Episode 23 - Reimagining Masculinity at Work with Daniele Fiandaca

What if the very system we’ve been trained to succeed in is holding all of us back? Inclusive leadership and male-allyship specialist Daniele Fiandaca joins me to explore healthier masculinity, practical ways to include men in DEI, and why empathy is a leadership muscle—not a “female” trait.

In this conversation, Daniele (founder of Token Man and co-founder of Hard as Nails) explains why he avoids the word “patriarchy” when engaging men, how “the man box” harms everyone, and what shifts actually move cultures beyond policy into day-to-day inclusion. We also discuss his upcoming Masculinity in the Workplace event at Conway Hall, London, 19 November (theme: Supporting Boys to Men to Role Models).

We cover:

• Meeting men where they are (and why language matters)
• The “man box” and its costs—at work and at home
• Hard as Nails: nail polish as a catalyst for empathy and reflection
• Coaching senior men: feelings, vulnerability and accountability
• A simple first step leaders can take this week
• Why 97% of men who lean in report becoming better leaders/humans

Listen if you’re: a leader, DEI sponsor, or ally who wants practical, human ways to bring men into the inclusion journey.

Connect with Daniele on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielefiandaca/

Book Masculinity in the Workplace Conference 19th November 13.00-18.00 - https://www.conwayhall.org.uk/whats-on/event/masculinity-in-the-workplace/

🔗 Connect with Mary: marygregory.com

📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregory

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mary_gregory/

📰 Newsletter: Subscribe on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7029410958645059584

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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello and welcome to SheLead's Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to this week's episode. So, what in the system that shaped our workplaces, the one we've all been conditioned to succeed in, is the very system that's holding us all back. My guest today, Danieli Fingarka, recognises that patriarchy isn't just broken for women, it's broken for men too. Daniele is the founder of Token Man, a movement helping men understand the challenges faced by women and underrepresented groups, and co-founder of Hard as Nails, a creative project where men experiment with wearing nail varnish as a symbol of empathy and reimagined masculinity. Through his work as an inclusive leadership and male allyship specialist, Daniele has helped organizations move beyond policy into real cultural change, creating workplaces where men are part of the inclusion conversation, not standing on the sidelines. And in a week today, on the 19th of November, in the Conway Hall in London, Danieli is bringing together a powerful lineup of speakers, including rapper and mental health advocate Professor Green, comedian and writer Marcus Brigstock, for the annual Masculinity in the Workplace event with a theme this year of supporting boys to men to role models, which will explore how we can raise, engage, and inspire men to become positive forces for change. The link will be in the show notes if you'd like to go along. So I hope that during our conversation we will explore and shed some light on the question if patriarchy limits all of us, what would it take to free both men and women from its grip and build something better in its place? Hello, Danieli. It is an absolute delight to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

Hello, Mary. I'm honoured to have been asked.

SPEAKER_01: 2:26

Well, I'm honoured that you've given up the time. I mean I never take it for granted when uh you're all such busy people, and I feel very grateful that you've given the time up. So let's kick off by talking about this broken system. I mean, you said that patriarchy is broken for everyone. Could you share more about what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00: 2:45

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you said system and you said patriarchy. I mean, the first thing I'd say is I think we need to stop calling it the patriarchy because I think that's creating a huge issue with the men who are seeing that as a as a and listen, I'll talk about the uh we I we know what the patriarchy is, right? For us it's easy, but I've I've just seen the impact as when you say the patriarchy to a lot of men, they'll just automatically clam up because you know the the patriarchy is about a system that was created by men for men. Let's be let's be honest, that's what that patriarchy is, and this the world isn't like that anymore, so it's a system that was built for another time, and so I talk a lot about the system, and I and I think for me that's just because I know that I I don't want to use any language that actually creates any kind of barrier. So, you know, in the say I wouldn't go in if I'm if I'm I've got a room full of men, I'm not going to introduce myself as a feminist up front because I also know what that did to me when someone introduced themselves to me as a feminist 15 years ago. For me, I've got to meet men where they are on their journey. And I know people go, but we have to talk about it, we need to name the system to know what it is. And I'm like, no, we don't really. We just need to say the system is broken, and it doesn't really matter whether you put a name on it or not. So, and I think for me, if we look at the system as broken, I don't know whether you've heard of the man box, but the man box is is seven different pillars that actually uh put men in this box. So, you know, the reason we did hard as nails, am I on a mission to get every man to wear nail polish? No, 100% not. But am I on a mission to get every man to have a meaningful conversation on what masculinity is, what it could be, but also to recognise that the current system is doing them harm. So, you know, and I'm gonna give you some examples of of the man box. So uh this idea that men, one of parts of the man box is men should look good, but but but god forbid if they did anything to try and make themselves look good, you know, like put nail polish on or wear jewellery so people can't see me, but I've got I have got my nails painted, and I have, you know, someone said to me the other day, it was funny. My my cousin was over and he said, You have more rings than Tina, and you're like, Yes, and and it was like Tina's my wife, you know, it's like it's like comparing oh my god, I've never seen a man have more rings than his wife.

SPEAKER_01: 5:01

And I'm like, What well, yes, you know a very beautiful selection, I might add as well. Thank you, thank you. I I want to come back because actually I think what you've observed there is really powerful. Actually, let's stop labelling it. It is just the system that's broken. Let's look at how we can make a better system rather than labelling it because language does create a world, and I totally get the importance of having inclusive and using inclusive language rather than language that might alienate people. So I think that's a fantastic observation. So, how did your own journey come to the realization that actually this system is broken?

SPEAKER_00: 5:39

Oh, I know I know you said you needed four, you said we only got 45 minutes. I'm gonna try and keep this short, but it's but it's quite hard to keep it short. So I started token so token man came comes off the you know why the why the name token man? Everyone, most women I meet love the token man because they get it. They get, you know, it was an ironic play on the fact that actually most of the time it's token women. So and it comes from it actually comes from a real life event. So I had a dinner that 13 years ago changed my life, and so I organized, I used to work in advertising, I used to run uh one of the biggest collectives of creative directors around the world, and we wanted to recruit more women. So I did a dinner with 12 women, and I turned up to this dinner, and I wouldn't think anything of it. Creative social was a hobby for me. I was a managing partner of an agency, and I just walked into the room like you know, it was a lovely dinner. You know, most people say, Are you having dinner with 12 women? Lucky you. But something happened to me the minute I walked into the room that never happened to me before, which is I lost my confidence. And anyone that knows me well says that's not possible, but it was like this invisible hand game down and pulled my confidence away. Then we sat down for dinner. The conversations around me I didn't resonate with, it was nothing stereotypical, it just wasn't, it just wasn't my day-to-day. It just so I found myself being pushed further out, and then when I got up to introduce the dinner that I cut, you know, I I organized my co-host cut me off. And so these are all things that I'd heard women telling me they'd experience either in the boardroom or in senior leadership. And it wasn't that I never believed them. Firstly, I just didn't understand what it really felt like to be in the out group. So I had many privileges, and one of my privileges I didn't experience being in the out group at work until I was 39. Okay, and that's an enormous privilege. But secondly, I whatever whatever they did experience, I there's no way I contributed. I'm a good guy, you know. You know, I I love everyone, you know, you know. So for me, you know, and I thought it was a supportive leader, I thought it was an inclusive leader, but then I started to realise how my behaviour was pushing people out. So on a Tuesday morning, for example, I'd see Pete and we'd talk about football. In that particular case, there were 10 there were 12 people in the senior leadership team, 10 were men, two were women, and those two women in that case, particular case, didn't have an interest in football. Okay, and football the world's change, right? I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm an Arsenal men's and women's season ticket holder, right? So the demographic is changing. And if those two women did like football, then actually that comment would have been fine, but they didn't. So I started to realise how I was contributing, but most importantly, I started to realize that actually when you're in a system, if you are oblivious to that system or not doing anything to change that system, you are fundamentally complicit with that system. And so that's when we started token man because no minority in history has ever affected change without the support majority. And go back 13 years ago, you know, what was very clear to me is that not only were men not being invited in the room to talk about gender equality, they often weren't welcome in the room. I'm a hacker, I like solving problems, and I just thought, how can how can we create a solution if men aren't in the room? So token man was really a reflection of the fact that men find it very uncomfortable being in those spaces, they're often made to feel uncomfortable in those spaces. So it was about creating a brave space for those men to come in and have conversations. And we started at gender equality, but then I moved into inclusion diversity, and I you know everything I do now is intersectional. So I, you know, even though I talk about gender equality because it's one area, but I'll talk about anti-racism, I'll talk about uh you know the support that the LGBTQ community did this. I think it's really important that we are intersectional in our thinking. But what happened for the first four years, I just can't I copied what everyone else was doing because I was completely new. I was, you know, I was learning, unlearning, and relearning every day. I copied and and what the women's networks were doing is they were saying to men, come and be allies. So I was saying exactly the same thing. And then I picked up this book. Uh I'm I'm showing it to you. Obviously, people listening can't see it, but it says to my future husband, 28th of December 2012. It's the book my wife gave me a month before we got married. So she got asked lots of lots of lovely questions, and then she answered them. And you can imagine, with a month to go, she's never gonna, she's never gonna think more highly of me. So, but it kind of sat on the it sat on the side for four years, and then I picked it up. And I think our brain's a wonderful thing, it knows that there's things that you need to solve a problem, and and I wasn't engaging men, you you know that that going to men and saying come and be better allies wasn't working. We weren't getting them in there, and so I started picking up this book and I started reading it. As I said, most of it's you know saying lovely things about me, but then I came to this page and it says, The time I felt close to you was 2011 was our Anna Cerebulus. You've always shown strength, and I've always admired that about you. But this was the year I saw something I'd never seen you before, and that was your vulnerable side. It doesn't come out very often, and all I wanted to do was look after you. So 2011 was the year my brother died. Reading that was like a gut punch because I just read it and I went, why I'd been with my wife for 10 years. Why did it take my brother dying in order for her to see my vulnerable side? And that was the first time I'd really started to consider how the system harms men. And so uh that was when we kind of flipped a lot of the work we're doing with token man. So to actually if we're gonna if we're gonna recruit men to become allies and better agents of change, we have to first support them and understand what their own issues are, and everything, everything I've seen is in making men, if we think about a more healthy form of masculinity, making men lean in, without doubt, people become your best better human beings, and through being a better human being, they're going to be more inclusive. So, actually, what I found was in showing men the how the system harms them, and then getting them to start to look at how they can change, I can they could change themselves in terms of how they operate, how they show up, but also how they can change the system. I know automatically that will also benefit women and other historically marginalized groups. So I think for me that's where a lot of my work is going, is doing uh I do I basically spend my time at work supporting men, inspiring men to be better versions of themselves, and then and then recruiting them when they're ready, when they're ready to become allies and agents of change. And not everyone's ready, you know. Some people were having some huge mental health issues, you know. You can't ask someone that's having a mental health issue and struggling and doesn't know how he's gonna pay for his family and just is anxious. Asking that person to be an ally, you've just pushed them further away. So I think for me, what we have to do, and I think where the industry's got it wrong, and I still think it gets it, still gets it wrong, is we're not necessarily listening to everyone. And the people we're not listening to, I am, but I know a lot of the industry's not listening to is white, straight, neurotypical, cisgender men without disabilities. And when they're the when they are in the majority in many organizations and senior leadership, it is madness that we're not listening to those people and bringing them along the journey with us. So I think for me that's that's the key. It's how do we meet men where they're at, get to get them to understand the challenges they have and and get them to see how the system also stops them moving forward.

SPEAKER_01: 12:55

Yes, it's a really sensitive approach in meeting them where they are because you you obviously don't want them to become defensive and feel uh you know isolated by it. So can you give me an example of of where you've engaged with a with a man who has become a catalyst for change moving forward, who's become an ally. One who was one who was ready, or maybe wasn't ready at the beginning, but you worked with them and they they did become one.

SPEAKER_00: 13:20

I run something called the Takerman Brain Trust. I've worked with like for about over three years now. It's kind of it was voluntary for me, and there's about 12 men who've been going, I've been working for three years. So it's difficult for me to single out one, although there is one in particular I think is has has been amazing, and that's Neil from Merlin Entertainment. Neil has been yeah, I I I say it quite often, he's my poster child because he really has embraced this. Uh, he runs Thought Park and he he just is inclusive in everything he does, you know, and that includes knowing he needs to be a role model as a dad, and and to know that so he he is one of those people that will leave loudly, but he also makes sure he opens up the space. He's created a men's and fathers group at Thought Park. He is just finding ways to engage with everyone, specifically the men, to help them go on their journey. So, and you know, that business is thriving, it's doing really, really well. And I'd love to say there's loads and loads of leaders. I mean, I said the Takerman brain trust I work, but um the reality is I don't think I mean Takerman Consulting's only been going for two years. I mean, I I worked at Utopia before for five years, but the reason the one of the reasons I left was because I wanted to work deeper with men, and I'm also a coach, and actually I I would have said the most impactful I work work I do is working with senior leaders as coaches, and as you know, I can't necessarily tell those stories. So, but I I think for me, what's yeah, I probably I'll probably point you at the mouth. So we've done two done two big pieces of research. So we'll I'll send you the links, but if you just go to tokamand.org and under research, you can actually download the reports. We've done two bits of I did one with Robert Baker, which was uh men leaning in. It was a men leaning in report. We specifically asked for men who are leaning in to fill it out. The second one, which we did earlier this year, was all around male allyship. So different, different level, you know, men leaning in, you know, there are different levels of uh engagement, but I think as a minimum, if you're a leader and you're not leaning in, I just don't think you're a very good leader. You know, I think that's that's a fundamental. But what what was so interesting about that is that 90 we asked the question as a result of either leaning in or becoming a male ally, are you a better leader andor human being? In both cases, they both said 97% said yes. And I'm like, why wouldn't you want to be that? And and we can see I worked with a big corporate, I won't say it is, but it's amazing. We worked, I ran their female leadership program. You know, you can imagine again putting a white, you know, who puts a man to lead a leadership program? And uh my particular client, she was, you know, she was forward thinking because she said, Well, our pitch was really quite simple. Our pitch was, you know, the people we need to really educate on this sponsorship program are the men, because what happens with a lot of female sponsorship programs is the men aren't trained. So what they do, and you know, that even going into this program, I know that a lot of women were apprehensive because they'd heard of other sponsorship programs, and all the men did was give advice based on who they are. This is what this is what I did. This is yes, but you're a white straight man, you're you don't have the same barriers I have, so your advice isn't necessarily appropriate. So we our argument was really quite simple is we had to train those sponsors uh to really understand what it was like to be a woman in the workplace, and hence why we did it. Well, I think what was just so beautiful, just to just to give you one anecdote, I I have a hundred of these, but is you know, within two weeks, I think we did the first session with the I did the first session with the senior leaders. Within two weeks, the women were already seeing differences in their workplace. It can be quick. It can, you know, if you get if you get if you can get people on the journey and actually get them to see the see what they didn't see before, you can actually see movement quite quick.

SPEAKER_01: 17:11

So so important that that's um that that is approaching the system actually, in the way you're dealing with it. So that is a great example. Thank you for that. Let's move on then to consider about reimagining masculinity, because that's also a lot of the work you do, particularly linked to hard as nails. Why nail varnish? What made you choose that? Um, and what's the deeper mess? What's the deeper message behind it?

SPEAKER_00: 17:34

Well, I have a my co-founder Sam Conneth. He to give you a little background, he basically went to Harry's uh Harry Styles concert and he said to his daughter, it's your weekend. What do you want us to do? She said, Dad, I'll love us if we can get our nails painted. So I'm not a I'm not a Harry Style stylist, I don't know what they're called, but I'm not a I'm not a fan. I would never have gone to a gig, but apparently wearing nail polish is a thing if you go to Harry Styles. Does Harry Styles wear it? He does, he does. Yeah. So um he's actually he's actually got, and I've got it in front of me here. He's got he's uh he's got his own nail polish brand uh called Pleasing. But he and he got to Sunday, so he got he got them down, he went to a salon, you know, got that experience that with his daughter, got Sunday night, said uh said to his daughter, can you please take this off now? I've got a week worth of meetings. She just laughed at him. Said, Why are you laughing? He says, Because Dad, they're shellac, you at you, you know, they're gels, yeah, yeah, you have to go to a nail salon to get them off. He said, I haven't got any time. He said, Well, you're gonna have to wear them then. So he wore he wore nail polish for a week. Uh not not through choice, probably a little apprehensive, but what what he found was it opened up conversations that you never expected to have. And so he wrote a piece that said something like, uh, interesting concept or performative nonsense was the opening. And he positioned it as an allyship and as an allyship campaign. And I it took me three I I read it, I read it through someone I coached, funnily enough. I knew Sam from my previous life. Uh, but it took us three months to get a call in. And I got a call in, I said, Sam, I definitely think you've got something here. I just don't think it's allyship, but I need to go off and I need to do it myself. Uh, you know, I need to experience it. So I did it. I I'd all I was already on a mission to break stereotypes. So for me, it's a brilliant visual stereotype, right? So I've now worn skirts twice, not because I particularly wanted to wear skirts, but um, why can't men wear skirts? So I want to be able to break break those stereotypes and and do so, and doing so in a visual manner opens up conversations. But I had a very different experience to him. Actually, I did it between Christmas and New Year. I didn't actually get that many comments, but I actually one, I actually found it, I quite enjoyed it. I quite, I quite, you know, I quite liked it. But I got to go with my wife and we did it together, and that was nice, you know. And and also I got to learn, you know, the difference in gels and polish, and you know, uh I got to learn that if you got polished, you have to sit for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and do nothing. Uh and that's something I'm just not used to doing. So again, that whole idea of care and nurturing, men don't tend to care for themselves or nurture for themselves. And so I called Sam afterwards and I said, Sam, I think we've got something here, but this isn't this isn't an allyship campaign. I think if we got people to paint their nose just to be allies, that is performative, you know. But I think we've got something much more deeper here, and I think it's about it's a it's a campaign by men, for men, and it's fundamentally designed to create meaningful conversations uh around healthy masculinity, harmful stereotypes, and male mental health. And what's interesting, so we've done a we've done a big study now, we've done we've done a number of pilots. We we did a big study of 200, we recruited 250 people, but it was actually 400, but 150 didn't do it. So that was quite interesting information to find out why they didn't do it. But those 250 people, it was amazing. We had a WhatsApp group, but which was actually was we just created at the last minute, but it was genius because we had 120 men, and they're still on the group, they're still the group still exists. In two weeks, there were over a thousand messages. And what and what became really interesting was initially when people first did it, they were a bit disappointed because for the first couple of days that people so they expected now, I'm pointing my finger out, you know, you can't people can't see me listening. I'm pointing they expected this to be a campaign in which they could speak to others about how they felt, about how the system hurt them, how but actually what happened was as no as no one commented and then they went out and felt uncomfortable, the the the finger comes comes back and they had to point it themselves. And so actually, what they did is they did a lot of introspection, and so we've got the results now of over 250 people. We had a significant impact on those people, even to the extent the researchers said this is this is unparalleled. We have never seen anything to have this much impact on how on people's beliefs.

SPEAKER_01: 22:02

So, what was some what was some of the impact?

SPEAKER_00: 22:04

Well, first first so the first impact was the understanding of the system. So that kind of nervousness, that uncomfortableness. I I painted one of my friends' nails. I watched him as he went outside and put his hands in his pockets on purpose to wipe it off. You know, what why is it what why is it that some people's masculinity is so thin that actually that they're they're affronted? They're not just not they're just couldn't, it's not because they couldn't do it themselves, they're affronted for someone else to do it. You know, so there are people which we know because we've we've we've we've had some of the hate online who who who get angry, you know, men and women actually, you know, let women be women, you know, men are men, we need men to be men. And you're like, what does that what you so you think four layers are nail polished changes who I am. Uh and the reality is, you know, I'm very clear. Uh anyone that's confident enough to just get their nails polished, they're more of a man than anyone else, right? You know, that's what a proper man is, you know, to have the bravery to do something, especially, and yes, you know, you do have the good cause at the end of it, you know, having those conversations. We we do we do have a conversational toolkit to give people so they can they they're actually have have some of the tools to have the conversations. But you know what's interesting for me, I'd say probably I say I keep on saying 50%, it's probably not 50%, but I would say 20 at least 25% of the men that paint their nails the first time continue to do so. So I wear my nails 70% of the time, and I now feel if I'm not wearing nail polish, I feel a bit naked. But I I've got I've got polish rather than gels because gels kill my nails, so they often they're they're they're I you luckily you can't see them because they're a bit of a mess.

SPEAKER_01: 23:43

But yeah, but yeah, polish is much better for your nails than she is.

SPEAKER_00: 23:47

But it just chips so much quicker.

SPEAKER_01: 23:49

So such a creative experiment that you know at a deeper level makes such a difference that at least 20% of who the men that have been involved in it now have a different relationship to how they might present themselves, and a different relationship to what masculinity is all about.

SPEAKER_00: 24:08

Well, the significant impact was about that. So we had two areas that we had a significant impact on people's belief. One is on a healthy form of masculinity, so we moved them further into a healthy form of masculinity and understand the second thing, actually, funny enough, which I you know, I always say it's not an allyship campaign, but what I say doesn't mean I don't believe something else. I mean, I 100% knew there wasn't gonna be an element of allyship to it. Uh so we we we basically increase people's empathy significantly. So because especially for white straight men who've never who have never felt othered, you know, all of a sudden they walk into the room and they understand what it feels like to be othered, you know, for people to stare at you, to be able to be conscious, and you're like going, well, god, yeah, that's that's how a woman feels when she walks in a group of men, that's how a black person feels and walks into a room full of white people, you know, that's how people live their lives every day. You now know how uncomfortable it feels, and so there's that element, so it does it does build empathy, but the fact it does two things, which is actually gets men to think about a more healthy form of masculinity plus building empathy, you know. I have no doubt it's the most powerful thing I could ever do in my career.

SPEAKER_01: 25:18

So uh my next question, you might have answered it already, actually, was how does doing this redefining masculinity connect to inclusion at work? And what from what you're saying, helping people develop empathy has a massive impact on inclusion at work, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 25:32

100%. And you said how we're redefining it. I'm so happy so uh again, we'll send you the the notes that people can have it, but hard as nails at the moment is in kind of slightly hiatus. We're we're trying to work out what comes next, but there is something still going on, which is I it's so interesting. I did a I did a fireside talk uh at a business recently with a friend of mine was hosting it, and he and his first question was, How did you go from becoming an advertising CEO to becoming an L technician? I went, What an interesting question. Because if you said to me two years if you said to me two and a half years ago, you're gonna be a trained nail technician, I would have said you were mad, you know. But the reality is I I I fell in love with it so much that I actually wanted to, I saw it as a great opportunity to actually sit down with men and speak to men. And I and I knew that painting nails was going to be a good way of doing that. So I just wanted to make sure I could be the best I could be at painting those nails. So I am now a trained nail technician. I can actually open a nail salon tomorrow if I wanted to.

SPEAKER_01: 26:33

I'm I'm I'm accredited a little sideline.

SPEAKER_00: 26:37

Listen, when when when when men are all painting their nails, trust me, I'll be the first one to open that that that salon. But I think for me, one of the things that's been interesting. So I've done doing the hundreds, so I've committed to paying a hundred painting a hundred men's nails uh before the end of the year, which is which is seems how far have you gone? Well, I'm I think I'm about 72. Uh, and it does sound like 28's not a lot, but we're running out of year. So it's now getting it's now I think I started an average of 2.8 per week, then it got down to 2.5. I think we're back over three. Uh once again now, or we're about 2.9 or something, once it goes over three, it's gonna be hard. But I've committed them for the year. But what I'm also asking those men, and we have conversations about everything, we don't just talk about masculinity, but at the end of once they've nails the painted and I've taken a photo, what they have to give me is the three words they would like masculinity to be most associated with in the future. And I am so delighted because I I did my own exercise about a year ago on LinkedIn, and I wrote my words that I thought masculinity should be, and I only got pushed back on one word, and that was empathy. And people, you know, one person in particular said you could it can't be empathy because that's a feminine word, that's historically feminine word. I went, Why can't we both have the same word? Isn't that powerful? It's a bit like saying men can't have the word kind, you know. It's like so, but what's been so interesting in this the word that's come up the most that people want masculinity to be most associated with is empathy.

SPEAKER_01: 28:06

That is actually, I think that's fantastic, and I would never have thought of empathy as a purely feminine word. To me, it's just a word, but it's a really important word and a really important attribute and way of being with others.

SPEAKER_00: 28:18

I do struggle, and again, generalization, you know, clearly it's very different, man. But I struggled with empathy. You know, I wasn't I wasn't an empathetic boss. If someone came to me with an issue, I thought my job was to fix it. Because if I went to someone else with an issue, all I ever expected them to do was help me fix it. And so, you know, if you look at you look at uh Belle Hooks, um amazing feminist, probably my favourite feminist of all time, because she's the first feminist that actually started to understand the impact the system did on men. And she wrote the wonderful book Will to Change, uh, which resonated so much with the work that I see, but she talked specifically about men becoming disconnected with their feelings. So, how can you sit with someone else's feeling if you can't feel it yourself? If you don't have your if you're not connected to your own feelings, you cannot be empathetic. You literally can't, and so when we have so many men that become disconnected with their feelings, so all the men's work I do. So if I'm doing men, I do a lot of men-only sessions. All my if whenever I'm doing a men-only session, every session starts the same way. Is I start with a feelings will exercise and I get them to name a feeling off the feelings will. It depends, it depends on what level how much I've been working with them. First, it might just be how you're feeling now, or it might be just the feeling that you've you experienced in the last week. And I put them into pairs, and then they have to discuss those feelings for three to four minutes each, and it's so, so powerful. So powerful. I mean, people come out of it moved, connected, supported, and you know, once I've done that seven times my ship programme seven sessions, is some of those people that are really anxious going into that the first time round, it's just nothing for them. They just and they and they look forward to it.

SPEAKER_01: 29:58

Really strengthening that that feeling. Feeling and emotional intelligence muscle, I guess, for them, which is excellent. Okay, let's move on then because I want to talk also about your up-and-coming event, supporting boys to men to role models, which is taking place next week. You're hosting this incredible event in uh with Professor Green and Marcus Brigstock. What inspired you and what do you hope to achieve?

SPEAKER_00: 30:24

Well, to be honest, what inspired us? Uh, I mean, listen, let's be honest. The adolescence, we uh you can't go far away from adolescence to go, what what might have inspired this? The the programme, the drama. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The the the drama adolescence. But we actually have this is the so this is actually the ninth year we've done, I've done an event with Roxanne Hobbs. So the first ever event we do is Fathers in the Workplace, which is extra everyone told us we were mad, we were never gonna get fathers, but we did. We got over a hundred fathers together, but then I'm not a father, so for me, it just didn't make sense for me to keep on running something called fathers in the workplace. It just it just didn't feel authentic, it just didn't connect with me. Uh, and also it's it was exclusive to someone like me that's a childless not by choice. So we started something called Masculine to the Workplace, and we've moved the last four years. COVID kind of kind of killed our ability to sell tickets, so we moved to a different model, which is a partnership model. And so, as partners, we actually get them to be on the steering committee, and every year we put a theme in, and they always come out with a different theme. So they've never gone with a theme that we wanted to do. This is the first year, really, because I think there was this unifying thought, you know, around adolescents just put into the zeitgeist. There's the fact that actually when we talk about the system, the system isn't necessarily always helping them the males, right? So if we look at how boys are really struggling in school, if we look at all those stats, is we start to see an adolescent. So when my wife, my wife is an amazing childline volunteer, and so she took, she wouldn't watch it for three weeks. And I kind of said, I have to watch this for my work, you know. But she wanted to watch it with me. So we finally watched it, and what I think the thing that surprised us the most was how other people were surprised by this, you know, because obviously the work we do that this was nothing new to us, you know, that you know, these stories were nothing new, and of course it was shocking being dramatized, but actually, what boys were doing and and being radicalized, that wasn't that wasn't new, and so I think it gave us this real we went into that at a point at which everyone else was thinking the same. If I look at the response to adolescence, the response has been very singular. Everyone said your your work must have increased significantly. I went no, it hasn't, because actually everyone thinks it starts with boys. It doesn't start with boys at all, it starts with men. And don't get me wrong, we still need to support boys and we need to work with boys. But actually, uh a good example is I went into my first school with hardest nails, it was amazing. We did three, we did three boys circles, 12 people each, uh talking about masculinity, and I got three of them to have their nails painted. So if you look at the 100 man project, you will see three schoolboys with their nails painted. But I also out of the 36 boys, I painted 34 of their thumbs. So uh two of them didn't want to do it, but that's absolutely fine. Uh and it was interesting because I painted the not the headmaster, the vice, the assistant headmaster. I painted his nails, and he just said, I said, How how are you doing? He goes, I can't, he said, I can't even tell you how amazing today's been. Your initiative and these boys having their nails painted has just created such a buzz across the whole school, you know, including including it was lovely one of the girls coming along, and you know, and she was talking about how it was so nice to see a boyfriend with a nails painted, you know. I just thought, I thought there is there really is hope here, but then 90% of those boys kept it on until they went home and they took it off because they were scared about what their dads would say. Yeah, that comes back to the role model. It comes back to the role models. If we do not create the role models, it doesn't matter what we do with boys. We will not we will not get the change.

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

So what do you think are the biggest barriers to men becoming healthy role models?

SPEAKER_00: 34:04

That the man box is one of them. Uh, and we have to be, and again, that's why that's why I think we need to go back to the system because I think people, when they hear patriarchy, they think it's men that are withholding the are keeping the system as it is. It's not, it's everyone is keeping the system. You know, in the work that I do, I've seen as much pushback from women as I have from men, right? So if we think about these barriers and we think about these, you know, so so I think for me it's the man box, these things that we're expected to, not society expects us to do. So, for example, being a breadwinner, you know, being the career, you know, your career, your job as a man is to is to provide. You know, it is the second biggest fear of when we did a Mara Lyship survey, the second biggest fear for them, the biggest challenge they had was was the fear of not being able to be the breadwinner. Every man, every man of my age who's had a mental health breakdown has been because of that pressure. And whether that's real or perceived doesn't matter. It's that that is causing that. So I think one, it's the system, but I also think I'm gonna go back to Belle Hooks. Belle Hooks in her book talks about this, and I haven't found it. If anyone finds it and can send it to me, you'll you'll be my favourite person. But Sylvia the cartoonist apparently did a cartoon where the a woman's speaking to the fortune teller and saying, Wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it be nice if every man could actually share his feeling? And then the fortune teller goes, at two o'clock today, every woman in the world regrets the fact that men can now share their feelings. And yeah, and I think Esther Perel talks about it as well because she talked about feminism and how feminism allow women to actually really look at who they want to be, what they can be, their identity, what but and then she said, I think it's now's a time when men have that opportunity, but I fear that men and women, and it should say on and non-binary people, but men and women don't have the tools. And my experience, I hate to say it, is that I think we all need to recognise that we all need to learn, unlearn, and relearn. And what we're doing is we're putting it all on men. So if you think about this idea of man keeping, which is this new term that came up, oh my god, because women have to bear the burden of their partner not coping because they don't have enough friends. You're like, we can't ask men to have a system where men start feeling and start becoming caring without realizing that there's going to be some impact on that, and sometimes that can be really, don't get me wrong, it's really can be really hard, you know. But I've been in a situation where, you know, I know women who've who have diswinded and mental health issues have decided that they can't support me because of what I represent. And you know, that isn't helpful. And also I know with some of the senior men that I work with, they will talk to me about when they do start opening their feelings, they'll their the wives will go to them, I can't deal with your feelings. My life's difficult as it is without dealing with your feelings. And that and I and I think for that's not that's not I don't I definitely don't think that's women being heartless. I just think it's a recognition that we don't necessarily have those tools. You know, I think the first time I ever worked with Rocks, I asked Rox, do you coach men? And she kind of had to really think about it and goes, actually, I don't, and I like you know, and a lot of what she does around coaching is empathy and heartfelt, and you know, all of a sudden I was like, Well, there's a gap there, isn't there, right? You you you you know, so for me, we just have to recognise that we're gonna change the system, that we're all gonna have to work out how we can support that system change, and that can be really hard for some people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating. I know what harm the system has done on women, I know how broken some women are and how damaged they are, and I and I'm really filled with them. I mean, I you know, I can't even imagine it. And and for some people, they're not gonna have the energy, and I understand that. But for us that completely think that as we go on this journey, and this is what I hear a lot, is that it's for men to to taur and support men. And I'm like, yeah, we are, and we are doing that. Let's be really clear. You know, I give I do three brave spaces every month supporting men. I support men in a lot of the work I do, and I'm this 100% right that we need to be part of. I think we all need to do it together, and that does mean learning to deal with the fact that this man who's meant to be this pillar of strength, that you can't deal, you know. Sometimes I feel like they get that you can't deal with them being emotional, showing weakness because of what you've been taught men need to be.

SPEAKER_01: 38:14

Well, we're we're all stuck in our comfort zone, aren't we? You know, uh you're you're talking about the man box, but I also think there's the woman box as well. We've all got, you know, we're all caught up in what society expects of us and what how we've been brought up. There's also what's coming up for me is that phrase, it's getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. Because we are changing things and that doesn't always feel good. You know, you think about the first time you had a driving lesson and you had to put your foot on the accelerator, click the uh click the indicator, change the gear. It felt excruciating to manage all of that. We're in that process now, but it's it's at a much deeper level to do with our emotions, which is often unknown to many of us. It's tricky.

SPEAKER_00: 38:54

It's really tricky, it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01: 38:56

Some great insights here, Danielle. Thank you so much. So I want to move into thinking a bit more about how we can move from awareness and take more action. And you know, with systems change, you know, it's like it's little things at a time. So, what do you think is one simple action that leaders could take that could start making a difference today?

SPEAKER_00: 39:16

Uh it's quite hard, one action. I mean, the first action they need to take, if we took we talk about leadership, the first action we need today is they need to ask their people more questions. So, specifically around exclusion. So, do you ever feel excluded? What does that look like? Have you experienced microaggressions? And what can I do to help? You know, and and listen, listen uh to believe, listen intently, listen actively. That's always the first step. We have to, you know, if if really quite simple people, you know, people struggle to understand why we don't have enough inclusive companies, we just don't. It's because I haven't met a company yet at which there's accountability. And what I mean by that is people being promoted who aren't inclusive. And if you if all you did overnight was made it very clear that the first thing is we're not gonna promote a single person in this business who is not inclusive, and here's how we define inclusive things will change overnight. But I I wonder and I worry how many CEOs, and I'm not gonna put agenda on it, but how many CEOs are willing to make that when often sometimes they're the very people that haven't gone on the journey themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 40:28

So that's one of the lessons that's come through in other episodes in this podcast is that if if you want change in your organization, you as the senior leader have got to embrace that journey yourself. Otherwise, it's a waste of time expecting everybody else.

SPEAKER_00: 40:41

I can't tell you how many how many clients I've got to where I've done a talk with them, I work with their women's network, and then we get to the we get to the where I want to be doing the work, we get to inclusive leadership, and all of a sudden everything goes quiet. Too too many organizations don't want to do the hard work, they don't want to be uncomfortable, and you know, until that happens, we're not going to get truly inclusive businesses.

SPEAKER_01: 41:04

Yes, yes. But moving on from that, let's just think about the women who are listening today. How can we as women invite men into these conversations in a way that builds partnerships rather than polarity?

SPEAKER_00: 41:16

I think the first thing to do is actually ask them how they're doing, how they feel. So I run Brave Spaces for businesses, and the first question we we ask is, How are you feeling about being about being a man in the workplace right now? That's the that's start with that question. And then and then the second question we ask is what are the biggest challenges you face as a man in the workplace? And so all of a sudden you're we're listening and we're listening. Then then I then I ask, can you see the value in DEI? And guess what? The when I ask the men the initial question, what's the what's the what's the and I'd get them to do anonymous anonymously, is you know, I would say that 30% say, Oh, well, well, I I'm a man now, I don't have any opportunities. Am I am I now being am I now being pushed aside? You know, those same men that came into that space already talking negatively, by the time we get to the third question, can you see the value of DEI? 100% say yes. And then we say, What do you think your role is in it? They're very because what we've done is we've got them to lean in and got them to understand that actually when we talk about inclusion, it does need to include everyone. Uh, and that does mean, and if and if we look at if we look at the UK, for example, we talk I talk about women historically marginalised groups, but I would say that that the EDI industry has mainly completely ignored one historically marginalized group, which is the white working class, men just ignore them, and then and and and and I think there's a real and I think where we're seeing a lot of the backlash is where people talk about white privilege or male privilege, is often the person saying it might understand it, but the person listening to it often hears someone saying to them, you're privileged. Privilege does not equal privileged. And it's actually interesting when I get people to imagine senior, if I get people to imagine senior leaders, even if I'm doing it in the workplace and I get people to imagine men, and I ask them, when I said men, how many of you just sort automatically jump to white, straight, neurotypical, cis-gender men without disability? Everyone puts their hand up. And we have to recognise that men are intersectional too. A black man is still a man, a man with disability was still a man. So, you know, we come with you know in a week's time we're gonna celebrate International Men's Day. I I don't I say celebrate, I'm starting I actually talk about marking more than anything else. But actually, more I am leaning much more towards celebrate simply because I think we do have to shine a light on those men that are doing it differently. We can't we can't expect a response to the Andrew Tate' unless we actually spend time really showcasing those men that are actually doing an amazing thing, and also give them the airtime as well.

SPEAKER_01: 43:43

You know, the Andrew Tate gets so much airtime. Um, just as in certain politicians get so much airtime compared to others, it's making sure that there's some balance in that as well, isn't there? My final question: what gives you hope that masculinity, leadership, and inclusion can evolve together?

SPEAKER_00: 44:01

That 97% quote, the reality is the world is changing. It's it's a scary thought that the slowest it's ever gonna be in the future is today. It's only getting faster. We have to constantly learn, unlearn, and relearn. And if you're not leaning into this, I think you're just gonna be left behind. So that's my message to most men that are pushing back. I I get where they're feeling, but if all you're saying every time someone talks about inclusion diversity, you're saying, What about me, what about me, what about me, you're you're you're you're right to be worried because you're not leaning in. And what what gives me hope is that when those men do lean in, they do see real benefits. You know, as I said, 97% saying they're better lead or agents of change. And in our first report, one of my token man brain trusts said, Why are you? I said, Why are you doing this? He said, Because it's better for my career. Again, let's be really clear. That's not necessarily the case in every business. I know one person, his boss, he's a sponsor of one of the networks. I think it's the gender network. His boss warned him that this is negatively impacting his career. You know, so the reality is that that's what so there's there's an there's the com, but those businesses that do get this right, I just see the men go on these wonderful journeys, and I get to I get to have conversations and brave spaces. We had we had one on managing your mental health. I think I've done, I can't remember the average than the last one, but the previous three, when we got this is men strangers talking on Zoom. Our average feedback score for a Zoom workshop for an hour was 9.9, 9.7, and 9.9.

SPEAKER_01: 45:26

Wow. That says some that definitely fulfilling a lot of needs there then.

SPEAKER_00: 45:30

Yes, but the but the men that are coming know they need it, right? I think the issue that we've got is there are so many men that aren't coming. There are so many men that don't understand how the system's hurting them. So many men that are bogged down by this pressure to be the breadwinner, this pressure to only really invest in what's going to help their career because they've got that breadwinner. So I see so many men doing stuff when I hear people say our men are selfish. I'm like, are you kidding me? Most men that I know are just trying to do stuff for their family, they've got this amazing pressure on them. And actually, my dad, listen, my dad never did anything for himself his whole life. I watched it, you know. I wish he'd done more for himself.

SPEAKER_01: 46:07

Danieli, thank you so much. This has been a really eye-opening conversation. How can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_00: 46:14

On LinkedIn, I used to for a year and a half I posted every day. I'm taking a bit of a break because I needed it. Uh, but on LinkedIn or go to tokaman.org and you can uh link in from there.

SPEAKER_01: 46:25

Thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 46:28

Thank you, Mary. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_01: 46:31

Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.