Is God Racist? w/ Dr. Christopher Carter - Ep. 15

🎙️ Episode 15 — Is God Racist? No, But Their Fan Clubs Are.

God’s PR department has been putting in some questionable work for a few centuries now. Reynaldo Antonio, Jon, and Lybroan sit down with Dr. Christopher Carter to unpack how the Being who allegedly made all of us somehow keeps getting represented by people who seem very… selective about which parts of “love thy neighbor” they like.

We follow the trail from slaveholder “edits” to scripture, to modern pulpits draped in flags, to the quiet ways exclusion still hides in plain sight. Along the way, you’ll hear laughs, long pauses, and the occasional theological side-eye. Because here’s the thing: God’s fine—it’s the fan clubs you need to watch out for.

🧠 Things to Ponder:

• When did “love thy neighbor” get a fine-print clause?
• Is God’s biggest problem bad press… or bad readers?
• Can you be part of the club without buying the merch?

✅ Action Items for the Soul (and Mind):

• Read your holy books like a lawyer—not just a believer.
• Trace where your theology came from, and whose fingerprints are on it.
• Talk to God. Ignore the fan club rules for a minute.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, or  YouTube and let us know. Til the next time...left on Founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I was just lining up this question. So I'm gonna ask you, what's your favorite punctuation mark? Are you asking all of us or just Dr. Carter? I'm asking all of you. Dr. Carter's working on his his setup. So I'm letting him work on his setup.

SPEAKER_06 0:15

I'm still laughing because that's just that's a funny question. Mine is a semicolon. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

I I Are you serious? Why is yours? Yeah, why is yours a semicolon?

SPEAKER_05 0:23

I have no idea, but I love the semicolons. Like I could put two senses together, but I don't I'm not on my period. I'm not on my period. I mean, I'm not to use a period, I mean.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

But I'm glad you clarified that this is not the time you're not on the lunar cycle. This is not happening at this exact moment. Because we know how you are. The men all pause, John.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

The men all pause. The men all pause. That being said, John, what is your favorite punctuation mark?

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I can't. Oh, I tell you what, with great power comes great responsibility. The apostrophe pisses me off when misused to no end. And it satisfies satisfies me deeply when it's used correctly.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Thank you for diving into the negative when I asked for a positive. I said, What is your favorite?

SPEAKER_03 1:16

I don't have one. I just think that's it. That's the one that stands out to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

You gotta work on that, you pessimist. Um so I said that I started with I wanted to tell you all about the intero bang. The what? The intero bang. You're unfamiliar with the intero bang. I can see. You've seen it. It is the question mark followed by the exclamation point.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

That's called an intero bank or bang? It is bang.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Entero bang.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

You have to coordinate. You got to coordinate.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

LeBron has an intero bang in Brazil that we don't talk about.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

You got to coordinate. But the interobang, it they tried to make it a unified character where it had an exclamation point, it had the question mark, they met at the bottom, and then they had the dot, right? Oh. But because of typewriters and the way that they were structured, they couldn't do that. And so the interobang is those two punctuation marks put together. Is there a particular order? It has to be a question mark and then an exclamation point.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

I just love that they came up with the term intero bang. That's pretty cool. Oh, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

I've been using it my whole life as a black man. I didn't know. I was like, what? That's an intero bang.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I didn't even know it. Exactly. We're brothers. We're happy and we're singing and we're colored. Give me a five five.

SPEAKER_06 2:49

All right, cut and print. Beautiful guys. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_05 2:56

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years, and now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

So, welcome to Three for the Founders. As you notice, if you're one of the five people who watches this on YouTube, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Um, normally there are three faces here, and they're three faces that you know. But today, on Three for the Founders, we have our very first guest. And I'm gonna let John introduce him. But I just wanted you to know you're here for a historic moment. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Indeed, I am thrilled. I am honored, I'm privileged to introduce to everybody the Reverend Dr. Christopher Carter. Dr. Christopher Carter's research, teaching, and activist interests are in black, womanist, and environmental ethics with a particular focus on race, food, and non-human animals. His publications include Race, Animals as a New Vision of the Beloved Community in Animals and Religion, Routledge 2024. The Spirit of Soul Food, a book that I am about halfway through right now. It's phenomenal. The Spirit of Soul Food, University of Illinois Press, December 2021, and Blood in the Soil, The Racial, Racist, and Religious Dimensions of Environmentalism in the Bloomsbury Handbook on Religion and Nature, Bloomsbury 2018. In them, he explores the intersectional oppressions experienced by people of color, non-human nature, and animals. Currently, he's an associate professor of theology, ecology, and race at Methodist Theological School in Ohio, lead pastor of the Loft at Westwood United Methodist Church, and he is also on the board of directors of Farm Forward, an antifactory farming nonprofit. He is married to Dr. Gabrielle Carter, a small animal veterinary oncologist. And while their son Isaiah is not a doctor of any sort, he definitely believes he is smarter than his parents. It's one of the few things we do indeed have in common, Dr. So welcome to the show. Our very first guest, Dr. Carter. Welcome. Dr. Carter.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

No, thank you all for having me. I'm delighted to be here and excited for the opportunity to honestly just talk theology with um. Normally I do this, you know, from this professional place in a congregation or with a bunch of other um folks who are more or at least as nerdy as I am. So it's nice to just be with like regular people who are just smart in a general different area. You got that right. It's like have have just different kinds of intelligence that are just narrowly focused in this one area, so not really, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

All right. Well, Dr. Carter, Christopher, give us some time. You'll see the nerd come out.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I've listened to enough podcasts. I know. I hear. Okay. I hear. I'm waiting for Antonio to come with like some date from something that I need. Oh, yes, which is like surprises me. So that's right.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

LeBron dropping some mathematical term I've never heard of before, and you know, and then just don't let me get into music. So, Dr. Carter, Christopher, the reason I know you or I know about you, and I just I'm just starting to get to know you is because of our com our common friend Jay Wirth. Jay, I've known for almost, I was just calculating, almost 40 years. I knew this guy early in high school. We met, and I've gone through my own faith evolution in the last several years, many, many years, just deconstructing my faith, my Christian faith that I was sort of raised in, and got real serious in high school, and then just went through an incredible, incredible evolution and development. And as and Jay was the perfect guy to talk to about this. Jay and I surfed together a lot. And we were floating in the water one day, and I was talking to him about some podcasts I was listening to, some books I was reading, and I mentioned a very common phrase in sort of the Christian religious world right now, which was deconstructing the gospel. So, you know, I'm just really going through deconstruction and deconstructing my faith, deconstructing the gospel. And he said, we sit there floating on surfboard. He goes, Well, my pastor, Dr. Carter, talks about decolonizing the gospel. And then the response LeBron just had, I was like, whoop. Wait, what? Decor with who wait, who is this man and where did he get these words? And that was probably two years ago. Wow. And that just that sentence so resonated with me, and Jay was explaining it to me. So I feel like I've known you through him as he shared sermons that you've preached, as he shared your teachings and some of your writings with me. And then when LeBron was talking about further episodes that we could some of the topics we could have, and he brought up religion, and I'm going to toss it off to LeBron here in a second. I thought, you know what? I would love to have Dr. Carter on because the whole idea of decolonizing the gospel is going to fit very well with some of the things we've been talking about. So, LeBron, why don't you talk about the genesis of this idea and this episode to begin with? Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:59

You know, so our thing is we talk a lot about race and the various contexts in which it shows up. And I realized one of the biggest struggles for black people or people of color is belief. So belief is stronger than knowledge. In fact, I read recently, it says, what you believe has a lie in the middle, and what you know is happening right now. And so that really struck me. And I said, I wonder, is God a racist? Because the way in which he is portrayed in the faith that I grew up in in Christianity, the way I see it sometimes in Judaism, the way I see religion from Islam, it is very oppressive, first and primarily towards women, but then I know it's been used as a tool to oppress people of color. So I'm like, how do we deconstruct or decolonize God? And that was the question I began with. Is God a racist? Because we try to give God human characteristics, which I think is an insult to God. Like, you know, God don't, God, I'm not gonna get married until you bring me somebody, God's gonna choose my meat, or God's gonna do this, or like God didn't want that to happen. Like, you know, God is a just God. I said, Oh, I thought God was just God. So that was sort of the genesis. And so I appreciate Dr. Carter coming on to providing some context as we have this conversation because it's a very personal one for everyone. Beliefs run deep and and they trump, no pun intended, logic or knowledge, or reason.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, I I think that, well, first of all, I I love the wrestling that you name in terms of thinking theologically about God with respect to the context of race and racism. And I think any person who is, especially black people in America, but any person of color in America that's grown up Christian or grown up religious at all, at some point in their life has to wrestle with the reality of this question because religion has been used as a tool to justify so much violence and oppression. At the same time, those of us who also grew up in the church, particularly if you grew up in a black church, experience the redemptive power of religion. And and so I think some of us have a kind of complex relationship, meaning we've experienced something sometimes that we know to be transformative. We've had some experience that moved us in a way where we experience something beyond ourselves. We're like, oh no, that is real. Whatever that was, that's real. Yes, right. But it's other stuff that I hear people using or what they say doesn't quite make sense. And and and I think fundamentally, one of the challenges we have to have, and part of the, I think the one of the few benefits of getting a PhD in religion, and there's only a handful, but one of the few benefits is you get to do it.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Wait, obviously, wait, the first one is the first one is ridiculous amounts of wealth, right? Yeah, exactly. That is the first one. They just handed you buckets of gold upon graduation, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I married well. I married well. That's how it worked out for me. But um, is that you learn about the ways in which religion has been used in general uh as a tool to uh to concentrate power over others at times. And I had to be clear, I'm really talking about like monotheistic religion. Because if you get into indigenous traditions, you're not really gonna find a lot of ways in which they use that religion in the same ways that you're talking about weaponizing um and and getting a particular kind of power over other bodies, because their idea of what it means to be human is fundamentally different but then their indigenous worldview versus a monotheistic worldview, but then history of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, even from the beginnings. Like that's how I want to go back when you're talking about like uh race, right? Because you gotta think the beginning of Christianity, so the beginning of it uh of Judaism, you have Egyptians, yes, right, that have a religion. They have this Jewish community in Egypt, they're and their religion tells them from the Egyptians that what they are doing is right. They have some belief that the Pharaoh is a god, that the Pharaoh gets directions from their God to say that what the Pharaoh is doing to this group of people they have enslaved is a good and just thing. The intervention happens when Moses, right, experiences, sees this death, sees a murder of someone that he's connected to, someone that's that's in fellowship with him, um, gets scared and runs away, but in the midst of his running away, has some kind of experience connecting to God where he's like, No, I I need to actually something has happened in me and I need to go confront my community. And he believes it is God that's telling him to go do this. Now he goes to his, he goes to the people, he goes to the Pharaoh, he says, Hey, God told me I'm supposed to let that I'm supposed to leave you out of freedom. They're like, literally, they're just like, well, okay, we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

That's already if that's already out the bricks. We need someone to make the bricks.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

I mean, it's so funny you mentioned that, John, because it's actually what like there's a section in there right after that, but they're like, you know what? We have to go handle this stuff. We don't want to make the Pharaoh mad. So if you read that Exodus story, the first three plagues that he does to prove that that Moses and Aaron do to prove that they're called by God, the the um Pharaoh's religious proof, the Pharaoh's priests also can replicate some version of that as well. Um, and in the midst of Moses going and saying, I want you to free my people because they need to come worship our God, the Pharaoh responds by saying, No, first of all. Second of all, I'm gonna make your people do more work, right? And it wasn't until this fourth, the until the fourth plague, until the fourth plague was supposed to make gnats come out of the ground, that the pharaoh's priests could not do it. And it was at that moment, that delegimization of the the Egyptian religion that the Israelites actually believed in this God. It took something that was so profound to wake them up from this kind of uh religion of performance that was the Egyptian religion, to believe that God actually was a free God. And so this is a that's a long story for me to get to the point of saying the problem often happens in religion, is it gets to the point where it wants to control God. Uh-huh. When the when and and what you see in the first three commandments, what you see from the beginning of that story, is that it's saying God is a free God. Like God is free, like like you will have no other guys before me. Like you cannot control me. Like, this is a God that is free. And the the problem we have is that you have a different cultures, different races, different political parties. Everybody thinks they speak for God, right? All the time. But they are not God. God is a free God. Thank you. And so this is the challenge that we come up with, and this is how you get people manipulating um religion for power.

SPEAKER_06 15:16

Now, Dr.

SPEAKER_05 15:17

Carter, you say God is a free God. You mean free as in no binding or free as in no money? Because all the churches I went to, I ain't never seen a free God any church. Because you better pass the plate if you want to go through that gate to it.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

We got a we got a two-for-one special God today.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Oh, well, I mean God free in the ontological sense, which is a fancy way of saying that we cannot control God. Um, but no, I I I I think that, you know, even the economics of church is a part of what leads to the kind of corruption that we're talking about. And I know that was a joke, but it's a serious component, you know, because so much of what is happening, um, when you're talking about controlling, trying to believe you can control God, is you we make things into idols that we worship and we use God as a way to um worshiping those idols, we say, well, this actually is God. But you know, oftentimes in religious spaces, their God is actually money, their God's power, their God's politics. Um, and so often, whether it be Christianity or Judaism or Islam for that matter, when it's critiquing outer worship, it's often like that's the main sin it's critiquing, that you are making something God that isn't God. That is the primary sin throughout the Bible, you know, and as much as people talk about other stuff, I think it really comes down to making things God that's not God.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

But you you use so I have two questions, and one of them is one that I brought, having having studied up a little bit, and one of them is one that you you sort of generated. Because in talking about this, we were talking about uh religion versus faith, right? Faith being a belief in things unseen, and religion being the trappings that humans give to that faith in order to prove to themselves and others that their faith is justified. And so what I heard you saying is that religion is used in different ways, but that control over God is paramount for those who are creating that religion, basically.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I would say it doesn't have to be it, it doesn't, it never starts out paramount. Like, you know, with you talking about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, it starts out very righteous in the beginning, you know. All these founders have the right kinds of ideas and they understand that they can't control God. And what they are trying to do is put as to use your language, they're trying to find forms, religious forms to express their faith, right? And so think about this, right? So you have so just to get to Christianity, but Jesus, Jesus spends a whole lot of time, the vast majority of his ministry ministry, talking about what people ought to do. A handful of times Jesus says what you need to believe. I mean, literally, like I think four times. Otherwise, the beatitudes ain't got nah and one belief in there. It's like what you're supposed to do. And what happens over time is when people get they want to codify and it gets to this notion of control, we get a lot more interested in what you need to believe in order to exercise some type of control over you. And so for me, I think what happens the more unsettling parts of religion is when it gets disconnected from um actions rooted in faith, and it gets more focused on having what we call orthodoxy or correct belief. And so and that's so and focus on correct belief, I think really misses the point because there's just so much that we don't know. Like I I still identify as a Christian. Obviously, I'm I'm a pastor, but I've learned so much about God from studying other religions, like so much about God from studying other religions. And and I wouldn't change that for the world. I still understand God through a Christian lens, but studying Islam and learning about why they pray the way they pray changed the way I pray. Again, like that fundamentally changed the way I pray. And and and so um I think having some humility, recognizing that our beliefs evolve over time, yeah, but our faith at its core should have some substance there, I think is is is the key. And you know, a lot of folks talk about God, they they're not really humble. There you go.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

You know, one of the things that I mean I really found that really shifted my experience in understanding religion. I grew up Baptist, Christian, then I took a philosophy of religion class at UCLA. And the professor was saying, you do not believe in your religion. You've been indoctrinated into, but you don't believe. So he said, if you want to believe, give up your faith for this quarter. Study, spend time studying Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. After you study those, then choose which one you want to believe in. Then at that point, you believe in something and you're not indoctrinated. And so that what has been sort of my journey is exploring all of them to come to a belief. But the one thing I'll I'll add, and then I'll let I'll let you guys carry on, is a challenge for me as a mathematician and being logical is that religion is a belief system. Racism is a belief system. So religion and race are constructs that don't exist, they've been created by man and storytold and narrated and marketed and sold in a way that they have an effect. And when those two come together in my experience, the Christianity story and then the racism story, and they combine them, and then I get white Jesus, then I'm like, yo, uh, this hasn't been working for the last 500 years. So why do we still keep following the story that doesn't work for us? And how is it that the people who it works for are the same people who are oppressing us? So how can we both like do I believe in the same God as Donald Trump?

SPEAKER_00 21:27

I mean, Donald Trump don't believe in God.

SPEAKER_05 21:29

He said, I was gonna say you're making an assumption there, but you're making an assumption. Well, he wrote his own Bible, so I figured.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah. Well, no, he's selling the devil.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

It is he's holding his own Bible up as he you know pushes people out of DC. But we weren't talking about his coup attempts.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I think, I mean, that's such a God. I mean, you said a lot there that I kind of want to at least spend a second to tease out with respect to the role of why many black people stay Christian. And I think the one thing I want to say, and this is actually, I was reading up for I did a sermon on Sunday on the prophets, and I'm trying to find it here real quick. And it was actually, I came across this um essay written by, or is actually a lecture given by um Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel at the first conference of religion and race, where he gave the opening remarks and King gave the closing remarks. It's actually the first time they met. And and um, so I just want to read this this first paragraph because I think this to me fundamentally explains why, particularly black Americans still practice Christianity. Um it says, quote, at the first conference on religion and race, the main participants were Pharaoh and Moses. Moses' words were, Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, let my people go, that they may celebrate and feast to me. While Pharaoh retorted, Who is the Lord that I should heed his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, moreover, I would not let Israel go. The outcome of that summit meeting has not come to an end. Pharaoh is not ready to capitulate. The Exodus began, but is far from having been completed. In fact, it was easier for the children of Israel to cross the Red Sea than for a Negro to cross certain university campuses. Let us not dodge no issues, let us yield no inch to big history, let us make no compromise with callousness. And I think for me, the reason why black people have maintained Christianity is because at its core, Judaism and Christianity are religions that emerge out of oppressed and marginalized communities. And this is what I mean by decolonizing, right? You have a captured, you have you have a captured, you know, an enslaved population of Jews. And then you have Jesus, people forget, was a Palestinian Jew living under Roman colonial occupation. Shut your mouth. Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

An immigrant. Here comes the t-shirt reveal. Ready? Okay, Captain T-shirt. Here it comes. Here it is. We got a stripper on our program. We're ready. Hold up. Can you read that anyone? It says rejoice in the birth.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Rejoice in the birth of a brown-skinned Middle Eastern undocumented immigrant. Captain T-shirt has arrived.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Right on time.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And I think that people, we don't understand that. Like I think many Christians, because the way we've been taught, you know, Christianity through this Eurocentric lens, has, you know, it is blue-haired, blonde, you know, clean robed Jesus. And that's not the Jesus you read. Yeah. I mean, that's not the Jesus you see in the gospel. And and so I think the draw has been the actual story of the Jews, the story of Jesus. Again, Jesus looking at the prophet, he's looking at the prophetic text to draw his own, the religion that he's creating is a story of liberation. Um, and that the power within that I think holds true. And this is where you get to the distinction between again, faith and religion. Like there's faith being expressed there that's liberatory. The religious practices by some people within that religious tradition have been justified to enslave people and or to as with respect to race and also, as you said, patriot patriarchal oppression. Um, and this is the I mean, this is where I think it's helpful to think about sin, you know, for me personally, right? You know, uh, and and and so I know within the fiber of my being, Christianity can be liberatory. The challenge we have is I would say within the Christian framework, then a black Christian framework, is stop, we need to stop trying to practice a Eurocentric, sanitized Santa Claus Christianity. And that's what bothers me. Man, when I when I when I'm in churches and I hear them spending all this time talking about issues about gender and sexuality, and they're not talking about capitalism. I'm like, are you even reading the Bible? Thank you. Because how many Jesus talked the whole lot about money? They're reading the Trump.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

They're reading the Trump Bible, or but they're practicing, right? Going back to what you said, they they are they are concerned with orthodoxy and not concerned with actions. Yeah, right. They're concerned with what the rules are and not concerned with what they believe and how those beliefs influence what they're doing. But the question that I had, I was driving a lot today, and I was listening to that the big lies of Christian nationalism. And what came up for me is is it possible to separate the people who create God from the dimensions that God takes or the beliefs that God espouses? Meaning that when Europeans encountered Christianity and usurped it, the same way Christianity encountered, right, the the the pagan beliefs about being the savior and and whatnot and and usurped those and and codified those. Like how do you why have other folks, Latinos, right, because Catholicism is super is super unique, why have those cultural groups not made that same assumption? Why have they not recreated God in their own image? Why have those cultures not put right? And and that's my challenge with it, having been raised Catholic and being lapsed when I turned 18, because it meant I didn't have to get up and go Sunday morning to serve serve mass, right? And never really getting back into it. Um never really getting back into the practice, and yet I find myself working at a faith-based school, echoing, you know, having gone to faith-based schools, echoing many of those values, that belief in something greater than myself that leads me to service, to your point about actions, and yet being very uh, you know, Heisman about organized religion. Like I have to keep it at hand's breadth. And there have been times where I have heard pastors such as yourself who speak to the liberation, who speak to the belief, who speak to the actions, and yet they seem to be washed over. You know, at this moment, you talked about a resurgence. Well, in your in your sermon that I heard, you talked about a resurgence of Christian nationalism. Like this isn't new, right? We've talked about white supremacy, you talk about white body supremacy being the original algorithm of the United States. Like utilizing religion, the organization of it, the codification of it as this tool for colonization, pushes me away from organized religion.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I think it's because so many, so many of us within organized religion, particularly by us, I'm talking about uh clergy of color, scholars of color, are afraid to critique it in a way that is honest and also lack the um, you know, so many of some of the like the institutional credibility and power, many grad churches or platforms are too small where no one's really listening to our voices. Uh I've been very um fortunate that you know, for whatever reason, I have been able to be around white people and call them racist and have them not get that upset with me to kick me out.

SPEAKER_05 29:50

We got we gotta hang out more often than Dr. Carter.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

I need some coverage. It has been, you know, it is it is, I don't even I kind of know, I kind of know the magic, you know, but like it's it's always still a little bit funny to me. I think it's genuinely because I actually do care about all people and that's what it comes across. Yeah, even the racist people. Like, I still care about you, I just don't want you to be racist. There you go, you know, or whatever. Um, and I think that you know, we haven't, and this actually where I would say one of my critiques of King, early King. King, we forget King died before he really got the chance to do because when you look at the end trajectory last year of King, they said, Okay, enough of that, brother.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

Yeah, you getting as ugly.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

It was it was about to be an X. Yes, it was it was about to be an X.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

That's like, you know what, we're gonna uh we're gonna lay off some of our security forces here and uh and hire a new one. Let people inside the perimeter a little more, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Yeah, no, it was the last if you look at like I always tell people my favorite speech of his is Beyond Vietnam, and he really connects capitalism, militarism, and racism. And he's like, these things are interlinked in American history, and and this distances them from the white progressive community because they're like, Why are you critiquing war? And the black progressive community, they're like, Why are you not just talking about race? And I think so. For me to get to your to I guess to get to your answer your question, Antonio, um I think institutional religion can have value if you have a a continued voice of people who are critiquing these systems loudly, boldly, and that's a part of their ministry. And that's hard to maintain that ministry because this is a non-profit where people gotta want to give you money. And who has the money, who has money in this country? The white yes, they do. Because this is because this is how this is the game because of capitalism. And so I think I think it's and so again, I say this knowing full well, I'm at a predominantly I'm at a white funded church, I would say. My congregation is pretty still predominantly white, but it's still it's integrated. Um, and I just happen to be at a place where they want someone like me to do this work. I don't know that I I I could have done something similar when I was at my church in Compton, which is an all-black church, it wouldn't have had some of the same reach that I'm able to have now. Um I think I think institutional religion is in in some instances is more interested in maintaining power and access than to be prophetic. Right. Right. And so you have that that that's the weakness, is we don't want to be prophets. They want to actually just have access to the capital, to the other prophets. They don't actually, yeah, exactly. And and that's that's not, you know, they they they ain't invite me to any of these, you know, gatherings of clergy or any of that other kind of stuff when it comes to talking about some of these issues, because I will be honest, and they don't want someone to be honest, they want somebody to tell them what they want to hear. There you go. Um and that's it's frustrating. I'm not gonna lie. So I'm not gonna, I'm not on this podcast to descend it. My colleagues who I think do a terrible job of being honest about um the horrors of the way people weaponize Christianity.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

You know, what I think is so powerful, and I that's why I love our podcast, is because we all have a lens into the opposite community. So you operate primarily in a white um um Christian environment. Like religious. And so yeah, Antonio and I have taught in primarily private white schools. And John being in music and being part of a black paternity, we all have a deeper lens into it than the average person, which is why I appreciate these conversations so much. I'm gonna say one more thing. I want John to hop in here because I need to, we need to ask some some some some flavor, some additional. You see me simmering over here, you see me. I'm gonna say it's questions. It's questions. Is that I find now I grew up Christian, but then I taught five years at a Jewish school. So I was with the rabbis and seeing how they operate and having those discussions, to me, religion seemed more cultural. So for black people, they're like, Don't you talk about my Jesus? So we never question the Bible. I'm like, can we ask some questions? Like, we're college educated, can we just ask questions? Like, why would you believe that? Like, do you believe that? Like, do you think that really happened, or is it a story? Is it is supposed to, you know, be an example? But black people won't question. Then when I hung out with the rabbis at school, they constantly struggle and grapple over the Torah, they argue and debate. And I it was so new to me. I never seen anyone question the word of God. They're like, that happened 2,000 years ago. This is today. What does it mean today? Now, and I was so excited and enthusiastic to I'm like, I need to bring some black people. We need to start being Jewish a little bit because at least they ask questions. But that questioning and that debating, they said, as part of their religious culture, led them to question and debate and go into the areas of law. Yeah, making me write and write and write go into journalism. So all these connections to religion that then lead into culture and they're intertwined, those are some of the things I see lacking for us. Like if you could watch the Super Bowl, then you score three touchdowns, you run for 200 yards. I want to thank Jesus for helping me. Really?

SPEAKER_04 35:27

Jesus didn't run the ball.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

I'm gonna thank Jesus. Jesus has not offensive. He's not a fan of the defense.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah, he's not a fan of the defense, apparently.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

He said we're just gonna win today. So I'm gonna thank you. That's right. Hold up, hold up. That's right. That's a little, we're going a little far with this. Come on, people.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Yes. Oh, God. LeBron, you said I've got oh, sorry, go ahead, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

No, I think I'm gonna say one thing, and then John I want to ask to you. LeBron, I think the challenge we have is we have so many insecure clergy. Oh god, yes, we have so many insecure clergy, and I think that's that's what it is. And I see, like in Antonio, like even as you walk through it, because there's so many there's so many Latino Catholic, like South American Catholic Latinos that are like revolutionary, right? Like that is I'm like, uh that's the kind of Christianity I'm talking about. I see your Pope, Francis. Again, you know, even so he's black and from Chicago, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 36:20

No, the old, the one that just passed.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

Yeah, Francis.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

The current Pope is a passing Pope, but he we we know. I'm like, you listen to what he's saying. I'm like, we know, we know.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Somebody read some Nola Larson. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

I think that I think that the inability or the resistance to question the Bible for many clergy, they don't want to allow it because they think it's gonna allow people to question them, or if they don't provide an answer, then they feel insecure. Yeah, and that is that's the problem. You know, we're too many clergy are uncomfortable saying, you know what, I'm not sure. Let's figure it out together. Because you know what? God is complex and God is beyond our understanding and we don't know. That's my word. So it's that it's that insecurity, you know, and and and when you have, especially the black church that's been the hub of power within the community for so long, or you know, influence they used to have, um, you get a lot of people in there that are like, well, this is the only space I have some sense of identity and power and control. And I'm more interested in preserving that than actually serving the betterment and the spiritual and you know, actual benefit of my community. And again, that is it's so disheartening. It's so disheartening when when I see it because it is holding us back, and not us, and I'm literally just talking about black Christians now, it is holding us back, holding on to this respectability, pop politics, pacified Christianity. Um, and it is it it because that's not I mean, that's Jesus was revolutionary, Jesus' mom is revolutionary, and if we actually tried to practice a religion of Jesus, things would be happening a lot, things would be very, very different in our in our church. Um, I know John, I I know you wanted to say a few things, so then No, that's all right.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

I I want to ask you a question, Christopher, but I want to respond. It's a bit of an aside, LeBron. I've I came to a conclusion years ago that what Christianity needs is to be more Jewish, and it's everything you just said, because the word Israel literally means he wrestles with God. Wow, I didn't know that. Israel. So it was Jacob, and he had a dream where he wrestled an angel, and he refused to let the angel go. He said, I will not let you go until you bless me. And then he renamed Jacob Israel, and that's the that's the the definition. The line I'm a language guy, I'm a word guy. You know, that's the idea of Jewishness, it's cultural and it's religious, it's so many different things. You can't it's not one thing, but the one thing you can't deny is that that the Jewish way is wrestling, wrestling, wrestling. And you mentioned earlier, Christopher, about humility. What I have one of the reasons why I don't call myself a Christian anymore is I I run away from anyone that's so certain. I I just know exactly. This is exactly I'm like, you got no curiosity, no humility, no sense of humor, you're too serious, you're too certain. Everything's wrapped up in a nice little bow. It's like, hey, you know what? We're gonna, we're gonna argue, we're gonna wrestle, we're gonna, we're gonna turn this thing a little bit and see how the light shines through it in a different way. And Christianity, it's almost like the teenage religion. Like it hasn't quite grown up yet. You know, it's just going through insecurity.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

What's that? Aren't you seeding the ground? If you I hear what you're saying and I understand it, but and we've had this conversation before. If you give up something, right? You said you don't call yourself a Christian, and that may be a belief conversation. But to say that you don't call yourself a Christian because there are people who call themselves Christians and are too certain or are too tied up in the codification or too tied up in the the maintenance of power, like I think that's part of what we're all doing, honestly, in not owning those labels and saying, I am a Christian and I don't know. Right. That conversation that that Dr. Carter was just having uh a moment ago about insecure clergy reminded me of insecure educators, first, second, third year teachers, who when a child says, but this doesn't make sense, say, but I told you that's what it is. Now go to the page 32. They are unable to acknowledge the fact that as humans being, we are having a similar experience. And I may not know, right? I've been teaching 147 years at this point.

SPEAKER_06 40:44

That's no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Heedless. And as I hold off right the beginning of school until after Labor Day, I know that I will have children ask me questions to which the answer is, I don't know. How to how can we find out? I'm not sure. What do you think about it? Prove to me that what you're doing is thinking and believe you know, and being in this space. Yeah. I just it it saddens me a little bit when you say that you don't call yourself that because of those other reasons. If you don't call yourself that because that's not what you believe.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't draw a straight line between those two things. I'm saying that that certainty that I craved as a young man, I don't crave anymore. I crave the mystery. Okay, I hear that. I hear that. And and I want to bring it back to you, Christopher, because you said something. I was reading one of your articles today where you said the cheapening of certain lives for the benefit of those elite few in power. Oh, you know, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:41

Where I need to address, I don't even go to church. I don't even believe in religion. But brother Carter. You've got a new one. I'm gonna wear my shiny shoes in your church.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Matt Leather 1991 step show, shiny shoes. I'm ready. Micro shorts, you then you're in, man. I find it very disturbing that Christianity in America specifically ends up being the superstition. And it it embodies the same superstition that European colonizers accused natives of having. Look at you doing that rain dance. Look at you with your medicine. You're a savage. You think you're gonna dance around this fire and call down the rain, and yet then Christians go and go, you know what, you better go to church on Sunday, or God's not gonna bless you. You better pray this way, or you know, oh, you know, the reason why the earthquake happened, it's because of the gays. Like, that's all superstition. And they believe it. That's what's so funny. That's straight superstition. You really want to boil and go back to you, Christopher. Like, you're you're you're putting God in that box, you're gonna say the tornado happened because of sodomy, sodom, sodomy or whatever. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And so, Christopher, what I want to know is when you say decolonizing the gospel, I have an idea what that means, and and being familiar with your work now, it's it's a theme of a lot when you're talking about food systems, decolonizing those, a lot about the language you use. How do you, as a pastor in Westwood, what does that look like practically? How do you lead your ministry in a way that is trying to decolonize the gospel? What do you do? What do you say?

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Man, that's such a great question. I think so there's and to an extent, I think it kind of gets at one thing I wanted to say for your um some of the in terms of reflecting on the comment you made. You know, I think there's this expression that um doubt is not the opposite of faith, certainty is. And I think that for me is like fire. That's the problem. So when you see people that are really certain, they really lack faith because faith requires belief in rec in awareness of mystery, right? I mean, just fundamentally. Yeah, um, and I think an inability for many evangelicals, especially in our current era, Um they they lack um faith and they prefer to believe in magic and superstition because it gives them a degree of certainty and control.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

And and that is an immature faith. And you mentioned this, right? You said, you know, no, no, it's Antonio, you're talking about like we're in the teenage years. It is. It is a there's a uh a podcast, and I know we'll get to that at some point, but so the podcast that we have out of my congregation called the Progressive Christians Podcast. One of the episodes we did that was one of our most downloaded episodes is called about the stages of faith. And it's just about maturity. And you have so many people who are in arrested development, they are stuck at like a teenage level of spiritual growth, right? And and we see this. I mean, you can look at spiritually, but we we also know some outside of spirituality, some grown people who suck like kids, right? I mean, this is the exactly. I mean, it's the same thing, like you know, where they're we are holding on to believe we have not yet had to use Jesus' language, we are starting to put new wine in old wineskin, like it's not gonna work. You gotta recognize, you gotta let some of those old beliefs and practices go. You gotta grow up, right? And it's this fear, it's this addiction to our egos and our identity and our power, and this has to stay the same. And I'm so afraid if it changes, what's it gonna mean? Rather than recognizing when you lean into the fact and accept that we don't have control over things, it opens you up to mystery, opens you up to transformation, opens you up to love, quite honestly, in a different way that you haven't experienced before. And so I think when it comes to decolonizing, it's helping people understand the power that's available in those attributes that I just said. It's recognizing that, as I understand it, when I talk about colonialism, I'm really talking about systems of uh power that have been or systems of thought that have been used to exercise power over bodies and the planet in ways that have done harm. And so it's about undoing, we might call it coloniality, which is just basically a way of thinking that's you know, colonial. So you're talking about economic, um, political, and ideological. How might I take and pull away those aspects of Christianity that have been used to justify economic oppression, that's been used to justify political oppression, and that's been used to justify the ideas that say people that look like me, LeBron, and Antonio are less human or not human at all, right? And so it's revealing to people those aspects that are how people have misused those ideas within Christianity, and also going back and saying, well, this is what we can look at what Jesus was doing as a clon colonized subject and how was he resisting empire, right? So my whole sermon series for Easter this year was about getting back to sort of my core aspects of who Jesus was and what he was saying. I have a I had a sermon on Jesus as a mystic that just blew people's minds, but there's so much in there that I mean, dudes in the you can't go in the desert and be like, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna fast. You know what I'm saying? Like there's stuff happening. It's pretty much.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

How do people respond to that? How did how do I know Jimmy White guy in Westwood coming to your service, got his Starbucks cup in his hand, they dropped off their kids in childcare. Wow, that's that's pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

That's pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

That's what I'm saying. Like, they're like, oh, we've got such a delightful pastor. He's he's so smart, he's got his PhD. And they're just sipping their latte. Did they any of them do a spit take? You said that like wait, what? You said, what?

SPEAKER_00 47:41

I think what's what's interesting about the lobters, they're pretty educated. And so that one didn't saying Jesus was a mystic. I think once I explained to them what that means, is really what I'm getting at is Jesus understood the lines between us and the sacred in religious studies. Or in LeBron class, you had religion, the philosophy of religion or um a study of religion, they would call it but the profane of the sacred. Like Jesus understood that these lines are just blurry, like they're so blurry. Like we try to have these fixed lines between us and God. And I'm like, that's why what I think I love about Judaism is it teaches that like God is in us, there's a part of God that's in us, and when we can sense that, right? What Howard Thurman would call the sound of the genuine, right? That thing within us that's genuinely used, right? We connect that soul, and you know it. And you know it. And John, I know to me this is so musical. This is so musical. Oh, because when when you like because when you feel it feels like an like when you connect with someone on that deep level, that's that that that bursting joy, that musical, that orchestra that we feel. And and and so I think that to me, when I'm talking about mysticism, it's connecting with that. That was fine. When I start critiquing what really unsettles them, capitalism, capitalism. Oh don't mess with my money.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

We can talk about God how you want to stay out of my pocket, but don't come for my pyramid scheme.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

LeBron said that keep your hands out of my pockets. Get your hands out of my pockets. Oh, sorry, that was that was not a mess. Um, but it it if I can paraphrase your answer to John's question, how do you speak in Westwood the truths that make me turn around and everybody here is going is you're speaking actions to faith and not a codification that is religion. Like people mistake mistake their religion for their faith. And so all of those rules that they keep up are the things that they believe in, right? You you you both, John and Dr. Carter, you you called it uh an immaturity. And I I I guess I might call it my I would call it they're mistaking their religion for their faith. The things they believe in are the things that indoctrination that LeBron talked about, and not an actual belief in the divine, the belief in those things unseen. Yeah, and you know, and so well, I was just gonna finish this thought. Is what I heard you say, Dr. Carter, is that you're talking about a what did he do? Because he didn't talk about what he believed in in terms of Jesus. He said, Do these things, treat people these ways. And if you were following the example of that, that's what you would be doing, as opposed to we're against gay people. Like that's that's an abomination in somebody's Bible, in one of the versions, in one of the edits, in one of the cuts that got added in or mistranslated because every translation is an act of speak on it. Oh, hey Babbel, I see you babbel. You see me, Babbel. RF clan, you know. We could throw those things in there. We read books.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

Uh-huh. There's the nursery coming out that you promised you, Chris. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

It's just I'm I'm stuck on the belief in things unseen and the trappings that people put on it to make themselves feel better.

SPEAKER_05 51:20

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

And and that's what I heard you say, right? And when you say that capitalism is right, because of course capitalism works because that's the the status that we're in, unless you don't have any capital to ism. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_06 51:34

Well, then you pray.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

A lot of them don't really have capital.

SPEAKER_05 51:41

They just actually think they do, but a lot of them don't. And that's my whole thing with with the Christianity, is that I see it paralyzing black people. Like we don't take action. We're like, well, God will make a way. I said, no, put your pants on, open the door, you will find a way, and God will support that. So how it's paralyzing our people, but then when I look at the Jewish faith, again, like we were saying, they're action-oriented, they're always questioning what they can do. And then we said that, you know, Antonio was saying, like, we're in this infancy of Christianity. So as a mathematician, I said, let's let's quantify religion. So Homo sapiens have been around for about 300,000 years. So if we said that 300,000 years was one day 24 hours, Judaism has been around for 23 minutes out of a 24-hour day. And Christianity has only been around for 11 and a half minutes. So when you put things in proper perspective, which we rarely do, like it's all brand new. It's all new. This is like it's a brand new pair of Jordans. We're trying them on, trying to see if they fit. And so if we look at it in that context, I think we'll be better understand and give each other some grace. Like, sure, it was one way and then it's been colonized, then we're gonna have to decolonize. We're talking about three seconds worth of work here. I mean, in our terms, it's years and years, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not that long. So I was just trying to give some context. And then, Dr. Carter, since you are a doctor and I'm not, I created a new term that I would like to give you, and then I'll let you doctify it. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Drum roll, please.

SPEAKER_05 53:30

It's two terms. Here's two terms. We know about LeBron's life, man. This one is called internalized oppressive deification, otherwise known as theocolonial identification syndrome. This is a condition that arises when an oppressed group internalizes the religious imagery, values, or deity representations of their oppressors, often as a survival mechanism, cultural assimilation, or subconscious Stockholm syndrome-like attachment to dominate to dominant power and structures. Yes, the term is called internalized oppressive deification or theocolonial identification syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

No, I I think first of all, I'll actually I I will, especially the first one. I'm like internalized oppressive deification, that actually makes a lot of sense, I think, with respect to um the ways in which I think people of color, oppressed people in general, do often internalize the colonial master, if you will, or the slave master as a kind of god, right? I think that is a psychological tool. I want to point you out to a book by this uh this man, unfortunately, died way too young, but really I would say he's the father of decolonial thinking is his name's France Fanon.

SPEAKER_05 55:02

Oh my god. Uh yeah, reading it right now.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Wretched of the earth. Yeah, and so wretched of the earth, and but particularly black skinned white masks. He does such a good job of helping understand the psychology of what racism does to both black people, to both black people. And to both. Because it it yeah, because it messes up. Say his name again, please. France Franz Fun Fanon. Um, he was a uh French or Martinique Caribbean black um uh scholar, uh psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

F-R-A-N-Z, F-A-N-O-N.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Yep, yeah, yeah. And I think the challenge we have as all people of faith, but particularly uh people who come from marginalized and oppressed communities, and this goes for for Judaism too, because again, you have a faith. I know LeBron, you named how there's this constant questioning, but I think we can look at what's happening in in Gaza right now and really see what happens when you're unable to do that internalized work and you become what you hate.

SPEAKER_06 56:03

There you go. You become what you hate. Become what you hate. And and and I think when are we gonna become what we hate? They even beat us to that point.

SPEAKER_05 56:14

We did 500 years. Y'all did what a decade, maybe about when we gonna okay, black people who are new African Americans get my last motherfatherman. Nerve. Okay, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Go ahead, Dr. Gord. This is the part I was gonna say, though, too, is I don't I think LeBron, you're putting a lot on Christianity when some of this is is dealing with the trauma of enslavement and fear. Yes, and I don't know that I think people, yeah, and I think that's what it is. I think I think people use Christianity as a crutch to not deal with those traumas. And so one of the things that, and this is a slight pivot, but then John, I want to get back to um you because I know you have a few other questions, but but I think this gets to um so the first article that you mentioned that published in the Bloomsbury Handbook, the one that's um the racist, racial, and religious adventures, environmentalism. I got the idea for that that essay because my my little brother was living with us at the time in Claremont. So I went to my PhD, and he was I I was helping start and run a garden club at his school. And I went and talked to some of the other boys that were in the try to get some boys in school to join the club because mostly just white women, as you might expect in this garden club, right? And um they didn't want to join, it was mostly men of color. And one of the black kids said, What are you trying to do? Make me a slave. And that really hit me as someone who spent time in the summer with my grandparents, picking my grandpa, who at his at his core wanted to be a farmer. Like that's what he would have wanted to do if he could have had a choose choose his vocation. But you know, Jim Crow didn't really allow that to happen. And so, and I I wrote that in my essay, and I asked this kid, I was like, you know, he's like third generation Californian, and so he's fourth four generations removed from slavery, but the idea of working in a garden brought that up, you know what I'm saying? Brought that up in the DNA, so that that's what I'm saying. I mean, it's deep, it's deep, and so many of us and our families have not done the healing work, and I'm talking about deep healing of like you know, of honestly. I I part of the reason I do environmentalism is I say we got it. Some of it is getting back in the dirt, and some of it is really learning to love yourself as a black person, and this is where you talk about the deification part. Like, I don't think I fully understood what it meant to love myself and love my blackness until I was in my 30s. And that, and and that's I mean, I'm you know, that sucks to admit, but that's just the truth. You know, that's just the truth because you have so many internalized narratives that tell you something about you is wrong. Something about you is not wrong. Everything that you see tells you that something about you is not wrong. And it's not until I was in school, literally reading France Fanon's Wretched of the Earth, when I came across this term. He talks about colonized intellectual. And I was just like, that's what they're doing to me. I was like, I was like, this is this, because something in me was like, this don't feel right, this don't feel right. I'm like, oh, the psychologist is I'm they're teaching me to hate myself. There it is. Now that I know that I know how to read this in a way that I'm not going to buy into that narrative and I see the lies. And once you see the lie, you can't unsee it. You see it everywhere. You you can you can't unsee it. And so it it it's and and and and so many people don't have the benefit of doing that work, you know. I mean, my mom barely graduated high school, you know what I'm saying? I mean, and that and like and and isn't necessarily interested in doing the kind of soul work that I'm that we're talking about, you know. And this again, we get back to capitalism, like like making folks work like literal slaves, you know what I'm saying? There's a reason why when Moses gets to 10 commandments, there's a day we're supposed to have a day of rest and reflection, and capitalism doesn't allow for that. That's when you have an opportunity for for actual spiritual growth, yeah, right, and actual reflection. And so, LeBron, like you've named some things that I've just been like, man, it it really is we have not had the benefit of dealing with the traumas of of enslavement, and and we see an impact in white people, and we see an impact in white people. And you know what?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:31

Imagine, because you you really resonate with me now in terms of the dealing with the traumas. Like, imagine if African Americans were allowed, I don't know, say if America said, I don't know, we'll give you a state, and all you black people, this is now your state, and we'll give you $10 billion a year and a military to protect yourself so that you can heal from your trauma. I'm just wondering, wouldn't that be a great thing? I've never heard of that before. I'm but that's a concept we should explore.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Okay, why don't you listen to episode eight and while you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:06

Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at threeforthefounders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok, or send us a text through Buzz Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left on Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

That's why it's my favorite punctuation where everybody uses it. Nobody knows what it's called. Got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

And LeBron, that's why that's why it's not mine, because I can never use that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

That is true. Well, you that's not true. Go ahead and say it. No, no, no. Nope. Trigger what?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:15

My trigger.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Oh god.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

Dude, we're we're opening up the kimono all the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

Can I ask you a question? You said that about Billy Joe, and I didn't understand where the kimono came from.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Where why are we opening kimonos?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

It's a sign. I heard it first in business. Actually, I heard it in a business meeting about six or seven years ago. Kimono being the symbol of propriety. I'm I'm covering up, but I'm opening it up for you. I'm being vulnerable. I'm showing you what's inside. It's sexual, but it's also intimate. It's really probably the better. Yeah, it's symbolic. I think it's intimate. I think you meant it. It's a choice of vulnerability. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:53

So, Christopher, I I've I've got to hear your favorite uh is it punctuation.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

You know what? That was a I think honestly, as a academic, it's probably the hyphen because we just elongate sentences all the time. We have so much to say. We're just like we get to the end, like it should be a peer. Like, no, I have hyphen here. Now another sentence here just makes you all the details of all the stuff that I only I really need to say. I love it. So yeah, it's pretty ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

I love it.