S3 Ep11: - Divorce, Work and the Hidden Cost for Women with Tamara Glanvill

What happens at work when life falls apart at home?

We talk openly about maternity, menopause, wellbeing and bereavement, but one major life transition remains largely invisible in many workplaces: divorce.

In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, I’m joined by family lawyer and partner at Taylor Walton Solicitors, Tamara Glanvill, who has spent more than 30 years helping people navigate separation, divorce and complex family transitions.

Together we explore:

•  Why divorce impacts far more than finances and legal arrangements 
•  The hidden effect on confidence, identity and wellbeing 
•  How divorce can expose inequalities around childcare, careers and the mental load 
•  Why women often face a steeper financial recovery after separation 
•  What employers can do to support people through major life transitions 
•  Tamara's own leadership journey as the youngest and only female partner in her firm 

This is a thoughtful conversation about leadership, communication, resilience and the realities many people are navigating behind the scenes while still showing up at work every day.

Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamara-glanvill-00327718/

Visit Taylor Walton's website - https://taylorwalton.co.uk/

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 ✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to SheLeads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory, and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the She Lee's Collective Podcast. What happens at work when life falls apart at home? We talk a lot about supporting people through maternity, through menopause, grief, and well-being. But there is another life event that touches huge numbers of people and can affect confidence, finances, performance, parenting, identity, and the mental load. And yet we rarely discuss the impact of it in the workplace. And that is divorce. Today I'm joined by Tamara Glanville, a partner in the family department at Taylor Walton Solicitors, who has specialised exclusively in family law throughout her 30-year career. Tamara is a recommended lawyer in Legal 500 for both 2024 and 2025, and advises on all aspects of marriage, divorce, and separation, including child arrangements and complex financial settlements. What stands out for me is not only Tamara's expertise, but her philosophy. She believes there is no one size fits all. Her approach is tailored and solutions focused, helping her clients navigate their options through mediation, negotiation, arbitration, and where needed, court proceedings. But this conversation goes beyond legal process. Tamara has also lived her own leadership journey. She was offered a partnership whilst pregnant. She was also the youngest and only female partner in her first firm. And Tamara navigated leadership and motherhood at a time when flexibility and support looked very different. And today she speaks positively about working in an organization that genuinely understands people and culture. So in this conversation, we're going to actually cover three things Tamara's leadership journey and what shaped her, what divorce really does to people at work, especially women, and what organizations can learn about supporting people through major life transitions. Tamara, a very warm welcome to this podcast. Oh, thank you, Mary. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, it's great to have you here, and I'm so grateful that you've given up the time. So let's start straight away, though, because you have a really fascinating career journey yourself, which I think is worth talking about and what we're going to kick off with. Tell me more about how you started out in law and what attracted you towards family law.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Um, it was a tale of two parts, really. So um in days gone by when there were only three television channels, um, my sister and I used to watch Crown Court a lot, and we were both very, very taken by the possibility of arguing for a living. I don't know what it was about us as sisters.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Did you argue with each other?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Oh, yes. Um, so we so I became, in fact, both of us became lawyers. Um, I became a solicitor and she became a barrister, but I was determined from that point on that I was going to be a lawyer. And I stuck the course really, notwithstanding that lots of people told me that I wasn't good enough, I wasn't clever enough. Um it was a very, very lovely tutor of mine in sixth form when I didn't get a place at uh university to study law, who just said, Tomorrow, if you want to study law, choose your university, choose another course because there's a very, very high dropout rate in law, it's quite hard, and you'll probably be able to switch. And those are in days that our le our um university education was was free to us. Um so I went off to Leeds and started studying politics and economics. And three weeks later I was on the law course and carried on from there. So I had a few hurdles that I had to jump along the way, but uh I stayed the course.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Thank goodness for that tutor giving you that piece of advice. Indeed. Yeah, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

The other piece of advice was uh that Dio Straits was a great band. So he he's great on both count both counts.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Very good, very good. So you studied law uh and you were very committed to studying law from a very young age. I I'm amazed by the the influence of TV and and media even in those days. But that that's where you that's where you went. It was your passion. What drew you towards family law?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Well, family law wasn't my first choice, actually. I was determined that I wasn't going to be another woman doing family law, and I thought I was going to be a company commercial lawyer. But at the time that I qualified, there were two roles available. One of them was in the criminal department and one was in the family department. And so I thought, well, I'll start in the family department. I can always swap over. But it just became very evident quite early on that I'd found my place or it had found me. My parents had had a divorce when I'd been about 11, and they'd had a really, really good divorce. And I think I probably took a bit of that into what I was seeing, even at a very junior level, and thinking there is a better way. It doesn't all have to be through courts and litigation. And gradually, over the period of time that I've been qualified, that is very, very much what leads most family lawyers is let's find a way to resolve these issues out of court.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

I love that. So it's not not about getting into the drama and going to court, it's about how can we resolve it around the table, which is great. Indeed. So at one point, you were also the youngest partner and the only female partner in your firm. What was that experience like? I mean, did you feel like you were treated differently at all, or how how did it work for you?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

It was it was really difficult, actually. I'm not going to pretend it wasn't. It turned out fine, but at the time I found it very, very difficult. So I'd, I mean, it's a it's the ambition of every young lawyer to become a partner. It's what we seek to achieve. And I'd moved firms due to childcare commitments in a long commute. At the time I had two children, and at the time I had to be in the office five days a week, as was the way. And I hadn't been there very long. I'd been there probably only about a year when I discovered I was pregnant with my lovely third child, um, and was terrified about telling the powers that be. But they were incredibly forward-thinking. So I can remember one of the partners, they were all men, pulling me to one side and saying, um, when he they'd offered me partnership, and I was surprised, saying, Um, you will come to learn tomorrow that six months is really not a very long time in business. And it was really helpful to hear that because he was looking at me for the long term. And it wasn't just a short-term decision, it was a long-term plan. It was a long-term strategy. And that stayed with me.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

That what an enlightened way of looking at the fact that you're there. And in terms, I should imagine your commitment and engagement is huge on the back of that.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

I think it really, really helped me be in the room with six other much older men, actually. So I was 15 years their the youngest junior. And so I I had an obviously a significant imposter syndrome, but just having him having said that made me think they they really see me as a long-term part of this. But it was a requirement of being a lawyer and becoming a partner that I had to attend a leadership course. I could choose the course. Um, and I decided deliberately not to just go on a leadership course for lawyers. And I chose a course run by a lady called Pauline Stewart, um, called Walking with Wolves, as in the alpha female pack mentality. And so there were loads of women, it was it was all women, and they they were from a variety of companies, big and small. And we had a three-day course, which was just inspiring across so many levels, and I still carry so much of the learning from that with me. But one of the main points is that I didn't have to be uh a sort of chest thumping alpha male in order to be an effective leader. And so they took us to see these wolves, and the alpha female, who was leader of the pack, sat slightly higher than all of the other wolves and would give a very quiet nod before, you know, they would all look to her before they ate, before they left an area, etc. And they would she would just give a very quiet nod. So there was sort of none of this sort of angst. There was no shouting, there was no, it was very, very quiet authority. And I loved it as a concept. And so I really have taken that with me. And I think that after that, around the board table, if things were getting heated, I didn't feel I had to join the heat. And I think one of the other things it I I did learn from that was that you know, you there are different styles of leadership, and you need to find the style that suits you, and and then you can be authentic, and then you can do it. And trying to be something that you're not over a long career eventually either becomes exhausting or you'll be found out.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

So real a real lesson in authenticity. It was but but also in m in managing your ego and not letting your ego get carried away either, because I think the chest thumping is a lot of bravado and a lot of ego, yeah, really, and you didn't want to buy into that.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

I just knew I just knew I couldn't do it. I knew that I wouldn't be able to do that. So I had to find a way that that I felt comfortable with, but I also had confidence in. And so one of the things that I learned is that you know, there was a real power to um being quiet, and there was a real power to mediation and to be looking for visual clues and where people were agreed. And I've carried this through actually in my work as well. It wasn't just around the boardroom table, but quite often people stop hearing what everybody's saying. They're all trying to talk so loudly and so authoritatively and and wanting to be proved right, and not actually listening to where there is agreement. And so I think that stood me in good stead for the work that I went on to do as a family lawyer on a collaborative level, where we would sit in a room and we would need to work with the clients to find a solution that was deliberately out of court, but was difficult because we had to have difficult conversations and we had to listen really carefully.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Absolutely, listening is such an underestimated skill when it comes to leadership, and yet it is so profoundly important.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

It is, and and I did do another course once where we had to actually test ourselves, we had to put ourselves in a mock situation with fighting people, fighting couples, and we had to not say anything for a minute, and I I think it was probably one of the most difficult things I ever did. Um, but it was a real lesson in listening, um, in terms of you don't have to fill all the silences. Um, you learn a lot more by leaving those silences exposed because somebody else will fill them and you'll probably learn a lot more. So, yeah, that there's been some good learning about silence along the way and listening.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Very good. So you talked about because you're a working parent and and you had three young children as you were navigating your career, and you've talked about the expectations around evening meetings and the practical realities of childcare. What was one of the moments that made you realise workplaces aren't actually designed for women?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Well, I think I think that those were it really. It was the it was because I was the only woman and I was the only person there with day-to-day childcare responsibilities, there would be meetings suddenly put in the diary for six o'clock in the evening or 5.30 in the evening. And I had had to very, very carefully orchestrate all of my childcare. I think at the time I had three children in three different schools. I had one in nursery, one in lower school, and one in middle school. And I had to get to three different places and I had to orchestrate that. It was a really, really regimented routine. So somebody just saying we're meeting today at 4.45, knowing that the meeting would go on well over and well beyond childcare pickup meant having to liaise about three different pickups with three different people because not everybody could could do it. Um, and it just became impossible. It was just really, really, really difficult and so stressful. You know, it was probably the biggest stress of being a working partner in a law firm was actually the childcare management. And people not respecting or not understanding what it meant if you just suddenly dropped that onto me was then probably one of the moments that I I realized I couldn't sustain it, which was enormously disappointing. You know, I knew that I was a a a role model to so many other women lawyers in my in my firm, and I didn't want to say I can't do this. I I just really didn't want to say it. Um, but I think the moment came when one of my daughters wanted to to become, wanted to start rowing. And there was an opportunity at school, but it meant that I had to be somewhere that I just couldn't be on a regular basis. And my husband and I just had sat down and had a conversation about it. We just thought we'd our children aren't going to get the opportunities that they can have. They're very fortunate to have if we don't make some allowances for what we want. And so that was the moment really. I just thought, she's my oldest. This is going to happen again and again. I need to find a way of working flexibly so that they do come first. And that's why I gave up my first partnership, is so that I could be available to my children on a more flexible basis.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And what did you do on the back of that? What was your next role that supported you to be more flexible?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So I became a consultant solicitor uh with a fabulous firm of, I think there were 23 of us, who all operated under an umbrella firm. But we were effectively self-employed, and so we could do as much or as little as we work as we wanted to, as long as we met our clients' needs, and obviously all of the other business needs that and and regulatory needs, etc., of the business. But it because I was self-employed, I could go to Sports Day, I could um drop off a P bag that had been forgotten, I could attend a concert, and I could take my daughter to rowing, um, and the various other things that came beyond that. So the flexibility was just extraordinary. And and it was a fabulous period of my working career, although very, very different to partnership, because I was only responsible for myself.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I think it's a real tension though for young women these days, coming up through the ranks and and wanting to get into leadership, maybe partnership, leadership in their own company, and yet then the tension between that and having a family. I mean, what do you still see happening? Do you do you think for women between ambition and responsibility, that the women end up taking the responsibility rather than it being shared between men and women? Because there are two parents in the family.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yes, I I do think it's still the load falls heavily on women, just through the I I guess I have a a window into lives that many people don't have as a divorce lawyer. I I see how roles are shared, childcare responsibilities and other domestic roles are shared, and all the planning and the logistics. I think in the workplace, things have improved. Um, and I think most workplaces now do offer a much more flexible culture. I think that came perhaps off the back to a degree of COVID and people working from home and demonstrating to employers that you could be a productive uh member of the workforce whilst working from home, because that frees up for many people a lot of time. The commute time is significant. And so if I could just go back to my first job, you know, I left my job because I couldn't do the commute and get to nursery on time. So I think that flexibility is improved. And I think women are better at asking for what they need. I think there was a long time that we didn't want to ruffle any feathers. It was almost, you know, we're just so grateful to be at the table, so to speak, that we just didn't want to make any noise about it. Um and so we struggled under an increasing burden of meeting everybody's needs, probably bar our own. Um although, you know, we're the probably the generation that people might say had had it all. We had a career, we had a we have a career, we have our family. Um, but it does come with a load. It really, really does come with a load. But I think it is improving. I think men are taking more share of um the childcare load, I think, definitely. Um, and I think that again is born out of a bit of COVID, where men have also started working from home a bit more and appreciating what day-to-day childcare whilst working looks like, whereas perhaps it was a bit invisible before if they were out nine to five Monday to Friday. I'm talking very generally here, but you didn't necessarily see all of the back and forth and the demands.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

So things are definitely improving, although women are still taking the majority of it, but there the the the shift seems to be in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

It is, and I think I also see that just in my job as a lawyer. So one of the bits of work that I do is around child care and child arrangements where couples divorce. And it's much, much more likely these days than before for a dad to say, I want to have a share of the day-to-day care of the children. I don't want to be a weekend dad. I don't want to just be there for holidays and high days. I I want to do their homework with them, I want to be at the school gate, I want to meet their friends. And so I think that dads are stepping up.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

That's encouraging. That's really encouraging to hear. It is. It is. Okay. Well, we are going to move on now to talk a bit more about divorce, women, and the workplace generally, because that's that's your area of focus, and that's one of the reasons I invited you here today. So, Tamara, you say that there is no one size fits all when it comes to divorce. How can people's experiences of divorce be? And what determines whether someone copes or struggles through the process?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

It's such a personal uh journey for everybody. Um, it is affected by so many external and internal factors, um, and it's very, very hard to predict how any individual will cope. I think sometimes the the reason for the divorce has a significant impact. And although, as lawyers and the court, as far as the court's concerned, it has no bearing on the outcome, I definitely think it has a bearing on how people cope. I had a client once who had been widowed and then he had remarried and now he was getting divorced. And and I can remember him saying to me, um, being widowed was really hard, but I'm finding being divorced even harder because this time she has chosen to leave me. And so it feels much more personal. Whereas my wife, my first wife didn't die deliberately. Um, and so I think that if if it carries a heavy emotional baggage for an individual, it makes the process of divorcing much more difficult for them. Um, they may be very resistant um to the change, um, they may be very angry, they may be very hurt. Um, so the emotion is usually what changes how well people cope. So they need to have a good friendship group, good friendship network, uh, good family support. Would you advocate for therapy? Totally, totally. I work very closely with a number of divorce therapists actually, who who aren't just there to counsel, but they're also help there to help manage the journey with people to walk alongside. Um, and I think it's really important for people that are emotionally struggling because when the divorce is over and we walk away, I mean, obviously as solicitors, we are deeply, most of us are deeply empathic and very helpful and very kind. But when the divorce process is over, it it's over as far as we're concerned, and the file is closed, and we're let and and our clients are left with a blank page to start their next chapter. And some people are really, really keen to grab that pen and start writing their own. next chapter. And some people are really, really frightened about it. And they've had somebody walking through the journey with them as their divorce lawyer, and then they're on their own. And so divorce coaches can be there throughout the actual legal process, but also helping them to shape what their life looks like beyond that. So I absolutely advocate that sort of support. It has taken a long time for there to be uptake in this country. It's been absolutely standard in America for a long, long time. But I think probably like other types of therapy Brits are a little bit more reluctant to take on that extra support. But those who do I think manage the process really well.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Sounds like the stiff upper lip, the cultural stiff upper lip of what it means to be British and all that sort of thing could get in the way there then.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

I think it can. I think you know people are afraid to show their vulnerability say it out loud because if you say it out loud it's real. And I and I sometimes say you know the most dangerous thing is for people to go through this process, close it all off in a box in their head, not think about it, not learn from it, because it they just take it into their next relationship. And it sits there and they know it's there and they know what's in it but they haven't examined it enough to be able to move on. So I I think um therapy is really really helpful or divorce coach both of those things.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

And do you notice how differently does divorce tend to affect men and women? Is it different?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Again, it's almost impossible to make a a generalization but if I were to make a generalization I think that for women who haven't worked or have worked part-time throughout the marriage by dint of choice, you know, they reach an agreement that if they're going to have a family somebody needs to work part-time or not work um in order to meet the needs of the family. And then suddenly at the point of divorce you've got to create two households out of one fund. And so women are then expected to by the courts increase their earning power. So for some people that means going back into a workforce that they left 10 years ago. And you can quite imagine how somebody that's already been dented by a divorce possibly a change of house possibly a change of town with upset children is then having to say right everybody I'm off to work full time and I have no confidence and what am I going to do and all of my skills are outdated. And so I think for women in that circumstance it's really difficult. I think that that that step back into having to be entirely financially dependent as quickly as possible. I mean the legal test is they have to transition to independence without undue hardship, which sounds so awful when I say it out loud but that's the legal test. So we have to say to lots of our female clients right what are you going to do? How are you going to meet your needs? You can't it, you know, maintenance will only be paid for so long. We have to have a plan. And so I think for women in the workplace when they're feeling that they're most vulnerable who either having to go to their employer and say can I have more hours please and or they're having to find a new job or they're having to start from scratch. So I think that's a really really difficult shift for women.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

So so there's the seeking expanding your job if you've got a job or finding a job if you haven't got one because you're suddenly responsible financially for yourself and and your family putting maintenance to one side of course because there will be that ongoing as well but what are some of the other invisible things that women have to deal with that don't necessarily get talked about that could impact their state of mind and their wellbeing at work? Well obviously you know divorce is is a loss.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

It's a loss of the life that you expect it to to lead. It's a loss of your children's other parent you know you're grieving that that loss um so it it's you're not necessarily going to be in your best state of mind um in the workplace. So I think um employers if they know about it need to be really really on the on the lookout for somebody not coping and try and find some strategies to to support them okay I'm going to come in with another question then.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

So tomorrow as well then so employers have to be on the lookout for that but from a woman's perspective how do how much does it impact their identity um so and their confidence.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Well I think that as I touched on earlier their their confidence is quite often shattered depending on the reasons for the marriage breakdown. Their capacity to deal with very much over and above the significant change in their circumstances is depleted. There's already a heavy domestic load weighted on on women but the they will be taking on additional you know home management roles you know they may be for the first time having to and then quite often this comes with some embarrassment from women you know I'm really embarrassed but I don't know how to I don't know who the mortgage is with I don't know you know who the life insurance is with I don't know how much the utility bills are each month. I've never set up this I've never done that it was always managed by someone else and so I think they're quite often on a very steep financial learning curve as well which I think women are really very very often incredibly capable women in every sense are hugely embarrassed that they gave over that responsibility to somebody else because it is a steep learning curve for people if they've not done it before. And so that's where we can bring in other people to support them in that so you know financial advisors etc to just help manage cash flow and identify what they need and the gap between what they need and what they have and um and then we can help think about how they might get there.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Let's let's move on to talk a bit more about organisations then and what they can do.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Do you think first of all that organisations underestimate the impact of divorce on the workplace without doubt without doubt so I I suspect that it isn't one of those things that people necessarily go to their HR department and say I'm going I'm I'm going through a divorce you know can you just go light with me? Can I have some compassionate leave whatever I I'm not aware that that happens very often partly because women in that circumstance are thinking I can't fall over now because I need this job more than ever. And so I think there is that sort of going to HR with a vulnerability feels very exposing at a time that you don't want to so maybe your team will know maybe your team leader will know and that should be enough but it it isn't in every workplace.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

And not everyone owns up to it do they so what if I don't think if if someone is going through a separation what might colleagues be seeing externally that might mask what's happening internally?

SPEAKER_01 29:42

I expect they might see somebody that is less engaged than they were that is taking part in extracurricular workplace activities less than they were perhaps their productivity has declined and that might just be because they're finding it difficult to focus or they're having interruptions in their workday because they've got upset children or because their lawyer is phoning them or they have they've got deadlines you know throughout the the divorce process itself particularly in relation to finances or child arrangements is very very intense and so people and their lawyers are making demands of people who are trying to hold down a job. I know that I know I do it in the background and so we'll be getting emails from clients at two three o'clock in the morning because that's the only time that they've got time and space to actually think I mean and to think that you can think at two o'clock in the morning is is shocking. But I that that's what I would notice.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

But then I'm also hearing they're not sleeping well and so their wellbeing will may well be in decline.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Without a doubt without a doubt I suspect there are normal wellbeing traits that HR teams and team leaders will will recognise but you know productivity absenteeism perhaps a bit more um people that have always been you know had very very low sick days might be taking more sick holidays um because they don't want to say I just can't get out of bed today because I just feel so sad or I feel so agitated because I've got this deadline that I've got to meet or I've got a court hearing on Tuesday and I didn't want to tell anyone because I don't want anybody I don't want to take my home life to work. So I think that those are probably the telltale signs.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

So what do you think employers could do better to support their people that may be going through this transition?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I think um given that you know almost 50% of marriages end in divorce you know this is a bit like 50% of the workforce will also go through menopause. It's about talking about it it's about saying you're not the only person that's been through this. Not to say you know you're not unique but to say we understand, we have experience you might not know that X in accounts went through a divorce three years ago and we gave her three weeks compassionate leave around her divorce final hearing you might not know that because nobody's going to tell you that it's not going to be on the workplace chatter. So individuals won't know that it's okay to go to their boss to say this is happening I'm really really determined to you know keep showing up to work but if I'm a bit quieter, if I have to take leave that you know without booking it three months in advance as is the norm or whatever the arrangement is, can you just please bear with me? This will change you know that it won't be like this forever but it's a massive transitional shift. So I think workplaces could probably make it clear that they do have a policy or create a policy if they don't have one to say you know we will support people going through all transitions in life be that bereavement, illness, divorce and so that people don't think that they're the first person coming to the table saying I've got this problem and I need some help.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

So a real case of uh empathy first of all and then also flexibility um in supporting that individual and communicating that as an organisation that's how they support people not just going through divorce but all people going through a transition.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Transition exactly you could even if if it was too uncomfortable to have it as a standalone policy it could be added to you know other policies where people um are experiencing significant change. And I think also every employer should have some link to external services that they can direct people to some employers for example will have be able to pass passport people to counselling or a free half an hour call with a divorce expert or you know just you know an IFA you know I just think having people that they can part you know easily signpost people to um would make people think this isn't just me it's happened to my my employers have thought about this my employers care about this.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

It sounds very practical as well being able to offer signposting them to a counselor or a financial advisor that's actually practically going to help people as they navigate it.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

I think lots of employers do also have things like um employee assistance programs. And so that is a way of getting help without necessarily having to take it to HR um so you can almost keep it separate but but you but you've got access to the help. So I think that's an and probably an underused and undervalued resource that employers could quite easily roll out for for their workforce. Again that gives this not just a perception but a reality that you know they do care and that the well-being mental emotional physical of their workforce is really really important to them.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Very good so I'm going to kind of conclude on this because I want us to bring it back out to a more a wider lens because this podcast is all about gender equity. To what extent do you think divorce exposes the inequalities that are already present in relationships? For example who carries the mental load who makes the sacrifices etc I think divorce really really exposes it.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

I think it exposes the disparity between earnings between men and women you know I I it exposes who is doing the majority of the childcare and who is working flexibly in the relationship in order to meet the needs of the family. And yeah I I it is still very much there. It's disappointing but it's getting better and and I think that would be my my note of optimism. I do think it's getting better. It's certainly talked about more isn't it I mean the fact we're talking about it here but you know the whole male-female mental load piece is talked about much much more yeah I think one of the things that really is that we see a lot and where there is real inequitability is in pensions on divorce where you know uh the husband may have worked full-time throughout the marriage generated a really good pension and have the ability and has has reached a status in his career which means that he can continue to earn at a very high level continuing to invest in pensions etc be able to get a very significant mortgage based on his earning capacity whereas a woman will have a lower earning capacity because has worked possibly part-time or taken a career break. So we'll be at a lower level of earning capacity in able to get a mortgage and will have invested over the period of her working life significantly less in a pension and will be able to invest less in a pension going forward because her income threshold will be lower. So the recovery from a divorce is actually very different for both. So although the assets will be divided in a in a way which is deemed fair at the point of divorce, if the couple is say 40 years old at that point, the man will be at a position where he can recover financially from that quite easily the woman will have a much much steeper curve to be able to get back to that position and probably will never meet the earning potential of her husband gosh um serious stuff this isn't it really hearing about this and so much still to change. Well and I think yeah I I think that you know the the the advice that I give to my children and anybody who dare who deems to to to listen to my advice is for women in particular, you know, I've got three daughters and my advice is always carry on working have your financial independence retain your financial independence be able to make choices even if it's difficult in the moment because I think by carrying on and your ability to earn your own salary and be self-sufficient means that you A don't take on all of the load it has to be shared you're going to de facto be unavailable for some of the day. So that automatically means that some of the load will fall on your partner and they'll most of the time pick that up really happily. So start on that basis you know when in in the early foothills of a relationship start on the expectation that you're both going to work and you're both going to contribute in a financial way to to your your family because that then makes the other end if it does end in divorce much much easier to recover from.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Much easier and a much more proactive way to approach your relationship actually as well isn't it? Yeah. Great. Okay well we are going to move on now to finally look at your current workplace and the culture that you're you experience there. Because I think what's really really lovely is that you have a very positive story to tell about your current firm and the support that they offer.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

I d I do Mary so I had at the point I I mentioned earlier that I became a consultant for a period and at the point at which my youngest child was about to go to university and this is post-COVID I had a realization that working from home on my own with without the fresh wind of children coming in and out with their stories was going to be quite isolating. And so I made a conscious decision to go back into a firm and start to give back some of the learnings over my years at the sort of latter end of my career. And so I went through a series of interviews and and I was offered a number of jobs and I took the job with Taylor Walton, you know, for for a number of reasons but one which particularly struck me was that my PA, a lovely lady called Anne, had been my PA there when I was a junior lawyer and she was still there 25 years later. And that is true of many, many, many of the people at Taylor Walton they've been there they'll they've been there a very very long time. And for me that spoke so loudly about the culture there you don't have people staying for that length of time if it's not a great place to work. And so that was the attraction for me was was this is a place people want to be and they want to work. And what is it that stands out for you about the how supportive they are there is a lot of a lot of the things that were lacking for me when I was a junior lawyer are there for junior lawyers now. So what I'm able to see is going back into the workplace is how much flexibility there is for everybody you know working from home if they want or need to um the the fact that all of the teams work cohesively across departments. It's not working completely in silos within the family team or the company commercial team across three offices there's lots of socials where we all meet up together. I'm doing a an event next month oh my goodness it's coming round soon uh where we're working with um a charity called Youth Talk and we're there's a group of us I think there's about 15 of us doing a charity walk in the Cairngorms 33 miles. But that's I know it it's just such a long way but I think the lovely thing about that is that I'm probably one of the older people doing it but it's bringing along a number of junior lawyers across different teams older lawyers junior partners across the whole firm and walking and talking and what better way to really get to know people than walking and talking sounds fantastic Tamara.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

I hope you've got I hope you've got a good pair of walking boots.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

I have got a great pair of walking boots I left them with my friend in Suffolk last week um and I had to do a long walk this weekend and I miss them enormously. Trainers just didn't quite hit the mark.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Very good that sounds fantastic and I think what sounds great is that there's a real understanding that life has many facets to it. It's not just about getting the job done and getting the results but you actually get the results by acknowledging that people are multifaceted and and will have different needs at different times.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah there is it would be lovely if everybody could just carry on doing their job without any external factors affecting the way that they show up but that's not reality. And I I think the fact that workplaces now recognise that more and more means that people will have much more enjoyable and productive work-life balance.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

And I I I often end these conversations with a reflective question. So I'm going to invite you to answer this final one which is what have relationships taught you about what really matters in life and work?

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Well actually I know the answer to this I didn't know you were going to ask me this question but I I but I would say that the thing that makes everybody tick is communication. The thing that makes a good marriage is communication the thing that makes a good divorce is communication the thing that makes a workplace a good place to work is communication. So I think as long as we continue to communicate with one another what we need, what we can offer, what we want is is all power to all of us really I think we just have to keep saying it.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

And it's communicating about the real things that matter for us as well, isn't it? And also what you've talked about, the walk and talk element of it, bringing in whatever opportunities you can to make sure there is space to communicate properly, not just on a superficial level, but on a deeper level. Tomorrow it has been a very enlightening conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you very much, Mary. Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.