She Leads Collective Podcast: stories, allyship and confidence tools for women

S2 Ep2: Leading At The Top As A Woman with Penny De Valk

• Mary Gregory • Season 2 • Episode 2

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Why are so many talented women still walking out of organisations — despite decades of investment in leadership development, diversity initiatives and good intent?

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Mary Gregory is joined by Penny De Valk — former MD, CEO and Board Director, and now a global leadership development expert working across the UK, New Zealand and the US. Penny shares her leadership journey and the lived reality of leading at the highest levels: the responsibility, the complexity, and the constant need to balance “taking care” with “taking charge”.

Together, Mary and Penny explore how gender and power still show up in subtle but persistent ways — from assumptions about competence to the double binds women face when exercising authority. Penny also shares practical wisdom on learning leadership through experience, building self-awareness, and choosing courage over waiting for confidence.

This episode ends by zooming out to the current global climate and the growing pushback on DEI — setting the scene for Part 2, where Mary and Penny dig into the trends behind women leaving workplaces and what leaders can do about it.

Connect with Penny on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pennydevalk/

Or visit her website: https://pennydevalk.com/


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✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to episode two of season two of the She Lee's Collective Podcast. So let's just think about the question that we're considering today, and that is why are so many talented women still walking out? And despite decades of investment in leadership development, diversity initiatives, and good intention, women are still leaving the workplace. I'm so pleased to have Penny DeVork here today as my guest. Penny is a deeply experienced senior leader, leadership development expert, and someone I've had the privilege of working with personally. Penny was my own managing director when I worked at Pennettan Practice, and she is one of the most grounded and credible leadership role models I know. Penny has led at the very top as a managing director, CEO, and board director, and now runs a global leadership development business working across the UK, New Zealand, and the US. With such a rich career and working in similar fields, I thought this was a great way to kick off season two. So Penny is joining me today as guest for two episodes. In this episode, we focus on Penny's leadership journey, what it really takes to lead at the highest levels, how gender and power show up along the way, and how those experiences shape the way she now supports leaders and organisations. And then in our next episode, exploring in more depth the elements that are resulting in women leaving the corporate workplace, resulting in a real loss of talent. And we'll also be referring to the McKinsey Woman in the Workplace report that came out at the end of 2025. But for the time being, let's focus on Penny and find out more about her amazing career and what an incredible inspiration she is to many, many women as a role model. Penny, so nice to have you here today. Mary, thank you for such a generous welcome. Well, it's very easy to be generous when you're around because I think you're also very generous with your time and your sharing, because I know you do a lot of support and are a great advocate for women at work and helping women rise within the workplace. So to start off with, um, I'm really curious about going right, right back your very early career, or even maybe even beyond that, in terms of what your motivation was like and how you got started.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, that's uh that is big. Well, I think my motivation was fundamentally I wanted I wanted a career. I was very aware of that when I was at uh was at school, even. Uh, and I think my motivation was I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to make things happen. And so I and I didn't necessarily want a conventional life or a conventional career. So I never had really leadership, but to be honest, at school, we really didn't have leadership sort of presented to us. Um, so that was that was a fairly evolving, and I sort of fell into leadership roles. My first um job after my first degree was as a probation officer. And I learned, you know, that's where you learn about authority and power as a you know, white middle class chick 21 years old, you know, having to demonstrate that. So that was really interesting. Um, so I think that the probably the motivations were less about money, but wanting to have a career, wanting to make a difference. And then something about being motivated to my mantra very early on was say yes, panic later. Oh, right. Okay. And gulping and doing that, and then gulping even more when I got it and being able to do it.

SPEAKER_01:

But you had people supporting you for the sounds of it, in that they they they offered you opportunities.

SPEAKER_00:

Always, and all men, you know, always my and they just saw you in action and they wanted you to be on their team because they knew what you could do, um, and uh, you know, were very uh encouraging um and then supportive. I mean, they were often very clumsy in their support because they were giving me advice that didn't really help me as a young woman, but their intent was good.

SPEAKER_01:

So what I hear is that that you had men who supported you, gave you opportunities. Did you experience any negative biases because you're a woman in those workplaces?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I guess some of it was uh just subtle. Um, people on their own autopilots who sort of, you know, the classic that still has to happen. I needed to be, you know, smarter. My expertise, you know, I had to over-prepare for meetings, make sure no one sort of defaults to you being competent when you're a woman, when you're around the table. So I had to sort of do more demonstrating of that, but that was um nothing overt, you know, no one sort of pinching one another's bottoms or any of that. I mean, there was some it was just subtle in terms of people not seeing you as a leader. I remember in my first um month, I think I was a general manager of the Institute of Management, uh, and uh at open door, the first woman, and had a lot of pushback from the fellows of this institute, this girl telling us how to run our institute. And again, you know, I was on the board, I had, you know, I'd got there, the chairman observed me. I had some, you know, strong views about what was possible and the implications if we didn't move. And so again, he was someone who said, Do you want to put your money where your mouth is? Apply for the general manager role. It was like big breath, and then, you know, robust processes, never got anything on the back of anything other than my competence and um my willingness to, you know, really try and make a difference in every organization. I think that's been a theme, Mary. I'm not a status quo gal, I'm a startup or turnaround person. That's where I get my energy from, being able to make that difference. And so one of the ones in the first month I was um that you know, had opened doors, so any of the fellows could come and meet with me, anyone could, any of the members. So really tried to um make sure there were no barriers to conversations, because uh, you know, I knew that a lot of them were quite taken aback with my appointment and didn't really get it or see it as appropriate. Um, and so I was must have been walking back from the bathroom. I had a meeting with one of them, and it was he was, you know, he was sitting in reception and he said, Oh, excuse me, dear, I'm I'm meeting with the general manager. Do you mind getting me a cup of tea? That sounds so classic. So classic. It's like this can't still be happening. But his autopilot, and um, but you know, I said, Of course. So you good grace always has to come first. So went and made him a cup of tea and said, Let's have ours in our office. Well, you could let's have it in my office, and you could just see his face. Yeah, suddenly he it dawned on him. He never stopped apologizing. Yeah, that it was just an example of he was on his autopilot, you know. Uh, there was a woman walking past, she was probably the secretary, and probably could get him a cup of tea.

SPEAKER_01:

He was nice about it, but it was the And you ended up CEO of the ILM, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, in uh I was uh yeah, the chief executive of the Institute of Leadership and Management in the UK.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I did uh six years there as well. So I've sort of done, and then I've been in publicly listed, I've been in American uh publicly listed organizations, and I've been in, you know, AIM listed, as we know, and publicly listed organizations here. So I've been in both the not-for-profit and the very for-profit, and that's always made me interested in leadership because I actually think we have the same toolkit.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and I so I immediately want to know what did you learn from working in those sort of organizations, quite different, but I bet there were some similarities as well.

SPEAKER_00:

They were all professional service organizations, so there's an element of that. Um, I do think that in the not-for-profit sector, the quality of our leadership is almost more important, Mary, even though that's not how people perceive it, because we have to be even better stewards of our resources and our money, you know, whether you're a charity or whatever. So um, but actually, in terms of leadership, it's exactly the same. I bought the same toolkit to work. I was needing to be much more aware of the environment. And in terms of managing the tension between our mission and our commercial imperative, really important to be able to manage that paradox. And, you know, I had been trained in paradox mastery from a very, you know, early age in my career because I knew that I needed to get skillful at managing that whole needing to take care as well as take charge.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that balance, take care and take charge. Now, leadership is not for uh not for sissies, is it? You know, it's like it is challenging. And I I should imagine there are times, and I know I know from my own experience of working with you, you've had to navigate some pretty tricky terrain. So, what are the things that have kept you going through those difficult times?

SPEAKER_00:

It is, you know, it's a messy leadership, it's hard, it's never neat and packaged, and who knew? Uh, of course, because it's uh it's a difficult job, it's an important job. The things that, and so pretty much every day you're sort of dealing with some level of complexity or conflict. The thing that I think kept me going through all of that is again going back to what am I here to do? You know, my why is my North Star always? Why am I doing this? What am I here to do? Am I doing the best I can broadly, not just from a technical uh component, but as a human being.

SPEAKER_01:

So returning to your bigger picture, actually.

SPEAKER_00:

Always, yeah. My why has always been able to stabilize me when I've been in very stabilizing times. And all of the other things we know work so well for us, um, is the people in our lives, how we look after ourselves physically and mentally, all of that ballast that we need to pay attention to all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, always really good, strong personal foundation. Yes, yes, very good. And what do you think, you know, having been a leader at such senior levels, there are there are lots of things that we fantasize or imagine, is what goes on at that senior level. What is the reality like versus what we imagine it to be like?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's hard to know what um there's often a lot of mythology out there. And we do, you know, that's part of our challenge with leadership, is we romanticize it. And I understand why, because ultimately we would all secretly love someone to come over the hill on their white charger and make everything okay. And we know that's such an old, unhelpful model of leadership, but we default to that still, especially in times of crisis and chaos. Um, uh so it's um can be tiring, really exhausting. So it's a bit of a marathon. I think there's a myth out there that um, and as you say, it's not for sissies, but there's a myth out there that it's um horrible, and that's a real pity. Uh, because you get to choose, some of them are, some ecosystems are horrible. You just withdraw from those. And I've only ever, you know, really had one that I've chosen to to withdraw from. Um, people are good, mostly.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that I'd love to emphasize that because I think there's so much focus on how rotten people are, but actually, on the whole, people are really wonderful, and the kindness of strangers, the willingness and support that goes on within organizations.

SPEAKER_00:

Really, and I think that's really helpful to always assume good intent. It's really served me well. It doesn't make me Polly Anna because I've got a really good radar for when I see that not coming. Um, there's mythology out there that that people are naturals, that people are natural leaders. And I think that's a a real pity because I don't believe there's any such thing. There's no such thing, and I'd really like most women, especially young women, to get rid of that notion. Um, I don't think people are naturals, or if you are going to learn to be a leader, you can learn it from a book. And that too is a real myth that will have people stumbling all over the place.

SPEAKER_01:

How do you think you do learn to be a leader then?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, there are books, you know, there are um, you know, there is a technical expertise that you need to be aware of. You need to know your finance, you need to have good strategy frameworks. But in terms of being a leader that's that people want to follow, it's self-awareness, insight, all of the stuff that you know makes us better human beings will make us a better leader. Am I paying attention to the right things? Am I actually here with these people at the moment? Am I listening? All of the all of that stuff. Uh, while we've got this whole body of knowledge, absolutely, that we need to be aware of. While we're practicing our up 5,000 feet, down a hundred feet. Am I walking the floor? Am I able to talk to the board? So there's that comes, that's a muscle. And some of us are more comfortable in different areas. Um, getting kind of comfortable with that level of discomfort, never feeling that you know you're ever the smartest gal in the room, and constantly turning on that beginner's mind. I don't really know this environment, I'm not sure I know this group, and not have it as sort of like a moral failing. It's not a I'm the problem. It's just like I'm learning.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you're on a it definitely is a journey, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

And if you're into learning and you can keep that open, I think that will serve you really well.

SPEAKER_01:

I what I'm picking up from what you're saying, it's having tremendous faith in yourself, though, because you can be in those, you know, I get a sense of you're never gonna know it all, you're never gonna have it all sorted because there's always gonna be something else emerging uh to challenge you. You have to keep enormous agility to be able to, you know, walk the floor one minute and then next minute be in the boardroom or whatever. Um, but what's constant throughout that is this kind of sense of okayness with yourself, and it doesn't have to be sort of evangelical self-belief, but it's just like in amongst all of this, I am okay. I'm doing my best.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm doing my best. I'm not going to. I did learn fairly early on to not take things so personally, to be a bit more Teflon. Uh, and so that helped me not kind of use up my energy on beating myself up. You know, my energy needed to be to be deflecting things that I felt were not in my or the organization's interests. And that's not to say, you know, sometimes when we look at, and I I really love the way you talk about real models, because you know, we we look at role models and think, oh, they're actually kind of formidable, or I can't actually relate to them. I remember all of my career looking for women role models and going, oh no, I don't really want to be like that. She's sort of gone right over onto the alpha male, and she's sort of scary and efficient. I don't want to be her, and I don't want to work for her quietly, or others of, you know, really, really nice people, but you know, they're just never quite leadership material. And um, and so it was just having to get that grounded. I think something that did work for me well, I decided to do a mosaic of all the people, men and women, that I really did want to model because that is how we learn. When we were kids, that's how we learn. And so that whole if you can't see it, you can't be it, well, create it. Create it. You know, there are, I love the way he uses humor to just make everyone just relax when we start a meeting. You know, I love the way she just walks the floor, even though we know that she's got huge inbox to check in with people. I love the way he always takes us up a thousand feet once we get into the weeds and just sort of start looking, pay attention to what people are doing well. Because I agree, Mary, as you said, so easy for our minds to go to what's wrong and what people do poorly. And no one is perfect, you know. The the whole conquering hero is is is a myth, and no one can feel like that, and no one ever will. And it's not I know there's a lot spoken about confidence. Um and I I'm I just don't ever want anyone, let alone women, who have less confidence in a leadership role for a variety of reasons, to ever wait to feel confident. Because it never happens, I can tell you, at this stage of my career, it still doesn't happen. But courage is different, and what fuels my courage to go, okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna have this difficult conversation. Uh, yes, if we're gonna be able to do this, we can get the team together and figure out how. And again, courage is fueled by your why. What am I doing here? We know that we can be brave facing things that are challenging and difficult.

SPEAKER_01:

I totally agree with that. I can think of situations where a value is being crossed, and I immediately get into action to address that without even thinking, oh, am I frightened or not? I probably was, but you know, the fact was I just it was so important to go and address what had happened against it. And that's definitely linked to my why as well, because the two that you know, our values and our bigger purpose and everything are all very much interlinked. So you've mentioned before with the whole thing about navigating the gender piece. Um, and some of those things that you had to navigate were really, really unsubtle by the sounds of it. And I think that might be a sense without um insulting you about your age, but you know, the times that we live in, I think the yeah it has moved on. That would be totally unacceptable in today's corporate world, I think, that sort of comment. It was absolute you know, extreme. Yes. So, what helped you retain your integrity at senior level? As a woman leader, when navigating some of these very subtle biases.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, because in terms of the evolution, that wouldn't happen. Someone wouldn't ask someone wandering past to get to get him a cup of tea. But the fundamental assumption, Mary, has not gone away. That it's still the case. I'm coaching women now who get asked to take the notes at a meeting.

SPEAKER_01:

Or being told they're young.

SPEAKER_00:

I had one recently very young to be a leader. Yeah. She was no younger than the guy telling her, but she just looked younger, you know. And and one, and with again the best of intents, she said, I don't know how to deal with this. When I go into the board meeting, the men give me a hug. But they don't do that to the guys. How what am I going to do with this? And it was a good intent. They're not being, you know, creepy. Um, they want to be welcoming, but it's just like I'm a professional here, and everything that you're trying to do. So the the default to assuming that men are competent, women don't get that still. Um, so I think that that that tail is there still. Um, and you know, I think what it took me a long time to get, and it, you know, didn't teach, they didn't teach me at that business school, was this tension between the classic, you know, this about the agency versus communion. What works for men in leadership doesn't necessarily work for women. Because we are still, still, and I go every year looking at all of my research around stereotypes, it's still very, very persistent, this notion that men take charge, women take care, and leadership is seen as a take charge role still. Even though we've seen all of the feminization, that's less agentic than it was, still, when women exercise their agency, which we need to do as leaders, we get pushback because we're behaving counter-stereotypically, and that is as strong as ever. So that served me well, understanding that, being steeped in leadership development, and then figuring out how to navigate that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think what you're referring to, you remind me of what Amy, uh Mary Ann Sygaard writes about in the authority gap.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That if women are too, if women are direct and straight, they are penalized as opposed to their being much more relational. And can I just suggest here? And I hope this won't upset you too much, but I'm about to say something, you know, they're much more relational and sensitive and caring.

SPEAKER_00:

And we need to be, Mary, otherwise, our leadership is not acknowledged. And it's, you know, everyone's going, oh, isn't that old news? It's not. I would love it to be. This is this paradox where women left women leaders need to navigate. And it's one enduring cultural scripts, this sort of divide between agency and communion. Men take charge, women take care. And and leadership has been coded as masculine. So it rewards agency, but not when it comes from a woman, you'll get pushback.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm curious about you because you you strike me, and certainly I've been a part of your team when you've been leader. You're quite assertive. Um, you're able to communicate clearly and directly without having to be overly relational, which is often what is expected of a woman.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

How have you how did you get to that point?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's um it's it's tricky because you have to sort of have a reframe of both and. And it is, I just decided I would do both. It's how my leadership would land. I absolutely believe that great leadership didn't feel like I was fitting into a system that didn't accommodate me. It felt like I was creating a new system. Because I think all great leadership requires us to be able to take care and take charge, and men and women are equally capable of doing both. And so, yes, you have to be assertive and you can do that with warmth. You can be directive and still be aware of the people around you. You can because for the the things that are really critical that I see, Mary, and were for me when I look back, and a couple I was intentional about, and a couple I would have been happier if I'd figured it out earlier. How women exercise their authority, build their reputation, um, exercise and demonstrate their uh expertise and influence people, really important to a leadership career, absolutely filled with double bind stuff in there. And these are just dilemmas our male colleagues don't. It's not their fault. And these are we all get pushback from men and women, by the way. These contradictions aren't conspiracies, they're kind of the vestiges of an old system. And we're in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_01:

They are, and that it's learnt behavior from that old system. Absolutely. And I think you're quite right. It's not about pointing the finger and blaming people. We're all being indoctrinated in our upbringings to be the way we are, and whether you're male or female, we've learned through experience this is how we're meant to be, and so we're in the middle of trying to shift that. Um, and that's what can feel tiresome at times and difficult.

SPEAKER_00:

It's exhausting. And um, you know, the reality is that in terms of building your competence, all the work in Marianne's uh book, The Authority Gaps, absolutely spot on, uh, and and very true and very contemporary. So people go, oh, well, all the women that, you know, educational achievements from sporting. This sweet spot of women in leadership, the deep ambivalence still that society has about women and authority is very pervasive. So you say, How do you do it? Again, it's not contorting yourself to fit. So I absolutely believe that good leaders should take charge and take care. And we need to get skillful at the paradox. Uh, because to me, Mary, what I see is very exciting is seeing so many organizations wanting a paradox mastery as a key leadership skill, knowing that the binary, either or right, wrong, that it's really important that because I mean that's our job these days in this climate, in this chaos, is how do we solve for competing demands? And what's wonderful, and I know you'll think this is deeply optimistic, but it is, is that women have been doing that since the first time they stood in a manager role. We have to be both. We know you need to know both and, and it's a good mental discipline to have. Both are true. Keep your mind open to not being as binary and as black and white as you know our brains are telling us to. I mean, you know, it's not a moral failure, it's a natural human reactant to chaos.

SPEAKER_01:

It goes back to being a parent as well, that you know, not everyone's parents are parent, but they've we've all had experience of parenting, I'm sure, be it our relatives or or whatever. But there's something there about taking charge and taking care absolutely comes from our very upbringing and from the care we've received or the care we give out. And that's why it's so important that we start to um live that really in our leadership and take that into the workplace.

SPEAKER_00:

Part of it is all around these gender stereotypes that you know we persist with. Um, and that's not that they're right or wrong, but when it comes to leadership, they really can be tricky. And it's not, and the more senior you become, the more pushback you get. Because you're exercising your agency. So becoming really situationally fluent, every leader should be able to do that. What does the situation require? And then have a deep repertoire of skills, of both hand skills, and this won't land unless I do it with warmth and care. But the warmth and care will not overwhelm the direction of travel, but it will land. And I just think it's great leadership capability.

SPEAKER_01:

I I agree, and I can think about leaders I've worked with, male leaders who do that. And I'd far rather work for them than work for someone who doesn't, and they are much more successful leaders. It's just their journey seems to be easier than that of women.

SPEAKER_00:

Because we know the research tells us that men don't get penalized because you know, the so-called feminization of leadership models, it's still primarily agentic in our minds, um, but you know, collaborative and authentic, and all of the things that we've seen uh, you know, go round and round. Um, that men are rewarded for more feminine, uh, you know, so-called feminization, more collaborative, more take care. Women are not yet rewarded for more agentic behavior. Somehow, socially or culturally, it is a challenge. Now, you know, this is we've got to remember how far we've come. Again, that's part of them both are true. You know, we've come so far, it's still not good enough. Both are true. That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

And the thing about women do it naturally, so therefore, it's just expected that you do it. Whereas men, it's like, oh, look, he's learnt how to do it or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, he was probably able to do that anyway. And we turn that off or we turn that expectation off. And we expect, you know, still women to do most of the child care. It's much more career-limiting for men to ask for flexible working than it is for women.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's a bias that's affecting them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And and yet, you know, I'm working with a couple where she is determined she wants to get onto partner track, she's pregnant, she wants to go back after three months, he wants to be the full-time carer. Oh my goodness, in this day and age, the drama. How do we talk to our um how do we talk to even our parents, parents who were both professional women? Well, what will how would he know? One of the questions was, how will he know what to do when the kid's sick? Well, she said, Well, Sarah said, Well, how will I know what to do? I've never been there. So, you know, we think it's hard being the only woman in the boardroom, trying being the only man at the school gates.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes. I think that's a very common experience for those men that have chosen that path, is it can feel really intimidating. And also it's for all of us to learn and to allow that to be okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. How patronizing to men to say they don't know how to take care. We know, all the men in our life, we know that's not true.

SPEAKER_01:

So we are moving on then to consider the world today, and I'm curious about what you're seeing going on because you've got you're in a very gifted position in that you work with people in New Zealand, the US, and the UK. So, right across the globe, you're working. So, you're going to be seeing things from all sorts of different perspectives. And I'd love to know what you think feels different when you think about all you know, working across the globe, what feels different for you?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's um it's an intense time. I think everyone, just to sort of step back and observe um the you know, the challenges, uh, everything has become quite binary and polarized, particularly in North America. But you know, the same is happening here. And we know, you know this, this is not just a bad thing. This is, you know, when we are under threat and people feel under threat, um, our brains just go into simplification. So it's right, wrong, good, right. So it's it's a normal human response to actually feeling a huge amount of threat, and the joys of people being able to create threats that are actually not real. Um so it's very binary, having intelligent conversations is becoming increasingly challenging. Um, people's threat detectors is very live. Um and so a lot of uh there's sort of a victim uh, you know, kind of grievance culture that is so unhelpful, so unhelpful, because we absolutely know if you feel like a victim of a system, you can't learn. Absolutely shuts down learning.

SPEAKER_01:

So globally, we could say there's a phenomena going on that actually is hindering people fulfilling their potential, which ultimately will hinder performance from the organization's point of view.

SPEAKER_00:

People who are surviving it are really working hard on where they pay attention, how much time they spend in there, and then that whole, you know, the core, so much of the core of good leadership is, you know, as I said, what's the situation, and then being able to be really wise between the difference between reacting and responding. We don't get to react as leaders. We can't be on autopilot. No one wants to know your natural anger. We have to be able to take that wise pause. What does the situation require? How will I respond to this? And so, even as individuals, we've got to be really aware that uh how we respond to the world around us, we're in control of. You know, it's just like saying it's absolutely not fair that women need to manage this double bind dilemmas our our our male colleagues don't need to. But yes, it's not fair, and we need to notice that it's not fair, it's essential, but being defined by it is not. So I think very important that we liberate ourselves from that. We are, you know, our grandmothers, Mary, couldn't have imagined the influence that we would have had in boardrooms today. And so our goddaughters' daughters won't even imagine our experience. So, you know, we need to hold our nerve, we have to hold on to our why, because we are, we are the kind of bridge makers between how things were and how things will be. And we're in this tumultuous time of backlash, anxiety, let's all go back to where we were because it's all too scary, and now I'm feeling personally threatened. So we just have to be as wise as we can. And I know that often real wisdom is in those tensions that are you know that's solving for competing demands. So uh everyone's anxious, everyone is uncertain. Uh we've seen a real sort of throwback to the strong man, someone's going to tell us what to do. I actually think that will be a transient and a transitional reaction. Um, and all of these tensions. You know, there's not a CEO I talk to who's not going well. It's like that's why they're interested in people who can master paradoxes. Because it's like human, AI, national, global, local. Um we have to be thorough, we have to be fast. You know, there's all of these tensions, and so really good leadership requires that you are able yourself to master those.

SPEAKER_01:

So real mastery of self as well is comes into that, doesn't it? And linking it to the whole diversity, inclusivity agenda, which we've seen in the States already. So, you know, very well advertised, you know, uh not um Facebook, yeah, whoever else, I can't think of all the different tech giants that are cutting all their DEI programs on the back of the government and what's be what's come in. What does what what what where do you feel the situation is headed for for women and for gender diversity?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's a big question. Um, I think it's a pendulum swing. Uh and you know, if you had there's, you know, the the sort of polarization that happened, both in the left and the right, everyone sort of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Um the organizations, because I do a lot of work in North America. The organizations that are just interested in good talent pipelines and getting their best talent around the table, regardless of gender, and who have a commitment to gender equity and just getting on with it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so refreshing to hear.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's not all of them, and because some of them, uh very concerning conversations I've had, said, look, we just can't, because our clients are going, you know, because they all jump on the bandwagon and let's, you know, get rid of the wokarate. Um, and so I I see, you know, diversity fatigue, but I also see some bad solution fatigue, um, and fatigue with just having to have the cognitive load of working against our autopilots, of not being able to just be business as usual, the tensions that come with that, and sometimes it just feels such a relief to get off that and then just to default to, you know, just being as we were.

SPEAKER_01:

I can concur with that. I mean, I had a client recently where it was still, it was, it was an almost um closet diversity program. So we just had to really be very careful of the language that was being used because they were in they were in quite a public space. So really careful of the language that was being used during the program. And it was an inclusive program, it was all for all genders, but we just weren't allowed to call it a diversity program. It was it was fascinating, actually, really, but but I completely concur it was very challenging and exhausting to design it and to deliver it uh because of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's and it's I mean, I'm hoping that that reaction will dissipate and it will have been um, you know, a pendulum swing, because the reality of what, you know, if people were just you know embarking on diversity programs because it was a tick box, they felt they needed to, it's not likely to stick in the organization because the outcome, which is getting their, you know, there's not a CEO I talk to, male or female, that isn't pulling their hair out, that they can't get their high potential woman, that that broken leadership pipeline with women disproportionately falling out year after year. And they know it's not, you know, about quotas and it's not about this. They know it's about nuance and subtle, it's not overt. Um, and most of them are doing really interesting things. Like I ran a um with the C-suite, and it was a program just called Meeting Civility. They decided, and you know, we know women are interrupted more, they they you know get told their idea. And so the we just taught this the CEO, he was great. He said, Oh God, is that what's gonna happen? Interesting, Mary. He said, Is that what's gonna happen to my daughter when she's around the board? And it wasn't uh you guys, it wasn't reprimanding or finger-wavy, it was this is the dynamic that's happening in this evolution while we're still, you know, really getting to terms with what does a woman leader look like and behave like. Um, and so he just did some really interesting stuff, and it wasn't a big we're going to do this, it was like that's a really good idea, John. I think it was a build on what Judy was saying. Judy, would you like to? Very interesting. But he said, I didn't that was happening all the time, and I wasn't even aware of it. Uh so and you know, making sure. Sure, it said so um Jane, um what do you think about that? So there's no no hiding if women are trying to get in, watching that, um interruptions, yeah. Okay, Jack, can we just let's can we just finish what uh Jane was hearing? I'd just like to and then he did it so effortlessly, and of course, what he was doing was role modeling to the C S Fed. And it was only it was called meeting civility. And why wouldn't you want that in an organization? And it wasn't about oh, we've got to get and of course, no woman wants to be in a meeting with them, oh your poor thing, you know, you don't speak up or you don't know how to stay in play when you're being uh challenged.

SPEAKER_01:

But I hear that was coming from the top, which makes such a difference. So he was wanting his board, his meetings to be inclusive and to support everyone in there to have it, which is fantastic. So I'm really conscious we've moved on to the whole subject of what's going on with the state of play for gender diversity and and what what is what are the trends that are coming through. So I want to just I'm gonna pause us for this episode and say a big thank you for what you've shared so far about your story, how you've navigated the um the heights of leadership and and taken on the challenges in the most elegant way, I might add, Penny. You really role model. No, you do, you role model a real elegant approach to leadership. That and that whole thing of managing mastery of taking care and taking charge. I love that. That's something that I've written down and will stay with me. So that is wonderful. So I'm going to pause it for now and I'm going to invite everyone to stay with us for the next episode, which will be released next Wednesday, which is going to be Penny and I exploring the current trends and the challenges that women are facing in the workplace and what's coming through in the McKinsey Report 2025. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.

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Mary Gregory

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