Episode 22 - The Power of Permission: Speaking Up With Intention with Ronke Kokoruwe , TEDx Coach

What would change if you gave yourself full permission—not just to lead—but to speak with courage, clarity and intention? In this uplifting conversation, lawyer-turned-coach, TEDx licence holder and “Queen of Joy” Ronke Kokoruwe shares how women can stop waiting to “feel confident” and start speaking from intention, presence and joy.

We trace Ronke’s journey from the law to coaching, unpack the myth of confidence, and explore practical ways to move from freeze to flow. Ronke introduces powerful prompts (“Why am I talking?” and “Why am I there?”), the role of breathwork, journaling and visualisation, and how “permission” unlocks action—on stages, in meetings and in life. We also discuss inside-out communication, naming our saboteurs, and why levitas (lightness) belongs alongside gravitas in leadership. If your voice has been hovering at the edge of the room, this episode will nudge it centre stage—joyfully.

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello and welcome to E-Leads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory, and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead us all today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. My question for today what would change if you gave yourself full permission, not just to lead, but to speak with courage, clarity, and intention? Today's guest is someone whose energy and presence lights up every room she enters. Ronke Kokurue began her career as a lawyer, but her path has taken her far beyond the courtroom. Now, an accomplished coach, speaker, and TEDx license holder, Ronke empowers women to show up fully and speak up powerfully, especially in environments where their voices have historically been underrepresented. Whether you dread public speaking, as many of us do, struggle to own your voice in high state meetings, or feel like confidence always seems to be just out of reach. I hope that this conversation will resonate deeply with you. What I love about Ronke's philosophy is that it's rooted in joy, in intention and in permission. Permission to take up space, to speak with authenticity, and to align how you lead with how you communicate. I'm really looking forward to exploring and exchanging ideas on the myths of confidence, the emotional work behind powerful presence, and what it means to truly lead from the inside out. Ronke, a very warm welcome to you.

SPEAKER_01: 2:03

I am so delighted to be here with you. Thanks so much for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00: 2:09

Oh, it's my absolute pleasure, and I'm so happy to have you here and grateful that you've given up the time. So we are going to kick off really first of all by exploring your career and your journey through law and being a lawyer. So you started out as a lawyer. What actually drew you into the legal profession originally?

SPEAKER_01: 2:30

That's a great question. And I often talk about starting right from the beginning. So I'm delighted that we can start from that place. So I grew up in Nigeria. Both my parents are lawyers. And so from a very young age, I felt called really by the subjects that I loved, by the strutting around in my mother's wig and gown as a young girl. And um really just by a desire to use my voice, I suppose. I didn't know that that was the language then, but there was something about there was something that I was drawn to about using my voice, whether that was in singing or in different spaces like that, that made me feel like the law was a really strong option for me. And that was all I knew. That was all I expected to become. That was the path, that was the dream.

SPEAKER_00: 3:29

Yes. And how was it actually being a lawyer as a woman? Because it's a it's it's an it's a dominated profession, male-dominated profession.

SPEAKER_01: 3:37

It is.

SPEAKER_00: 3:38

Although many more women lawyers are around nowadays, it's still pretty male-dominated. So, what was it like sort of creating your path in that profession?

SPEAKER_01: 3:45

Yes, so thankfully, as you mentioned, um, the tide is changing and we are grateful for that. I remember actually when I was studying for my undergraduates, a wonderful lecturer said to me, She said, Ronke, the truth is that you are going to have to work twice as hard because you are a woman and you are a black woman. And she said it from a place of genuine kindness. She was really seeking to set me up for success. And I'm grateful that she said that because I was pretty new in the UK. I'd come from Nigeria as a 17-year-old to pursue this path and this degree. And the journey, I look back on it and I think of different situations where it's only in hindsight that I look back and think, oh, that was somewhat interesting. Um, but I must admit that I had some really solid bosses. I had managers who were very supportive. I remember in my very last legal role, um, I had a boss who was a male South African gentleman who was very supportive of the work that I did and celebrated my work. And I'm grateful for people like him because it wasn't always the easiest of parts. It wasn't always easy to take up vocal space to stand firm in arguments that I would make in court when I was up against more senior male lawyers. And so as I look back now, I'm genuinely grateful that I that I stood firm really in the pursuit of what felt difficult until the time came when I thought, actually, I'd done my part. There's got to be more.

SPEAKER_00: 5:35

What I hear is you had some real, really good support, some good mentors who really had your back. And I'm curious though about some of the challenges you did face as a woman of colour, as a woman in law. What were some of the challenges you faced that might have stopped your voice?

SPEAKER_01: 5:50

How did I think about it, Mary? A lot of them were internal. Oh, they were internal because, as I said, I was surrounded by many a supportive just group of mentors and leaders. And so when I think about what it really was that got in the way for me, even though 100% I am completely aware that there's lots of systemic issues and there are really difficult challenges that many women like myself, black women, navigate, there weren't that many that I can think of for myself, but I can think of the voices in my head that said to me, I didn't belong, the voices that said I wasn't good enough, the voices that said I didn't go to the right schools or the right universities. And more than the systemic issues that surrounded me, which I'm more aware of now than I was then, it was the internal struggles. It was the internal challenges that would have stopped me from putting my voice out there, from pursuing um bigger opportunities, from growing in my legal career. That would be what was the biggest struggle for me.

SPEAKER_00: 6:59

So it's a real case of having to really get over yourself and learn to manage those voices and not believe what those inner voices are saying. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's interesting though, because I do think we have those inner voices because of what's the societal messages that get passed down to us. Yeah. So it it does relate back to the system, although absolutely there is something we can do about it ourselves as well. We don't have to believe those voices at the end of the day, do we?

SPEAKER_01: 7:28

Yes, yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:31

Very good. Okay. So where did you, you know, so you had a successful career as a lawyer, and I'm I I imagine you were enjoying that success. But then what were the turning point moments that drew you towards leaving law and becoming a coach?

SPEAKER_01: 7:46

So in my last legal role, I remember I was coming to the end of the it was a maternity cover. And as the time drew nearer for me to make a decision about where I was going next, I remember I started to think about what my future looked like. And the more I thought about it, the more I started to feel like I didn't quite see me continuing in that path. I started to feel quite suffocated, is the word that I use. Suffocated by the paperwork, suffocated by the system, suffocated by just doing the same work over and over again. And I realized that more and more of my work was rooted in looking at leases and papers and files, and less of it was about using my voice and taking up space in court and having conversations. And that's where I started to feel like I can't do this anymore. I really can't do this any longer. The challenge, though, was that was all I knew. That was all I had felt like I was destined to do was be a lawyer. And so I couldn't quite see a way out of it. And so I started to have conversations with other people, with people who knew me, people who um knew some of my other strengths. And I use that term giving myself permission with my clients now because it was something that I needed to do at that point. I needed to give myself permission to even contemplate that I could do anything else. And even though I was a big grown woman, I felt like I needed permission from my parents because that was the plan, that was the dream, that was all we knew. Permission from my husband, who had also invested in my legal career, my journey. We had a dream. And yet there was something about me giving myself permission to say, what else is possible? And as soon as I opened up that door of permission, then possibilities started to emerge. And so I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine, and I shared my CV with her. And she said, Ronge, I don't quite know where to start from because your CV is so loyally. And I said, I know because that's all I have done. So what am I to do with that? And yet, from that conversation, that opened up a door that led me to do some work as a business quality manager in a big construction company that was completely out of my comfort zone, but that helped me to realize that, oh, perhaps there are other things that I could do. And conversation after conversation really started to open that door wider and wider until I got to a place where I had a conversation with a gentleman who mentioned just in a casual manner that he had a coach. And it was then out of curiosity, I said, Tell me more, what is this? Who is this coach? Why do you have a coach? You're so successful. And he said, Well, I'm so successful because I have not just one, but two coaches. Why don't I introduce you to one of them? And it was from that introduction and me attending a beautiful um event that his coach Heard's put on that I started to realize that wow, there is so much more to what I heard experienced. And there was so much more that I could actually begin to tap into, that my guilds could play into, that I could begin to, yeah, just explore and navigate.

SPEAKER_00: 11:22

That is such a beautiful story, and it illustrates so many different things, which I want to kind of highlight here because you you you qualified in a profession that you wanted to qualify, and it wasn't that it was like you were compelled or pressurized to do it, you chose to do it. But I also hear that the longer you were in your role as a lawyer, the less you were playing to your strengths. Because it sounds like your strengths are expressing your voice, being out there with others, you know, having that people contact, making a difference to people, etc. All of those are playing to your strengths, and the more you were caught up with sort of the backroom admin side of things, the more that wasn't playing to it. But also I get the real sense of, you know, being kind of almost feeling in that place of almost stuckness for a while, of wondering, oh, what am I going to do? This isn't quite right, but I'm not sure what to do. But I but I want to acknowledge that you sought feedback from other people. So it wasn't that you just stayed stuck, you started to seek feedback to get their thinking on it as well, to get to help guide you as well. But then the the the final thing I'm going to say is how much, you know, when we think, oh, I've got uh in my career, I need to change things. It's almost like I need this clear picture of where I'm going to go to next. But what you describe beautifully is how your whole journey started to then emerge through the people you met, through getting a different type of job that opened your eyes and I get I guess um helped you develop different capabilities as well. And then just by chance bumping into someone who had two coaches and that opened up the whole possibility of having your own coach and then going into coaching, it's a really wonderful example of we sometimes just have to trust that take one step and something else will happen. You can't necessarily know what exactly the end result is you're trying to achieve right now, but just take one step and see what happens. 100%, Mary.

SPEAKER_01: 13:19

I mean, yeah, if anybody had told me what would come of that one decision to say yes to that opportunity, which was scary and completely unknown to me, the whole world of it, I would have remained stuck essentially doing what I was doing. And so it's being willing to take some risks then as well.

SPEAKER_00: 13:40

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I am assuming that your family and your husband, you know, giving yourself permission, I think, is really powerful, but that you had the support behind you.

SPEAKER_01: 13:51

Yes, I did. I mean, my parents, you know, they are old school, so to speak. And um, my father's journey ended last year, but I remember a conversation, one of the last conversations we had, and he did say, Oh, you know, I did wish that you would continue your legal path. However, he became like the greatest champion of the work that I do. And when I've got my first coaching opportunity in a law firm, he was the first person who I could think of of sharing that with. I'm like, I'm back in the law, I'm back in the law, not as a lawyer, but as a coach. And so he celebrated, as well as my husband and my mum, they have celebrated, they have celebrated my journey. And without this support and their encouragement, I don't know that I would have got as far as I have. So I'm deeply grateful for yeah, what were difficult conversations at the onset, but have developed into just incredible, incredible support.

SPEAKER_00: 14:48

Fabulous. So you trained as a coach and you are now an established coach, and you talk a lot about helping women speak with intention. What does that actually mean in practice? And why do you think it matters so much, especially in male-dominated spaces?

SPEAKER_01: 15:05

Oh my goodness, how much time do we have for this one? Yes, I'll just share some nuggets. I mean, I noticed that for so many women, we would be in rooms with accomplished men as well, very accomplished women. And what I noticed was that every time there was an opportunity for female voices to emerge, it was almost like the women melted into the wallpaper, is the best way that I often describe it. And having conversations with woman after woman, what I noticed was that many were waiting for the confidence to emerge before they put their voices in the room. And I remember very specifically being at one event where we were all expected to speak. And every time this one specific woman, once it got closer and closer to her turn, she'll get herself into such a place of panic that she wouldn't really be able to articulate herself properly because she didn't feel confident enough. And so I started to notice that actually too many women, and including myself at times, were waiting for this feeling of confidence to emerge that would enable them to actually put their voices in the rooms to take up vocal space. And I started to ask myself, what if confidence is actually not the thing that is needed? What if we actually started from a place of intention? And this came about because during the time of the George Floyd situation, there were lots of voices emerging from all sorts of different places. And I remember my son asking me, he said, What are you saying about it? Mom, what are you saying? And I remember in that time that I wasn't 100% sure what it was that I wanted my message to be. And it was from that conversation that after taking some time to pause and to think about it, I thought, what's my intention? What is the intention of what it is that I want to say in the midst of all the noise and all of the voices? And that's when that speak from a place of intention came to me because I brought together different voices and brought them together into a room. And I called it um finding your voice in the midst of the mayhem. And I remember just asking people, what's the intention of what you're saying? I know that there is something that you're trying to say, what is your intention? And I tell you, Mary, once I started to ask myself that question, what is my intention? It changed the need to be confident. Because what I noticed was that once we started from that place of intention, it opened up the door to at least put my voice into the room. And with that as a starting point, guess what emerged once I had taken that step to be intentional? The confidence that I was so desperately seeking that I noticed so many women were seeking, that confidence emerged. But intention was the starting point. And so I started to I remember going for a run once and um this acronym came to mind to wait. Yes. W-A-I-T. Why am I talking? And I thought, what if every woman, before they stepped into a room, asked themselves that question, why am I talking? And I was so excited and I thought it was my acronym. In fact, it was. It came to me while I was running, and I came and I searched for it on the internet, and I saw it was already there.

SPEAKER_00: 18:36

And I thought, I I used it in my coach training, actually, to stop me talking, actually, to encourage me to listen and stop talking and get my clients to talk rather than me. That's why I that's where I learned it. But that's the but what I'm hearing, you're using it in a different context. You're using it to give to support the women that you coach to find that intention.

SPEAKER_01: 18:59

And to start with that, to start rather than waiting to be confident, is to give yourself permission to at least even show up and then to find what the intention is. And so I use the why am I talking? And then another one that's come to me is why am I there? So why am I even in that space? And so starting from there, I found has really changed the game for so many people. Rather than waiting and waiting and waiting to be confident, it's why don't I start from being intentional and grounding myself in that?

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

I love that. And also what I love about it is that because I I am with you, I think confidence is a really loaded word, because there are so many other things that impact whether we feel confident or not. But what you've described there is if we take action, whether we feel confident or not, just taking some action, lo and behold, we start to feel that confidence that we thought we were licking missing just by taking um some action. So, really, really great illustration of that.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

Yes, and I often think of it as shifting from freeze to flow. So rather than being frozen, you move from that place of freeze to flow from hesitation to, as you just said, action. And that's what intention does.

SPEAKER_00: 20:15

Yes, and it doesn't have to be a massive action, it can be a small action, but by taking the action, that then helps you feel better in yourself and gives you that sense of confidence, which is absolutely a loaded word. And while we're on the subject of it then, because we both have an interest in common, because I I run a workshop called Exploding the Confidence Myth or Myths. You actually talk about the myth of confidence. So I'd love to unpack with you what you see as the myth of confidence.

SPEAKER_01: 20:43

Yes, so it very much ties in with what I've already been talking about, and I often like to think about it as um what I found is that when we focus solely on being confident, it actually amplifies the pressure. So it's rather than it it creates this impossible standard, is what I found, where we think that we need to feel completely certain before we speak up, before we show up, even. And what I found that changes everything in terms of this confidence myth is that when we start giving ourselves permission to show up as we are, without feeling that complete sense of I've arrived or I know exactly what I'm talking about, it just reminds us that um this whole idea of being uh of confidence is about being present. It's about being present and being imperfect in that place of presence. Rather, I feel like the confidence calls us to feel like we have to be perfect and we have to have it all figured out. And that just isn't what I found the case to be. And so it's about showing up just as we are, but giving ourselves that permission to show up anyway, and trusting, trusting that whatever that confidence piece looks like, it will emerge when it needs to. Because again, I found that we think that this is what confidence looks like. We arrive in that place and we still don't feel confident, and so we feel like we've got to chase after something else to make us feel more confident, and so it's this constant chasing after and the presence piece around showing up just as we are and trusting that we show up that when we show up like that, we are a gift to whoever we get to speak to, whoever we're showing up with. I've just found that to be incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_00: 22:31

Incredibly powerful, and I totally concur. I think we probably um are agreeing madly here because um I think I might use different language to you, but absolutely the whole thing about, you know, you you look at someone who's making a presentation or a a woman leader or whoever it is, you think, oh, they're so confident. I really challenge whether they are really confident. Quite often they will have, I well, I know from coaching senior women leaders that they'll have moments of really lacking in confidence, but they take the action anyway, and they let go of this whole thing of letting go of being perfect, um, that I will keep learning as I'm going, and sort of viewing life as a learning journey really helps them take the action rather than uh always fe having to feel that suddenly I've got my golden ball of confidence with me or whatever it is. That's kind of a bit of a pipe dream, isn't it? Because it does ebb and flow. It's just how we are as human beings. Yes, for all of us. Yeah, for all of us, 100%. Yeah, yeah. I love that. So that's some really, really good ideas coming through in terms of how you approach and support women to act confidently whether they might feel it or not, because I think that's the difference, isn't it? It's like just take the action and the confidence follows, but the initial you might not feel it initially, but just take the action.

SPEAKER_01: 23:53

Yeah, and not from a fake it until you make it place. I I'm really not into faking it, and I know that there's a lot of stuff out there that encourages women to fake it. I heard a phrase around facing it until you make it, and I really resonated with that. Yes, so I'm like, face your fears, face your intention, face giving yourself permission, start from there rather than pretending faking it to no show up with the vulnerability that I'm not quite there yet, but I am choosing to show up with presence, I'm choosing to put my voice out there, and I'm choosing to connect because connection is where the magic happens anyway. And so once that becomes the focal point rather than um, I'm going to just fake it, it changes everything. It really does. So face it, face whatever it is, get the support that you need.

SPEAKER_00: 24:50

And it's actually much more energizing to be authentic and to be real about it. You've reminded me, I'm I'm running a program at the moment, a women's leadership programme, and we have women come on, senior leaders who've done the journey and all that sort of stuff, and they share their story. And the the woman guest that we had on recently actually started her presentation by saying, I am, I have to confess, I'm feeling a little anxious starting this, and she was really vulnerable. But you know, that really engaged the audience. Everyone was absolutely with her, and she was so full of humanity in the way she spoke. She had everybody on her side as she went through, and and you know, that was totally authentic. So, you know, she she shared her vulnerability and it made such a strong connection with the audience. It was so powerful. That's it. It's that power of connection, isn't it? Fantastic. So um, I just want to ask you also, because you describe yourself as the queen of joy, which again resonates with me because I'm all about I think we should be doing things that are joyful. You know, if if something isn't joyful, question why are you doing it? Is this something you really should be doing now for yourself or for anyone? Um, so tell me more about how joy, how joy works for you, how it connects to the presence and public speaking element of your work, particularly in high pressure environments. Because I know my familiarity with high pressure environments is it can just get into do, do, do, and you can end up feeling like you're on the treadmill, which isn't joyful at all. So, how do you introduce that whole idea?

SPEAKER_01: 26:20

Yeah, so for starters, I didn't give myself the title Queen of Joy as a friend of mine, actually. Um, we did some work together and he introduced me once as the Queen of Joy, and I thought, I like that. I will you own that. Yeah, yes, because joy absolutely is one of my greatest values. And when I think back in terms of the my decision to step away from the law, it was because it had stopped giving me joy. That's when I think about it, that's what it is, and so that's become a guiding principle for decisions that I make, a guiding principle in terms of how I want to show up. I want to have an impact in relation to meeting people and leaving them with a little bit more joy than they would otherwise have had. And I love an acronym, as I've mentioned, the W A I T joy is another one that I have turned into an acronym. And I feel like that gives us as individuals uh an opportunity to really own our own authentic joy. And so I've coined it just own yourself. Lovely. I know, right? I know, and what I have found is that joy, authentic, deep, powerful joy comes from me simply deciding to own myself, to own myself with all the magic that I bring into the world, to own myself with all the mess that I bring into the world, to own myself with all that I am, and to tap into that. And so laughter is a huge part of um uh of who I am, and I'm learning to laugh through seasons that are also difficult, not laugh from a um nonchalant or uh irresponsible or frivolous, so to speak, place, but to learn to laugh at the days to come, to learn that I can laugh even in the midst of difficulties and challenges. And for me, that is all part of owning myself. So with my clients, yes, and to again give themselves permission to have real joy by owning who they are and defining what that means in all the spaces that they inhabit, including those high-pressure environments. Because the truth is joy lightens the load. Yes, joy lightens the spaces that we are in, it changes so much.

SPEAKER_00: 28:44

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's all this talk about, you know, as a leader, you have to have gravitas. But I actually am a believer that actually levitas is just as important. And I love that that saying, angels can fly because they take themselves lightly. Sometimes we can get so we can get so significant about things, and oh gosh, it's all going to end and because if we're not doing so and so, what it's like light now.

SPEAKER_01: 29:07

And what I love about what you said, Mary, is that when we don't take ourselves too seriously, then that gives space for us to own our mistakes and to be, I call it permission to be human, right? Just that acceptance that we are human, and so we won't be perfect, we won't always have the right answers, we won't always tick every box, we can take ourselves lightly, and that all helps to really um strengthen that foundation of joy for me.

SPEAKER_00: 29:37

And that is a real skill of leadership, actually. Because particularly when you're in a high pressure environment, you know, we're under so much pressure to deliver and hit targets and deadlines that we do start to get very serious and focused on that and forget actually the way to get there is to bring a bit of joy into it because that you'll get that'll probably get you there faster, actually. Fabulous, fabulous. Really, I'm loving this conversation. I hope our listeners are too. This is actually I'm experiencing this as a very joyful conversation. So you're definitely bringing your living your value of joy here today. So thank you for that. So the other thing you talk about then, and it's something else I also firmly believe in, which is that the work that we do, I mean, I firmly believe that leadership starts with the work that we do on the inside. And you talk about communication from the inside out. So can you share an example of what that looks like when someone transforms their inner story and it changes how they actually speak?

SPEAKER_01: 30:38

So I remember when I first started coaching women around taking up um, yeah, taking up vocal space and really just amplifying their voices, it was all around um, and this is how you stand, and this is what you say, and this is it was very much the external. And the more that I leaned into the work for myself, and the more women who I had coaching conversations with, I realized that that is actually only the tip of the iceberg. That's only the surface. Because the magic happens underneath all of that. It happens before you enter the rooms, it happens before you open your mouth. That whole premise, the idea that actually what goes on internally, the self-awareness piece, the understanding where you self-sabotage, the alignment with that whole idea of intention, what you want to say before you even step into a space. I realized that that is so transformational. And so I trained as a positive intelligence coach. And for me, I love that because it gave me language around what you know, just what really gets in the way of women taking up space. Where do we self-sabotage? And so it was beginning to identify language around the understanding the voice of the judge, the voice of the controller, the voice of the pleaser, the voice of the victim, and understanding that when you are able to uh um shine a light on them, I say you've got to name them to tame them, right? So once you have that understanding, then you realize that actually they don't have to be the ones driving the um car of your life, right? So noticing that they are there, giving yourself permission to notice and to let them go, and dialing into that other part of your brain, which positive intelligence calls your sage, your inner wisdom, your spirit, whatever that is, and trusting that actually once you've identified that work, once you've done the work surrounding that, then you can show up very differently. And that informs the tone that you use when you speak. It informs how you take up space, not just with your voice, but with your body, because all of those are real facets of communication. So it ceases to be, oh, I'm just going to figure out how to stand and um know the exact words to use. No, it's so much deeper than that. It's actually really dealing with what holds you back, tapping into what gives you joy, what fuels you, and showing up with that energy.

SPEAKER_00: 33:21

I love that. And to me, that sounds very much about get out of your head, which the head space is all about how do I need to stand, what how have I structured my presentation, where are my notes, all this sort of thing. To getting into your heart, indeed, and trusting your intuition and connecting with your true self.

SPEAKER_01: 33:40

Yeah, permission to be human is what I absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 33:43

And and you keep using the word permission, and you also, you know, part of what your whole thing is that you talk about the power of permission. You shared in your story how you gave yourself permission. What does that mean to you in the work that you do? Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 33:57

Um, permission is all about giving myself an opportunity to say yes, to say yes to those opportunities that perhaps I felt somewhat unqualified for, perhaps unworthy of. And it allows me to say yes and then to figure it out. And a classic example for me is two years ago, I my husband and I had had a conversation about in our lifetime running the London Marathon together. And I remember I used to look at those people who ran the marathon as though they had 10 legs. I'm like, there is, I mean, they are like superhuman. There is no way on the planet that I could ever do that. But honestly, Mary, two years ago, I thought, what if I gave myself permission to even say yes to the opportunity? And that enabled me to start to train. And 5K became 10, 10 became 15, and the rest, as they say, is history because I did run it. And for me, that was one of the most powerful examples of giving myself permission to say yes to something that I felt completely unqualified, unworthy, unable to say yes to. And that translates into the work that I do now with women who think that their voices are not worthy, they don't have a story. Oh, surely that person's is better. Or it's like, what if you said yes to even the opportunity that there is something that you can bring into the rooms that you sit in? You give yourself a chance to say that my voice is worthy. That question that I've got to ask will make a difference. That comment before somebody else says it and they're applauded and acknowledged for it, even though you were thinking it, but stayed quiet, stayed mute. What if you said yes to yourself and backed yourself? Essentially, that's what it means to give, that's what it looked like for me to give myself permission. And what other people have said, I enable them to do is to give themselves permission to simply say yes and then see at the results that they get.

SPEAKER_00: 36:01

I also hear that you give yourself permission, but alongside that, there's an element of trust because you've you gave yourself permission for the marathon, and you kind of trusted that it would you'd still be, you know, you'd be able to do it. Things would fall into place. And there is something of it's about the acting with intention. There's trust associated with that, that you act with the intention, you give yourself the permission. Trust what then will happen next beyond that. So there's a lot of trust, and and I I guess teaching people to trust themselves in the work that you do.

SPEAKER_01: 36:35

Indeed. Yes, I I say back yourself, right? Make a decision and back yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 36:40

It sounds like a real opening up process. So it's a real opening up of possibility and making a difference. So you are also a TEDx license holder and coach. So, what have you learned from coaching TEDx speakers that could help us all become more intentional and impactful as communicators?

SPEAKER_01: 37:01

So, again, um I am also a TEDx speaker. So I gave my own TEDx talk two years ago, which I entitled The Kindness Manifesto. And that actually it centers on a story around my running of the marathon. So yeah. Oh, and can we find that on TED Talks? Absolutely. Yes, yeah. So if you search for my name and the kindness manifesto, it will come up. Lovely, I love that. So a huge thing that I've noticed, especially from this last event, we had an event just a few weeks ago, and I remember reaching out to individuals to say, have you even considered giving your own TEDx talk? Because we focus on local speakers. Myself and my co-lead Richard, we're quite intentional about supporting people in our local community to bring their voices to the TEDx stage. And I will always remember reaching out to this incredible woman. She is accomplished as they come. And I sent her a message and I said, Have you ever considered giving a TEDx talk? And she replied and essentially said, Ha ha ha, of course not. I am not that brave. And I said, Well, why don't you go off and try and find some bravery and come back and let's have a conversation because we will support you through the process. And that was it. She essentially just said, I can't, I can't even envisage getting to that place where I feel ready, where I feel worthy, where I feel confident enough to say yes to that. Contrast that to another lady who felt very similar, felt quite unworthy of even applying, but applied anyway, and got herself to the auditions and did her best and presented, didn't make the cut, but oh my goodness, has she celebrated the fact that she said yes to the opportunity? Because it's another part of her story, it's another layer to her her bigger, to the bigger picture in terms of at least she said yes. And then there's another woman who, up until the last minute, thought, I don't know that I can do it, I'm not sure, and applied anyway. And from the very first audition, we were blown away. And she stood on that red dot not very long ago. And so for me, it's noticing these three very individual and specific examples of women, some who would say, surely not, and never even try. Some who would say, I'm going to give this a shot and we'll try. And that's not your time, that's not your moment. That's okay. You've given yourself an opportunity for next time. And that who would say, Yes, I'm scared, but I'm going to do this anyway. And that's where I just see the magic happen. This whole idea, and I do talk about it a lot, this whole idea of giving yourself permission, and even through the process, because it is a rigorous process, you are standing on that dot, and in a very short amount of time, you are giving a speech about an area of expertise or a story that really resonates that you want to go on to have an impact. And I think sometimes we don't quite realize how much time, how much effort it takes. And yet we, I mean, everything that is worthwhile, it does take, it can take time, it can take effort. And so it's choosing to say yes to the process anyway, and choosing to do it joyfully, it's choosing to get the feedback that can feel a little bit challenging, and yet running with it and going back and refining it and trusting that the message that you have to share with the world will impact one person who will go on to impact somebody else and somebody else. And so for me, it's the power of the ripple effect, knowing that you sharing your story by the power of your voice will make an incredible difference for others.

SPEAKER_00: 41:01

Absolutely. You never know who you might touch. Yeah. So, one of the things though about presenting, and you know, as as your uh, I think your first person was rather nervous about uh being a TEDx speaker, no, you know, presentations are often considered one of the most stressful life events uh that there are. You know, I think they come up quite high along with death and and divorce and house moving. So, um, how do you help your coaches manage their nerves when it comes to making a presentation?

SPEAKER_01: 41:35

So it goes back to something we've already talked about. It goes back to starting with your intention. So reminding them what is the purpose of you taking up space, whether it's from a TEDx start, whether it's from a different platform, whether it's even in a meeting or a one-to-one conversation. What is your intention? What do you want people to walk away thinking of, feeling? What is it that you want to feel by the end of this conversation? And using that as a powerful grounding tool. I also am a huge believer in connecting with the power of your breath. I say that it is a God-given gift. You don't have to stand in a queue for it, you don't have to seek anybody's permission to get it. It's a gift. And so learning how to ground yourself, settle your nerves, acknowledge that they're there, but spend time really just inhaling um joy, inhaling passion, inhaling power, and exhaling fear, exhaling doubt, exhaling anxiety, and learning how to do that day after day after day, um, I found to be really powerful. I'm also a huge believer in journaling. So I journal about um what I'm feeling as a way to release it. I journal about the impact that I want to have. I journal about um the vision that I have. And that leads me powerfully to the third thing, which is visualization. So before I stand on a stage, I have seen myself. I have seen myself on that red dot. I have seen myself in that room, I have envisaged how I take up space. I have envisaged not necessarily the exact words, but the tone, the flavor of the words that I'm bringing to the conversations. I envisage be really taking up that space. And so being able to embody that time and time and time again until it begins to feel somewhat visceral. That's just, I've noticed, makes a really powerful difference. So the nerves, do I show up with nerves? My daughter asked me once. She said, Mom, you go into all these places, you don't know the people, and you go and you speak. Aren't you nervous? And I said, Yes, I still feel what I think.

SPEAKER_00: 43:47

Well, actually, think nerves do bring something, they bring an energy to your presenting.

SPEAKER_01: 43:51

So we don't want to get rid of them. No, exactly. It's the reframing, yes, and reframing them, reframing them as excitement, reframing them as the gift of an opportunity. I get to share my voice with an audience. What a gift! And stepping into that with that energy is really powerful.

SPEAKER_00: 44:09

Wonderful. Okay, so if a woman listening right now to this episode is holding back, maybe she's got a voice that's making her doubt herself or she's shrinking back from leadership. What would you say to her?

SPEAKER_01: 44:23

You won't be surprised, Mary, to hear what my advice would be. I would say, Sister, why don't you start by giving yourself permission to put your voice out there? Start small, put your voice into smaller spaces, maybe in one-to-one conversations that may have felt a little bit scary, start with that. And then in bigger rooms in those meetings, whether it's starting with asking a question. So this isn't, you know, um, putting your voice into giving huge presentations right from the onset, ask a question, build upon something that somebody else has said, but encourage yourself that before you leave the next meeting, you will say something. Say something, say something, right? Just say something. And whether it sounds perfect, whether it sounds um like it wasn't quite what you wanted, do that today and tomorrow and the day after. And you will see that begin to give you that confidence that you're seeking. But there is nothing, there is no trick, there is no magic wand except starting. And I love a quote. It's a quote by Zig Ziglar that says, Um, you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. So start.

SPEAKER_00: 45:48

That is a great quote. I love it. Thank you. And finally, what's your own leadership edge at the at the moment? Where are you being called to speak up more boldly?

SPEAKER_01: 45:58

So, right now I am on a mission. I really feel like it's a mission to support as many women as possible to speak up more. And so I feel called to lead by providing more spaces. TEDx is one platform, there will be many other places, and so I'm excited about kicking off a series which I am calling a story, a voice, which will invite women to come and spend a day with me, getting some coaching, and then presenting from a stage and giving themselves that opportunity to get that recorded, to get themselves photographed, and essentially to share their message, share that story with the world through the power of your incredible voice. So I feel called to lead in this way, and it's a vision that I had from 2020. COVID, I feel like, snatched that, and it snatched the, I suppose, the dream in some ways. And so stepping back into that space has felt a little bit like, oh, can I do this again? But I feel called to do it. And so this is where my leadership journey is leading.

SPEAKER_00: 47:04

Fantastic. And I really get your own excitement and the joy in doing that that's coming through here. So thank you so much for joining us today. It's been it has been an absolute joy having this conversation. How can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_01: 47:19

So I often say LinkedIn is where I show up, it's my playground. So please connect with me on LinkedIn, um, Ronke Cooker away, as um, you will see from the notes. I am also in the process of building my YouTube channel, so that's something that you can keep an eye on. And I would love to invite you to sign up for my newsletter where I share really valuable insights on how you can show up and speak up with greater intention. So I would be delighted to have you connect with me via LinkedIn and I can send you some details as to how to get that information.

SPEAKER_00: 47:58

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mary. It has genuinely been a joy. Before we wrap up, I want to share something with you. Do you ever feel like your confidence isn't really the issue, but wish you could strengthen your ability to deal with things that keep chipping away at it? The bias, the double standards, the pressure to prove yourself, to name just a few. That's exactly why I created Exploding the Confidence Myth, a three-month programme for women leaders who are ready to change that story. It combines one-to-one coaching, group coaching, and a powerful in-person workshop. The next programme starts at the beginning of November with a workshop taking place on the 7th of November at the Connort Rudens in Holburn, London. Past participants have described it as validating, supportive, and stretching. They've become more visible, raised their value, increased their financial return, and broken through patterns that have held them back. But perhaps most importantly, they've gained a deeper sense of okayness with who they are, recognising they already have something valuable to offer. If this resonates with you or you know someone who would benefit, you'll find all the details in the show notes. I'd love you to join us. Thank you so much for listening to the G Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.