S2 Ep7: Women’s Safety Is a Societal Issue - Tackling Harassment at the Root with Amy Watson

What if women’s safety stopped being framed as something women have to manage — and started being treated as a societal responsibility we all share?

In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, Mary Gregory is joined by Amy Watson, social impact entrepreneur and founder of HASSL — a global movement and social enterprise tackling harassment and violence against women at the root.

Amy challenges the long-standing narrative that places responsibility for safety on women, and explains why real, sustainable change means addressing the systemic and cultural drivers of harassment and violence — including male violence. Together, Mary and Amy explore why quick fixes and safety tools often increase women’s mental load without solving the problem, why naming the issue matters, and how HASSL is building change through practical tools, education, training, technology and strategic partnerships.

A core theme of this conversation is inclusion without dilution: inviting men into responsibility through an “everyone versus perpetrators” approach — and reframing what it means to be “a good man” as the default, not the exception.

If you care about gender equity, culture change, leadership, and creating safer public spaces for everyone — this one will stay with you.

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 ✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to SheLeads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Lee's Collective Podcast. What if women's safety stopped being framed as something women have to manage and started being treated as a societal responsibility that we all share? For far too long, the dominant narrative has focused on what women should do differently to stay safe. But what if the real work lies in challenging the system, the cultures and behaviours that make public spaces unsafe in the first place? Well, my guest today is someone who is doing exactly that. Amy Watson is a social impact entrepreneur and the founder of Hassel is spelt H A S L, a global movement and social enterprise tackling harassment and violence against women at the roots of all this, which, from my perspective, is by far the most effective way to create sustainable change. Amy founded Hassel to challenge the long-standing belief that the responsibility for women's safety stands with women themselves. Instead, Hassel's mission is to shift that responsibility onto society as a whole by addressing the systemic and cultural drivers of harassment and violence, particularly male violence, through practical tools, education, training, technology, and strategic partnerships. A core pillar of Hassel's work is inviting men to be part of the solution, promoting an everyone versus perpetrators approach to tackling violence collectively and systemically. Founded in October 2024 and initially self-funded, Hassel has grown at an extraordinary pace, building a global community of over half a million followers, mobilising more than 3,000 volunteers worldwide, which is absolutely phenomenal when I'm reading this. Collecting 8,500 surveys and delivering awareness campaigns that have reached over 10 million people organically. Today we are going to explore what it takes to take response to shift responsibility. Today we're going to explore what it really takes to shift responsibility at a societal level and why incremental change simply isn't enough. Amy, thank you so much for giving up your time and joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Oh, I'm really excited to have you as well. And I think, you know, judging, I mean, I've been following you for some time on social media, on Instagram particularly, and you share some really powerful posts. So my hope is that this is going to be a very powerful conversation. So let's start then, and I'm going to probably ask you two questions to kick off with, which is when we talk about women's safety, why do we think the responsibility has historically been placed on women rather than society? And why is that such a dangerous starting point?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Society, obviously, we're we're living within patriarchal systems and patriarchal norms, and for so long the responsibility has been put on women, as you say. And this has always stemmed from, you know, a culture where male violence is excused and the violence against women is supposedly brought upon oneself. And it's because men have obviously historically held positions of power, positions of influence, we have not had women in those positions or making those decisions, and it has affected the whole narrative around it. Also, because it's disproportionately affecting women, we are talking about women's lived experiences, um, and we're not having women in the room to talk about those things, and so the problem continues in a way that many social issues do, where the responsibility is not put on you know the perpetrators or tackling the root causes, it is just plastering over the problem. And as I say, that's not that's not just a women's safety issue, that's a societal issue for many topics, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

There's lots of other issues related to that, and you know, I get the whole thing about papering over with such a quick quick fix society. I mean, that feeds into it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah, and I think you know, obviously it differs from country to country, but in terms of political gain and things like that, uh uh unfortunately the way political systems are designed are largely require, even with the best will in the world, some level of point scoring and quick fixes in order to win votes and uh you know uphold power and all that kind of stuff. And so this is why I wanted to, you know, people kind of often ask me, why don't you go into politics or why don't you do do this through a like a political route? And whilst I think politics is super important and you know it's very um yeah uh of a huge interest to me, um, I feel like it's not designed in a way to create long-term systemic change. Um, and this is the problem that we constantly face is you know, we're constantly changing who is in power, what topics are prioritized, what strategies we're using. We burn up, you know, we do work time and time again that then gets torn apart within the next group that holds power, and things take forever to change. And that's why I kind of think it needs some external body that can work alongside, you know, political parties and also organizations and um all different kinds of you know, brands, government bodies, etc., but that is external and not dependent based on who is in power for those few years and then it it moves on. So yeah, that's kind of whilst I think politics and is is super important, and I think it's really important to be politically engaged and aware and and vote and all that kind of stuff. I don't think it's set up in the right way to create the change that we really need for a lot of societal issues.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

What I'm hearing is it's such an important issue, it's apolitical actually, and it's it's so fundamental to our society and it's being a really effective community in society that we need to keep the politics out of it, really. And that's I hear that's what you're you're endeavouring to do. So let's talk about you a bit more and your own motivation and what's brought you to creating hassle and being, you know, very driven actually in the approach that you're taking and very in some ways confronting, which I think is excellent. It can be a bit shocking at times, but it's excellent that you're actually telling the truth on many, many things that often we keep quiet about. So you are incredibly driven, you've got a very clear purpose. What is it from your own experience and your and the own and the stories that you've heard that made you realise this wasn't just an issue that you cared about, but one that you were actually wanted to take action on?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, I think um, as you know, we discussed before, I have always kind of felt this deep, I guess, justice sensitivity, I think is the general term for it. And you know, not just when it comes to women's safety, which is is something that I've experienced personally, but to many issues that I haven't, you know, I've been fortunate enough fortunate enough not to experience personally because of my privilege. And you know, I I was I was raised um with parents who kind of could give me, you know, uh anything that I needed really, and um I'm white and I'm straight, and apart from being a woman, I'm you know, I'm very privileged in that in most ways. And I always felt kind of even from being really young, I guess some form of guilt, and um, you know, I did I did nothing to deserve the life that I've got to lead. Um and I'm not saying it's some extraordinary life or anything, but even just you know, to be safe, to have people that care about me, like a lot of that is taken for granted. And um, yeah, I don't I don't believe that I I believe life is a lottery and you get you do nothing really to deserve what life you're born into, and I'm lucky enough to be born into the life that I have, so I don't ever want to waste that privilege and I want to speak for those who who weren't so lucky as as me, like what what a waste to not do something with it. So I think I've always felt like that. And as I say, about all social issues, um, homelessness is a really big one for me. Um, but you know, in general, just every every form of social injustice um keeps me up at night. Um, but yeah, and I think I I always knew that I wanted to do something like this, and I studied entrepreneurship at university and then kind of came across the whole concept of social enterprise, and that's when I was like, this is sort of my passion and what I'm good at brought together. Um yeah, and then I think it was just from I was working in um I planned to kind of work in startups. Um yeah, after after COVID happened, that that was kind of my plan because initially I'd wanted to run my own thing and then it didn't feel like a good choice. Um and yeah, I think almost the issue kind of put itself in front of me, like having experienced it a lot myself, especially after moving to London, um, but also from growing up as basically every woman does, um, you know, from basically being in school uniform and having experiences all through teenage years and my twenties and things, and yeah, and then just as I as I say, being in working in startups and meeting so many other women and coming into work and having these discussions or going to meetings with other women, and it just almost came up as a topic so often, and it was so normalized the way we spoke about it, and you know, people saying, Oh, I just came, just got followed on the way here, and the way that we laugh it off and normalize it, and it's a coping mechanism, you know. Um, but I think it just started to like take register in my brain, and and I always say, kind of for me, the tipping point was when I was managing a team and and seeing people within the team coming into work, talking about these experiences, us all talking about them, and feeling that sense of responsibility that they're just then expected to carry on with their day, like it's not just me anymore. Um, so yeah, I think that was the thing that kind of tipped me over the edge. There's you know, as I say, there's a lot of different experiences, and also heard of a lot of experiences and talked about it so often, and it kind of made so much sense to me that that was the thing that I at least I know.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Well, I think what I'm struck by is, you know, obviously between you and I, there's a big age difference. And generationally, you know, and my when I grew up, it was kind of absolutely just laughed off or accepted that this was the norm that you as a a girl growing up had to learn to navigate around and put up with in inverted commas.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

And what I really, really admire about what you're doing is you are not putting up and you are supporting your generation and and women as a whole, because you're putting the the conversation out there to not put up with because it is unacceptable that the things that uh most women, I I don't think I'm like you, I don't think I know anyone who's not experienced some sort of even if it's subtle violence and sexual interference, it's still there. So um let's come back to asking you questions about Hassel though. When you decided to found it, what were you most determined not to replicate from existing approaches that you've seen out there?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Um, for me, like when I looked into what was out there, it was just safety tool after safety app, self-defense classes. Um, and whilst I think a lot of them are well-intentioned, and I don't think they're without their benefits, they're just continuously putting more and more burden, mental load, financial responsibility on women. And we're we already carry so much more from our general trying to stay safe and all the tips that we get given, and you know, all the things that we're taught to do in case or or we'll be blamed if something happens. And it was just like, how do we keep adding more and more things to women's plates? And it never actually solves the problem. Like right now, we've got an epidemic in in the UK and in a lot of countries of of male violence against women, and it's not it all clearly all these safety tips and they're not solving the problem. They might make women in the moment maybe feel a bit safer, and you know, as I say, I'm not I'm not saying they're without any benefit, but I was determined that this was not about giving women anything else to do, and if anything, it was about removing as much of that burden as possible and placing it onto the rest of society or making sure it's more evenly distributed, placing it on organisations and men and everyone else, um, rather than on women themselves.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yes, very good. And so what I get is you are really explicit about addressing the root causes. And I have to say, I think the reason I'm attracted towards what you do is that I concur completely. I mean, yeah, you can make quick fix changes, but they're very likely not to be sustainable. You have to address the root if you want to get to real sustainable change. Yeah. So you're addressing root causes, including systemic misogyny and male violence. Why is it so important to you to name those drivers directly rather than soften your language?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Again, I think for so long we, you know, we treat this problem as if it's inevitable. And we do this with quite a lot of social issues as well. I see this a lot with like homelessness. We treat it as it's it just has to exist in this world that we live in. Whereas there's much evidence to say that in fact it doesn't have to exist or not at some widespread scale, it, you know, and that's the thing for me is firstly changing the language around it because as I say so often people are like, this is just the way it is, or you know, like you were saying, just put up with it. And in fact, it doesn't have to be this is just the way it is. We talk about that a with a lot of other things, and then we change it. I always use you know, kind of smaller scale things, but like banning smoking or wearing seat belts in cars, and people, you know, would often say, Oh, this is a you know, a uh what's the word, like encroaching on my human rights and all this kind of stuff, and then we change it, and then everyone forgets and everyone's everyone adapts. Like humans adapt so quickly, and we yeah, and we forget about this. We, you know, these things just because these things have always happened doesn't mean they always have to happen. Otherwise, we'd never have any change historically. We could have said the same things about slavery and things like I mean, unfortunately, slavery does still exist in this world, but in its same form and things like that, you know, there's there's so many things that any kind of rights that people that marginalized groups have gained over time, we could have just said, well, that's the way it is, and not progressed anything. So I think it's quite a poor argument. And and firstly, this is why, because we don't address the gendered nature of the problem, it stems from male violence is the root, male violence is the root cause, right? There is other things that we talk about, like um poor public space design, or um, as we say, systemic sexism misogyny, which isn't just male violence, women and other genders also you know enable that behaviour or victim blame and things like that. But largely it comes down when it's the actual act, it comes down to male violence. Um even violence against men is disproportionately by far committed by men. So it's in everyone's interest to tackle male violence, not just for women, but for everyone. Um, and until we name the problem, we can't actually actively solve it because we're not looking at the right things. If we, you know, we the whole problem is the gendered expectations of men, the way that, you know, by the patriarchy still, like men are expected to suppress emotion, or anger isn't counted as an emotion when in fact it is an emotion and very heavily um, you know, very heavily, I guess, not used, um, but men are the ones who express anger far in a far greater kind of amount and stuff. And it is just like if we don't name these issues, we're not again, we're not tackling, we're just plastering over them, we're just putting more and more responsibility on the city.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Well, I think it helps. I think what's really important is it helps us see things, and by naming something, once you've named it and given some clarity around it, it's very difficult to unsee it and definitely very difficult to forget it. So I think that's why it's so important. So we've talked about male violence being at the root of this, both male being men being violent to other men as well as being violent to women. But what I really love about your approach is it's not about blaming men, because one of the core pillars, and again, this is what attracted me to Hassel, one of your core pillars is about actively inviting men to work with you and to join in the conversation. So this becomes, you know, let's work all together to fix this situation rather than trying to point the finger at anybody. Why is that framing so important? And how does it change the conversation?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah, I mean, I'll I'll preface by saying that a lot of people disagree with this approach, and from both angles, we have people that say we're too man-hatery, and we have people that say we're coddle, we coddle men too much. And I appreciate where both of these sentiments come from, and I also understand I completely understand it, and I also used to be a lot more, I would say aggressive in my approach of speaking to people that I didn't share the same opinions as. Obviously, like I in an ideal world, you know, women will women will come and say, We should we shouldn't be doing this because women shouldn't have to do this. And I'm like, I agree, we shouldn't have to. I don't want this to be the way that it has to be. But unfortunately, firstly, historically, it it takes the Oppressed group to rise up first before those who belong to the oppressive group join in. That is historically how we gain rights. Um, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Well it reminds me of Michelle Obama actually. When they go low, we go high.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, and and also it is that thing of you know, you either create a path of less resistance to welcome people in, or you put up a big this is wrong, you are wrong, you cannot be changed, and you push them con to continue down that toxic path.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

You end up with more extremes, don't you? If you go into the I'm right, you're wrong. Yes. There's got to be a coming together to solve such a complex problem.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And I don't believe that women should have to teach men. I'm just choosing as a woman to do that. I'm not in any way encouraging other women, like that's why I'm trying to create a space for men to take initiative and do it themselves. And while we're building resources for men to self-educate and all this kind of stuff, we're not going here, women, here the tools to give to men. Like that's not the approach. Um, and also like we've, you know, we I always say like we work on this scale where everyone sits on a scale from perpetrator to advocate and everywhere in between. And women tend to sit further up that scale, but everyone to an extent sits somewhere along it. And when we first started with like socials and stuff, I was like, firstly, I'm targeting the women that I know are going to be our ad advocates that are going to spread this message, and over time we're gonna move further and further down that scale, which is what we've we're doing now. Is for those who have followed us from the beginning, we'll see like our content now has shifted a lot more into welcoming and educating men, and then over time we're we're bringing more and more of that in in a way that doesn't dismiss women's experiences and you know makes their feelings valid, but brings more and more men into the conversation because you have to do it gradually and you have to.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

That's another thing I love about your approach is you've got some really clear stages of how you are how you are affecting this change, and actually just looking at your website, it's a great example of how to make change happen through different stages, which I really, really like. So I'd recommend every everyone go and have a look at that. So coming back to men, what does meaningful allyship from men look like for you in practice?

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I think it's important that this stuff shows up everywhere, so it's not just within your own family, within your own circles, but also in the workplace, in public spaces, in terms of within society, like utilising your voting power and all this kind of stuff. So there's stuff that you can do within every kind of space and group. Um, and I think you know, in the beginning, it's definitely about self-educating as much as you can, whether it's following organizations, whether it's reading, like getting, you know, following people that talk about this stuff, but then it is about opening up conversations, being a safe space within your groups, you know, be mindful of the language you use, making sure, you know, I often say like you can talk about someone, a story in the news or a celebrity and feel like it's such a harmless comment that you're making. But if you make a comment that is victim-blaming or dismissive, it can tell a woman, especially a woman that thinks she can trust you that actually she can't trust you, and that there's so many very small things. Like, I think again, people you know, we and we get men in the comments saying, you know, I'm not changing what I do just for women. Like, how is that fair? And firstly, it's it's very small things a lot of the time, it's not having to, you know, start your own organization or anything, it's it's very much like just shifting the language you use slightly, or if you hear someone saying something about a woman, just flip it around and ask them, would you say the same thing if it was a man in that situation? Would we have the same judgment? It's it's having that self-awareness, self-reflecting, because it's so built into us. And I don't think it's um, you know, I don't think you're the worst person in the world for thinking that way, because most people do, and that's how we've been conditioned to think. But it's about trying to unlearn it, trying to be a safe space for people around you, trying to be more mindful of women's experiences, um, you know, very little things that we talk about in terms of in public spaces, not just intervention, but even day-to-day, like being mindful of how your presence affects other people. If you need to go and ask for directions, don't go and ask a woman who's by herself in the dark. Go into a shop or ask a group of people, or you know, because that woman, even with you've got the best intentions in the world, if if a man is beelining for you in the street in the dark when you're on your own, your unfortunately immediate thought is what's about to happen next. And it's it's got no reflection on that man, you know, but it's just being more aware of how your presence, regardless of your intentions or you might be the best person in the world.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Small, simple things can be a real difference. Exactly. That's what I'm hearing. I also hear as well, it's about creating a better society. Yeah, it's not about having a go at men, it's about because men will benefit if society is better, it's gonna better every uh benefit everybody, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah, absolutely. Like it's you know, it's not sometimes you have to use the, you know, if you've got a woman that you care about in your life and that kind of thing, but that's you know, further down the scale typically. And yeah, most people it's just about you know basic human empathy, it's about, like you said, improving the world for everyone, improving the world for people around you. If we unlock unlearn harmful norms that the patriarchy taught us, that also benefits men in terms of like mental health and expectations and not putting as much pressure on yourself to be your provider, protector, all these kind of things. So, yeah, it literally does benefit everyone, and and that's kind of why we're trying to change the narrative, you know, around not only around like men versus women and this kind of thing, but also we don't really talk about the term allyship because I don't really like it, and not in a way that we we use it sometimes um because people know what it means, but I think What would you use? What would you use instead? Well, we talk about being a man and we go, being a man is this. So it's about reframing what it means to be a man rather than not that I disagree with the term allyship, but more the fact that I think it starts to position men who care as the other or as the not as the default, and I think the default should be basic human empathy and it should be men or misogynists, men or sexists, in the same way that I think it should be humans or homophobes, not LGBTQIA plus allies. Like that the default should be people who care and are well because also I think it starts to make the conversation more difficult for men who aren't quite there yet because it feels like they're having to step into something else. It feels like they're having to become part of an outside group rather than caring about others and being an ally being the default, if that makes sense. So we try and whenever we can, you know, sometimes we do talk about allies because people understand that phrase, but wherever we can, we talk about like being a man is and try to start changing that narrative around, you know, what it actually means to be a man, what strength actually doesn't mean physical strength, but it means strength in character and standing up for what's right and you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's as I say, it's not to say the term is redundant or that it's not important, but I think a lot of the time it kind of gives people an excuse not to be an ally because it's it's the other, it's being part of a different group. If you start to say you're a man or you're a misogynist or you're a sexist, it starts to bring more shame upon not being an ally. Do you know what I mean? So that's kind of how we're trying to rewrite it.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yes, yes. I I I'm I'm really getting a sense of the languaging is so so important, and yet it is tricky to think about, you know, how can we make sure this is inclusive and not othering, yeah, but also, you know, and avoiding that labelling.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Um yeah, I mean, I think it's just, you know, it again, it's with all of these topics, and we have to use terms to an extent because that's what things that's how people identify what things mean. But also we if we start saying that allies for any group are the other and not the default, it starts to make it feel like it's an extra challenge rather than it's just you know the basic norm. And we we start to reframe what it means to be a human being, not just what it means to be a man. Um, and that's really important, I think, when we're trying to change our society.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Okay. So, you know, what I notice about your posts and about what you stand for is you are very direct and very can I'd say I'm using the word confronting, which sounds like a strong word, but it I think it's important because it there are times I've seen your posts, it's made me look twice. So that's effective because it actually it almost shocks me to and makes me stand up and think, which I think is important and it can bring up resistance as well. So I'm interested and curious about the sorts of resistance you might encounter, but also how you stay so clear and grounded in your message.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

I think one of the reasons I started doing those kind of, as you say, kind of confronting statements in the first place was I often found, and again, I don't want to ever sound dismissive of other people's work, but I often found like with a lot of charities and stuff, there's a lot of statistics and long explanations about why something isn't right. And it didn't it didn't cut through in the same way that I felt like if we just wait made one statement at a time that made people just look and rethink and that wasn't too complex to understand, or perhaps you know, if it was more of an entry point rather than you're deep into this, that we could bring more people in, and it's been really effective. And I think that again is how we should be kind of starting to talk about other issues because I think too often we use statistics, we don't humanize it, we don't put it into day-to-day life, we don't make it relatable, and like that's what we kind of need to start doing more with social issues because otherwise people just distance themselves from it and they don't think it affects them, and they don't, you know, they don't realize their own bias and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

So well, I think we also end up drowning in detail. Yeah, absolutely. When you the alternative is that we get all the facts, all the data, all the long explanations, but then it's like I'm not sure where this leaves me. Whereas I think, although it can be confronting, it does make you think. Yeah, and you know, I've reflected on, oh gosh, when might I have done that? Or who do I know that also does that? And that that's and it does make you think about your own behaviour and what you're observing around you as well. So it is very powerful from that, but also the risk is that people will resist it. So some people go, oh well, that's not me, or who does she think she is saying that? I think it can it can evoke um a reactionary response, yeah, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

I think we're firstly we are like super careful with what we how we phrase things because obviously, yes, one statement out of context can be misunderstood or misread or whatever, and I think most of the time we've got it right, like there's been odd times where we've probably used the wrong word and it's not come across in the way that but we do like so much testing and trial and error and all this kind of stuff before we pose things, like we're so careful with the exact wording that we use for everything, and you know what part of the volunt one of many things that our volunteers do is come back to us and be like, no, this reads this way, or this would be my pushback on this phrase, or whatever it is, and and keep swapping out those words until we get it perfect or as perfect as it can be. Um, I think the confronting thing again is important, and I think I talk about it because again, I'm coming from a place of privilege, not everyone can stand up and confront things in that way, it's not safe for them to do so. It's not, they don't, you know, I'm lucky my family have very similar opinions to me about things. I don't have to go home at Christmas and sit and have you know have them awful arguments and things like that. Whereas a lot of people don't have that, and so I also have privilege where I can be more confronting about it, if that makes sense, which I think is important. So it kind of sounds like having that privilege gives you more courage. Absolutely. I think privilege gives you so much of it gives you safety net, it gives you confidence, it gives you a lot of non-tangible things. You know, people think about money or I don't know, security in terms of housing and things like that. But yeah, I think you know, not gonna hold other things, but you know, I think that's a massive thing when it comes to private education. Not that I had that, but private education, things like that, it gives you this, and again, men to do that. A different foundation, yeah, that's what I'm hearing. You have as well, you yeah, and you have room to be confident, you have more room to take risk because you don't have the same consequences if things fail. Um, sorry, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

But um so speaking about your confidence, speaking about your confidence, then I want to just pay a little bit of attention to how you've built Hassel because you've but it's become a movement and it's be it's kind of grown as a movement at great speed. I mean, 2024, you know, we're only just into 2026, so not even two years old. Um, and you started self-funded, it's become a global global movement. You've got you know, you're touching and reaching millions. Why do you think it's resonated so strongly? And and tell us more about how you've grown it so quickly.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Um I think as I say, I think I am in like a relatively unique position in terms of one privilege, but also I think the combination of an entrepreneurial background, but having this passion for social issues, it doesn't tend to go that hand in hand from my experience. Um, also being younger, being a younger woman, again, a lot less there's a much much fewer young women who are gonna take this kind of thing on. And so I think all those factors firstly help in in this kind of situation. I think it's so much easier to talk about you know your lived experience and that kind of thing because you can create stuff that's so relatable and you can talk about it in a way that other people can't if it's not their lived experience. So I think that's part of it. As I say, I think having that entrepreneurial background, but always having that purpose as my priority.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Because my next question is what have you learnt about mobilization, community, and momentum that you didn't necessarily expect?

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I never thought, I mean, I the ambassador program, so our volunteer program was like within stage three, but I just thought that was going to be way down the line. And literally, I think maybe three, three months after I started, I had so many people messaging me, being like, I want to help with this. How do I volunteer? How do I do something? Like, I believe in what you're doing so much. And I was like, no way at the stage yet for volunteers, but I ended up fast tracking it, finding a platform, building out the volunteer stuff, and allowing people to start signing up, and then you know, over this year has basically been trying to alongside everything else start building out the volunteer platform as people join it. So it I would say it's still very much in its infancy, but I didn't appreciate how much that community would help. Um, you know, as I say, I kind of started that, you know, I always thought oh, at some point down the line we'd have, you know, a voluntary program and things like that, but I never thought it would be so soon, and I never realized the the the I guess beauty of having so many people around you that believe in the same thing, and not just when it comes to women's safety, but generally like share your values and your ethics, and you know, like I think what it says to me, Amy, is you have hit on something that resonates so strongly with men and with women, and uh people want to be part of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

There's it just uh illustrates uh the huge need that there is in society to even things up and to create a safer society for everybody. So, you know, keep keep on with it, it's fantastic. And so I want to therefore ask Um, if society genuinely accepted responsibility for women's safety, what would change? What would be different?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

I think women can never have equality without us really tackling this issue. So I think if we want to ever achieve any form of gender equality, we have to redirect this burden of safety. Um obviously it it affects everything. It affects our financial load, mental load, it affects the way that relationships happen. Like we're talking about this male loneliness epidemic. A lot of women are staying away from relationships because of fear of safety, because of lived experiences. Like it literally affects every single part of society, the way that we raise children, whether we have children, like there is so many elements, you know, careers, like people's careers are so negatively affected by their fear around safety, not taking opportunities because they don't want to stay late, or missing meetings, or feeling like they're being taken advantage of, being told that they're, you know, slept their way to the top, or whatever it is, like there's so it affects everything. And the more that we can redirect the responsibility, not only impacts, you know, firstly women on a personal level in terms of mental load, financial load, physical load day to day, but how we progress over generations and also for everyone else, like it literally impacts everyone else. It reduces if we reduce this violence rate, it reduces the violence for everyone because men perpetrate the vast majority of violence against everyone around the world. Um, you know, and as I say, we we start to actually have a chance at moving towards gender equality. Obviously, there's so many other elements, but women's safety plays into gender equality a lot more than it's often recognised. We often talk about violence against women as this isolated part of gender equality, whereas actually it feeds in to so much of it.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Um absolutely it's it's a it's a it's one of the foundation stones for equality, really, isn't it? That whole safety piece.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

So for listeners who care deeply about this issue but feel unsure about where they fit, especially the men that may be listening. Yeah, and they may be, you know, I mean men I speak to often they want to be supportive but they worry about getting it wrong or feeling like they can't get it right. What is your invitation to them?

SPEAKER_00 40:00

So we have so many different ways that people can get involved. Um, men, especially, we have Hassel Men, which you can search for, it's on the website, and is essentially where you can sign up to be part of Hassel. We have monthly focus groups where you can talk about things, we can you can ask anything, it's just men or just those who identify as men apart from me. Um, and we have all different ways where they can contribute and get involved. At the moment, a lot of our men are testing resources. Um, and the next thing that we're launching is free online education resources. So there's courses, activities, um, prompt, conversation prompts, all different things. So that's well, that should be out by the time this goes live. Um, but yeah, so that's one way that you can start actually taking matters in your own into your own hands, either signing up to be part of Hassel, contributing any skills that you have. And if you don't have skills, you can even just join the monthly calls and things like that. Um, but there's ways for everyone to get involved. Um, as I say, these resources um for people more generally, we have the workplace training where organizations can book for us to come in, deliver training on internalized misogyny, uh, unlearning, harmful norms, by stem intervention, all that kind of stuff. Um, we have you can simply follow us on socials. We put out a lot of educational content on there that helps learn and yeah, sort of try start to rewrite narratives. Um, we have our volunteer program in general, which is open to anyone, no matter how you identify, and anyone across the world. Um, so it doesn't matter where you are, it's free, there's no time commitment, and there is something for literally everyone. It doesn't matter if you think you have nothing to contribute, if you if you are living and breathing, there is something that you can do to help. So um, yeah, and then we also have like small things like on the website, we have um an online survey that is that shapes kind of all our initiatives and makes sure they are as inclusive and representative as possible. We also have merch and crowdfunders, so if you can just then you can do that. And our merch is also designed to be unisex, neutral, like very carefully considered to make sure men can also shop and support. And we I think we have actually had more men purchase than women from what I can deduct as much as I can deduct from from names and things, which is amazing. So, yeah, it's kind of it's definitely working in the way that we wanted it to. Um, but yeah, so there's literally, I mean, there's a tab on the website called Get Involved, so there's literally so many ways that you can so people can connect that way and contribute that way.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Amy, thank you so much for being here today. It has been absolutely delightful to talk to you and to invite us all to think about how we can get more involved in making the world a safer place for men, women, everybody. So thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.