How Legal Expertise Supports Smart Regulation

Legal doesn’t have to mean complicated. In this episode, Host Anastasha chats with Nick, Director of LARA’s Legal Affairs Office (LAO), about how legal expertise supports collaboration, good decision making, and smart regulation. 

Transcript

Anastasha Osborn 0:19

Welcome back to the LARA Living Room. I'm your host, Anastasia Osborne, and today we're talking about a part of LARA that many people may not interact with directly, but they still play a critical role in how state government works, and that is our legal affairs office. In season one, if you are a member, we focused on the Freedom of Information Act or FOIA, but today's conversation is going to be more about the broader role of legal expertise that we have here at LARA. So we're going to talk more about how that supports our teams, it strengthens decision making, and really ultimately helps us deliver smart, effective regulation for the people of Michigan. So joining me today is Nick Gobbo, and he is the Director of LARA's Legal Affairs Office. We also refer to them as LAO, so you may hear us say that a couple of times throughout. And we're going to be talking about what LAO does, how legal functions, how they have legal functions, and how they partner across our department and why that work really matters, even if you, as the you know, public or even internal team don't really see it. So as you know, go ahead, get comfortable because you are now in the LARA living room. All right. Hi, Nick.

Nick Gobbo 1:23

Hey, morning, Anastasha. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me.

Anastasha Osborn 1:26

Yeah, thank you. So let's just jump in with kind of, I think, basics, right? Like when people hear legal affairs, they often think FOIA, like our last episode that we did, or maybe even enforcement. Um so can you kind of start off with just a high-level picture of what the Legal Affairs Office actually does?

Nick Gobbo 1:43

So we do actually a lot of things in our Legal Affairs Office. So we cover uh several different broad areas. Um, I guess to start with, as we talked some about during the last episode about our office, um, we house several formal roles uh within our office, including not only, of course, the FOIA coordinator role, um, but we also house the ADA coordinator role, litigation coordinator, and uh language access co-coordinator. So um it's kind of a hodgepodge of those roles. Um, but we also provide various legal and compliance services to our internal teams at Lara and assist them um, you know, with their work from more of a legal compliance perspective.

Anastasha Osborn 2:31

Okay. So who are you typically partnering with across LARA? Is it all of our different bureaus and agencies, or do you feel like there's certain ones that you work with the most?

Nick Gobbo 2:39

Uh generally speaking, yes. I mean, I work pretty closely with most of our agencies uh within the department. Um certainly some of our larger agencies are folks that I'll uh consult with and interact with on a more regular basis, such as our Bureau of Professional Licensing, for example. Um lot of our central teams as well. I provide support for them too, uh, you know, including our Financial Administrative Services Bureau. Um, you know, I do a lot of uh contracting work, for example, with them and assist them with those processes. Um, but it really uh is quite a broad role. Uh we assist various agencies in the department at different levels and at different times.

Anastasha Osborn 3:22

Yeah. And I think we talked about this on the last episode when we we had you and Andrea on um how big is your team again? Remind us.

Nick Gobbo 3:29

We are a very small team. Um so we have four folks on our team total, um, you know, three of which are generally speaking full-time FOIA. So um we have a very small team.

Anastasha Osborn 3:44

Yeah. Yeah, I think I remember Andrea saying, like, well, there's not very many of us. And I was like, yeah, that's a pretty small team.

Nick Gobbo 3:49

Uh we're very efficient. You know, on the on the FOIA side, I'll say again, you know, we process anywhere between 11 and 12,000 FOIA requests per year on average. Uh so we're a very efficient team.

Anastasha Osborn 4:00

Yeah, that's awesome. Um, and I can relate, um, my communications team is also small but mighty. That's why I always say I'm like, We're small but mighty. We get a lot of things done. Um okay, so one thing I think I hear a lot internally is that people aren't always sure when they should loop legal in. So how would you say, um, you know, from LAO's standpoint, um, when teams are developing either programs or initiatives, when should they be looping you guys in?

Nick Gobbo 4:25

That's a great question, Anastasha. And and I will say, when in doubt, uh try to loop us in early. Um, you know, it's helpful, I think, to have those perspectives um, you know, early in a process, especially when you're looking at something that might be more of a novel uh program or something that we're exploring. Um, it's helpful to have those perspectives, just like any other perspective that you might be looking in. I mean, or or seeking uh you know advice or guidance on um, you know, there might be HR issues, for example, that might come up. So, you know, folks might be thinking, all right, well, we know we got to loop in our HR team, or there might be a communications component, so they might loop in your team. Um, but you know, certainly from a legal perspective, I think it's helpful to integrate that perspective early in developing your processes and new programs and procedures so that we can try to help you know craft and guide our programs from that compliance perspective to ensure that you know we're we're identifying what might be issues early on, um, which ultimately is going to be more efficient.

Anastasha Osborn 5:37

Yeah. And I mean I'm gonna say this, and correct me if I'm wrong. I s it safe to say, I mean, without timing-wise, is it just always a safe bet to just loop you in, even if people are unsure if there's any need for legal?

Nick Gobbo 5:49

I would say yes. I mean, when in doubt, it's it's good to get that perspective. And I will say too that, you know, some of our teams in the department um, you know, do have um folks that, you know, are are attorneys and um you know who are are trained um, you know, to have you know a good uh aptitude for issue spotting and things like that. And um, you know, certainly our our teams and our different bureaus rely heavily uh on you know that expertise and and that's helpful. Um but it's I think it's always good to try to make sure that you integrate your legal teams as early as possible. And some of our agencies have that extra support and some don't. So when in doubt, it's good to reach out and ask and make sure that you're getting that perspective early on in the process.

Anastasha Osborn 6:38

Yeah. And I want to just step back really quickly. So we are kind of talking about programs or initiatives um where your team might have to step in. Are there any examples that you can give, you know, legally? Are you allowed to give any examples, I guess, of programs or initiatives um or even maybe a hypothetical of like a program where you might have to review it before, you know, they start to run with the program, whether it's in the really early beginning stages when they're just kind of having the conversations, or is it right before you know they actually launch this program or initiative?

Nick Gobbo 7:15

Yeah, that's a great question, Anastasha. And trying to think of some specifics that I could get into. Um, you know, one that that comes to mind, um, you know, that I could probably elaborate on a little bit more, uh, I I think is a good example is you know, Lara has um been looking for ways of trying to boost participation are skill trades. You know, that's I think that's no secret. Um, you know, skill trades um is very important. It's very important work. Um, and there's a shortage in Michigan. Um, so one of the things that Lara has explored is potentially looking at um job shadowing programs and things like that and trying to work with and partner with um schools and and technical programs um in the area to see if there's a way that we could come up with some sort of um program that would you know try to encourage younger folks from getting into these very important careers. Um and you know, with that, you know, that's something, for example, I've been engaged with to try to look at what does that look like? What how do we try to structure a program like that? And um, you know, it's something that you know we're still in the process of developing. Um, you know, that said, uh, I think that's a good example of something. And there's a lot of issues that go into that. How do you structure something? How do you work uh with partnering with um you know different programs and schools? And um, you know, that's sort of a of an example, I think. Yeah. Um, you know, is helpful to think of, you know, the the various compliance and legal issues or obstacles that might be there and how do you try to overcome them?

Anastasha Osborn 8:52

Yeah, no, that's a great example. Um, and for our listeners who maybe aren't aware, we um are in partnership with other state departments, um, and it's called the My Trades Partnership. So that's just kind of a bunch of different departments that all came together to kind of really lift up and shine a little bit of extra light onto those skill trades. And um one of the really exciting things is we'll actually have an episode where we'll kind of talk a little bit more about that. So everyone will have to stay tuned until there. But I appreciate you kind of you know talking about that because I think that is kind of one of those programs, definitely, where we could see some legal assistance. Um, the other thing, mostly here at Lara, we talk so much, I think, about smart effective regulation. And so I want to talk a little bit about where does legal expertise fit into kind of that idea? And, you know, can you really explain, I think, in a way that, you know, especially for our listeners who don't work in state government, that they can kind of understand that a little better?

Nick Gobbo 9:46

Uh absolutely, and that's a great question. Um, you know, really as regulators, um, you know, when you look at the legal landscape, it kind of permeates through every aspect of what we do. Yeah. Um, you know, we are regulators at heart in this department. Um, you know, so with that, uh, you know, we do a lot of work with, for example, developing rule sets, administrative rules. The legislature gives our department and and many departments promulgation authority uh to promulgate uh administrative regulations. Um, for example, we spend a lot of time developing those rule sets and wordsmithing things and trying to make sure that we're um you know striking a balance between the various interests when we're developing those regulations. Uh so that's just one example, but um really I think it permeates throughout everything that we do, that that legal perspective, because again, at our hearts, we are regulators in our department.

Anastasha Osborn 10:45

What would you say, and this is kind of a funny question that has come up, but what would you say to people who maybe perceive that legal slows things down?

Nick Gobbo 10:54

Uh you know, I will say that's a that's a great question, Anastasha. And um, you know, admittedly, it it probably does to some extent, you know, just like reason. Yeah, just like any other um, you know, any time that you're seeking perspective of another area where, you know, sometimes it's an afterthought, right? Admittedly, um, you know, a legal team um or any team that's brought in to evaluate something and offer their perspective, it's it's gonna be another step in the process. So it will naturally uh slow things down. But in the end, it can be a lot more efficient, though, to bring in your legal team early. Um and I think that that is also the case here at Lara where you could try to identify issues. Um, because again, you know, everyone ha has a different perspective with how they do their work. And and sometimes um, you know, your perspective um might be more limited to a specific subject matter, um, and you might not be able to see other issues. And even myself, you know, as an attorney, I'm reaching out to other areas and getting perspectives uh on the work that I do. Um so I think it's important to do that. I think overall it actually creates more efficiency when you're looping in a team early and integrating those perspectives. Um otherwise, you know, you could be looking at um needing to backtrack at a later date if um you don't loop in those perspectives. And so yeah, it certainly can slow things down at times, especially when you know you have a small team like my team, for example. Um I'm not gonna say that we're the fastest by any stretch. Um, but you know, I do think that the work is very important.

Anastasha Osborn 12:32

Good. You kind of mentioned you you'll reach out to other partners. Um are there like, do you guys have like a like I'm just speaking just from like a comms perspective? We have like other public information officers or comms directors that we all kind of get together on a monthly basis and we kind of just share information. Do you guys have something similar across other departments that you have like other legal affairs directors or somebody that you guys kind of have like a cohort, I guess, of to share information or ask questions or you know, anything like that?

Nick Gobbo 13:02

Absolutely. And and I'll say this too, uh, you know, primarily um in terms of the probably the best partnership that we have is of course with our Attorney General's office, which is our official council. Um so um, you know, we work very, very closely with our AG's office um on, you know, uh essentially all legal issues. So they are our council. Um so uh you know, they're probably our biggest partner. Um, you know, and our work complements the work that the AG's office does. It doesn't replace their work. We complement it. Um but also yes, I mean there are various uh uh legal teams that work in various other state departments and agencies that I'm on uh that I'm in contact with on a regular basis. And you know, we consult on various different issues, and and it's really helpful, I think, to have those different perspectives and to get an idea of how um other departments might be approach uh approaching different issues. And sometimes there's overlap too between departments um on various issues. So, like, you know, for example, um, you know, we oftentimes work pretty closely uh with the internal legal teams at the uh Department of Health and Human Services.

Anastasha Osborn 14:11

Yep. Yeah, I was gonna say I feel like there's sometimes a lot of overlap as well, um, just in the communications world. Like if we're putting out a press release, we're most likely, especially if there is an overlap, we are working with other departments and you know, making sure that we're we're covering all of our bases. So that's good to know. Well, we're kind of running out of time, but I do want to ask one more question, and that is if you could give one piece of advice to Laura staff specifically about working with legal or your office specifically, what would it be?

Nick Gobbo 14:41

Uh, I think we touched on it before, but uh, you know, when in doubt, reach out um and try to reach out early, particularly if, again, you're you're looking at you know something that's new or novel or some implementing some new program or procedure or something, and you just want to get that perspective. Um, you know, it's helpful. I mean, we're here to provide a centralized service to all of our various bureaus and agencies, um, and you know, consistent with our mission of trying to enhance the level of legal and compliance services to the department. You know, we try to offer that service and and and try to assist our teams with with doing so. So looping us in early, I think, is very helpful.

Anastasha Osborn 15:19

Yeah. All right. Well, you guys heard it here. Loop them in. All right. Well, Nick, thank you so much for being here and really helping demystify the work of the legal affairs office. Um, I appreciate your time. I know you are again part of a very small team, and I'm sure you guys are very busy. So thank you. And I think I want to just close out. Um, I think this conversation really has shown us how legal expertise supports collaboration. We talked about that. Um, good decision making and mostly smart regulation. Um, so again, thank you, Nick, and I appreciate your time.

Nick Gobbo 15:54

Thanks for having me, Anastasha.

Anastasha Osborn 15:56

Yes. And thank you to everyone listening. Whether you're part of Team LARA or you're a member of the public, thank you for joining us at the LARA Living Room from our living room to yours. We'll see you next time.