S2 Ep 11: When Success Stops Feeling Like Success - Deboleena Dasgupta on Career Growth, Sponsorship and Choosing Depth

What happens when you’ve done everything right in your career, delivered results, built credibility, and yet still find yourself wondering, is this really it?

In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, Mary Gregory is joined by Deboleena Dasgupta, a senior people, culture and change leader with a 25-year career in global banking, including leadership roles at HSBC, Standard Chartered and ABN AMRO.

Together they explore what it means to build a successful career inside large organisations while quietly sensing you are capable of more. Debolina shares reflections on nonlinear careers, international moves, cultural expectations, visibility, sponsorship, networking as an ecosystem rather than a transaction, and the subtle ways organisations can leave women feeling unseen.

This is also a powerful conversation about identity and transition — including the lightbulb moment that helped Deboleena realise she was punching below her weight, and why leaving well mattered so much to her.

They also discuss Deboleena’s forthcoming book, Choose Depth, and the importance of defining success on your own terms.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why high-achieving women can still feel stuck at work
• The hidden cost of being praised but not progressed
• How culture and upbringing shape self-belief and ambition
• Why women are often over-mentored and under-sponsored
• A more authentic way to think about networking
• What it means to end well when leaving a long career chapter
• Why choosing depth may be the path back to your truest self

A thoughtful and deeply resonant conversation for anyone rethinking success, leadership and what comes next.

Connect with Deboleena on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/deboleenadasgupta/

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 ✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the She Lee's Collective Podcast. So what happens when you're consistently told you're talented but there's nowhere left for you to go? I think this is quite a common phenomenon for many people in organisations, and today's conversation is for anyone who has built a successful career inside a large organisation, done all the right things, delivered the results, and yet quietly wondered, is this really it? My guest today is Debolina Daskupta, a senior people, culture and change leader with a 25-year career in global banking, including nearly two decades at HSBC and earlier roles at Standard Charter and ABN AMRO. Debolina has worked at the very heart of complex organisations, shaping leadership pipelines, embedding sponsorship programs, leading culture change across geographies, and supporting leaders through moments of deep transition. But this is not just a conversation about success. It's a conversation about identity, visibility, sponsorship, culture, and the moment when you realise you're actually punching below your weight and decide to stop. Today we'll be discussing nonlinear careers, the unseen courage behind international moves, how culture and upbringing shape our beliefs, and what it really means to end well when you leave a long-tenured role. Debolina is also writing a book, Choose Depth. And as you'll hear, this next chapter isn't a departure from her work, it's a reclaiming of it. Debolina, thank you so much for joining me today. It's really great to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Hi, Mary morning. Very pleased to be here. And thanks very much for the very generous introductions. I just measured my self-esteem, and it's 150 out of 100 now.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

That's great. We like to please. So let's start off a bit about setting some context around yourself because the reason I approached you to be a guest on the podcast is I you came across to me as a really great role model. I talk about real models on this podcast, and you really are a fantastic real model. Because you spent 25 years inside some of the largest financial institutions. So when you look back on your career through those institutions, what would you say is sort of the through line of your career?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

It's been a very fascinating journey. And uh, even if I try describing it by using the hardest word super califragilistic expialidocious, I would probably not do justice to it because of the sheer diversity of experiences that my career has given me so far. Um, coming back to your point on the through line, I think one common red thread has been the opportunity to be immersed into very large and complex change and transformation programs. Uh so irrespective of which country I was operating in, which organization I was working for, which team I was a part of, I think I've been very fortunate to drive very complex, multi-dimensional programs and change projects, which were not only mission critical for the organization at that point of time, but also very critical to the entire industry, which I feel really fortunate about.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Incredible. So some fantastic experiences. And you talk about your career being nonlinear, and you know, there is the term these days, a squiggly career, which you refer to yours being like that, because you've had international roles, you've moved around. What do you think people often miss when they look at a career like yours from the outside?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

What people often miss. Well, it depends on who these people are. So let me answer this by dividing the people into buckets. All right. So I happen to mentor a lot of younger uh people, and they're really smart. They often don't want to miss out everything, anything for that matter. They are as interested in your low points, your troughs, your failures, your faults, as much as they are interested in your success stories, uh, which is a very clever thing to do, I would say. Uh, about uh people who are like, you know, who are like those social media scrolls, you know, who don't know me in person, but who see me who I am from the outside, I would say it's pretty much like, you know, um, getting excited about the outer gloss of the success and the glamour of the job and and and the life, but they often probably don't know or don't care much about the hardships and the layers and layers of disappointments, rejections, failures that one has to go to to reach here. Um, and then, you know, I would talk also about my inner circle, my family, my friends. I wouldn't say that they miss anything about this, but I would rather say that I want them to miss something. Uh, and that is sometimes I go through these hidden fears and anxiety about what I would subject them to because of a bold decision that I've taken or an ambiguous situation that I am in. And um I think that is a much, much more difficult situation for me that handling something for myself. You know, I can take take a bullet happily for myself, but I can't see my family in pain. So I don't want them to see see that part of me.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

So there's something there about you, you are at work, you feel like you can be quite tough, you can take the bullets, as it were, but it's like you've got to make sure you protect your family and that how you are, how you show up, doesn't impact your family negatively in any way.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Absolutely, absolutely. And at times it does, isn't it? You know, I mean, uh, so beyond a point, I don't want them to be impacted. But I think at the in the same vein, I must say that I'm very fortunate to have a very change-agile family uh who kind of cheers around me and and and gets happy with the very change-driven life that I've I've chosen.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

And did they move with you with all the different international roles you took?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Absolutely. And uh they did that very happily, and it ended up to be not only a career move that way, it ended up to be a very holistic life move. And if you even talk to my husband today or my son, who's kind of grown up in this country, uh, they would say that they had their own beautiful journeys of evolution and they value it as much as I did. So while I was the starting point of the course, but in the journey, everybody has their own experiences, their own lessons, and their own happy moments of discovery.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Well, I really like that you highlight, though, what can look very glamorous and sorted out on the outside. There is a lot of hard work that goes into it and challenges that you have to face along the way as well. So it's not it's not all that one might see on the surface. So I'm therefore curious about what capabilities do you feel that you've been able to build that aren't necessarily on the job description? You know how you see your job description and this is what they're looking for. But you know, it's so much more nuanced what we do at work. So, what capabilities do you feel you've built as a result of all the different roles you've had?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, that's indeed my favorite question. And uh, while I can think of many, uh before I forget, let me tell you, I want to talk about three things here. The first one being curiosity. Uh, because I genuinely believe, Mary, that curiosity is is uh not a gift, it is a skill, it is a practiced capability. Uh so my mother, when I was very young, used to say something which really got drilled hard into my head. Uh, she used to say that no knowledge goes into waste. You might not use it at this point of time, but when life challenges you, you will be able to access that knowledge and turn it into wisdom. And I think this has uh stayed with me uh consistently throughout not only my career, but also in my life. And uh the way I've seen life is with that childish curiosity. Even today, I can get up in the morning and ask myself, uh, like a child, okay, what am I going to do today? That's that's new to me, right? And I think that helps in your career as well, because uh one, you um can choose different kinds of roles, different kinds of portfolios, different cultures, different geographies, pretty much the way I did. And um uh I experimented all my way through um, you know, challenging myself, pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And when I speak to people today, they have actually seen that as very bold moves. But honestly, if you ask me, I didn't see them as bold at all because that was my most spontaneous and my natural self.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

And there's something there, so to pulling that together with curiosity. The thing about curiosity, when you say it's a skill, it is about suspending judgment. You cannot be curious if you're being judgmental. So you've got to kind of just get curious and interested in things. And I'm hearing that that's what really propelled you through your career is that sense of curiosity and wanting to experiment with things. And that was that that sounds like it was fun for you. Other people might find it scary, but you found it fun.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, and I use a word uh called micro-try. Uh so you try things for very small stretches of time. You try something for 10 minutes, you try something for 10 days, right? Because that's how the brain either accepts it or rejects it. If you try small things, it's rare that the brain will reject it and you'll form neural pathways that are new. And that has always helped me from thinking it, perceiving this either as a success or a failure. Because if I make it larger than life, then I will have that fear of failure, we will which will stop me to experiment.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yes, and that also links in with taking just very small steps. Right. Um, because that helps you manage the fear, I guess, when you're taking smaller steps. Let's move on then and talk. You know, you've you started talking about your mum and the influence she's had on you, and you've spoken about growing up as a high performer and that there was cultural influence around you becoming that high performer. Um when you think about always achieving and always proving yourself, how did that shape the way you interpreted moments when you felt unseen at work?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

That's an interesting one. Let me say up front that I've been extremely lucky to get an absolutely fantastic childhood and a great parenting. Um, in fact, both my parents believed that I, rather, we, me and my sister, could achieve anything that if that we put our minds into. And uh trust me, they're not there today. But even today, when me and my sister are in trouble or we have a challenging moment, the sheer trust that they had on us uh does magic to our self-esteem and our uh self-belief, even today. Uh, so that's great, but not generally talking, not specifically talking about my childhood or my parenting. I would say in general, Asian slash Indian parenting, while it teaches you uh a lot of disdiscipline, a lot of high standards to live up to, it has, I think, some unintended consequences as well. And that is uh tying your identity, I would say, a lot to uh what you achieve and and and to what how you perform, right? I remember um I'll share an anecdote with you of childhood, and I remember I was uh about uh 12, 13, 14 years old then, and I was having consecutive mathematics exams, which you we used to call as arithmetic then, not mathematics proper, because you know you're not yet in, you're just into your secondary school. And I was scoring around 95, 96 in a row out of 100. And I remember after the third exam, when I uh scored about 95, there was a serious discussion at home why I lost those five or four marks. And I laugh about it when I think about it now because we absolutely did not think of celebrating the 95 marks or the 96 marks that came home. So, what happens here is you carry, you don't, you're not conscious, but you're carrying this with you throughout your life, and that reflects also in the way you look at your career. So, your question was how when I felt unseen, how how did that impact me? I think uh many a times uh when you're a problem solver, when you're a go-getter, you think that every problem is for you to solve. So I absolutely ignored the fact that there were some problems that I wasn't even supposed to solve. It was for others to solve, but it took me some time to realize that. So, one is that. Uh, and the other thing is you may want to just keep on doing more and more. So, a lot of times in my career, uh, because I wanted to be the better version of myself, and be when you have a non-linear career, Mary, you're constantly having to prove yourself again and again because you're in different settings, right? So, what happened to me was I was taking on a lot of uh additional work, uh, you know, double hatting, triple hatting, and all of that. And then I realized that I it's so hard giving yourself the permission to step back and pause and tell yourself that it's not about you. Probably it's the environment, and you should change the environment and not yourself. And therefore, I now realize I probably would have overstayed in organizations, overstayed in certain roles, overstayed in certain teams, which I wouldn't have if I had this realization earlier when you I was in the motion, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, absolutely it does. I think what you shared, many women will relate to men too as well. Quite often we think it's to do with us when we're not being seen or we're not being noticed, um, and therefore we just have to keep doing harder and working harder and being better. Um, so it's quite interesting that you started to realize that actually it's not actually me, it's the context and the environment which I'm working in. What actually opened your eyes to that?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

I think it uh my eyes were opened uh pretty uh uh late in the career, and because I I always considered myself to be a confident person. I was fairly confident, I was eloquent about expressing my views and my perspectives, and I was fairly assertive. You know, my assertiveness score and my uh agreeableness score is uh pretty decent compared to the average women. Um, so therefore, I didn't struggle much on that front in early and mid-career. I think the first time I realized this was uh when I changed, moved internationally, and the culture was so different, and I jumped into action again, proving myself, uh, only to realize that I needed to step back and watch out on the patterns, some of the nonverbal cues, the unspoken um, you know, dynamics, politics, and how I should navigate that. Because when you come from a different culture, the way you see things are very different from the way you are actually. Uh, so even you know, little things, how feedback is received, how it is given, what you should take away from that feedback. Um this was a very new learning for me. And I stepped back to kind of take that pause, reflect more, introspect more.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Okay, so that helped you not take it so personally, I guess. It helped you separate more from what was happening.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

To actually notice and being becoming more of an observer of what was happening.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah, yeah. And and this ability to stand at a distance and look at what is happening to you. And I think when you and I spoke for the first time, we did speak about this in the context of how I manage relationships. So when we talk about that, I can share some more perspectives about how I do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Okay. So one of the things that you realized though as you went through your career was that you were punching below your weight, that you had capability, and actually you were recognized within the organizations you worked, but you see it, there would theren seem to be a place for you to really fulfill your potential. So I'm curious about what that turning point moment was when you you you said you had that time where you started to step back and observe, but when did the penny actually drop for you that you wanted things to be different?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Right. Uh, I wouldn't like to make it sound very dramatic because uh it was a very organic moment for me. I knew for a while that I was punching below my weight, but you know, I I'm somebody who doesn't look at career uh singularly, you know, it's a part of my whole life. And there were things going on in my life, even on the personal front. And I for me at that point of time, the priority was stability and balance. And I took a very conscious decision, knowing that it would be like this. For example, you know, my child was going through a very critical um uh phase of his education. I had a couple of health issues. We had moved countries very newly, so there was a bigger thing around settling in and feeling happy about who we were. So, uh, and then I was I was studying. I I did a uh full MBA for two years from London Business School. It was a lot of sacrifices, not only from my end, after doing a full-fledged full-on job, a lot of sacrifice for my family as well. So, to balance, I would say that it was okay for me to punch below my weight and not be super adventurous. But I waited for the moment patiently. And that moment came, I would say, again, not very impulsively. Yes, uh, it was a very well thought-out decision when I thought that yes, now I don't even have a dependency on the on the visa. Now I'm settled for good in this country and um I can do uh you know even bolder things. Um but yes, to your question, what when the when did the penny drop? It's funny because at times, you know, it's just that one trigger that tells you to press the button, right? And we were having this uh very happy-go-lucky um after work uh evening office party, and we were having this very casual discussion around what would you have been if you were not uh working for a bank? And when my turn came, I said that, well, uh I would have been an author, maybe, or a lawyer, or a journalist, uh, if I were not to do this boring job. And when I said that, it came out very spontaneously and everybody laughed. Uh, but you know, that night it really kept me awake. And I started wondering why did I even call my job boring? And if you, it's so ironic, Mary. If you see, you know, sitting on the 35th floor of the headquarters doing a global role for nine and a half years, um, it is actually I've manifested everything that I wanted to do. And I worked towards it, I fought for it, I made my sacrifices, I made my family do sacrifices. And when I was living that moment, it was very ironic for me to think that it was boring. And I think it was the a very classical mirror moment for me. The mirror in my bedroom was asking me this question that which version of success are you chasing? And why are you uh trying to create a version of success that is defined and shaped by others?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Wow, that really was a turning point moment. It really was the light bulb going on at that time, wasn't it? Because your job wouldn't be boring, of course, but it was the stage of where you were at in your life. And what you started to open up to that maybe meant that you expressed it as that. Suddenly, suddenly it wasn't what you wanted anymore.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

And I I I thought I I could do way more than what I was doing. So I I and even when I talk to you now, I don't know what the path will look like from here, but I know that I want to follow a path that looks very much like my truer self. And at the end of the day, I should be happy about who I am becoming.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I love that. And I love the term becoming as well, because we're all becoming. No one stays the same. We're all in that process of becoming, aren't we? And the curiosity you mentioned that is that you used in your earlier career, and I imagine it carries you through your career, will absolutely help you with where you're at right now in your life, in your career as well. So I just want to hold with this though, because I think many women in their 30s, 40s, and 50s have moments like the one you've just described there. So I would like to just invite you to say, what would you say to someone who's out there listening today? Maybe they've had their light bulb moment, but they haven't had the found the courage to act yet. What do you think would be a supportive thing to help them with? What could they do?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

I think you can make this question as simple as you can, and I would try to give you a very simple answer here. Uh, see, I think women are very courageous as souls. So we do not fear failure. What we fear is to be seen as failure in the eyes of others. So I would say to all those women who are being bothered about what others are thinking about them, I will tell them that as soon as soon as you give away the power to others to define and shape what life and success and career will look like for you, it will mess up things for you. And the moment you reclaim that power to yourself, you will reach your path the sooner and you will be happy about who you are. And in the end, that is what matters.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah, so connecting to what is really important to you and choosing the path that is going to work for you rather than trying to fulfill others' expectations.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Yes, one is that, Mary. And the other thing I feel is really one should watch out for misalignment. And what I mean by this is uh when uh our beliefs are not matching with our thoughts and our thoughts are not matching with our actions, our mind, body, and soul are not aligned. And when our mind, body, and soul are not aligned, our choices, our decisions are not aligned with who we are, our truest selves. But when this alignment happens, we very easily make peace with our past, we get excited about the future, and at the same time, we enjoy our presence. And presence is is your is your field to do actions. So be in the present, don't think too much about your past, don't think too much about your future, and just and and just focus on the present. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I love it, I love it. Thank you. I think we're we're um in in in uh real agreement here on many things, Deboline. I totally agree that actually all our answers are actually in the present. We can't predict the future, we can just manage how we are in the present, and that will help shape our future. So that's why what you do in the present is so so important. Some wonderful wisdom that you're sharing here today. Thank you so much. It's wonderful. So let's just talk a bit about. We mentioned culture earlier on, but you have had an international career across Asia and the UK. How do you think culture, both national and organizational, has actually shaped the way you navigate your career?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Uh, that's very important. And culture looks very different when you're in your own country. It can look beautiful, but it is nothing like when you move out of your comfort zone because that's the real point where you taste culture of others and have the perspective really to understand others in the real sense. So I'll give you some examples. Um, um, it has taught me a lot about how to network differently. Uh, and I'll I'll tell you more about my introverted networking and how I worked around that. Um, but it also different cultures also teach you to be more understanding about other styles, um, not only working styles, but uh uh the you know the traditions, customs. And I'll give you an example not only from work. I I talked about the MBA that I uh did, and we had 27 nationalities in that room. So every other Friday we would go for a culture dinner. And you wouldn't imagine, Mary, how much you can learn about somebody else's culture simply by understanding their uh traditional cuisines. And at times you feel that you know you've had so much of blind spots and so much of unconscious biases while talking to people, which is so humbling because you don't realize what you're doing, because you don't know the hundreds and thousands of years of histories of others' cultures, and you make these mistakes unknowingly and you upset others unknowingly. But I think this whole international experience, and even when I worked in in Asia, I would say that I always had a multi-geographical portfolio, right? So it helped me to understand even remotely what works, what doesn't work. Because today, if you look at the workplace, it is so different. Like everybody is working in project teams, right? In program teams, they're sitting in different time zones, different locations, different geographies, right? Even through the phone or through Zoom remotely, if you don't take interest human to human in the other person and understand each other, I think it impacts your ability to navigate your network and and and drive your agenda in the face of the hard politics that you face in the organization.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

So I I what I'm hearing there is being really sensitive to the context that you're in and the people that are there. So, like almost like the social intelligence of sensitivity to others and where they're coming from is going to really help you in what whatever job you have, whether it you know, but particularly if you're doing a multicultural job and working across different cultures. Um, I would like to stay on the subject of networking though, because I know that um you see networking more as an ecosystem than as a transaction. And I know myself from working with women over many, many years, quite often women will go, oh no, not networking. I don't want to go networking. Um, for listeners who hate networking, what would you like to offer them that would make it more accessible for them?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Yeah, uh, I think I would offer my own example, which can really give them the courage. If I could crack it, anybody could. Because let me tell you, I am inherently an introvert. Uh, so much so that even my highly extroverted roles that I've done in my career have only been able to uh adapt me into a conditional extrovert, right? So you can imagine how difficult and how shy uh I am. I used to be when it uh when we talked about networking. And I'm talking about a time in early 2000, 2010, you know, those decades where networking would mean typically going out on drinks after work and a very male version of networking. Uh, and and you get you feel inhibited at so many levels with that, right? So one day I just told myself, I'm I'm not doing well on networking at all, but I can't not be doing well. So enough of it. Let me devise my own format of networking, which really sticks. And what I did was I told you about my curiosity, right? I love reading, I love writing, I love experimenting on various topics. I'm a big time social experimenter. So, what I did was I started talking about those themes and those topics to people. Um, and uh that went on pretty well, and people started appreciating that. And I realized it was very easy for me to connect with people that way because it felt so very authentic. I know and I have no disregard for books and narratives that say that fake it till you make it and fake it till you become it. I absolutely love those concepts, but it doesn't work for me because at the end of the day, I cannot fake anything. It has to be authentic for me. And that style of networking really stuck with me. So, my message to uh the listeners would be feel free to just define your own uh version of networking, if I may say so. And whatever works for you, do that in that way, as long as you do it in a way that it retains who you are.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

So I uh the theme that's coming through our conversation is keep reconnecting with who you are, with your personal power, and do things in the way that works for you. So find a way of networking that is going to be one that where you will feel comfortable and you can be yourself in.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yeah, and one other deeper point here, Mary, is that um if you it has to come from within. Uh, if you are somebody who believes in uh giving and receiving as a linear transaction, you will find it very difficult to network in the longer run because then you're what you're looking for is an immediate gratification, an immediate reward. But the message I'm I'm going to uh share with uh everybody is that uh when you do something for somebody, try to do with it without any expectation. Not everybody who's risk who you are receiving from needs something from you. And the other way around, if you are giving something to somebody, you might not need something in return. So giving and taking are nonlinear. You will receive from somebody you've never given to, but you give anyways. So if you believe in that from the core of your heart, networking becomes very easy because you're not chasing any outcome at that point of time.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

And it's much more organic, is what you're describing. It's a much more organic approach. So just by you giving something to somebody else, it doesn't mean they're necessarily going to give you anything back. But there's something, there's something about your sending out the message, and uh some people call it the vibration that makes you open to receiving other things that might come in. And I must admit, for me, whenever I'm busy offering stuff or doing stuff for clients or being out there and supporting others, it's amazing how you receive offers of interest, offers of work, or do you just have a discovery call without any expectation? You have no idea where it's come from, but it's because you're out there being in amongst it and contributing your energy in some way, there's always a there's always a sort of comeback on that. Lovely. Okay, so um I also just wanted to touch on the whole nature of sponsorship as well and mentorship, because you know, from my experience, what I find is that women generally get over-mentored and under-sponsored, and particularly in some organizations, if you want to get ahead in your career, it's impossible to do that unless you actually are actively sponsored within the organization. So, what difference did sponsorship make to you in your own career?

SPEAKER_00 34:48

I would say um I would address both the points. This one, and you made a very interesting point about over-mentored and under sponsored. So I'll address that as well. So let me address that first, all right? So when it comes to women, I think uh we are very conscientious as creatures, right? So we take feedback seriously, we work on it. Uh, and when you have mentors, you you get a regular stream of feedback that you have to work on. Um, but at the end of the day, um a lot of organizations, if you observe in the last five years, have built a lot of both mentoring programs within the organizations and also sponsorship programs within the organization. I would say whether it is mentoring or sponsorship, don't overdepend on the structured programs that your employer gives you. Go out, figure out who is inspiring you as a leader, who you are connecting at a bandwidth level, and go and approach them boldly and with courage. Give them your real reason for connecting and try to build the relationship again very, very organically. Because in my experience, I don't have too many sponsors, but I would say that a few that I had were my mentors who grew organically into sponsors. So if you are given a sponsor by a structure, it is very unlikely. And I think if I remember correctly, my ex-organization and I, we had done a research on how many such relationships out of 100 go beyond that nine or 12 months of the formal structure of sponsorship, not even 10%. Right? So, you know, after the program ended, did the two people, the sponsor and sponsee, stay in touch? No, around 9 or 10, 10 hardly did. So it is an organic process, but sponsorship really matters. And I think uh uh for senior leaders, one of the things that uh I believe is at times for women, um, a lot of feedback is given. Uh, but at the end of the day, uh, other than the feedback, what women also need is the exposure to real opportunities, to real experiments so that they know where they went wrong, where they failed, so that they can roll their sleeves up and come back again and be better. But you are constantly working on feedback, but you're not getting that real opportunity to do it through a role. Even if you are popping up in some uh exco meeting for 10 minutes to do a spotlight, that is not good enough for visibility. You should have visibility in the form of a real role. And if a woman is told, oh, you are so hardworking, so passionate, so responsible, then a man should not not be said that, oh, I know you can do the job. Do you think you can do this job as well? A woman is not often said that.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yes, okay. Uh then I I'm I'm curious now because you your background is talent, it's culture development, it's people. So with your talent and succession lenses on, where do you feel organizations unintentionally block progress for women?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I think um it's against not to do with any specific organization, it's absolutely systemic, Mary. Uh, I think women's uh are suffering from a lot of change fatigue, and that change fatigue is not generic change fatigue that everybody goes through, right? And why I'll I'll clarify. One is because at various points of times in life, one is going through this identity change or shift, right? You become a new mother, you come back and you are having to prove yourself again at work. As you're growing up your child, you're having to prove that you can balance both identities, right? Your leadership changes with the change of God, you're having to prove yourself again in front of people, a new set of people, and that change fatigue can really uh be a little disappointing. And at times, you know, when we talk about exclusion, we make it sound very dramatic, a textbook scenario of ostracization, a big showdown that may have happened. No, I think exclusion and and and there is so much of research, Marie, that says that uh women can tolerate uh uh lack of a pay hike or lack of a promotion over a period of time. But if they feel even slightly excluded or not, let us call it not included, then that is good enough for a woman to leave the organization. And that being not included can show up in micro moments, micro choices that are made that are not in favor of you, micro decisions, you know how you are spoken to when certain opportunities come in the organization. Suppose you're always being told that you're great and you're doing a fantastic job, but when the real rules come, some you know, you don't see yourself in that league or in that pipeline, then there is a long mismatch between words and action. And that in itself could be a very subtle form of exclusion.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Okay, so it's it is so subtle. And what do you think would be the simplest thing an organization could do to try and address that? Because it feels because it is systemic, but there is something about where where can we approach the system that might have a big impact? Where would be where would be the smallest adjustment that would make the biggest difference?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

I think two, three things. One is feedback should not be agenda-driven, you should not um weaponize feedback uh based on whether you're able to provide an opportunity to somebody or not, right? I think being genuine matters a lot because that is what builds leadership, trust, and confidence. So if you are not, and we are all mature as human beings, and it is an adult-to-adult conversation. If you are honest to say that, well, this is not something I can give you right now because of X, Y, Z, systemic reasons, it's fine. I think we are all mature to understand. So that that clarity and that that proactive communication and that transparency is very important. It shouldn't be that, you know, I don't want to give you this role. So I'm saying in your list of feedback, stakeholder X or Y has said so this about you. So there's really a question mark in the room whether you're ready or not. You know, so I think genuine conversation adult to adult is definitely something that and the other thing is I think um activization of talent pipeline in terms of real experiments and opportunities. I um I refuse to believe that today any organization will have dearth of innovative projects, you know, with this whole thing that is happening with AI and everything. There is so much to do, and we are all trying to do this with leaner teams. So every and especially women, they're always ready to double head to take extra responsibility. I think throw them in the ocean and see how they swim and how they survive. And one day they will thrive. But uh, you know, we should have systematically some arrangement where people have access to these strategic projects and they can dive into these projects to really feel excited about their self-confidence.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Lovely. Let's move on then, because you know, you talked about your light bulb moment when you know that turning point moment where you throw it made that throwaway remark, and it really made you question where you were and suddenly realized you weren't in the place you wanted to be. It wasn't right for you anymore. But I also want to acknowledge you left HSBC very positively, and I'm a great advocate for whenever you are leaving anywhere, you should focus on ending well. So you're a great role model for ending well. Why was why was it so important to you that you left well once you'd made your decision to leave?

SPEAKER_00 43:36

For me, it was very natural again, uh Mary, because it didn't look like an activity that I had to do or ensure on the surface. Uh, maybe because of uh the person I am inherently. You know, I've always played the long game, not only in career, also in life. I'm a person who uh believes in gratitude. So Evidently, when I'm ending a chapter or I'm starting a new chapter, it is about a lot of gratitude. And I think that if you're a systems thinker, if you're if you believe that when a dysfunction or a problem happens, if you believe that it is a combination of various factors at play, some factors are visible, some factors are not visible, then automatically you will refrain from putting the blame or on one person or or a bunch of people. And why that helps you rather than the situation, it I think it helps more you because you can be very objective about it. And I looked at this exit very objectively. And I think I was telling you last time that my boss has written a beautiful recommendation on LinkedIn and said that I would love to work with Evelyn again. And uh I think it is a very genuine uh sense that I've given to people uh that uh, you know, don't burn bridges and and relationships can really transcend organizations if you want to. You might not be talking to them daily, but you can really keep them in in good uh in a good form of energy in your heart.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

And a real, what I hear, a real transcendence of ego, actually. It was very ego-free. You know, there was there was nothing acrimonious, there's nothing like I'm right there, wrong, there. It was all very much, I've come to this realization, I see my way forward as different to the way forward I had originally thought within the bank. And therefore we're gonna part our ways. And you did, and you've done it very amicably. And I'm not surprised you see that because you've written a whole book on ego. Yes, well, that's what you reminded me of. When you were told, I thought this is so ego-free, the way you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

No, absolutely, and I think ego is is the biggest inner demon that comes in our way, which makes us feel in control and we we fear not being in control. Uh, but you know what really troubles me when I see these narratives out in the world that says that you have to manage your relationships if you want to grow new in your career. It is almost uh it sounds like a strategy. Well, you can make it a strategy, but it won't work as a strategy if you don't believe it from the bottom of your heart.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Absolutely. And also be willing to work on yourself as well, because how you show up in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Right. And I I think I told you last time about how I perceive relationships, and I've written a lot about that in my book as well. Uh, that, you know, I have never um, and I think a lot goes to my upbringing and my mother as well. Um, I don't look at relationships as ego titles now that you speak about ego. So you and I are talking, you're not Mary, who is such an award-winning author, and I'm not a person who's spent 25 years in corporate. I think I'm here to learn something from you, and you're learning something from me. So if you focus on the lesson that you learn from a relationship, you will automatically distance the ego titles that we all carry, consciously or unconsciously.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Beautifully put, and also a beautiful transition into your book as well, because that's my next question, which is you know, you're stepping into your next chapter and you're writing your book, which is called Choose Depth, beautiful title, and it's coming out this year. Um, what does choosing depth actually mean for you now?

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Oh, well, um absolutely the writing of the book has been the most exhilarating part of my uh existence in the last nine months, I would say. Uh I would say choosing depth to me at this point of time means uh at any cost being the real me, being the truest self of me, and uh doing things that really makes me happy, and do it in a way that I'm not uh scared of it as success or failure. And that's exactly what I'm saying through the book as well. Today, Mary, if you look at it, I feel the biggest challenge that we face in today's life is that we are so much driven by pace and uh you know we are living a shallow life on the surface, on the go, uh, trying to secure quick wins everywhere. Um, and depth is the reason I chose depth as a subject, is because depth is your deeper conscience, it is your inner coherence that will help you define and follow the version of success that looks like the real you without losing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Again, beautifully put. And I'm feeling such a connection with so many of the things that you're saying here today. Um, Devolina, I would like to say a big thank you for coming and sharing so much wisdom with us today. And um, your book is out later in the year. Will you come back and speak to us when your book is out?

SPEAKER_00 49:18

We'd be delighted to. Would be absolutely delighted.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

I'd love to hear more about it. Okay, well, how can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Uh I'm on I'm all over on LinkedIn. I think my LinkedIn has my personal email address as well. So if they want to connect with me, I do coach a lot. I do coach on not only executive coaching, but also life and work intelligence, you know, because I think the biggest challenge we face today at the workforce is to integrate life and work. And obviously, couriers, a lot of people talk to me who want international moves and who want to pivot. So I'm always there and uh we can discuss how we can work together.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Lovely. Thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Thank you so much, Mary. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.