Breaking the Silence: Mental Health, Mindset, and Growth After Special Forces

Former Green Beret Nick O’Kelly joins Daniel Fielding to discuss mental health stigma, self-awareness, and resilience in high-performance environments. A powerful conversation on courage, vulnerability, and growth.

Topics Covered:

• Mental health in Special Forces
• Stigma and vulnerability
• Self-awareness and mindset
• Routine and structure
• Personal transformation

Chapters

00:00 Mental Health and High-Performance Culture
 00:41 Nick O’Kelly’s Journey to Special Forces
 03:28 Stress, Aviation, and Mental Health Challenges
 08:00 Self-Advocacy and Recognizing the Warning Signs
 11:41 Alcohol, Sleep Deprivation, and Mental Health
 15:02 Breaking Mental Health Stigma in the Military
 16:43 Grace, Healing, and Self-Awareness
 18:40 Leadership and Emotional Intelligence
 21:38 Writing Stigma and Sharing the Message
29:59 Call to Action: Speak Up
30:28 Translating Military Lessons to Civilian Life
35:01 Mindset Shifts for Personal Growth
41:45 Building Habits That Support Mental Health
52:34 Overcoming Isolation and Shame
58:38 Vulnerability as Strength

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Produced by Security Halt Media

Transcript

Set The Mission And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to the Asset Mindset Podcast, where we don't wait for opportunities, we create them. I'm your host, Daniel Fielding, former Green Beret and author of the Asset Mindset. Today we have a special guest, Nick O'Kelly, an author, Green Beret, and Night Stalker pilot. So, Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, man. I am blessed to be here. It's great to have you. And this isn't about motivation, it's about transformation. In each episode, we dive deep into the mindset, habits, and mission-driven thinking that turn everyday people into high performers and real life warriors. And you are a perfect guest for this show. So I'm excited to dive in. Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Thanks, man. Yeah, so I um I'll just start from the beginning. I grew up in Western Washington, uh, family of six. So older sister, younger brother, younger sister. Um grew up in a very like strict Christian household, which had its pros and cons, you know. It uh it taught us discipline at a very young age. Um but when I went to college, I kind of got a taste of freedom and the guardrails were off for my parents, so went off the rails and didn't go to class, you know, and partied and discovered all that scene. Um so dropped out of college, had to do something with my life, and that's when I went to the recruiter and signed the dotted line for an 18 x-ray contract. Um and yeah, I don't know if do you want me to do the full, full background, full story?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Whatever you want to share, brother. I mean Okay.

Nick’s Path To Special Forces

Switching To Aviation And 160th

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yeah, let's just give you, I'll just give you the quick overview. So go to SF. Um, I was an 18 x-ray. I was fortunate to make it all the way through. Uh went to first group, first battalion, so out in Okinawa, spent about three years on a team, and then dropped my flight packet. So it was one of those decisions where um, well, the catalyst was my son was born about three weeks prior to uh Philippines deployments, like a six-month or my wife was just kind of treading water during that deployment, and I kind of saw the writing on the wall long term, you know, if I stayed in that lifestyle, that it would have negative repercussions on the family. So aviation looked like the answer. Um, similar culture from what I thought. Um, you know, big boy rules, grow your hair out, unblouse your boots. But uh, I was faced with a staunch reality once I got there that that was not really the case. Um, so spent about two, well, flight school was two years, then a year in the regular army, did went to Afghanistan with Third Combat Aviation Brigade. And then I I dropped my 160th packet during that deployment because I was like, I was either getting out of the army or I was making 160th. I was just fed up with the the regular army atmosphere and reactiveness and just lack of lack of uh being proactive, I guess. So went to one six the one sixtith, and we'll get into the mental health stuff, I'm sure, later. But uh got to the 160th, spent um the rest of my career there until I eventually got medically grounded and retired um for reasons we can get into. But but yeah, that's my overall career story. And then now I own a financial planning firm here in Charlotte, North Carolina, serving uh mostly veterans. Um and write wrote the book Stigma and just enjoying every every step of the way, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

I love it. You've been living with passion and purpose. It's great, man. So uh for listeners you don't know, when uh Nick's talking about an 18 X-ray contract, the 18 series is special forces, and so he came in off the street with a contract to go and become a special forces Green Beret. So what year did you do that in? That was in 2010. 2010, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, so I graduated the pipeline June 2012.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Oh, nice. Yeah, nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Oh, I'll after my time, I'm feeling old.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

It's all good.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, yeah. It's still, you know, you spend some time at Camp McCall, Camp Slappy. Oh, yeah, or SEER schools. Then now, quick question on that. Well, I mentioned SEER school. When you uh went to 160th, because I've went through SEER school with 160th pilots, did you have to go back through search school again?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Luckily, no. So since it was the same tier, CRC, I was good to go. Yeah. Nice. Um, which actually kind of screwed me in flight. So every pilot goes to seer school. Um, but in flight school, that's it's kind of like baked into the pipeline. And since I didn't have to go, they kind of like lost track of me. It was me and another one six former 160th crew chief um or maintainer, and they lost us. Like we were in a hold for like six months, and then finally we reached out to the company and we were like, hey guys, like where when are we classing up? And they're like, Yeah, I could we could tell it was like a oh shit, we've we overlooked these guys, you know? And then lo and behold, we got classed up, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Lesson learned, speak up. You gotta be your best advocate, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:13

100%, man.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

And that can bring us into um some of the mental health stuff. Uh speaking up when you have problems, let's share stigma. And what's your message, brother?

SEAR, Systems, And Speaking Up

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Yeah, for sure. So especially in these like special operations world and these high-performing worlds, we're so good at just pushing and pushing and pushing, right? And doing everything it takes to be successful. And we're also very good at sacrificing for the better, the the good, right? The overall good. When it comes to ourselves, we suck at speaking up, we suck at advocating for ourselves, right? We are the we are our own worst enemy in that regard. And I was definitely guilty of that. So when I transitioned to flight school about a year after that, my my daughter was born. So we had two kids under two. My wife was active duty as well, so she's working nine to five, you know. We're just kind of we're just in full-on like survival mode, just you know, get through it and get it done. I'm in flight school, not sleeping. So it was just a bunch of like life stressors that added up um that I didn't see coming, right? I I didn't have the mentality of like, man, maybe I should slow down or maybe I should do something to take care of my mental health, right? I was very ignorant to that because frankly, I'd never had any struggles ever. Like I didn't, I thought I was immune to it, to be fair. I thought it was something that happens to weak to weak people, you know. I was very much bought into that attitude. Um, but when it hit me, it humbled me real quick. And it was it wasn't like a slow decline. It was I was sitting in class one day, literally learning about Blackhawk engines, nothing dramatic, nothing crazy. And I just got an invasive suicidal thought out of nowhere. It just punched me in the face. And then um my this is all in retrospect, right? But my reaction to that initially, because I'm a I'm the type of dude that when something goes wrong, I want to fix it. Like I want to find a solution, I want to, you know, figure out a way to not have it happen again. So that's what I did is I I almost obsessed over the thoughts to like try to fix them, try to identify where they came from, and ultimately not have them come back. But what that did was that reinforced the thoughts over and over and over again and until the point where it just it took hold of me, man, and I didn't have a solution for it, which was frustrating in itself, you know. So but it's easy to fall down that path, you know. Um so yeah, so that's that was the nexus of it was it was just a bunch of chronic stress that just cascaded all at once, you know, and and put me down.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Do you think you had um analysis, paralysis, as they say, when you started, you know, you had this thought and then now you're trying to analyze it and focus on it. Did that create that spiral?

The First Suicidal Thought

SPEAKER_02 8:20

I think so. I think it was a little bit of that, and then also as I mentioned, like just giving the thoughts so much attention, you know, unin like unintentionally, but also maybe subconsciously is a better way to put it, right? Like and I was I was so mean to myself too, you know, like I wasn't okay with the fact that this was happening to me, which I is a normal reaction, but almost to the extreme where I was like, I have no excuse to be feeling this way, you know. I have I'm crushing it in flight school, I have a beautiful wife, beautiful kids, everything is looking good, my life looks great, my life should be great. I have no excuse at all to be feeling this way, and that's how I was talking to myself, right? That's how I was viewing myself. So it took a big toll on well, obviously that didn't help me get out of the pit, but it also took a toll on even just my self-confidence, man. Like whether other people noticed or not, which I don't think they did, but deep down I I knew it and I felt it, you know. I felt that like self-confidence shift of like what is wrong with me? There's something wrong with me, you know? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

No, it does. I'm I'm curious now, like, so you know, you talked about everything was going well. You have all these wonderful blessings in life, but stress was there and had these thoughts come into your head. What do you think were the stressors or the catalysts that created this?

Analysis Paralysis And Self-Talk

SPEAKER_02 9:57

I know a couple of them are the the major ones were lack of sleep or inconsistent sleep, right? Like I was in flight school, you're there's days where you have to be at the bus at four in the morning when you're flying days, and then you're the next week you might be flying nights, you know. So your circadian rhythm's all jacked up. Pair that with having kids at home who aren't sleeping, you know, and babies at home and things like that. Your wife is my wife was like running on fumes as well, you know, because she's dealing with all this. And then the second part of that, which is my own doing, is the drinking, right? The drinking culture that is so prominent in the military, man. I was I was drinking to have fun, but then once this happened to me, I was drinking to hide it. I was drinking because it was the only thing that temporarily numbed the thoughts, you know. And it became it became a habit, you know, it just became something I do. Like I come home, whatever, get my workout in, and then start drinking. That was that was it, man. That was my like daily routine, if you will. So it's very dangerous, but um yeah, but yeah, those those factors for sure. So stress paired with that was just not a good combo.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

No, absolutely. And especially when you you talk about routine while you're in a negative routine, like you yeah you train hard, work hard, and now like, oh, I've been programmed. The habit is I'm gonna have a drink to unwind. This is how I relieve stress. I hear people all the time, like, hey, I just gotta, you know, I'm gonna have a couple drinks, relax, unwind, really, and you're not your body. Mentally, you think you're doing that to yourself, but physically, what's going on? Alcohol is a depressant. Widely known. Do your research, you know? Like, yeah, come on, people, you you can figure it out, it's out there. Um, lack of sleep, man, there's so many studies on how lack of sleep is just detrimental to the body. So talk to me about the lack of sleep and what what that was doing to you.

Sleep Debt, Alcohol, And Anxiety

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Well, I think also you add drinking on top of that, you know, and your sleep, like, yeah, my sleep was inconsistent, but then you add that where your sleep is inconsistent and extremely poor quality, you know, that's just like a recipe for disaster, especially when you're when it's not just like a you know, one-time thing. Like that's that was an ongoing thing for geez, I don't even know, years, you know. Like, so I was so I was almost putting my body into forcing itself to work in overdrive, you know, because I had all these, I thought I was doing everything right, to be honest. Like, because all my friends were doing the same thing, you know? All my buddies that were with me were doing the same exact thing. They're on the same schedule as me. They're drinking just as much. Like, so it felt normal. It didn't feel like there was something abnormal about it. But looking back on it, I just it's amazing how I even functioned and my buddies functioned, right? Like, and you've been in that culture, like that's that's very common, is you're highly functioning alcoholics, essentially, you know, you get the job done, but then you're treating yourself like shit, you know. Work hard playoff as a result, right? Exactly. You know, but we don't we don't look at the like negative consequences of that in the moment, you know. We're just thinking we're having a good time or whatever. So yeah, the the sleep, the sleep was a huge part though. The sleep, I mean, yeah, it it's one of those this is another thing that wasn't should have been apparent at the time, but it wasn't because I thought I was bulletproof, you know. I thought I was just 10 feet tall and bulletproof and could just keep going forever doing what I was doing. But looking back on it, man, that was I don't know how I did it. Like, cause today, if I don't get like seven hours of sleep, I I know, you know, I'm I'm a wreck.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, it's one of those things that you don't realize how vital it is. Because we've been taught and we were trained, anybody in special operations, whatever branch, you embrace the suck. You just suck it up. I'm hard, I can deal with it, I don't have sleep, I'm tired, uh, I don't have some drinks, I'm hungover, whatever, I'm gonna still run and do PT in the morning. I don't care if I throw, I'm I can do it, I'll just push through, push through, push through. And that's fine when you're young and your body's kind of fresh still and you can do that, but man, it it takes its toll. And you can only push through so long before you break. And I think that's what your story is that you're sharing that is very impactful. And I'm proud of you for sharing it because a lot of people don't want to, because we have that hard shell like, hey, I'm a green beret, I'm special operations, I'm just gonna drive on, I don't care. And you know what? That's not the way to live. Be hard, be tough, great, love that stuff. But you also want to be the best you you can be. And to do that, you got to take care of yourself mentally and physically.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah, 100%, man. And that's that's why I thank you for saying that, by the way, because first of all, talking about this and opening that can of worms was the hardest thing I ever did. Like I bar none, man, through all the selections, assessments, whatever, like me getting the courage to say this is what happened to me. Um, yeah, dude, that was not easy. And I was terrified of how it would be received because of the culture we grew up in, you know. So that's that's why I'm so passionate about it, because it really is like a cultural systemic problem, in my opinion, is the the view that mental health is weakness, the view that, you know, mental health makes you a terrible person or weak or less than like that that culture is so poisonous. Um, and it keeps so many people trapped in the darkness for way longer than they need to be, you know, it did for me at least. So so that's why I'm so passionate about it, man, because yeah, it wasn't easy to talk about, but grateful I am for sure.

Culture, Stigma, And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, I'm grateful you are too, and I'm sure there's a lot of other people out there that are grateful. And we're talking about, you know, being special operators and embracing the suck and pushing through, but man, you regular people out there, civilians, it's life, man. Life's gonna push you. You're gonna just, oh, I'll suck it up. This is life. Like, no, you need to speak up, you need to get help, you need to work on yourself, you need to take care of yourself. So, someone that's maybe stuck right now, what would you tell them to do, whether they're in the military or not?

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah. First first thing, the most impactful thing for me was once I realized the word grace and what that means towards myself, right? Like I talked about how I was negative self-talking to myself, and that just perpetuated this this negative cycle and this depression, anxiety, whatever. This negative self-talk was so dangerous, and I didn't know that's what was keeping me stuck, but it was one of the driving factors that kept me in that negative place. So once I acknowledged the fact that this was depression, this was anxiety, and it wasn't easy, but once I accepted that, that that was my reality, right? And I could look at it from I almost like an outsider's view of what was going on with me, that that was monumental for me. Being able to have the awareness that this this is what's happening and it's okay. And you're not a piece of shit because you're dealing with this, you know, like this is just your reality. Let's figure out a way through it instead of being so condemning towards yourself. So that would be the number one thing I would say, man, is don't be ashamed and don't be hard on yourself because it's happening, whether you like it or not, if it is, you know, and that's just gonna make it worse. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

No, I I love that you use give yourself grace. Like understand you're a person, you have emotions. We all are human beings, you know. We get happy, we get sad, we get mad, we get glad. I sound like a Dr. Seuss book. Yay! People are gonna love the podcast now. Love it, but no, seriously. Um, I think the grace is so important, and you keyed on another thing that's very powerful: self-awareness. Like being objective, step back, look at your life. Talk to me about self-awareness. Yeah.

Grace And Self-Awareness

SPEAKER_02 18:49

The most underrated trait, character trait, in my opinion, self-awareness allows you to. I mean, not even on the mental health side. Let's just talk about like special operations and the value of being a self-aware operator, right? Or special operations guy. Having the humility to realize that you're probably not the smartest guy in the room on every single subject matter, or maybe not any subject matter, right? There's always somebody else that's around you that can supplement what you're doing. And having that self-awareness as not just as a soldier, but as a leader as well, realizing that as a 05 or something, you have first sergeants and sergeant majors that have been in the army for so much longer and seen so much things and have such a different perspective. Being self-aware enough to acknowledge your limitations and lean on those senior NCOs or those counterparts, whatever it might be, that is like the ultimate leadership trait, in my opinion, is acknowledging that you don't know everything and there's other people that can help you, you know, when when there's a knowledge gap or an experience gap. Um, but then on the mental health side, that's it, man, is just acknowledging, acknowledging that you're going through something, not trying, not actively trying to pretend like everything's okay, because that's what we're taught to do. We're taught to hide it, we're toss taught to mask all the symptoms, pretend like everything's fine, and just move on. And I know we're beating a dead horse here, but that's so dangerous, man. That is so dangerous, and that's what keeps people trapped. And that leads to potential collateral damage, right? Whether it's we know, we all know the suicide rates are way too high. That's obviously the worst case scenario, but there's a spectrum of things that happen when a lot of us go through these mental health struggles, right? Whether it's like divorce, whether for me it was just I was a zombie of myself. I was not an active father, I was not a present father, I was a distant husband, and I was just going through the motions. There was no intention behind anything that I was doing at home. Everything, all of my energy was going into work and then selfishly trying to fix myself. So I mean, it's valuable that I had that self-awareness, but I wish I would have had the courage to do something about it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

So yeah, that's well, you did do something about it. That's why you're here. That's right. You just wish you did it sooner.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Touche. Touche. Because I learned yeah, I I learned the I learned the hard way. Um, and hopefully through my lessons, other people won't do the same thing I did. But yes, eventually I did get help, and I am extremely grateful for you. I'm proud of you for that.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And that's one of the things I didn't want to let you beat yourself up a little bit too much because you know, like brother, what you're doing, like you said, our community to share these stories and to put them out there, that's it's scary because.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

We're the badass, the American badass, you know, Green Beret, Special Forces, Navy SEALs, like, you know, you're supposed to be unbreakable, you know, mentally tough, physically tough.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

And, you know, we're people too. I joke with my kids all the time. You know, especially my son who's now 18. You know, he's like, oh dad, you were a green beret. And I'm like, I'm still a person. Like I still have feelings, you know. My flesh still gets bruised.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Like, yeah, I I can take the pain, but I don't want to. Like, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

That's that's what I say. Is like, we're just normal people that did really hard things, you know? Yeah. That's that's it, man. We're still human beings with emotions. Um, but yeah, no, it's it's it's been a uh it's been a journey for sure. I will say one of the most interesting things is seeing the culture perpetuated on like a a bigger scale, right? So like when I go on a a podcast or something and just seeing like the the plethora of comments, like you got the one side that's like, you know, you're a pussy type of thing. And then you got the one side that's like, I'm so grateful that you're telling your story. And that's almost like a snippet and a snapshot of our culture, right? Like we still have that that half or whatever it is, that's like mental health is weakness, you're a liability, you should have, you know, done that. You know what I mean? Like there's still that dichotomy out there, and that's why I still that's why I'm so like that's why my book I think is so important for leaders to read, man, and for anybody, just perspective, you know, just open your mind and soften your heart and learn some perspective.

Who Needs This Message Beyond Military

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah, there's I can see where a lot of people still kind of have that because it's like, oh, don't be a crybaby. Yeah, there's a difference between, oh, being a crybaby and oh, poor me, and I get a victim mentality. To hey, I'm fucking tired, I'm stressed, I'm having these thoughts that I just want to be done and end things. Yeah, there's a difference, you know. So I think people need to realize that, you know. We live in the gray zone a lot of times, we joke about, right? Like, oh, we operate in the gray, it's not black, it's not white. Well, that's mental health. You know, it's the same thing. You you gotta accept it and don't break somebody down because of it. You should be there to lift them up, make them stronger, patch them up. 100%, man. And I think that's what you're doing with your book. So let's get into that more. Share how the how'd the process go. Um, obviously it's based on you, but talk us through it. Yeah, for sure.

Writing Stigma: Process And Purpose

SPEAKER_02 24:47

So it was uh took about two and a half years from idea to completion. The the nexus of it, the idea of it, was when I was I was going through the medical retirement process, my little brother, who's also a Green Beret, um, yeah, right, humble brag on my parents there. They did a good job. But but um we were we were hanging out, and this is the first time that I told him why I was actually getting medically retired. Because I even to that point, even when I was getting out of the army, I hadn't told anybody except for like my wife, because I was still just ashamed of it and I didn't want to, yeah, didn't want the let to let the cat out of the bag. So I tell my brother and I told him it's dude, like been struggling with depression, suicidal ideations, whatever, for almost five years, you know. And he broke down, dude. Like he was in his mind, and I could see it, he was looking at me like, dude, you could not be here talking to me right now, you know, like we could have lost you because that happens all the time, as we know. Um, and we both just started bawling, like, you know, just on you know, it just happened. And he goes, Why didn't you tell me, dude? Like, why the hell did you not tell me? I'm your brother. If anybody should know and could know, it's me. And I'm like, bro, like even I know. And I was like, even you, I couldn't risk telling. In my mind, I told myself I couldn't even risk telling you because if you felt obligated to pick up the phone and call one of my buddies or call my command, that's that was my biggest fear, right? Was losing my career and losing everything. And he looked back at me and he was like, dude, that is a massive problem. And I was like, Yeah, man, that's that's stigma, that's it. And that's where that's where the idea started, and that's when I was like, I gotta, I gotta get this out, I gotta put this on paper and just get my story out there. So, um, so that was the beginning. And then the process, it started with me just word vomiting my entire story onto a Word document. Like it was like 70,000 words of just like essentially my my timeline and my story and what had happened to me. Um, and then as it progressed, I I found the right people. So I found a writing coach and editor and all the whole team. And my writing coach basically helped me restructure it and turn it into a high quality book and an actual like product other than just a memoir that I, you know, word vomited on. So it was a really cool experience. Um, I got to see, I'm impressed, very impressed, with how much goes into writing a book. Like I definitely underestimated it because I thought, like, yeah, and you're familiar, but I thought like guilty. Once yeah, once I had that word doc, I was like, all right, we're good, submit it, you know. And she was like, no, dude, like you uh, we have a lot of work to do before it's ready to do anything with. So um, but it was really it was an awesome experience, man. I brought in uh I brought in a couple other people as well to share their stories in it, um, so get some different perspectives on on stigma and just how like deep-rooted it is because well, one, I didn't want everybody to just look at me as one example, you know, and think I was like an outlier. I wanted it to hit home that this is like a systemic problem and an institutional problem. And then um also brought my wife in. So she wrote a chapter and she did it from her perspective, basically, like what does a military spouse actually deal with? And what warning signs did she see in me that other people can potentially pick up on, even if their husband or significant other isn't talking about it or isn't being open about it, right? So, one example of that is like there was a phase where I read a book called Play by Stuart Brown, and it's about it's it's a self-help book, but the intent behind it is like you're just not enjoying your life, you're not doing things you know that bring you joy. So find some hobbies that bring you joy. So I started hobby hunting hard, man. Like I went to a pawn shop and bought a guitar and like tried to teach myself guitar, and like it was there's just a list goes on, but that's just one example, right? So like that that might be a small thing, and it seemed like might seem like oh, he's just trying to, you know, learn something new and better himself. But the reality is I was running from something by doing that, you know. So small insights like that. Um and then the rest of the book process was really just me and my perfectionist, you know, mentality scrubbing the crap out of it and making sure not only like the timeline of my all my medical stuff lined up, but ensuring that all the stories were accurate. I didn't have anything out there that was you know OPSEC or anything like that. So it was like it was just refining it really. Um but yeah, that was that was my book writing journey, and now now it's out, and I am extremely proud of it, man. I'm we we did it right. I'll say that.

Spouse Perspective And Warning Signs

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Congratulations, and you should be proud of it, and you should be proud of all the work you're doing. And I want to also let people know that if you want to know about the book, pause right now, go in the description, and you'll find a link. And go find Nick on Instagram, Facebook, all the places, and follow him, like, support him, subscribe to what he's doing, and of course, follow, like, subscribe to the Asset Mindset Podcast. We appreciate it because we're trying to do positive work, and every little thing you do to help support us and give us a like or a follow helps get us out there in the algorithm and we can do more positive work. So we do appreciate you and thank you for that. So getting back to stigma and the book, yeah. Obviously, it's very much focused on military and the stigma in our community. But I know like so many things in the world, you know, your military stuff will transition to the civilian world. How does this book also transition for civilians and maybe struggles that they're going through?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah, great question. Um if you if you think back to even the reasons that I said I fell into mental health struggles, none of them were because of the army, right? Sure, maybe the the schedule, you know, but it was two kids under two, it was driving hard in my career, it was having a wife who's working full-time and drowning and trying to keep up the house. Like that's not unique to the military. That is a very common thing to go through for, you know, people in their whatever late 20s, early 30s, doesn't or late 30s even now. Um, so the lessons learned from this book, yes, they stemmed from my military career, or like they're surrounded by my military career, but every single one of them is applicable to whatever a CEO, an entrepreneur, a doctor, you know, an athlete. It doesn't matter. Like we life still happens to us, and you don't have to like that's a common misconception, too, is right, is like I'm not allowed to feel this way because I don't have a silver star with valor, you know. Like I didn't get blown up in Afghanistan, so I don't have it as bad as that dude, so it's not okay that I'm feeling this way. I struggled with that too, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Me too. Honestly, brother, that same one, like right, yes.

Curiosity Over Judgment

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Cause because all we see today is these guys that go on these massive podcasts, which I'm not dinging them, it's awesome, right? I love it, and I'm so we're so blessed that we get to, but that's what we see is we see the guys that were, you know, tier one guys who have two silver stars of valor and like did all this crazy shit, and we compare ourselves to them and we're like, I'm nothing compared to them, and I have no right to feel this way, you know. And I'm sure, well, I know for a fact that civilians do that as well, right? Like, I wasn't in the military, I wasn't in special operations, so I can't relate to them. Um, but the reality is, man, we're all living life, we're all just going through life. We're all we all have stress in our career, right? It might be a different kind of stress, but that stress can still add up over time and can still can still put you in that bad place. So it's extremely applicable to anybody out there, man, and anybody can get something out of this book. Everybody will, I guess. And the reason I say that, it's not just for people who are struggling, it's also for people to have awareness and get perspective, right? So my goal with this book is that every new like second lieutenant has to read this book because then a year later, when they're dealing with that E3 who's on suicide watch and struggling, they have perspective of potentially why he's struggling, and they're not condemning him and acting like he's a piece of crap for what he's going through, right? They're they're more curious and approach it with more curiosity, um, which will go a long way for our culture and for changing our culture.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

I like what you said there, adding curiosity. I think people are not taking advantage of curiosity enough, like trying to understand what's going on. Because that's what curio curios curiosity is, is trying to figure things out. Like, why is this happening? What's going on? I think that's very important and crucial. So that's a great word you used, and I hope the audience you're picking up on that.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Thanks. Yeah, because it's I mean, it's almost the opposite of judgment, right? Where we're s it's so easy to judge somebody based on one piece of data or another piece of data or whatever, or a snippet that you see, you know. But if you approach it with curiosity, huh, let me let's see what's behind that. Like, I wonder the why behind what he said, or you know what I mean? And you can dig deeper and you can actually learn the real the reality behind it instead of just looking at a snippet and assuming the worst.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah. So I want to dive in now, Nick, a little bit about you've seen all this, you've been through all this, you have all this experience. Here we like to talk about mindset. So what shifted your mindset? Was there a catalyst or what have you done? Or like how have you got to the mindset where you're at now?

Medication As A Catalyst

Routines, Cold Plunge, And Journaling

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Great question. The the irony behind all this is it started with with actually getting medication, getting on medication. So I know there's a there's a stigma around that, right? There's it's frowned upon a lot, but it the medication, and granted, this took like six different anti-anxiety, depression drugs to finally like get to where I needed to be. But once I got on the right medication, what that did was allow me to have the space and clarity to analyze like when so I was having dizzy spells, backtrack a little bit. I was having these dizzy spells just all day, every day, randomly. Like it just felt like the world was kind of off kilter. Like it was bizarre. And I didn't know it at the time, but I learned later that it was anxiety and panic attacks. My body was just fight or flight mode, you know, just working, working overdrive. Um, but what the medication did was it it turned those dizzy spells into very like situational dizzy spells. So if I was at like a baseball game or football game, you know, or like at a pumpkin patch with my family, or even in like formation, you know, like basically any situation that I couldn't control the outcome, they would happen. So I was able to bring that back to my psychologist and tell her, hey, now I know when it's happening, now that I'm on this medication. And she was able to diagnose me based on that. So that was the starting point. That was the catalyst catalyst. Well, backtrack. The first catalyst was me actually admitting that I had his I had suicidal ideations, right? It was me getting the balls to be like, yes, this is this is what has happened the last couple years, and this is where I'm at now. Because without that, they would have had no basis to, you know, treat me at all. So that was first step. Second step was getting on medication, which allowed me to really like look at what the problem was and figure out when it was happening. And then the third step, which is ironic because all this meditation, self-help books, journaling, you know, fitness, health, diet, all those things that I had tried before when I was in the storm didn't do anything for me, man. Like nothing. And they were just they were almost more frustrating than they were beneficial because I wanted them to work and I was putting everything into it and it didn't work. So, but once I got to this point where I'm on medication and getting a little more stable, then implementing those tools started to work. They started to get me out of that pit slowly and surely. Um, and then up until today, I've since tapered off the meds, and now I have routine, man. And you talked about it earlier, but routine is so important. Like I cold plunge every single day when I wake up, get up to my office, I do a 10-minute journaling exercise, and then that's how I start my day. And like, granted, there's dropping off kids at school in between there and all that, but but like that's my those two things like set the stage for the rest of my day. And they may seem small, but they are so I can tell if I skip a cold plunge or if I skip journaling and just jump straight into it. Like I feel significantly different, and I can tell the impact that it makes on my day-to-day. So yeah, man, it's just little things like that. And then um on the mental health piece, I'm still not bulletproof. I still have my days that, you know, maybe an intrusive thought comes in and hits me, and I'm like, huh. But now this goes back to the Grace thing. Now I don't say, what the hell's wrong with you? Why are you thinking like that? You don't, you're not, you're not allowed to think like that, right? Now I look at it and I say, huh, that was weird. I've been here before. I know it's gonna pass. That's my mentality now when it happens. And so it's a lot of little things that make a massive difference, man.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yeah, that's huge growth right there. Because I think we're keying in on something very important right now where it's people get stuck in the storm. They have this bad thing come in and now you're stuck. It's like you're walking in the storm. If there's a rain cloud and you keep, you know, looking up at it and walking where it's going, instead of just stop. Oh, it's a storm, let it pass. Let the weather system move through. Like you're you're gonna have rainy days, you're gonna have a blizzard, you're gonna have sunny days. All these things are part of the human experience. So that's where, again, your grace statement, I think, is so powerful. Give yourself grace. All right, you're in a storm. Heck, it's a tornado. Hang tight, hold on, realize the tornado is not gonna stay on top of you forever, it's gonna pass. And we talked about self-awareness too. I think once you notice that, and like you talked about, you have that awareness now, you can shift your thinking. You can be like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm in a storm, but you know, it's gonna pass. So I'm gonna now think about this, or I'm gonna look at that, or I know that when I do this, this helps me. Or heck, I'm gonna go take another cold plunge, you know, and snap myself out of it. Because when you get in cold water, I've done a cold plunge more than once, and it's brutal.

Time Blocking And Entrepreneur Habits

SPEAKER_02 40:45

There's not much you're thinking about when you get in there other than that ice cold. 100%. And and I've actually done that before. Like I was I was just sitting in my office one day and I was like, man, I don't know why I feel so off. And I was like, screw it, I'm just gonna go down. And I did a three-minute cold plunge, it's all it takes. And afterwards, I'm like, all right, I'm good. It's it's wild, man, because I didn't, to be honest, I didn't believe in all that stuff before I did it. And then I started watching some Andrew Huberman and you know getting into the science, and I was like, I'm gonna give it a try. And it's it is a massive impact. It's pretty cool. But yeah, you're right, dude. It's so easy to get caught in the storm and get stuck in the storm. And I I think we get trapped there just because we we don't know how to get out. That's first of all, right? We don't know how to get out. We don't know if we can speak up and get help for it. We either are ashamed of it or scared of it or whatever. Um, and then we're assholes to ourselves, you know, which just is gonna keep you in there. It's gonna keep you in that storm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Absolutely. So we're keen in on habits. You talked about cold plunge, you talked about journaling. What other habits have you seen or found that you can share with people that really are game changers for growth?

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Yeah, great question. Um, for me, as an entrepreneur, time blocking has been my best friend. So I know that's like not necessarily mindset, but it is mindset in a roundabout way, right? Because um, so I run a financial planning firm and I'm doing this, I have doing this mental health advocacy too, right? So I'm almost like dual hatting right now. And I have to time block very intentionally to keep both things successful and keep both things moving forward. So for example, my Mondays is like Monday morning is catch up on emails for an hour, and then the rest of the day is building content and knocking out all the content I need to do for the week. And then the rest of my week, Tuesday through Thursday, is financial planning. It's meeting with clients, getting in the weeds, you know, building financial plans, doing all of that. And then my Friday is a flex day. So my Friday is hey, if you got all your work done, you can go enjoy your day. If there's still work to do, you're catching up on work for the week. So that come Monday, all you have to do is catch up on emails and jump into that content. So that's a small, well, actually, it's a massive thing for me because it dictates my schedule, but it also helps with my mindset because then I know I know what's gonna happen, right? I don't see like all these tasks as like crap, I'm never gonna get to these, or I don't know when I'll get to these. I dedicate my time so that it's built in and structured in that way.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

No, that makes a lot of sense because I'm sure there's a lot of people that just shoot from the hip, so to speak. You know, you're just trying to put out the next fire. Or like we talk in the military, you know, hey, what's the next 20 meter target? Don't worry about that 300 one, the 20 meter target's gonna get you, you know. And you're constantly doing that, and that makes things really Difficult, and you're operating at such a higher stress level than you need to. When it's like, hey, I'm gonna take care of the 20-meter target, but then I'm gonna hit this one, this one, and this one on these days, or whatever it may be. Right. So structure, man, that's that's good stuff. Any other habits?

Perspective Shifts At Work And Home

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Yeah, because it um let's see, gym. Obviously, I well, maybe not obviously, but I I I go to the gym um at least three times a week. So I do give myself a little more grace than I used to on that, but three times a week is like my my benchmark for going to the gym. Um I'm typically able to like work those in at lunchtime, which is very fortunate that I'm able to do that. I know not everybody has that opportunity, but if I stop, if I start slipping on the gym, uh again, man, I can tell my mindset starts slipping. So it's just it's just all those things being consistent and having that routine is so valuable to at least to a guy like me. You know, I'm wired that way that it works really well for me.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah, no, I I feel you on that one. And yeah, I think this all goes back to self-awareness once again. Like you need to pay attention to your body, you need to pay attention to your thoughts. You're gonna see the differences. You've talked about, hey, the cold plunge, I notice a difference if I don't do it. If you don't go to the gym, you notice a difference. If you're not structured, you notice a difference. So pay attention to your lives, people. Look around yourself, look at yourself, be objective, step back. Because I think that's so powerful to be able to, all right, I'm gonna separate myself for a moment from what I'm going on and imagine if I was on the outside looking in. That's an incredible exercise that I've found for people and when I've worked with people, talking to them, like, all right, you shared your story. Well, what if a friend shared that same story? What would you tell him? Wow. The shift is like, oh crap. I have all these answers. I know what I tell my friend, but when it's yourself, man, that's the struggle.

You Are Not Alone: The Firepit Moment

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Yeah, man. That is that's a really good, that's a good perspective exercise, you know. Like I have a I have a business coach, um, and his whole thing is perspective, right? Like if I have something that I'm frustrated about or something that I'm whatever, struggling with, or just I don't know, anything that's not going as I want it to, right? I'll bring it up to him and he'll bring in a totally new perspective into it and try to flip it on its head, right? And say, hey, sure, you got this, this, this going wrong, but what about this, this, this that's going right? Or what about this aspect of what's going wrong that you don't know, you're assuming the worst, but it could turn into a good thing, right? And that's I've been proven wrong by him, or he's been proven right so many times through that, and it's almost like, damn man, like the perspective thing is so easy to overlook, but there's so much value there, man. When you you're able to that's basically what he does, right? He has the objective third person view, and he's looking at what I'm do what I'm going through and with an unbiased, well, maybe a little biased, but generally unbiased point of view, right? And he's able to give me that perspective that I need at the time to to see the good things and everything. So it's been really cool. And that's it's all part of the journey, right? It's all it's all part of learning and optimizing everything in life.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Absolutely. So when do you feel you first were able to do that, like shift your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 47:41

It's to be fair, it's still an ongoing process. Um I mean, I made massive, massive growth once I once I got out of the army and started being vulnerable about this stuff, about the mental health stuff. I I just leaps and bounds of where I was five years ago, you know, because I would have never in my wildest dreams talked about this in a public forum to any extent, right? So that's been a huge perspective shift, is just the the power in the vulnerability, the power in just kind of putting all my deep dark secrets out there, you know, like take it or leave it, either love it or hate it. Um but then in business specifically, that's still an ongoing process. I'll all, you know, I'm still I'm still refining that aspect of my life where it's it's very easy to, especially coming from the special operations background, we have a very we put really high standards on ourselves and on others, which is a good thing, in my opinion. But when that standard isn't met or there's something that gets in the way of meeting that standard, we're also very, very slow to forgive or slow to analyze it from an objective view, right? And we take it personally. So that's been my biggest, that's been my biggest uh mental shift while working, working with him is just that working on that perspective. And he my wife actually tells me this all the time. She says, she says, Nick, like, well, maybe not anymore, but she used to. Nick, we're not Green Berets. We're not special operations guys. Like, stop treating us like that, you know, because I'd get home and I'm like, why the hell is there clothes on the floor? Like, why, why is your why are the dishes not clean, you know, to my kids or something? And she's just like, dude, chill out. Like, it's okay, you know? You need to stop treating us like we're your coworkers. So that's that was that was good. That was really good advice for her. And I'm glad she has the audacity to tell me that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Yeah, yeah. I gotta uh, I don't know, eat some humble pie there too, because my wife has said the same thing to me. We're not special for my son, same thing. Like, I got a farm here, I work the farm, it's raining and it's cold, and you know, they're freezing cold and they want to go inside. I'm like, no, just suck it up. Come on, we gotta get this fence done. And they're like, you know, we're not green berets, right? And I'm like, doesn't matter, this still needs to get done. Yeah, that's not an excuse.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

Yeah, yeah. I know, man. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Oh, yeah, we can we can be really thick up here sometimes for sure. For target target fixated, right? Like they say.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Exactly. Yep. You get in the mode, man.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

You don't want to stop. Yeah, man. We get we got a task here, we gotta finish it.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Exactly. Yep. Yeah, no matter what the cost. Yep. I've no I've noticed that's like a ongoing theme, you know, is just just that. Just like, oh, which is a honestly, it's a really, really good trait. And we are blessed to have that. It's just when you take it too far, that's when that's when it's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Yes. Or we then project that onto other people. Right. We got to realize everybody's different.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

You know, like different people have different breaking points. Some people can withstand the cold better. My wife gets migraines from the cold. What am I gonna be a jerk and be like, oh, just suck it up and get a migraine and be miserable? Right. You know, like, no, then I'm an asshole. Like we're gonna wake up, you know, and we need to do that. And that is back to curiosity. Why is someone feeling this way? Understanding their why. If you were not taking the time to do that, then you're not being an asset to somebody else, and you're just being an ass.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

So that's a good way to put it. I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Curiosity and then and then empathy too, you know, putting yourself in their shoes because I I was actually guilty of that exactly what you just said. Like when I was going through the storm, you know, my wife would get a headache, or like she'd be like, I'm tired, and I would just look at her and be like, drink water, you know, or go to sleep earlier. You know what I mean? Like, almost like no shit, you know, and it's just it's just an ass such an ass, man. Just like you said, like I was just didn't I didn't think two steps or even one step beyond, you know, my statement before saying it. So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

I was gonna sometimes we just react. So but anyway, I want to um change up one more thing. I want I definitely want to hit before we start wrapping up because we're almost at an hour. Um, I do want to talk about uh being alone and feeling alone. Because I think with stigma or what we're at in a dark place, civilian, military, whatever you are. If you're in a dark place, you feel alone. Please address that and share with us how to deal and cope.

Book Links, Reviews, And Closing Charge

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Man, yeah, you you hit the nail on the head. That is it is the most isolating thing ever, I think. Um, being depressed and feeling like you have no worth. Um you I legitimately thought I was going crazy. I I legitimately thought that like I could not control my thoughts anymore, which I couldn't to some extent, right? They were controlling me. Um, but I thought I was going crazy. And I thought I was it was not okay what was going on with me, but it was also not okay to tell anybody about it, as we've talked about multiple times. Um so the resulting factor of that or the result of that is there's so many of us that do the exact same thing simultaneously, man, at the same exact time that I was struggling and thought I was alone. There were multiple other people, I guarantee it, next to me, you know, in class, even probably, who were doing the same exact thing and thought they were entirely alone again. So I had this breakthrough moment when this is similar to my brother's timeline. So this is just after I told my brother, where I kind of was like, screw it, I'm getting medically retired. Like, I'm just gonna start being open about it. And my neighborhood um was a bunch of like military dudes, you know how every military base is. My neighborhood had, but it wasn't it wasn't like 160th guys, so it was cool. It was like other, you know, guys in different units who did different jobs, infantry guys, UAV guys, you know, so it was kind of a cool like dynamic. But there were about eight of us one night hanging out by a fire pit, and I we were drinking, but I had just enough liquid courage that I was like, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this up and I'm gonna I'm gonna see what it you know what the barometer is on this, you know. Um, because we were pretty close and I I let the cat out of the bag and I said, hey guys, like I'm actually getting medically retired for this for depression, anxiety, PTSD, whatever you want to call it. They lumped it all together. I kid you not, man. There were eight people there. They were all CW2s or E7s and above. So it was like senior, more senior guys in the army. Every single one of them had a story that they told me. I'm not kidding you. Went around the circle. Every single one of them could relate, different jobs, different career paths, different ranks, completely different everything, units and everything. And every single one of them could relate. And I was like, holy shit. Like, this is not first of all, it's not just me. Like, this is a massive problem that we don't even know exists or we don't even talk about, you know. So you are absolutely not alone. Like, I would argue that this is more common than not common to go through something like this, you know, whether it's it might be a different extreme of the spectrum, which is good, right? You might not get to the point where you're suicidal and God bless you, and that's awesome. But like it's it's common and you are absolutely not alone. You might think you're alone, but you're not. Like it is it's a widespread problem, and it doesn't mean anything negative on the person or the individual. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Yeah, that's a great moral to the story is you're you're not alone. Yeah. 100%. No matter what struggle you're having, somebody else in the world. Yeah, there's a little variation in unique situations, but if you're dealing with the loss of a loved one, well, guess what? How many people have lost their dad? There's widows, there's widow widowers out there, there's parents, man, that have lost children. Like people have dealt with loss and you're not alone, or fear. If you're dealing with fear and you're feeling alone to like fear of telling people or sharing, you know, understand, you know, just find somebody you trust and share with them. Because just like Nick's saying, you know, you're probably not alone. More likely you're not, and you're definitely not alone with an experience or struggle in life because we all struggle, I don't care who you are.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Yeah. No, it's so so true, man. And it's one of the um one of the things that I want this book to accomplish is that, right, I want people to because my so my brother read it, and he hasn't really had he hasn't really dealt with depression or anything like that, which is amazing, right? Like he hasn't gone through it to the extent that I did. He's at a little bit, but nothing crazy. And even when he read it, he was like, dude, I could like even though I hadn't been at that pit, I could still relate to every single chapter in your book. Like there was something in it that I got out of it, you know, whether it was like perspective or just the journey of you know, living life with kids and a wife, you know what I mean? Like just this life journey that we're all on. So so yeah, man, you're like it's such a dangerous way of thinking, thinking you're alone. And it's it's easy to think that.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Yeah, don't be fooled. Don't let your ego in your mind fool you. You are not alone. And uh I love this break the silence, redefined strength.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Yeah, brother. You know, if you're alone break the silence. Exactly. It's all about that cultural shift. And one one last thing that I want to say is if somebody's out there struggling, as as hard as the decision is to speak up, because it was one of the hardest decisions that I ever made, I will stand by that probably the rest of my life. Um, it was also the most important decision I ever made. And it allowed me to be who I am today, right? Like, despite all of the reasons I didn't want to get help and all of the fears that I had surrounding it, everything worked out for good. You know, everything fell into place how it was intended to, whether you're religious or not, I am, so I do believe like God had a role in everything that happened to me and he's using me now because of this. But like all of those fears and all of those stigmas that kept me from getting help were they were lies. They were lies that the devil or who whatever you believe in was planting in my head and plants in a lot of our heads.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

No, that's that's powerful. Like it was the scariest thing you ever did, but it was the best thing you ever did. Right. And you know, when you have fear, fear is an opportunity to be courageous and be brave. That love that, dude. You know, that is. Yeah, you gotta watch one of my um episodes with uh Tony Blauer. We talk about fear, and you know, beer is false, expectations appearing real. Um, you can't do anything amazing or incredible or achieve without fear. There's fear of failure, feel of embarrassing yourself, fear of whatever. But when you break through that and you conquer that fear, there is no better feeling. Everything that's rewarding, like you're a testimony to it right now. You just said it on the show. You know, it was the best thing you ever did. It changed your life for the better. So if you're out there and you're at a moment of fear, understand this is an opportunity. Fear is an opportunity. You get to be courageous, you get to be brave, you get to be game-changing and change your life and change the lives of people around you too. It's an incredible thing. So don't let fear stop you. Do not do that. And again, Nick, if there's anything else you want to share or say before we go, I want to say thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your story. I'm proud of you, brother, because not everybody has the backbone to do it, and you had the strength to come forward, and that's an amazing thing. So close us out. Take us uh to anything you want to say.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:01

No, thanks. Thanks for having me, first of all. I love what you're doing as well. I think your platform is also gonna help so many people, man, and already is. Um, and then man, I just want to shameless plug my book again. It it it matters, and I am proud of it, and it will change lives. Um it it all it takes, the only thing holding that back is it getting in the right hands right now. So yeah, go buy my book, Stigma. It's on Amazon, anywhere you can buy a book, but it will it will make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yes, and then leave a review and definitely leave us a review, comment, like, and subscribe. Go in the description. You can find all the links to get the book, get my book. It's all out there. And thank you again for being here. Keep doing positive things, do us a positive and give us a like and a follow. And more than anything, don't ever forget own your power.