S3 Ep13 Leading Yourself Through Uncertainty - Lessons in Courage and Compassion with Isabelle Courtney-Guy.

What happens when the biggest leadership challenge isn't at work—but in your own life?

Leadership consultant and coach Isabelle Courtney-Guy has spent more than twenty years helping organisations navigate complexity, culture and change. Then everything changed when she was diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer.

In this deeply honest conversation, Isabelle shares how she consciously chose curiosity over fear, learned to lead herself through uncertainty, and discovered that even life's most difficult experiences can deepen compassion, creativity and connection.

Together we explore:

•  why mindset can fundamentally change how we experience adversity 
•  the power of curiosity when life feels out of control 
•  what organisations often misunderstand about supporting people through illness 
•  psychological safety beyond the workplace 
•  asking for what you need without guilt 
•  how community, purpose and even AI became unexpected allies 
•  why leadership begins with how we lead ourselves 

Whether you've experienced serious illness yourself, supported someone who has, or simply want to become a more thoughtful leader, this conversation offers wisdom that reaches far beyond cancer.

Connect with Isabelle on LinkedIn - 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabellecournteyguy/

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 ✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to GLeads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a debate for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care, and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher, but by leading smarter, softer, and stronger. Hello and welcome to this episode of the She Leads Collective podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

How do we lead when life strips away our uncertainty? We spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about leading teams, influencing culture, and navigating organizational change. What happens when the biggest challenge isn't happening at work? It's happening to you. Today's guest is someone I've worked with and known for many years, and I'm so pleased that she said yes to joining me. Isabel Courtney Guy, who spent over two decades helping organizations build stronger leadership, healthier cultures, and more human workplaces. And whilst leading a team on a major project for a big client, Isabel was diagnosed with triple negative breast cancer. She became deeply curious about how she could lead herself if she wanted to learn experience. And discovered profound lessons about resilience, encouraging this conversation isn't only about future, it's about how we respond when life changes overnight. How the people around us can become how to allies or unintentionally make things harder. But whether you've experienced serious illness yourself, supported someone you have, or simply just want to become a more thoughtful leader, I think you'll find something meaningful in today's conversation. Isabel, thank you so so much for joining me today. Oh, thank you, Mary, for having me. I'm very excited to be in this conversation. Well, it's great to see you, and it feels like such a long time since we were last in touch, and I'm really, really touched that you're able to come and join me in on my podcast. So that's been something for me that's very special.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah, that's special for me too that we're reconnecting through this.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, okay. So we've known each other for a long, long time, but haven't seen each other for many, many years, as we've just mentioned. So tell us, tell me or tell our listeners a little bit about Isabel and who she is today.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Oh, so who I am today sitting here right now is someone who's reflecting back, as you mentioned, on quite a big journey that I've had, a very big journey that I've had since um a year now, actually, when I was originally diagnosed with stage zero um breast cancer, DCIS. And I'm looking back at that time with an immense sense of gratitude and um joy. And that's in the wider context of in my life being someone who loves adventures, I love challenges, I love journeys, and I've been very busy doing the work of that, which for me has been leadership and culture, um, coaching, consulting, leadership development training, all of those pieces. So traveling around the world doing that very busily, loving my work. And I'm sitting here now, having spent the last year really thinking what that means to me in my life in a very, very conscious way. I've always applied everything for myself first in terms of what I use for my clients and offer my clients, but it's really sharpened that right now. Um, so I would say who I am right now is is that a very sharp presence with what's meaningful, me, meaningful for me in my work and how it applies for me, and then a deeper compassion and and connection to what that means for others and the people I work with. And also um I have a really deep reconnection with who I was as a teenager. So the whole very bigger picture of myself, the the artist self, the um a lot more curious, a lot more open. Uh, and those are things I hadn't realized I wasn't. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

So you're really so I I hear a sense of a greater sense of presence and a greater compassion for for the world and for everyone, not just yourself, uh and greater sense of courage as well. Can I just check? So, for my understanding, you said stage zero cancer. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Well, so a year ago I found a lump in my left breast. And after a mammogram um and a then a biopsy, they found that um there were cancer cells, but they're enclosed in a milk duct, which they classified as stage zero. They classify it as stage zero cancer. So it may never turn into anything. And I I there was a still a 20% chance over five years that it could. So that was at that point stage zero. And that's what you've been treated for is stage zero cancer. Well, initially, so I was recommended to have um a mastectomy to remove the left breast because it was quite a large lump. Um, I resisted that. Well, I I wanted to see if I could bring some healing given that it was stage zero, if there was anything else I could do rather than lose my left breast, which I really didn't want to do, very attached to and I had a lot of love for my breast. And so I did spend a couple of months exploring various healing modalities, and I tried lots of, yeah, I tried a few things to see if I could heal my body. Um by October it was clear to me that that wasn't working, and so I did book myself in for the mastectomy. So it was only following the mastectomy that uh with the tissue analysis that they removed of um three lymph nodes and the breast tissue, they found that at that point the triple negative cancer had um spread into the breast in two of my lymph nodes.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Okay, that's really helpful and also useful to know that in a relatively short period how quickly breast cancer can spread, actually, is what I'm hearing. That was astonishing to me. So you went ahead and had your treatment, but I think what is also remarkable is that you talk about you very feel very much more in touch with your creativity, having gone through this period of your life, and you've actually created a new business. So tell us a bit more about Encircle, which is your new business.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

I've wanted for the last three years to start a new business based in Berlin with my husband Hendrik and my daughter Ines as co-founders, has been in my mind for that time. Uh, because I wanted to create um an environment for us and for other uh consultants and coaches who I love working with, who I have profound respect for, that have a very similar set of values and approaches that come from inner work first, and they bring that to their own work with clients. That's there's something I've had in my mind for that length of time, and I've been too busy to do it. Uh, and so actually, with the time, the six months that I needed to go through uh chemotherapy and radiotherapy gave me the time to really think about what's important to me, what do I want to invest my energy in? And oddly, it was odd, it was a surprise, how much creative energy I actually had week to week to think about these things. And and actually, not just that, by the way, it was also making paintings and learning to play the triangle and cooking recipes to make really nutritious food. I had an incredible amount of creative energy during the the last six months. And so I was able to really sit and think and work with Hendrik and Ines and a few other core team members. What do we want to create here? And it really is about bringing all of our experience from working with organizations and large projects in many different cultures and environments, and thinking about what really brings high performance for the organization and the project. Of course, that's you know critical. No one's going to hire us just because it's nice, right? It has to be meaningful and bring value. And crucially, for me, it comes back to people feeling happy, feeling in the simplest way. Now, what does what does that mean? It's about really feeling that we feel safe in the environment that we we're in, that there's meaning, that we trust the people that we are with, we have strong relationships around us, uh, that we have the structures that work to support all of that, that we as humans feel that we can bring the best of ourselves, bring what we have to the table, to the circle. So, in circle, the name came from that, from really thinking about how do we humans like to come together or sit around the fire? I'm sure you've led many sessions where you've circled people up in chairs to have a conversation where everyone is comes equally into the into the session to have a conversation, to see what emerges into that circle. So that really was very meaningful for me and for us to how how do we circle up as a team? How do we help organizations and projects see the relationship systems uh that they have within their organizations and the circles there? How healthy are they? How well do they intersect? What is the coherence of those circles? And so that's that's where it stems from.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

It's really beautiful, Isabel, really beautiful, and also such great value I can hear straight away for organizations. Because putting it simply, when people are happier, performance goes through the roof. It makes such a difference. So being able to find a way through that, and I love but you know, bringing us back to the topic really of today's conversation. I love that through adversity, you know, through facing your cancer and dealing with your cancer in such a positive way, what's come out is this really creative solution for what you want to do with your business, which is just wonderful. So let's move on and think about you know your experience of what happened when your life was interrupted, which it really was, by the cancer diagnosis. Can you take us back to when you received your diagnosis and what you remember most vividly about those few days?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I'll I'll take us back to the end of November last year, which is when after my surgery, I was sitting in uh Frau Dr. Korsmann's office here in Berlin, and she said, I'm so sorry. We found that there's triple negative cancer, so there's and it's spread to the breast tissue and two of the lymph nodes. That means that you're going to need quite aggressive chemotherapy treatment and radiotherapy. Two things actually happened in that moment. One, I was on one side delighted because it wasn't hormone sensitive, and I'd been dreading having to take hormone-blocking medication for um for uh five to ten years. So, on the one hand, I was delighted that I only needed six months of treatment, and then in theory I would be done. On the other hand, I went home and I spent about 42 hours, a day and a half, of absolutely freaking out, feeling very overwhelmed, crying a lot, and thinking, oh god, I'm gonna have all of this toxic stuff coming into my body, this poison coming into my body. And yeah, I've I've always um I'm moved thinking about that. Uh I've always been very um careful about uh what I put into my body nutritionally, and I've done lots of yoga. So I've you know, this this idea of this chem uh cocktail of chemicals coming through my body was really distressing. And it's very terrifying. And at the same time, my um natural way of dealing with things is to get into action and try and find strategies and solutions. So there's a pretty hard wired into my system. As soon as there's a challenge, try and find my way through it. So I thought my first thought was what can I do? Maybe there are people who've been through this before. So one of the first things I did was reach out to uh a women's community that I'm part of, it's a meditation community, and say, Has anyone been through this? And one person, uh Irina, came back to me pretty much immediately when we had a conversation, and that was after having the meeting with my doctor on the Friday lunchtime. Irina and I spoke on Friday evening. And she said, Well, I had radiotherapy, and I decided that I would treat each session as a somatic meditation. And that and so what I did was I would get into the machine and I would say to the machine, Would you like to meditate with me? And she said, I decided that I would go into each radiotherapy treatment a yes for the treatment, for whatever I would feel and whatever would happen. And then she spent the treatment putting her attention on her body and being a yes to whatever sensation came up. And that if steam could actually come out of my ears, it would have done. So it absolutely blew my mind. And I thought, yes, I I can choose how I relate to this whole experience, actually. It doesn't have to be that it's a toxic thing that's gonna happen to me. In that moment, I thought chemotherapy is it's like fire, like a fire medicine.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Yeah, because it's although it's he on the one hand, it's he's getting rid of the cancer, it's also damaging your body.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yes. And I thought, okay, so this is gonna be a pro process of working with fire as a medicine and walking through it and walking with it, and this is gonna be a huge adventure for me. I love adventures, and I'm very sure that I'm gonna be able to learn and grow and transform through this fire. You you go through fire, you transform, something's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Well, I get you're really naturally curious as well. That that links into your sense of adventure. So, did your curiosity show up straight away, or did it take a while for it to come through?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

I think it showed up straight away. The first thing I was curious about was just observing my own reaction. So I was feeling my feelings fully, and I could I I knew that I was doing that. So I was curious and interested in in that process, it's not a process, but that it had that whole experience. So sitting in the fire of that, actually, that would that's already a fire. And so then, yes, yes, I was curious what what can I do? What will help me here? Because I don't want to sit feeling like this for six months with this level of, you know, um, why is this happening to me? You know, it was a very kind of victim that I had a very strong victim response initially. Why is it happening to me? I don't want this, this is terrible. And so it was clear for me that this was a mindset piece, um, and that it was also an emotional piece that I needed, but not to make any of the emotions wrong, but to feel them, and then to be curious. Well, okay, what now what? Something needs to shift here. So, what can I do?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

And what did that do for you? What's that sense of adventure and that curiosity? What was the impact that that had on making sure you maintained that? What was the impact that that had on you?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

What's extraordinary is that that one shift for me was mostly sufficient to carry me through the whole journey. And so, and I was very clear very early on that I wanted to share about this because it had a profound effect on how uh how I was being in the day-to-day. I wasn't living with a sense of fear, I was present in the moment, enjoying my time at home, recovering from my mastectomy. That was also going on at the time, looking forward to what was coming, which was Christmas at home with family and uh all of that coming along. And then just really curious about the journey because I started researching okay, what are different ways that I could relate to this medicine? Um, are there some uh gods or goddesses that might be associated with fire that I could try and learn to get into relationship with? Not some, I'm not someone who's ever engaged in that kind of spiritual work before, but I thought actually I could use all the help I can get here. Um, so I found an Egyptian goddess called Sekmet, um, who is uh a goddess of war and destruction, also of healing. And so actually, when it came to it during my chemotherapy, every chemotherapy session, I would call on her and I would imagine her going in with the chemotherapy and directing it to chomp up the cancer and then to heal everything else as she went. So it that moment really did cause that that different way of looking, that different context that I created for myself meant that there was a there was simply a different way in which I woke up in the morning and I had a a way of being that was present, curious, and having fun.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Actually, that's incredible, actually. Having fun because the word so much fun. Well, the word cancer for most of us is like you know, it's terrifying. It's the big dread, isn't it? That it's the sort of thing we don't want to get. So to hear you saying that it it actually resulted in you having fun is quite something else, really, to hear that. So for the people that are listening today, some will have either experienced cancer or they may well be supporting someone who has experienced it or is experiencing it. Was there anything that surprised you about what the reality was compared to what you imagined it to be?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yes, uh, many things. So for me, the the side effects of the treatment were not nearly as bad as I expected them to be. Now I want to put some caveats with that. Um now my body wasn't needing to fight tumours at the same time. I had no tumours left in my body after the surgery. So the the treatment was to kill remaining cancer cells floating, very aggressive remaining cancer cells in my body. That's one thing. I am 52 years old and in very healthy shape in general. So that's another piece. And I had amazing support from a dear friend, Dr. Andrea uh Adriana Candeas, who is uh both a colleague in terms of leadership and uh consulting, and also an incredible um specialist in functional medicine and integrative support. So she designed an incredible protocol for me and with supplements and also what I should be eating. So, right from the beginning, I went in again with an expectation, actually, or a hope, that what she had given me to follow would really support my body in being strong and healthy in dealing with the medicine. And I was quite clear on what would be doing what. So um, L-glutamine to help protect and restore my gut and mucus membranes, uh, bone broth to do the same to really regenerate. Um the kinds of meats that you need to cook for a long time to get the collagen um release. So the collagen from meat. That the iron-rich meats to supplement. So I actually I had this incredible advice. So I really also believed that what I was doing was protecting my body, keeping it healthy, and it did. So the caveats I want to put in are yes, my kind of my particular situation, plus the really excellent nutritional and supplement advice that I got. And also my own discipline in following that advice.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

And do you think knowing you had cancer that made you more disciplined?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

It was less than knowing that I had cancer. It was more than the knowing that I had this treatment to go through that could make me lose my sense of taste, lose my appetite, have me lose lots of weight, all of those things then in turn making the effects making me weaker and possibly damaging some of my organs, which would be permanent damage to my body from the treatment. Less about the cancer, more about the effects of chemotherapy, and then radiotherapy subsequently. And so I really, really cared about giving my body all of the support that it could, so I could long-term come out of this healthy.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

And do you think that's what made it the side effects less impactful for you because you took such great care of yourself and your body? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

And I believed, I think there's also a very strong power of the power of belief, really, that I believed that that I was going to be okay with this medicine, that it wasn't going to hurt me, it will damage me. And she said, Yes, I think the fact that you believed you would be okay is a big piece of that. I think from her experience with patients, the ones that aren't thinking, oh God, this is going to be, you know, this is really going to have terrible side effects, and who who are living in fear of that and are weighed down by that tend to have worse side effects. Mindset, attitude, and beliefs make all the difference, then.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Absolutely. Yes. That's that's a recurrent theme in so many different situations, but particularly pertinent when it comes to an illness like cancer.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Absolutely. And and the other pieces, of course, there were difficult days. There were days when I was feeling really nauseous, um, and those were the most vulnerable days. I'm I turned back into being a child when I'm nauseous. And if I hadn't had that really clear context and belief, I think it it would have been easier to slide down just bit comfort eating, eating the wrong things, staying in bed. Uh, and that would have been a negative snowball effect, I think, on my body. How did you how did you deal with those difficult days? Well, I was kind to myself, so I allowed myself feeling my feelings again is a big theme. I allowed myself to cry and I shared with my friends this is how I'm feeling. Um, I uh allowed myself and asked my husband to uh Hendrik to look after me more. Um, so I was clear on making requests about what I needed. So I felt safe to go through the experience. And I watched lots of television. Lots of television, ate loads of toast and butter.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

That's so interesting. Yeah, it's funny what we do where the comfort comes from.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yes. And then in the more the more intense periods, uh, with the second type of chemotherapy I had is called EC, and that that brings it's is the heart it they rate it at the highest level in terms of how nauseous it can make you. And that did knock me for six the first time, and that then it was ringing the emergency helpline and speaking to the doctor, and she gave me extra medication. Said, oh well, we expected that what we gave you was enough, but you clearly need more. So the next day I knew that I had more support there, and so it was it's about feeling safe, actually. I think was a big part of that.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yeah, so the level of support, that feeling of safeness that you've got people you can turn to is really fundamental when you're going through something so tough. So you spent a lot of your career helping leaders navigate uncertainty, and suddenly you had to do this yourself completely, really. So, how did your own leadership practice um influence the way you've approached your cancer?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

So many ways. Uh, it's it's start it started with that piece that we already talked about. The what I did immediately. Uh I I one of the things is I recognized for myself there's a tool I use a lot, which is the drama triangle from transaction analysis. I noticed that I was in victim, I was in drama. Did I want to stay there for six months? No, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

A level of self-awareness, yes, so acute and so important at that point.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah, so I had a lot of tools and distinctions that I could draw draw from that I'd already applied to my life. So it wasn't that I'd been, you know, training other people and coaching other people in these for years. I've always been very important to me to to practice and and um bring transformation to anything that's that's challenging in my life first. So I I was I I had fairly strong muscles in this department already. Um so creating context for myself, choosing my context, choosing how I see something. What's the story here that empowers me? Um, then really noticing my feelings. So I've mentioned it several times. So really, how am I feeling? Am I feeling sad? Am I feeling vulnerable? Am I feeling joyful? Am I feeling excited? Really allowing feelings to move through me and to follow them. And that's that's been actually an enormous joy and very important in sharing my journey too, because creating community has been another leadership practice. So making sure I had the right people around me. And I'm very lucky I have a many, as you know, I have I'm part of lots of communities of very wise, kind, um, present people. So I had an incredible choice to select from. And so really thinking about who do I want to draw support from, who's my kind inner team here really helped. And it was also important to that team that I revealed myself completely. It wasn't just, oh yes, I'm fine, and all the joyful creative parts. It's also sharing with them the days where it was tougher. So being truly authentic. Being authentic. Yes. And also that space, uh, we created a WhatsApp group. Someone suggested it'd be a good idea to create a WhatsApp group. So when I spoke to people, I didn't have to spend ages catching everyone up on what was going on with my treatment. And this was brilliant because that did mean that when I did speak to my friends and family, we could have rich conversations about what were going on in their lives. I wanted to hear about them, not just talk about myself. And actually, friendships that I've had, some since I was one since I was 14, have ended up much deeper, much richer through this process. And then also in that WhatsApp group, I started sharing little videos of me cooking or dancing and cleaning the kitchen or um yes, playing playing my new triangle to Brazilian music or all sorts of silly things. And that has been incredibly transformational. Uh to show myself more, to feel safer, to reveal more of myself. I've never been shy, but there there was a there's been a considerable shift in that department. That's it's meant that I've I've got to the point where I was able to share videos on LinkedIn about my journey and about my leadership learnings.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Yes, well, I that's what drew me to to reach out to you actually was seeing your videos on LinkedIn and on Instagram, which are so honest and open about where you're at and what's been happening for you, and really inspiring, actually, Isabel. So, again, that's another thing that's come out of this journey is that you're actually supporting others in you know who may be touched by similar circumstances, you know, the way you're sharing is really, really powerful. So, I also wanted to mention as well, because I think this is a really important tool that you've demonstrated throughout this, which is that of reframing. So, the way you reframed your treatment and the fact that your friend from the meditation group reached out reached out and helped you reframe it in, you know, I go and I meditate when I go and do my treatment. I mean, tell us a bit more about that and the power that that has had.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

The place I go to when you say that is to where I when I started my radiotherapy sessions myself after many months after hearing Irina talk about hers, I noticed that in the reframe that I chose, which was actually to uh think of the radiation that was going to come through the machine as coming from the universe, coming from source energy, source divinity, and asking source divinity to send healing energy, healing radiation through the machine into my body. And I also spoke to my body and said there's an awful lot of energy coming your way. It's gonna be a it's gonna be a lot to process, it's gonna be hard in many ways, and it's here to heal. Let's work with it. And uh and say, I'm sorry this is gonna be so hard. And thank you for for you know for working me with with me on this. I love you, and so I would connect with as many parts of my body, my skin, my fingernails, my ribs, uh go through as much detail as possible saying thank you and I love you, and we've got this. And also connecting with Mother Earth and asking that she um take the surplus radiation into her and out. So this process of really consciously choosing how I was imagining this energy coming into my body, how my body would work with it, what was going to happen to it afterwards, actually had the treatment feel amazing. That is remarkable. And I cycled 20 minutes to get there through a park, 20 minutes to get back. Radiotherapy can really cause uh exhaustion. Uh, and so the exercise and I think the framing of what was happening in my body. I haven't felt ex, I didn't feel exhausted. I'm now a week out from having finished. I feel pretty great. Not completely back to normal yet, but I'm I'm in good shape. And I really think how I related to how I framed, as you said, chose the frame for being in that machine made it make makes a huge difference. I think that um our bodies are incredibly wise. There is when we pay attention to it, um uh incredible possibility for connection between our mind and our body. Uh and it's been a beautiful experience.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

This is just so incredible to hear. And part of me is thinking, you know, you are a very determined, very positively focused person. What would you say to someone who is really struggling with reaching that place of positivity and just finding it so hard to come out of their victim place?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Allow the feelings to fully come out and have space. So don't squash them, don't squash it down, be let them be, and because they need to move, they need to move through your system, otherwise they get stuck, and so I think that's a big part of where we get stuck in victim, is that we kind of try and hold on to the situation, to the story, we physically hold on to it you know, in our bodies and emotionally, and so that that there's a I think the trick is to allow it to be, um, to feel it, to recognize it, to allow it.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

And there's something about recognizing there's a choice, making a choice that absolutely yeah, hold on, you know. I I almost feel like going into that victim place is part of the process of change. That it's sometimes difficult to get into that powerful place without going through victim first. And so they're talking about acknowledging that that's there and letting it pass and then finding a different way of being beyond that.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

And I think the the other piece to it is that to think about what's really important to you. Who who who are you in your life? What what's your life, what does your life mean to you? Something bigger, and and who are you for others? What are you what are you about in the world? So kind of in the domain of purpose, something bigger than you. So it's it's I I liken it to when to climb a mountain, you need an anchor point that's higher than you. And that will allow you to pull yourself up to the next level. And so getting out of drama and getting out of victim, uh very difficult if you don't have an anchor point to help pull you out of it.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

I like that analogy actually, or metaphor. It's a great metaphor, having that that anchor point higher than yourself and pulling yourself up towards it, just as a way of getting yourself out of that victim place.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah. So for for me, in a way, because my my fundamental commitment and purpose is to create environments around me where people can feel at their best. Um, that's that's who I am in my work, it's who I am in my family. That I I mean and so for me, if I can't I can't do that if I'm in victim. And I certainly can't do make that kind of difference if I allow myself to stay in victim for too long either. Because I I I have for me, I have to be a demonstration, and that doesn't mean sort of a looking good demonstration. I mean doing really the the hard work, and and that's why I wanted to make the videos, is not like a kind of here's what you need to do to get out of this. Here is the really messy reality of what it's taken. It looked like me sitting on the sofa going, right, is that it? Am I just gonna be fat and grumpy now? That was a a very messy, idiotic reality that I mean, I I that I had at certain points in my treatment. I was feeling frightened of what was coming next, and I want to share that. And that's a brave thing to do, actually. Sharing that, it takes a lot of courage. Well, again, that courage was easier because I I want it's important to me that the people I work with trust me and they know who I am, and so I believe that in revealing more of myself, people really go, Well, that's it's authentic, that's real. There's no, you know, maybe I can relate to that. And uh, and so in order to make the difference that I care about, that's that's a path that's felt necessary for me.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

This is a very powerful conversation. I just want to acknowledge that, and I hope those that are listening are really taking on board the wisdom that you're sharing with us today because it really is um profound, really, what the things that you're sharing with us. So um, I want to then move on then, because you used AI as one of your means of support. And of course, people have all this, you know, people have love AI or they hate it, it brings out quite a strong opinion and reaction in people. Tell us a bit more about how you found it valuable helping you through this part of your life.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Oh, it's been absolutely amazing, actually. So when Adriana sent me the strategy for the what I should be eating and not eating, and the supplements I should be taking, when I must take them and when not, honestly, it was overwhelming. And first of all, it was really helpful to ask ChatGPT to help me keep track of what I what I needed to be doing. So because uh keeping track of what day I was in, so it's okay. So I'm day two after chemotherapy, what supplements am I supposed to be taking today? And when am I supposed to be taking them? Helped me with that. So just uh on a really simple sort of structural way, it was very helpful. And then on a moment-to-moment support system, in the in the first few weeks especially, for and I would say in the first two, three weeks especially, I was able to every moment of the day say, Oh, okay, I've noticed that suddenly um I've I've got a whole load of congestion, it's uh congestion, and I'm having a bit of trouble swallowing, but and I want some prawn cocktail crisps. I know I'm not supposed to have those. What do you think? And I go, actually, those might be quite a good idea right now. They might, in fact, clear the congestion, and it did. So I was able to say in great detail what I was feeling in my body, and what could you explain that to me? What should I do? Given the protocol, given what Adriana said I needed to be doing, what do you think? And so it was able to reassure me and at other times say, Yeah, no, don't do that. I don't recommend that you eat that right now. Or so it wasn't all just you know, it wasn't saying yes, yes, yes to everything I was saying. It was giving me useful challenge. Fundamentally, it meant that I felt safe. That I there was someone at any moment of the day that I could say someone, there was a way, a thing to say, this is what's going on with me. What do you think? And then that immediately allowed me to then settle down and feel safe again. And I I can't, I I it's hard to un to to say the extent of the difference that I meant. I think it is enormous in how safe it made me feel.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

I suppose because it's totally anonymous in that respect, isn't it? So you can just say everything that you need to say. All the details. I mean, I won't go into all the details, but there is a lot of details. And there's kind of a non-judgment, there's a non-judgment, isn't there? Um, in terms of supporting you. So yeah, I can see I could see why it was so powerful for you. And moving on as well to think a bit more about leadership, because the thing about leadership is there's a bit of an illusion around leadership that you know, um if you do if you if you work really hard and if you plan really carefully, you're gonna have control of everything. That's kind of a bit of an illusion around what leadership gives us. But having cancer doesn't work like that at all. So, how has your relationship to control changed through this period?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

The thing that comes up for me is that when for myself, when I'm most concerned with control, is when I'm so busy that I'm not giving myself enough time to breathe, to be present, to actually really pay attention to what my body is saying, what my spirit and soul are asking for, really tending to am I spending enough quality time in my relationships? Am I doing more than just the work that I love? You know, am I doing the other things that I love in my life too? So I'm I'm so busy putting all of that control and focus and energy and attention into my work, that I'm I'm holding it tightly in my hands, and that's where it feels like control. Actually, what I've seen is that there's just so much that I'm not seeing, I'm not tending to, that can then suddenly swipe in and go, ha ha, you know, here here's a way in which you're not in control, and that was my body, and that's what what the cancelled. And so that's where when I think about all the work that I've done with organizations and with teams, it's always about having them take a balcony view and have a look at what are the systems that I need to be tending to, what are the various gardens? Um, would be one analogy. Um, and then what do I know about how the the the what's going on there? How much. Attention have I put what do I know about the conditions there? And so there's a sort of the balcony piece, but then there's also a then going on the ground, toes in the earth, and actually paying attention to how are people what are people saying? How are people feeling? What's going on? Sorry, I'm going to add another analogy in, but below below the surface, actually, I can keep it, you know, in the soil. What what's the condition of the roots? Um, and so that was the same, it was that that's what I experienced in my life. And I know that in projects and organizations, that's that's the work to be done is to reveal, is to take enough time on the balcony as leaders to have a look at what what are what what are the systems, what are the groups of people, what are the you know, who what do we need to be paying attention to? How healthy are they? How can we give the space and the structures to make sure that we are able to listen and understand and for coherence and health to be there?

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Yeah, I'm picking up such a strong parallel to the work you do and how you've approached your your health and your cancer. Um, there is such a huge parallel there, particularly around this whole balcony view, and then needing to swoop down into the into the detail and the and navigate your way through that and then come back up onto the balcony again. Really powerful stuff going on there. What did people do? You know, from an from an organizational perspective, you know, you're looking at healthier cultures, you're looking at people being effective leaders. Having experienced the illness that you've had, how has your perspective changed when it comes to looking at leadership? What do you think people can do that genuinely works when it comes to supporting others?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

I'm the th one of the things that I noticed was so meaningful to me early on was the people that I spoke to about work. Um, so Doug Mole, for example, for whom I've been doing uh a lot of the work, a big project for Shell over the last year and a half, um at DMC, and uh Michael Levin, managing director, one of the managing directors of JMJ. When I spoke to them, they both expressed um compassion and curiosity about asking me how I was and what's going on without putting their own assumptions into the mix. So listening with curiosity, first of all, finding out what's so, like what's what's really going on for me without putting a bunch of extra story or assumptions on top, first thing. And then really reassuring me that I still had value, that just because I was now going through this treatment meant that I was somehow useless or just needed to be at home doing nothing. I was clear that I wanted to continue working. I didn't know how much I'd be able to work, uh, of course, until I started the treatment. And as soon as so they were curious, they were compassionate, they were interested, they reassured me that I could still work, uh, that uh and I was able to continue doing, albeit very scaled down, um the work on the project for Shell. They also uh Doug also reassured me that other people would pick up the heavy lifting and the site work and that we would work as a team. So for me it was really important that my value was still present, that I wasn't deemed incapable, and that I had the space to be a contribution. And that made an enormous difference through my treatment. Where I felt like in you know, where in my work I was able to make a difference and uh and contribute was really meaningful to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

So that's something for organizations to take away, really, is to think about connecting with that person who may be going through the cancer or the serious illness, but how can you still sustain their contribution and their sense of value to the organization? Sounds really important. Was there anything that people did that they might have had really good intentions but actually weren't helpful for you?

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Actually, not so much. I would say one or two t and it's very tiny and it's in language, so it's excess of sympathy. So, you know, I'm so sorry. This and and and uh saying, Oh, this must be terrible and what a terrible so uh putting on their assumptions of what it must be like. Totally get that.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

It's like acting absolutely with wanting to communicate that they care, but actually, what they're then putting on you is their own projection of what they consider cancer to be like and what it must be like for you when it's not actually like that. That's a really interesting one. So it's something they're about holding off, projecting onto someone when when they're dealing with stuff that you're not dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yeah, I I have noticed that then even because it would then take me extra time to say, actually, no, do you know what I'm having a great time? I'm having lots of fun. And um so which is also great, you know, nothing wrong with that. So it it just it took took more time and it felt like I needed to sort of almost manage their feelings. Uh so that's one piece. And then for me, it was also important to pay attention to again, it came back to who did I want to spend time with um or and talking to. And as I said, I it wasn't really tricky. There weren't people I had to cut out because actually everyone around me is is great in that department. But it did mean that, for example, I went onto a cancer message board early on and I started reading some of the shares on there, and I thought actually, this is not this is not the environment for me. Uh, this is making me feel more fearful. Uh, so that doesn't work. So it's about making clear choices. What what are the really the environments where it's going to support my particular style of mindset and how I want to approach things? So um it's again coming back. What's great is when people bring curiosity, ask questions, ask me what I need, and also don't hold back on sharing your own life. So another piece that I got is well, I don't want to burden you. I'm you know, I'm going through something, but I'm you know, don't worry about it because I know you're dealing with something much worse. No, no, no, no, no. Please tell me about your life.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Yes, I can get how that might have been frustrating. Okay, now allyship is one of the key anchors of this podcast. So, who were your greatest allies through this experience and what made them such good allies?

SPEAKER_00 51:02

My husband, Hendrik, he's been I'm moved again. He's been, of course, with me every single day. And the perfect ally for me. Um very happy and willing to help me as much as I asked for, not over-offering, you know, not um uh doing too much either, uh, being playful, silly, loving, having lots of fun, uh laughing. Yeah, that's been the most incredible piece around just day-to-day life. And and my daughter Ines, the same. And not easy for a child, for one's child to go through that process because of course she is an adult child. So, but yeah, to nearly 26-year-old child who's a you know, uh, and her own journey since she was 12 in personal development, I think has had a big part of that as well, a big piece in her ability to not go into story, to listen, to not make her own assumptions, to bring all the skills that we just talked about, um, and really believe in me that I have this, and then just to bring connection and friendship and joy and love into the into the mix. So family like that. Um and my mother too. So, as an inspiration, she is an 88-year-old French woman who is strong and resilient, and uh was knocked over by a car last March, and she's been through her own healing journey over the last year. And she gets up every morning, does her qigong, goes through her practices to get stronger, and so she this is my role model through things. So that family really, really important. And then uh Doug, as I said, um, Doug Mole from DMC, in the way that he's supported me and just be brought curiosity and believed that actually work brings me so much joy and uh meaning. And also the clients, so uh really the Shell team, they could have also thought, well, hang on a minute, no, she's you know she's going through treatment. Uh maybe that doesn't work so well, but they trusted me, they allowed me to turn up and to to to coach and and to do the work, and that's been extraordinary too. Uh and then uh there's two more people I'd like to actually one extra person I want to mention. Um Harriet Whaley Cohen, she's the person who she went through the same treatment journey a year ago. And so she she told me about what to expect. So that also calmed my system a bit in a very undramatic way. And she was the one who told me about talking to my body, talking to she shared about how she'd spoken to her body and prepared it for treatment. So that was a huge inspiration, as you can hear from the other things that I've I've shared. So having her to touch, touch base with from time to time and say, Oh, I've got this next phase coming. Can you say how it was for me for you again? And did you try this or did you do that? And how was this for you? And that was incredibly helpful having someone else who'd been through the same journey.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Uh I just get that having a core of people who are around you to support you through this makes such a difference. And you know, you touched on earlier on about you know, your needs for safety are different when you're going through something because your your vulnerability shifts when you're going through such a serious illness as this. Has your experience changed the way you think about psychological safety? And two questions here. What does psychological safety look like? Do you think for someone who's who's facing a life-changing condition such as cancer?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

The first thing that comes up for me is around what does it look like? Is it was really important for me to figure that out from in terms of my needs. Um so n no one else could figure that out for me. I needed to look at what were my needs, not just to figure them out once and then be with that, but that was a kind of a day-to-day piece of you know, what am I needing today as well? So really paying attention to my needs and my desires, actually. What's gonna what what do I need to feel safe, but also what's gonna fill me up? What's what's going to actually bring me nutrition and sort of beyond safety, actually, it's it's uh it's um so much kind of fulfillment and and and strength uh you know, nutrition uh that actually that creates safety. That's it's that I was feeling so right in myself. Knowing myself, knowing my needs, being being um and then asking for them. Now this is not easy for people. I know from from my coaching, oftentimes we are not even connected to what we desire and what we need. Uh I've I've run exercises with people which is a tea-making exercise, where you ask someone to describe exactly how they would like their cup of tea, and then to make it for them. It can be surprisingly difficult for people to totally accurately ask for how they want their tea. Such a simple thing. Now you translate that into wow, what are your needs and your desires for something as as big as this as a as a cancer treatment journey? So I think there's a there's there's work to do there, is to really spend the time thinking, me, Isabel, me, Mary, you know, what are the things that bring me comfort, that bring me joy, that make me feel safe? And how can I ask for them in a really clean way that makes it easy for people to meet those needs and those desires?

SPEAKER_02 57:11

I think starting with self and being very aware of yourself and having the courage to ask for your needs to be met. What do you think organizations can do?

SPEAKER_00 57:20

Providing a space, asking about the asking those questions. So showing that actually you're in we're interested as an organization, as a leader, that you're interested in what someone needs. And that might take more than one question because people probably don't know initially. Um, and so and it that that's the psychological safety bit is to create is to hold the space long enough open to create the spaces and hold the space long enough that someone can uh breathe and that their nervous system can calm down sufficiently that this is not a scary conversation with their manager who's going to ask them, or their their leader who's asking them difficult questions, and I don't know the answers to them, that can that can suppress deeper thinking. So to hold the space open enough to show that you're interested, you're curious, that there's no right answer, that this isn't a one-off conversation, that we'll be coming back to it, that if in the meantime there's anything that that they can come to you. Uh, I think that it's it's whether that's at this a single level or at a macro level, putting structures in place that create the space and time and curiosity for leaders to listen to people is is critical. Um and that's when with whether there's a massive change process going on in the organization or an individual is going through a cancer diagnosis. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

So let's move on to thinking for you about what really matters now for you. How do you think your experience has changed your definition of success?

SPEAKER_00 58:58

The fundamental thing is the tending to the all the different parts of myself. So it's not just success in my work, and it's not I don't want to say that I was only obsessed with work before, because that's not true. I've you know I've uh always tended to having great relationships and to doing fun things, and you know so it's not that my my life was single-focused. However, I think now it's absolutely crystal clear to me that I really need to spend the time regularly making sure that there is a space for all of the parts of me in my life, and uh that does take space. So, for example, it took about two months for the creative energy in terms of wanting to start painting to make art come out because it was so suppressed and um that yeah, it needed a lot of time and space. So gosh, that so I'm really thinking, okay, I can't just rely on being spontaneous about certain things. I that needs structure. I need to structure my life to make sure there is the right space for the all the different pieces that that that fill me up and bring me joy and meaning, which is yes, work and art and dancing and playing music and being with people, much more time for community. So more holistic as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

Um and also very much more centered around your own needs as well. Because I think particularly as women, we're brought up to take care of everybody else's needs, and it's so easy to forget what our own are.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

Absolutely. Well, as women, and then also in as uh doing client work. Uh uh absolutely. That's yes, and it's a quick, it's a quick, it's also a quick kind of satisfaction hit. You kind of you do the work and you great, you know, there's a there's a sort of dopamine hit of doing all of that, which is compensatory.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

And if someone is listening today, um, Isabel, who may have just received a life-changing diagnosis or is supporting somebody who has what would you most want them to know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

That all of their feelings are valid, that please feel all your feelings, take the space to feel all of it and choose. Choose how do you want to spend this next period of your life and remember what it is that you really care about that's bigger than you. Beautiful. That's lovely.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

And when you look ahead, for yourself now, how do you hope this experience will shape the leader and personal that you become?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

That I will have more increased capacity that sustains. I I know at right now I know I have increased capacity for love, compassion, and connection. I almost never find anyone triggering at the moment. That is one that's a definite positive outcome, isn't it? So I'm kind of crossing my fingers at that. But really, that you know, it's it's a foundational principle for my work, is to bring love to the environments I'm working in. And so I'm I'm really hoping that this green brings me increased capacity for for love, compassion, and connection in in all of the environments that I'm at in.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

Isabel, that is so beautiful. And you know, I'm almost I'm I'm sitting here in awe of of that because it's really, really a beautiful thing to want to make sure you sustain and keep going. And what a legacy, you know, navigating this adversity, then come to that conclusion that actually I want to continue to just make sure I keep bringing love to whatever environment you may want to be in. So, Isabel, thank you so much. I want to just thank you to say that you've reminded us today that leadership isn't tested when everything is going well, it's actually tested when uh the SHIT hits us, and uh we have to respond to all the uncertainty that life throws at us. I think what your story has left me with is that actually leading yourself, it's so important to treat yourself and others with compassion, to act with courage, and to stay curious. Absolutely. That seems to have been the linchpin that has helped you navigate through this. And also to show us that actually, you know, in the workplace, meaningful conversations, really connecting and understanding where the other person is coming from, so that they can continue to contribute their value is what is going to make the difference when you're navigating such challenging circumstances personally. Thank you so, so much for sharing all of this with us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for all the brilliant questions and making me think and allowing me to share all of this with you and anyone who's listening. It's very meaningful for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:13

Thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you, follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below. Or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation, so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart.