Navigating Burnout with Ellen Meyer

Ever feel like you’re running a marathon you didn't sign up for, with a backpack full of everyone else's expectations? Today, we are pulling back the curtain on a crisis so many of us are quietly drowning in: the perfect storm of burnout. Today, we get to unpack exactly why we are wired for this exhaustion.  But it’s not just in our heads; it’s in our changing biology during these middle third years, leaving us running on empty in a modern workspace that has completely fractured. If you are living on autopilot, bouncing from one fire to the next, this episode is your permission slip to stop surviving and start fighting for calm. We're sharing personal rock-bottom moments, raw career realities, and some practical tools you can use to compartmentalize your work, change your frequency, and reclaim your peace.

Today we are joined by the brilliant Ellen Meyer; she is a strategist, coach, and self-described "Professional Hypewoman" for working women and executive leaders. You'll see...She cuts through the noise of standard corporate coach-speak with depth, humor, and zero script.

After 20 years climbing the corporate ladder, Ellen now runs Grounded Growth LLC, where she does coaching and keynotes ​on burnout, workplace BS, and leading organizational change. She is obsessed with brain science, habit formation, and human psychology...and figuring out how women can heal burnout without burning their whole life down.

Don't know where to start? Visit Ellen’s Website and Take her Free Quiz to understand your personal pattern: https://ellenmeyercoaching.scoreapp.com/ 

Follow Ellen on Instagram: @heyellenmeyer

Music by: Matthew McGrath https://www.instagram.com/matthewmcgrathmusic

https://www.instagram.com/bubbles_and_breakdowns

And remember, after every breakdown, don't forget the bubbles!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Welcome to Bubbles and Breakdowns, a space designed for you to show up as your beautifully imperfect self, where we dive into the good, the bad, and the bubbly. I'm Katrina.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

I'm Ashley.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

And I'm Ellen.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Do you ever feel like you're running a marathon you didn't sign up for with a backpack full of everyone else's expectations? Well, today we are pulling back the curtain on a crisis so many of us are quietly drowning in the perfect storm of burnout. Today we get to unpack exactly why we are wired for this exhaustion. But it's not just in our heads, it's in our changing biology during these middle third years, leaving us running unempted in a modern workspace that has completely fractured. If you're living in autopilot, bouncing from one fire to the next, this episode is your permission slip to stop surviving and start fighting for your calm. We're sharing personal rock bottom moments. There may be a lot of those, rock career realities, and some practical tools you can use to compartmentalize your work, change your frequency, and just reclaim your peace.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yes, let's do that. I love this. This is so exciting. We are thrilled to be joined by Ellen Meyer today. She is a strategist, coach, and self-described professional hype woman for working women and executive leaders. You'll see, guys, she cuts through the noise of standard corporate coach speak with her depth, definitely humor, and zero script. After 20 years of climbing the corporate ladder, Ellen now runs Grounded Growth LLC, where she does coaching and keynotes on burnout, workplace BS, and leading organizational change. She is obsessed with brain science, which, like, that's so near and dear to my scholarship.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Katrina's a scholar.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I was gonna say nerd, but I was like, ooh. It's fine. I'll I'll take it. Habit formation and human psychology and simply figuring out how women can heal from burnout without burning their whole lives down. Ellen, welcome, welcome to Bubbles of Breakdown. We are so, so excited. Oh, wonderful. And and just this whole burnout culture is running rampant in the corporate world. I can like raise my hand high that I have experienced this very near term. Same. Actually has experienced this. And that's why having you on who have really dedicated time, effort, and research to what's going on with burnout. Why is this happening? And that's a great place for us to start, right, Ashley? Absolutely. We want to say, Ellen, tell us about burnout and what you've learned and impart some wisdom on this on this group of individuals. What's the why?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, I'm I'm really glad we're talking about it. Although, to be honest, everyone's talking about burnout, but the numbers are still getting worse. And so that's kind of a sobering thing that really did prompt me to like get really understand it better. So why? Okay. First of all, we always have to go way back. So I feel like a lot of our childhoods were burnout prep school in a way, right? So think like we are what did we like? I'm an elder millennial slash young Gen Xer, right? I'm like right between those menials, yes. Yes, exactly, exactly. But I think like anyone in that that was growing up in like 80s and 90s, it was a very like specific generation of girls like growing up in that era. So I feel like we grew up fast. Um, a lot of us would say like we were hyper responsible. Like that was the first era of like latchkey kids, or that whole right? So it was like you got home, you took care of things, you played till dark, came home, right? It was a very independent generation. I also think that a lot of women I talked to, and and me included, we also grew up in emotionally volatile households. And so there was this sense of like, I just I handle stuff and I read the room. Like I adjust to what needs to happen, I keep the peace. So I think this combo of like hyper responsibility and hyper like intuition, how are people doing? Um really is kind of a recipe for overfunctioning. Right? Which is like, hey, we're we're we're not just like taking care of things, we're taking care of people. And if you fast forward that a couple more decades, a lot of us like are in the throes of that. Like, I call myself a recovering overfunctioner because I feel like so much of what I'm doing is trying to pull back, like trying to control and take care of everything at all at all times. The other thing I was really thinking about and talk about is remember this was the era where college admissions became super competitive.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yes, right? So we had this message as kids, like, okay, go to school, get a great job, especially women, because this was like a really fabulous era for women, like in the workplace, and we were gonna work and do great things and have the kick out.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Shatter that ceiling, yeah. Like women's empowerment to the 10th degree.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, I I mean, I was like, I feel like we started resume building almost in middle school.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

It's true.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

What clubs are you in? Like, what sports are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Are you volunteering enough? Did you help with the parade? You know, yeah, all of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

The float making for homecoming, whatever it was, yeah. And so, like, again, we've got this like hyper responsible taking care of things, and then you add this like achievement component.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

And right, does that resonate with the we could like we could reflect back a little because when we talk about this and when I hear you, I mean, all of this feels like you were literally in my home growing up.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

I am triggered, same.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yeah, like I had the volatile households, I had a job at 15. I actually had to give up extracurriculars and taking on responsibility so early in life, and I could ride my bike across the entire city and be able to be out until dark and all this hyper responsibility, hyper intuition. I mean, I'm looking at Ashley, she's she's our sensitive, like she reads the room better than anybody.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

I am a sensey, but also when you were saying this, I was like, you know, I I was thinking a lot about this, getting so excited for the to record this episode with you, thinking about we don't talk about this why enough. And thinking about people pleasing, kind of I was like, I was a people pleaser probably at five and didn't even know it.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is where I mean, I don't want to get we're not gonna therapise here, but you know, a lot of what we do does touch on patterns, patterns that develop before we even realize that they're a means of survival. And not in a dramatic sense, but I mean, for some people, yes, but I just mean like this was how we catch things steady in our lives. And so there is this sense of like, wow, there's all these patterns that develop when we're young. And by the way, then we get the job and we are rewarded for being so good at handling so many things, at keeping like part of your superpower, Ashley, of like reading people is like you're probably a kick-ass manager, right? Because you can keep everybody steady. And so then the workplace like really rewards these traits and in a great way. I mean, again, these are like part of what make us really they're powerful strengths. The problem is when you fast forward a couple of decades and all of a sudden you also have this layer of family life and responsibility, all the adulting that we have to do, and just the plate gets so full, and all these patterns, the perfectionism, the people pleasing, which we talked about. Like for me, I'm like very much performance-driven, like productivity, like what did I get done today? Checklist, checklist exactly, and like all these things that again they were such benefits to us early on, building a career, all of that, we just get to where we can't sustain that same level, and we start to question, we start to, you know, if we're really doing the work, which I think is critical, we talk about burnout, is we start to look at like what are my own patterns that help fuel this. Right. Which takes us to the second one, which is a really big one, too. So the why of like, okay, part of it is like what patterns that developed, but the second one is we then experience this massive hormonal shift. Oh yeah. I know a water cross-perimenopause, stand up, oh no, the things that we yeah, and and and we're finally talking about it more. Thank God, literally. Um, but we're also learning it starts earlier.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah. So by 35 sometimes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah, yeah. And what happens is like basically in that 10-year stretch, roughly 35 to 45, is what I call these the hustle hormones. So these are like the progesterone, estrogen, the testosterone, all these things that actually like fuel that hustle that I was just talking about. Um, those are cut in half during that stretch of time.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

I have felt this so much, where as before, you know, our capacity would have been much higher and our resiliency would have been much higher. To your point of like this, I love the way you phrase it as a hustle hormone. Yes, but that is what it takes. It's like energy that just wanes out of our body, and then we can't think clearly. There's so many impacts of all this resiliency.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

The resiliency, I can't bounce back, right? It takes me so much longer to bounce back, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Exactly. Like sleep, like our recovery, sleep. I mean, how many of us are struggling with sleep in this stretch of time?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Throw a glass of wine on there, and now we're up all night, all night.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Oh, yeah, no, it's it's crazy. And then uh, yeah, so so literally our recovery takes longer, that emotional resilience. So again, we we now have like these patterns that are well developed. And then when we're like, wait a second, why can't I handle this as fluidly as I used to, right? Like, oh, I used to crush it, right? I could I could I could get by on four hours of sleep and still like nail that presentation at work. Or, you know, like, but we can't, we just we can't survive on protein bars and you know, like we we have to care for ourselves differently now. But but this is a huge part of burnout that I talk about a lot because I don't think we're talking about the biological part of burnout enough.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

No, and I didn't even really think of it as a factor until I came across your page. And I'm like, you know, sometimes you just need that light bulb moment to hear it from someone else. That's what you were for me to say, oh my gosh, this is starting to click. And also let's spread this word to people to say, you're not alone in this.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, because it's heavy. And and this, and this was part of my own like journey to figure out right because here's what happens, guys. We don't just all of a sudden wake up and go, maybe I'm burnt out. I'm gonna have a lot more grace for myself. That doesn't happen, right? We usually push through. Yeah, we try to do all the things to get back to who we were and what we could handle at 35. I mean, I told myself, like, it must be that I like I need to get in better shape, I need to have more, you know, more productivity hacks, I need to manage my time better. Those are helpful skills, but they're not gonna solve burnout, right? Especially when you've got a true biological capacity shift happening. So part of that is really just and I say this a lot, like it that realization can be both like some relief, but also grief.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Right. Because you enjoyed that phase of your life when you were firing in all cylinders and delivering, and you felt so energized, the way that maybe you were, you know, rewarded growing up, and then how you achieved success. And then you're you really do struggle with this like lack of new identity, I think, in a way, of saying, how do I identify how to feel good about myself at this new intersection of hormones and getting older?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

And you know, I totally and I I actually really don't think it's like, oh, now we're we're just we've got a downshift the rest of our lives. I actually don't think that's the message. I think it's like this recalibration because I'm like, okay, my capacity is different, not better or worse, it's different. So, how do I get more intentional with my time, my energy, my how I care for myself, those types of things? Because being on autopilot, living in that default mode, that's where we're just gonna keep feeling like we're never, you know, we're we're always depleted. So I think it's so I think the bottom line is I think it can be a really hopeful thing, but it does, it can come with like the sense of like, man, like this feels hard, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Just the weight is the weight is too heavy, right? And and it's almost like an immovable rock, but now let's throw motherhood on it. I mean, like, why not have some kids, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Why don't you I found myself the other day telling my husband, like, I just need to not be responsible for a day. And I think it literally started just thinking about like, you're right, early on, I was responsible for so much. Again, the eldest daughter, again, like all these things that now I'm like, I just need like I don't care who eats what for dinner. I don't care who's got clean clothes tomorrow. Like, I just need like a break to say regulate myself.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah, or just to not be receiving stimulus all day. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah. But I think that's huge, Ashley, because that's a great example of like these are patterns I've always told myself I have to be responsible for everything. Where and and how am I gonna catch myself and make and choose instead of by default, like what I pour into? I I think motherhood if teaches, I mean, I have three children. If it if it taught me anything, it's like you really do have to be conscious about what you want to pour energy into. Because if you do try to do all the things and be all the things, you will by default end up like not really being able to, you know, focus where really the most important energy goes. Some of it is like letting some of those things go, hand handing them off, being okay with how your spouse might handle that thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

I mean, these are the these are the tough details of it, but those are a lot of tactical like ways to reframe priorities. And this hits home to me, Ellen, so much. And again, we're not going through a therapy session, but is our listeners are out there saying, yeah, that I it's hard for me to leave my house dirty, or it's hard for me to let my husband do the drop-off because I love seeing them, or I like to grocery shop because I pick the the right quote unquote things, you know. There's a little bit of like this relinquishing control that can be challenging. And I think especially because we have a proxy of how we're comparing ourselves, of how we used to be. And so it's like this whole calibration. I love that word, and it's a really good call to action to say, you know, don't throw out all these things you love about yourself, but calibrate and maybe right size for where we are in our lives. Um, I I love the way you frame that. And the next thing we wanted to talk about that, you know, so there's kind of like this how we're raised, the biology, and then, you know, add motherhood if that's a choice for people to have children. But then there's this whole landscape of career life and work that looks vastly different that we've experienced a huge evolution, especially post the pandemic, right? So we'd love to get your perspective on what you uncovered and unearthed about this.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah, that is the third thing because you've got sort of these internal dynamics, but then you put that into this landscape of the future of work and the world of work like dramatically changing. Right. So we've got the internal components of burnout, but I was even thinking back to the start of my career and like getting my first, I this is how old I feel. Like it was a Blackberry, was like my first.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Oh, yeah, I had it. I returned that thing. I beat it so much. It was awful. It was horrible. Who made this up?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

You got a I know, but you got a work phone, yeah, right? And it was like, okay, well, yeah, you occasionally use it. But if you think we went from that maybe what 15 years ago, yeah, to now like our our work is literally with us constantly.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

It's true, it's in our pocket, constantly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, so so the we cannot understate like the impact of like technology and that sense of always being on, even if you're not on the device and on the email, our brains have lost that demarcation between work and home. And just like you said, COVID really just all of it collided.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I always say with smartphones working in our bedrooms, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Yes, and I still am. You know, my my standing desk is in my bedroom, and there's no more disentangling or separation between my worlds. And I always say with the smartphones, it's like we're walking around with the entire world in our pocket, and you know, it takes like a cognizant effort to remove that device from our reachable grasp, you know, it's just always there.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

And even if you can do that physically, there's work to be done to actually like really retrain your brain of like, no, this time right now is actually my home time, my family time, because it's so easy to like, yeah, I could put the device in the next room, but I'm like ruminating about the meeting or worrying about how Monday's gonna go and the pitch I'm doing, whatever the thing is. So I think there's both like the time or the like physical space boundary, but also how are we kind of creating boundaries around like our energy of how we're thinking about it? That's hard, it's really hard because again, go back to all those ways that we thrived, right? Was being on top of everything. Yep, and now we're having to like decondition some of that, and it's really hard. The other thing is the pace of change in the workforce is insane.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

It's while we introduce AI, which is not regulated, that's taking up a ton of like real resources in the world, and we don't even know how to manage it.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

And everyone wants to use it though, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, just the same that we don't for the sake of using it. Okay, and and AI is like obviously like is a seismic shift.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Oh, seismic is a good idea. And I use I do use it every day. Yeah, I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

But we but this pace of innovation has been happening for for many years. So, really, ostensibly, like since we entered the workforce, like think of like again, we talked about blackberries, but like everything, not just technology, but the pace, and I'll geek out a tiny bit because I was on the ops business side, like a COO. And so, even as a business leader, the pace of having to stay on top of innovation and make make decisions was shorter term, right? Because of how quick the the economy and the world works now. Um, which means for the employee and the working women like us, like there is like we stay at jobs like much shorter period of time, right? There's much less structure and stability in work in general, and we're seeing that, of course, we're seeing that dramatically with layoffs and recalibration and re-orgs, you know, all of this. So, so the entire like structure of stability of work that we thought we were like paying into now feels like sinking sand.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

But isn't that so interesting how these things happen over a course of decades? You know, you look at the real estate market, and when my mother was growing up, Ellen, it was like if you bought a house, you just bought the best investment of your life. Your life. Like you were flush, you were set, it was nothing, it was gonna do nothing but go up in value. And now the prices right now in many areas, if you buy there, it's gonna go down in value and it's gonna happen that you know, and so we see these ebbs and flows. And we do. I think reflecting back on the pace of technology, what it causes is the burden of learning, constant learning, you know, when when you were talking about that, and I've actually been reflecting on this as I just started a new role, Ellen, is I was like, what if things were simplified? What if people went back to notebooks and had to like keep their contacts in a piece of paper and they didn't have to learn all this technology? And what my hypothesis is maybe we could be actually way more effective and productive. Probably. Because there you're not having to be in this constant learning, because if we're in constant learning, then we're not in constant engagement and there's this trade-off. And so I think we're gonna see the tip of the scale back. The pendulum is like really shifting in this direction of more technology, more effectiveness, more data. And I think we're gonna start going Hermit Crab back and recede back into our old ways, fingers crossed. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

I was gonna say, I I love like a countercultural take. So I would I would love if that happens. I do think person to person within teams, within like relationships, I think we're seeing this. I think people are desperate for community.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Oh, yeah. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

I think that's the that's the other thing. Like, I think. There are lots of perks to being remote, especially as working moms, but it is very hard to have genuine camaraderie and community in the same way. Like I have a lot of nostalgia for like early in my career. Like I was in finance, like you were like with a bunch of young people, like analysts, like we were like figuring it out and ordering pizza and staying late. Like there was fun. It was fun. And you know, and I think a lot of just the way that we work now, we're geographically spread out. Um I think I think work's a lot more uh transactional than relational in a lot of ways. And so especially like how we're wired, like part of why we probably enjoy work is is like interacting with people and engaging with people for better or worse. I mean, there are certainly downsides. Right. The hardest part of work is also the people, usually. Um but I think there's just that's a whole different shift in like how work how work looks totally.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

And I um before I left corporate America, I was an employer brand. So my job was connecting employees with their purpose. And it's hard, especially in the remote world, to have build this connection. And I think we're just gonna it it's tough, but you're right, companies also have changed, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:22

But I will say drastically, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

I love Ellen that you indicated it's by person, it's by team, it's by leader. And when I when I had the opportunity in my last role to lead a larger field team, we really were hyper live interaction, also because the nature of the job that they had. And I will say that the enjoyment and the um reward of working on a team that has fun together is so, so critical. But we have switched to this kind of I'm not gonna micromanage you, I'm not gonna force you to come in live too often, people being upset if they have to go in three days a week to an office because it's disruptive to their life. And and I feel like it is definitely lost on many, many, many teams and many leaders the importance of those live engagements, not to be micromanaging, but to build community. I think this is such a great, great point. And I do hope we see more of it, just being a little optimistic.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah, I love that. No, I love that. I love that. Um, yeah, I'm curious how you see it, Katrina, though, because you're still in the working world, and it's critical that we have women that I mean, my my whole thesis is like we need women at every every seat at the table. Like every we need women at every table. Yeah, and yet so many of us are burning out. And the the prevailing message right now is like just quit and do your own thing. And I think that's good for a lot of people, but if I really play that out, what happens? We leave we leave a lot of holes where we need to be in the room making decisions. So I think it's like a really it's a really critical point, I think, for what's happening and how women sort of find their role in this completely evolved um work work life, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Well, and not to unveil too many personal details, obviously this podcast is completely separate from my career and work, but we just selected our first ever female CEO um for a very large organization, and we have high representation of females. And I think that there is this balance of you do you don't want to burn them out. So it is about right-sizing the work expectations and engagement. And I hope that we continue to have those conversations because I know that you know, not every organization focuses on these things. So it does leave this trail of burnout dust and people jumping ship and maybe jumping ship to the point where they put themselves in financial distress. And obviously, we want to avoid that because we all have bills to pay families to take care of and take care of ourselves. So, to your point, you know, maybe it's not always quitting, but it's saying, What can you do? And I'd love to talk about that. Totally. What can we do to avoid and and yeah, yeah, right size the burnout exactly?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Right size, oh my gosh. Well, I do think to your point, um, there is a a the company that you you know work for, the people you work for, they certainly do impact, but I think we have to look at our own contribution to burnout. Yeah because so much, I mean, this was my journey. Like, I I had lots of excuses for when I so I did, you know, the corporate grind, just like so many of us for 20 years, and and I loved a lot of it. I loved the strategy, I certainly loved the paycheck, I loved the title, like I loved a lot of components of it, and then like so many of us, like stuff goes sideways, right? Um, leadership got it just shifted and it was really hard. And it would have been very easy. Well, I'll be honest. Initially, I did want to blame everybody, right? Like the difficult, you know, the difficult CEO, the changing dynamics, the all of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

But when I really got honest with myself, there was a lot of my own contribution to my own burnout. And so I couldn't expect they'd one day wake up and be like, oh wait, maybe we need to like help her have boundaries. No, that was like that was my part to kind of um contribute to. Um, so I think that's part of it is how do we how do we kind of get honest about those patterns and what we need to work on? Um but yeah, I mean, so let's see, your what's your so you tell me your question. Where do we have many thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 27:39

I can tell. And I just have to like plug if people, if like we're here at this stage, we're you know, 30-ish minutes almost into this podcast, and if it's resonating really, really high to our listeners, Ellen, you do have an opportunity for coaching and support, and you've got some great resources, which we'll highlight at the end. So I just want to say this is just that like sweep of of like very high level. So even though this feels somewhat deep, like I there's so many areas to your point, Ellen. But I'm I'm thinking basic ways to start. You know, we talked with you when we first met about fighting for calm, and maybe we can start there and and just kind of frame that up of what that even means to fight for calm.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, yeah. We like we talked about technology, we talked about the pace of business, like kids. Hello, like that is like they are not calm. Nope. They're not calm. Um, and again, if we look back, uh like we've always been like striving and thriving. Yeah, however, especially this newfound hormonal shift, like our bodies and our nervous systems are desperate for silence and stillness.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Agree.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Which I don't know about you, that like freaks me out. Same. I I'm like, ugh, like because as soon as I I remember start trying to like meditate, because of course, like we all have had that, and I'm like, I'm three three seconds in, I'm going.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

And you're doing a to-do list, and you're like, I'm like, I gotta put a podcast on when I'm doing the dishes. I'm like, if they look at me and they don't have a head or earbud in my ear, something's up. Something's up.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah, yeah. So I'm not I'm not gonna say like start some you know streak of meditation, but there is this sense of like we are actually missing and actively negotiating against some of our body's like basic needs. So when I start with women, they want to talk often about like work and like all of that, which I'm I'm all in. Like I I help women navigate tough work situations, career decisions, and burnout. But I will often always go back to okay, how are you supporting your body's basic human needs? Because the reality is like the first things to go when we're stressed are what sleep, exercise, um, exercise, like taking a walk, diet, sitting out, going outside, getting some sunshine, um meal proper meals, right? Like I'm I'm stressed, I'm busy, I'm just like grabbing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

So kids leftovers.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

And then and then, of course, the idea isn't that we then like do a beach body routine and start meal prepping. Like I'm I'm that person that will over-engineer a solution I can never stick with.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

I think it's the exact opposite. I think we go back to like what can I set as non-negotiable in my daily life that are me providing my body's like basic needs. Like literally the stupid, like I started stupid easy, right? So it was like in between every meeting, I walked my mailbox and back. It's like perfect.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Something to get you oriented on like even like this whole phase that's coming at us right now, and we hear about is like snackable exercise. You know, it's like three minutes of strong exertion versus an hour and a half long walk. Because to your point, of like, are we setting ourselves up for success if we go with these crazy plans? And we've talked about this on the podcast before, is like if I hear another person that says I need to have wake up at 5 a.m. and drink the grain juice and like work out for two hours before my kids get up, I'm gonna scream because that sounds terrible. Can't do it. Can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

So, so my mine is like the exact opposite. So mine is how, like you said, snackable. Like, what are the smallest things that I can integrate throughout my day? Not as more to do. But the important the reason this is important is again, it's back to your brain. Your brain needs to relearn that your needs matter, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:42

And they are paramount, not just matter, but they are fundamental to how you functioning, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Exactly. But that's but there's like so many of us, like that's kind of last on the list. Like, if I have time, I'll take a walk. And so, how do we sort of like and for me, I had to tell myself, like, I'm not bargaining on this anymore. I'm taking a walk every day, I'm gonna start with 15 minutes. I made it easy enough that I couldn't talk myself out of it. And then I told myself, like, this is not negotiable. And that mindset shift, it done in you know, little ways throughout the day, actually is is the only thing that sticks. Like nobody sticks with the hard 75, and like there's you intentionally do something really intense, but you know, trying to change. And the irony is of course, like almost always feels like failure because you can't sustain it.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Well, and also it's a level of consistency. So when you look at real health, like throughout people who maintain like a healthy body weight, care for sleep, all of that, it's about finding what you can be consistent on that becomes just integral and an integrated part of your day. And then as you do it, it it pays off. It may take longer to pay off, it may be like a year before you drop those five pounds because you only have time for a 30-minute walk or a 25-minute jog or whatever that is. But I love that. It's about like looking at ourselves and saying, what what what can I do today that would be reasonable?

SPEAKER_03 33:11

And I think it's so hard though, because as three, I can say people pleaser overachievers, we want to go big or go home. And you want the results, right? And it's kind of like we we're used to setting that up in businesses. How do we do it for ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 33:26

But but you're exactly right. Like this is re-patterning. This is rewiring a pattern that we've always told ourselves. Well, unless it's XYZ, it's not worth it. Like, unless it's, you know, uh hit, you know, 30 minute, I'm sweating, I'm doing unless it's that or whatever, like the nth degree is, it doesn't count. This is where we have to rewire this. Because if you're burnt out, like the last thing you need to do is some over-the-top work. You need to actually intentionally go back. But here, think about it this way: we are an app, like we are a pressure cooker of stress every day, right? There's more on our plate, there's more drama, there's fires to put out, there's struggles our kids are having, whatever that is. Think of every three-minute tiny little window. And I don't care if it's a song you listen to, again, walking to your mailbox, like think of it as the pressure release valve on the pressure cooker, yeah, just dissipating a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

That's my like looking at the vegetable garden. I step out and take a look at it.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

And it especially, I think, for me, just to, I mean, and this works for ever example, but just because I'm looking introspectively at myself, stay-at-home mom, I'm like, oh, I'll do this when my husband gets home. I'm gonna explode. My pressure cooker lid is gonna end up in the front yard if I don't release throughout the day. That's right. And then you take it out on your pork sweet family. Oh, I do it all the time. And they're like, mom's crazy again? What's happening? Yes, I am. Well, her hormones are cut in half. And what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Literally, yeah. Well, yeah, and that's the thing. I think it's relearning that like it does count.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Every little bit of that, it does count. And it's it's this way to kind of get our nervous system back. And then, of course, you stack, you can stack habits. So then I talk to women about like, okay, let's it's not 5 a.m., but it's like, what sort of stacked window of maybe a five-minute routine in the morning and a five-minute routine can you anchor your day in? Um, and we just start to create some pockets, and it's it's crazy how your brain will start to like work like want those rituals.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

So, anyway, that's where I start. Because also, if you want to do deeper work of like healing and working through burnout, you cannot do so if you're tired, like exhausted because you're not sleeping, you're you know, not fueling yourself, you're not moving your body. And so it really is like getting back to some of these basics.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Well, what I love about it too, Ellen, is because you have you're making it simplified for this audience, but as you're talking for those who are more into like the science, right? The aspects that you're talking about when you talk about the deep work or understanding why, okay, that's your psychological aspect. When you talk about habits, it's reframing your neurological pathways, which is all about this we still have neuroplasticity and we can retrain ourselves. And I think there's just if we don't hear anything else in this episode, our capability and capacity for retraining how we think and what we do is not um definite. It is infinite, and we have to start reframing that it can happen at any stage, and we have to know that it maybe it won't happen as easily as it did when we were 20. We might have a longer time, you know, establishing habits and reconstructing our neural pathways, but we can do it. And I know I'm getting like again, Ashley is like scholar, but but at the same time, like I think there's just a fundamental reframe because a lot of times we find ourselves, Ellen, saying, Ah, it's just the way I am. This is I just have to learn how to deal with this is just the way I am, or this is just who I am, and this is and that kind of like settling in and not allowing ourselves to grow and to learn how to operate differently can really hold us back from enjoying a healthy, happy life, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

So he yes, totally. But here's here's a reframe on that reframe a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

I give it to you. There are a lot, we a lot of us do have these patterns, right? I am a perfectionist and I know that I can overthink stuff, right? And really ruminate on stuff. But instead of like really, oh, well, I need to rewire that. What I do is I say, well, that's part of my process.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I integrate it, right? I integrate it. So I know I'm gonna like start, and part of it is I'm gonna wanna sit in this place of retooling, rethinking. And if I can like accept that and move through it more quickly, then that's a win for me. Versus like, oh, like if like Ashley, you resonated as being a people pleaser. That actually is can be like a wonderfully beautiful thing, right? I love the people in my life.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

I receive the rewards of that.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Don't stop. I love gifting. So it's it's not about like rewiring the parts of that. Own them, right? It's about when what is the part where I catch myself, okay. Part of my process is I'm gonna wanna overextend or over give or under, you know, I'm I'm not gonna want to speak up for myself. So how do I see that as, oh, okay, this is I moved through this process. This is now the point. I wanna, I wanna change this or say something differently or really investigate it versus because I think when we think about like patterns and burnout, we can also go to this sense of wanting to like, well, I've got to overhaul everything. This this is what people I mean, Ashley, I love what you said. Like, I just like to not have responsibility. I felt that way. Holy crap. As a corporate exec, I was like, if I could not have the pressure anymore, eject button, I would like eject button, but I couldn't. I was the breadwinner, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Um, and then that makes even then it's like this obligation on top of burnout that can also be exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Well, and I think too, like we always talk about this age, we're starting to accept who we are. So I love how you're saying that too, Ellen. Like, you know your your patterns, we want to alter them, but you also have to live through them because I think then you start to feel bad about it or chastise yourself. Exactly, and then you can't get out.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, that's right. That is exactly right. I yes, I'm fangirling you because literally that is what people will say, like, I hate this part of me.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Yeah, rejecting it.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

And the exactly, and the more you reject it, the more like it becomes a whole thing, right? Instead of like, actually, how do we just integrate that as part of the process? The reason the word process is helpful is because it shows that's a temporary step as you move through something. So we're not rejecting it, we're just going, yep. And I'll I mean, I'll even say, like, I'm like, oh, here I go again.

unknown 39:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

I love it. And how loving that phrase is totally here. I am being myself. Oh, sensey here.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

And if I do that for two days instead of two weeks this time, then I feel like I'm I'm I'm moving through it versus like I've got to stop doing that.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Totally. I love this kind of like because this also hits on so many levels. This conversation on burnout, it's going into self-love. Yeah, it's going into self-improvement. It's about being kind to ourselves and evolving. And I could talk about this for hours actually. I think that what what we will do is we will be sharing some information about Ellen. So hang with us to the end. But before we do that, Ellen, we'd love to just do a light little lightning round with you, get to know you a little bit more. So if you had time to prep for these, I don't know. If you didn't, it's even better. Um we like no prep. So I'll kick it off with the first question, then we'll go back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

So what is your ideal weekend?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

If you could choose what to do and you had no responsibilities, what would that look like?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Okay, I was like, I should say time with my husband.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

We all should. I will, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

I know. Who I adore. Who I adore, who's wonderful everywhere. But I what I would want to do is I would want to like get a lake house, like a rental lake house, short getaway, and allow my kids to bring their like closest pals. Because I'm at that stage where life feels very like my kids are uh two are in high school, one's in middle school. And it's like I want the sweet, I feel so happy with like a full house, a full table, the noise, joyful kids, the noise, the chaos. Because I'm in that period of recognizing like, you know, there there is, I don't want to be dour about it, but there is this sense of like in a few years, life will look a lot different. So it would be it would be like the chaos, and then of course I'd need a week to recover, but but something like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

I love that you're like, if I could force my three children with me in a lake house for an entire weekend, because they don't, they want to go to their friends' house, they want to go right, yeah, totally that's why we'd have to bring the friends to us so that we could be the party house.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

I love it, I love it too. Yeah, well, I'm coming.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

That'd be it. Yeah, I mean, literally, the more the better.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

I make some good snacks. She brings the fun. Exactly. Okay, next question. I believe it. Who inspires you?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Who inspires me? Okay. Um this is okay. So here's genuinely who's surprised who inspires me. Not the people that are doing like the showy big stuff. The people that inspire me are the people that are doing like the quiet, hard work. Like who have these sort of conversations, these realizations that they need to change and evolve. And it doesn't look flashy, but it looks like I'm gonna consistently, you know, learn more about myself. I'm gonna sort of rebuild whatever that looks like for me, my relationships, my life, my parenting, whatever that looks like. Um, I know that sounds a little cheesy, but those those types of like people, and I get the joy of like working one-on-one with them regularly, and I'm like, it's just so brave. Like quiet work is the bravest work. Um and so getting like a live seat for that, um, and it's the hardest. It's the hardest stuff because you're really having to like unpack some stuff, but that like truly inspires me for sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Oh, that's beautiful. Um, let's see here. We'll have two more questions and then we'll highlight some things of how you can keep in touch with you, Ellen. So do you have a mantra that you use when maybe your life gets difficult or challenging? Is there something that you think I think and it kind of kicks you back into reality?

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah, so one thing that changed my life about 10 years ago was reading this saying, everything's happening for me, not to me. And so recognizing, like, you know, that like oh, if if something's hard, I just haven't learned that part yet. But but this experience is is is for me in some way to grow, to learn, to evolve, something like that, versus feeling like these things are coming at me. So that that was that's how I try to really see see things. And um it helps me to feel like I'm part of that like learning experience versus like oh I'm just like being you know drug alone.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

Yeah, yeah. It's forging your path, right? In a sense, of just it's less victimy of like why, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:36

And it's more about how. Like this is happening, so how is this going to impact me? How can I go through this, right? I love I love that reason. And how can I turn it into something positive, right? And own it, not rejecting it.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Like I just, and like if something's hard, I just have I haven't learned that thing yet. Like, there's a component of like, I just I want to recognize, like, it doesn't mean I'm broken or whatever. It's like, oh, I haven't been through this experience yet. Like, how am I gonna navigate this?

SPEAKER_03 45:00

I love it. Same. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Because I'd love to say I always spelled that, you know, and that like inspired and altruistic. That's usually after a freak out. Of course. You gotta go play the breakdown.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Wait, what are what are the kids saying now? A crash out? Is that what it is? A crash, a crash out? Yes. I was like, what's a crash? You're so cool. I mean, my hairdresser said it to me, and I was like, I don't even know what that is. Girl, I know. Total crash out. Total crash out. Yeah, I know. All right. Well, last question. What's one piece of advice you would have for someone who is experiencing burnout right now?

SPEAKER_01 45:33

The biggest piece of advice is do not overhaul your whole life. Like, do not make a dramatic decision. Um, because it and because true burnout, right? There's lots, people use burnout in very different ways, but true burnout is really a nervous system depletion. And to do something big and, you know, a major change is adding more uncertainty, more instability, you know, that it which is exactly what your your nervous system is already struggling with. And so I think, you know, that's and that's our tendency to do something huge to fix it. And this is where I really think we need to kind of go the opposite way. What can I stabilize so that I can then rebuild my own sort of like uh capacity back up and shift? So that that's the big thing I would say.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

I love that shift of thinking of stabilizing because I think in those times of chaos and unknown, having that stable point will keep you grounded.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

It's like throw a little water on the fire. Like don't, don't like, yeah, like sprinkle it, like get it down to a smolder.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

You can get you can get bangs, but don't break up bangs or don't don't shave the side of your head. No.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Yeah, don't get bangs, right? Don't get bangs, yeah. And a lot of I will say obviously there are workplaces that really are like you cannot it, they're not conducive to it.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

So there are always exceptions where people really do have to make some big changes. But I think like the the common language right now is just quit and start a start your own business or something.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Yeah. And that's true.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Like there's a level of like creative capacity and mental reserves, and like you need to do that. And so layering on more pressure, more urgency to fix it. Trust me on that. That is that's that's not a good not the way not the timing, not the timing for that.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

So Ellen, I think you've really allowed us all to think about burnout in a very different way. And I love this whole conversation. I think for any of our listeners out there that really found this to be evolving for them in terms of how they're looking at burnout. If you want to have more insights from Ellen, I highly, high, highly encourage each of you to find Ellen on Instagram at Hey Ellen Meyer. And also we will put in the show notes links to your website with your coaching site, as well as this personal pattern quiz, which spoiler alert, Ashley and I took right before this call, and it felt like a horoscope, and I felt called out. I was very called out.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

I was like, does it-spying on you? I know. I'm an over I'm the overthinking spiral. Could you tell?

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Um I'm the I'm the hustle trap, and I was like, uh-oh, felt really called out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Okay. Okay. The approval anchor is a big one too.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

I was high on that. Yeah. But I need to be like, yeah, told I'm pretty and say like all of those things. But anyway, Ellen, this has been a complete joy. We're so, so grateful for you to spend time with bubbles and breakdowns. And for our listeners, uh, please remember that after every breakdown, don't forget the bubbles.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

If you're loving us, please join us and listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Check out our Instagram and follow Ellen. We have had such a great conversation. Um, we'll catch you next time.