and uh coercive and controlling behavior, which is part of domestic abuse, one type of domestic abuse, it's a pattern of behaviors over time, and usually we see more than one type of abuse going on. So, what I mean by that is you know, physical violence. A lot of people think if there's no physical violence, there's no abuse. A very outdated and a wrong statement. You can have terrible domestic abuse going on, but someone never actually lays a finger on the partner.

SPEAKER_00: 9:45

I can totally concur with that. I might I having been in more than one abusive relationship, and one was violent, but the violence was almost like secondary to all the other um self-esteem destroying behavior that have been going on, very similar to what you're describing, actually.

SPEAKER_01: 10:00

So I think we have to be really clear. So often, say physical violence is one thing that's going on, there will be other types of behavior, so then that might be financial abuse, that might be coercive and controlling behavior, um, emotional abuse, tech abuse. There will be other things going on to control that person, it's not just kind of one isolated incident. So we're looking for a pattern over time, and that feeling that you're walking on eggshells, even if you can't quite pinpoint why, but you have that feeling all the time. Oh, I'd better not say that, or I better not do that, or you are changing your behavior to try and stop your partner from reacting. That's a sign that something is not right here.

SPEAKER_00: 10:51

Absolutely. And and what you're describing there is, you know, I've experienced and coached people who've had that experience in the workplace. Now, the the level of relationship is not as deep as if how it might be in their in their with their partner, their their living partner or their husband or wife, but there's still that sense with their boss or with their colleagues that they're having to walk around on eggshells. So that's a great thing to flag to people. If you're getting that experience in the workplace, that's an indication that something is not okay in those working relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 11:22

That's such a great thing to raise, Mary, because actually I experienced that myself later. Um, and I recognized I'd done all I kind of knew the signs and things like that. And I had exactly that experience with someone in my workplace in the past. And you know what? I recognized in myself the feelings I'd had when I was with my ex-partner who had been abusive to me. And I was thinking, why am I feeling these things that I had with that person in this work context? Um, walking on eggshells, feeling like I was being gaslit, which is where we're made to believe we're kind of going crazy, things didn't happen. Those things I recognize that in work. So you can have, you know, control and abuse, bullying in the workplace, in family situations. It doesn't just have to be in romantic relationships in terms of those kinds of behaviors towards somebody else. Ultimately, control, bullying, abuse comes from a power thing. It's a power play, isn't it? Wanting power over. And sometimes it's obvious the power play that's in place, i.e., a boss with their employee. Sometimes it's less obvious what the power dynamic actually is, but the root of abuse, bullying, control is about power, and we have to kind of remember that.

SPEAKER_00: 12:56

It kind of just stirs me to hear all this, really. And I hope for those, if anyone is listening to this and is experiencing those sorts of experiences at work, that this conversation is going to be helpful to them as well. So I'm just going to mention a few statistics before we go on into exploring abuse and domestic abuse in the and the workplace a bit more, because I think it's useful to share these statistics because often when we're in that abusive situation, we feel incredibly alone. And this is from the National Centre for Domestic Violence. One in four women experiences domestic abuse or violence in any year, and one in six or seven men. So I think we need to flag this is not just exclusive to women. Men do experience it too, although it's kind of works out about two-thirds women to men in terms of the number of people that are experiencing domestic abuse or violence. And last year, 1.7 million women and 700,000 men experienced domestic violence of one sort of an or another. So this is a big, big issue. And another statistic that really struck me as well, because it's not just about the people who are at the cusp of this and experiencing it, it's also their families, their children, other people around them. 12.6 million in our country alone were affected by it last year. We're talking about a big proportion of the population. This is a serious issue that really does need to be talked about. So we've already mentioned then, we've got into the conversation already about abuse doesn't stay at home. So you might be being abused at home, that might be where it's happening, but it will impact how you show up at work. I know from my own personal experience, it absolutely impacted my sense of self-worth and my confidence. But when we think about the workplace, and this could be experiencing, you know, difficult, you know, that eggshell experience in the workplace or carrying stuff through from home, what are the patterns that we should be looking out for of women who may be navigating these challenging circumstances of surviving at home and then trying to lead and perform professionally?

SPEAKER_01: 15:09

Yeah, I think it's I mean it's a massive challenge. And just to add another statistic, actually, to yours, Mary, the cost of business of domestic abuse is thought to be about 17 billion pounds in terms of absenteeism, um, productivity, the knock-on effect to the wider economy and society. So that is it's huge, just to kind of put it in a financial cost with the workplace. We don't just leave our private life at home when we go into work, and also the work environment has shifted a lot. If we now look at you know how many people are working from home, that has a huge impact. You have employees working from home and they are in an abusive relationship and they are working, they don't even be uh able to get out in the day. You that in itself is a massive shift from how we used to work. You know, the work environment, our office, our school, wherever we're going to work, may be the only safe place for us. And we have to kind of remember that it can be a haven. Um, but obviously things change in terms of a lot of people are working from home now. I think there are some key things that um you could see if somebody in your work environment is going through domestic abuse, and um a big one is kind of sudden changes in appearance. So if we think about physical violence here, and someone has bruising or cuts or burns or some other kind of mark on them, you know, they may suddenly dress quite differently, they may be covering up, you know, a big one is like the weather we've been having here, and someone's coming in covered up, long sleeves, long trousers. Um, you know, I'm talking about women here, um, a scarf on, and you think, gosh, you know, it's boiling outside. And that could be to hide marks, someone changing the way they make up their face, if they've got a bruise, suddenly they're wearing different sorts of makeup or very heavy makeup, whereas they don't normally, those kinds of things that you notice could be a sign. It may not be, but it's one of the signs that can be quite clear. I think also if someone sort of used to dress and take pride in their appearance, sometimes maybe they can become a bit more scruffy because they're not allowed to dress in a way that shows shows them off in the best light. So they may suddenly become more slightly more disheveled, a bit less stylish, take less pride in what they look like, their hair, just things that you notice quite a shift. Um, those things can be quite noticeable and quite stark. Again, a change in behaviour generally. So somebody, even if you can't quite pinpoint it, but they and again, this is about building up a picture. We want to kind of look at the whole of the person if we can. Absenteeism is a big one with domestic abuse because people could be absent a lot, either because they have been injured and so they have to take time off work, or because their partner is controlling them going out of the house, or you know, people take their partner's car keys and so they can't actually drive to work. They have no money to get the bus, so they can't get to work. So there are lots of reasons with domestic abuse why someone may be absent from work, and absenteeism, excessive levels, or again a shift, suddenly they're becoming much more absent than they were, ringing in sick, go having to go home, all of those kind of things. Lateness is another one, you know. Again, they either have been kept on purpose, so they are late for work, so they get in trouble when they get to work. It could also be people doing excessive hours. So if someone's safe haven is their office, they could come in really early and they could go home really late. And again, if you think this is kind of a bit excessive, it could be because they just don't want to be at home. And that, you know, that is noticeable and overly anxious if their phone rings, if there's a call, they get quite jumpy, or they have to answer something straight away, or you're very aware that around their phone and things like that, there is behavior that denotes nervousness, isolation from colleagues, someone who used to go out, someone who used to chat to you at lunchtime, suddenly they're at their desk working at lunchtime, they don't socialise with you, they won't go out for the nights out, they become very withdrawn and very isolated. Their partner turning up at work suddenly, oh, I've brought your lunch for you. And everyone thinks, oh, what a lovely partner you've got. But actually, it's just to check they are at work, you know, it's manipulation. So the the partner suddenly showing up more, waiting outside at the end of the day, bringing things in, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00: 20:27

There's a lot, then there's there is a lot of signs, and but what I get the the the general thread of that is that it's a change in behavior. So they might have been really cheerful.

SPEAKER_01: 20:38

There's lots of things, some can be subtle, some less so, and obviously that that you see that change if you know the person. They've been in your environment working with you for a long time. Of course, if it's a new person and you don't know them, you don't know there's a shift, or you don't know that's not how they naturally would be. So that's more difficult to see.

SPEAKER_00: 20:59

And if you were a manager and you started to notice some of these changes, how might you approach a conversation with your team member?

SPEAKER_01: 21:08

I have to put that into context. If you are in an abusive relationship, it doesn't matter what type of abuse is going on, you are frightened of your partner and what they might do. And if you don't know what threats they've had to keep quiet, if there are children involved, you are going to be super cautious about opening that door to let people know what's going on. So we have to kind of remember that. So I would say, Tread Claire carefully, you want if you're a manager in an environment and there is an obligation for workplaces now to actually, as part of their kind of care for their employees, to focus on supporting around domestic abuse. Now, I don't mean they sort of have to become social workers or anything like that, but actually you do have an obligation for the safety and well-being of your employees. So I would say sensitively, talk to them. I would do it verbally. I would refrain initially from doing emails or anything writing, written, because again, you don't know whether the perpetrator reads their emails, reads their phone, and sees the manager going, Oh, I'm really worried about you. I notice you've got a black heart, you know, in an email that is then read by somebody else. So I would do it verbally. Take them nicely aside for a coffee. Everything okay? Is anything going on? You know, you can talk to me about anything. So making sure they know your ears are open if they want to say something. Probably they will say, no, everything's fine. And it takes time and time again very often for someone to disclose domestic abuse. It can take eight or so times for someone to leave an abusive relationship. So we don't expect someone necessarily to go straight away, oh yes, actually this happened. More often than not, then they're gonna go, no, everything's fine. No, everything's fine. Can I get back to work now? And that does not mean there is not something going on. So we want to keep that door open, keep checking in with that person because if they know they can trust you and that you are safe, they will hopefully eventually open up and go, actually, this is happening and I don't know what to do about it. You have to build a culture of trust. You have to listen without any judgment and respect what they're saying. So even if they tell you something is going on, but they're like, I can't do anything about it right now, help them where they can if they need a private room to make phone calls, to police, to social workers, to housing, to be able to plan how they might get out to a solicitor, offer them that in the workplace because they may not be able to ring people from home. And if you have domestic abuse policy within your organization, which pe organizations are being encouraged to do now, which shows that you are an understanding, trusting, safe environment for people to talk to, that can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 24:00

Just keep your door open, keep messaged, keep saying to that person you're there, you're there to support them, and in no way try and force them to share anything, just be there for them consistently.

SPEAKER_01: 24:11

Be there for them consistently and don't take them saying nothing's going on as a thing that it nothing is going on. And it's it's being consistent, actually keep an eye on that person, look for some of those other signs that we talked about earlier on, and you know, keep just have a regular coffee with them. It doesn't have to be a big heavy meeting, and just you know, just keep checking in. Let's let's go and have a coffee and you know, and also if it's your boss and you don't normally talk about personal life in any way, and I don't mean kind of deeper deep stuff even, but you know, if I'm the manager, actually me letting that person in slightly to my life, just you know, talking about you know what I did at the weekend, whereas normally I might not I might not do that with this employee. You know, if I was checking and just saying, oh gosh, you know, I had such such a fun weekend, or I did this at the weekend, or you know, my kids were a nightmare, just slightly, it's not on the same context as a disclosure of domestic abuse, but just by you being a bit more open about your life could encourage the employee to feel they could tell you something about theirs.

SPEAKER_00: 25:24

And I guess what I'm hearing there is that's you're starting to deepen the relationship. It's beyond that sort of work. We just talk about work and what needs to be done. We actually are starting to treat each other as human beings here and get connected on a different level, which I guess if someone is going to share about what's going on, they need to feel that connection and that trust at that level.

SPEAKER_01: 25:42

100% trust is important because these people do not feel safe, they are not safe in their most personal relationships to be themselves, to be honest, to be able to just go about their business. So they will everywhere where they are, they will have this feeling of not feeling safe. So we have to kind of put that in perspective. So the more you can create a feeling of emotional safety for that person, um, and just actually for colleagues generally, um, the better, and the more likely people will feel that they can come forward.

SPEAKER_00: 26:22

So we've talked about what the manager can do. What about the organizations? So, from a perspective, you know, what should HR leaders or executive teams be thinking about if they truly want to create a trauma-informed and supportive workplace?

SPEAKER_01: 26:36

Yeah, well, I think you're a small organization with obviously a much lower budget, you may not have an HR department, you may work in very close confines, it's a very small team. Obviously, it's quite different to if you're in a kind of much bigger organization that has much more resource generally, but some of what we've already said is creating an organizational structure that is trusted, safe, so that you feel you are valued as people. And I think we should be doing that anyway, as organizational leaders, you know, not just in relation to domestic abuse. People should be able to go to work and feel valued and that it is a trusted environment. So that as a kind of general rule, I suppose, we should be doing anyway. That really comes into play when you're talking about domestic abuse. I think having a clear domestic abuse policy is really important because it has been shown that organizations that are doing that now has increased the amount of disclosures that have happened, and that is obviously only a good thing. So having a policy so that people who maybe are in that situation know who to go to, and the people who are on the receiving end of that information then know what to do with it because that's the important thing. If someone tells you they're in an abusive situation, well, what do I now do? Who do I tell? Who do I not tell? We have to still keep this person safe. So having a policy helps everybody to know what the process might be. Some organizations have specialists within, you know, maybe there's a few people within the organization who are trained more as kind of what people would call term a domestic abuse champion within the organization. You can get training on that, but there are a few key people who are have much more knowledge within the organization, which can that can also be a really helpful thing. There's also, I mean, there is an organization called IDA, which is the employees' initiative on domestic abuse, and they do a lot of support training, they have handbooks, they have kind of template policies, and they are free to join if you're an employer organization. That can be a really useful resource for people, and there's no cost to that. But I think in an organization, it's making it a culture where people feel that there are people who are going to listen to them, knowing how to signpost, that's another thing. If you're an organization and you think, right, I want to take this a bit more seriously, I want to actually focus on this, you know, having a policy, having some domestic abuse champions, if that's suitable for your organization, having some places to signpost people to, because it may be actual domestic abuse organizations that you need to signpost people to. Changing of how they go into relationships in the so having some people to signpost your employees to is a really, really good idea. Understanding the process and who you communicate to. So communication within the organization about domestic abuse is very, very important. Is working from home. How can we safeguard our employees as an organization who work from home? And what do we need to put in place to maybe think a little bit broader than we were before if we're thinking along the lines of domestic abuse?

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

Very good. So again, there's lots and lots of things that organisations could do. So if anyone is listening as an HR director today or even you know a manager, but somebody who is you know responsible for others in the organization, there is lots of things you can do that are possible to make it safer and to make it okay for people to be able to get the support they need from the people they work with. So let's move on and just talk a bit about recovery. So um when a woman leaves um an abusive relationship, what does healing look like and how can they help themselves along the way?

SPEAKER_01: 31:12

Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, you'll know yourself, um Mary, leaving the relationship is not the end of the story, you know, um, it's kind of the start of that rebuilding, recovery journey, reclaiming who you are, um, all of those things. So there is a lot to kind of be done after a relationship has ended like that. Um, and you know, as we've sort of talked about, post-separation post-separation abuse is a real thing, and so abusive behavior can continue. Um, but the work that somebody who has been in that situation does on themselves is absolutely invaluable because very often your self-worth is on the floor, you have no value of yourself, you don't respect yourself, you've been told probably constantly that you're useless, you're this, you're too fat, you're too this, you're you know, you're not a good enough wife, you're not all of these things, you will have just been trashed continually. So the way you feel about yourself is going to be very, very um low. So actually, what we want to do is build up how we feel about ourselves. Now, you can do some of that yourself. Um, you know, there are lots of really great podcasts, social media um accounts. Um, there's some really informative things on the internet um that actually can help you to kick start that and to feel supported in your own home. I think getting some professional help, because let's face it, domestic abuse is traumatic. It's it's incredibly difficult to have lived through. If you've got children, it exacerbates all of that. And so actually working out the impact of that on you and how you can start believing in yourself more and really focusing more on you, because when you have been in that sort of relationship, the last person you focus on is yourself. So we need to change that, and so working with somebody who is trained and expertise is really, really useful. So I would say all of those kinds of things on the self are really important. When when someone is leaving a relationship or just afterwards is actually when we are at most at risk, the behavior can often escalate, and so leaving, you need to feel safe to leave. And people say, or why didn't you leave? Or why didn't you, you know, it's not that simple. And you know, they may have no money because they may have had all their money taken away from them. And I think this is something people don't understand, it's quite pertinent if you're an employer. Even top earners can have their earnings just filtered off, they don't ever see their earnings, so you it doesn't, you know, there is no social standing for domestic abuse, there's no colour, you know, everybody could be at risk of domestic abuse. But if somebody has had their earnings going straight into their partner's bank account, they have no money, they have no, they can't get a mortgage, somehow their partner has built debts up in their name, so they have no credit rating, they have literally nothing. So leaving is incredibly hard. So you need to do a bit of safety plan, get clarity, get advice, particularly if you're trying to divorce somebody who is abusive, which is stressful and challenging. Get the right advice so you are clear on where you stand, because what an abuser might have done is say, Don't ever try and divorce me because I'll have the children, I'll take you all the way to court, and you'll never see those kids again, which of course is terrifying. So then afterwards, they will be remembering this, think, well, I can't go and see a lawyer, or I can't, even if they've got out of the relationship, they might be scared to push into a divorce. So it's really important to get advice from people because what your abuser has told you will be wrong, it will be to do with control and manipulation and scaring you to stop taking action. So go and get good advice. And so, if you're an employer, help your employees do that, give them two hours to go and have a meeting with a solicitor, allow them to have that sort of time within reason, obviously, because it's really important.

SPEAKER_00: 35:55

I s I hear what you're saying about plan and get the support and get the advice you need. My experience was there wasn't that much time to plan, really, because I made a decision I could not stay in that relationship because I'd got hurt physically, and I think I had got some advice, and I I certainly had support around me, but I suppose what I want to put out there is use what you can, you know, look to your support network, absolutely start working on building your self-esteem back up, but it sometimes can be just one step at a time, I think, and just take that step and trust it is moving you into a better place than if you stayed into the relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 36:37

100%. I totally agree with you. You know, there are some instances if you are in danger or your children are, and that is not me being dramatic, but if you are in danger, you need to get out. It's not always easy to do that, even when you're in danger. Call the police, get out. It is super important, and that's a really, really clear message. I think also some of the things can be done after you're out. So those things are, you know, it's long term to recover from an abusive relationship takes time. It's not something that, like, tomorrow we're all fine and it's okay. No, it takes time, it takes work, small steps, like you said, Mary. So don't expect too much of yourself. It's going to be a bit of a journey for you. But a lot of those things you can do once you're out of it.

SPEAKER_00: 37:30

But there is something about for me, there are different arms to the support that you get. There's the legal support that you can get, and that's absolutely there. There is the emotional support that you might find from friends, but also there's almost the foundational support, which I mean I'm a great advocate for therapy. I definitely went into therapy. I was in therapy before I left, actually, but I continued it long, long time afterwards because it was so important for me to not find myself in that situation again.

SPEAKER_01: 37:57

Yeah, I a hundred percent. Because for me, I talk on a personal level, but also just for me looking at others, there is nothing kind of more soul destroying to me than somebody who has, you know, got out of a relationship if we're talking about abuse like that, which is hard in itself. Getting out of one of those relationships takes courage and determination and maybe many times trying to do it. So to get out of that, which is a huge thing, to then only end up in a similar type of relationship but with a different face on your partner, to me is really soul destroying. And we want to try and avoid that as much as possible. And that's where the work you're talking about comes into play. And a lot of the work for me, and a lot of the reason why I do actually do the job I do, which is about understanding healthy relationships, understanding what we are worth, that we deserve the very best in love and relationships, and that work is really important.

SPEAKER_00: 39:04

Very much so, and that there is another side to life. I think my memory of coming out of that situation was it did f feel like just all doom and gloom and exhausting, and but now looking at where I am now, having done that work, there is a completely other side to life that you can experience if you do that work. Actually, not even not even if you do that work, because it will be different for different people. I went into therapy, other people will do other things, you know, that will be supportive to them. But it is about doing the work that will support you to heal.

SPEAKER_01: 39:35

I think the biggest thing is we need to learn to understand ourselves. Because, like I said a few moments ago, when we are in an abusive relationship, we don't look at ourselves at all, we don't um really focus on ourselves because we're so busy trying to survive, to look after our children, trying to stop our partner from doing certain things. But actually, what we need to do, a lot of the change comes by us learning about ourselves more, because the more aware we are of why we, you know, why did we behave in that way, not as in behaving that way to cause the the abuse, abuse is never your fault, ever. But in terms of why I felt that way, or why did I react in that way, or why did I stay so long, or why was I not confident enough in myself afterwards, and now actually becoming aware of ourselves and learning about who we really are and what we really want and how we can go about and get it, and that we can be happy, we can choose how to live our lives, and that is so, so important.

SPEAKER_00: 40:50

And I'm well, I what what you've reminded me of is something a client once shared with me, and this wasn't a domestic violence or domestic abuse situation, but it had been a really difficult, I suppose you could have said it might have been workplace abuse, but it was a very difficult situation that she'd had to deal with at work, and something she said when she was kind of coming through the end of it was, I will never let that define me. So there's something about you know, you might have found yourself in an abusive relationship, but when you're beyond that relationship, don't let it define you because you are this incredible person with all these different talents and qualities. That is who you are, not the person who is in that relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 41:28

I think that's so, so true. You know, we are multifaceted as you know, humans are, we're not one-dimensional, and we have a very fragile side to us. We have a strong side, we have, you know, a feminine side, we have a massive, you know, we have all these bits of us, we have a courageous side, they're all in there, and you know, that fragile side of me, when I look back at the person I was in that relationship, I'm the same person, but that was a very fragile version of me. That person is still in me, that fragile version, and I kind of I nurture it and you know, I kind of recognize um that, but that kind of has also got me to where I am.

SPEAKER_00: 42:10

Yes, gives you gives you certain qualities, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 42:12

So I think you're right, and I think we have to look at ourselves as a whole, and absolutely we we do the best we can in the environment we are at all times, and I think we can't ever do any better for ourselves than that. And I think when you're in an abusive relationship, you know, it's really hard to explain to somebody who's never experienced it what it is actually like. And there is a there is light there at the end of the tunnel, you can get through it, you absolutely can, and you know, I obviously have you have, and I I have kind of that experience has given me my business now. I had no idea that was going to happen. Obviously, I've made choices to kind of make that happen, but I I wouldn't be where I am now without that experience.

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

Thank you for that. That's that's really helpful. What would you say to someone who's listening right now who might be in a difficult relationship but isn't sure whether it's bad enough?

SPEAKER_01: 43:13

Well, if you feel like you are not content in your relationship, and I don't mean oh, I'm just having a bad day or a bad week, if you feel like you're walking on eggshells, you're not sure what to expect from your partner, even if that's kind of the long and the short of it, we should feel like we can be authentically us in our relationship. So we can show up to our partner and or to anybody as us. It is not for us to change ourselves to suit our partner. Let's be really clear on this. That doesn't mean we we're always right and we don't communicate and kind of negotiate or ever see their point of view. It's not about that. We're not about being perfect, it's not about yes, I'm this person who I'm the oracle, and everyone else just kind of bows down. That's not what I'm talking about. But we should be able to be us, and that obviously comes with us being comfortable with the us in the first place. But healthy relationships should have good, open, honest communication. We don't always have to agree, there will be conflict, but we can discuss that conflict, we might shout, we might have an argument, that is okay. We can still respect what the other person is saying and they can respect what we're saying. You don't have to agree though. There should be feeling safe, safe that I can say what I need and how I feel. So if you are feeling like you can't talk openly and honestly to your partner, you don't say things to them about really how you feel, or when you've tried to, they just bat it down, don't listen, or they're like, Oh, don't be so stupid, or you know, you get that sort of um response. They don't respect your boundaries, that you feel like you're not really important in the dynamic, then that doesn't necessarily mean it is abusive, but there clearly needs to be some work on the healthiness of the relationship.

SPEAKER_00: 45:19

So maybe one of the ways of getting health might be couples' therapy.

SPEAKER_01: 45:23

If it's lack of communication if you are feeling like the relationship isn't working quite as well, but actually I do love this person and it is not toxic, so it doesn't have those signs we were sort of talking about earlier, then couples' work can be really useful. Um, couples' work generally does not work in abusive situations. Let's be really clear because it can often be used by the abuser as a way to continue the abuse. I've heard terrible, terrible stories of people in couples' work with an abuser. It is horrific. And, you know, generally things like mediation after divorce after separation, we do not advocate in abusive relationship dynamics. So when you roll back to if you're in the relationship, so there is a difference between abusive and and just unhappy or not domestic abuse.

SPEAKER_00: 46:18

And coming back, because we're right at the beginning, we mentioned the eggshells uh metaphor in the workplace as well. So if someone who is listening to this is experiencing that in the workplace, what would your advice be?

SPEAKER_01: 46:30

I would say if it's your boss, you need to talk to somebody because it's the effect of bullying or control in the workplace, although there aren't the emotions involved like you have at home, you are in work a hell of a lot of time in your week. And it the impact on you as a person can be as devastating almost as when it's in your closest emotional friendship. So it is really, really important to tackle it. But obviously, it can be frightening. And if there's somebody in your organization that you know you trust and you can talk to, and there will normally be policies within organizations about workplace bullying, might be worth reading. You can get them off your website. You don't have to necessarily go to HR, but have a look at what the organization structure and follow that procedure. You could talk to a union representative. So if you're a member of a union, you know, they will have advice for this kind of thing that obviously you can ring outside of work and actually have a conversation, see what get a sense check of what's going on. And you know, if if you really want to um you follow kind of what your process is of who you need to speak to within your organization, try and get things in writing and try and get examples of behavior. You know, if things are happening, keep a bit of a record. Um, that's also good in in your home, actually. You know, if if there are times where this behavior happens, keep a note of it in your diary. Dates, times, was anyone else there? Did anyone witness it? Keep a little log because you may need that if it goes any further. And also you can show someone the pattern of behaviour. Um, that's really important.

SPEAKER_00: 48:17

That's very, very helpful. Vanessa, thank you so much. I'm gonna bring us on to our final question now. Um, there's been so much that's been helpful that you've shared today, but my final question is what's one truth about relationships, boundaries or recovery that you wish every woman, especially women in leadership, knew?

SPEAKER_01: 48:36

Gosh, what an amazing question. How broad is that? That everybody deserves a healthy relationship, and that is one where they are seen, they are heard, they are understood, they can really shine as who they are, and that they feel safe to set boundaries. Boundaries are our gatekeeper of essentially telling people what behaviour is suitable to us, and we all deserve to be able to set boundaries and have them respected. So please just know your worth in your relationship, and you do deserve to be treated with respect and value in your relationship, and actually whether that's at work or at home.

SPEAKER_00: 49:27

Thank you so much, Vanessa. This has been a really, really enlightening conversation and a very deep conversation. I'm going to ask you to share with me, not you don't have to do it now, but if you can share with me organizations that people can get help with or support from, and I'll put those into the show notes to make sure that they're available for people. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01: 49:47

Thank you so much, Mary. I've really loved our chat and um thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00: 49:51

Before we wrap up, I want to share something with you. Do you ever feel like your confidence isn't really the issue, but wish you could strengthen your ability to deal with things that keep chipping away at it? The bias, the double standards, the pressure to prove yourself, to name just a few. That's exactly why I created Exploding the Confidence Myth, a three-month programme for women leaders who are ready to change that story. It combines one-to-one coaching, group coaching, and a powerful in-person workshop. The next programme starts at the beginning of November, with the workshop taking place on the 7th of November at the Conort Rutans in Holburn, London. Past participants have described it as validating, supportive and stretching. They've become more visible, raised their value, increased their financial return, and broken through patterns that have held them back. But perhaps most importantly, they've gained a deeper sense of okayness with who they are, recognising they already have something valuable to offer. If this resonates with you or you know someone who would benefit, you'll find all the details in the show notes. I'd love you to join us. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.