Ep. 16 - The Gospel According to Power (Part 2)

🎙️ Episode 16 — The Gospel According to Power (Part 2)
📅 Airdate: Tuesday, September 2nd, 2025

Okay, friends—in this second of two parts, this is the one you cannot miss. Episode 16 of Three for the Founders isn’t just the next chapter… it’s the first time they’re bringing in a guest. And not just any guest—Dr. Christopher Carter. Yes, that Dr. Carter—scholar, pastor, and truth-teller whose work bridges faith, race, ethics, and the real-life consequences of what we preach.

This conversation? It’s electric. The kind that makes you want to hit pause just to say “Wait, did they really just go there?” They unpack what happens when pastors turn pulpits into pedestals, why charisma without accountability is dangerous, and how history keeps repeating itself when we don’t interrogate our theology.

💭 Questions for you to think about while you listen:

• Have I confused a leader’s authority with divine authority?
• How has my church’s history shaped the way I read scripture today?
• Who benefits when we don’t ask questions?

📌 Action Items / Takeaways:

• Listen with both your faith and your skepticism engaged.
• Look up one historical example mentioned in the episode and dig deeper.
• Start one uncomfortable but necessary conversation this week—with your small group, your family, or that friend who “just doesn’t like politics in church.”

I’ll be listening with my journal open, coffee hot, and my text thread ready—because this is the kind of episode you’re going to want to discuss immediately.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

It says, hey, we invited somebody. We had a great conversation. It was a long one, so we broke it into two. And that'll be at the beginning. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Oh, oh! Speaking of speaking of speak of the doctor and the doctor shall appear. The black Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Yes. Speaking of the devil. Nope. Nope. Nope. We don't talk about the devil today, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

At least not in this episode.

SPEAKER_07 0:34

I predict I like our chances, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

We're brothers. We're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Give me a few. Alright, cut and print. Beautiful guys. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years. And now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

So I sat with Billy Jones. Well, let me say, while we're waiting for Dr. Carter, um, I had a couple of people uh I wanted to shout out the same internationally award-winning poet, uh Louis Vett Resto. Woo! Louis Vet, what's up? Uh, you know, she's uh she's always listening and giving us some feedback. And sorry, my man Billy Jones, I was meeting with today, uh eating with today, and and we talked about the pod. But um, those were the two people I wanted to kick in, friends of the pod. Yes. I know you all had people that you wanted to contribute as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

I want to shout out to my former student, David Wallace, taught him at uh Price Price School, uh, which was a Christian school. So I taught first in a Christian school, my first three years in the classroom, and David was my first student, so he really taught me how to teach. So shout out to my price students and David Wallace.

SPEAKER_07 2:10

Yes. I got a shout out, I got a few. Mike Allen up in Washington State, Mahome from back at UCLA, attorney, give some good feedback, is a new friend of the podcast. So, Mike, thank you so much for joining us, man. I respect you tremendously. You know how I feel about you. Sonia Berganiel, one of the very first people to comment about our podcast and talk about your lineage and your heritage and how the podcast helped you have conversations with your family. Sonia, we see you. We appreciate you very, very much. Andrea Nawoke, the Nigerian princess from New York. Woo! Andrea Folk Boys Consulting. Oh, yeah, she'll mix it up. She'll mix it up.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

She's been jumping on.

SPEAKER_07 2:47

So, Andrea, thank you so much. And of course, my friend Jay, Jay Wirth, through whom I met Dr. Christopher Carter. We appreciate you very much, Jay. I'll see you on the water soon. Oh. Give me one. Sounds good, though. I'm still in awe of your your microphone setup like the He's got a boom. We've got the boom. That's the next level. We get the boom. So the so it's a good thing. We're babies in the podcast world. We want to grow.

SPEAKER_05 3:12

One day we're gonna be like you, Christopher, when we grow up.

SPEAKER_07 3:15

We we tell we tell Antonio, hands up, don't mute. Because he always hits the desk like that. He's like, man, in 1863, during the Reclamation Act of 1863, like, bro, hands up, don't mute.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Oh man. Guilty as well. It takes a while to get used to like knowing what to do with your hand, or like to realize that they can hear everything. You know, it takes a lot to get used to it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Ronaldo Antonio Messias. Nice to meet you, Doctor. Yes. Hey, Dr.

SPEAKER_05 3:48

Carter, this is LeBron James. Not the King James, but uh the Math James.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Malcolm X Square.

SPEAKER_05 3:55

Malcolm X Square, baby. I saw for X.

SPEAKER_07 4:01

So LeBron, tell him, show him the book you were just showing us. I want to see this reaction.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

I was reading your article that you sent, and I'm like, I've never heard another brother talk like this or come from this. I said, it reminds me of this book I'm studying called Uguru. Oh, okay. Yes. Have you seen this one?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

I think is let me see the subtitle, an African uh centered critique of European cultural thought and behavior. Who is it written by? You've got to. Oh my gosh. All right, let me look it up.

SPEAKER_05 4:34

You don't understand everything you're saying. This book is so dense, I can only get through the first two chapters. But you synthesize it in such an amazing way. I thought, oh my, oh my gosh, someone who actually put this in the language that the common man could understand. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

No, I think that's one of the challenges of academic writing. And I mean, it's I would say like you when you really understand something is when you can explain it simply. Yes, thank you. And that's hard. Very different. Man. So anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

When your voice came on, you I was like, man, we just edited Johnny Gill, a new edition. Remember when that happened? Yes.

SPEAKER_07 5:18

What was the first hit? Once Johnny Gill came, it was Can't You Stand the Rain? Oh, Sonny.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Oh man.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

Everybody loves them. Tell me. Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I don't know any of these dances.

SPEAKER_07 5:37

Oh God. This is too much. Welcome. Christmas gonna leave in like the next 12 minutes. Actually, my son does need my help.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I'm not surprised at all. Oh good. This is what it's like recording. Yeah. LeBron, I I I um you definitely said you sound the things you're saying are things I remember that I I really had to wrestle with through the coursework phase of my PhD. Like I like I what and that's why you're I know we've probably I've talked a bit more of some of the stuff you said, but I think because I personally have wrestled with some, I'm like, yeah, I I remember that. I remember feeling that exact same way and had to had to figure it out. I mean, I just in and honestly, I think, you know, for me growing up like poor and food insecure and in a strange way helped me have the degree of faith that I have because it doesn't like where I'm at in my life doesn't really make sense in any kind of like actual, like logical, you know, like you know, again, grandfather wanted to be a farmer, mom barely graduated high school, dad is a um excuse me, excuse me, John. My dad was a musician that didn't really do much with his life.

SPEAKER_07 7:07

A plate with which I am very familiar.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

You all look crazy, and so like, and yet, you know, I ended up getting a Full Ride scholarship to get two master's degrees and a PhD, and that's insane.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Um go ahead, not to cut you up, but I gotta share this quick because you can all relate to this. Here's my trick bag about religion, not about spirituality, not about God, but it's probably the way, in my experience, the way black people interpret Christianity. So because you came from where you came from and where you are now makes no logical sense. So then when black people achieve things and we can't figure out why, we just give it to God. God did it. It had to just be God. It couldn't be, you know, I was I'm actually smart enough, and I was at the right place at the right time, and then this happened, and someone saw something in me, and then this so we go to a spiritual thing with nothing. But when I talk to my students, my white students, my Jewish students, they'll say, Yeah, my uncle so-and-so gave me this internship, and then I went to this school, and then I had so-and-so write me this letter of recommendation, and so they have like a logical path, and they don't ascribe it to religion.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

So we never took a path is something that they were shown, like they don't just make that up, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, uh yeah, but I mean, I also I think I think Lebar, I think two things can be true. I think that so for me, I would say it is first of all, I don't believe in a God that's coercive, right? By that I mean I don't believe a God that's like I'm gonna take this mountain and move it over here, I'm gonna do this. And I mean, that's not that's not God. If you believe, if you believe in a God of love, love is always invitational. Yes, love is never coercive. Like love is always inviting you, it's always invite, it's always pulling you, it's always luring you towards something. And so it should always be you and God. And so I look at what I've done in my life and I see, yeah, I, you know, I busted my behind. I did a lot to get where I'm at, but I also know that there were some times I made decisions that it just was a gut, this is what I feel like I should do. That's where I'm like, this is this is where I can see spirit, this is where I can see God, this where I can see a sacred giving, like prompting me, but it was still me doing the thing and the work. It's to me, it's always at it, it's it's both because when you feel like it's just you, and that's when you make yourself God. And that's false. Yep. That never ends well. I mean, we got somebody in the White House who literally believes. I mean, you listen to what he says, I I can't get over the fact this man says, like, I can't think of I ever made a mistake. Oh, God. You know, like it just it just drives me, and what no, it drives me even what makes it even worse is that you have white Christians can vote for him when this man says, I've never asked God for forgiveness. And so this is how I could so I can see how black people be like, you know what, if that's Christianity, I'm good. Like, I'm good. I'm good in that one. That doesn't resonate when you have white evangelical Christians then turn around and say, That's who I think should be our leader, because they're voting for power, they're not voting on actual values, because they have made God, they've made themselves God, they've made their version of Christianity an idol that ought to be worshipped. Like within their framework, I'm not a Christian, you know, like within their framework, I am not a Christian, and that is insane to me, but that's how they understand it. And so this is how you get to that the premise of this conversation that we're having with respect to religion and race, is it really boils down to for so many of them of using like white supremacy for them is the codification of power for them to use religion in a way to maintain that power. You know, that's that's really what it's about. They don't and I'm not on here to say, oh, these people aren't Christian, because that's what they they that's what they want to call themselves, that's what they are. But what they worship, the idol they worship is power, that they worship is whiteness or their white bodies. Um, it's not the God that I see revealed to me in the Bible. Uh and and that is um, it almost hurts to say it, but I think that's just it shouldn't, but it does because there's a part of me that's a pastor that wants to help these people. I mean, I'm not, you know, I do like I genuinely I'm like, there has to be a better way. And it doesn't make and this is not a plight I wish upon many people to feel how I feel.

SPEAKER_07 12:09

What is but what is the what is it a is it a cognitive dissonance? Is it a frustration? Is it a fear? What what is it you feel?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

It is I mean, it's it's hope. I I it is what I feel is hope that that we can get through this stage of disorder to a reorder that actually is something that is beautiful, that is loving, that is um transformative, and can be so much better for our children than what we have right now. Because what we all experiencing and what what John you called deconstruction and LeBron, which you've mentioned multiple times in the ways which you've talked about wrestling with religion, is we're all going through this stage of faith right now where we if where things feel like it's falling apart, like the world feels like it's falling apart. Um, and again, to go back to you know Christianity or religion as such, in my experience, I would argue that we go through these three phases over and over again of order, disorder, and reorder. You know, like things make sense. I have structure, I have rules. And LeBron or Antonio, you mentioned this when you talked about, like, I'm thinking about the way you talked about Christianity as a teenager, right? When you when you are at a teenager phase, you're in the phase of disorder. You're trying to like, I'm trying to make my own rules. I don't, I don't know my parents. I'm like, you know, this is me. I know I know I'm talking about you, you you think you're so smart. You are in this phase of disorder when things feel chaotic. And the way black people have responded to this chaos by Christians is to kind of some ways be reactive in terms of saying, I'm gonna be deeply spiritual and not really um and give God the praise for everything and not think I'm doing anything, or to leave religion altogether. But it's a reactive rather than an active sponsor. And the way some white people are responding by saying, I need to make sure I keep and maintain the power that I have because I'm afraid of what's gonna happen uh if if I don't have this stuff. And it's actually recognizing that the only way through this is together. The only way through this is to imagine an alternative that's actually better for all of us because those people who are in power are imagining maintaining the systems that we have right now, right? They are imagining a kind of extractive capitalism that allows billionaires to continue to exploit all of us on this call right now. That's what they're imagining, and they're telling us that's all that's real. And what we have to do is to say, actually, no, there is an alternative. And we have to believe in the truth of that and actually go towards that. And so the weight I feel is the weight of hope of saying, no, trust me, listen to me. We could do that thing, right? You know, and and some folks, it's almost better to just be like cynical and be like, eh, whatever, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna take care of me. Um, I can't do that because I love us too much to do that. Like, I genuinely hurt when I see unhoused people. I genuinely poverty. When I was just in South Africa, you see a lot of stuff. Like, I hurt. I it's the last thing I'll say, then I'll stop talking because I've been preaching for the last four minutes. I preach on and then pass the plate when you're done.

SPEAKER_07 15:38

This counts as church. I can skip church on Sundays. I'm getting all kinds of credits for this one. That's right, LeBron. You can miss church for two months now.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

You can actually. I think I still got I let's talk about superstition.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I have cried more preaching in the last year than I have ever. I think because there's this way in which my grief is what has allowed me to see the people who even cause suffering as full human beings in need of repair.

SPEAKER_07 16:15

That's hard. The ones who are causing it, it's hard to see them like that. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I'm not there yet. Yeah, yeah, it and it, and I don't expect, and every not everybody actually even gets there, to be honest with you. I don't know that it needs everybody to get there, but it's enough people to feel, to not be so numb to suffering, but to genuinely feel. And if we take the time to do that, I think we can be moved to a space of ideally hopefully holding the people in power accountable, and that's where we continually have failed, is on the level of accountability.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

Um so but it's and LeBron will pray for you for a lot of reasons because and I say that because um you pointed out, and I think you pointed out that religion is a system and racism is a system, and they both um at this moment in this time are working to support and maintain white body supremacy, if I can use Dr. Carter's words. Love that. And so you've also said that part of our conversation and part of the purposes of what we do is to illuminate those dark places, to give somebody a different story, to recalibrate the myths and strip away that which has been codified in our national conversation, right? And so I think that in each way we're all working towards those things. This conversation that we've been having, and I I walked out on our little break, and my wife was like, How's it going? I was like, Dr. Carter's making us all sound smart.

SPEAKER_07 18:10

Um or dumb by comparison, but that that's like you say no, uh a rising tide.

SPEAKER_05 18:18

I'm not the dumbest person in the room, I'm in the wrong room.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Okay, we can argue about it later.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

Okay, hold on. Um leave my white privilege alone, John. It's a shirt I put on and take off.

SPEAKER_07 18:34

I'm protecting your white body, LeBron. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Um but I'm I'm I want I don't want to say struggling with my faith. I struggle with the need for religion as a system. And and I'm I'm back to hold on, internalized oppressive deification. There it is. Because I think you've given language to what we watch many people do, right? We've talked about um, you know, you talked about those revolutionary preachers in or revolutionary people of faith in Latin America, but there are also thousands of people who, you know, succumb to that maintenance of power or their own self-interests or the codification of religion and act on that as opposed to acting on faith. Um and so I bring it right the original question is God racist? No, but their fan clubs are well stated because each group has appropriated what they claim to be values and codified them, and then acted upon them and pushed them out, right? So Malcolm said, and I've said it before the most segregated hour in American life is 11 o'clock on Sundays because we can't worship together, and so how do we and I understand that you're doing it, but how do we tell those stories so that people actually hear the message as opposed to tell those stories so people memorize the words?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I think that's such a great question, and I and I think distinguishing between, you know, again, you know, when the prophets and when Jesus say, like, you know, let those with ears hear, and everybody can actually hear what they're saying, but he's talking about like actually, are you like feeling me? It's basically what Jesus is saying.

SPEAKER_07 21:05

He's like, Are you basically Jesus saying, you feel me?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, look scripture.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Jesus said, carry on. You feel me?

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Exactly. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

They make it give them some clothes. You know what I'm saying? Feel me?

SPEAKER_07 21:28

Ain't that the um, what's that your term? The yeah, what's the the question mark in the interobang?

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Yes, feel me. Enterobang, Jesus. Enterobang.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

I don't know if we want to say that about Jesus. I don't know if we want to say that. Okay, it's punctuation.

SPEAKER_07 21:46

It's punctuation.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

No, I I think that that for me is it's it's one of the what you just identified, Antonio, I think is uh We within and now I'm really gonna talk about just Christians, not just black Christians, but Christians in general. We have such immature language around sin. And I think that is where we are right now. And this is where I would think our Jewish siblings are much better at this, uh, in terms of how they talk about uh because for them, sin is much more about failure to do when they talk about making a mistake or doing something wrong theologically, it's failure to do something to follow a principle to fail is your tent. It's something around that. Um and I think within Christianity, too often we've can we've gotten to this place of belief where we're like, oh, it's because you don't believe these certain things, you're behaving in sinful ways. When Jesus is talking about sins, sin for Jesus in the Gospels is failing to bother to love. Ooh. Simple. I can buy that one. And it be and just when you think about when Jesus is talking about the Good Samaritan and he's critiquing um the people who actually pass by the body for not doing anything, they're people who know what they're supposed to do. It's a priest and a Levite.

SPEAKER_07 23:12

These are religious leaders, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

And they're stepping by because they're worried about purity, they're worried about purity culture, they're worried about the respectability politics. They don't want to do something that's going to contaminate them. And what Jesus says by actually picking up this person and and and you know, contaminating themselves, quote unquote, it's not that that you're actually you're not defaming or you're not um contaminating yourself by touching someone who may be dead, because that's what that actually that story is about. In fact, it actually goes the other way. Like, like my love is actually healing, helping to heal this person. It is actually making them like a better person rather than them making me this evil person. It's the opposite. Jesus literally saying the purity codes, the separateness, all the stuff that we have, that's actually, we've gotten it fundamentally wrong. It's not about washing our hands all this time, it's not about not, you know, eating with tax collectors and sinners. Actually, no, when we are with them, we actually become closer to God. We are actually helping them and they are helping us, right? Through the exchange of love. And when we fail to do this, when we fail to cultivate those relationships across different, when we fail to expand the table, so to speak, of who actually has access in our religious framework to God, what we are doing is ultimately sinning against ourselves. And I think when I talk about sin as failure to love, it makes to uh it makes a lot more sense, first of all. Yes, I would say it's way more stirring, too.

SPEAKER_07 24:47

It's more stirring.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

And and and I think it gets to some of the challenges that you're talking about, Antonio, about how people practice this kind of performative religion, you know, is because they're focused on rules and not focused on the ways in which we engage each other. And and I do want to even in the midst of this critique, I also want to acknowledge that there's so many people that even though they do some of the performative stuff, there are so many Christians that I meet that are actually just good people that just they they actually are doing good work and that aren't crazy or they're not even that political. Um is that we have a very vocal segment of people in power, yeah. Unfortunately, that I think dominate so much of the headlines. I've always uh you know, and and because and because they have power, they get the most amount of attention. Um and I don't want to pretend that that's like this tiny minority because it is it is a it is a it's a large minority, but I do believe it is a minority. Um unfortunately it's a very it's a moneyed minority and it's a white minority, and so it has led us to where we are right now. Um I I want to pause here, but I know there's one thing I want to get to before I know we wrap up, and I can get in again, I don't have a heart out, but I would want to say this too. I do want to we've talked a lot about race, and I I've been meaning to do this, I forgot to do this earlier, was to define racism because I do think this actually gets into why I think some of the challenges within uh spaces where people of color end up um harming themselves, I would say actually uh being being um complicit in their own oppression. Um, the way I understand racism, and the way I define racism, um, is it operates really in kind of three separate spheres. You have, and I've kind of mentioned them already, politics, economics, and ideology. And it's really about the distribution of goods. And so if you have so something is racist, for instance, if the economic distribution is unequal, and it can be traced along racial lines. If the political power is unequal, it can be traced along racial lines, or if ideologies have been created to justify those distributions, right? That marginalize a particular particular person of color. So if you think about voting, for instance, the gerrymandering that's taking place right now in the South, because they're getting of the voting rights at clearly racist, right? Clearly, like you know, the the the ways in which you can on a um so that's politics, economics, the way you can set things up so people who don't have time to take off work to vote, even of itself, is in fact racist, right? And then ideologies, you talk about the folks who have created this idea or this assumption these folks don't care about politics or they shouldn't care, or why why do you even want to vote? None of the either party both are gonna do something wrong anyway, so it doesn't matter. And so you have these narratives that encourage black people to not vote, not engage in politics. I think it's those three spheres, when we look at them, they work together to create racist structures, and so that's how we end up with structural racism. It's operating on the level of economics, politics, and ideology, and that it's always those three. And unfortunately, what happens is we tend to get stuck on politics or economics or ideology rather than recognizing the way they're always working together. And I do think this is where King was heading. I think King was on this trajectory, he understood these three spheres work together. And until black people, or to pe I should say people of color, but literally I would say all people just say the global majority. Yeah, there you go. The global majority. We work with the global majority around. Like until they until we understand that when we operate within systems where we don't recognize our own complicit behavior, right, with respect to politics, economics, and ideologies, we never question if what we're doing is actually helping or harming our community. We just we don't question it at all. We're just like, oh, this is what we do. And I'm like, well, like who is this benefiting? Like economically, who's benefiting politically, who's benefiting, like what ideas are are are we uh, you know, aligning ourselves with if we say we practice this thing? And this is that kind of decon decolonization, it's asking those questions and getting into those three spheres can allow us, I believe, to not only practice a kind of religion that actually I think is more liberatory, but for black people or and people of the global majority in general, can actually take some of the power back from the whites. Sorry, John, but take the power back from the white.

SPEAKER_07 29:44

Hey, I am in the global minority, man.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

There's a t-shirt in there.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

That to me is just that is that that is critical. We think we think too much about racism as actions and words rather than systems and structures that actually uphold policies, yeah, policies and ideas and and and and procedures that actually continue to harm people. And it's not to say there aren't racist people, there are, but I think for the most part, we have people who do racist things and we have a handful of racist people. Like I would say.

SPEAKER_05 30:18

I would say I agree. I think only about five percent, five to ten percent of white people, I would think that are racist. It just so happens they have 99% of the money, resources, yeah, and the power.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

I don't know. But I would even say for a mathematician.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

I would I would say I would even say black people though, this is where I think where I get the most pushback is I talk about black folks doing stuff that's actually this is a thing that is racist. I'm not saying you're racist, but this is a thing that up to your perpetual. Exactly. I'm like, where you're operating in a system that's complicit because you haven't stopped to ask yourself, is this something that's good for my people? You know, yes, and and that is, and until we understand we have that power, until we understand, oh, I have the power to make this change, let me do something about it. We're gonna continue this system that we're in. You have your hand up, so I know you want to say something.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Oh no, I this was this was out of frustration. I wasn't doing my usual thing. But like that's my frustration. I can see, you know, politics, economics, and ideology all working together, right? Um, but you have people, so I'll take Target as a Target right now. Super easy. Stay on Target. A lot of people said, Oh, you're gonna cancel your diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. You're not gonna do the LGBTQ, Pride Month, Black History Month's gonna be your last thing. I'm not shopping there anymore. And you have people who say, Yeah, but I need such and such. And that doesn't apply to me. Like this, they didn't take out my one thing. And so this it is a complex idea that racism always works on all three, and one of them takes the price, right? Just like we do on this podcast, the three of us. One of us is talking more than the others. That changes depending on the episode. And we're all three still here. And so people are looking at the politics of like, why do I not shop at Amazon anymore? Right? Because Jeff Bezos is doing stuff with that money that I don't need him to do, whether he's shutting down the Washington Post editorial system, whether he's donating to Trump, whether he's standing next to him, right? So all of those things where people are complicit to your words, and yet how do you change the story? How do you out loud say, I need you to understand these complex things? Because we've been having a two-to-one battle here. I uh I'm about people are simple and people do what feels easiest for them. And so that complexity not only befuddles, but it puts people to sleep, and they're like, Well, I'm just gonna do what's comfortable for me. It's easier if I get that stuff delivered to my doorstep overnight.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Yeah, you know what? It's interesting. I hate to add math to religion because I know to separate church and state. There's a lot of math and religion.

SPEAKER_07 33:07

Don't worry, I'll come after you with something non-mathematical like.

SPEAKER_05 33:37

Which means we welcome you in. Like when the white man came to America, the natives come to dinner. They came to Africa, come to dinner. We're welcoming. White people are afraid that if black people get in power, they're gonna be as evil and uncivilized as we are. That's the fear. But it's a myth because we are forgiving to a fault, which is partly why we're in the mess we're in now. Because we are, we do follow the spirit of forgiveness. But ironically, you know what keeps uh good white people and people of color apart? Religion. My God says, Go this way. Oh, yeah, well, my God said go this way. Oh, yeah, well, my God said we chosen and you ain't. So that is the part I find that's separating us from the common denominator. Because if you remove those three, to me, it'll be easier to find the common denominator, which whether it's spirituality, whether you just call it God. I mean, if you want to put the labels on it, to me, the labels are that barrier that the the people in power are using, they're pulling those strings. You know, divide and conquer is the oldest game in the book. So that that's my concern.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

What's interesting is we got we on this podcast was we're talking about race and religion. And I know multiple times I keep coming back to capitalism, but I'm gonna say it one more time.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

It's the same game.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Because honestly, capitalism is created, or I would argue was created, to create a classification system. I should say racism is created as a way to exploit bodies to the benefit of capitalism. So I'm sure all of y'all probably have heard the term racial capitalism. Yeah. Um but that is it allows the commodification of bodies, as y'all read that I wrote about the delinking of value from a person. And this is how these two things are so intertwined. And so what happens is you have you know the feudal system where white people are working on land and they're like, okay, now if we want to exchange this to we can actually trade market goods rather than having just I've I'm in this, I'm a lord on this land and you work for me. How can this person that's the lord still thinking they got this power and they got this money? How can I exploit these people now? Right? Because now they have more power. Oh, this idea of race can come into play where we can create a new exploitable class of people. And so, and I I told John this earlier, you know, the way race works and how it works to the benefit of poor white people is like you come to America, uh, and you know, when you were you left your your home country, you know, you were German, you were Italian, you were Spanish, you were French, you were Portuguese, and you were connected to your land. Like you're connected to your identity was tied to your land and to your religion, but really to your land. But now you come to America, you have to give your land up. You got to give all that stuff up, and your whole identity is tied to your flesh. That's all you got, right? And so, because that's all you got, you're gonna fight so hard to maintain this because you don't know who you are. You you literally do not know who you are as a white American. You don't know who you are. You're disconnected you fundamentally disconnected from yourself, right? And so you are doing everything you can to maintain a sense of identity because you are afraid because you don't know who you are. And that was done for the benefit of capitalism. Because what this does, it creates a middle class, if you will. We still got the people who are the lords or the kings on top, we now call them billionaires, and they say, Hey, you want to keep that whiteness I gave you? You got to make sure the people down below you, the black ones, they stand out, they stay below you. And so instead of focusing all your energy on the people who got the vast majority of wealth, the 2% of people above you, you spend all your energy punching down over some made-up bull crap. You can say it. Like literally, you know what I'm saying? And it can say it. Say it on a recording. Yeah, it's so frustrating because it's you know, if you just step back, you're right. But there is, we they are oppressed. White people, the regular white person is oppressed within this system of global exploitative capitalism, but they do not they they believe because of their whiteness, because of the lie of whiteness that maybe I could be a millionaire, maybe I could be a billionaire. But in that's a lie.

SPEAKER_07 38:14

Hey, Christopher. But listen, man, I we can draw a straight line. I use that phrase a lot, but it because I'm always trying to connect the dots, and language is my thing and words. There is so much capitalistic language in American Christianity, it's ridiculous. It's one of the things that drove me away from the church. Even you get to, I don't want to get too crazy, but like trans, like substitutionary atonement. Like you you talk about sin, like, hey, guess what? You sinned, you owe God. Someone's gonna have to pay that bill. Guess what? The blood of Jesus is gonna pay that bill. What if you try to explain to a six-year-old using that language about you know atonement and sin and you owe and credit and Jesus paid for it and the blood, like that shit's weird. That's weird. That's capitalism. That's that's like so much capitalistic language in Christianity. And I want to go back to you when you're talking about the Good Samaritan story. I know we call them Good Samaritan, but one of the things that we lose is how freaking subversive Jesus was. Because it's like, Out of time, are you praying to Jesus or are you following Jesus? Because you got this you got the folks educate me, bro.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

Again, wait, wait, John, you haven't said that. Say that for the Negroes in the back. I didn't get that back. You promised you would. So I need you to say that question again.

SPEAKER_07 39:24

Are you praying to Jesus? Are you following Jesus?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Nope, look in the camera.

SPEAKER_07 39:29

Are you praying to Jesus or are you following Jesus? Because you can do either or sometimes. Now, so you got the superstition over here, pray to him. Oh, let me win the football game, let me the stock market, let me make sure that I don't crash my car. Or you got the following Jesus, those who follow Jesus. Now you can do both, obviously. Hopefully, that's the best of both worlds. But the the parable, the good Samaritan, who's the hero? Who did he make the hero of that story? The Samaritan. Who was a Samaritan in Jesus' time?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

This is an unclean, bastard ass person who is not a Jew. They're somebody they're not supposed to associate with. This is someone who part of the global majority.

SPEAKER_07 40:06

This would have been who Trump calls someone from a shithole country who's a writ rapist and a criminal immigrant. Jesus chose to make that the hero of his story. And the the the antagonists of the story were the religious leaders of the time. So this is where I I can get down with Jesus going he was subversive. He was a Palestinian immigrant, Jew, rabbi by some. There you go. Thank you, Captain T-shirt. Yeah. Who was murdered by the state because his message was too subversive. He had to be put to death. He was a threat. Now you compare that to American Christianity that just upholds what is normal. And I got to go back to your article here, Christopher. You quoted Howard Thurman. Listen to this. If the oppression is viewed as normal, then it is correct. If correct, then moral. If moral, then religious. If the oppression is viewed as normal, then it is correct. If correct, then moral. If moral, then religious. The American church, what I see is Americanism in the church, and the most of the church, is just like just upholding what's back to normal, what's white, what's orderly, what's in power. And so normal equals right, equals moral, equals religion. And it's like, man, if Jesus, if you met Jesus today, he would not be showing up at these mega churches going, yes, this is exactly what I had in mind. It would be the opposite. And Christopher, this is Jesus would have got rounded up by ice. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

You mean he's not kicking it with Joel Osteen? No.

SPEAKER_07 41:59

There you go. Watch your mouth, Antonio. And the challenge, Christopher, you said it earlier. The challenge for me is to look at the Joel Osteens, the Trumps. I don't want to put them exactly in the same camp, the Pete Hegseth, the Christy Gnome, and even see them with grace and go, like, how how could I love you? Oh, God. And it's the there's this book, Son of Hamas, is this guy who was who was raised in Palestine, whose dad was a Hamas leader. And he talks about becoming a Christian because loving your enemies was the only thing that made sense to him in Palestine. He's like, I I just don't see how me as a Palestinian and the Jews over here who've just been murdering each other. I don't see any religious way out of this other than love and forgive your enemies. And so in that way, that's following Jesus. That's that's like I'm gonna do what he said to do. And that's hard, man, but it's way better.

SPEAKER_05 42:57

It's way better than propping up this system of Americanism that uh I have a question because I'm not an expert in the word, but you two are. And I keep hearing this common theme that I'm that I've sort of been struggling with, but now I just came to light. There have been billions and millions of people who lived on this earth. How is it that we talk about the betterment of people by one individual? Like if you told me like this country or this nation follow, but to put everything on one individual seems kind of difficult because how do you get millions of people to all follow one person's example?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

That's where I would say I'm not I that that's a that's a great question. And this is where you know, people listen to my podcast, or I wouldn't say this in the center at my church, but they know this because I've had conversations with them. I'm a pluralist, meaning I believe that we have various. Cultural expressions for the sacred. Yes. Like so I use Jesus, you use Allah, use Buddha, whatever. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's all you know, it's not all the same, but it's all this is where religion is actually helpful in the way we talked about distinguishing between religion and faith and belief and those kinds of things. We're trying to give forms to something we've experienced.

SPEAKER_07 44:20

But Christopher, I have to put, I have to interject here because I what you just said is very ballsy. And I mean this. In the world of American Christianity, to actually publicly state and be recorded and to do it on your podcast and to do it in church, say, I am a pluralist, that's the kind of thing that gets you fired in a lot of churches. And I think it's I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

What is a pluralist? That feels like a very religious term.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Pluralist means that I believe, I believe that my religious belief, my Christianity is not the only way to experience or receive salvation. We would call salvation in our tradition. Thank you for that. Oh, you're African. Okay. You don't you don't have to be well that part.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

That part. Like that part.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Um, but I I think that many Christians they look at the couple of verses in the Bible that say you have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven and say, Well, that's all it is. And I'm like, eh, there's a lot more in there. It's an edited volume. You know, that's the other thing. It's not, this is what not is written by one person, just sat down and be like, I mean, not only literally edited, but it's also edited. It's a book of a it's a book of a bunch of books. You know what I'm saying? That weren't written to all be compiled together. We put them together, but was never intended, quote unquote, to be written that way. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

And were written contemporaneously with the events that they describe 1400 years, 1200 years past. You know, they cut some out and then they put some in and exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

And as you talked about translation, all that stuff. No, all that all that matters. And so I guess for me, the reason I don't see it as the reason I don't see it as a bold or ballsy claim, John, is because I believe that God is free.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

I believe my brother.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

And I am I know enough to know what I don't know. And I think that is that kind of humility that I think it's important. And this is actually, I would say I got this from Howard Thurman, is where I first got the reason he got the idea for Jesus and the disinherited on his Howard Thurman was the first, or I he was the first non-Indian person that Gandhi ever met. Did it put Mr. Friendship? It was how it, yeah. The book is called Jesus and the Disinherited. Oh, y'all gotta read that book. Y'all gotta read that book. That's Howard Thurman's classic text. It's it's it's old, it's written in like the 50s. But um, his autobiography, he tells the story of meeting this man in India, and this man did exactly what LeBron is doing. He was like, How are you a black person gonna be a Christian when these British Christians coming over here to India colonizing us? How are you gonna how are you gonna keep their religion? And so they have this this wrestling match, right? Literally, as John said, Israel. They wrestle, and Thurman leaves this space, realizing for him that to stay Christian, what he ultimately calls himself doing is being a follower of the religion of Jesus. And that's what you've talked about, John. Is like, do you follow or do you pre- you know how it founded a church in in um San Francisco that was a pluralist church, he had different kinds of people there that weren't just Christian, that um he said, you know, from his perspective, that you everything is about moving towards a kind of oneness. And and when you understand that, when you see God as one, and we're moving towards and trying to understand that one, um things start, I wouldn't even say fit together as much as things make sense, but you understand that revelation with that we that we have as as Christians is necessarily limited because it came in a certain time in a certain place, just all like all the other ones. And by studying them, you studying the other ones, you learn more about God, and that should enhance your own Christianity. But I'm not, you know, so many people are so insecure, just praise.

SPEAKER_07 48:32

There it is.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yep, they don't want to actually push themselves out to grow. And nothing I learn other religion traditions can make me not believe in God or not become a Christian because I know what I believe. But if you give people enough fear where they're unwilling to challenge themselves, you can control them.

SPEAKER_06 48:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

And that's why you have a lot of people who are pastors who are who will say don't learn this other stuff because they want to keep you in a space of control. And I know if I actually again believe in God, I and and God that is pulling you towards love, I have to trust that you are gonna go down this path. This is why like my son is not I'm not baptizing my son. Now, this is the part I'm gonna say in this podcast, I wouldn't say my own podcast. Because as a Methodist clergy person, we're supposed to believe in infant baptism. I don't believe in infant baptism. Um, I believe, as LeBri said earlier, like Isaiah has to choose what he's gonna follow. Now, again, I didn't know Isaiah, so I'm giving him some, I'm gonna give him a head start.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

I'm like, I'm like, hey man, this is directly, you know, didn't name him Judas, didn't name him Cain.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

I think there's an episode here about the naming of children and the sending them off into the world before they can send themselves, but that's just like if we go through the four of us and talk about all the children that we have, yeah, and how we came to the names that we've given them and what we hope that would mean, or didn't hope that would mean as they worked out. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_05 50:02

There's a reason I didn't name my son Deshante. There was a reason. It was religious and capitalist.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

And I name my son Isaiah because so my son is biracial, he's black, but you know, he's married. My wife is white, and I'm like, he has to have a name where he has credibility with black people, and he can be in white spaces and still be with, you know, so I'm not thinking about all that stuff. Deep thinker. You think you put some thoughts into that. Strategic. No, I had to, you know, so like be a doctor. We call him, we call him Zay. Like most people in my family call him Zay. Um, and so he has like, we I did, I I thought I thought a great deal about what we were gonna name him, if it was a boy or a girl, because I had to, because I'm aware of you know the world I live in and racialized politics. But fundamentally, I wanted Isaiah to choose what he wants to follow and what tradition he wants to follow. I would be hurt if he chose not to practice religion. But if whatever religion he chooses to practice, I will support him in that because I believe ultimately it needs to be his choice. Um, and I can't be so insecure in my own faith and my own belief in God, and I to believe that God is also pulling Isaiah towards love as well. And so that's what I think it boils down to. Love it. It's so crazy, man. I mean, I had one kid that I mean, this story, and this is this it broke my heart, man. I had a kid that um went to the University of San Diego, he was a first-year student, he's Brazilian, he um grew up Pentecostal, and he came to me in office hours and said, Dr. Carter, you know, I need you to uh help me because I know I'm gay and I know I'm going to hell, but I still believe in God, and so I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna reconcile this stuff. And I'm just like, I mean, that was a fundamental reorientation for how I taught my intro to Christianity class. Because I was like, I'm not gonna have someone come in here that believes they're a Christian, that's been raised in a church that tells them some bullshit. Right and then and leave and leave my class thinking and not not understanding how to question that.

SPEAKER_05 52:19

I would just I just want to thank you so much, Dr. Carter, for your presence, for your words. And, you know, just speaking for myself, I have so many questions and I've been so resistant that you have really helped me tremendously sort of refocus my thoughts and feelings in relationship to religion, to Jesus, and because I think what I see versus what I hear hasn't matched up, and so you've kind of made you made some bridges. And the last thing I'll say is you remind me a lot of a Stevie Wonder song, Love is in Need of Love. If we all listen to that one, that is a song that depicts everything you've said on this podcast, and I appreciate appreciate you for that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

I mean, fine, I'll get the PhD.

SPEAKER_05 53:10

And if I could talk like him, oh yeah. Oh yeah, sign me up.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

No, you know what? I I I I not only I appreciated it, I was reading, you know, your article last night and I re-listened to the sermon, and in my head I said, oh, if this was the language around religion that I had heard as a child, I would probably be in a very different space today. Um, I find myself struggling uh with both faith and religion. And religion, it's easy to struggle with because systems function in the way that they were designed. And so that's easy to set aside because it's not a system I want to participate in. And yet I am envious of people of faith. Um, and I know many of them who are intelligent, thoughtful, kind, loving people um who simply in their heart of hearts are very much interested in the betterment of humanity and the sustenance of people. And I find you to be one of those people. I appreciate you being here. Your words have um validated many of the spurious comments that we've made over the course of this season. Um he said spurious. I got a whole bunch of them, right? He's the brother said feudal, and I have five ex-students who won't listen to me ever again if I don't say feudalism is a system of government based on land ownership and loyalty. But what I mean to say is thank you. Um I appreciate you, I appreciate all that you are doing, right? I know a very tiny bit of it, but um even this piece about naming your son, you are a thoughtful, yeah, intelligent, loving person, and I appreciate getting to spend this time with you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 55:15

Yeah, Dr. Carter, Christopher, I want to say that um one of my favorite preachers that I needed at a time of my life when I was deconstructing my faith is a woman named Nadia Boltz-Weber. I think she's a Lutheran minister. She has what many women may consider a very unorthodox background, doesn't belong in the ministry. She's full-time minister, she wears, she wears, she has the collar, it's like that priestly collar, and she cusses in her sermons. She's got she's a recoverer, you know, in recovery. She's like six foot one, she's a CrossFit, tatted up. And she is often asked because she's so she was sort of controversial when she came up, and she's very contrarian and incredible, incredible. And people ask her sometimes, why do you stay in this stuffy religion? Why, why do you uh occupy that space that's very traditional as a Lutheran minister wearing your vestments and stuff? And she said, I'm gonna paraphrase now, she says, you know, that this is way too precious to leave to the thoughtless. And that's what you remind me of. I'm I'm so glad that someone like you, as thoughtful, as courageous, as articulate in so many layers and and just round it and wise, is is occupying this space. So it it does give me hope. And I appreciate how you danced with us because we were not an easy dance partner, the three of us, but you just came right in, and I appreciate it so much. And I want to say, for those of you listening, watching, make sure you check out the Reverend Dr. Chris Ricardi. You can read one of his three books or read all of them. I'm reading the spirit of soul food right now, it's phenomenal. It's also Race Animals, the new vision of the beloved community, and there's also Blood in the Soil. He's got two podcasts: the Progressive Progressive Christians Podcast, and also The Loft, where he preaches every Sunday in Westwood. And Christopher, I'll give you the final words.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

First of all, I just want to thank y'all so much for having me on. Um, you know, one of the things that I miss about being a professor like full-time in the academy is these kinds of conversations where people who aren't coming to me because of some because of my role as a pastor, they're coming to have these conversations because of uh, you know, the theological training and academic rigor and and the other things I think I can bring to a conversation. Um and you know, it is a lot of what gives me life, is what gives me joy. And and I think the the reason I'm even at the loft is in part because I've I combine some of that teaching into the way I preach. Um and these are the kinds of conversations that I think can help little by little begin to transform our community, begin to transform our circles, and it and and it continues, can grow wider. Um, you know, the the the the the thing for me, you know, is is how can I get people like y'all, like like this is the kind of conversation, the kind of things that that I think churches and communities need. And so Antonio, I know you're you're talking about where you are in your particular kind of struggle. I think so religion at its best is about community. You know, it it takes community seriously, and I think that's where we can grow together. It's hard to do stuff on your own. It's it's I think actually pretty impossible, but in conversation with friends and community, we can grow together, and ultimately that can become church. Uh, it may not look the way we may have thought it was gonna look, but it may end up being church. And so for me, that's been creating the podcast, and you know, we have um about just over 4,000 downloads a month on something that is not we've not really advertised beyond just social media. And I see now, oh, for some people, this is church because they live in a place where they don't have a progressive Christian community and they listen to us every week, they they email. I'm like, oh, this is y'all church. Y'all just see y'all tune in for an hour of church, and you're like, oh, went to church, you know. And so, and this is without asking them for money, LeBron. So, this is maybe they favorite kind of church.

SPEAKER_07 59:38

Whoa, we're not we ain't maybe it's a community of faith, a prophet with no profit, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

So, you know, I think that I think it's trying to connect with people like y'all and and continue to advocate for the kind of community transformation that I believe really can move us towards a path of liberation. Um, and that's why I I mean that's why I agree to do this. That's why I'm sad for the conversation I've had. And this has just been it's been so much fun. Like this is literally, I could do this for I could keep going. Because I know me, and once I'm into something, I'm like, I just be up. I go give me a drink, and then we get then we get Dr. Carter after dark. What I think is that that that needs to be, I don't know how I know as I'm saying. Like that needs to be. Welcome, good sir. There you go.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:29

I'm just gonna say it right now. Tune in season two for Dr. Carter after dark because I have a feeling this is not our last time. He is not. No, definitely not. He is Dr. Carter. We are Three for the Founders. Thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:44

Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at threeforthefounders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok. Or send us a text through Bud Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left on Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:13

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

I think that was that was at least two episodes, if not more. I'm like, oh my gosh.