LARA Living Room
Inside stories and real conversations from the Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs. LARA Living Room explores how regulation works, why it matters, and the people making it happen.
LARA Living Room
How Regulations Work
We break down how laws become rules, who enforces them, and how LARA makes sure they protect the public.
Administrative Rulemaking System (ARS) – https://ars.apps.lara.state.mi.us/
Hello, Hello, welcome to episode three of the LARA Living Room. I am Anastasha Osborn, your host, and today we're breaking down something that impacts every Michigander, regulations. And specifically, we're going to talk about how LARA fits into the big picture. We'll answer questions like what branch of government is LARA a part of, who makes laws and who makes rules, and then of course, how are these enforced? To help me explain all of this, I'm going to be joined by Adam Sandoval, who is LARA's chief legal officer and deputy director, as well as Paige Foltz, who's the director LARA's Office of Policy and Legislative Affairs. So fill up your coffee, grab a seat, and get comfortable because you are now in the L iving Room. Let's get started with some introductions. Adam, welcome to the LARA Living Room. Can you tell us a little bit about your role as Chief Legal Officer and Deputy Director and how your office supports the department's regulatory work?
Adam Sandoval:Yes, thank you so much, Anastasha, for having Paige and I. I have the privilege of being a member of Team LARA and working in an important position that has dual roles. As Chief Legal Officer, I'm responsible for overseeing department-wide risk and compliance. Thank you so much for joining us.
Anastasha Osborn:Incredible. Thank you for being here. And Paige, welcome. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your background?
Paige Fults:Yes, thanks for having me. My background is very similar to Director Brown's, how he discussed in the second episode of The LARA Living Room. As a child, I was a self-proclaimed political nerd. How Director Brown enjoyed watching the State of the Union, I myself would sit and watch states light up when it came time to the presidential campaign. So I've always really, really had a fond interest in state government, national government, anything that had to do with politics and different pieces along those lines. As far as my career, I started it just up the road at the House of Representatives. And then I worked the majority of my time at the Michigan Health and Hospital Association in the advocacy division there as their senior director for regulatory affairs for about 14 years. Then I made the jump over to LARA in January of 2022. Incredible.
Anastasha Osborn:And can you share just a quick overview of your office, OPLA, specifically and what your office does and then how does that fit into
Paige Fults:LARA? Yes, we monitor proposed legislation and regulations that impact LARA and the bureaus and then our state licensee holders. We work with members of the legislature and regulatory entities and stakeholders. We communicate LARA feels about this proposed legislation and we identify potential amendments to that legislation. Our office genuinely believes that each lawmaker wants to make a positive impact on Michigan. I think the big piece is there's a difference on what their priorities are and how to get there.
Anastasha Osborn:Yeah, I agree. And for those who don't know, how... small but mighty, is your team?
Paige Fults:There is a total of seven of us, but we do both law and rules within our office. So those individuals do not just work on the legislative proposals. We house the regulatory affairs office. With that, the regulatory affairs officer, and then we have a JCAR specialist who also interacts and works with JCAR and ensures that rules and the process go smoothly and can answer questions for Jay Carr along with myself at the Hospital Association. I worked on rules when I was over there too. So we do both.
Anastasha Osborn:That's incredible. And I know we use a lot of acronyms here, so I'm going to make you pause and tell us what JCAR stands for. I'm
Paige Fults:sorry. Yes. It stands for the Joint Committee of Administrative Rules.
Anastasha Osborn:Yes. Thank you. I know we have some listeners out there who are going to say, what is JCAR? Because we use a lot of acronyms. So if we say something, listeners, and you don't know what it means, please let us know and we'll be happy to drop maybe an acronyms list of some kind. Yes.
Paige Fults:Joint Committee of Administrative Rules. So sorry about that. Yes, acronyms are a lot easier when you have a mouthful.
Anastasha Osborn:Awesome. Thank you. And Adam, I want to switch over to you really quickly. Let's kind of talk a little bit about outlining some of the basics, right? So what branch of government is LARA a part of? We get this question a lot, usually for our new employees as they kind of come in, and they don't really know where we fall. And then Also with that, what does that mean really for the type of work that we do for Michiganders?
Adam Sandoval:Certainly. So LARA is part of the executive branch of state government. And as a department within the executive branch, this means that LARA is responsible for implementing or enforcing the laws that the legislature enacts. For example, LARA is responsible for administering the public health code and the occupational code, which establish licensing and regulation requirements for numerous professions and occupations like doctors No, that's
Anastasha Osborn:actually a good point. I know we kind of talked about a little bit in our first episodes, kind of talking about all the different occupations and licensees that we have. So that's great to just know that there's a lot of different codes that we are overseeing as well. I'm kind of going to jump into a little bit. some technicalities maybe possibly and that is kind of like once a law is passed or maybe we want to start before then I keep thinking of like the school of rock is that what it's called right school of rock like how a bill becomes a law so Paige once a law is passed really what happens next what are those next steps and then how does LARA turn that law into something actionable so our office actually engages with experts that are within our bureaus through each step of the legislative process we share information information the entire time with the legislature. The goal is to ensure when a bill becomes a law, it reflects what the department is able to implement by the time it becomes a law. So bureaus have had time to prepare for administering the new requirements for it. And also when laws are crafted, frequently bureaus are granted along with their professional licensing boards, the ability to make rules. Rule sets provide more detailed information that laws simply do not have the space to dive into. This is another step in the governing process that allows for public input. As you had mentioned earlier, when we discussed our team, and that is something that our team, my team here handles, OPLA, we handle the rules and, you know, the legislative process we work on. A question just popped into my head. And again, I might be going off script here a little bit, but you kind of mentioned professional licensing boards. Can you talk a little bit more about what those are for those who may not know that some of our bureaus do have boards?
Paige Fults:Yes. So the professional licensing boards are housed within our Bureau of Professional Licensing. And those are boards that are responsible for ensuring that rules are, they're responsible for making not only rules through the rulemaking process, but they also handle implementing and they, you know, run board meetings. They have some of the disciplinary actions that run through them. Adam might be able to speak a bit more about the process through them. The boards are actually set up and designed through statutory requirements. Adam, anything you want to add?
Adam Sandoval:Yes, I would add that the board's primary function is to add subject matter expertise to the program and to the process. So the board composition And to Paige's point, you know, some boards are charged with doing more actions or decisions than others, but ultimately it's a group of officials who are typically from the industry or have experience in that area.
Anastasha Osborn:All right, Paige. So if I'm a licensee or a concerned citizen, how do I get involved or speak up during that rulemaking process?
Paige Fults:I would love it if more individuals take part in the rulemaking process. The first way would be joining a rulemaking work group. The next would be take place during the public hearing process. So rulemaking work groups actually do take place before public hearings. They are a series of meetings that individuals can attend and provide input on. before public hearings. There also is an opportunity to submit comments regarding the draft rule sets before that. And then the public comment period at the public hearing is another great way to speak up to have your voice heard. You can stay up to date on the rules by signing up for email alerts on LARA's website for all LARA rule sets. There is a public website that houses all rule sets that are any agencies, that any agency or department is currently working on, not just LARA's. And it is the Administrative Rulemaking System, or the ARS. Anastasha, I made sure to let people know what the acronym was there for you. You can look up current drafts, public hearing information and dates, and a status update on rules. And all this information I can give to you and you can provide in the podcast show notes for listeners.
Anastasha Osborn:No, that'd be perfect. We will drop those in the show notes so people can easily access that link. I think it'll be great, especially for people who do want to have their voices heard. And you can get out there and you can know when different rule sets are being presented and for you to have your voice heard and get out there and make a difference too. Adam, let's talk to you a little bit about once a rule is actually finalized and who is responsible for making sure that it's followed and what happens if it isn't.
Adam Sandoval:Once a rule becomes effective, the agency that made the rule is responsible for ensuring that it's followed. If a rule isn't followed, the agency typically has many ways it works with a person or an entity to obtain compliance, such as education and outreach on the requirements of the rule, settlement conferences where negotiations are had to ensure compliance, or to take more strict measures like issuing fines, summary suspensions, or even license revocations.
Anastasha Osborn:And for those who maybe don't know, and maybe you can just elaborate a little bit more, LARA does have various bureaus and agencies within our department itself. And so when we're talking about who's in charge of enforcing, does this come down to specifically those bureaus and agencies? And then when does it get escalated to you exactly?
Adam Sandoval:Yes, it does come down to the individual or a particular agency or bureau tasked and charged with administering that particular statute or program. So they will initiate an investigation, an inspection, make a decision. Depending on the nature of the violation, some of the more significant violations can be escalated to my attention. And then what I typically do with those types of actions or decisions are just ensure consistency. We'll look at past precedent, and then also we'll brief the executive office as well.
Anastasha Osborn:We're still kind of on this rules, right? Talking about these rules and these rule sets. So what happens specifically when a rule is outdated or it's no longer serving its purpose anymore? And how do we really go about changing it?
Paige Fults:Lawmakers grant LARA, the statutory authority, to update rules through the rulemaking process.
Anastasha Osborn:Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? What does that mean for the public? What does that mean for LARA
Paige Fults:employees? So I'm going to make sure I don't use more acronyms here for you. There's a law that regulates the rulemaking process. It is called the Administrative Procedures Act or the APA. And that is what you have to follow when doing the rulemaking process. So lawmakers have the ability to hand over the authority to some of our bureaus to provide rulemaking. So in that, they are allowed to use their discretion. If a law is out, I mean, if a rule, I'm sorry, if a rule is outdated, they are allowed to resend it as needed. And then also during that time, If a lawmaker, you know, and a bill moves through the legislative process and a new law is signed and it is outdated, the Bureau then is required to update the rules at that time to ensure that outdated rules are now, you know, following what the new law is to ensure compliance.
Anastasha Osborn:Okay, that makes a lot more sense. So again, I wanted to build a picture. So when we're talking about Talking about a bill is presented and then becomes a law?
Paige Fults:Yes.
Anastasha Osborn:Okay. And then from a law, where do we go from there? Then we make our rule set?
Paige Fults:If it's granted in the law that we have the authority to make a rule set, then yes.
Anastasha Osborn:Okay. And then from there, if they decide to change anything, then they update the rules to match whatever the updates to the law is. Is this correct? Okay. Yes. I'm trying to simplify it because I know when I started working for state government, this was one of the hardest parts, one of the biggest, the hardest concepts I think for me to really grasp. And it was really trying to figure out what is a law and how does it become a law? And then what are all these different rule sets? just trying to understand that process itself. And then how, just to kind of simplify it for people who don't work in everyday, you know, you and Adam get the pleasure of working in that world. And so for you guys, it's like second nature, right? You're like, well, yes, I know this. It would almost, the best analogy I can think of is thinking about when, let's say you run track, right? You're an Olympian, you run track. Running is so different from how like you and I might run versus how, an all-star olympian athlete will run right there's different techniques there's different things that they know how to do how to you know lift their knees or there's like all these weird things right that we don't really understand because they're so technical and i know maybe it's a far-fetched analogy but it's kind of the same concept right we have we know the concept of like there are some laws out there that we have to follow but we don't know the intricate details of how those laws are becoming a law and how they can be changed how they can be updated how they impact us or how they might change in the future and just that whole process. So I'd appreciate you both being here and kind of giving us that behind the scenes, you know, just peek behind the curtain of what that looks like and simplifying it for, you know, the public. And then also, like I mentioned, for also our law employees who do work here, but they may not totally understand exactly how their job is impacted by all these different laws and rules. So I think I'll just open it up if there's anything else that you guys would like to close with. Anything else you'd like to add that you would like, you know, either the public to know about regulations or laws or rules or anything of that?
Adam Sandoval:Yes, I would like to add that it's a great discussion. And, you know, kind of taking a step back, when I think of law versus rule, it's plain language, big picture, the law really establishes the what, and then the rule establishes the how. So, for example, the legislature makes the laws, it's going to establish the what, for example, thou shall individual shall be licensed to be a doctor. And then we go over to the rule and the agency that makes the rule will tell us how that individual should obtain license. So it'll establish the qualifications, the education, the training components, et cetera. So kind of bigger picture, start with that mindset, and that might help. You kind of distinguish the distinction between a law and a rule. And then kind of shifting gears on compliance, we talked a little bit earlier about what happens if someone doesn't follow a rule. LARA is big into educating before we regulate. And one of the four strategic goals that we have is compliance through education and consultation. So it's this notion that it's more cost effective and certainly increases safety and health for our licensees to comply So the more that we can educate and train and consult with our licensees on the front end of the process, the better off everybody is.
Anastasha Osborn:Yeah, I agree. And I love it. That is one of our biggest things, one of our our strategic goals. And I also feel like we we use like the phrase, right, the quote of educate before we regulate. We use that all the time. And it is really important to us here at LARA that that we do that and that we help licensees understand what it is that they are required to do and what they're not allowed to do. Right. So, yes. Well, anything else before we close out?
Paige Fults:Yes, I was just going to say, I want to make sure that individuals understand that the legislature really is a partner in providing licensure and regulation. You know, they are one of the key pieces to ensure that things do run smoothly. Sometimes we do hit a bump in the road and we do need updates and improvements made and lawmakers are who we need to turn on to make those adjustments and improvements. And without them and the stakeholders and the partnerships that we have with everyone and those individuals, it wouldn't be possible. So our office greatly appreciates As I'd mentioned before, we want more public input, and we do appreciate the amount of effort that stakeholders put in, that lawmakers put in, and everyone to make the state government tick. So just a thank you for all the effort that comes from not only our state employees, but those lawmakers and stakeholders that take the time to provide input and work with us on legislation. Yes,
Anastasha Osborn:I agree. Thank you, Paige, for saying that. Wow, I didn't know that that's how that worked. You are not alone. As I mentioned kind of throughout the episode, I always learn something new throughout these. So I appreciate this and I appreciate the behind the scenes process and why it's so essential and really just the impact that it's going to have on all of us here in Michigan. So be sure to follow the LARA Living Room for more behind the scenes stories from people like Paige and Adam who get to make it all happen. And I will close out with from our living room to yours. We'll see you next time.
