Ep. 13 - Manhood: Updating the Software

Okay, so here’s my take — and yes, I totally geeked out writing this: So, in this episode of Three for the Founders, these three guys from Phi Beta Sigma (it’s a fraternity, but not the wild “college movie” kind) start talking about what it actually means to “be a man” in 2025. And spoiler: it’s not just about being able to lift heavy stuff or never crying.

They talk about how old-school ideas of manhood can be kinda… broken? Like, they don’t leave space for feelings, therapy, or just saying “hey, I’m not okay.” And they explain how brotherhood means actually showing up for each other, not just fist-bumping and pretending you’re fine.

Honestly, it’s like they’re trying to upgrade masculinity so it works for real people instead of some cartoon version of a “tough guy.”

Action Items:

1. Think about what “being a man” actually means to you (even if you’re not a guy).
2. Talk to your friends about mental health without making it weird.
3. Ask your dad, uncle, or brother what they think about manhood — and actually listen.
4. Maybe… cry if you need to? No shame.

Questions to Think About:

• Who decided what “real men” are supposed to act like in the first place?
• Why is it easier for guys to talk about sports than their feelings?
• Can vulnerability be a kind of strength?
• What would happen if men stopped trying to “act tough” all the time?

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We've all grown up with you gotta be a man. My question is what does that mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

You can't act like a man!

SPEAKER_00 0:08

And my answer is I don't know that it means a whole lot. We're brothers.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

We're happy and we're singing and we're colored. Give me a high five. Alright, cut and print. Beautiful guys. Dino like that.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years. And now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Let's go. We have learned to record everything. You gotta go live, baby. Go live.

SPEAKER_06 0:57

Look at you on WPT. Woo! Look at that. Represent my people, my people. My people time. Damn. You got the H, you got the Harvard rocking in Stockton, just uh just to keep you safe from the from the authorities.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

Yeah, don't get me confused with the local.

SPEAKER_06 1:17

Wasn't there a school that Dr. Huxtable was always pimping on his show? Yes. See, he knew it right off the top of his head. That's a different word. Went to Hillman from where you come from. See, me and LeBron had to Google Hillman, and then we were like, wait, what was the spin-off show? And then we had to Google that. You just went pop, pop, you went to the club.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I knew Antonio was going to have it right at the top of the dome. I am the media. So he went to Harvard. What else did he do? Who are you, LeBron?

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Oh man, I am simply LeBron James, the son of Papa James. Papa James. Mathematician from UCLA, former math teacher, now math coach, training teachers how to teach math to black and brown students because all learning is political and cultural. Don't get it twisted. So I am obsessed with the mathematics of life, the mathematics of relationships, and recognizing patterns in our society. And as a futurist, someone who studies the future, I look at those trends to predict what's coming down the pike. And I'm so excited to be here with my two fraternity brothers to have this open and honest discussion about topics, how they relate to race, and our various perspectives on those topics. My man Antonio.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Reynaldo Antonio Macias. Captain T shirt.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Oh I like that one.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Reynaldo Antonio Macias, teacher, educator. I like to read, I like to think, I like to write, I like to speak. I feel like it's our responsibility to investigate what has come before in order to create a better what is to come after. Because all we have is this present. And so I like to be present with these gentlemen. I like to be present with you all, and uh I'm ready to get it started.

SPEAKER_06 3:04

Shalom, John. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Let's go.

SPEAKER_06 3:09

My name is John Augustine. I'm here in Los Angeles with two of my dear brothers and friends. I am a communications consultant and executive coach. I'm also a musician and a creator, and I am obsessed. I'm obsessed with communicating clearly because I believe most of what separates people is misunderstanding. I'm holding on to that. Out of my cold, dead hand will be this conviction that the majority of what separates us is misunderstanding. And I know that I have misunderstood so many things, and these two gentlemen, you two who are here with me, represent big, big, big evolutionary steps in my own understanding of the of racism in America, of identity, of what it means to be American, of citizenship in general, of brotherhood, sisterhood, and everything under those umbrellas. So I'm here because honestly, years ago, I put I built a spreadsheet of names of friends I thought were just so cool and intelligent. And I thought, if I could just record conversations with these people, I would love it. And you two, top of the list. I mean, we really there's a lot of reasons we do this, but I just like to kick it with you all. So that's one of the reasons we're here.

SPEAKER_05 4:16

Thanks. And before we begin, I want to give a shout out to our soul roars of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority Incorporated. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Can't forget our see you, my sisters. Under the dove. For sure, for sure. Well, John, why are we called Three for the Founders?

SPEAKER_06 4:30

We are called Three for the Founders for uh at least three reasons. Reason number one, there are three of us, and three is the magic number, not only according to math, but also according to De La Soul and others. Look it up. We are members of the most honorable Five Beta Sigma Fraternity, Incorporated, Incorporated, which has three founders: A. Langston Taylor, Charles I. Brown, and Leonard F. Morris. Test me on that. So, three founders of this podcast, the three of us, three founders of our fraternity, but also we talk about the founders of the United States, the ideals that they allegedly laid out, and how they have fallen by the wayside, how we have failed to or succeeded in following the foundational principles of this country that the three of us love so much, we reserve the right to criticize her and make her better. I just drank all my water. I realized I'm gonna have to do a refill, but I need to confess something first. So because a different world came up, uh, who is the besides Lisa Bonet? Marissa Till. Well, uh thank you. That's not where I was going with it, but I appreciate you bringing her up too. I'm born there. Is that your girl? My biological clock is ticking like this. Meanwhile, my niece, the daughter of my sister's getting married. Kadim Hardison. No, not Kadim, the other one, the the the shorter one. Ron, the little the little light-skinned dude. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Ron, his like his best friend?

SPEAKER_06 5:54

I think so, yeah. Yeah. I'll look it up just to confirm. But so then or other. There's a UCLA party at some frat house. Okay. And I think it's before I knew you all. I think it was that first quarter or so, or maybe the second quarter. My friend Sean, that I went to high school with, we share a birthday, we did theater together. His mom, his name's Sean Peters, his mom's name Margie Peters. She was a writer, and she wrote for a different world. And nice. This party was that dude, was that actor. And you know how that would happen at Westwood sometimes? Like you had some party, yeah. There'd be some actors and some like I had the whole cast saved by the bell.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

The whole cast was saved by the bell because Tiffany Amber Thiessen can get it and almost did. Here we go. Antonio was there that night, Mark. They were all he was pissed. He dragged her out by the arm. He was not like, she's killing him, brother. What do you want from me? Yeah. Okay. So he was at the party.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

So this dude's at the party, and I just I had a just enough to drink where I'm starting to talk to him, and I'm like, oh, I love your show. As a matter of fact, and I just lied to him. I was like, my mom writes for that show. He's like, what? I'm like, Margie Kidding's like, Margie's your mom. Like, yeah, Marjorie's my mom. I told so many lies my freshman year, man. Like, did I tell you guys I was part black? Is that why I got in the I forget.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Funny enough, no, you didn't. When I heard you sing, I'm like, he creole. Put them all on. Okay. Afternoon, my Octoroon. So that book that I was trying to get for y'all, uh, The Feast of All Saints about the Genstickal, the actual Octoroon, mulatto, half black, half-white, grown up French, educated in the backhouse, but never claimed by their white enslaving fathers. Wow. Um, by Anne Rice is out of print everywhere. But it is it is a fascinating look at this group of people who are rich but not claimed, have privileges but not social status. It's it's so fascinating. Anne Rice is is a tremendous talent. You know, most people don't interview with the vampire, but but she went deep on that one.

SPEAKER_06 8:07

Wow. I mean, you're it's not just media guy, literature. You're arts, art and literature. That's you, man. I can't go back to the women I can still wear white pants.

SPEAKER_05 8:17

That's that should be against the law.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

You know, I had to I had to kill that when you we all familiar with the East Coast, but yes, I was in Rhode Island and somebody told me that, and I was like, why? They said, because that's you know, culturally. I said, not my culture, mine are a tropical people. Thank you. 247. And then they were, you know, it's the same people who say you can't wear a hat indoors or you can't wear a baseball cap backwards.

SPEAKER_06 8:46

Yeah. Those are the same people to say we we we don't want affordable housing in Santa Monica. We don't want those 1.25 million dollar units because it's Mayberry right now, and we want to keep it Mayberry. Keep it Mayberry.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Wow. Opie.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Obi Cunningham. Obi Cunningham.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

That was my dude growing up, man. But she was with a straight face, that white woman was saying, we don't want low-cost housing. 1.5 million.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

I said, what you doing? I loved, I love the councilman. He was like, well, do you know where single family zoning comes from? It's when they said you couldn't say Negro anymore. We couldn't say racial zoning. And so they said single family zoning, and you had to buy a 5,000-foot lot. And so we're gonna build a regular size house on a giant lot, but now we could build condos. Thank you. Yep. Yo, that kid, that was crazy.

SPEAKER_06 9:49

He he schooled her, but you know, I I have to admit that I think myself, even a couple years ago, would not have heard those racial overtones, those overt racism in her. I I would have I would have identified with her idea of I don't want a bunch more people in this neighborhood. I don't want, I I love the way the neighborhood is right now, and I just want where that lot is, there should just be one house. There shouldn't be four different units bringing in parking issues, bringing in crowding issues. Like that's where my head would have been, and I would not have interpreted it the same way without the work that I've done introspectively, thanks to you all. I I mean that. I hate even admitting this, but I think I could have watched that a couple years ago and be like, what's the what's the problem? Yeah, but then if I would have seen the guy's response, like, do you realize that with the history and everything, it would have schooled me.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

There's a piece of it where you can want to have a neighborhood where you know your neighbors go next door. You can have a concern for parking because we live in California and everybody drives. Like, those are real things. When you say that we don't want low-cost housing, I used to live in an apartment when I lived in New York and it had cockroaches in it. Your equation of poverty with low-cost housing that's$1.5 million means that you are way out. I don't think that that woman, here we go, with detached, right? Detach. I don't think she was being hard R front porch. Yes, but I do think that all of the language around what she was talking about, like her invoking Mayberry. Yes, I go back and count the number of black, Latino, Asian characters on the Andy Griffith show.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

I gotta go through all the seasons, try to find one. In the finale. And how sure they had one.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah. And he was like somebody's friend who came into town. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 11:46

He was like, he was like, what's his name on Charlie Brown? Franklin. This is Franklin on Charlie Brown.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

And go back to Charlie Brown as much as I love Charles Schultz and look at the Thanksgiving episode when Franklin is sitting on one side of the table and everybody else is sitting all around the table. I was gonna say he's like sticks on happy days.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Yes, I remember sticks, yeah. Oh my gosh. And that was it.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Have you seen the South Park episode on sticks?

SPEAKER_06 12:16

South Park episode of a bass player or the bass player? Oh no. Like, we know we know you play the bass. Because he's black, they're like, you play the bass. He's like, I don't play the bass. They go, here, put you're black, you play the bass. And he picks it up and he's like, and he goes, Shit.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Damn.

SPEAKER_06 12:34

I play the bass.

unknown 12:36

No.

SPEAKER_06 12:37

Yeah, but back to this lady, she really it's there's the total racial element that we just talked about, and then there's the the out-of-touchness of it all, where she's like, if you can't afford to live in Santa Monica, well then you can't afford then live somewhere else. When then she talks about living in Brooklyn or whatever, and then she goes on to say she bought this house in the 90s for$365,000. It's like, oh you mean you can't afford to live in Santa Monica right now? Like you can right now because of your yourself in the late 90s, but you can't yeah, that was that whole thing was just so wildly out of touch.

SPEAKER_05 13:10

Um, I have a concept that came up with, and we can we can go into one of the other episodes, but it's the new version of racism, it's called pricism. Oh so price is say more. Pricism is when white people say I can't discriminate based on race, so we elevate the price to a point where black and brown people can't afford it. And then, like, sure, you can move into my neighborhood, but the houses start at two million dollars. Wow, how did it end up all white? I don't know. I guess they don't have two million dollars. I can get a lot of money. I'm tired of I'm tired of shopping at Ralph's with all these people of color. Let's create arawan.

SPEAKER_06 13:58

That's the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 13:59

The baby step towards baby towards arowan. So price is the new thing. They just price you out, yeah. Just like in the NBA. They didn't want any black owners, they only want black players. So when the Clippers had to sell the team, because the owner was obviously. Thank you. Um Oprah, every black person with$20 put it together and they were gonna buy the Clippers. Well, that's not true. Steve Balmer came in and said, excuse me, I'll buy that for$2 billion cash by myself. Pricing. He said, We're gonna keep this, we're gonna roll this Jew and keep it Jew as ownership. Blacks play, Jews own. So they priced it so far out that they said nobody black or brown will ever come and drive by a team. It's called pricism.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

But I know that you've had people in your ear at this point about the podcast and about the conversations. Yeah. Uh I'm gonna claim her, but uh, she's a friend of John's friend of the pod, Julie Clark. Obviously, uh Daniela and Sabah uh giving us good feedback. But also shout out to my brother-in-law, Terry Brown, who's every cast loyally religiously. I see you tea. The homie invaluable in a shipwreck uh is out there. She knows what that means. Um, you know, she her her goal in life is to be uh, oh, I'm gonna mess it up. Acceptable at a dance and invaluable in a shipwreck. Oh, that's heavy. Yeah. No, she's she's she's a she's a deep thinker. I was talking to her yesterday and she uh um she was giving me some feedback on the pod, just talking about what she uh what she was getting out of what she thought. Um the brother from another mother, Anthony Thomas, uh down in San Diego. He um he hit me up after the last episode. He was like, really? Neo-whites? Is that what we're doing now?

SPEAKER_06 15:59

Is that what we're doing now? Um I think we're pro-whites at this point, but yeah. Exactly. On every level.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Um and so it just occurred to me that there are a lot of people out there listening and pulling for us. There are a lot of people out there who are listening and getting something out of our conversation. So I just want to appreciate um them. I want to appreciate you, uh, the audience, that feedback. Yeah. There are lots of ways for you to join this conversation. You can hit us up on Instagram, TikTok. Um I think we've got a YouTube channel, and uh no doubt. If you want to read Antonio's t-shirts, it's really critical to watch us on YouTube. To watch us on YouTube. Yes. Today's t-shirt, racism is a hell of a drug.

SPEAKER_06 16:47

Side effects may include voting against your own interests, thinking DEI is the problem, lying to yourself, selective memory, fear of books, history, and facts. And facts.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Wow. Right. You know, I need that in four colors, please. God ain't petty, but I am, is uh is where this t-shirt came from. Yes. And so um that needs to be our first sponsor right there. Well, it's our second mahogany mommies has come up with the uh drink coffee, fight racism, empower women t-shirt that I wore several several shows ago. It just occurred to me that we should take this opportunity to let people know we appreciate you listening. There's a way you can send us a text if you listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. There's a quick link. Um and let us know what you're thinking. Let us know how you want to participate in the conversation because we want to invite you in to make this whole world a better place. No doubt.

SPEAKER_06 17:44

One of the greatest things that one of the greatest pieces of feedback or or messages we received was someone, and I'm I apologize, I think it was a female who said that your podcast, this podcast, has helped me have conversations with my family. And that means a lot hearing that. So who you know who you were when you said it, that means a lot. And I can understand that because sometimes we just that's that's the purpose of art, that's the purpose of participating in conversations like this, is sometimes it requires somebody else's perspective and somebody else putting it in a way that maybe you hadn't thought. And if you watched or listened to us over and over again, we we quote a lot of movies. Antonio, actually, we all do, we quote a lot of books because it's usually something that you already feel or know or want to say, but you don't know necessarily how to say it in that moment. And I know that art has served all of us in that way, and so that's definitely one of the things we want to continue to do. So we called an audible.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

We were like, hey, we did call an audible. We didn't we had a topic, we didn't have a topic. I told you I was listening to Billy Joel's uh Cold Spring Harbor album, uh, because I just watched his documentary. I got it. And he uh he was out there, you know. I mean is out there at the beginning. But he's still the same dude. Um, and he's a he's a guy like I've never been. I've always been reflective. Uh and that sounds silly for me to say about him because if you listen to his music or you listen to his art, um he's obviously reflective. But I've been reflective in my personal life, and that doesn't feel like his story, or at least the way they told his story in this, because as I know and as you know, editing is everything. Um and so my question coming to you all was today, what does it mean to be a man? Oof. Oof. I was not uh I was Damn, we're going there, and there are extrapolations of it as you ponder your initial thought, and I'll be LeBron today. We can cut this part because it's not gonna go on. And then then I'll be right back. Every time we're not getting it, every time you've said that, I've been like, I'm gonna leave that part in too. Exactly. You both experienced domestic evolution or two, yeah, yes, and so we are all children of the late 60s, early 70s, and we've all been given messages of manhood from our parents, from society at large, but you know, this is 54 for me. What does it mean to be a man is a big question. And so I'll lay that out there. Yeah, I'm not sure that I have an answer, but like you have people fighting for different things in the world today, right? Like we have people uh in Israel thinking that being a man means picking up a rifle and shooting somebody. We have people in the United States thinking that picking up a rifle and shooting somebody is a display of manhood. We have people who think lying is a display of manhood. We have people who think telling the truth always is a display of manhood. And we're all raising men. Yeah. We've all been raised by men, we've all participated in this cycle, but what does it mean to be a man?

SPEAKER_06 21:11

There's so many thoughts that that just race through my head because I have I have evolved in this. There was a time where I embraced toxic masculinity. There's a time going off to college where I I collected father figures, and I stole that theme. I stole that phrase from Pete Holmes, who is one of my favorite. I'm gonna call him a philosopher. He's a comedian, but some of his work got me through some of the hardest times of me trying to evolve away from a toxic masculine way of of being. And much of that was informed by a desire to be a man that I didn't think I was, and seeing toxic masculinity is, and I know you didn't ask about toxic masculinity, but when I think about being a man and talk about picking up a rifle, that's that's very easy to go to that one dimensional way of of being. And you know, there When I saw it in other men as a young man, as a college student who embodied a certain strength that was outward, that was that was obvious. I wanted it. I want I craved that. There was part of my religion that was tied up to it in it for a while. Wanted to be a man of God, wanting to be a patriarchal person who provides for his family and protects. I think the safest and most healthy way I can describe it is showing up. A man shows up. And that allows for every type of the spectrum of masculine and feminine. Because one of the biggest, frankly, one of the hardest things I had when I was embracing more of a toxic masculinity, I really struggled with the religious purview of homosexuality. I could never write those things in my head, even though I belonged to a group that would have said homosexuality is wrong. And I I had many people when I was in college, young men who didn't want to be gay anymore and who wanted help not being gay. And we worked on being manly. I mean, I it's it's hard to even think about how how singularly and how singularly obsessed with just pure behavior I was with these gentlemen. And they were too, because they were feeling the society, societal and religious pressure to be more manly. And when I think about back how now about how that was cutting off one of the biggest sources of strength they had, which was what would be called feminine energy, caretaking and empathy and nurturing. And I'm not one to say that that is feminine or masculine, but we all know people who, you know, they're I see that as this continuum. And so a man in any form, what what no matter what the sexual orientation is, no matter if they're strong physically or they're more thoughtful and internal and introspective, if they love being outdoors or they'd rather be indoors, no matter what they are, where they're on the spectrum, I think being a man means showing up with whatever your strengths are. You show up, you say you're gonna do it, you do it. You're there for your friends, you're there for your family. That's that's I think a healthy version of it.

SPEAKER_05 24:08

Man, that is good, John. That is good. I mean, you you touched on so many points that I was thinking about. For me, um, being a man has been an evolution. It has changed so many times from the way I saw my dad as a man and what he had to do and had to endure, and then the things he put into me, which were I would say pretty masculine, and today you would probably call it toxic. It wasn't toxic then. And so there were so many almost like contradictions, like you had to be strong, but you have to be in touch with your feelings, like you have to show up, you know. So then you gotta be hard, you know. We don't love them hoes, but you gotta be respectful. You open the door for a lady. So I mean, there's so many parts that are contradictory and and complex. My word again, Antonio. But but for me, I mean being a man, I think, in each each decade, from my my 20s to my 30s to my 40s to my 50s, that definition has changed and shifted. You know, it's about you know, first masculinity because we have to, it's about our egos. We have to establish an ego. So whether that is dating a lot of women or you know, being popular in the frat or being popular in school or singing, I have to stand out because I have to establish my ego. That's manhood. Then 30s, okay, now I have to be responsible. I need to be a husband, I need to be a father. You know what I mean? Then at what age is it that, like, okay, manhood is I have to be at peace with myself. That I can't let society dictate to me how I need to be, and that if I'm bold enough to be who I am, whatever that is, that that's being a man. So being a punk is conforming, but being true to self to me is a is a sign of manhood. So it kind of changes with each decade for me.

SPEAKER_06 26:13

Yeah. Antonio, I want to hear you, but I also want to ask LeBron about something you just said because you you said, you know, the the version of masculinity or being a man, the version of being a man from your dad, 60s, 70s, wasn't toxic then, but it's toxic now. Do you mean that it wasn't considered toxic then? Or back then, because that was the norm, by definition it wasn't really toxic. What what do you think? I think that's a good thing. It served a function.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Yeah, it served a function because you have to create a hard enough shell to deal with life in society. And so there wasn't as many outlets, there wasn't as much flexibility and understanding that we have today. So the hardness you had to be back then in today's context would be considered toxic. Just like I have a neighbor who's an older white guy, you know, he goes, Oh, that color guy lives next door. And they're like, No, no, you can't you can't say that. But he wasn't being racist. It's just in the time that he grew up, we were called color, and now he just really hasn't shifted with the times. Right. So I I understand it, you know, and and how we feel about different aspects, like, you know, like now we're dealing with issues like gender and all these things that are new to us that didn't that weren't around. Yeah. People will say we're hard asses or we're not as flexible or you're insensitive. It's a shift we have to make because we didn't grow up in that time. Yeah. And so we have to change with the times. And so manhood, I think, changes with the times, and those who can keep up do better. And I think some who get stuck then get stuck with the with the label.

SPEAKER_06 27:52

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I find that fascinating. I really do. Antonio?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

You struck me, LeBron. My grandfather until the day he died, George Webb, God bless you, identified as colored. And he died in the early aughts, so about 20 years ago. I'm wondering whether be a man is just a phrase that needs to be retired. Because there's nothing that either one of you said in that conversation that doesn't apply to grown-ups. Right. Regardless of gender, regardless of gender. As opposed to be a man. And I find it challenging. I am a middle school dude. That's though that's the group of kids that I I vibe with, that I know that I can help, that I can lead, I can teach, I can do. And middle school boys are a special group. Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_06 28:56

Yeah, when are you gonna have bring your friends, bring your frat brothers to work day, and me and LeBron can come? You y'all can come. I want to just I want to bear witness to and just prop you up, too.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

You can come watch me and Raheem and the rest of the crew uh deal with deal with these children.

SPEAKER_06 29:14

I want to see it.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

But that being said, there is a way that you interact with young people that isn't determined by their gender assigned at birth or the gender that they are, you know, speak starting to identify with, but is very much the energy they bring into the room every day. And I was really thinking about this. Uh, the homie Rob Evans, who's also an educator, uh has a podcast and it's called Questions with Rob Evans. And he was talking about values, right? And his question for this this episode was how do you stand up for your values when the world is telling you they're wrong? That's heavy. And so I was thinking about that, and one of the things he said was, What is the currency of the environment that you exist in? And I had never thought about care or empathy as a currency. And yet, very much, right, part of why we do what we do is care for each other, that we we we want to spend this time together. Right. Part of what we do is care for the larger society, whether we're railing against the pimple popping or uh, you know, various other things. It's how can we make this a better place? Care is a currency, and yet that's not something that you would say is manly, right? We might give it language about protection, right? We might give it language about uh preserving. Um, we might say that, you know, we need violence to protect. Care is not the currency that we discuss. And so I've really been focused on, you know, what does it mean to be a man? I know that I am cisgendered male and I'm heterosexual. And yet none of those things define manhood. Right. And so I was really I I was I was pondering that, you know. I am proud of both my children, you know, one is cisgendered male and one is non-binary, and yet they're both growing up to be responsible people, yeah. They both very much engage with care as a currency, which I know is part of our domestic evolution here, and so I don't have an answer. I don't know what it means to be a man, right? Because I look at people who excuse Donald Trump's sexual proclivities, his disregard for marital fidelity, his disregard for his sexual partners, his disregard for the truth, and yet there are a lot of people who would say he's manly. That that photo of him standing up saying, fight, fight, fight, right?

SPEAKER_05 32:23

Right. With the ketchup on his ear. I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

When he allegedly got shot. I saw somebody, I saw somebody post a picture of Evander Holyfield. Oh, thank you. Whose ear got bit by Mike Tyson in that fight years ago.

SPEAKER_05 32:40

Right. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

And then they posted it next to a picture of Donald Trump who whose ear got nicked by a bullet months ago. Evander Holyfield still got a whole chip taken out of his ear. Like that doesn't heal.

SPEAKER_05 32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Donald Trump ain't even got a score.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Right. You know what though?

SPEAKER_00 33:03

No, no, I was just gonna I guess my finish was I don't I know what it means to be an adult. Yep, yeah, but I don't know what it means to be a man. Or is that just a sentence that needs to be retired?

SPEAKER_05 33:19

I think it maybe it sh it could be retired. I don't think it will be soon, but I think it's on its way to being retired. But I'm curious, how do each of you show up or live in a world as a man in your skin? And then how how have you raised your sons to be men in this world in their skin?

SPEAKER_06 33:45

Part part of evolving as a man in my current state is growing much more comfortable with just who I am. This is just who I am, and that's you know, that's just to your point, I tell you, that's just growing up too. Like, um, you know, you get to a point where you're a grown-ass person, man or woman, you're like, this is me. And I've wrestled with the reality of I am sensitive. And I I shared this in the story, like, you know, I don't I don't want to be sensitive, man. I want to be the guy, I want to be the guy you call when there's a fight. I want to be the one who's who shows up and kicks a mask. I want to be Tony from West Side Story, but without the dancing and without the without the singing. And then when I look at myself a little bit more deliberately, I'm like, I'm I am Tony from West Side Story, man. I have a with the dancing with the dancing and the singing. I have like I have a little bit of street grad. Like someone's like, oh yeah, he helped us in that one fight, but really I'm in love with Maria and I want to sing about it. And LeBron, you asked about how do we go through the world as men and then raise our sons. I hope what's happening is that there's actual evolution happening. And I mean, I don't just mean theoretical evolution, I mean actual change in our genetic makeup suiting our times. And I I sometimes am amazed that war still exists. I truly am. I'm like, wait a minute. We have a problem with somebody, and our problem is, hey, let's go kill more of them than they kill of us. Like that's the best we can do. That's what we got. That's the epitome of outdated manhood, where there's just let's just outphysical them, outphys them, outstrong them until they die and surrender. It just seems so antiquated to me that it even exists. And you know, one of the reasons we talk about Papa James LeBron being hard, like it was Vietnam vet, two tours. That's gonna you don't get through that without being that type of man. I mean, that's why so many people came back, especially soldiers of color, came back to America and didn't get embraced the way they needed to. Where I'm going with all this is to say that I I would have, when I was raising my sons, they were younger, I was a little bit more into the strength aspect of being a man, and way less of in the sensitivity of being a man or just being a grown-up. And I have evolved, and I bet if you ask them that I I actually, based on there were some writings, John Eldridge wrote a book called Wild at Heart, is very much in the Christian world. But the fundamental concept was that boys and girls are different, and boys need to know that they have what it takes to make it in the world. They need to know they have courage, they need to believe they have physical strength, they need to, at their heart, know that they're gonna come through in a pinch. And so I raised my boys in very specific ways, years-long ways, with those aims in mind, and frankly devalued some of the more sensitivity aspects in them. And if I could do it over, I would still point out the areas for their own well-being. Like, yes, you are strong. Yes, you do know what it's like to have courage. Yes, you can stand up to a bully for the sake of someone who's being bullied. Also, you should be very tuned into how your sister feels about this, or you should know these things. And I think part the proof that we're evolving a little bit is let me ask you all this. Who do you think right now, among women, is considered like one of the sexiest men alive? Like the manliest men alive, besides the two of you, obviously. Oh, okay. I mean, if people magazine finds out about our podcast, clearly you all you two are gonna be in the top five.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

No, clearly, they're just gonna have three for the founders, sexiest men alive.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

And I'll I'll give you a hint. Antonio, you are married to someone who is from Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 37:19

Oh, he is Pedro Pascal. Thank you. What is it about Pedro Pascal and manhood? You talked about everything.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Everything go he he shoots the people that need to be shot, he hugs the people that need to be hugged, he says out loud, my sister is my sister, and all of you people, if that's a problem for you, he is no. I think he's the sexiest man alive. Let's be real.

SPEAKER_06 37:43

Let's be real. Okay, so I'm gonna tie this back to something. So, what do y'all think about Prince as a man?

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Jealous. What did we think of him when he first been jealous? I've never been jealous of a short man.

SPEAKER_05 37:57

I've never been jealous of an androgynous man. Like, I don't know if you're male or female, but you take in all the fine women.

unknown 38:04

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

And you wear the blouse.

SPEAKER_06 38:06

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

And so blouse and heels, chaps, and high heels.

SPEAKER_06 38:10

And Pedro Pascal also showed up in some some like womanly type clothing for a shoe. Where I'm going with this is this is the funny thing about all this is You're gonna love it, LeBron. We are complex, man, because I'm getting into attraction now. I'm getting into like sexual attraction between the genders. And that's when you talk about it. Does that have anything to do with manhood? No, it doesn't, it does not. Maybe it does. So here's where I'm going with it. Prince's Prince's sound engineer was a woman, and it was a total mistake. She was an intern, she wasn't supposed to be his engineer. Engineer didn't show up. She's like, I can do this, I think. And he's like, All right. And she and then it turned out Prince loved to work with women. He just loved it. He just felt like they were better to work with. There wasn't as much ego. There's just, you know, there's a more sensitivity and all that kind of stuff. She ended up because she got her doctorate, I think, in psychiatry or psychology. And she wanted to study why do women love men who sing. And I'm going somewhere. Of course, she got an unfair advantage in mother father.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

She read this. This mother father set us up, Antonio.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

I'm like, hey, did you see that episode of New Girl Where Prince? John's like, so somebody wrote a dissertation about why women love me.

SPEAKER_06 39:19

I'm making a point. Self-serving, it is a point. When a man sings, when Prince sings, when he embodies the two characteristics that those attracted to men really love strength, confidence, and vulnerability at the same time. When you sing, you're like, look at me. Oh, boom, I can hit this note. Boom. Also, here, look, there's a little piece of my chest. I'm sensitive. Look, I'm you know what I'm saying? And I think Pedro Pascal, he he embodies that. And what I'm I'm seeing, make like Prince is way ahead of his time. He was like the he's gonna show us a new way into this androgynous. Whoa, you're what are male, female? Pedro Pascal's like, I think he's an embodiment of what men should become. So I don't know if I derailed our conversation with this, but I when you say what it means to be a man, I can't help but dive into masculinity and what it's been and what it should be. Because let's face it, and this is why I called it evolution. There was a time in human history not too very long ago where surviving as a species means you need someone to protect you physically from the things that are gonna come and eat us.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

But none of the three of us were fighting the tiger.

SPEAKER_06 40:31

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I might have handed you the weapons, but but I might have showed you the angle you need to throw that spear.

SPEAKER_06 40:40

With the with my terrible eyesight, by the time I was 13, I would have been the guy in the cave trying to find his way out. Like, hold on. I'd be going inwards, go follow me. I know the escape route, and I would have sang a song about it to memorize the way.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

This is why for me, this conversation isn't about uh sexual orientation. And so I come back to that original question of manhood separate from orientation. Right. Yep. Wondering if it's gender identity, because there have been societies all the way throughout history who have understood that there are people who don't fit into a gender identity. Some Native American nations called it two spirit. We've all grown up with you gotta be a man. My question is, what does that mean? Yeah and my answer is I don't know that it means a whole lot. I know that I have to be an adult. And so there are things that I think in us being told, you know, you need to be a man about it, right? And and LeBron, you asked about how did we raise our children. I hugged and kissed my son the same way I hugged and kissed my child.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

I think that's beautiful. Yep, same here.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I I have never said, you know, don't cry. And so I don't know. Like I I I'm constantly reevaluating. I want them to grow up and be responsible. I want care to be the currency that they spend and they receive. I want them to be um righteous for those things that they know to be true. But I don't care who they love. I really don't care who they sleep with. And I want them to be good people, but I don't need them to be I don't need him to be a man.

SPEAKER_06 42:41

Yeah. I'm starting to see what you're saying now, Antonio. I apologize because I think I was in my own head about my own definition, but the idea that all those incredible characteristics that you just described that you want your children to embody have nothing to do with being a man or being a woman and everything to do with being a mature, enlightened, thoughtful individual. So being non-binary, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

It's it's all about being a grown-up. Maybe that's you know, be let's be grown.

SPEAKER_05 43:07

Yeah, I think to be grown, but there are distinctions between a man being a man and being a woman, and then we all fall under grown-ups.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

But but that's so that's what I mean, right? So then I don't know what those things are. What are those things? Like that's what I'm that's I I'm sort of challenging all of us to say I know that there are differences in how young people develop. Right. Right, and a lot of those differences have to do with societal norms, right? We can go to pedagogical observations, right? I always talk about wait time. Yes. Especially in middle school. If I ask a question, boys will shoot their hand up. Girls will sit and think about the question. And if I always call on the person whose hand is up first, I'm always calling on the boys. Yep. But boys will shoot their hand up and then say, okay, let me think about it.

SPEAKER_06 44:11

Because in that moment, it's the ego thing. It's the, you know, part of my identity is being fearless and being a leader in this moment and showing that I'm whatever. Girls will think about it and then raise their hand.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

But if what they see is you're always calling on the boy, you're always calling on the person whose hand is up first, then they stop raising their hands at all.

SPEAKER_06 44:33

At all, yeah. There has to be something in the genetic makeup that is predisposing people born with female biology to grow human beings inside of them. And what I mean is like when you're describing this, Antonio, when you're describing a woman's intuition, you think about how many times I think, you know, my kid's mom, there are moments where she followed her intuition on certain medical things or physical things where I'm like, I'm glad you listened. You may have saved our kids' life literally because you didn't take no for an answer or you didn't believe the first doctor or whatever. And sometimes I think we underappreciate how the fact that this person, this mother, grew a human being. There was no human being, and then she grew a human being and gave birth to a human being. What does that do to a body and to a psyche and to an understanding, a connection to the survival? Just because that kid is outside of their body doesn't mean they don't still feel the same thing they felt when it was inside of them. We have no idea what that feels like. And to your point, LeBron, the difference. It's like, okay, these are middle school girls who have not had a baby, yet something in their makeup is already tuning them to be more intuitive, to be more thoughtful, to pay a little bit more attention to what's happening inside of them. And I can't help but wonder, like, is this is this a reality in all species that give where the female gives birth on on planet Earth? I don't know. I might be taking it too far there.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

But it's I think that I but I think that there's a piece where like we're very comfortable watching Animal Planet and saying, here are the gender roles. Yeah. Like the males of the species do this, the females of the species do that. We don't assign them um titles, like they're not men and women, right? And we don't actually know, we know biologically what the function is, and we can observe socially how they participate in that, right? So we go to the Lion King, and lions don't do anything. But if you saw Mufasa the Lion King, which was the sequel, right? Part of the reason that uh Mufasa was such a great king is that he was raised with the lionesses. And so he developed their skills and he learned their empathy and he learned how to be in a community. So when he took his rightful rule role as king, he was a much more empathetic and wholesale ruler. Going back to that point, there are very definite ways that children show up. And we have observed pedagogically the whole hand raising thing. But I have kids who come and ask me, boys and girls, how come you wait? And I said it's called wait time. I'm giving everybody, and when I explain it, then they start watching what happens, and sometimes I'll call on the person who raised their hand first because they might actually know. But most when it's a boy and when they answer immediately, either they're making shit up, which I would say is a very middle school boy characteristic, yeah, or they wanted to get called on and then they're gonna go find the answer. And the girls, almost uniformly, not all of them, but the girls for the most part will wait to figure out the answer, whether it's because they want to get it right or because they're trying to participate in a way that's socially acceptable, like I'm gonna get a right answer to this. They'll wait. But if what they've learned and what they observe, and and kids are the the quickest observers, they're like, Oh, you got new shoes. Because they see what I wear every day. But they will observe if you don't listen. They'll tell you who your favorite student is in the class. Yeah, even if you don't even. They'll let you know right. They'll let you know which teachers don't actually like each other.

SPEAKER_06 48:39

Their brains seem to appreciate the complexity of networks, the complexity of social networks more. More than hierarchical structure the way it works, it's more like web-based or the more. That's all it's about.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

They don't care what I they don't care what I'm saying in the front of the classroom. Nope. Or the back of the classroom. What do they care about? It's about the relationship. It's about the relationships. Where they are in the relationships, and there's a hierarchy in where they are in the hierarchy.

SPEAKER_06 49:09

I have a question that maybe helps us define what what manhood is or what being a man is by saying, what is it not? And I'm curious, LeBron, there there has been a wave of, at least socially, what I'm noticing, more black men embracing the idea of therapy, the idea of mental health. I see more prominent black male figures talking about it. And oftentimes when they talk about it, they say we weren't raised as black men in America to really be connected to the side of ourselves. It talks about our feelings, it talks about our weaknesses, it talks about our trauma. Can you speak on that? Because it I think that's even defining manhood now. About maybe you were told that's not manhood, that's not manhood, especially as an African-American male in the United States growing up when we did. What do you think? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_05 50:01

That's a tough one. I mean, I'm glad we evolved to the place where all men, including black men, can talk about mental health. Talking about mental health and getting therapy is a luxury that was not available when I was growing up. So if I said that, you know, things are hard, things are tough, you know, I'm really struggling, he goes, nigga, are you picking cotton? I'm like, no. He said, well then shut up and get back to work. He said, what you crying about? He said, dude, they had it hard. You are a sissy. Get your ass up and keep it pushing. And that was how I was raised. Like, you don't have the luxury and the time or the income to say, today, you know, I'm just having a tough day, or wow, I'm really feeling down. That was a luxury. And so I'm glad that now black men are at a place where they have the luxury to actually say, I have mental health issues, and I can go get therapy. Because that's a luxury.

SPEAKER_06 51:05

But LeBron, would you ever have said those things to your boys? Did you did you ever say anything close to that to your boys? Yes. I'm like, dog.

SPEAKER_05 51:12

You kidding me? I'm probably James' son. Like, I was hard. I'm like, shut up and get in there and go read the book. So you took it. If you are, I told my boys, if you're feeling down and things are tough, it's because you ain't busy enough. So go do something. If you start doing something, I promise you you will feel better. Go do anything. Do something. But if you're sitting around doing nothing, I promise you you're gonna get depressed, even if you weren't.

SPEAKER_06 51:40

But but even that is an evolution, LeBron. It's not what you didn't do was, oh, you think you have it bad? You could be in Alabama in 1932. Like you didn't do that. You actually know there was thought in there. There was actually what you're saying is I I guarantee a lot of the therapy community would say, absolutely, having a sense of purpose and having a daily routine and discipline of accomplishing things, that's where self-esteem comes from. That's where self-worth comes from. And so what you did was a step forward, but you still maintain some of that Papa James hard ass.

SPEAKER_05 52:12

Because I have to, because as a black man, if if I'm white, of course I can do therapy. I can break down, I could take a gap year, I can go uh backpacking Europe, and I'm fine. That don't work for black people. So we gotta toughen up. So even if we get there, but we still gotta be tougher and realize you're still gonna have to face obstacles. The wind is in your face. Period. Now, if you want to cry about it, fine, but get up and then keep going. If you want to break down, cool, break down for 10 minutes and get your ass up and keep going, because the wind is always gonna be on your face. I don't have the luxury, I'm not white. I can't break down and fall apart.

SPEAKER_06 52:48

If you had girls, you think you would have been you would have handled it the same way?

SPEAKER_05 52:53

No, I wouldn't be as tough on if I had a daughter, I wouldn't be as tough and hard nose on her as I am my boys, because they have to be men in this society, which means it's a much tougher road to bear. But it's tougher to be a black woman than it is to be a white man for sure. So black women have it tough, but they only have one foot on their neck. We got two.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

I'm gonna say master wasn't I'm gonna say master wasn't coming in your quarters. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 53:34

I think LeBron.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

I'm gonna leave it there. I don't I I don't know if it's one foot or two foot. Hey. Um I think that that there are different right, this this idea of manhood, what does it mean to be a man? Stretches. Yes, right? And so there are there are all kinds of fallacies about the black family and and and Latino families, you know, men leaving to go find work, never coming home. If I, you know, I'll spill tea. My biological grandfather had five families, each with four kids, which means he left at least four times. There there is a piece where women have borne the brunt of men's ego all the way through. This wasn't getting into a present Olympic, nothing. Who's got a worse men or women? Well got a bad. It was just what was what sat with me today. Good. I do know that that Rob's questions were part of it. You know, I know that um as we tell people that they have to stand up and and fight against oppression, um, that they have to stand up and they have to care for others, right? I I went to a Jesuit high school and and the motto was be a man for others. Um boy school. I would hope that in all-boys school, right? Which was formed for a different reason than an all-girls school.

unknown 55:01

Right?

SPEAKER_00 55:02

All boys school is because girls weren't allowed to be educated. All girls school is so that they could be, girls could be educated in an environment where they were allowed to have everybody think about the answer. And so that it they weren't competing with somebody who wasn't who was just going for attention. In my classroom, I point out a lot of those things. But as a larger society, as I'm watching, you know, Jasmine Crockett and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and James Tolerico, thank you, John, um, or Beto O'Rourke, or Corey Booker, or um, all of these people, I'm very conscious of what's being slung at them or how they are continuously struggling to fight.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

And their gender is only important to the people who are opposing them. Right.

unknown 55:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

But I know that their gender also impacts how they are presenting. What does it mean to be a man? Like I have uh really struggled with that. Anything, anytime I come up with what I think is an answer, that's being a good person.

SPEAKER_06 56:16

Yeah, that's being grown. That's being a personality. That's being an adult. That's being awake. That's being a good citizen. Being a good citizen, yes. But what does it mean to be a man? You're real I mean, Antonio, you we may have won you over to the people are complicated side of the aisle. I think so.

unknown 56:36

No.

SPEAKER_05 56:37

This is not this is not simple.

SPEAKER_06 56:38

No, in all in all seriousness, I've got I've heard this a few times where you know we've gone back and forth. Whether it was immigration is simple, not complicated. People are simple, not complicated. I'm gravitating towards your point of view on this, Antonio, meaning when it comes to humanity, we're self-protective, we're self-interested. That's pretty much that defines almost everything we do. So it's not that complicated. Immigration is not that complicated. We let in the people we want, we try to keep out the people we don't want. But this is a complicated issue, not because it's about human nature, because it's about gender, our role in society, how we've been conditioned to be based on a ton of different things, based on history, based on evolution, based on race, based on economic background, based on schooling, based on parent, based on order that you are in your family, all of those different things. I mean, I'm I'm rethinking now too. Even I mentioned my parenting and I talked about my two sons and trying to be very deliberate about teaching them to be a man. And yet I have a daughter too, who's the youngest, who I didn't point any of that masculine here's how to be a man kind of stuff. But I certainly poured into here's how to survive in the world as a person. But interestingly, with her, I took myself out of the gender language because I'm not a woman, and I thought I can't teach her to be a woman, but I could teach her to be a grown-up. And it's that's so it's almost like you're saying the same thing, Antonio. Like we could just take the man-woman language out of it entirely and just talk about being enlightened, being woke, being thoughtful, being mature, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Thank you all for joining us in our conversation of manhood. Not that we've solved anything, but we needed to dive into it as Resistgendered heterosexual men. This was our opportunity to sort of get these thoughts out. But as always, we invite you to join the conversation. Please comment, subscribe, like. If you appreciated the conversation, share with your friends. If you didn't, keep it to yourself. David Melville, I see you. And so that's this episode of Three for the Founders.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Woo!

SPEAKER_04 58:39

Bam.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 58:42

Still got questions, other things you want to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram or TikTok and let us know. Till the next time, Left On Founders.

SPEAKER_06 58:53

We out. Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. Right now, I trip out on m the words maiden name. I can't say that anymore. It feels creepy to me. Like, what was your maiden name? Wait, what was the name when you were a maiden when you were when you were still your dowry had not been calculated and you were still a maiden unmarried?