Ditching Perfectionism with Monica Packer

We’ve all been there one time or another; when the exhausting reality of the "all-or-nothing" mindset hits us like a flailing toddler’s arm across our face. We live in a world that praises flawless execution, but what happens when striving for perfection actually paralyzes us? Today, we are joined by the lovely Monica Packer. She’s an acclaimed host of the About Progress Podcast, progress coach, upcoming author, and a recovering perfectionist who has spent years helping women dismantle the pressure to do it all flawlessly.

• Monica Packer: https://www.aboutprogress.com/
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And remember, after every breakdown, don't forget the bubbles!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome to Bubbles and Breakdowns, a space designed for you to show up as your beautifully imperfect self, where we dive into the good, the bad, and the bubbly. I'm Katrina and I'm Ashley. And I'm Monica.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Yay! Yay! We're so excited, Monica. You're here with us today. And we've all been there one time or another when the exhausting reality of the all-or-nothing mindset hits us like a flailing toddler's arm across our face. We live in a world that praises flawless execution. But what happens when striving for perfection actually paralyzes us? Today we are joined by the lovely Monica Packer. She's an acclaimed host of the About Progress podcast, a progress coach, upcoming author, and recovering perfectionist who has spent years helping women dismantle the pressure to do it all flawlessly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Welcome, Monica. We're so thrilled to have you with us to discuss how. I don't know, Ashley, can we ditch our perfectionism? I focus on trying.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Hey, if you're trying, then you're doing great. I'm so glad to be here. And thank you for that wonderful intro. That was beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Yes, we're so excited to break up this whole perfectionism culture and talk about this practical progress over flawless performance. So I love what we've seen from you out in the space and listening to About Progress and just the entire approach that you have, supporting women particularly seems to be your niche. And I would love to just start with saying, what is it about perfectionism that it's not really just like high standards, but how maybe this could be more of like a coping mechanism? We talk about anxiety like this, we talk about rumination like this, and perfectionism is another aspect of this. I'd love to get your point of view.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

I would say for those who were born in our generation or around it, we did see perfectionism as a quality worth pursuing, as something that was beautiful and good and noteworthy and something we should all aspire to. Um, but that I think in more recent years has it been talked more about, oh, actually, there's a price you pay for perfectionism. And it's one that many will be there's layers to these surprises. It's not just one kind of surprise. So let's paint that a little bit. I think we desire for perfection mostly for good intentions. We want to be good. We want to do a good job. We want to be better, we want things to be different or improved. Um, but also there's comes those sneaky side too of you know wanting to be better than other people or to be admired or to even be separate, to distance yourself from people. Um, so perfectionism, you know, really can be a coping mechanism, especially for those who have been through trauma. But for most of us, and even including people who would, you know, fall into that camp, I really see it as a misplacement of identity. It's us placing our sense of self on our outcomes. And we often think as of perfectionists as only this overachieving stereotype. And while that definitely can be true, it's really more of a spectrum. Just like perfectionism is based on all or nothing. You give it your all or you give nothing, which really means you just give it all all the time. Truly, what happens is there's a price to be paid for that all. It's often your relationships, like almost always with perfections. It's your relationships are part of it. But your mental health, your physical health, also it often costs you the very thing you are pursuing. It's burnout, it's exhaustion, it's mental health issues, which I struggled with. But also there's another price to be paid, and that's the nothing side. A lot of perfectionists, and I would say half, if not even most, at one point maybe they were the aspiring kind on the overachieving end, and they they paid a price that forced them into the nothing side, or they've largely stayed on that side because of fear. Fear of not being enough, fear of failure, fear of it not being worth it, or just waiting, waiting for the right time or the opportunity or the skill set or the certainty. And regardless of where you are on that spectrum, if your identity is based off of those outcomes, then you are always set up to fail.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

That's always so loudly to me, especially a little bit about me. Um, I'm a currently a stay-at-home mom, but I was in the corporate world for years since you know, graduating my first job, and went through kind of more of a tumultuous exit, I think. Yeah. That forced me to say, you know what, I think I need to spend some time with my family. But I went through this identity shift of who am I now? I've been a mom. That's not changing. I'm just taking away that 40 plus hours of something I was striving to be perfect at, being let down, and then trying to build myself self back up to chase, chase, chase, chase, chase. How do we start to build yourself from that misplaced? I'm so interested because I've been trying to do this for a year and a half and not there yet. Yeah, your identity. Yes, but it is it, I I still feel it's like a lost feeling when you're saying it is misplaced, right? And it's just it becomes toxic, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

You don't like know who you are yet. I don't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

I don't. That toxicity is a is a big piece of it. And it and it and that's where there's so many layers to this, is what I said. It's like it, it trickles down into every part of your life in ways that are very sneaky. And so working on this identity side isn't a one and done. It's a cycle and it's one that is repeated. And that's okay. That's actually all part of it. And I'll I'll talk more about that, but first I'll share a little bit about how I started and how those who are listening can start and then also what it looks like over time, because that's another part that I think are people are always drawn to the certainty-bound answers, the black and white answers. And truly, there's more nuance to everything. And that's something the self-help and wellness industry don't want you to know because certainty sells. So I would like to speak more to the nuance of how this is applied over time. But first for me, I was the aspiring perfectionist for the first 20 years. I achieved really well. I was almost a straight A student in college, had a scholarship, looked like the perfect part on the outside. Wow. But I struggled um with eating disorders, also thanks to the perfectionism, one that was, you know, around for a long time, thanks to also being a dancer and a woman born in the 80s. Like we could all say we have a lot of that diet culture that's just stuck in our subconscious. Um, and when I hit rock bottom with those eating disorders, it was to a point where I I was really close to taking my own life. And I'm so fortunate to have had college counseling, free college counseling there that really helped me start a very, very long recovery process as part of that. So that was part of the price I paid for perfectionism, right? But I also went to the other side, the nothing side. I was so terrified of getting back to that place that I didn't try anymore. For my roles and my responsibilities, which is something that we often equate with our sense of self, right? Especially as women, I could show up for those things. I was a middle school teacher and then I was a stay-at-home mom as well. And, you know, for those things I could show up, but for myself, everything was on the back burner, my own hobbies, my own self-care, my own goals, my dreams. Everything was better on a shelf to stay safe. Um, and then I similarly got to another rock bottom at 30. So 10 years later, I was similarly really struggling with my mental health, really not sure if I should be around anymore. Um, luckily, my eating disorder recovery was better. So that wasn't as much of a facet. But I I felt the exact same really. I felt really stuck and lost and not sure who I was. And so that's what began my own, what has now been a 10-year-long experiment on progress outside of perfectionism. And we can talk more about what that looks like. But how it really started for me was I had to get clear on who is Monica? Who am I? If all of my roles, my responsibilities, my daily tasks, the things that even matter on the outside were to go away, who am I at my core? And the way I actually explored that was in a very non-serious way that has now been something I've done every year for now, I think I'm in my 11th year. And it's called the do something list.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

This is such a great tactic. I just have to say, like everybody listening, please think about this, see how it can apply to you. Please, Monica, share.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

The deeper stuff will definitely come, and we'll talk about that a little too. But for me, it began with I need a non-pressure, pressured way to explore who I am. And this list was called Do Something for a Reason. It's not all and it's not nothing. On this list were a smattering of things I had wanted to do or to try or to experience for years, but never had, or things that I used to do, but perfectionism was part of the reason why I stopped doing them, like dancing. That was a big thing for me growing up. So on my first list, I had things like read 20 books because I used I was an English teacher. I was an English major. I used to read, and then I lost that after my second kid. So read 20 books. Um, it was try uh 10 new recipes. I like to put numbers with things. It was go on five new hikes or um go to uh an art gallery because I did an internship at the Smithsonian, and you know, I've never been really to a museum since after that, you know. So it was a lot of things that were, none of it was newsworthy, headline worthy. But as I was working through my list, not only was I able to explore pieces of me and also feel like, oh, maybe not that. Like that's that's good. I can let that one go, or this thing I like. I also got to challenge that inner perfectionist because the whole point of the list was not completion, it was exploration. I was just just hearing you say that.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

I love that it is more like a bucket list versus a resolution list where you feel the pressure, right? I have to lose 20 pounds. I have to write, like save this much amount of money where you could see that's related to maybe the perfection. And it's all or nothing versus do something. Right then for you to get closer to yourself, right? So for you to be like you said, I love you, like I'm not into hiking it anymore. I said, let's do five new hikes, but one was enough.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, and with this, I would say with 11 lists, I've never completed a single one. And yet, and it's been a lot to change, by the way, too. Like mid-year, I always tweak it. I take things off, I change the number, I shift the expectations. That's fine too. Um, but yeah, no goals, no resolutions. And actually, it's a different sort of bucket list too, because it's not about I'm gonna kiss a stranger in the Eiffel Tower kind of bucket list. It's like it's every day. Like, what are things I wish I did with my time? Like, what are the things I see other people doing? And I feel like that kind of I wish I could do that feeling, or maybe a little jealousy, or just that that prick in my heart to desire. And it's changed every year, and certain parts of it have changed my life each year. But more than anything, it's just given me this pressure less way to explore who I am. And along for the ride then came the deeper stuff of really figuring out, okay, what are my values? What matters to me, what are my deep priorities? And and then, you know, it's it's evolved. It's evolved. And I can tell you more about how that's looked just the past year as I'm approaching 40, but in a way where I would say I haven't yet met the same level of crisis like I did at 20 and 30.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

And I think that that's really important. So you before you got into the do something framework, you really were talking about what was your rock bottom turning point. It was this catalyst to you really realizing that this perfectionism was breaking you down. It wasn't building you up. And so when we create expectations of ourselves and we don't meet them, how debilitating, right? So instead, I love that you took this approach to define kind of like who you are, what are your values, what motivates you, and then you did something instead of saying, if you're not this, then you're nothing. I mean, what a what a horrible place to be. And I'm so glad you're still here, by the way, because every time I hear people struggling with mental health or suicidal ideation, I mean, I think we've all experienced it at one time or another. And if you haven't, that's great. But I have, I for one, also have, you know, what if I jerk the wheel or what if I wasn't here anymore? And and I think it's just such a horrible place to be as a human being because you bring so much value and beauty to the world as testament to what you're doing in this space. So, Monica, so glad you're here. And yeah, I would love to think about, you know, when you think, how did you give yourself permission? Like what did this look like? How did you make this? It wasn't a giant leap, it was probably incremental steps. But if you could break it down for the listeners of some practicality behind your change, that would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

So there was this identity piece of the puzzle, right? But then there was also the progress piece. Like, so how do I, how do I actually change then in a different way? Because a lot of people think if they're not hard on themselves like a perfectionist and they won't grow. But I would say 10 times out of 10, your insistence on perfection will cost you your consistency and your sustainability. At one point, you're gonna fail, you're gonna mess up, you're gonna have to pivot. And perfectionists, when they meet that, regardless of where they are on the spectrum, are gonna just self-blame and get off the path. And so the other part of this was learning, well, then what is another way? Because nothing is a form of perfectionism too. So if I'm not hard on myself, if I'm not being like super hyper diligent and just relying on willpower and discipline, how can I still change then? What does that look like? And that's that's where a lot of the experimenting came with progress outside of perfectionism. And the do something list was a powerful way to try that out because I was allowed to be mediocre. I was allowed to not like something, I was allowed to be terrible at it. I was allowed to just try it for the point of my own curiosity, feeding my own curiosity. Did that feel weird for you? It did. And it felt freeing, freeing because I was actually allowed to be bad. I I weirdly gained more confidence in messing up. It was such a strange thing. So there's different ways we can do that. You can do it with the do something list, you can do it just with other areas of your life that you wanted to learn and grow. And that's what happened with the do something list too, just like perfectionism trickles down to every layer. When you're working on progress, instead, it also trickles down. Like it happened with the do something list, but gradually I started doing other things that would have been more like this perfectionistic type A kind of thing, but in a different way, like day planning or exercise or other kind of habits like working on my sleep, but with this new way of knowing like failure is actually part of the path. So, not if and when, but when I meet it, here's how I'm going to work on moving through this failure in a different way, primarily by starting on removing the self-blame and the shame and instead leaning into a whole lot of curiosity about what is really going on and how to tweak, self-compassion so I can work through it and stay on the path better, and courage to keep trying. Yeah. It's almost like you're a kid again.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yeah. Because I think of my kids learning to do something for the first time. And I am trying to teach them it's okay to mess up. They're gonna mess up. It's you're doing you're doing it for the first time. It's like I don't know. I just think that's really ground, because I think at least we talk about this all the time. We call this our middle third. It's not our second half, it's our middle third. We're sticking to that, but we kind of know who we are now and can give ourselves permission to mess up. Yes, give ourselves, and like you said, that freeing nature of dividing yourself from that perfectionism. I love this do something list.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I guess it's ditching the right way. It is in order to let ourselves do things poorly. And I think that this is where you learn to your point, you develop more confidence. And I think, you know, the the hard thing about being overachievers, and I can relate to this very much, Monica, is that because we've done stuff so well so many times, over and over and over, we can be very unforgiving of ourselves when we don't do it exactly right, and as our bodies change. And maybe I can't run, you know, the half marathon at a 10-minute pace anymore because my body is different, right? And so I think there's this whole burden as we get older of saying, well, you've done it before, gosh, you should be able to do it again. But that's not true either, right? And we have to be okay saying there is no right way, but there is something, you know. Do you want to sit at home or do you want to engage in life? So I I love this do something list. I would say I have this do something list without even knowing that I think I had it. Um, but I think there's also something really inspiring about writing it down and like having a chart or an agreement with yourself that could be really beneficial to people.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Yeah. And I have mine written down and it's displayed right here in my office, but I also put it in my bathroom so I can see it. But it's not like it's it's it's a different way of pursuing something. I one thing I really want to emphasize is you're not going on, you're not working on your do something list like a habit chart, like a, you know, like you're trying to fill in every single square. It's just this general mindset of like, well, how am I going to insert myself into my life? And as part of that, reclaim my life as my own again. I love that. Just insert yourself. You lose yourself to your roles and responsibilities out of good intentions again. And this is another way to say, no, my life is this. This is who I am. Yes. So it's a different way of even pursuing something.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

I love it so much. So when you look at this, there was something that caught my eye, which is you're not just what you produce. So a lot of like these high-achieving personalities, we like to have a product, and like it's almost like we carry it around as a badge of honor. Like, I, you know, did all the lawn work this Saturday and I took the kids everywhere, and we had a blast, and I created all these core memories, and it's like what we're creating. So, how did you kind of disentangle your sense of self and not having it depend on your productivity or what you're producing in the world? Or are you still working on that?

SPEAKER_03 19:10

I guess I was gonna say this is a layer that kind of struck me over the head a couple years ago. You know, I'd already been doing this work for seven, eight years, had my fifth baby. And, you know, you think going into having a kid, especially if you've had one or two, you know what you're doing better. Um, but it was like I had never had a child before. It was, it felt so new. And it had been a five-year gap between my last two. So that was part of it. But he was also a really hard baby. I'd had a terrible pregnancy. The recovery was so much harder. I was older, it was a geriatric pregnancy. There was so much of it that was new. And the hardest part was the productivity piece for me. It was massively challenging to my identity to not even be able to empty a dishwasher or take a shower for months on end. Just had a needy baby. Yeah. Yeah. But before that, like all probably my last two or three kids before him, it it felt like you know, you just get back to life and it's fine. You just have a baby along for the way. And and it was so different. Every part of it was entirely different. And I was so um when I was so glad that I had already worked on this for so long because I could see that inner perfectionist who was very frustrated and put out with how little she could do and what that meant about her. So I was able to be more curious and objective about it. And then I also was able to better challenge it. Um, I spoke to it a little bit more openly, you know, in my community. And one woman said something there that I hope will help someone who's listening today. And she said that she has learned that being present is being productive. And that became my personal mantra for probably. That is I had to say it several times a day to myself. And that was an opportunity. We talked about how this identity work is a cycle. That was another point where I'm like, I already worked on this. Why am I having to work on it again? Because it's a cycle and you have to keep coming back to things. And that was an opportunity, really, what another friend calls it a blurse, like a blessing and a curse. It was a blurse for me because I was able to again challenge that part of me that sneakily was placing my identity on my outcomes, on my productivity. Because I usually am a productive powerhouse. Like that's just that's who you are. It's who I've always been. And and I've gradually been able to work. It's now been three and a half years. I'm more and more back to where I was, but it's taken that long. And it probably will take longer. And it may never look the same either. But that was an opportunity for me to really figure that out. So there's one, there's one thing to be said for working on the mindset piece and experimenting with it. And then there's a another part where you know it's gonna be repetitive. You're going to have these moments, these blurses, these opportunities. To revisit who am I really? And I've had another one this past year. What do you know? But yeah, so that's in particular with productivity, every single really helped me.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

And so how do you, I mean, so there's this productivity mindset. We feel good about, you know, quote unquote, leaving it all on the field, doing our best with each and every day that we're given. But then there's this whole, I love this concept of like being present is productive. That is a great mantra. I'm gonna embody this and try to really instill this life-changing. But also, how do you draw the line? Being this, we just said it, the productivity powerhouse that you are. How do you draw that line and say, you know what, this is enough for today, but not just that, not have guilt around it, you know? Because I think then you go at the end of the night and said, Oh, I did have time to do X, Y, and Z. Like, how do you retrain your brain to get out of that slump?

SPEAKER_03 22:56

One of the ways we have been hooked into perfectionism is that there's this undercurrent belief that we will arrive at one point.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

And you never you never ever arrive. And also, whatever outcomes you think you've arrived at are not sustainable. They all go away. Even the good, like the good milestones, the worthy things we're pursuing in our life, even they are temporary. And so that's one of the the ways we have to work on this belief system internally, is thinking, is really acknowledging there is no arrival. And that actually like old me, that would have been really despaired by that. Like, then what am I doing this all for? Now it's again another freeing thing. It enables me to stay on the path because I know it's going to be there forever. And that's the whole point. It helps me also enjoy the process better because I've learned that the transformation, like it it really happens in the process, not the outcomes. Yeah. The outcomes, yeah. Yeah, the outcomes don't deliver the transformation. It's the path that does. So staying on it means I only get to keep growing more and more and more and more from here with time. But in terms of the how we live that out practically, I think it comes with as part of acknowledging that there's never an arrival, you also have to acknowledge that there are always, always, always trade-offs. Always. Even just based on how you spend the last hour of your evening. There's always going to be a trade-off. And if the trade-off is you perpetually, consistently, then you will be paying a bigger price. And so will everyone and everything connected to you, which is an awful lot as women. So that's one of the ways I practically try to work through it is just acknowledging to myself there's gonna be a trade-off no matter what.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

So which one am I ready to make today?

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Yeah. And I'm taking the I'm I feel like I'm just listening so intently because number one, something that's starting to point out to me is I love how you've said this is a cycle, right? As our perfectionist brains like to think, we're not really crossing things off the list here, right? We are restarting or reframing. Yeah. So what I'd love to know too, because again, this speaks so directly to the experience where I have felt stuck and I'm like, what do I do now? Yeah, do something framework. I am so, so excited to implore. And but I'd love to know, like, how did you help yourself stay on track? So that now we know these are like cycles, just like helpful tips of like personally, what did you do? Did you journal this and revisit it? Do you how do you make sure it's apparent? I know you said you had your do something list in your bathroom. Like Katrina has her resolution list in her bathroom, which you're gonna see it every morning and night, right? Hopefully, if that's where you're brushing your teeth or whatever. But I'd love to talk about tactics of how can I make sure this works for me? Because it sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Yeah, the last thing we want is for the do something list to be yet another thing where you set all the good intentions, did all the prep work, wrote it all down, and then forgot about it. Or for felt the pressure of it. So firstly, you make it visual. And I know that's such a simple one, but it is a game changer. The people who forget it and don't do it, they'll and then they do it later, they do come back to say, Monica, you're right. It does make a difference to just make it visual. So putting it in a couple places where you see often the reason I like it outside of my bathroom is because I don't do this every night, but a few nights a week, as I'm brushing my teeth, I have nothing else to do but look over and just take scan it. Yep. I'm just scanning it. And and I do this with lightness. I do it with lightness to think like, oh, what have I been doing lately that I can celebrate more? That I can like I I write on the list. So like I'll try to track. I read another book and I put a tally mark, or I went to this place and I'll if one of my things is typically like an adventure, like go on two in-state adventures as a family. That's been something that I've done the last few just something lists to kind of explore the adventure side of me that I'm learning is really important. Um, so it's it's one to like create those feel-good chemicals that make my brain and body want to do it more. So celebrating it and also just with lightness, seeing like, okay, what am I kind of like forgetting or falling short on? Or what is something that I'm actually afraid of doing and I keep putting it off? And that thing for me for years has been try out for a play. I've had that, I had it on my do something list for probably three four years.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

I can see this for you, yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah, so I didn't put out my list this year, but guess who tried out for a play? And guess who now is doing five nights a week of rehearsals for Fiddler on the Roof? Oh, I did see this on your social. So exciting. This gal. But that wouldn't have happened, even though I had it on my list for a few years. It was okay that I never got to it, but because I kept putting it back on, it became the signal to myself, like this actually matters to you. And also there's some bigger fears at play here. And I'm so glad I can tell you more about that, but I'm so glad I, you know, tried out. So, so making it visual, checking in with it regularly, celebrating when you're doing something, checking things off, writing it down, with lightness, tracking what you want to do. The next thing I would say is putting it on your literal calendar. Okay. Oh, deciding, okay, what's next on this, and and truly putting the thing on the calendar. Just one thing. It doesn't have to be, I do not do this where at the beginning of the year I make a do something list and then I work backwards and I'm like, okay, then what do I need to do each quarter and then each month and then each week and then each day? It's not too much. It's too much. I would never even finish a do something list if I knew I had to do that. It's more again that lightness of just tracking, okay, if that's the thing I really do want to do, I'm gonna put that on the calendar for next week. And it's the small step of getting there. And then I would say the final thing is a little bit of accountability. I tend to be someone who doesn't really need that or gravitate to it very much. But then I realized I've been doing this online for now 10 years. And when I share about it on my stories or I do a real, that is a form of accountability. Yes, it's in the universe. It has in many ways pushed me to prioritize it better. So find accountability buddy or just share it on your own Instagram stories. It doesn't matter if you don't have a public account, like your friends are gonna be doing it too, or or watching and and wanting to know more about it. So a little bit of accountability does help too. But again, not in our typical way that we pursue goals. It's different. Again, the lightness really matters, the playfulness.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

That is what is resonating with me is the lightness that you kept seeing with lightness, being lightful about it. And what I'm hearing in that, and what resonated with me, Monica and Ash, was that you had mentioned children and how when they're learning something the first time, how gentle we are with them, right? That lightness of like, this is your first time, let it roll off your back. Or you could be bad, you can be bad at it, don't worry about it. And it's almost as though we're treating ourselves with that same care and tenderness and lightness that we would with someone doing something for the first time. And I think what a beautiful intersection to be in your life that you can have lightness around these things and stop, you know, being it a um algebraic equation for your worth, you know, of saying if I don't do this, then this. And it's not punitive, it's experiential, it's fun, it's refreshing.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

You're almost allowing yourself to fail. Yeah. Even though fail to us is like I know debilitating, but with the stakes being low, and this is for your enjoyment. I love how you said the cycle can be relooked at in your list, you're like, eh, this isn't for me anymore. That's super important too.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah, I agree. So, I mean, first of all, kudos for your progress over perfection. Number one, we want to kind of wrap it up with just a few like lightning round questions because I think we could honestly talk to Monica for hours about this. In fact, I'm like, How much time you got? My question, yeah. My question is like, oh, should I be a part of her coaching now? And we will put for those people who are so interested in you, Monica, we will put in the show notes how to get in touch with you, how to view about progress, and also your upcoming book, Sticky Habits, which you said is launching and being published this September. So super excited to know more because you're not just uh about ditching perfectionism and the do something, but you're also about building habits, which is a whole nother angle. So maybe we'll have you again and talk about that. I know, I'm like, you didn't even get my fire hosing about that, but I know. Yeah, we'll maybe we'll get there at another episode. So I know we talked a little bit about um some of the tools that you use, but was there, you know, you're such a bookworm. I can see the books behind you. Was there a particular book or books that has really kind of inspired you along your path and journey to ditching perfectionism that maybe could be a good read for some of our listeners?

SPEAKER_03 31:45

I mean, I think we all know the gifts of imperfection by Brene Brown. I did find that instructive. I will say it hasn't been a surprising amount of self-help books. It's been more about these memoirs, like people who are really on, you know, I hate the bachelor word, but journey of, you know, figuring out who am I, who've had this like catalyst moment of having to reckon with their identity. Like is it one um the one by Paul? Gosh, I'm forgetting his name. Oh, sorry for the hitting the the desk. Hold on, it's up there. Let me hurry and check.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Now, Paul Naruta. Oh, I've heard of this one.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Yeah, really good one. I know another classic eat pray love, which we can't do. We can't do it, but I you know, there's a different part of that, which I love the exploration piece. But honestly, just I love I love memoirs for that reason, is because like we actually get this like messy middle of what it looks like to change, whereas 99.9%, I'm like the point one or you know, 0.1% um of self-help books are about let me give you a black and white path with no nuance and tell you exactly what I did and how I did it so perfectly. Like it's a recipe. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Recipe for disaster, I think. Yes. Um, next question. If someone is listening currently that's frozen by fear of making a huge mistake on like a big dream they've had, what is the very first step they should take?

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Instead of looking at the full picture and working backwards, again, like we're often taught to do, I would start in the reverse and just think of what is one small way I can do something to start. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

What's the first little tiny baby step and do that thing? Yeah, it could be like looking for something on the internet, it could be writing something every day if you're wanting to be an author, like any little incremental game. We talk about this all the time, even when we're reflecting on our podcast journey, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yes. We did the thing. We started the thing.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Yeah. And you did it messy and and like you have to learn skills along the way. You have to be bad at things.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

We had a couple of snafu that I still I was telling we we just did an episode on rumination that will be coming out after this one. And and I I said, I still kind of ruminate about that day where I had the cable in the wrong way. But you kind of have to like laugh about it in retrospect, right? No, I love that. Um, another one that we had in here was is there like a mantra? So you kind of you touched on this a little bit with hinting at the performance culture, like do these things perfect, drink the green juice every day and like all of the things that are out there in the ether that we're hearing all the time of how do you get the perfect body and how do you have the most energy? Is there one mantra or like rule that's in society right now that you think that we should completely disentangle ourselves from? Like, is there one that stands out for you?

SPEAKER_03 34:43

I mean, honestly, it's just the whole I'm all or nothing kind of declaration. I just I don't think people fully realize how damaging that is and how it boots them off the path that there's a price to be paid on both sides of that. So yeah, I'm all or nothing.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

All or nothing. Ugh. I I yeah, that that makes sense. I mean, since you're about progress and the do something, I love it. I love it. That is fantastic. And I think I I don't prescribe to the all or nothing. I'm like, I'm gonna do my best. And isn't that what we're supposed to do?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah, it's hard to get there though, these perfect the perfection tendencies and even we want to do it all. At least I feel like a lot of we were talking about type A people who are take charge, figure it out, and succeed, most likely. To untangle that, I think is also important for us to have conversations like this to say we're all kind of feeling it.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

Yeah, and believe me, I have a lot of type A clients who will tell you you don't know what they're paying. You can't see the prices they're paying.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Yeah, it's all internal and it shows up in, like you said earlier, sneaky ways.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

So, what's one piece of advice, Monica, that you would offer to the perfectionists out there today that are holding these high standards, but not just holding them, but they are really working hard to maintain them and putting in all their energy, being difficult, you know, difficult on themselves, hard on themselves. What's a piece of advice that you could tell them that would maybe, I don't know, shake their spirit just enough to get them to start to evolve and think differently?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

I'll share something that one of my first clients talked through. Um, she was a very skeptical recovering perfectionist, meaning she was very uncertain if the things that I was trying to help her shift in would actually still help her make progress in her life, like having more compassion, using more curiosity, making space for failure, um, forgiving herself more, you know, things like that would actually help her stay on the path. And three months in to our coaching, she was sharing about the ways she actually had made a lot of progress in, even by daring to do something different, and which was so scary for her. It was so scary to let go of that perfectionistic model. And she said something I've never forgotten. And I think it's the best piece of advice I can give to anyone who is afraid of releasing their clenches uh on perfectionism and perfectionism's clinches on you. And this is what she said, because I asked her, What did you learn? Like, what have you learned the past three months is trying this new way? And she said, I've learned it takes the greatest of courage to do the smallest of things. And that's what I want them to embody that courage to try to do something different and to try the smallest of things over and over and over.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Oh, that's so beautiful. And I think what a great way to tie a bow on such a fantastic episode with you, Monica. We are so thrilled we've had this morning with you. And it's left me hungry, wanting more. And I think you know, we would love to have another opportunity if it arrives here in the few month next few months of having you back on, maybe talking about habits as your book is launching. I think the other thing I want to remind everybody that was my biggest takeaway, Ashley, was being present is being productive.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

100%, especially I think thinking towards we're in the summer season, yeah, and we get so overloaded with stuff to do it all, right? But being present, take that time, take it in, and you can mark it off as being productive.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

I love it. I know. And again, thank you, Monica, for being with us on bubbles and breakdowns. It's been an absolute joy. Yes. And remember, after every breakdown, don't forget the bubbles. And if you are loving bubbles and breakdowns, or if you were loving hearing Monica Packer today, in the show notes, we'll have links to all of her fantastic websites where you can learn about progress, her podcast, her up-and-coming book, sticky habits, as well as just check her coaching information out on her website. Um, and then please follow us. We want some more bubbles in our lives. We want to hear from you guys. So please click follow, share it with a friend, send it to someone who might be a perfectionist that needs a little help with their recovery and inspire some change in the people that you love around you. So thank you for being with us. We'll catch you on the next episode. Thank you. Cheers.