S3 Ep15 - Women's Visibility and Influence - from Expertise to Impact with Sue Rizzello

Why do so many brilliant women remain invisible despite their expertise?

In this episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast, Mary Gregory is joined by thought leadership strategist Sue Rizzello to explore why influential ideas aren't always the ones that receive the greatest attention—and why women are still under-represented as recognised thought leaders.

Together they discuss:

•  The way thought leadership is often misunderstood. 
•  The difference between personal branding and genuine influence. 
•  Why women hesitate to speak up and be visible. 
•  How organisations unintentionally overlook valuable expertise. 
•  Practical ways leaders can become known for their thinking rather than their job title. 

This is a thoughtful conversation about confidence, credibility, visibility and creating workplaces where the best ideas—regardless of who they come from—have the opportunity to shape the future.

Whether you're building your own leadership profile or leading others, this episode offers practical insights into helping great thinking find the audience it deserves. 

Connect with Sue on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/suerizzello/

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 ✨ Produced by Mary Gregory Leadership Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to She Leads Collective Podcast. I'm Mary Gregory and I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is a space for honest conversations about what it really means to lead as a woman today and how we can all show up with more courage, care and clarity. You'll hear from inspiring women, powerful allies, and bold truth tellers who are changing the game not by playing tougher but by leading smarter, softer and stronger. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the She Leads Collective Podcast. What if the best ideas aren't the ones that change the world simply because the people behind them are never truly heard? Well, every day there are brilliant women leading organisations, solving complex problems and quietly transforming lives. Yet when we think of thought leaders, the same names often come to mind. And while there are definitely one or two female, on the whole, they're still overwhelmingly male. So I got wondering, why is that? Is it because women have fewer ideas, which I actually don't believe myself, but I want to explore that? Or is it because we've been taught to package expertise, confidence, and influence in a very particular way? Well, my guest today believes thought leadership isn't about becoming famous or building a personal brand, it's about helping the right ideas reach the people who need them most. Sue Rosello has spent more than 20 years helping organizations turn expertise into influence through powerful messaging, compelling stories, and authentic thought leadership. In this conversation, we're going to be exploring why so many talented women remain invisible, what holds them back from owning their expertise, and how we can redefine what influential leadership looks like. And I'm not talking about being out on the world stage. I'm talking about being visible within the field that you work and within the organizations in which you work. So if you've ever wondered whether your voice is enough or whether your ideas deserve a bigger platform, this conversation is for you. Sue, hello, and thank you for joining me. Thank you, Mary. Glad to be here. Well, it's a real pleasure that you've taken the time out. So let's kick off and talk a bit more about your work in the in the world of marketing. It's often described that marketing is all about helping ideas find their audience. How do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

First of all, the term marketing is actually largely meaningless because it's a big nebulous bucket of different disciplines and different activities. I mean, there is a common core, of course, and you know, to me it's about helping people find you, understand you, helping them trust you, which is key, and then helping engage with you, because that way they can buy you whatever it is that you you need them to buy. But that's it.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Okay, and that applies obviously if you're running your own business and you're trying to sell something, that applies. But it also applies if you're somebody within an organization and you want to have influence and bring people on board to your ideas as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Absolutely. I mean, ideas are absolutely at the center of this. I you know, I I I when I got into uh marketing, it was via PR, so that's about all about communications. And we were trying to get people to engage with very, very uh complex technical things, and it they don't engage with the detail, they engage with the idea behind it. And I I don't think it's it that's any different, no matter what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So, Sue, what first drew you into the world of thought leadership almost 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

It was a gradual um realization, I think, of the the role that the individuals played in the success of getting any communications um campaign to be successful. The ones that worked were the ones that had the most compelling and active individuals communicating um the ideas that you were trying to get across. Um increasingly we started to I started to um see interviewing them to get them to articulate those ideas and get really confident about how they were putting them out as key to making um a client program um work. Um and that gradually grew into um uh I think uh you know real expertise in understanding how to get ideas out of people and then helping them to articulate them and then sometimes to helping them to then then polish up and frame, write and create content around those ideas.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

So you've said the phrase thought leadership is one of the most misunderstood terms in the business. What do people get most wrong?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Oh, it is completely abused as a term thought. Thought leadership, um uh I think the main problem is that people really start thinking about it in the wrong place because it is really uh it's not about the individual, it's about their audience. And uh too many people approach thought leadership as how can I use thought leadership to help me, me and my career, me in my in my business, me to sell, um, sell, sell what I'm selling. Um the reality is though that it's uh it's about a knowledge transfer, it's about a value transfer. And that value transfer has to be from you to them, not trying to accrue value to you. Because if you try to do that, it comes across as very inauthentic, it tends to be coloured with self-interest, which when it's a commercial message is all tends to have those undercurrents of sales, and you can spot it a mile off. Um, it most thought leadership, you know, in in certainly in business is is advertising and sales messaging in disguise, or it's an attempt to simply jump into a debate, you know, sort of um uh to create filler content for your social feeds or for your blogs. And as I say, to me, that's all starting in the wrong place.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yes, so it's start with your audience and consider how you can fulfil your audience's needs rather than it's actually what I hear is take your ego out of it, rather than it be a big thing of here am I with all these fantastic ideas, come listen to me. That's not what it's about at all. It's about what can I contribute, what does my audience need? What am I learning and understanding that I can share that my audience can benefit from?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Absolutely. It's it's uh, I mean, to me, the the word insight again is over over abused, but but actually it's it's um has a lot uh wrapped up in it. If you can sort of think about what what insight is it that I want this audience to walk away with after they've heard from me, read what I've read, you're you're in the right zone. Um if you think what are they going to do, what are they going to buy, what are they going to change, you're kind of in the starting in the wrong place.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Great. So that's a really clear distinction from my perspective, and it's quite refreshing to hear it said out loud, actually, because I think people do misinterpret what it's about. So when you think about today's thought leaders, so what comes to my mind from the female point of view is Breni Brown and Mel Robbins, more recently Mel Robbins, she's only been around last year or so. Those are really the only two female ones that immediately come to mind for me. Why are there still so fewer women?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I don't know whether some of it's got to do with that that ego word that you you mentioned a minute uh uh uh a little while ago. Um women should be thought leaders, could be thought leaders, and there are no shortage of um smart women with with brilliant ideas. So um something is getting getting in the way of that. In reality, you know, somebody could be a thought leader as long as they have something that they know or understand or see better than others, and I think this is where people like the um Brene Brown or um Martha Lane Fox, or you know, there there are there are uh some great women leaders out there. It's where they have really comprehended that they have something of value to get across. Um lots of women have that have value, it's just they haven't perhaps recognised it in the same way. Um there but there are I mean, I mean there are lots a lot of other reasons why there aren't there simply aren't as many women lead thought leaders who spring to mind.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I look at Brennan Brown, for example, though, it's it's something about the way they've encapsulated and packaged their thinking. Because I mean, she was first known for introducing the whole idea of being vulnerable as a leader and how powerful that was. And what stopped us being vulnerable was our relationship to shame and feeling ashamed. And when that first came out as a thought, was it resonated. So there's something about packaging something that really resonates with your audience, and hence her her, she kind of really rose from that, didn't she?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

She did, uh, you know, and and her TED talk from from that uh original time is is still referenced um by a lot of people today. Um, I'm not sure whether it's just about the packaging, I think it's also about the unpackaging. So what she did was she unpacked that idea of vulnerability, she made it into something that was usable and tangible, which meant that people could um put it in the right place in their minds and start to address it. So leadership teams could pick it up and actually say that, you know, this is something that we we now we get that this is a thing. It wasn't a thing before, it was just it was it was probably seen as a weakness.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Well, it uh in many worlds it still is seen as a weakness, but it's f fortunately she's brought it to light that it isn't a weakness, it's a strength. But I also think it's one of those things that's kind of on the edge of our subconscious that we kind of it's that thing where when she said it, like it's all about being it's like, oh God, of course it is. It all makes sense now. So it's like on the edge of our thinking, but we can't quite s put it into words. And she put it into words for us.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah. I keep going back to the word articulation because I think it I think it is really clear, you know, you have to get things, boil things down to a really clear definition in your own mind before you can get people to engage with with it in theirs. Um, because that way you can then, once you have your central idea, you can um uh voice opinion, you can deliver insight, you can give perspective on it, but it has to be around some kind of solid core. One of the interesting things when you look at somebody like um Brene Brown and and and and a lot of the other sorts of successful women thought leaders is this doesn't just happen. It it's really the people who set out to be a thought leader who become thought leaders. It doesn't happen by magic, it happens by design.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Right. Okay. So there was an intention then behind what they've been doing. So for example, Mel well, Mel Robbins, I can see that really clearly, less so with Brene, because she kind of just suddenly appeared.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah, but with very, very well formed ideas. I mean, it it it when I say intentions, i it that can be as simple as really working down and sitting down and taking the time to think um around your subject.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yes, and of course she's an academic, so she'll have done the research and had time to refine it and really hone it down. Yep. But bringing it back more to the everyday, because they are obviously two women thought leaders that we've mentioned there and have been around for quite some time, a lot of the women I talk to, this is when I'm thinking about the issue of confidence and visibility. So a lot of the women I talk to and work with, particularly those who are based in organizations, find it quite hard to find their voice, partly because they've got their own dialogue going on about I don't want to be seen as arrogant, I don't want to be boastful, all that sort of stuff going on. But also that there are the challenges, and this is a reality, that women do get talked over in meetings, they do suggest ideas that don't get acknowledged and then get taken by somebody else later on. That is a reality and has been proven in research time and again. What's your take on that? And and what would be your advice to those women?

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because the the kind of classic image of being good at this stuff is about being certain, loud, quite charismatic, highly visible, and it skews male, right? It's it really skews male in in the mindset. And I love your uh that vision of of women's having this, women having this in a dialogue. We have a multi-track brain in the way that men don't, and so we're always perhaps distracted by um other things, you know, thoughts of how's this going to come across. I don't think men are nearly as self-critical. They've got an opinion, they voice the opinion, they don't pause to think how are people going to receive this opinion? Women do. We're naturally more uh circumspect and and and perhaps respectful uh uh of other people. Um, we're more collaborative, you know, we won't see that there's there's agreement around things. Uh, and I think that's one of the reasons we don't easily fit that guru on a stage stereotype when it comes to thought leadership. But yeah, I mean the the problem, I think it is confidence. I think there really is a confidence issue when it comes to speaking up in meetings, um, being talked over. It's it's if you don't have that strength and belief in yourself and confidence that you you're you've really thought what about what you're going to say, um it does to hold you back. And I think we also face harsher judgment when we try and we can har face harsher criticism. Uh, you know, there, there, dear. Yep, get back in your box. Um, I mean, I certainly saw it in in corporate uh life. I wasn't in corporate for very long, but uh it's it's burned into my brain how difficult it was in a um a technology business that was uh predominantly male, still heavily predominantly male at that point, just to get a word in edgeways. Because they there's no gap, there's no pause. Men jump in, they don't pause to think, should should I speak here? They're already going. And so the gaps that we're looking for don't happen.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

So women often have to learn to jump in and be more opportunistic, maybe as well, in those situations, and also recognize what they have to contribute does have value. I think that's the most important thing. And I always take the view even just asking a question is a way of getting your voice in the room, so you've got your presence felt. You made a fascinating observation though, now that we're talking about the differences between men and women, um, that men tend to sell their experience while women tend to demonstrate understanding. Can you unpack that a little bit for me?

SPEAKER_00 16:08

It's yeah, I mean it's it's it's a it's a simple way of stating it, because I think there are a number of strands to it. Because men are kind of assumed to be authoritative until they're proved otherwise. And so they can they they don't seem to have any any fear of saying, you know, and and and this is based on my many years of experience in in what it is, because they they all they're having to do is reinforce uh uh an opinion people already probably have. We're talking gross generalities here. Women have to prove their credibility more than men. That is true. I I don't think I don't think that uh any of the positive changes of the past you know sort of couple of decades have changed that underlying thing. Um it's it's as true in trying to climb the corporate ladder as it is in in trying to become a thought leader. It's it's hard to shatter the glass ceiling. We don't, you know, that is true and proven to be true. Otherwise, there would be an even representation of senior managers across all industries, and it's not true. There are still too few female CEOs.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Okay, so that's how things are, and it's been proven that that's how things are. I think what we've got to look at then is how do we keep kind of chipping away at that? Um, and it may take a lot more, maybe a couple more decades before we see any real change on that. I hope it doesn't take as long as that, but it's certainly something to keep building awareness around so that attitudes do start to change. So, how much of becoming influential then, Sue, is about the quality of thinking versus how it's communicated?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

I think both are equally important, but having ideas, as we've said, is is is is in in a funny way not the difficult bit. We all have ideas. Um it's you know, especially when those ideas are formed over years, they formed through experience, they formed through um you observing and gathering evidence um and so on. The ideas, they do have to be strong and robust, and you you have to make sure that they are so. Thought leadership falls down when it's not credible, you know, when it's not backed by something that could be knowledge-backed, opinion-backed, evidence-backed. Sorry, uh knowledge and opinion, uh sorry, knowledge and evidence-backed uh first and opinion-backed second, based on that uh that evidence. Um But the packaging does also matter because the reality is you have to think about the practicality of communication, not just what you're going to say. Great many great ideas have died because people couldn't communicate them. Um we've seen uh many instances of women who've who've been behind major technological breakthroughs, um, uh major breakthroughs in the war, um, and yet their voices were entirely silent. Um it wasn't that the ideas died, it was that the communication died and the recognition did.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yes, and there's also something I remember the the film Hidden Figures, which is all about the women at NASA and the fantastic contribution those women made um to the success of the projects that they had at NASA, and yet they went completely unrecognised until that film came out, really.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah. Yes, and and it's it and so I think um, and and that was obviously that that was highly influenced by um women's role and the expectations of women at that point in history. We should be past that by now. Um but the re you know, in in in reality, it's still hard to get your ideas over, no matter who you are. Practical things like get how do you get this to the audience that needs to hear it have to be thought through. What's it going to take to see the change of thinking or um uh encourage people towards a change of behavior? Um, how will we really start a debate around this? This debate should be happening. How do I help make it make it happen, start it going?

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Very good. And I really like the whole thing about keep your opinion until it until second, don't put your opinion up front. Describe the situation, describe the story, the the evidence, and then bring your opinion in second. That sounds powerful.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, I I mean I think once you once you've established um uh a dialogue, um people will assume that uh expertise and and and um but you still have to, yeah. Yeah, opinion, opinion only matters when it's a credible opinion.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

So let's move on to thinking about how we find our voices, because I already talked about women that I work with or come across who find it hard to speak up or to get their voices out there within the organizational context, let alone within the bigger world. Many women worry that they're set they're self-promoting, they don't want to be seen as arrogant or big-headed. Where do you think that comes from from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

I think it uh worrying about being self-promoting comes down to the confidence problem that we've already um highlighted, but it's it's also supported by the fact that very few people are supporting and promoting women, and this is particularly a problem in corporate organizations. There's a lot of mentoring that happens. So women are are mentored, even over mentored, but they are under sponsored, so they get lots of advice, but they don't. Always get the advocacy that they should have internally to actually say, look, this person, this woman, should become our leading voice on something, she is our leading subject matter expert. Um and so if we're not put forward as the experts as often as men, of course, this is not exclusive. Some organizations are great at it, but a lot are not. If we're not put forward as the leading voice on something, if we're not put forward as the subject matter expert, um, it's quite hard because you've got to build it brick by brick yourself.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

So getting that support, getting that sponsorship is fundamental, really. And also to line managers and senior managers, inviting them to consider who are the women on their teams that really could that the organization will benefit and they will benefit from making sure those women's voices are heard as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, I have to say I'm not I'm not really a fan of positive discrimination, but I think there has to be a continual pressure to recognise that everybody has the same value, um, and and there that we still have an imbalance.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I think what I'm alluding to, and maybe I'll make it more explicit, is my experience in organisations, is often the men get the opportunities and the women aren't getting them for all sorts of reasons, but one of them is because there's a lack of awareness as to who are the people I'm putting forward. So I'm in it's an invitation to senior leaders and to line managers to notice are you giving your female team members equal opportunity to the men on your team? Are you putting them forward as much as you're putting the the men forward as well? Because I think it's an unconscious bias often.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Oh yes, I'm sure, I'm sure it's unconscious. I think this is where um personal brand and authentic visibility start to start to cross over, though. And you you you talked about personal brand earlier, but but these things are different, you know. So personal brand is about how people are perceived, how they're positioned, where they show up. Those things we can control. If you you know, then it's establishing uh authentic visibility as an expert, a thought leader, is is is coloured by that, but it's about something different, it's about what they stand for, the values they have, what the knowledge they have. That so that's the only bit that has to be uh backed by the credibility and evidence. Your personal branding is something that you can build and shape and and and promote. That's the bit we have control over.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yes. So you can be much more conscious and intentional around that, and then of course, you build that consciously, and then you also start to build your reputation because it's then about how do you touch people and touch others, and then that might well influence your level of visibility throughout the organization. Because if you're building a credible brand, people will want to know more about what you're up to.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Absolutely. Personal branding and your visibility, your authenticity, your potential for thought leadership are inextricably linked. They're two sides of the same coin. Um you just have to kind of recognize them and address them. You need a plan for both. What would that plan look like? Um I have um I have a coaching model which is which is all about igniting those both both sides of those. Um you need to sit down and really extract and think about um all the different contributing factors that go into your your personal brand. What you know, why are you the person you are, where you are, how you're how you want that to evolve very differently from okay, now what's my knowledge base, what's my experience, what's my value? The two things often come together in how people uh are trying to promote them their own careers, that you know, there are because thought leadership is is actually something that has enormous value to organizations. And so you marry that up with uh you know a good plan to build your personal brand, you can actively support a career uh progression, make yourself attractive to your current employer, also to potential future employers. This is where external thought leadership starts to become valuable.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yes, I well, I can think of clients I've worked with where part of the program has been about building their external influence as well, not just for themselves, but on behalf of the organization they're working for as well. So they're building their own reputation, but they're also building the organization they're working for as well and becoming much more conscious of that. This is all fascinating stuff. So I'm really enjoying this conversation. So if somebody listening today has deep expertise but still feels invisible, where should they begin? You mentioned a plan. Should they begin with a plan, but does it happen before the plan?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

I I think it happens, uh it happens a little earlier in in making sure you know what you want. Because no plan is not something that we, you know, in in marketing, uh we always talk about the fact that if you don't know what the goal is, you you you cannot create the clear objectives, you cannot know whether you're achieving them, you cannot work out the paths or the strategy of how you're going to get there. So I think it it definitely starts with that. And then yes, it needs it needs some practical um practical practical steps. It starts internally. Where you know, where where do I stand? You know, what who am I? You know, it starts with some really fundamental stuff, which when you start exploring this with certain with senior male um uh leaders, they're always a bit taken aback that it we go back to who they are and their motivations and how they see the world. And they're going, yes, but I you know I want to be an expert in AI. You know, uh it it it's more fundamental than that. So I think it has to start there.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Very good. Okay. Now we've already talked a lot about the biases that go on that affect women stepping forward and that might affect their confidence, etc. But I would like to look in a bit more depth into the systems that mean that women's voices are kept quiet, really. So when it comes to networking, media representation, and whose voices get amplified, what are some of the less obvious barriers that women women face?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

I'll I'll pick them, I'll I'll talk about the media first because that I mean that's obviously that's been central to my world for many years. Um now there have been studies done on this. So so you in the media, um, there was a uh a Reuters study which suggested that the media promotes male experts about two to one versus female experts, which I thought was quite interesting. I asked myself uh and had to go looking to say actually how biased is the um the leadership within media, editorial roles, you know, is it that we're still suffering from male overload of male editors? Actually, it isn't. It's up to about 50% of senior UK media roles are female, which I find extraordinary if we are still looking to men to provide the expert comments. So that has to come down partly to who's available. You know, there are there are systems out there which are built databases which are designed purely to help the media find experts. And I suspect, but I I I I haven't been able to to um dig into it, I suspect that there are simply more male commentators out there listed than female commentators on different topics. It'll be something as practical and basic as that, but the names are not there. They can find ten names of an expert on technology X, and only one of them is female. So it takes somebody to actively go, I'd like I'd like to do the female, have the female in. And of course, that's not the way editorial decisions are made.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

So that's the media. Any other invisible barriers that you think get in the way?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

I I think in it so in business, you you you reference networking, and I think that's definitely got uh a bias. Um, networking organizations, networking, the whole concept of it was um was built uh uh a long time ago. It's emerged over a long time, at a time when you know, sort of men's role in business was more dominant than than um far more dominant than than it is now. So I find it unsurprising that a lot of the networking groups and organizations, um, and I've tried out almost every single one that I can I can find, are terribly male in how they're structured. There is one, trying to think how to how to describe this, a notoriously clique-like um uh networking organization franchise that is nationwide, very strong. You have these groups in every town and city in the UK. And it was absolutely it was set up by a man, it was built up by by men, it has become a lot more female in in the membership. If you go to a group, you'll find uh more women there than ever before. But the whole thing is based on a how big is my pile of referrals um model, rather than an idea of collaborating and helping one another. It's a very male, you know, how how mine's bigger than yours kind of kind of view. Um women tend to therefore be more active, and I see more enjoyment, more engagement in more open general networking uh sessions. Women thrive in those because they can um be themselves uh in the struct very highly structured networking ones. I I see them definitely sort of pushed into a secondary position.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

I definitely can concur with that because that's my experience, particularly those networking groups where A, you had to be there for seven o'clock in the morning, which usually meant you know leaving the house at about six o'clock. And if you've got children, you know, as a single parent, how do you sort out the childcare and all that sort of stuff? Massive nightmare there, but also the whole 60-second here's me in a in a 60-second snippet of who I am, I think that is so in all to me. That's really inauthentic.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

It is inauthentic. It can, however, be very good practice. Uh, you know, it there is there is something to be said, and we always talk about, you know, sort of everybody needs an elevator pitch in, you know, to say who they who they are really succinctly and clearly in a way that's going to make them stand out and be remembered. Um, those types of groups are very good for making you do that. You and and I I remember many, many times I would practice my spiel in the car on the way over while still sort of rubbing the sleep out of my my eyes. You and I both know the group we're talking about, it is notorious for this. Um, but all the breakfast clubs have actually have the same sort of, and many uh many organizations have the same challenges. I gave I gave up on um on that particular membership after two years, a getting very little from it, and secondly, because um I got up, my shoes had gone mouldy because we were living in a caravan while our house was being done up. Um the shoes had gone moldy and I just threw them in the bed, got back in in the bin, and got back into bed, and I never went back. I thought that's it, that that just sums it up how little I want to go to this.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

I also think though, the the the contrast to what we talk about for women like to network differently. They're much more relational, so open spaces where they can meet people, have proper in-depth conversations, build those relationships, that is the sort of networking that tends to work for women rather than this stand up and deliver immediately type networking.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yes, I've also seen uh I've also seen women thrive in kind of round table type networking uh groups, as long as they aren't don't have the unfortunate experience of there being somebody in the table or more than one people on the table who tend to talk over them because that you it's it we get exactly the same problem as occurs in meetings uh in those in those scenarios. But but um uh round table networking events tend to be a melting pot that sometimes you know some you win, some you lose. Sometimes you have an amazing session, and other times you walk away from the table going, God, that was an awful group. And it tends to be because you were talked over.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

So let's come back, having explored some of those um invisible biases in a way, very, very subtle biases anyway. Let's come back to the the world of the organization because a lot of our listeners will be working for organizations, they may be senior leaders within those organizations. What responsibility do you think organisers organisations have for creating more diverse thought leaders rather than simply celebrating the same ones?

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I think they absolute they absolutely have a responsibility, um, but they also need to wake up to the fact that they are wasting huge value. You know, the the the wasted brilliance that they have um and the ideas that the women in organize their organization have is an asset that should be celebrated and liberated as much as with men. So why wouldn't they be doing it? Uh it's not just you must do it, but why wouldn't you do it? That's crazy. Thought leadership has real value to organizations. When when when they come across as being uh committed, knowledgeable, um uh uh and and having huge experience of overcoming particular problems, they're at the forefront of a debate on on a pertinent issue that their that their prospects have. It puts them in a much better position. It opens doors for them, it gets them automatically shortlisted, it gets them invited to things. So that you know, that has tangible business um and revenue growth opportunity. You should be looking at every corner and every gender of your organization to unlock that.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

And I and I take the view that you know organizations invest enormous amounts of time and money in recruiting really talented people. So it's like making sure that you support your talent and also capitalise on the thought leadership they're bringing into the organization. That's really important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, it is. Um, and it's just as important to to make sure that all this knowledge and credibility, oh sorry, all this knowledge and experience is surfaced internally as well as externally and captured, because the other the other thing which uh um you know, sort of waste I I see is people letting really smart people emerge and and and thrive and become thought leaders, and then they leave, and all that expertise has gone with them because nobody actually worked at um uh capturing it and and generating the next generation of of experts.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Okay, so there's something there, something there about making sure organizations capitalise on the legacy people are bringing, you know, they don't just let them walk out the door without actually noting what have they brought to the organization, how can we keep it, how can we keep some of that here? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we're gonna move on to being a bit more practical now. If someone wanted to become recognized for their thinking rather than just their job title, what practical advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Well, I've all already said you need to have a plan, you need to to to really sit down and map out what is it that you want to be known for, what is it that you bring to the organization, how could that be leveraged given the right opportunity? There is part of this which is about presenting the um the desire. So so um there is no point having this um desire to become known if you don't tell anybody. Now, I understand some people will will perceive some risk in doing that stepping forward, you know, if you're sticking your head above the parapet, you're saying, I could be doing more, you're saying you're not using me enough. But if your line manager or the head of comms or PR doesn't know that you're an expert in something, or that you really have a you know some wish to become part of an external voice, how can they possibly help you to do so? So there there is that, and I think that you you also have to remember that that there are some fundamental skills that maybe you're not displaying, uh, and that can be as simple as that thing about stepping as you know, sort of um speaking out in meetings about your area of expertise. That's practice, that's practice and its mechanisms. Um I I've I've often talked about the fact that you know when I was in corporate, I would literally practice my uh my lines to break into conversations in meetings in the mirror in the bathroom in the morning, because I found myself defaulting to, excuse me, do you know, may I? Could I inject a thought here? It's like, why am I asking for permission? So I had to drive some of those requesting um words out. I I know because I've been told this came across as really aggressive. Um, I got a reputation for being quite aggressive. Um uh, but actually, uh, you know, we're told we need to be more aggressive, but not too much, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

More assertive, but not too much, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

And uh but I'm also fascinated what lines would help you interrupt the meeting or get your voice heard in the meeting that aren't asking permission? What were what were some of those lines?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Oh, I I can't remember, but they they were all similar. They they were all about um removing the the the the the question uh from it. It was I have a view on this. It was it was more statement than question.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yes, yes. And then that was classically seen as you being aggressive when you did that.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Because sometimes that statement was that's wrong, that you're not seeing this correctly rather than I'm sorry, I think you've got that a bit wrong.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Okay, really interesting because women do, when women are more assertive, they get seen as aggressive. Whereas men tend to get seen as leaders. So it's it's really interesting. And another nice little bias sneaking its way in there. So, what habits separate people whose ideas spread from those whose ideas stay hidden?

SPEAKER_00 41:58

The habits well what one one is that one about practicing. Get in get in the habit of of of practicing before you go into in into meetings. And I think that was the that was the probably the best habit that that I I had. Um you need to keep reminding yourself that um you know becoming the expert, becoming the the leader on something is not about brilliance. It's based on hard work. And if you're doing that, then you know what what would stop you? So I think it's it the these are habits, these are mindset habits more than they are um action habits, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

I also um, and this is only because of the feedback I've received over time, which is reframe it rather than reframe it as bragging, reframe it as an act of generosity because you're actually giving something. If you're updating somebody on how you're getting on the project, if you're sharing about a new idea, you've you've looked at how to tackle a customer issue or whatever, you are helping other people, you know, by sharing those ideas and those insights. That's an act of generosity, it's not about bragging.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Absolutely, and it goes right back to the top of our conversation, which is about thought leadership being a value exchange. You're giving the value um to other people, that's where they will perceive the value in you.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

So, Sue, looking ahead, what would success look like if we truly had equal representation when it came to thought leadership?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

I suppose it would just be what we see, wouldn't it? It would be, you know, what we see in in because the reality is women women change the world constantly. We're always doing it. But I'd like us to be seen to be doing it. Um, more celebration. Uh if we get this right, then uh if people say sort of name a thought leader, they're not going to say ew Elon Musk or Richard Branson, the the um um archetypical guru on a stage, they're going to say not just Brene Brown, but but other other names, because her name is almost always the only one that comes up when you ask people. And and it's not all about soft subjects. I want I want to see women as the knowledged experts in the sciences, in all all the sort of STEM subjects where we still lag behind, not just the experts in um emotional things. It's it's it's it that there's no balance there at the moment and there and there really should be. And I think there's work to do in the media to enable that we you know we could kind of do with those female editors, you know, the 49% uh giving giving us a bit of a hand to support this cause, but not disproportionately. But I don't think they've realized it yet.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Well maybe because they're in a system that that historically has worked in a certain way. And so you know they maybe don't are appre they don't appreciate the system that they're within.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

So what's one conversation you hope more leaders start having so I am increasingly hearing that leadership teams are thought are talking about things like thought leadership. They're saying this is something we must do. But instead of thinking about how do we do this, I want them to be thinking about who do we have much more deeply because I think at the moment it's secondary they don't look at the people they look at the subjects they want to want to want to win rather than looking internally and if because if they look they're going to see um women as well as men with great ideas and great potential.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

And what are your final thoughts you'd like to impart to our listeners today?

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Oh I I don't know if I have anything particularly profound but but you know leadership is is uh and thought leadership is about standing out without worrying about it, without having qualms and concerns I think it's about not being afraid to say what you think even if it seems a bit risky.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Yes. So being able to go with that sometimes we feel uncertain but go with the uncertainty and still say what you think is important to say. Yeah. Very good thank you so much. And Sue, how can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Well I'm um LinkedIn is is often the best way to connect with me. I'm lucky to have a uh a a name where there's only one of me um and I love to um connect with people and have conversations from there.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

They can also book uh book appointments with me from the same place so great thank you so much for joining us and I've really appreciated some of the insights that you've highlighted for us today and how important it is for just in leadership to open our eyes to all the possibilities of the people that we work with and what they might be thinking and what their ideas are. It's been a great conversation Mary thanks thank you so much for listening to the She Leads Collective podcast. If this episode resonated with you follow the show or share it with a friend and leave a quick review below or leave us a comment. Change happens through conversation so let's keep this one going. Listen out for the next episode and join me as we keep lifting the lid on the stories that matter. Take care and keep leading with heart