She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women
Bold conversations with women leaders & allies.
Real stories, leadership insights, and the “undiscussables” shaping how we work today.
Each season of the She Leads Collective Podcast features three powerful themes:
Real Models – conversations with inspiring women leaders and business owners who share the truth behind their success—the bias they’ve faced, the doubts they’ve overcome, and the wisdom they’ve gained.
Allies – honest insights from men and women who are actively championing gender equity, revealing what true allyship looks like in action.
The Undiscussables – the topics no one talks about, but everyone is impacted by—emotions at work, wholistic leadership, womens health needs, mental health, baby loss, domestic violence—and how they shape our workplaces and leadership.
I’m Mary Gregory—Executive Coach, Author and host of She Leads Collective. My mission is to enable women to step into their full leadership potential and create workplaces where everyone can thrive.
Let’s change the conversation—together.
And if you’re a woman leader who’s ever doubted your confidence, explore my programme “Exploding the Confidence Myth” → https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/exploding-the-confidence-myth-tickets-1617750698889?aff=oddtdtcreator
She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women
Episode 25 - Radical Non-Judgment: Finding the Extraordinary in the Ordinary with Fiona Lindsay
What if the talent your organisation needs isn’t in plain sight? Creative maverick, coach, producer and writer Fiona Lindsay joins me to unpack radical non-judgment, deep listening and the power of story to help people feel seen, speak with impact and thrive.
This week I’m joined by Fiona Lindsay—founder of Awaken Her, creative producer, writer and globally acclaimed coach who blends psychology, performance and storytelling to unlock potential. We explore Fiona’s philosophy of radical non-judgment—how a childhood of constant change and a career in theatre taught her to ask why, what, and how come before making assumptions. She shares the persuasion, belief and behind-the-scenes courage it took to shake up the RSC, why confidence ebbs and flows, and how to build it by acting on what you truly value. We discuss creating safe spaces at work, Fiona’s “Work Well” drop-in coaching model, and a moving project supporting young women post-prison into paid media roles—proof that the extraordinary often hides in the ordinary. If you’re leading teams, coaching others, or simply want to be greater later, this one’s rich with practical wisdom and heart.
Connect with Fiona on:
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/fiona-lindsay-49227a17/
Instagram: @fionalindsaycoaching, @fionalindsayco, @asliceoflife_thepodcast
or her website https://www.awaken-her.com
🔗 Connect with Mary: marygregory.com
📣 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marygregory
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mary_gregory/
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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching
Hello and welcome to All Leads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory, and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead it all today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game, not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to today's episode. So, what if the extraordinary talent we most need? Isn't sitting in plain sight, but hidden in the places we least expect. Well, my guest today is someone who has spent her career finding an extraordinary spark in our overlooked places and people. Fiona Lindsay is the founder of Awaken Her, a globally acclaimed coach, a creative producer and writer. With over 25 years of international practice, Fiona has worked with a diverse range of clients, including Netflix, Panzer Research UK, BlackRock, HarperCollins, and many more. Fiona blends psychology, performance and storytelling to create transformative programs that help high-achieving individuals communicate with impact and lock their potential and thrive. Her background is in theatre, radio and film, and she has a great unique approach which combines creativity with human insight. She's also a published author, writing the memoir for the actress Alison Steadman, Out of Character, which became an instant five-star bestseller. And today I'm hoping to explore with Fiona her journey as a creative maverick, her philosophy of radical non-judgment, which is a term I happen to really, really love, and how she helps others find the extraordinary in the ordinary. Fiona, a big warm welcome to you today. Thank you for giving up your time to join me.
SPEAKER_01:It's a pleasure. I'm really happy to be here, Mary. Hello.
SPEAKER_00:Hello. And to start with, I'd love to ask you, what do you mean by radical non-judgment and what does it mean to you?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's really interesting because you know, um, I have only recently started thinking about this and realizing how important it's been in my life. And as you were talking there, I was thinking, when did that begin and why did that begin? And I think it's worth mentioning that so much of what any of us do began way back. You know, that that phrase, show me the child at seven, and I'll show you the man or woman, etc. And my childhood was very peripatetic. I was moved because of my dad's work in the Navy from pillar to post, and before 11, went to 10 or 11 schools. And I'd always pitch up in the middle of term. And I was that very freckly faced Scottish girl, and I'd be going to schools in Europe and in England predominantly, southern Europe and England. And I'll never forget going to school in Cornwall, and the headmaster, and I my mum, I don't know why she'd done this, but she'd put me in a kilt with a berry, right? I go into this school in Cornwall, and the headmaster, Mr. Jones, says, This is Fiona, she's from Scotland. And immediately, even though I'd never lived in Scotland, immediately all of my classmates formed an opinion of me. And they immediately formed that opinion and judged me. I was the Scottish girl, I spoke a different way. I didn't actually I spoke like I speak now. Um, but they started, you know, calling me in a Scottish accent, etc., and then names and things, and I was judged, and I was always judged from the moment I walked in. And maybe that rubbed off in me in a different way. I was always really careful never to do the same, and I think that has trailed through my life, actually. I, you know, you I work a lot in the literature world, and there is that old stock phrase, never judge a book by its cover, and it's so true. Never judge a person. You know, in theatre, which is my background, um, in the rehearsal room, we are invited to ask a multitude of questions and not necessarily have any answers. And when approaching character, we must never make a judgment. We must never think of, let's just say, the Scottish Bathemat best, oh, they are evil people. We must ask why and what and how come and all those things. So I think possibly my early years and my training and my subsequent years in an industry that doesn't judge but is very judged. I think I just within my DNA, I don't make judgment. And I actually think that's a really useful tool.
SPEAKER_00:It is, absolutely, and something that many, many of us could benefit from. And certainly if you're in the coaching world, it's a really important tool. And as a leader, it's a really important tool as well. But you've reminded me of how easy it is to judge and how quickly we do as human beings, and particularly as children, you know, they say out of the mouths of babes. There's no editing, is there? They're just straight out there letting it rip, really. But what a tough lesson for you. But how that how valuable as well.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's interesting, isn't it? I think it both ways, it's about survival. You know, we are animal instincts. And I think that those young people that I encountered as I grew up through my younger education, that was survival for them. And for me, my survival was actually the opposite. It was actually don't make any big decisions about anybody because you don't know who is going you're going to need to sort of be, you know, to help you through.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Well, let's move a bit more into your journey as a maverick and an outsider. Um, you describe yourself as a creative maverick. And again, how has that shaped your career and what you do in terms of your contribution to others?
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting. And another, I think, really useful combination of words, creative and maverick. Um, they go together really nicely. It's a brilliant marriage. For me, maverick is the person who isn't conventional, who does things sort of maybe in a slightly topsy-turvy way or not expected for sure. And I didn't coin that phrase for me. I'd never I find it very hard to say anything about me, actually. But it was a former artistic director at the Royal Shakespeare Company who said, Fiona, you are a real creative maverick. He also used the term intrapreneur because I was in the organization shaking it up like an entrepreneur. And he also said, maybe rather less flatteringly, you are a combination of a chameleon and an amphibious tank. So basically what he was saying was, I maybe consciously or unconsciously, most likely unconsciously, dared to go where other people did not go. You know, this was a this hugely dyed-in-the-wall organization. It's an amazing organization, but it's like an oil tanker. It takes forever to turn around. And I, you know, I was young, I was in my twenties and I began there, and perhaps I didn't have that patience or just wasn't aware of that, it was so slow to turn. And I would just go, I'd quite like to do this, I'd quite like to do that. And I'd knock on the right door and I'd persuade and persuade and persuade and annoy people and got things done.
SPEAKER_00:Can you give me an example of something that you did?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, it started actually uh in 1994. I had spent four years travelling the length and breadth of the UK in my beaten-up old Volvo, and I was like, oh, I knew those motorways like the back of my hand, and I was running three, three-hour workshops with many actors who are now very, very famous. Um, and I got tired of that. And I thought, oh, I want to get, I was trained as an actor, so I thought I want to get back on stage, but not as an actor. I thought I'd like to show how these shows are put together. The company didn't do that at the time. And I knocked on the door of the then company manager, Sonia de Assange, and she was she was very charming and very polite and went, but Fiona, we don't do that here. We do shows. That's what we do. We do shows. And I said, but I can show the audience how we do our shows. And she went, Well, if you can persuade Jeff Locker, he was the production manager, so I went to Jeff, and Jeff went, Well, if you can persuade, and if you then I went to someone else, and eventually I had all these people that I persuaded, and they said, Okay, you've got no budget for this, so you have to make money from it. Um, we've given you very little support. So I went to the box office and I went to the marketing departments, and I just persuaded them. But most importantly, I persuaded the actors. I actors are treasure, you know, I across the board in so many different ways. And we were doing The Broken Heart, which was a Jacobean play, and that cast was second to none. And I thought, I mean, I was young, so I mean, if I was to do it now, I wouldn't do it with the whole cast, but I invited the whole cast, and quite a lot of them, I mean, more than half, pitched up, and I invited lighting and directors and everything, and brilliantly there was a full house. So we packed the Swan Theatre at five pounds a pop, you know, that's so 500 seats at five pound a pop. I can't do that math. But you know, and I went on stage at half ten, or maybe ten o'clock it was. I actually booked two hours, which is ridiculous because that's longer than the first half of the show. And I said, hello and welcome. I had no fear, and you know, unscripted, unrehearsed, and we did this thing, and you know, we looked at scenes and I unpicked scenes, we've looked at how the lightings work, the light works, you know, all the different movements and the new technology, and we made it a show. It wasn't me on my own, but I did it with them.
SPEAKER_00:And you so you ran it without any real structure. You just went in there and opened up the exploration of what went on to make the show happen.
SPEAKER_01:The structure is always in my head, always. You know, from my training at drama school as a as an actor, I was really fortunate in my second year, and this was open to everybody, but not everybody took it, only four of us. Uh, do you want to earn some extra money in the holiday time? And I thought, yes, please, I don't want to work in Topshop again. So would you create, could you create a show, no budget, to take into those. I mean, they were called um areas of high priority in Edinburgh. And at that time, the AIDS epidemic was still very rife in Edinburgh. And I thought, absolutely, I want to do that. Um, and when you have to structure something from nothing, you know, you you are it feels like the sort of seat of your pants, but it's not really at all. You have to, it's like this conversation, you're you managing this conversation, you know where it's going, and I'm trusting that you do that. And so it's exactly the same, like that event on stage, or creating a show, those shows out of nothing, way back in the when I was still at drama school. You sort of you're it you you've got enough experience to know, you know, about beginning and middle and end. And actually, drama school training teaches you so much about all of that.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, the courage to do that is phenomenal, but also what I hear a key strength of yours is persuasiveness, the fact you were able to engage everyone, including the whole cast, to come and play with you and all the different elements of the theatre. You know, you the the math is two and a half thousand pounds you earn the theatre from doing that event with that one-off event. Are you able to unpack and share with us what you think the key is to being persuasive?
SPEAKER_01:Good question. Interesting, isn't it? I think maybe some of us are born with that within them. I don't know, but I actually think underneath it, when you think about it in the most honourable sense, it's enthusiasm. And enthusiasm is a, you know, communication is a transfer of enthusiasm. I was lucky to have an incredibly enthusiastic dad. And I've always had that within me. I've always thought that everything is possible and not impossible. That's where I've always begun. So with that energy, you know, you knock on a green uh dressing room door, or you walk into the green room, or you knock on a you know manager's door, and you you share that enthusiasm and that the potential and where it's going to go. So again, I think that came from way, way back. But I have to say, and I I was I was out with the current director of the Royal Shakespeare Company the other night, and he began in 1994, and he remembers me doing all of that work and beginning that work. Um, you know, when you have to steal yourself, I'm not a naturally, despite how I might sound, I'm not a naturally gregarious person. I am passionate about what I love, and that that passion drives me forward. So I would be knocking on doors of all sorts and hanging around in the green room and going to do the ask, and I my heart would be beating. And if someone said no, you go, you know, this is hard. And in later years I'd program for big literature festivals and have to do exactly the same. And it's you know, you have to steal yourself. I'm not a you know, naturally born, you know, uh sort of confident, I suppose, in that respect person. I can do many things that people think, wow, she's confident, but it's a lot of effort.
SPEAKER_00:That's interesting as well, because I do a lot of work with confidence, and I I agree with you that I think confidence, it's like this thing that we try and describe and hang on to, but it ebbs and flows. And there's something about when we're when we're aligned with ourselves and when we really believe in what we're doing, it kind of just comes out naturally. Like I'm hearing, you know, that situation that you described at the RSC. You really believed in that as a concept to actually let's unpack the play and how we put the shows on for the audience so they get an insight. You really believed in that, and that gave you that confidence, is what I'm hearing.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that's really interesting what you've just said. I think you know, what is it and that persuasion? Belief belief is fundamental. And I've said it I also like you do a lot of coaching, and I've always hated the phrase fake it till you make it, because I don't believe that gives you any substantial confidence. I think when you when you're pretending something, that's different from acting, you can come to that. But when you're pretending, and it's a superficial costume you're wearing, you're never feeling grounded. So I would always say, actually find that tiny kernel, that seed that you go, actually, that that is me, that works for me, that I that's a core value of mine. Oh, and then water it, grow it, and see what happens.
SPEAKER_00:Very good. So again, alignment with your values, which we had a guest on earlier in the season, a young leader actually. She succeeded really well and really early in her career. She's not even 30 yet. And her her whole take was start with your values. That's where you start. Because if you're aligned with your values, life is just so much easier.
SPEAKER_01:100%. And you know, so often people will go off track, can be taken off track, and that's when we falter, that's when we stumble and go, Who am I anymore? But when you stay true or return to true, then I think amazing things can happen.
SPEAKER_00:Let's move on a bit more with you and your journey. You've said that you've never felt fully part of any one group. How has that experience of being an outsider helped you notice, listen, and support others?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so uh, you know, I've touched on my school years, and then at my drama school, I was the youngest by many, many years. I went straight at from school at 17 to drama school. I've also, you know, and I know it's silly to mention, maybe superficial, but people can't see me here, but I have more freckles than I've ever seen anybody in my whole life, and I'm 60. So it's um, you know, I there's lots of things that have put me or I've placed myself on the edge of things for safety's sake. But when you're on the edge of anything, even at the RSC, when I was between the creative teams and the administrative teams, when you're in between or on the edge, you are gifted strangely a certain time, and you're also gifted strangely, if you choose it, a certain invisibility. And what that allows is you to really develop you and to take time to listen and learn to listen, and take time to look and learn to look, and really importantly, in my world of work, get take time to get under the surface, get under the skin, step into the shoes of another person. So actually, it's strangely it's all worked out.
SPEAKER_00:That is incredible, and you used it in your work brilliantly. I mean, I want to bring it back to the radical non-judgment piece as well. I mean, they all seem to come together and it's really fuels what you do in your work and supports your work. I also like to ask then, what role do you feel deep listening and absorbing someone else's energy plays in helping people feel seen? So thinking about your clients and some of the people you've worked with. How do you help them feel seen?
SPEAKER_01:That's a really nice question as well. And stranger, as you were talking there, the word delicate came into my mind. I think there's a delicacy to communication that perhaps we don't always register, especially in a time of you know, that massive loudness that's out there in social media. I think you know, our ears, you know, are the most delicate part of our bodies, right? They are really fragile and are in a way they're sort of representative of our senses, which are fragile. Not that doesn't mean we're broken, it does, it just means they're delicate, it's delicate. And I think that so in all my work, whether that be uh working with you know an actor to help them tell their story that I then turn into a memoir, or working with a client, you know, who's a big-hitting CEO person but actually is feeling rather you know anxious and fragile, or or running workshops with young people as I used to do. Um I think the most important thing is if you allow people to feel that they have the time to express themselves in the way that they need to or only can, then I think that helps somebody be seen and heard. So for example, you know, um, way back in the day at the Royal Shakespeare Company, I was traveling, in fact, you know, luckily to travel all over the world, working with kids in very, very disadvantaged circumstances. And some of those young children, young people, um found it really hard to even say their name. So you wouldn't wait for them to say their name. You'd make it very easy for them to say something else, and then eventually their name would come. In the coaching world, I will always begin really simply with somebody because I think it's like again in this conversation, I don't know what's coming next. My any of my clients don't know initially what's coming next, and so of course there's a nervousness, so you want to be able to give space for that without focusing on it.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, so it's moving from that place of being the expert and the the knowing to being the the person who's curious. This is where the radical non-judgmental comes in as well.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, but I also think it's interesting that now it's much more proliferated as a as a um an industry, I don't know that's the right word, it feels too heavy, um, by women. And that is brilliant.
SPEAKER_00:So you feel the feminine element of coaching has come to the fore and that's made a real difference.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. You know, I was talking using sort of soft power and talking about the power of that many, many, many years ago, and everybody would be laughing, actually. The the men I was working with, you know, you're the fluffy person, Fiona, and actually it that is total rubbish. You know, if you can enable a group or a human being to feel safe enough to begin to say, this is what's troubling me, or this is what I'd like to explore, and you do that using it just step by step, uh sort of, you know, or threading one bead at a time in terms of their confidence, then in a gentle fashion, and I think that that that is very productive on a way forward. Lovely.
SPEAKER_00:So we're going to move on and just be start looking at some examples of your work and the impact you've had in the approach that you take. You talk about finding the extraordinary in the ordinary. You've mentioned to me about a project that you work you worked when you were helping young women who were from quite complex backgrounds and you helped them step into the workplace. If they hadn't worked with you, they wouldn't necessarily have ended up stepping into the workplace. So just share something about that project. I think that story is fascinating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's um so for many years now, for nearly eight years, I've worked with a large media organization, streaming, global media organization. And um about three years ago, we they created a philanthropic opportunity um to work with uh young women who had just come out of prison, um, but within the prison education system had sort of picked up on the creative arts, but especially in film and television. Um, and so three women were um selected. And then once the women selected, they uh the company came to me and said, Could you put together um a project really to demonstrate how this might work, you know, because we can't just you know have coaching sessions, it needs to lead to something. So I put a proposal together which they loved, and um, about six months after putting that together, we began. And I began with three women. And I have to say, it was one of those, it felt a lot like coming home because in my drama school career, that's sort of where I, you know, my second year of work where I went into these areas of high priority, it felt like coming home. It felt like the opportunity to give back as well. So my I was with each of them twice a week on Zoom and sometimes in person. We would gather as well. And initially, for the first six months of a three-year project, the job was to actually just get them to turn up, you know, get just get them to turn up and be and feel safe with me, you know, um, who whose experience is completely different. But very strangely, there was an absolute deep connection fuse between all three of, you know, we I did individual with them individually and drew them together as groups. And what was so, again, ordinary and the extraordinary, you know, I haven't had a privileged background. You know, I've my dad and my mum and dad worked really hard to keep us all all three, you know, going. But I was warm and safe. These neither, none of these three women were warm and safe. And this was they knew this was a really good opportunity because this company was also paying them as well to participate in this project. So the first six months were about establishing assimilation and new environment and trust and beginning back to that person couldn't say their name, beginning to go, actually, you might be able to have a strong voice at the table. What is that voice? You know, discovering voice, discovering um recalling experience and putting it to good purpose. And then the next stage was in the next six months was identifying um production companies uh in London who we could place them with. And by the end of that six months, they were placed and paid. And then the next bit of time was to actually make sure that they turned up, make sure that they didn't sink back into feeling inadequate, feeling that they had nothing to offer, or even worse, bad ways. Um, and I have to say, they were just shining lights. And what they taught me about resilience and tenacity, and you know, all those things, um courage that are really important that sometimes we can just let let go, um, was phenomenal. And uh they are all thriving. And um the project I'm sad this project ended a year ago, um, and I missed them dreadfully.
SPEAKER_00:But they're still thriving.
SPEAKER_01:They're thriving, yes.
SPEAKER_00:So what a fantastic story of absolutely supporting them and trans helping them transform their lives.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's uh I think we all have a duty of care towards one another, and it can be in that sort of big sense, like that project was, or it can be in a much more reduced sense. It could even just be to do with how we look after our elderly parents or parent or or how we communicate with our next door neighbours. But I do think back to radical non-judgment as well, you know, that duty of care to actually think, actually, how can I look out for these people or this person? Because one day I might need that too.
SPEAKER_00:Just a lovely and amazing story. Thank you for sharing that. Beautiful. What actually did you learn about resilience and creativity? You said you learnt a lot from them. So, what were some of the things that you actually took away?
SPEAKER_01:Oh gosh, I haven't really thought about it in that way, but I think actually resilience is it it moves, it shifts. You know, we don't have to have it all the time, and nor do we have to have it all the time. But I think when we need it, we must listen to our instinct. And you know, often life prevents you from listening to your instinct because there are so many other things distracting you, and listening to your our basic instinct what is right, what is wrong, what is true to me, that is really important. And actually, when life hits, that's when you have to really listen to yourself, and that listening to yourself, I believe, helps you get through and helps you your your ability to be realistic r resilient.
SPEAKER_00:Fantastic. And is that a project you're going to be repeating, or was that a one-off?
SPEAKER_01:It was a one-off, but they're there, they as a result of their work. So when um people are coming into the production houses now who are young with little experience, these women are doing some support work that the other way around.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, fantastic. So they're like being mentors for other women as well now. Incredible, wonderful story. Why do you think so much talent then gets overlooked? I mean, that's a very big general question, I realise, but there is a sense that there are is a lot of talent out there. I mean, I had I had um Lucy Ryan on uh very at the beginning of my this season actually talking about how midlife women are a huge talent resource that just go unnoticed. But I don't think they're the only ones that go unnoticed. There's just an element of a lot of talent seems to get overlooked. Why do you think that is, and what can we do about it?
SPEAKER_01:It's difficult, isn't it? I think today I think there are gatekeepers, there are lots of gatekeepers that prevent it, you know, it make it difficult for people to get to the person who would help them along the way. And I think being helped along the way is really important, but so there are gatekeepers. Also, with social media, suddenly those people who are once just one thing are now an expert in everything, and because they were they're once they were once one thing and a famous one thing or an established one thing, and now they're other things too. It makes it very difficult for people to get into you know communities that they feel should naturally thrive in. I also think people are lazy. I think we're lazy. I think back to judgment. I think we go, okay, we'll just have that. You know, I think big organizations have a way of filtering, I mean, maybe they have to, have a way of filtering um application forms. Often jobs are filled internally, but the advert has to go out.
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, so there's so many blocks to actually make and there's also AI comes into that as well, that even applying for a job these days, yeah, you've got to you've got to make sure your application's got the words that the algorithm's looking for.
SPEAKER_01:All of that. So it's a bit like a game of snakes and ladders or dodgums. You know, you've got to get to the other side. And I think to get to the other side, back to where we sort of began in a way, being a little bit more hustly and a little bit more creative mavericky is a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Uh there's something about how things have been overstructured as well. That you know, that going back to the whole AI bit with the algorithm in the recruitment processes and things, how difficult that can make it to apply for a job and for there to be that unusual candidate to come through because they're not gonna necessarily gonna match what the algorithms are looking for.
SPEAKER_01:No, I think it's hard. I do think it's hard. You know, I have a 29-year-old son who's a bit like me in his maverickness, but you know, has gone through a phase where he felt he needed to look into the sort of a more traditional pathway, and it was you know, he's got his very skilled, got nowhere, and so he's just gone, that's not for me, and that's correct, you know. And I also think this is something that again drama school training gave me, so I feel very comfortable about it. I make a lot of my own work and a lot of my opportunities happen. I don't a bit like the RSC, you know, no one said to me, Fiona, will you do this? I went, I want to do this, right? And I think the more of us that go, I'd like to try this, I want to do this, then I think that that makes you you're visible to yourself first and foremost. And I think that's important.
SPEAKER_00:So putting putting yourself, you're in your own driving seat is what I'm hearing. You make it happen. And actually, I I I I'm a great believer that actually wherever you work, whatever your life is, you're still in that position where you can make it happen. But often the way we've been brought up or socialized, we might be educated that you know we're going to be going into this big organization, you'll get looked after in there, this is what will happen. But actually, it's up to you to create what you want to happen, not necessarily always going along with this is how things are.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's really the only way to think. And I luckily had a grandmother who stopped work at 82, who moved, you know, you know, left school at 14 with nothing, and then you know, she ducked and dived and did all sorts of things to you know help herself event initially, and then my mother and her. family and kept going till she was 82 or 85 in fact you know as a legal secretary having retrained at 60 you know when you have that as example and a father who's similarly was similarly inclined you know you don't see the blocks and of course the blocks are there and my head is probably covered in foreheads you know knocking my head against the walls of opportunity all the time but I think I think it's true and I had a great phrase the other day which um I'll share because I thought it was so great it was talking about you know mid-age women and I never use that phrase either I just think I I you know I probably do look my age and all of that sort of stuff but I just don't think or feel it I think okay still keep going I'm still as energetic as I was but the phrase was greater later I thought yes I like that greater later greater later yeah I'm gonna be greater later fabulous I actually got another question just off the cuff do you believe that we create our own luck? I think if you keep you know people talking about vibrations and energy and all of that I think I think if we sort of keep stirring our pot proverbial pot then there you know that's someone will sort of know what you know the will feel it or smell it and want a bit of it. I think I so therefore you know someone we might get an opportunity that comes our way yes I think is the answer to that because if you do nothing you know coin a Shakespeare phrase nothing comes from nothing you know so I've always believed you know just one small step whatever that step of act make it active not a thought it has to be an active thing.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely and actually that comes back to that you're right to beginning when we talk about confidence if you want to be more confident do something take some action even if it's the tiniest tiniest little action because actually in taking that action that starts to build that sense of confidence.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah absolutely I mean this podcast for example no one's made you do it you've decided to do it and you're here you are you know absolutely doing it you know and you will feel different today than you felt when you decided to do it and from the moment you began to do it. So it's it's that's it's that process isn't it and I I think that and I think that's a great education as well I think you know I look back to um my own education but I've done a lot of work in schools with the Royal Shakespeare Company and sometimes I think actually just in terms of confidence enabling young people through participation in theatre and drama which is just and keep doing it and doing it and doing it. If that began let's say tomorrow a in all the schools from infant school and continued for 18 years in 18 years we'd see a group of young people come out with this wonderful inbuilt natural inherent gorgeously rich confidence thing called confidence and be able to do these presentations and keynote speeches with with real authenticity as opposed to anything else.
SPEAKER_00:Fabulous well let's let's move on and think a bit more about leaders and organizations because you work very much in that space as well what do you think leaders can learn from your work particularly about creating safe spaces where people can thrive first of all they have to do the work on themselves.
SPEAKER_01:We can never expect anybody to be how we wish them to be if we don't understand ourselves. So I think those CEOs that I work with both men and women who are willing to to look at themselves in the mirror you know hold the mirror up to nature as it were I think that's that's the first step. And I think that when they do that then immediately they become much more understanding of anybody sitting in front of them you know cognizant of their team and their team's requirements. You know it's interesting back to theater how theatre teaches so much so in theatre you will you you know you I could be cast in a play right and so we're we're we're within a cast of characters and within that cast of characters there's the antagonist the protagonist there's the foil the mentor the confidant etc that's the A strand and there's a similar on the B strand right so as a person in that play or even directing that play I you know I have to know who I am in this story and I have to know who I am in this story according to who else is in this story and also according to what other people say about me is what I as well as I say about myself. That is fundamental. That's where you begin in any rehearsal process. So I think about leaders and leadership if you know and then they and their team are the cast of characters. Now we're we're always the protagonist in our story right we are the leading person in our story but we have to know who our antagonist is we have to know who our foil is we have to know who the mentor is and I think all of this if you do your work on yourself first and then you look outward and think who am I within all of these people I think the more you do that the more sort of a cohesiveness builds and a harmony and that harmony leads to trust and safety.
SPEAKER_00:That's a really lovely analogy the way you've described it there as well but also what I'm really getting is there's a such a consistent thread through this podcast in just about every leader I've spoken to the work starts with yourself. You can't just make other people do it if you're not looking at it from your own point of view and what and doing the inner work on yourself first. Yes which we really really important.
SPEAKER_01:Which we have to do too you know I I find that that's incredibly important. I was watching this really lowering the tone maybe or maybe not I was watching Netflix and Meghan Markle's second series of her show with Love Megan. Oh right she had um the uh development coach I don't know he's called I don't know what he's called but I don't know what his title is Jay Shetty right so he's a phenomenal star on Instagram and all that and you know and he has all these big huge events and everything. And he comes across when you see him on those platforms as like charismatic and going just oozing this sort of je ne sais quoi and everything. Anyway he was there with his wife and they were cooking and making various things and he was at sea and he went oh I don't know I need some help I don't know how to do this and you know and Megah went hey dude you're not meant to be like this you're the guy who knows how to be and he went this was spot on he went I don't know it all the time and actually being like this is really important for me to not know and to feel anxious because then I understand those people who come to me.
SPEAKER_00:And I thought it was a very honest thing for him to say but but also there's that whole thing about as human beings we almost aspire to being perfect and that completely rules out the ability to have those vulnerable moments and those moments where actually good goodness me I don't know what I'm gonna do here or I don't know what the decision is. You know that isn't perfectly human reaction but it's being able to recognise them work through it and the feelings that might emerge from for you as a result of that is so so important.
SPEAKER_01:You know there's it doesn't have to be perfect it you don't might not have to you might not be able to finish all of that is you know very to accept that and allow it you know from both a a person in the situation or as a leader is really important I think.
SPEAKER_00:I mean I think that's that's so true and it leadership and life can be messy and we've got to accept that that will happen. But there's that's something I learned actually from um a leader at Tesco's actually is always leave people in a better place than you found them. Even if you can't solve or get everything resolved at once it's like as long as we've moved it and we've edged further forward that's what's important. Are we doing better today than we were doing yesterday?
SPEAKER_01:That's a great question to ask yourself I think I think that's a really great way to look at things as long as that person saying you know always leave people better you know better off had what was the phrase again? Leave people in a better place than when you found them better place than when you found them yeah so the person saying that any of us saying that we have to walk into that place with eyes open ears open heart open head open because what fits for one person might not fit for another so you've got to be really careful and sensitive about what it is great I love that that's a real build on what we were just saying.
SPEAKER_00:So um I also wanted then to explore how do you think so what you know on this subject of being mindful of people and having your eyes ears heart open to the differences that people are in how they're being and their different strengths and skills what can organisations do to notice more what untapped potential there is within their people?
SPEAKER_01:So I think you know there I work with this big um media company and they have made a wonderful investment across the board it's not just in me obviously and probably many people like me but they've made a wonderful investment in training. So it's not just for you know a special sort of team day out or an off-site you know uh you know emergency meeting um or it's because someone's got a big speech to do it's almost daily or you know weekly or daily you know um and I think that is really important to actually so if you have that sort of that that um philosophy I suppose of coaching and training embedded at the heart of an organization and it's without judgment again without judgment a radical judgment it's just that we want to enable our human beings in this organization to feel that they can expand and grow and stretch or test or or you know just or or just feel they've got you know someone to see and hear them. I think that's that's where I would start I'd also say as well that and I've been talking about this recently with another organization that actually so many large organizations operate in silos this department doesn't know what that department does and actually everybody needs to know because if you don't share that knowledge or understanding there's just always going to be clash. So I think ways I've got some work coming up with this um with uh um some TV production companies and their internal stakeholders you know if one team of internals don't understand what the externals do there's always going to be um attention so I think that sort of work as well you know and it's more than hello I am Fiona and I do this it's actually properly running you know doing sessions for people.
SPEAKER_00:And and maybe going shadowy shadowy colleagues and things in different parts of the organization. So real sense I've got a real sense of integrating learning and development into the day to day so it's it's normalized. This is just what we do around here.
SPEAKER_01:It is normal I think it's normalized. I do you know I created something called work well initially for Netflix and then for a couple of companies in America and then for a company in the Middle East and so basically work well it's exactly what it says on the tin you know organizations need and want I hope their um employees their team members to work well to work to their you know potential but also to be well at work so I said look on this is um this works well it's like a drop-in service you don't have to go and sign up for a you know through HR you don't have to tell your boss you just know that me or someone like me is available on these days at and there are this many sessions per day anyway um that has proved very successful you know it's it was signed up full up signed up within you know the day of putting on a notice board uh certainly at Netflix um and people individu I do it as individuals individuals turn up and you know this they might have said I want to become better at speaking out at meetings or I want to help with help with this keynote speech or I'm not having impact you know they might say a lot of things but always I think the golden thread throughout every single person is you know in in a busy life in a in working within a busy organization no matter who you are we all need time just to go breathe out and and and in the in the exhale discover you know both where the pain points are and where our strength is.
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful lovely okay I also get then in summarising everything that you've just said there integrating development not and making development not just about building skills but also looking after yourself and giving yourself space to breathe and also the cross fertilization piece as well. Really important. You've described some lovely lovely approaches there Fiona thank you for that so we're gonna sort of move into closing our conversation now and I'd just like you to think about your career as a whole so you've had such a rich career and as you look back you know you've been creating safe spaces for people you've taught people about how to be visible and to belong what do you think keeps you going as a creative maverick?
SPEAKER_01:I get excited by story I get excited I can see story in anything you know you could give hand me something and I can make a story up with it or you could I could stand next to somebody in a bus stop and I can make up a story. I get excited by story I get excited by environment I was at a theatre a couple of nights ago in in London um watching Born with Teeth and I just went on my own and I sat there and I felt like I was at home again um I get excited by you know the union between something on a stage and a group of strangers I get excited by that um that keeps me going I get excited when someone says can you help me with and I think oh I don't know yes I can I will I get excited by that too you know someone a few years ago said I'm stuck I'm a composer I've got to write something for the BBC and I'm stuck and you somebody recommended you could you I thought oh really not sure anyway um long story short I wrote a piece called Scene and it was performed at the Barbican and then the Albert Hall you know that was like incredible um and all because I thought there's a story here I can tell I can tell a story and I can I get I I I think that's what drives me forward and also I have to pay bills.
SPEAKER_00:Well you have to pay bills that's absolutely but uh what I get is you are someone who really entertains possibility that's come through the whole of our conversation that there's no hesitation you might have an immediate oh can I do that oh yes of course I can you immediately go into the possibility rather than letting the fear take over which is very powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I'm also really aware of what I can't do as well. I think that's quite important. I was out this morning and uh been having this conversation with with um the Royal Shakespeare company about various things I think God if they asked me to be that I'd have to say no because I'm really rubbish with money. So you know um I was a producer I grew up through that company and ended up as a producer I was a create creative producer for them. The aspect of that role that I absolutely terrified me was the I can run a budget obviously but I don't want that now that's not what I'm good at. And I think it's really important to know what you can't do well as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yes playing to your strengths and what gives you energy is what I'm hearing. Okay and if you could leave our listeners with one call to action for embracing radical non-judgment which has been a theme throughout this conversation so embracing that radical non-judgment in their own leadership what would it be?
SPEAKER_01:Oh gosh I think this is a roundabout way of saying it maybe we haven't touched but but presence presence of mind presence of body actually that doing the being bit of being a human being I think if and that sounds very easy but what that requires is for all of us to peel off the mask to step into the vulnerable place and stand there for long enough to feel at ease and if you can do that with yourself then your understanding of other people is so much greater.
SPEAKER_00:Lovely yes I agree when we understand ourselves better the things we like maybe not like so much we're in a much better place to be compassionate and understanding towards others aren't we Fiona thank you so much for joining me today it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation.
SPEAKER_01:You're welcome I've loved it it's really nice to be I do a lot of interviewing so it's really nice to be on the receiving end of uh of of someone's curiosity real joy thank you how can people find you um I have a website it's called it's www.fionalindsay dot fiona lindsay company dot com and then my female focused um coaching is www.awaken.com okay so both your websites you're not on any social media bad badly yeah yeah I'm on on LinkedIn you can find me on LinkedIn and um on Instagram under my name.
SPEAKER_00:Okay okay thank you so much you're very welcome it's a pleasure thank you thank you so much for listening to the G Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment change happens through conversation so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.
