She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women

Episode 21 - Women-Only Leadership Programmes: Fix or Future? with Dr Rob Sayers-Brown

• Mary Gregory • Season 1 • Episode 21

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Are women-only leadership programmes a solution—or part of the problem? Dr Rob Sayers Brown joins me to explore leadership identity, human vs social capital, and why inclusive design must go deeper than “fix the woman.”

In this candid conversation, occupational psychologist Dr Rob Sayers Brown unpacks what actually helps women (and other under-represented leaders) thrive. Drawing on his professional doctorate research into women-only leadership programmes—and his lived experience as a gay man—Rob explains why leadership is still shaped by narrow, gendered and heteronormative norms, and what to do about it.

We explore the difference between human capital (confidence, clarity, psychological wellbeing, leadership identity) and social capital (networks, advocacy, visibility)—and why the second is still harder to access if you don’t fit the “default” mould. Rob shares a practical Identity Map tool that reframes lived experience into recognised strengths, and we dig into programme design that avoids the “fix the woman” trap through intersectionality, strengths-based psychology, and acceptance & commitment coaching.

We also tackle the often-ignored gate at the start: how participants are selected. Rob argues for transparent, inclusive criteria that prioritise predictors of growth (drive, curiosity, self-awareness, interpersonal skill) over tenure or tap-on-the-shoulder nominations.

You’ll learn:
• Why women-only spaces still matter—and how to pair them with ally/line-manager learning
• How identity collisions can forge leadership strengths (resilience, empathy, systems awareness)
• Practical ways to design programmes that build authentic confidence and real transfer of learning
• A simple reframe organisations can adopt today: move from “we are inclusive” to “we’re working on it—honestly”

Connect with Rob on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/robsayersbrown/

And also at Kiddy & Partners - https://gateleyplc.com/people/dr-rob-sayers-brown/


🔗 Connect with Mary: marygregory.com

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

SPEAKER_02:

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Too Leads Collective Podcast. Well, my guest today is Dr. Rob Saiyas Brown. And who's doctors explored women and leadership programs? As a gay man in a hexonormative professional world, and that was quite a word to say. Rob brings a powerful personal lens to the topic of inclusion and exclusion and leadership development. With a clear grounded psychometrics, group facilitation and talent consulting, Rob has worked with organizations to develop leaders, often against the backdrop of deeply embedded narratives about gender, power, and belonging. In this episode, the intention is that we will explore the question Are women-only leadership programs a solution or part of the problem? And how do our social identities help or hinder the way we see ourselves and our teams as leaders? So let's move to Rob straight away with a very warm welcome and thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. I'm so, so excited for this conversation.

SPEAKER_02:

Me too. It's absolutely perfect for this podcast actually because it's all about gender equity. I also, as a coach and facilitators know, run women's leadership programs, women only, and have a very clear reasoning behind that. So I'm really curious to hear what that comes through in your research. Let's see what is competition. I'm trusting the process.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Anyway, let's start with you first of all, though. Can you tell us a bit about your career journey and how, you know, what led you into organizational psychology and what you're doing today?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. So I've come to this party of occupational psychology relatively later in life, actually. I um started off um my career really in retail banking and was a branch manager for a number of years before moving into project management. And it was when I was a project manager at PENA, actually, who you know the organization that we both know so well, um, where I really started to fall in love with the idea of understanding what makes people tick at work, um, and was supporting a fabulous bunch of occupational psychologists in their work and was bitten by the bug right then. Um so got myself qualified in the number of psychometrics, did my masters in occupational psychology, um, did another master's in psychology after that as well. Two masters. So two masters, two masters, and then did my professional doctorate in occupational psychology two years ago, it was now, um, that really just it it was it embedded really why I got into this field in the first place, which was to support people, to help people thrive. I think a large part of my career, a golden thread, has always been about people. But also, Mary, I'm very nosy as well about people. And I think that exactly, and I think that has served me well in my career. Um, and and certainly that the doctoral journey has been both a personal and professional reckoning, really, in some ways. And I'm sure we'll dig into that. But yeah, I couldn't see myself in any other field. Oh, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm getting a sense of you're just feeling fully aligned and also fulfilled in what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I think I walk away from each day knowing that I've made a difference. Even if that difference is small, um, I often say that if I'm able to help an individual have the um the penny drop moment um about how they're showing up and why they're showing up in that way and what what could be getting in the way sometimes for them. That for me is a job well done.

SPEAKER_02:

Fantastic. And uh some of the things you're saying, you remind me I had another guest, Dr. Louise Austin, on a few weeks ago, and she talked about her PhD and what she got from the end of it was that you know, she obviously delved into a topic very deeply, which you have done as well. But actually, what came out of it for her eventually was there's so much I still don't know. Did you end up with that sense for yourself?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I I walked into this journey thinking I'll get my doctorate, I'll be the oracle, I'll know everything there is to know. And that so isn't the case. If anything, it it's made me even more curious about what is happening now and supporting up-and-coming psychologists in their own uh research and practice. Um, but that real enjoyment of digging in, digging in and understanding what's going on here is another kind of piece that drives me, I think. So the doctorate has absolutely added fuel to that point.

SPEAKER_02:

And the real depth nature of it is what I'm hearing. Absolutely. So so often in this world, and particularly in the world of psychology as well, people are looking for quick fixes. Yeah. And actually, the whole depth piece is so, so important because actually that's how you create sustainable change is to go deeper.

SPEAKER_01:

So true. Yeah, so true. And you know, a lot of the organizations that I work with, and and I absolutely get it, you know, there are limited resources, but let's say we're designing a leadership development program, um, this this shouldn't be a conveyor belt of modules that that won't make the learning stick. Let's let's understand what's really going on. Let's take the time to understand what are the development needs. Because if if we're designing a program and let's say a module is about leading with empathy, if you've already got leaders who are really empathetic, why? Why would they need that program? Let's focus on the things that are really going to matter and shift the dial for them, which is why I think a training needs analysis or some type of assessment that just helps people understand where their strengths are and where their development areas lie. Let's use that, that measurement to inform the program that follows. And that's where magic happens because it's tailored directly to those needs rather than just being a whistle stop tool or an off-the-shelf topic.

SPEAKER_02:

Which isn't necessarily designed for what you're needing to do. Hopefully. Yes. Okay. So, but your work is around leadership identity. So, what inspired your interest in that? And specifically in researching women-only programs as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely. Uh, and I suppose the the focus on women-only programs is is twofold. Um, I mean, first, I'm a gay man, um, and at some point in my career, I really started to wonder how much of that part of me influences how I lead and the strengths that I bring to the table. And more importantly, why do leadership development programs never talk about that facet of my identity? Um, and I've attended a few programs over the years, some great, some really quite forgettable. Um, and I'll be honest, they did. They did equip me with some skills and tools and frameworks that I can use, but rarely, if ever, did they really acknowledge how my identity shaped how I showed up as a leader? So that was really the first part. The second is that I'm a a brother and a son to two fabulous female leaders, and I've often heard you know, secondhand from them in terms of the kind of clandestine, innocuous comments that are sometimes made about their gender and how they're showing up and what the impact of that is, and having to navigate a world that really wasn't built for them. So it was it was twofold, really, coming both from very, very personal places. Um, but if I link it back to the first point around um me as a gay man in the leadership sphere, I was so frustrated that there wasn't a great body of research around the LGBTQ plus community in leadership. And it felt as though that it didn't matter. We didn't matter. And I think that that was a really kind of confronting notion for me, particularly that you know, with what we're seeing at the moment with the massive backlash around diversity, equity, and inclusion in the states, and also here in the UK now, um, given the the High Court's ruling on the very narrow view of gender, um, it felt even more important to support my community and to fight against what feels like a systemic and systematic erosion of our identity. Um, you know, the message that I wanted to send is that we matter, and here's why. Um and so I'm hoping that this research has kind of added to that voice because my doctorate focused on both women-only leadership development programs and what works, what doesn't, what are the key topics and concepts that that are really impactful, and then try to apply some of those learnings to the LGBTQ plus population because, as I say, there was limited research that looked at LGBTQ plus in leadership. And the great thing is is that there are there are some synergies that that that find that the individuals on women-only programs find really beneficial, that actually my research for LD LGBTQ plus individuals in leadership also found really useful. And the way that I I kind of reconcile that is that women leaders, LGBTQ plus leaders, their paths to leadership are very intertwined. Both of both of those paths kind of challenge the very narrow um gendered heteronormative views that we as a society have of leadership. So um homophobia and misogyny come from very similar places, which is about um ostracising those who don't fit the mould. And so my research was was almost double double whammy in those senses, looking at women-only programs, but then shifting the lens to LGBTQ plus leaders and what what could be used from that already established body of women-only research to think about how we could apply that to a different underrepresented group. Um, and uh yeah, the results were were fascinating in that sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, we'll dig into those in a minute. I just want to check because you you you know you talked about your mum and your sister and the biases that they experienced. Do you feel as a gay man you've you've experienced similar biases?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I feel as though the certainly very early on in my career, and now Mary, we're talking like 20 years ago, and thankfully things have shifted in the positive, I think, um, overall. Um, but there were certain things very early on in my career where I felt as though I had to cover, I had to mute aspects of myself to be able to navigate those biases um and and to put myself and to almost remould myself into something that would be more acceptable for others. Um and so, yes, absolutely, absolutely. I I mean that there are things that come to my mind where I where there was suddenly silence as I entered into a room, or that um even when we were out-socialising, and this is many years ago, out-socialising with um some work colleagues, and they someone said to me that uh lager is a gay drink. And and that's actually res that that stuck with me even 20 20 or so years later, um, because it's it's so foundational. I felt personally attacked. I didn't say anything at the time, of course, because as I say, you're trying to mask these these aspects of who you are. But the fact now that you and I are talking in 2025, and I that is still in my memory, I think just goes to show how how deeply that that stayed with me and struck me.

SPEAKER_02:

And that is such a great example of a throwaway comment with someone totally unaware of their biases and how they might be impacting somebody, but picked up by you and held by you for many, many years. And I get a sense of what you reminded me of is you know back in the 80s and 90s, I can remember big shoulder, yeah, women, big shoulder pads trying to make ourselves a look bigger. And that was all the trend at the time, but also the whole fitness thing that they were trying to emulate the way men were in order to get ahead. But I think it has shifted, thankfully, because there is now it's more about holistic and actually women bring a different quality at the end of the game, that probably brings a different quality to the table to an uh the average sexual man. And it's like how can we blend all these different elements? That's what diversity is, really, is making the most of all the different qualities that whatever our gender, we contribute them.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And I think, you know, like we've talked about, things have shifted, thankfully, over the last sort of 20 years or so. But I think there are these prevailing views, particularly prevailing views of leadership, um, that that still prevail. And I'm sure that you've seen the the wheel of privilege, which puts all of those characteristics that are closer to the center, like white, male, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, neurotypical, all of these aspects, all of these kind of identities closer to the center of this wheel are the ones that get access to the power very, very easily. Um, and with power comes leadership positions. And those, as you come further out of the centre, LGBTQ plus individuals, female leaders, um the neurodivergent individuals, these individuals have to work harder still to get access to roles, resources. Um, and it's this societal context that is still very much prevailing and and still holds the still holds a lot of weight actually, um, around who gets ahead. Yes, and why.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And of course, when you get ahead, when you get into the leadership roles, leadership is influence. So you then have the influence, which I think is part of the reason it's so difficult to shift the system.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Because those people that you describe that are at the centre of that wheel of of power get the power and therefore sustain it.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, with that, I think there is an aspect of you know, advocating for people who are similar to those individuals as well. So ultimately, what you have in a very broad rush set brush sense is white, able bodied, uh, neurotypical heterosexual men advocating for other white, able-bodied, neurotypical heterosexual men, which then starts the cycle again, which means it's even more challenging for those outside of the center to get access because they are having to constantly justify even why they are in the mix when it comes to things like leadership. So, again, working even harder to get the same um level of recognition and power and influence and sway.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's exhausting. It is exhausting, which is I suppose why you know the the shift is towards how can we shift the system rather than supporting women to fix themselves or gay men to fix themselves. It's a system that needs to shift in some way. Which we'll we'll come to in a in a minute. But let's move into that. So you've done in-depth research into how leadership identities are shaped. What are some of the key findings that came through your PhD?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and it's really interesting because I think if we think about our if we think about leadership and what makes a leader, certainly through my research, uh what what emerged was two aspects of of capital, um, human capital and and social capital. So human capital really are the internal resources a leader brings, like their competence, their clarity of purpose, their psychological well-being, and a sense of leadership identity. Um and I think for for many underrepresented groups, authenticity, because authenticity is a large part of that leadership identity, authenticity is a luxury. They aren't always afforded. So societal and organizational expectations often force those who don't fit the mould to suppress or edit parts of themselves in order to be taken seriously. And over time, it's that that can erode self-belief. It means that we have to increase our self-monitoring, we're always aware. Um, and and often, too, it can reduce the behaviours that are essential for good leadership, like confidence, resilience, and adaptability. Um, so that's really human capital and leadership identity forms a large part of that. And then we have social capital, which is just as important really, but often even harder to access for those who are underrepresented. Social capital is about who you know, um, who advocates for you and how visible you are to those who make decisions, and it includes things like our networks, our mentors, our sponsorship, all of the relational infrastructure, let's say, that helps leaders grow. And in predominant leadership spaces where social capital is built, um it's still held uh it's still built really based around traditional norms of masculinity and heteronormativity. Um they and by that I mean they tend to favor those who are who already fit the societal mould. Again, often men, often white, already in the room. So when women and LGBTQ plus individuals, um, especially those who don't align with those dominant identities, try to build that capital, they're not just networking, they're navigating dynamics which really subtly, and maybe not so subtly, question whether they belong there at all. And that means that there's less access to both of those those forms of capital, those stretch assignments, those opportunities to be seen, and even fewer champions really reeling to advocate for us when it comes to things that matter the most. So um human capital and social capital were two kind of really key concepts that emerged from my research. But this point around leadership identity was was the thing that stood out for me in terms of what what is one of the really beneficial concepts to to explore within these programs? How can we create the space for individuals to really ask themselves what what makes me who I am as a leader? What identities do I possess? And rather thinking about those as a barrier to progression, it was about looking at the intersection of those identities and from those intersections, what strengths were emerging from those? Um, and how can I use those to support me in wading through the treacle that is the societal and organizational context that puts me at a disadvantage? How can I lean in to those strengths to help me navigate that path? And that was really the concept that stuck with me, that really came to the fore, I think, in terms of you know the key topics that that emerge that really support participants of these programs.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And so how have you applied that in those insights that have come through? Because they sound quite heavyweight to me, you know, and and very, very, very deep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, very, very deep. And so, you know, part of our um well, I've tried to operationalise this in a really practical way. And you know, I think the the academic versus practitioner divide is something for another time with a large box of wine. Um, but I've tried to operationalise these in a very practical way so that they make sense for participants on the programs that Kiddy and Partners produce, um, where we create that space for people to really pause and check in with themselves and create what I've called an identity map that puts them at the center, um, so much so that they draw a circle and write me in the middle. And then from that, really consider what are the identities that I possess, um, both in terms of gender, ethnicity, social identities, even. And from that, then too, we're we're going we're going further, we're thinking about what are the values then that I have that emerge from having those identities in my possession. You know, if I am a carer of someone, you know, does that mean that I I perhaps feel as though I've got higher levels of empathy? Or if I am a gay man, have I gone through life knowing that I am different to the heteronormative space that is this world? So that that might give me resilience. Um, and then from that, even further, thinking about from the intersection of those identities, the values that come with them, what are the strengths that I've got in my possession, um, both recognized and unrecognised, and how can I use that within my leadership, particularly when I feel as though I'm challenged or having to navigate waters that that are full of crocodiles, let's say, how can I use those and lean into those? So we take a really practical way of exploring that, but also thinking about okay, going forward, how can I use these strengths that emerge from my identities in a more deliberate way?

SPEAKER_02:

I this you know I'm quite inspired by what you've shared there because it sounds like a really rich process for someone to go through to actually look at what are the different identities, but then the strength focus of that. Because so often we don't even think about ourselves. And we just keep we just keep on keep on going, sort of thing. And to actually have that time to reflect on the many different roles and identities you take in your life and what strengths and values come out of that sounds like a real gift, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

I have goosebumps when I see people being able to see themselves more clearly and have that that sense of of clarity. Um and and I think reframing, reframing their their struggles, and not to discount them at all, this isn't about discounting those struggles, but it's recognizing that um strengths that emerge from the fire, um, and they're forged in fire, really. And what we often forget to use is that aspect of reframing to think about this is what I've gone through, but how could I turn this on my head to actually think about what are the strengths that emerge from that and how could I use them um more deliberately in my leadership practice?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, fantastic. Okay, let's move on then and have a look at the um reflection on women-only programs. So, you know, do you think women-only programs reinforce gender difference or help redress the power balance? I suppose that's for me is the million-dollar question.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think uh a large part of my research really looked at the the fact that these programs can't exist in a vacuum. Um and uh, you know, certainly part of operationalizing this in a very practical way is that alongside our own program at Kidean Partners, we we have a set of modules that are for line managers and advocates that really help them to recognize the power that they wield. Um and power not just from being in a leadership role, but typically from their own identities, um, which means that they're starting further ahead than those who are on one of our programs. So, really helping to reinforce this message that as a leader, but also as someone in possession of characteristics that are that uh have a greater weight in society, how can they channel that in a way that is an ally and a supporter of those who are underrepresented? Um, and so that runs alongside our programs as well. But the the program in itself and women in the women-only leadership programs are absolutely vital, absolutely vital because of all those things that we've talked about in terms of the side societal context that makes underrepresented groups in general kind of question, well, I don't belong here, or what can I bring to the table? Um they absolutely have a place for us to explore more deeply what makes me uniquely me, and how can I use that more effectively in my leadership to support me in that uphill struggle that exists because I'm not in a possession of those characteristics that society deems as really impactful. Um how can I lean into those? So it certainly, in my view, and the uh the the research that I conducted and the the the participants of the the programmes that I reviewed found that these type of programs have a place have a place in helping them recognise and celebrate their strengths in a world that doesn't celebrate.

SPEAKER_02:

That sounds so positive. And I'm so glad that's the that's what came out because certainly my belief is that the reason I'm a real advocate for them is that women just find it so much easier to talk freely when it's a group of women. And if you include men in that conversation, it tends to affect the dynamics of what goes on in the organization and women don't feel so able to talk freely. And I think that ability just to open up. Um but also the whole thing about recognising authentically what you bring, your your contribution, your strengths and the impact that has on the organization really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I think you know the the space within women only leadership programs is and a lot of this rises on the strength of the facilitator here, too, is to create that space, to hold that space for people to share. Um, because they do have, they'll have very different lived experiences. Of course they will, but they are united by one um uh one being that they are a female leader, and so that that kind of united nature of these programs is is such such a powerful moment for people to dig in, be vulnerable, um, explore, self-discover. And it's that that makes these programs so so important.

SPEAKER_02:

And I love that you've got the context of you know, allies and line managers and the people that support the women on the programs having their own program going along in parallel to that. So they are better at the end of the day, they'll be more enlightened leaders.

SPEAKER_01:

That's exactly it. And I think you know, the the the focus on those sessions is around intersectionality, um, you know, a concept that was coined by Kimberly Crenshaw around kind of systemic issues um within um ethnicity. And uh, you know, we we use it within the lens of leadership. And what does this mean for those who are underrepresented, but also for those who are represented, you know, who are the leaders and managers of these um individuals on the programs? So it brings into sharpen sharper focus their their privilege ultimately and how to use that and channel that in a way that is going to uplift others rather than hold them back.

SPEAKER_02:

So, you know, you mentioned having sort of allyship programs going alongside a woman's program. How can we design women's programs to make sure that we don't inadvertently reinforce the idea that women need fixing?

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly that. And I I I we are aligned on this, and I know this because you've used the word fixing. Um, and I think often, like I mentioned, you know, as a gay man, certainly it felt as though my sexuality didn't matter when I was on leadership development programs, or even worse, it was seen as a distraction. Um, but I think leadership is gendered. Leadership is gendered. Um, and we have to recognize the space that gender plays in leadership. And so when we're designing these programs, we need to recognise that. We need to recognise the societal and organizational context in which we're operating. Um, this can't just be about fixing the female leader and supporting them in acting like their male counterpart. Of course, there will be certain foundational leadership skills that will be important, but that is in the absence of gender. Things like confidence, networking, conflict resolution, all of these things are important for leadership, but to root them with a gender-based lens is key when it comes to women-only programs, as well as taking this lens of intersectionality as well to help people understand how their identities are showing up and how they can lean into those. I think often when it comes to women-only programs, certainly what I saw was this fix the women approach, um, which was very frustrating. Um, but I think if we're embedding core principles, and certainly at Kiddian Partners, ours are intersectionality, which we've already talked about, and being able to understand those identity dynamics, but also linking that with positive psychology theories to which is the strength-based lens here, um, to help people navigate that path more effectively. Additionally, I think there is a key aspect here of acceptance and commitment therapy. And I don't really like the word therapy because it sounds very clinical, and of course it is a clinical practice, but acceptance and commitment coaching is what is what I would call it. And there is a particular module within our program that looks at now that we've identified what our um identities are and the values and strengths that that really emerge from them, how can I use that as my guiding light, my north star when I'm in those situations that really challenge me? Um, and that's what acceptance and commitment coaching is. It it allows us to move towards those things that we truly value. Again, being authentic in that way to help us navigate those muddier waters. And in leveraging acceptance and commitment coaching, we are supporting our participants in building their resilience, their confidence, their sense of self again to help them navigate those contexts that put them at a disadvantage. So I think it's it can't just be about giving tools and frameworks for an individual to use. It has to go deeper. It has to go deeper, it has to go below the surface so that the the participants walk away from the entire journey with that real authentic confidence about who they are, what they bring, and how they can lean into that in those moments of challenge.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm loving this, Rob. Thank you so much. It's resonating massively. And I've got a question which I can't resist asking. Sure. Which is as a facilitator and coach of women on and on women programs, I'm curious, what would you want someone like me to consider or rethink?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, what a fabulous question. I I think I think it's it's going to be around the what we've really just we've touched on. Actually, no, it's not. It's not around that, Mary. It's it's around the the access to these programs. Now, this was something else that my my research um looked at was who and how gets access to these programs. And across many of the studies that I reviewed as part of my research, one of the most consistent barriers was the recruitment process for these programs itself. Programs often prioritize formal criteria like tenure, length of service, seniority, or their academic background. And while those, whilst they might look like fair measures on the surface, they actually don't tell us much about the person's capacity to grow or their potential to lead. And what they do reflect is privilege. Of course, who went to university, who didn't, who's been here longer, who hasn't. And what's often overlooked are the qualities that matter most for learning and development: ambition, curiosity, self-awareness, interpersonal skill drive, the stuff that doesn't always appear on paper, but that shapes someone's ability to stretch, adapt, and lead. And what was really frustrating reading the articles that I reviewed was that it was a tap on the shoulder nomination or made behind closed doors based on those aspects of tenure, seniority, academic achievements, etc. So what we've got here is a really significant takeaway, and something that I would encourage all developers, facilitators to advocate for is if we want our programs to be inclusive, start by making the selection criteria inclusive and transparent. Widen that criteria, look for predictors of growth, not just social status. Because without that, we are just reinforcing barriers to development.

SPEAKER_02:

So what would be a predictor of growth?

SPEAKER_01:

So what we would be looking for are, and again, leaning on the academic research here, when we're looking at learning transfer, someone's um desire to learn and grow, we are looking at things like drive, curiosity, self-awareness, interpersonal skill. Um again, some of those things that aren't always visible, again, for the underrepresented group, because we aren't always visible. So, how can we objectively measure that? And the best tools for that really are those best-in-class psychometrics, something that can give us some insight into those characteristics that fuel potential growth rather than just relying on this tap on the shoulder, archaic methodology, subjective, exactly that. Um, let's look at the the real things that predict someone's ability to learn and then apply that learning in new contexts. And that really comes back to aspects of personality and thinking style.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, okay. I shall go away and think about that then with regards to my own programme. That's that's that's very very helpful. Um, so let's just move on a bit about your own personal identity because you are very open about being a gay man and the differences you've experienced um through your life and through your career. You've been very candid about it. How do you think being a gay man has shaped your perspective on leadership?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's it certainly has made me more resolute that I have a place within leadership. Um and I think it's also made me recognise that I have valuable strengths to bring to the table. I'm no longer apologetic about it, I no longer take a covering masking approach, and I understand that I'm very privileged that I can say that as well. Um, but because of course we live in in the United Kingdom where there is much more acceptance around the LGBTQ plus community. But I think certainly for me it's recognising that the strengths that are forged in that fire are something that I bring uniquely to an organizational context. You know, as a gay man who has to or has had to constantly scan the environment to make sure that it's safe to be me and to understand the dynamics that are at play there. I feel now as a leader that I can be quite shrewd and empathetic. I'm I'm very careful around um the dynamics that are in the room. Of course, it it is strengthened my resilience as well, I think, because I've had to go through certain things where I've been challenged and I've been attacked either in a very um underhanded way or a very visible way. Um and I think it's it's also giving me a real sense of ambition and drive again too. It it's made me want to to move forward, but also to for fight for others to be able to move forward as well. And I I think too, in my in the second part of my my research, it was that looked at taking an intersectional lens to leadership and LGBTQ plus individuals and exploring how how they came together. A lot of the the individuals that I interviewed talk about that that coming together as a collision, uh, which sounds very violent, actually, doesn't it? But I think it it just shows the the weight of those two identities and the energy that is released when they do collide. Um and so I think from that collision, it it's it's made me realise through through speaking to the participants of my study that there are strengths that come from that, from from that adversity. Um, things like I've talked about ambition, resilience, empathy, which then means that I am trying to support other people who might be underrepresented. I'm trying to advance other people as well who might not have had a voice before, or I'm trying to create a level playing field in terms of in terms of justice. If I see unfairness, I will call that out. And the more that I listened to the participants of my study, the more that I recognize that is my view of leadership in the fact that it isn't one-dimensional. Leadership is multidimensional because we as human beings are multidimensional and we need to learn to use the strengths that come from the various collisions of our identities.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I hear it's really strengthened you as an ally, an advocate.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's as I say, it's come from a very personal place, um, but professionally it's made me grow and recognise that as a as a human, as a psychologist, as a gay man, that these identities come together and manifest in me wanting to support those who, like me, have been underrepresented before. Um, and that really brings us full circle to why this research kind of existed in the first place and why I went down this path to give to give a voice to those who are, from a society perspective, potentially seen as voiceless.

SPEAKER_02:

So I think we've already talked quite a lot about the parallels between women and LGBTQ community and professionals. But what are some of the differences?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it this is where perhaps visible and invisible identities come in. And you know, when I said that I I come to this conversation with a lot of privilege, I mean that because I am white and I am a man. Um those are the things that people can immediately see, and I'm also very tall as well, at six foot two, I can be quite imposing and I recognise that. Um but what's invisible here is my sexual identity um being a gay man. And I think that is the key difference here. Um is if we take those kind of characteristics, let's say, um for for female leaders, it's gender is right there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you can't you can't deny it.

SPEAKER_01:

You can't deny it, you can't deny it. And and I think that is that is a s a stark difference, of course, is that that identity is very visible. Um and which means that perhaps if I was a straight man, maybe I would be thinking about things in a slightly different way, but because of having that invisible identity of being a gay man, it it's made me even more acutely aware that I do have a lot of privilege because that identity is invisible. Um, and of course, with that visibility that comes with being a female leader or of a or of having an ethnicity that falls outside of that that white sphere, that's another visible, very visible identity that can creep in and and pose an additional barrier ultimately. So that for me is the key difference, the visible versus the invisible.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yes, very good. Okay, let's move on then to just consider moving into the future. What do you think a truly inclusive leadership development program would look like for you going forward into the future?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the first part is is recognising uh for one that uh an inclusive organization is a a thing of fair fairy tale. We're not just going to arrive and poof, we are an inclusive organization. Um it was that easy. If it was, if it was. Um but I think be organizations will always be political and um always working towards being an inclusive organization because we as human beings we have biases. Um as a society, we have biases. So unless those biases change, which won't happen, you know. That would be a miracle. Um I think because we are as a human being, we are innately faulty in the way that we are wired because of our biases. It will always be a continual journey rather than be a destination to be an inclusive organization. So I think we need to recognise that context too. I think a development program that focuses on the core principles of intersectionality and positive psychology for the participants of those programs is key, but also creating enough space for them to be able to focus on their well-being as well. You know, like we talked about, acceptance and commitment coaching can be really helpful because, like you yourself, Mary said, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. So we need to support and and heighten participants in own uh internal resources to support them through that journey. Um, but also supplementing whatever journey that we produce with some support for those who are leading these individuals, for those who are advocates and allies, and understanding why their voice, their power, their privilege is so important to help those who are underrepresented. That for me is where the magic happens. Um and and where things are encouraged, i.e., a strengths-based lens to really celebrate and utilise those strengths in a way that feels incredible.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh we're totally aligned on that. I really, I really think strengths-based approaches don't go the way forward. And we mentioned at the beginning how this is tough times for diversity and um inclusivity at the moment. You know, lots of organisations are uh cutting back on their budgets. What do you think an organization is serious about equity in leadership? What's one tip you would recommend they take?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh that's a brilliant question, once again. And I I I don't know if I would just be able to stick to one.

SPEAKER_02:

What suppose my take is what's the what's the smallest thing that would have the biggest difference is another way of looking at it. Because it's got to be doable and easy to implement.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think uh a lot of organizations that I work with, um, I don't and I don't think there's a great deal of maliciousness in this, but I think there is a we're we're an inclusive organization. Of course we're an inclusive organization. We value everyone. I think we need to stop peddling this narrative, um, instead reframe this to say, we want to be, we want to be, and we recognise that we're not currently. We've got pockets of brilliance, but we've also got pockets of things that aren't working, and we're looking to address those. Um, but being honest, being honest with people, because otherwise it becomes almost like a false promise. It feels performative as well. So I really think confronting this narrative to say we want to be, we're not there, and we recognise that.

SPEAKER_02:

So what I'm hearing is you're inviting the organization to be authentic about where it is around gender equity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, authenticity breeds authenticity. It does.

SPEAKER_02:

So let's not try and let's not pretend that we're there because we're not exactly yeah. And what gives you hope right now in this space?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it's as we've talked about, it's a very challenging time, I think, within this space. And it's frightening, Mary, if I'm honest too. Um I think what gives me hope is speaking to organisational sponsors who care deeply about this this topic and supporting underrepresented groups, they're not giving up. Um that gives me hope. That gives me hope because it it makes me recognize that we're not in this alone, that we we we do have, you know, despite the headlines, despite the the posts that we're seeing across social media and this this backlash, people who are sponsoring these programs, sponsoring equity, diversity, and inclusion, they're not giving up. They're fighting the good fight. Um and for me, that that is the hope. That is the hands around the candle protecting it from a very strong wind. And I think if it wasn't for them, I I would be steadily losing hope.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And you are one of them.

SPEAKER_01:

I am one of them.

SPEAKER_02:

Everyone who is a sta, you know, everyone who's involved in enabling gender equity and parity, you are we are all part of that community in some paper form.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And I think we need to we need to stick together. We need to share our insights, our knowledge with each other. Um, because if we don't, then we're just reinforcing barriers that already exist. So collectively, we need to support each other to tear them down. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, Rob, you have shared some fabulous insights and lots and lots of depth in today's conversation. How can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, LinkedIn is probably the easiest, I would say, or or emailing me uh at rob.sayers brown at kiddyandpartners.com. But yes, please do, please do reach out and let's let's fight the good fight together because it's so, so needed, particularly in this day and age.

SPEAKER_02:

Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming and spending your time with me today.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Mary.

SPEAKER_02:

Before we wrap up, I want to share something with you. Do you want to feel like your confidence?

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Mary Gregory

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