Ep. 14 — Why Some Rooms Aren’t for Everybody (and That’s Okay)

🎙️ Episode 14 — “Why Some Rooms Aren’t for Everybody (and That’s Okay)”
 

🔒 Exclusive doesn’t always mean elitist. Sometimes it’s the only way to keep a space sacred.
 #SafeSpaces #Belonging

Think “safe space” means beanbag chairs and free coffee? Think again.
 In this episode of Three for the Founders, Lybroan, Reynaldo, and Jon dig into the real meaning of sacred spaces—the rooms, circles, and communities built not just for comfort, but for survival. Spaces that hold identity, protect culture, and preserve histories too often erased.

They explore the deep roots of Black fraternities and why their existence has always been more than social. They take on the strange, rarely-named phenomenon of white “affinity spaces.” And they unpack how certain kinds of “inclusion” can quietly dismantle the very communities they claim to celebrate.

The conversation asks uncomfortable but necessary questions:

• Who really benefits when everyone is invited?
• How did Brown v. Board of Education open legal doors but shut cultural ones?
• What’s the difference between being excluded and simply not being the intended audience?
• How can well-meaning outsiders avoid unintentionally colonizing a space built for someone else’s healing?

Part history lesson, part cultural roast, part uncomfortable mirror—this episode will have you rethinking the spaces you enter, the company you keep, and what belonging actually means.

💡 Action Items for Listeners:

1. Reflect: Identify a space in your life that feels sacred to you—what protects it, and what threatens it?
2. Listen & Learn: If you’ve been an “outsider” in an affinity space, think about how you showed up—did you listen more than you spoke?
3. Engage: Share your thoughts or your own experiences with sacred spaces using #ThreeForTheFounders.
4. Discuss: Bring these questions to your next group chat, team meeting, or family dinner—see how people define “safe” differently.

🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. And if you walk away without at least one “oh… yikes” moment, you weren’t really listening.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Before we begin, I want to give a shout out to our store roars of Zeta 5 Beta Sorority Incorporated. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

See my sisters. Under the dove. For sure, for show. We're brothers. We're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Give me a five. Alright, cut and print. Beautiful guys. I don't like that. Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years. And now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go. So he went to Harvard. What else did he do? Who are you, LeBron? Oh man, I am simply LeBron James, the son of Papa James. Papa James. Mathematician from UCLA, former math teacher, now math coach, training teachers how to teach math to black and brown students because all learning is political and cultural. Don't get it twisted. So I am obsessed with the mathematics of life, the mathematics of relationships, and recognizing patterns in our society. And as a futurist, someone who studies the future, I look at those trends to predict what's coming down the pike. And I'm so excited to be here with my two fraternity brothers to have this open and honest discussion about topics, how they relate to race, and our various perspectives on those topics. My man Antonio. Reynaldo Antonio Macias.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Captain T shirt.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Oh my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Reynaldo Antonio Macias, teacher, educator. I like to read. I like to think. I like to write. I like to speak. I feel like it's our responsibility to investigate what has come before in order to create a better what is to come after. Because all we have is this present. And so I like to be present with these gentlemen. I like to be present with you all. And uh I'm ready to get it started. Hello, brother.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Let's go. John. Yes, sir. Let's go. My name is John Augustine. I'm here in Los Angeles with two of my dear brothers and friends. I am a communications consultant and executive coach. I'm also a musician and a creator, and I am obsessed. I'm obsessed with communicating clearly because I believe most of what separates people is misunderstanding. I'm holding on to that. Out of my cold, dead hand will be this conviction that the majority of what separates us is misunderstanding. And I know that I have misunderstood so many things. And these two gentlemen, you two who are here with me, represent big, big, big evolutionary steps in my own understanding of the of racism in America, of identity, of what it means to be American, of citizenship in general, of brotherhood, sisterhood, and everything under those umbrellas. So I'm here because honestly, years ago, I put I built a spreadsheet of names of friends I thought were just so cool and intelligent. And I thought, if I could just record conversations with these people, I would love it. And you two, top of the list. I mean, we really there's a lot of reasons we do this, but I just like to kick it with you all. So that's one of the reasons we're here.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Thanks. Well, John, why are we called Three for the Founders?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

We are called Three for the Founders for uh at least three reasons. Reason number one, there are three of us, and three is the magic number, not only according to math, but also according to De La Sole and others. Look it up. We are members of the most honorable Five Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc. Incorporated, which has three founders A. Langston Taylor, Charles I. Brown, and Leonard F. Morris. Test me on that. So three founders of this podcast, the three of us, three founders of our fraternity, but also we talk about the founders of the United States, the ideals that they allegedly laid out, and how they have fallen by the wayside, how we have failed to or succeeded in following the foundational principles of this country that the three of us love so much, we reserve the right to criticize her and make her better.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

The other thing that I was going to uh well, there were two other things. One of them was sacred spaces. Jillian, um, so we were meeting about school, and then we got on the podcast, and she's like, Yeah, I hate earphones, so when I listen to you and I'm walking, I'm just playing it out loud. There are a lot of people who've listened to your podcast, they just don't know that's what it is. But she was tripping out, she's like, There are white people in black fraternities. It blew her conception.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

That is a big thing now. White people in black fraternities. Yes, I've seen we have tons of white members in Sigmas. I see tons in Kappas, I see quite a few in Alphas. I think I only seen two in the Qes. Yeah, the Qs are gonna hold off for a long time. I said they whooped his ass. I'm like, whoa. I know them cubes. Well, I'm surprised. I thought Alphas would be the I think that I thought alphas would have more white members than anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Or were you saying the opposite of the city?

SPEAKER_02 5:15

I thought they'd have fewer. I thought they would have fewer.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

It was an alpha that cornered me at the basketball game. I told you guys guys about that one time because I had my five to see the hat on. Yes. And he was like, you know, we're very Afrocentric. I don't know if we would, you know, does it was that problematic for you? And I was like, two beers in my hand. I'm like, just I'm just trying to go see the UCLA game, sir. He asked if I was financial, I'm like, yes, I'm financial. Go on.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Now, now, she was fascinated that that's how we knew each other, that white people were in black fraternities. And I said, So all of those fraternities that you knew about when you were at Kansas were racist. Like they didn't allow in black folk, they didn't allow in Jews, some of them didn't allow in Catholics, they definitely didn't allow in Latinos or Asians or whatever. And so our organizations were founded in part as a response, well, as a response to that, but part of that meant that we weren't excluding people for race. Now, I'm not saying that there's never been anybody turned down from Five B to Sigma because they weren't black, but you can't do that, and so it got me into the the sacred spaces conversation.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Gotcha, okay, dude.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

And here's when you said Billy Joel, you were mentioning how he was not is not known to be very introspective. His lyrics, he writes songs about things in people, aside from him. Like New York State of Mind is a love letter to his to his city for sure. And but also scenes from an Italian restaurant, you know, Brenda and Eddie had out already. He wrote, you know, Allentown about Allentown, Pennsylvania. He wrote about the Downeaster Alexa, Piano Man, which autobiographical, you know, but it but more narrative. They uh sit at the bar, put bread in my jar, and say, Man, what are you doing here? Like that, and it's the hero of that story. But then the title of the documentary is is my favorite Billy Joel song, which is and so it goes. And that is an introspective song where he opens up the kimono a little bit, and it starts off in every heart, there is a room, a sanctuary, safe and warm, to heal the wounds from lovers past until new ones come along. And it's a it's a breathtakingly vulnerable, sad song where he's he says, and and so it goes, and so it goes, and you're the only one who knows. Like he he basically he wrote writes it to this individual person who broke his heart, and he basically says, I know that my silence made you leave, or if my silence made you leave, that would be my worst mistake. But I you can make decisions too, and you can have this heart to break. And that's like he's never that vulnerable. And it's interesting that the first line talks about in every heart there is a room, a sanctuary, safe and warm, because you're talking about sacred spaces. I'm like Billy Joel is talking about there's a space in everyone's heart that maybe only one person occupies ever in your life, and that's kind of what that was about. It's heartbreak. So I'm thinking like when you talked about sacred spaces, I have stories and I'm I'm haunted by this because my life is so enriched by being having been shoehorned into your sacred space of uh black fraternity. And when I say shoehorned in, I mean obviously I I want you to tell the story, LeBron, a little bit because Antonio, you and I met each other in the dorm thanks to our friend Melanie. Melanie Griffith, is there Melanie Griffith? Melanie Griffith shout out. For those of you, just like we have LeBron James on our podcast, Melanie Griffith, maybe not the original because she was younger than the actress Melanie Griffith. But anyway, we we met in her dorm room. And where is she? What I recall is I had seen, oh, this is I'm gonna lose some five-bit of segment for street cred if I ever had any. I had seen the alphas step on the yard at UCLA, and it struck, it's it stopped me in my tracks because I was walking from class and I was like, Whoa, what is this? Well, what is this? And frankly, I saw an assemblage of you know, hundreds of black people in one place, which already maybe must have been must must have been. And I was just impressed visually, sonically, like, dude, what was that? Yeah, and I remember running into you, Antonio, and us meeting, and somehow the conversation of us seeing those steppers came up. And one of us, I think it was you, was like, I was thinking of checking out one of the fraternities, and I was like, Yeah, I think I was too. Is that how you remember it going down?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Um I don't remember the conversation. I do know that like we met, and within you know, four or five seconds, we talked about I want to say the alpha stepping. And so then we were like, oh, um, I I said I'm gonna check out because right, I was new to all of it. And and I had seen school days.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Oh my god. Hey, and I had seen Revenge of the Nerds and those trilambs, the Lambda Lambda Lambdas, two very different portrayals.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

But um, if you remember school days, there are the Alphas, which are an actual organization, Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. Much respect to them, and then there are the gammas, which are made up for the purposes of the movie, but those are the only two Greek letter organizations that are shown. And so all I knew was the alphas. And then I got on campus and saw the alpha step, and I was like, oh, okay. And I met one and I was like, I'm not hanging out with you.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

They had the same effect on me, as a matter of fact. Sorry, bruh.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Um, but I but I was still fascinated with the idea and the opportunity, and so looking around, I want to say I found Five Beta Sigma, right? I found New Delta, and um, and then you and I had talked about it, and so we went to the smoker and LeBron was was presenting, and that's where we met Dave because Dave was at the smoker too, right? Because we're three to hard. Shout out Dave Jones Sans. Shout out King David, King David. And um, that's how I remember it. So I don't remember the actual conversation, I just know that like you and I were cool, you were not clicked as soon as we were sent.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

We're like, yeah, I guess we're best friends now. Right. Yeah, um, and then we show up, and the reason I'm bringing this in the context of Sacred Space is obviously I show up with my white face to what in in the world of National Panolytic Council, NPHC, Divine Nine, Black Fraternity and Sororities, there's an informational night where this fraternity of sorority is going to present who they are and interview, maybe sort of casually, but somewhat not casually, interview pre-interview like people who are interested in learning more about what it means to join the fraternity. It's not an initiation, it's just a hey, check us out. So I recall that evening very vaguely, uh, and and LeBron, you were there, and I've learned since then that you had we asked you right then, is that white kid allowed into our fraternity? You would have said what?

SPEAKER_03 12:30

At that moment, I had reservations, but I wasn't opposed because my sands, Alex Molina, big brother hit him, history in the making, shout out to my sands. He was the first Latino into Five Bater Sigma at New Jersey. So he was my best friend, my freshman year in FSP. So I said, yo, Alex, we have to go. We're gonna go pledge Sigma together. And so he was catching heat for being Latino. So, you know, and I was protecting my sans. So I wasn't opposed to it. I was just like, what I saw my sans Alex go through, I'm like, oh, you gotta go through what he went through.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

You know, so that was my that was my point of view.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

You the target just got a little bigger when I walked in the room. It got a little bit bigger. That's when he got his second six six shooter out. LeBron's like, okay, yeah, you can you can come in here, son.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Um bringing that all the way back. You talked about being in the barbershop. And I I'm interested in the conversation about sacred spaces. It goes to this language thing, like who can say what and where can you say it, and what does that mean? And there are those who are mature enough to understand that sometimes that's not you. Yes, and sometimes that's just your space. And then there are those who feel like it's something that they did and they don't, that doesn't feel good for them. But the idea of sacred spaces, the spaces where people, back to Jillian's point, she was like, I know we have affinity spaces, right? There's a people of color affinity space, there's a white affinity space. And so she was confused in that conversation about a white person pledging a black fraternity.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Can you define affinity space though? Because that seems like a very specific educational moniker.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

No, I'm saying affinity spaces are safe spaces for groups who had who share a common identity. So, black people, we have an affinity space where we're just black people. White people had the first affinity space called the Ku Klux Klan. So that was the very first affinity space. Because I still can't go to those meetings.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

But why? Yes, you can. Dave Chappelle went.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

OWK Mell had a great episode where he was, yeah, chatted up with old Bobby on the side.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Dave Chappelle episode. Dave Chappelle episode about being the black clans.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

That's classic.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yes, yes. And so the one who got divorced when he found out he was black because his wife was a lover.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

That was the most classic line ever. Shout out to Dave Chappelle. But those affinity spaces are so important because we live in a white-dominated world. Yeah. So we never feel safe around white people ever. Yeah. We don't feel safe. We adjust, but we're never safe. Our guard is never let down. We can never just be who we are, speak our language. So everyone needs that affinity space to just say, huh, whoo, we could just be ourselves. And so when I oh go ahead. And so the last thing I'll say is Black and White Spaces that you Elijah Williams that you talk about. Oh my god, yes, that was amazing. And so I think affinity spaces are important. And if you go back to like the 60s and the civil rights movement, every organization created by black people for black people have been infiltrated by white people. And when I say white people, I mean the government. So they either get a white person to join just so they have eyes on black people at all times, or they find a sellout black person and say, We're hiring you, your job is to go in and disrupt and give us information. So we even when we have a black space, we're like, where's the sellout? We know he's in here. So that's part of when you joining the Fibeta Sigma, it was systemic suspicion, not John Augustine's suspicion. If there was a historical context to it. The only people who complain about affinity spaces are white people who can't be in them.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Or white people who don't recognize that they have affinity spaces. And so what they see is something they're being kept out of, not something they can participate in. I've mentioned the NAIS People of Color conference several times, which no longer exists because Mass of Senseo. See Donald Trump. And so there are three different blocks over the course of five days that are affinity spaces. And there is an African American or black diaspora affinity space, and there is a Latinidad affinity space, and there is an Asian affinity space, and there is a biracial affinity space, and then there was a white affinity space. And white faculty who went to the people of color conference had the most challenging time going to the white affinity space. And I've I've heard this from white faculty. I wouldn't go. Why not? Right. Because what they hear is other people are doing something. Why do I have to go stick with my own? I'm not kidding. No, you're not. That's what I'm laughing. They had to, they, they had to, they had to post guards outside the black affinity space. Wow. The black affinity space was popular. I know that was black. Of course it was. Had a dealer. Which is why the white people want to go to that. I kid you not, it was five ballrooms long. And black soul trained. Yes, black soul train line. Going all the way down.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Double entend.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

We was in there, and then it was a conversation. Hey, has there been a time where you've been challenged because of your race in your school? Hey, has there been a time where you felt like somebody responded to you in this? And people just tell them their stories. And I'm not telling their stories, I'm just telling you the affinity space. So the black affinity space is the largest affinity space. It like I said, five ballrooms. Had to post guards outside because, right? And John, you've said this before. Like we want to observe white faculty were not going to theirs because they were like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Because they heard the bass from outside. No, they didn't. They were six rooms away. No, they didn't. I'm I'm half joking because I mean, shoot, of the many reasons I wanted to join a black fraternity is this is the coolest shit on planet Earth going on, and I want to be a part of it. I mean, there's no I was I was an 18 going on, 19-year-old, actually just barely turned 18-year-old boy going, that's the coolest shit I've ever seen, and I want to be a part of it. And a black affinity space is going to be the coolest thing going on. And that kind of when you described every single one that's offered, which one sounds the most banging? Okay, we know. And the only reason the only way I would go to a white affinity space is they named it for what it actually was and then gave me a role to teach. If they called it space for the rhythmically challenged, and then John is gonna teach a class on how to clap on two and four, then I would I'll go to the white affinity space. But I would be my first fear would be like as I walk into this room, other people see me go into the white affinity. Like, is that a is that a white power meeting? What is this?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

But but John, it's not a surprise. You're white, and that's the affinity.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

This whole country is my affinity space. I don't need another one. Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

So why is there a problem that you go into a room? We're all going into rooms. Let me ask you to ask that question because I've postulated, right? I have I have someone postulate on that. Postulate. Well, we disaggregated racially. Yeah, we did. Right? And so the Latinos had no problem. Like none. It was like people people are looking forward to affinity spaces. They're like, yeah, the workshops are great. I'm going for the affinity spaces.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

I think I have an answer to the only group you haven't asked me yet. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

The only group that had a problem with going to their affinity space was white people being told you're gonna go with other white people. Hey. And so my question is, why?

SPEAKER_03 21:00

What is white culture? It's everything that's not the global majority. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

LeBron, you win the$10. You used it first on the global majority.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

And see, John, I want you to speak on this because this is the part that fascinates me so much about white people. White people fight to get away from people of color. You go live in the woods, you go up into the mountains, you buy expensive homes, you do pricism. You will lowest low-income homes at one point. You do everything to get away from people of color. You then white people get rid of DEI. Like, we don't want diversity. We want to get rid of immigrants. We just want white people. We like cool, y'all have that. We just gonna have our own little affinity group. You're like, no, no, no. Don't put me with the white people. That's what you just told me you wanted. So you want to be with only white people unless we say everyone go to their own group. Then you're like, no, no, no. Don't put me in a room with the white people. I just want to be around white people, and y'all can't be around nobody. Because as soon as we're with ourselves, that's when y'all get angry. Help me out.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

But we're not. LeBron. Hold on, John. I'm going to let you answer the question. But LeBron, you just reminded me we would be driving the step shows, and we were like, no, no, no. We got to take like five cars because we can't have more than four people in a car. That's the Coon congregation. Thank you. Like we're getting pulled over. We're going to get pulled over. Thank you. We're going to get pulled over.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yes. John, you're driving.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

We'll get there safe. You thought we liked riding in the back of the hooty?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Because we can fit eight brothers in the back and a white guy's driving.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

But your white guy was driving. Like they didn't think we kidnapped you. We're not ice.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

No, there's nothing to see here. These are my friends and brothers. Yes. Officer O'Malley's like blink three times if you're in trouble. So there's a there's a kind of tongue-in-cheek answer to this question, LeBron, about you know, white people have been doing everything they can to get away from black folks and color people and you know moving out to the woods and everything else. And and but you just called our bluff with this. We say, okay, all right, okay, white affinity space over here. We're like, oh, hold on. There are many things wrong with this. Number one, it's not going to be as fun or the food's not going to be as good. We don't have a cultural thing to rally around. And when I asked what is white culture, I actually do mean that. It's like if I think this is a white affinity group, my brain goes to when white people deliberate deliberately gather under the name white, it's usually the next pat the next word is power. Power, white supremacy, white supremacy. So to me, that's you will not that's what's in my head, and I have no interest in being part of that. So to one degree, I'm just going historically, white people gathering on purpose is not a great thing. Now, we gather not on purpose all the time and unaware that the entire name one time that white people don't purpose.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Is this name one?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

I'm just saying, just living lives as a white person. I'm just experiencing my entire affinity group, which is America.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Oh, I thought you were doing a plug for our next episode, which is featuring uh Dr. Christopher Carter, and it's about religion because Malcolm X said the most segregated hour in the United States is 11 o'clock on Sunday. He ain't wrong. You ain't wrong about that one.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

And one of you came up with a tagline that is Dr. Christopher Carter approved, which is God is not racist, but the members of his fan club are. That episode's gonna be firewinner as inhale. Fire. So you called our bluff and said, okay, you want to get away from us and go over here, but then suddenly we go, wait, the music's gonna be terrible, the food's gonna be bad, no one's gonna be dancing, everyone's gonna be, we're gonna have the southerners over here, we're gonna have the Midwesterners over here, we're gonna have the Californians from the north side, they're gonna have the Orange County people. Like, pretty soon the individuality of whiteness is gonna come up because we have talked in previous episodes that we don't have a white culture other than the symbols of America. So, what are we gonna do in the white affinity group? Wave a flag and say MAGA and eat bad potato salad? Like, what is what's there for me?

SPEAKER_03 25:14

What it sounds like to me, correct me if I'm wrong, from based on what you're saying, is that the only thing that connects white people is racism. That's the only thing they share and love together is racism. And if they can't exercise that, then why will we even hang out with each other? Because we're individuals. Okay. Oh, Antonio's shirt. Racism is a drug. Antonio, you wore the shirt at the right white place at the white time.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

White time.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

But it's a so you you've brought up the Tony, I think it was Tony Morrison quote, right? What would white folk be without black folk? Yeah, without racism. And I talked about Stephen Miller's white utopia and what he's forgetting about European culture prior to colonization. I mean, even during colonization, because part of why they divided up, you know, Latin America was they were like, I want this part of the world, I want this part of the world, but these are my Negroes, but these are my Negroes. The people of color conference, and and that's just what I'm focused on, because there were sacred spaces within that. But we can talk about the divine nine or the great eight as it was when we were there, and shout out to Iota Falceta. I can't believe it. Well, and there are Latino and Latina fraternities and sororities, and there are Asian fraternities and sororities, and there is that part of sacred spaces where sacred isn't deity inspired, but sacred is inspirational or spiritual or necessary for those involved, and how we step into that's what those affinity spaces are. Why do we step across those lines and what does it mean? You know, you've talked at length about why you wanted to do it. Like there's a shorthand. Yeah, yes, you saw 300 black people sitting out on the walk Wednesday at noon because that's what we used to do. That's why I couldn't ever take a one o'clock class on a Wednesday. I wasn't gonna be there, wasn't gonna get there. That was an affinity space. Yes, that's not the language that we use. We just it was Wednesday on the walk. Like we knew where we were gonna be, we knew why we were gonna be there, and you happened to come through it and went, could this be where I belong? What is this?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

But I want to I I do want to unpack this a little bit or delve deep because I don't think we need an affinity space, white people. In the context of sacred space, I have I have a story that I want to tell about my sister helping me see this. When I started to become more aware of my privilege and aware of that I'm aware of the water that I'm swimming in, it is a bit of that red pill, blue pill. You take the red pill, you're never gonna see things the same. And it it hit me in church, and it also hit me in the business world. I would be in so many, I would walk into a room that I didn't, I didn't know I was walking into a white affinity space, but it happened to be a sales meeting for a company I work for. And I look around and go, how come there's only white people in here? And then I go to another meeting in work, and I'm like, are we ever gonna get anyone who's not white in here? And since that time I've been very deliberate wherever I've been professionally, to try to draw attention to the fact and you know, bring bring up the cause of true diversity, and let's be deliberate about it, which others would negatively say is affirmative action. No, the best candidates, that's a whole other conversation. My point being that that I've been living in these accidental affinity spaces, white spaces my entire life, becoming more aware that, oh my God, everything's white. Why is everything white? Why is there always power with white?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

None of them were accidental.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

That was my point. Not one.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

It's no, I'm not I'm not saying that you purposely were like, I know you're a white company.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

I'm saying the spaces you went into that you're describing, those were all intentional, just like Five Beta Sigma is intentional.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

But intentional by American history, not intentional by the people planning those meetings. Yes, we we all inherited the same.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Yeah, sure. But but but this is so this is where right, the normal fraternities, this is where systems function in the manner that they were designed. None of those meetings were accidental. You didn't participate in them purposefully, but you participated in them until and for those who haven't seen The Matrix, the Wachowski Sisters, fantastic thought process and thought-provoking movies, the red pill and the blue pill is the decision to live your life swimming in the water or to see things as they truly are.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I just I used you red pill, blue pill, then there's some people who haven't seen that defining moments in our culture that I sometimes forget that some haven't participated in.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Well, and I had to say the Wachowski sisters, because they both transitioned since they made that movie.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Um didn't know that. The Matric is my favorite movie. Oh yeah, and so with the red pill, the blue pill is my favorite movie. But John, I wanted to make one point and then I want you to come back to this. Please. When I talk about white, let me share a few white affinity spaces.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

The US government is a white affinity space. Fortune 500 companies are white affinity spaces. Silicon Valley is a white affinity space. The owners of professional sports teams are white affinity spaces. So these are all white affinity spaces that people think naturally just occurred, but they happened on purpose, just like Vibeta Sigma, Zeta Phi Beta, Alpha Phi Alpha, Cap Alpha Psy, on purpose, with a purpose. And so Soul Train didn't accidentally have a whole bunch of black people there with Don Cornelius. Right. It was on purpose. Yes. Just like American Bandstand was on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Good old Dick Clark. Yes, my man. Well, see, I but I have a difficult time uh feeling any responsibility for these affinity spaces. I inherited them. I'm just showing up to a meeting.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

But you do feel no, but you do feel a responsibility because once you saw it, you spoke about it.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

No, but I didn't create it as much. I mean, take it. I didn't seek it, I didn't create it. No. I was born into it. Sure. And I'm trying to tie it back to the why I wouldn't go to a white affinity space at the conference. Okay, that's the one I'm trying to get. That's why I'm gonna get back to that white book. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. Everything you all just said. LeBron, you just listed eight things that are white affinity spaces. I don't have access to, I'm not an owner of a sports team, I'm not a Fortune 500 CEO. I'm not, but some of those things you mentioned, but you can go into those spaces though. I can go into those spaces. So, like, why do I need a white affinity space at a conference for for people of color? Like, this is the what am I running to? It's not even what I'm running from. What am I running to that I don't have anywhere else? And when I when I see, all right, let's just take the the black affinity space. Yes, it's it's the it's it is a sacred space in the we are going to gather and celebrate us. We are go, we're not just running away from the the stress that we feel. We're running to this thing that's amazing that we want to be a part of. And right, I might want to run away from like I I don't even have it. I've just I don't have anything I want to go to there. It doesn't sound necessary.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

So but couldn't you couldn't you sit in that white affinity space and talk about what you were getting out of the conference?

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah, if people if like-minded people are there, I just don't know if they're gonna be like-minded. Well, but they're white. I mean white-minded people are there. No, didn't we establish that we're all independents and we're like, no, I'm not a we don't talk about this, we don't talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

But you signed up to go to the conference.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

So there's an understanding of this conference that these are people who are thoughtful and woke.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yes. That that that these are people who are aware that when they walk into a meeting, everybody's right. That there's a level of awareness, right? And so and we're talking about that, and we're talking about the paternity, but it's as if you know, one step forward and two steps back, we talk about the yellow belt and we joke about it, right? You've learned how to do a front punch, but you can't do a back kick. It's a frustration to say, Well, you signed up for this conference, and part of the conference is affinity spaces, and all of the folks of color are appreciating in this 7,000 people who are here sitting with other faculty of color, maybe to commiserate, maybe to share strategies, maybe to celebrate each other and being there. There are a lot of things that happen in affinity spaces that have nothing to do with people who are outside of the affinity. Now help me out. Okay. And it's it it well, I was just gonna say it strikes me that the fear of being in a white affinity space for white people is mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

So I it's really funny, and Lorana, I know you have questions. Like, yeah, I don't see how you all can't see it, but now that I understand now that I understand the context of this particular conference, I'm going, okay, here's how I would handle it. Like, I'm not just going to some random conference where a white affinity space might actually have white power people in it. We're here because we are seeking these very specific measures of togetherness and unity and celebration of our culture. So, with the way I would handle this, if I was there with you all, I'd be like, hey, LeBron and Tony, I just want you to know I'm going to the white affinity space. And if shit goes down that I'm not cool with, if if some cross gets lit, right, I'm running out of there because I have no idea what to expect. But I need to go just to find out, just from morbid curiosity alone, what the fuck is a white affinity space? In this context, I can see Joni. I can see Greg. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

But see, to me, that is the the elusive part about whiteness, John, is that in this conversation, I'm hearing you say, if there is an intentional affinity group for my white people, designed for white people, you're saying, like, I don't think I want to go to that space. It could be some crazy stuff going on, it could be some supremacy supremacy thinking, some clan member. I don't want to go. However, all the other affinity spaces I talked about that are created by white people, it's like I didn't create these, but I'm gonna be in them.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

So is are white can a white can I so uh you just said that are designed for white people, and I would just say explicitly for like because those other affinity spaces you talked about are designed for white people, yes, right, but they're not explicit, like they're normalized. Now we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I went to a the word. I went to a sales meeting, not a white sales meeting, meaning the name of the white. I went to soul training, not black soul training. It's it was it's redundant, yes. And yeah, but it when you're swimming in the water, you don't see the water. When when all you've known is white people in your professional place, that's what you know until you get.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

That's why I had the child that I was talking to in teaching when I said, You know you're white, right? And his response was, Did you just call me racist?

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Okay, is that too much for one teacher?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Okay, can but he really he he sincerely, and this is a 12-year-old. He sincerely believed, I literally just said, What do you mean, we white man?

SPEAKER_00 37:43

He said, Did you just call me racist? Come on.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Come on. It does white doesn't mean racist. And yet, John, to your point, I'm not going in there. Because if you said white, they may be burning crosses.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

I mean, guys, come on. Any anytime you insert the name white into anything, fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

That's the Phil Dunfey t-shirt. They went to family camp and they were on the white team, and he had a t-shirt that said, if you ain't white, you ain't right. That's right, and he had the and the cabby is and the cat and the cab driver is Middle Eastern, and he's throwing their luggage around. And Phil's like, I don't understand why. I was just what I'm wearing my dude t-shirt. In more ways than one, Phil.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

But see, this goes back to our previous podcast episode where we talked about the Constitution and should they include the word white. We said, Yes. They said, No, it's it was understood. But now, John, I understand possibly why they left the word white out. Because when we say white affinity space and we put the white on it, there's a negative connotation. But you have all these other affinity groups that you say don't start with the word white, but they're understood to be white, they're exclusionary, but they don't put the word white, so then you feel okay. Like I didn't create this, I'm not a part, I'm not responsible. But if we said white affinity group, as soon as you walk in that room, you feel associated. Yeah, you feel responsible. So if they just said though, you know, all white men are created equal, consciously or subconsciously, you couldn't handle it because the spotlight is on you. The the hood has been taken off. And so now that's why I'm interested that the white spaces are the ones that exclude people of color without using the word white. So then to say you mean like the masters of my god, give me yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Did I say that? I'm sorry. This is on like or the Jonathan Club. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

In Santa Monica, the Jonathan Club? Yep. So then how are we supposed to navigate all these white? Well, the United States is a white affinity group, so let's just start with that. How are we supposed to navigate that? Have our own space, and then have you not tried to come in our space or feel offended when we say we just need space. We don't need you, we just need our own space. When you have the rest of the country, can we have these two hours in this room? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

I not long after 2020, when you pointed out, Antonio, that one of the main reasons why the the murder, the lynching of George Floyd was made such national headlines is because we're all at home. It was during the pandemic and we weren't doing anything. So is this wasn't anything new. If you've grown up black in America, you had seen this and you were aware of this and you were emotionally connected to it, but it connected all of us in a way. And so sometime after that, there was there was a strain within liberal, liberal and progressively minded folks. And I'm going to speak specifically to Los Angelinos, like Californians, people from our town, where protests would happen. And one of those protests that came afterwards was somehow connected to teachers' unions and along those lines. So my sister's involved. And she came home one day and she told me something that really resonated with me. And I've had a similar experience not only in our fraternity, but in other situations. We don't have time for the story right now of mine. But her story was there's an African-American, a black woman that told my sister, Hey, um, we love you, we appreciate your support. Would you please stay out of our churches for a minute? We need some time. Yes. And the point, and that made me think about sacred spaces, where white people are unaware of when we show up to the black affinity space of the conference just because we're curious and because we hear that you're you're you're playing atomic dog and that's the song that we want to dance to.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

We don't realize that or because you're sincerely like I know your sister. I I love your sister. She was sincerely showing up to support and to participate.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

I don't even think she was going to the church per se, but the the woman was was proactively saying, what typically happens in moments like this is well-meaning white people show up to our spaces. Yep. In in to show solidarity and support, and frankly, sometimes to wave a flag and and draw attention to themselves. Sometimes that's the issue, too. But she said, We need our time, and which I really appreciate that. And and the idea is we don't realize white people, we show up with our white face and we don't realize what the effect that has on you. That that makes you feel like you're being spied on.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

That that makes you feel like you're being overseen. Overseen. There you go. So there's a historical context.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

And we don't we don't realize that. We think we're showing up with our white energy, like, hey, I'm here to help. And you're like, actually, this is kind of a sacred space. Would you all keep your distance? Could you all speak? What do you what are you all thinking about this?

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Because I think a lot of times And I know exactly the meeting that you're talking about, not your sister's. Oh, you know the meeting I'm talking about, yeah. Yeah, I know the meeting you're talking about. I don't mean to put K on blast, but how did she respond when the woman was?

SPEAKER_01 43:04

My sister's very thoughtful and she totally understood. And she came home and talked to me about it and said, I I'm paraphrasing now, something to the degree of I didn't realize that was the effect that I was having. I didn't realize that my showing up was actually kind of stirring it up a little bit unnecessarily. And she's a person who has a lot of very high emotional IQ and understands boundaries really well. And it got me to rethink. I mean, I talked to you about this, Antonio, when we talked about, you know, the STEP team, the the citywide step team, and and I joked one time about a video that was going around about the UCLA step show, and there was the you know, it was it was like a camcorder view from from way up in the stands. And so the microphone is picking up the people around the filmer, and we're coming out as freaky New Delta does, you know, one at a time in our biker shorts in 1991 and our And I'm leather shoes. And I don't remember what the song was, but there was a lot of gyration going on. One brother, two brothers, three brothers, four brothers, I don't know how many. And eventually I pop out with my white ass. And I hear the voices around the camera, one particular going, that is a white man. Look at that. That is a white man. No way. Yes. So now I had never experienced what well dude. I stood out like a flashlight at midnight. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Hi LeBron. This is John as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

I'm just telling you. And it was really interesting because when do we ever get a chance to see ourselves from other people's point of view? And here I was with a literal point of view of a camera, this white dude in what is truly a sacred space, a black fraternity step show. A historically, this is the only time that we have where we get to be ourselves, where we get to play our music, sing it the way we want, do our dances without someone reporting or checking on us. It's just the same as centers. That was my favorite scene in Sinners is when he's singing. And they're like, there's some people that have like the kind of voice that summons the ancestors, and then it goes through you see the grass, you see the preacher, you see the hip hop, you know, the DJ. And when when there's a step show happening, I really mean this not to get too ethereal. When there's a step show happening, I think some of the strength, when you go boom with your foot down on that stage, it's not just you, it's it's your ancestors coming through you in those moments. I don't have access to that as a white person. I don't. I can feel some of that, but the minute I show up visually, I am now de what's the word I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

I'm now I don't know, because I know what you're trying to say. I don't know the word either. I think I know what you're trying to say. Sacredizing.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

When something is thick and then I'm like, I'm making it thinner, I am I'm just I'm dividing. I am taking away some of that that sacredness because now I'm the story. And that's what I didn't like about that. I because you know, stepping is about unity, stepping is about check out that team, and of course, I mean you see Sydney's like, okay, there's Sydney. I mean, Sidney's there's a reason he was in the front most of the time. So um the whole point is I have to I've become comfortable with the fact that I make people uncomfortable in this environment, and that it's my job to discover times where I should back off. Like, you know what? I don't want to, I don't want to to dilute, I think is the word I was looking for. I don't want to dilute and I don't want to be the I don't need to be the headline. Diffuse. And so because we, my people, drove you all into corners your whole life. And you are so you had this the cultural strength through music, through story, through just pure resilience and strength. You survived. And a lot of it had to do because you had sacred spaces where white people weren't looking in on you. And music is a big part of that. Dance is a big part of that. And uh, so that's that's my lesson in all this is you know, some sometimes we as white folks got to realize the best help we can give is to back off and then work among ourselves to make these white spaces affinity spaces for everybody while you have your affinity space and we don't have to jump in there, says the white dude in the black fraternity.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

You know, and I'll just say this real quickly, and I'm sure we'll have an episode on education. We may do two or three on that. Um and the racism that exists in education. But I'm always fascinated that like programs like Teach for America, they get these middle class, upper middle class white women who go to these night schools to come teach in the inner city. And they think, well, these kids are poor, these black and brown kids are poor. We need to get these white teachers into the inner city to help lift them up. That's a misnomer. Take those white teachers and send them to the white schools to teach white kids. See, the problem is when white people try to help black and brown people, we're not the ones with the problem. Your white family members are the ones with the problem. So go talk to them. Bro, desegregate, you know, disaggregate with your people. Fix them. Oh my god, bro. That go affinitize with your people. Affinitize. You know, I just made that work. What you gotta do?

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Why do you gotta burst the white savior bubble here, bro? Come on, man. You're taking the energy away. Here's my white savior's.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

No, no, no. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna end this, I'm gonna end this sacred spaces conversation, at least this version of it, with with this hot take. Brown versus Board of Education did more damage to black and brown communities than anything in the 20th century.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

I agree 100%.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Because you had black teachers teaching black children, living next to black doctors, living next to black janitors, living next to black mathematicians, living next to black rocket scientists, and the forced integration destroyed. When we talk about a wealth drain culturally, economically, because all of a sudden, buying into this white supremacist notion, going to the white school was more important than having the teacher that understood who you were. And guess what? Suffering the trauma of integration was more important than getting an education. And and so that wasn't a sacred space, except that life is sacred. So this idea of sacred spaces and and historically what those have been, right, John, you you alluded you you literally said, you know, we've pushed you into corners and you've survived in those corners. Right? But then those corners I'll carry the metaphor all the way through. Those corners are dark and you can't see into them. Well, but there's safety in that darkness. Where uh so this is the conversation that we're having and not the conversation, right? Not the conversation we were planning to have. I want to say thank you for sticking with us. I want to say thank you for listening, and you're always welcome to jump on. If you're one of the people who has a problem with us, we want to hear from you. Text us and let us know. If you're one of the people who loves us and loves what we're doing, text us and let us know. And if you're not one of the people who has a number that you can text us to, leave a comment. But think about what it is you're contributing. Because we're here for conversation, but the arguments you can leave it on.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Thank you so much, everybody. All right, y'all. See you later. Peace. Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at threeforthefounders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok, or send us a text through Buzz Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left on Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

And so what does it mean, right? Because I know you all have done, I have walked into a room full of women and been like, Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Every day I go to work.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

You both literally sat up, you both went like this. Am I supposed to be here? And maybe you're not.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

Exactly.