S3 Ep4: It’s Not a Confidence Problem: Lauren Neal on Bias, Leadership and Women in STEM

What if the problem isn’t your confidence, but the system you’re trying to succeed in?

In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, Mary Gregory is joined by Lauren Neal, chartered engineer, chartered project professional, founder of Valued at Work and author of the book of the same name.

Lauren has spent nearly two decades delivering complex projects in the energy sector, and in this honest and powerful conversation, she shares her experiences of both blatant and subtle workplace bias — from being set up to fail early in her career, to being told she didn’t fit the “tribe” of project management because she didn’t drink, swear or behave like the men around her.

Together, Mary and Lauren explore why this is not simply about individual confidence, but about culture, systems, leadership and belonging.

They discuss:

•  How bias shows up in male-dominated environments 
•  Why women are often told to change themselves rather than the system changing 
•  The hidden “club” that shapes opportunity and progression 
•  What real allyship looks like in meetings and decision-making 
•  Why inclusive leadership is central to performance 
•  What women can do to hold onto their value when the culture around them undermines it 

This episode is for women navigating bias at work, leaders who want to understand what inclusion really requires, and anyone committed to building workplaces where people are truly valued.

Connect with Lauren on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenneal/

Buy Laurens book Valued At Work - https://amzn.eu/d/01pUbhvf

🔗 Connect with Mary: marygregory.com

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 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mary_gregory/

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 ✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to SheLeads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to today's episode of the She Leads Collective podcast. So what happens when the problem isn't your confidence, but the system you're trying to succeed in? For many women, particularly in male-dominated industries such as science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, commonly referred to as STEM, the narrative has long been that if you just build more confidence, speak up more, push a little harder, things will shift. But what if that's only part of the story? What if the environment itself is shaping who's heard, who gets recognised, and ultimately who gets to succeed? In today's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Lauren Neal, chartered engineer, chartered project professional, and founder of Valued at Work. And she's also written a book of the same name. Lauren has spent nearly two decades delivering complex projects in the energy sector. And alongside that, she's experienced both blatant and subtle biases in the workplace, from being set up to fail earlier in her career to being told that she was there to tick a diversity box. But what's powerful about Lauren's story isn't just what she's experienced, it's what she's come to understand that this isn't simply about individuals, it's about systems, leadership, and how performance really works. So today we're going to be exploring what bias actually looks like in practice, why this isn't a confidence issue, and what leaders and women themselves can do to create meaningful change. Lauren, thank you so much for joining me. It's a delight to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Oh, I'm happy to be here too. I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah. So I know that when we had our preparation call, we talked a lot about your experiences and you've had some very, very clearly uh biased experiences in your in your time. But can you take us right back to the beginning of your career when you started to realize something wasn't quite right?

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yes, sure. So and by way of background, I mean, I was born in Aberdeen. Um I really enjoyed maths and computing at school, and I went and studied electronic and electrical engineering, had a master's in that, started work at a company doing um application software development. And then after a few years, I switched to a different company, and that's where this story comes from. So I started working there and was working with this, with this um, I'm gonna call him him a young man. He was a little bit older than me, but not that many years. And it was funny because it wasn't an older person that said this to me, it was him. He said to me that women belong in the home and in the kitchen. And I remember sort of laughing that off when he said it. And to give you the dynamics, there was him, there was me, and he was also working really closely with a much older and senior engineer there, also male. And honestly, we didn't really get on along that well, not just because of that comment, but there were there were other comments here and there. And it I wouldn't say there was friction, but it wasn't like we would hang out. And there was this one event where I was asked to meet with one of the clients, and it it's just coincidence that it happened to be someone I know because he used to work with me at the initial company I was at. And I wasn't given any preparation, nothing at all. And when I met with him, met with the client, his name was Steve. Steve said to me, said, Lauren, you look really bad here because you haven't been given any of the information. This is not what I expect of a company that I'm paying to deliver a service here. And then he said to me, Lauren, go back and tell them that I shouted at you. And also never let anyone put you in this position again, because that can be really bad for your career. So I went back and I wrote an email to capture what Steve had told me and he how disappointed he was and how we need to work together as a team. Fast forward two weeks, they terminated my contract.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Wow, so you got the brunt of them not necessarily being organized, and that's the example of when you were set up to fail, really.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Absolutely. Um, and I don't know if part of it was because, again, I am quite outspoken. Um, was it because I didn't blend in with them? They were two very introverted men, again, had a very interesting view of women in the workplace. And I mean, for me, it it was devastating for me to be to have your contract terminated. I'd been there nine months. I was told, because I spoke with a legal professional, and he said to me I would have a great case for constructive dismissal, except the law didn't protect me because I hadn't been there over a year. And they didn't use the words to say they were firing me or they were terminating my contract because I was a woman. Otherwise, that would have been something. They just said it's just not working out.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Okay. So a really shocking experience and a confidence sapping experience, I should imagine, going through that. Uh I mean, you were quite young, weren't you? Only three years out of university at that time.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yeah, I was I was 26 and escorted off the premises with uh my stuff in a box.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Wow, really shocking. And looking back now, with obviously, you know, we're a long time down the line from those days, but looking back now with what with your insight and understanding that you have now, how do you view that experience differently now?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I mean, when I look at it, I do see, I mean, one, it makes great content to talk about in stories. Um I honestly believe this happens a lot. Uh, I didn't speak about this for a very long time because I was embarrassed. Um, you know, no one gets fired and you know is happy about it. And um now I look at it and I share this story with people because to show that it's not it's not necessarily them that's the problem. And I mean, even to this day, uh when I look back on it, I mean I actually still speak to Steve, for example, that it the problem wasn't me there. The the problem was the environment I was in, the people I was around. And now I'm always clear with people, anyone that I mentor and coach, that you know, if if you're feeling like a square peg in a round hole, it's not a bad thing to move away and do try something else.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

And at the time, did you experience that as blatant bias? Or was it did it did it seem more subtle to you because you hadn't got the understanding of bias in those days?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Oh, I I wouldn't have even used the word bias. Like I say, I because they'd said even now when I think about it, there were little things that were said. Oh, you s oversold yourself an interview, oh, we expected more from you than you've come to um deliver. And the worst bit was they were telling some of my former employer this because I heard through people I knew, and so it was like they were really going after my reputation again. Three years into the industry, and these people are going after me. I I didn't think anything around bias. I don't I mean, yes, I'd heard of the word, but nothing like that at this point. I just thought these were just bad people and they weren't being very nice to me.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

And how long ago was this? This was 2009. Right. So we're talking about uh 15 odd years ago. So things have changed since then, and I think bias does get talked about much more. But I think what's also difficult is, I mean, what you described there, I'm like, that is blatant bias. It is so overt, although they may not have been conscious about it even then, even though it was so blatant. But I think what is tricky these days is bias is now a lot more subtle. So it's not always as obvious as that. So, how do you feel it can show up in today's world more in a more subtle way?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

I think people have got more, I'm gonna say smarter about how they discuss certain things in the workplace. I mean, um, so I've had some really real highs in my career, uh, and then I've had some pr pretty lows as well. Uh, I was working on a project, and this was only about five years ago now, so we're getting really recent. And I was uh offshore project manager, was my title, and then I was moved out of my role after being in the role for about six weeks. And when I asked the the project general manager in charge, you know, what was it that I could have done, should have done in that time he said, no, Lauren, we just need someone who's a bit more seasoned. And I thought, okay. And then he he didn't re- I could tell he didn't really want to answer me because he got a bit squirmy. And so, and I, you know, I wasn't in a position of confidence at that point. I've just been moved out of role, didn't know what my role was going to be. They replaced me with a straight white man, which I'll just throw in there. And then so instead I spoke to the deputy um project general manager, and he said to me, Lauren, the thing is the other project managers just don't see you as part of their tribe because you don't go drinking with them, you don't swear a lot. When when the project general manager asks you to do something, you do it, you don't push back and swear at him. So, you know, maybe project management's not for you. Maybe you should try something else like finance.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

And in listening to you share that, what you're talking about is all about personality and nothing to do with the skills and capabilities to do the job. Absolutely. You could have been by far the strongest project manager skills and capability-wise, but because you didn't swear, because you didn't go down the pub, you didn't fit in.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Absolutely. And it it was even worse when I then spoke to my line manager um about the whole situation. And he said, Lauren, are you old enough to be a project manager? And so I told him because I I think I was what, 37 at the time, and he said, Oh, it's you know, you just look young, but you need to be more angry at work and let people know when you're being serious. And I I said to him, uh, women can't be angry in in this industry. And he went, Oh, oh, okay. So yeah, I it was really, it was a really low time in my career because these conversations took place over a couple of weeks, and then literally you just again you feel like you've done something wrong.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

I can totally get that, and I think that you know, even the research these days says that if women do behave assertively, they're considered aggressive, they're not considered a leader, they're considered bossy. So, this whole thing of you know, it's not okay for women to be aggressive at work, it doesn't, it doesn't wash you, actually lose the amount of influence that you have when you behave in a more aggressive way, and yet he's advising you to do that. I mean, what do you think allows behaviour like this, whether it's blatant or subtle, to continue without any consequences in the organizations that would say they value inclusion?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

I mean, for for me, it's I think it's because people don't speak up about it. Or what I should say is the right people don't speak up about it. And who are the right people? So when so for example, when I was in those positions, both of those stories, it doesn't really matter which one, me speaking up about it becomes annoying. It becomes like a buzzing sound in someone's ear and they just want to swap me away. Um, I've I've seen that. When it is the most senior man in the room that says something, people pay attention. And it's wrong, and I'm not at any point endorsing that that's how it should be, but that's just how it is today. That what I've seen. If you get a very senior person, and it helps when they're a man, because when it's a woman, you still get the eye rolls. And I and I've seen it, I've seen like a vice president woman speaking about it, and then people talk about her afterwards. Um, sometimes men, sometimes women as well. Oh, yeah, of course she's gonna talk about diversity and inclusion and playing the woman card, and and it's not that. Whereas when you get a senior man say something, like, actually that's not right. Were you trying to say something? Sorry, were you trying to get in there? It makes the world of difference.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

So it's all about the fact it's to do with your gender, is what you're saying directly there, and that just that women have a much harder time.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Until I don't know how long it's going to take, but until these cultures change in the workplace, that bias is there. And I I've seen it even graduates coming in, they've been there maybe three, four years, and I remember one in particular, and it it it was a a male graduate. He then started over talking me in a meeting, and I'm like, whoa! And I felt like saying, Hang on, junior. You wanted to pull rank on him. I and I I didn't, I sort of laughed about it, and then I said to him afterwards, I said, You might want to be more mindful of who's in the room and when you speak and when it's actually better to listen to other perspectives. Because I knew him, so I could speak to him, but I just thought for someone I even know to then just keep trying to argue with me in front of a group and then also trying to kind of show he's all that, you're thinking, wow, it it happens even very early in careers, people are just getting influenced.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, and what I'm hearing is how deep-rooted it is, because it is about the culture, and the whole challenge of culture is when we're in it, we find it very hard to see it. We're not, it's like it's not conscious to us. Yeah, so that's why building that awareness of ourselves as leaders and our own biases, but also starting to build the awareness of what goes on around here and what are some of the subtle messages that keep getting passed around, and what other things are we noticing about what happens around here that's acceptable or not acceptable?

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Absolutely. I mean, I've I've seen in you know, it's probably like a year or two old now when companies started getting rid of their DENI departments and and so on, and there was a lot in the news all over LinkedIn about it. I was honestly in about two minds on that, because for me, diversity and inclusion is I mean, coming from an oiling of the gas background, safety is everyone's responsibility. For me, DENI is everybody, every single person. And it doesn't matter if you're junior or senior, you can make space for someone, and I'm an absolute firm believer in that. So when people are taking away an or a department that's focused purely on DENI, I'm kind of like it might be okay, but only under the assumption that the work is somewhere else, and for me, it's all around leadership. How are we developing these leaders in the company with the right skill sets?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

So it's not necessarily the responsibility of a DNI DEI department, it's responsibility of all the leaders, starting at the very top in terms of how they're showing up, how they understand themselves and their biases, and then how they're treating other people.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And ultimately that's what creates the culture.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, and and I've seen it, I've seen some great leaders, and people absolutely flock to follow them. And then I've seen ones who were maybe very good technically promoted into a people leader role. And I think it's a lose-lose because the team aren't happy about it. The person in there used to be, you know, really getting really great feedback about how they perform technically, but they've never been taught how to lead people, and that I have I see all too often. The I think they called it the accidental leader.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

And I think there's something there about assumptions, which we also talked about before around assumptions that because you're good technically, you're gonna be a good leader, which does not marry up at all because they're actually quite distinctive, different skill sets. Some people are brilliant technically and and you know, be develop their technical expertise. Does not mean they can communicate or build relationships and do the things that you need from a leader.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Absolutely. I mean, I've seen discipline leaders, for example, where they have direct reports, but they still spend I'm gonna say the majority of their time focused on right, what can I do to make me look good? As opposed to saying, hang on, I'm a people leader. When they look good, I look good. And it it's so funny because I've I've seen it and I continue to see it, and I bet people listening to us have seen it. That when you get leaders who are focused too much on how they are perceived and not enough on supporting their team to make their team look good, again, it it's another lose-lose scenario.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

And you remind me, and this wasn't in in STEM, in the STEM sector, it was in retail actually, of one organization who actually do hold their leaders to account. Um, when the team aren't performing, it's for the leader to look to themselves, to look at where they are not managing or leading the team effectively, where might some person need further support, where might another person need some coaching or some further development, and then also where might somebody need a performance conversation, but it's about the leader's responsibility to make sure that team performs. It's not just pointing the finger at one person and saying, you actually aren't cut out for this, you know, it's like looking at the whole picture first. That's a really to me, that's a very positive way to support leaders to step up and really lead their teams and be responsible for their teams.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Absolutely. I mean, I am a firm believer that everyone is good at something. And when people are in these organizations and have been for a long time, then you know they've got skills, they've got capability, they've got potential and all of that. And I think I said earlier, it's it's that square peg round hole. And when you get a leader who can see what your strengths are and you know, make sure that you're lined up for a role or a piece of work that lets you play to your strengths, it's the best thing in the world. Absolutely. They feel good. The work and I can tell you now, the work is going to be outstanding.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

That's how to get, you know, get your team to really motivated and enable everyone to play to their strengths.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, great way to achieve high performance. Okay. Well, we've already touched on the whole idea of assumptions and the assumptions that get made around, for example, technical people being great leaders when actually that's not necessarily the case. You've also experienced yourself because of, I mean, that the the manager saying to you you're very young to be so senior when actually you weren't that young, you were 37 at the time. But that's a that's an assumption that often gets directed at women as well. I just wonder, you know, you've shared some powerful assumptions based on your appearance. Could you say a bit more about some of those?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah, I mean, I I think I'm just there was a friend of mine who told me that I'm just a magnet for this type of stuff. And I laughed about it, but I think he's right. Because another one was, I mean, my background, my my mum was from Trinidad, so Indian, um original Indian through the through the family, and my dad, my dad is white, so I am half white, half Indian. And a few years ago, I was speaking on a panel, and there was a post on LinkedIn that showed the panel members, and there was a lady that re shared my post and added her comments to it, so it you know appeared as a separate post and said, What is it with only white looking women being on these types of panels? And it hurt when I looked. I saw it and it it hurt and I thought she's not being very kind. And she actually campaigns for equality, you know, 50-50 men and women, but also she focuses on um ethnically diverse people and she herself she's black, um, wanting to see more black women um center stage and so on. So I I absolutely appreciate and respect that. But I didn't like what she did. And then what I also didn't like was that there were people who I know, colleagues I was working with, who were liking her post, which also didn't feel very nice. Um, I mean, at the time I wrote to the lady who reposted it. I'd never actually met her, but we're we're connections on LinkedIn, or we still are connections on LinkedIn. And she wrote back to me apologizing, and she said, Oh, don't worry that you're not because I had said, What am I not dark enough to meet her tick box? And um she said, No, never worry about that. I'm really sorry how it made you feel. And so of course, she didn't mean it the way that it landed, but it did still land.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

What would you have preferred to have happened in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I mean, I I th I one, I didn't really like the wording of her post that said white looking women. Um if someone's gonna reshare my post with something that is quite um what's the word I'm looking for? Uh quite challenging and provocative, talk to me first. To send me a message saying, like, I want to write this, but it's because you're resharing the original um poster's uh post, then it's it just it feels like it's a professional conduct thing to just say, look, I'm gonna reshare this, I'd like to, and then that would have opened a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yes, because it's actually a really powerful conversation because it does highlight the assumptions that we make of people, it doesn't it? That it's like people having hidden disabilities or whatever, you can make such an assumption about somebody and not really know what's going on for them, just as you make an assumption about looking at somebody and the colour of their skin, you make a decision based on the colour of their skin.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah. And I think I I think where she would have been coming from is bringing live more lived experience into the room. But equally, unless your panel has room for what, eight billion people, there's always going to be people with different experiences. And I think you know, all of our jobs and anyone who's involved in putting a panel together, a conference, and so on, you're looking for those experiences and trying to tease them out. And sometimes it helps you because you can see from someone's physical attributes that actually they'll have this type of experience. Maybe they're visibly um have a disability, maybe they're maybe they don't speak English as their first language, and they've got other barriers. But equally, putting a topic together and asking people to pitch to it, then you're just you're engaging their brains. And I remember a really senior manager saying once that he wants the best brains. He doesn't care what they look like on the outside.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

And that is so true because actually what they look like on the outside is irrelevant. It's what those brains, what that exper those experiences are for people that have formed those brains and help those brains develop. Absolutely. Yeah. And I also think there's much more to people than brains, too. So it's like you might want the brains for one thing, but it's also thinking about, you know, what are those individual people like and how they can contribute in those ways too. Um, okay, let's move on then and think a bit more about your turning point, because there came a time where, you know, it all your experiences had affected your confidence, but you had that moment where you realized that it actually wasn't you. And I think that's a very, very common experience for many women, particularly, or many minorities really, um, who think, oh, it's it's me that's the issue here, when actually it's not, it's the system. So tell us a bit more about your your realization.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

I was speaking to a lady who was maybe, let's call her, maybe three or four years older than me. And we'd again never met in person. And she was asking me about my experiences, and I think I was just having one of those times where I wasn't really feeling that positive about work. And I said, you know, I'm thinking about maybe I need to do some um public speaking training, um, find a way to speak more assertively, and you know, maybe use the right words, because I use a lot of slang when I speak. And she just laughed it off and said, You sound like me like five years ago. And I it it landed, but it didn't really take root, I'll say that comment, because I thought, oh, okay. And then we talked, and then I'm not kidding, it was only a few days later I spoke to a friend of mine, a very good friend, and she was in her 20s, worked for the same organization, and I was venting, and I said, I just feel like it makes no difference if I'm at work or not, because if I wasn't here and the work that I'm doing wasn't happening, nobody would care. And she said to me, Lauren, I feel exactly the same way, and I went, No, because this this young lady was about 25, 26, and she's saying that, and I just thought, wait, when you're in your 20s, you need to get exposure to everything because you don't know what you like, you don't know what you want to do in your career. You might have an idea, but you need exposure to people and things and different, different experiences, so that you can decide actually, I like that, I don't like this, and I want to carve this way in my career. For her to tell me that she felt like they're the same as me, that there was no point in her coming to work or not. I was floored by it, and it just opened my eyes, and then then I remembered my earlier conversation with the other lady, and I went, hang on a second. So someone older than me is feeling like this, and someone younger than me is feeling like this, and we're all saying the same thing that we think it's us, but that doesn't make sense, and I that really lit a fire under me, and I started sharing my stories, and you know, I did it internally, first of all, speaking to other women in in the company, and it was the same, it was the same stories, the same having an idea, saying it at a meeting, and everybody just is silent. You know, they don't argue or disagree with you, they just ignore you. And then 10 minutes later, a man goes and says the same thing, and it's the best idea since sliced bread. So when I started calling these out, and it actually worked with some men as well, men who are a little more quiet, more introverted, especially that example of raising a point in a meeting only to be met with silence. And you know, virtual, you're like, Did you hear me? Am I on mute? And it's none of that. People are just not engaging with you, which to be honest is rude. But also that I mean, maybe it's going back to the earlier point. That's another way bias is showing up. So people think they're being correct by not saying anything, but actually they're exacerbating the issue.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

So at that point, you would need some acknowledgement, actually, some reinforcement that it's a good idea because later on it's going to be thought of as a good idea. I mean, that's where I get caught up with how much of this is conscious and unconscious. I suspect a lot of it is just unconscious. We're all kind of strapped into this is how we do things. So we don't acknowledge women, but we do acknowledge men in that meeting.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

I think there is a bit of that. Like I said, I've been fortunate to work with some fantastic leaders. Um this leader that I worked with only two years ago, he was so good. Um, literally, the minute I just took a breath to say something, he said, Lauren, you were trying to say something. And because he would scan the room. And men, women, you know, I was quite junior for the for the room I was in.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

So I also want to take a snapshot of that because that is a fantastic example of allyship in action from a male perspective. So if any men are listening to this conversation and you're wondering how can I support my women colleagues more, take that example that Lauren's just shared of that manager who scanned the room, and if he saw Lauren even trying to speak, he gave her the chance to do it. That is great, great role modelling.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

And he was like I say, he was the most senior person in the room. So it and I I've seen it time and time again that when someone with that gravitas, I'm gonna say, because it doesn't need to be the most senior person in the room, but someone who's got that followership, that gravitas, who can just, you know, quiet the room to let a voice come in. It's I absolutely understated. I think that is such a skill that people can, I think it is just not using that skill enough.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

And it makes such a difference in terms of helping you feel included, but also confident to speak up and just say what you need to say.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Absolutely. Um there was another manager I used to work for a long time ago, and I remember after every meeting or big conference, and that he'd just take two of us aside, and he was probably nearing retirement age, and he'd be speaking to the two of us who were in our twenties, and he would say, Right, who didn't speak in that meeting? Why didn't they speak? And he went, Okay, I'll try and speak to them afterwards and make sure. Because he would just check and then he'd say, What did we miss? What did we forget? And like I say, I've met some great leaders who had such great qualities, but I have met so many more who never asked the question, What did I miss?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

It's almost like so many are sleepwalking, you know. And is it is it to do with STEM in particular that to be to work in STEM, you need to be intellectually really bright. Is it to do more with that? Or is it to do with I don't know what it's to do with, but it's just it seems to be happening more in STEM than it does in other industries.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

I think in STEM in particular, because it is very male-dominated, uh I see that quite a lot. Uh I don't think it's just a gender thing, though, because what I spent five and a half years in Azerbaijan and I saw the dynamics when you had nationals and expats. And you could also see it there. So now I talk about the majority. And yes, most of the time it will be straight white men from the Western world with English as their first language without disabilities, etc. Um, but every now and then you'll see someone like maybe it's because they're short or they're made fun of or just lack confidence in that, that means that they're not the majority. And I encounter these men who have very similar experiences of being excluded, of being joked about, laughed at in the office. It's like you're at school again. But I I've seen it play out, and you kind of want to cringe a bit when you see senior managers talking about another manager and they're laughing just like in the schoolyard. And I remember looking at it and I just thought, wow, you guys are just grown-up bullies.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Oh well, well observed. And who do you think benefits from framing all of this around the whole confidence issue rather than a systems issue? Because so often it's about, oh, women just aren't as confident, which is actually not true at all. I know plenty of very confident women, and I also know men who lack confidence too. So who benefits from framing it as a confidence issue rather than a systems issue? And what does that allow organisations to avoid taking responsibility for? So two questions there, Lauren.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

I mean, for me, uh the one who benefits, the status quo benefits, keeping things exactly the same and keeping those in power in power. Uh, and I'm not talking on the big scale, I'm I'm talking about who's the team leader, who's the team manager, who's next in line to become a vice president, senior manager, so on.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Keeping them in power and keeping them from having to look at themselves as well and take responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yep. They're they're they're deflecting any issues. Um, whether that's like we talked about, whether it's their people skills, their leadership skills, um, or even just really understanding what's going on. I think their egos are also something that come into play a lot here. Because, like I say, it takes a lot of humility, which I think is a great um a great attribute for someone to have to say, what did I miss? What did we get wrong? How can I do this better? But to do that, you need to keep your ego in check.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Absolutely, and yeah, you've got to go beyond your ego to do that really, and stop trying to always look good and be the best.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Or cover up for yourself in whatever shape or form. Yes, okay, great. Well, let's have a look now at um we're moving really deeper into STEM, really. So in STEM, women are still under underrepresented. I think you said 24% of people working in STEM are women. So there's still less than yeah, still less than a quarter of the workforce. Um, how do you think that dynamic gets so amplified in STEM?

SPEAKER_01 36:28

I mean, there there's there's big discussion about um pipelines and we can't find the right women to come into the company, or you you hear them say, oh well, we recruit at 50-50 male-female, and then it's just natural attrition that they go. And I think no, that's garbage. It's not that. Where there's and there's plenty of studies on this, that it's that first step up to management. There is what do we call it, the leaky pipeline, the broken rung. Men get that um first manager or position role, women are not getting that. Uh, there's a lot of, you know, I'm gonna call it noise, where that, oh, it's because women leave the workforce to have children, and then that sets them back. No, that's not true. Um, that was debunked. Um, there's a lovelace report that was released end of last year, which also shows a data in this. It it's not it's nothing to do with that. Again, it's bias, it's around I the way I describe it is I'm like you, so you like me, or I'm not like you and therefore you don't like me. And make it as simple as that in how people think. If they see a young, up-and-coming person who is just like them, maybe they went to the same school, maybe they've got the same interests, maybe they support the same football team, they're gonna back them. Um, maybe they play golf together, maybe they go to the pub together, um, but they have that sense of connection that then the senior person's going to support them. And then managerial role comes along, stretch assignment, opportunities. Hey, put this person in there. So, what I start talking about then is actually so how do how do what how does everybody else tap into that?

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Well, you talk about the club that no one admits they're in. I'd love to explore that a bit more because I think that's connected to this. Who's in the club? I'm presuming it's men.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

I always describe it as it's I'm making an assumption here. It's it's like when you're at school and you can see the cool kids.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

So much is still alive in corporate today. I am I'm not kidding, that you can see them and you're not in that club.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

And who decides you should be admitted or be be a member of that club?

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Oh, it will always be the most senior man. Like, for for example, if I was to describe a team or a group of people that um that I know, there would be a vice president and he used to go golfing with maybe two or three of his direct reports. And whenever they were together, I used to see them save seats for each other at town halls. So they were buddies, and then you'd see someone further down who used to just I'm gonna call him a brown noser. I was thinking, what's it what's an appropriate term I could use? But someone who's just sucking up and always saying the right things, um, echoing what they've already said. Um we all know someone who does that. And you'd see this group form, and then you'd get sort of like the wannabes who are around who sometimes they'll go for golf, always go sometimes. Um there'd be a guy who would just grab one of the senior men a coffee each time. He was like, Oh, I was just getting a coffee, I thought I'd get you one too. The group I'm describing in my experience, all men, all white, all white men. Um, actually, all white men from the UK, if I'm being a little a little more specific. And when a woman who was a vice president as well, was there, they were very polite. But she wasn't brought, she wasn't welcomed into the club. Um, she had ch young children, uh, so she wasn't going out in the evenings or anything like that. But you could just see it that there was nothing like if you were transcribing any meeting, you'd never see anything, they weren't interrupting her or anything. But before meeting chat, after meeting chat, and that she was never in that. And and as somebody like externally observing it, you could see it.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

So she was there because of her status, really.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah, she was she was there, and again, the person who put her in that role was that senior man. And I mean, maybe he was helping her, he got her a vice president role, obviously, pay bump, responsibility, and so on. But is it enough when you're still not welcomed into the crowd? Even though there were people more junior than her who were in that club, but not her.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

So this kind of um aligns with what we were saying earlier about the more subtle types of bias that go on, you know, the in-crowds and the out crowds and the cliques and things that are going on there. Um, there's a huge cost here to organizational performance. I mean, what do you think the real cost is of um having cliques and clubs like this?

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Well, I I had read one study that said for someone in STEM leaving the organization, it can cost up to 200% of their salary to replace them. Not to mention the time it will take. And the more experienced they are, then the more knowledge they're going to take with them. And then people start relearning old lessons. Because I've maybe a bit controversial, but I have yet to find an organization that is very good at knowledge management and sharing their lessons from project to project, which means if you don't if the people who learned it have left the organization, the knowledge has gone with it. And that can be very costly, especially you know, if you're working offshore, sub-sea. Um these issues can go into the millions very, very easily.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Yes. Huge, huge costs then, as well as the whole thing that, you know, demonstrably in all the research, those organizations that are more inclusive, that have a higher ratio of men, women, whatever gender, um as leaders within the organization are seen to be more successful. So they're losing out in terms of the amount of spend and costs they're having to pay out on, but also in their ability to generate as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Yep. We've always said that um, you know, diverse teams do outperform non-diverse teams. I I'd like to think everybody knows that by now. But knowing it and then implementing it are probably two different things.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Very much so. And I think also it's that this is how strong the bias is. It's the pull. And often it's an invisible pull that we're just because you know that this is where we come to leadership responsibility. So for leaders listening today, I think what would be a great question to ask is what's the first thing they need to understand that they may be currently missing?

SPEAKER_01 43:50

I think they need to listen to people around them who are not uh their friends, not the ones who are always going to agree with them. And we used to call them diagonal slices, but have a cross-section of people who are different to them.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Give them some feedback. So peer review from people who aren't necessarily in their in-club.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Not enough mi not enough people do 360 reviews. And the ones who do tend to get the ones that they know they're going their safe bets. So okay, I'll ask my friends to give me feedback and then I'll show my manager and it will say I'm really great. But you don't learn that way.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Very important and very empowering to get that level of feedback, that quality of feedback. There's also something for me around leaders being very, very mindful of what they're actually saying they value and how much their behavior ties up with what so they can say, Oh yes, we're very inclusive in this organization. Oh, but I'm now off to the pub with all my mates. You know, it's like being very mindful that actually that behavior doesn't tally with what you're saying of value here as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

I I've seen that. Um I oh I remember speaking to the senior senior manager once, and I said to him that what I was observing in the organization was people would work together on a project, and then it would be the same people on the next project, and the same people on the next project. And he said to me, I don't know what you're talking about, I've never seen that. And I felt really gaslit at the time. And I remember speaking to my mentor who happened to know the individual I was talking about and his boss, and he said, Yeah, that's the reason he's been following him around for the last 20 years, and started naming the projects they'd been on together every single time. Group, that group, and then that group, and then that group. And yes, you'll maybe get 10, 50, 10 to 20% of people that change out, but the rest of the time it's the same project team. And they they would argue, well, because we know and trust each other, we know each other's strengths, therefore we're more powerful this way. But then it's gonna be, you know, this is the way we've always done it. Why would we change? And you get groupthink, and there's so many reasons why you shouldn't do that, but yet it it seems to happen time and time again.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Yes, it does. So, what do you think is one practical thing a leader can do that would make a meaningful difference in this space?

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Speaking up more uh as the leader, and even something very simple, end of a team meeting before everybody leaves, say how did that meeting go from an inclusion perspective? Uh and ask the room and actually go around each person and get their perspective. I think something like that, really easy, low cost, to just is there something that the room is not seeing, but someone in it is seeing it seeing and experiencing as well, because it's so much about the experience, too, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

So let's also consider then because um, you know, there'll be a lot of women listening to this podcast today. For women navigating this right now, you know, you've been a woman who's navigated it firsthand. How do you stop these experiences from defining you?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

I think being really clear on knowing your skills and capability, like there's nothing wrong with you knowing that you are talented, that you have potential, that you are really good at certain things. It doesn't need to be everything. I'm gonna put that in there. You no one needs to be 100% everything. But knowing yourself and your value is the most important. Don't let that imposter monster get in your ear. Um and if you know that, you know these experiences are happening because of the culture and environment that you are in, it isn't because of you.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

So to not take it so personally, to recognize it's part of the bigger system and culture you're part of.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yep. And like I said, I feel like I spent too long until I started asking other women about their experiences and share and being vulnerable and sharing my own. Uh, if I had done that sooner, I probably wouldn't have carried this baggage for for as long to say actually I need to be better at this, and I need to be better at that, and I need to do this, and oh, they've got a head to this, so I need to be even better.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

So maybe checking in with female colleagues as well, and also looking for allies.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Oh, yes, um, those who are more senior and junior, don't don't ignore the junior ones because, like I said, it was a person more junior than me by at least 10 years that really opened my eyes that I thought, hold on, I'm just in this conveyor belt of experience now, and now this young lady who is excellent is experiencing the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

So, if there's one message you'd want to leave with our listeners today, men or women, what would it be? Oh, that's a big question.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Um, one message there is always more going on than you know about. Always, you know, approach things with curiosity and to understand, not to necessarily chime in and so be mindful of your own assumptions and your own judgments too.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Yes, yes. Lauren, thank you so so much for today. And I might add to our listeners that Lauren's book, Valued at Work, has got so many insightful stories in it and also fantastic um amount of tips, both for women themselves, but also for the organisations they're working within. So do do check that out. Um, how can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 49:44

LinkedIn is probably the best one. Um, I'm on there regularly. Um, so absolutely please connect with me on LinkedIn, give me a follow or a connection, or just drop me a line and I'll I'll reply. Okay, Lauren, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you very much. I've enjoyed this.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.