Ep. 17 - The Space Between Us: Racism, Privilege, and Proximity *Bonus*

🎙️ This week on Three for the Founders, the hosts dive into one of the most pressing and uncomfortable realities of our time: racism, proximity, and the ways white supremacy quietly weaves itself into the fabric of modern society.

In this unreleased conversation—titled Exploring Racism and Proximity in Modern Society—you’ll hear candid stories of family, history, and lived experience. The hosts wrestle with parallels between current government actions against communities of color and the haunting echoes of the Holocaust. They unpack how white privilege often goes unnoticed, and how the lack of genuine proximity between people of different races fuels misunderstanding and division.

You’ll also hear Lybroan share a story about sitting down with Peggy McIntosh, the scholar who first coined the term white privilege, and what that moment revealed about hidden advantages many never think twice about. And the metaphor of people of color as “zoo animals”—observed, but not truly engaged—invites listeners to question their own roles in systems of passive observation.

✨ Here are a few questions we invite you to consider as you listen:

• What happens when we move beyond observation and into genuine proximity?
• How do our personal stories shape the way we see—or ignore—systems of oppression?
• If white supremacy thrives on being normalized, what does it look like to denormalize it in our daily lives?
• And perhaps most importantly: what will it take for us to step out of silence and into meaningful dialogue?

🗓️ Mark your calendars: Exploring Racism and Proximity in Modern Society drops Monday, September 8th, 2025. The episode runs 30 minutes, and trust me—you’ll want to sit with every second.

👉 Subscribe now to Three for the Founders wherever you get your podcasts, and join the conversation.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hey, it's Reynaldo Antonio here. From time to time our conversations run longer than we intended, and we're left with longer, short snippets of some value, in our opinion. We're dropping these shorter bonus episodes as intellectual appetizers for you to chew on until we're back next week. Enjoy. And and we've talked, right? So the t-shirt today is drink coffee, fight racism, empower women. And what I know is that we have talked extensively about our male experience and that if this was three women, biracial, black, white, this would be a significantly different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Right? And so I'm aware of that. I'm awake to that fact.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

And I can still participate in this conversation because that doesn't mean that this isn't valid. It doesn't mean that what we're saying isn't true. It simply means that there are other stories to be told and to participate in what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

You got that right. Preach. Yes. And we will have those voices on this show.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

We're brothers. We're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Give me a high five. All right, cut and print. Beautiful guys. Dynomite.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years. And now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three Brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

One more house killing housekeeping thing is we always have to do some some version of an introduction of who we are and how we know each other. I heard you do that. I said how we know each other, but not who we are.

SPEAKER_04 2:04

Don't you agree? Three, two, one. Reynaldo Antonio Macias, teacher, educator, historian, researcher, lifelong learner. I like to talk about things, and I have friends to do it with.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

LeBron? Hello, everyone. My name is LeBron James, mathematician, educator, and constant questioner of what's going on in the world. I'm also a member of the World Future Society, so I study historical and future trends based on statistical data.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

And I am John Augustine. I am a communications consultant and executive coach. I'm also a musician and a creator. I'm obsessed with communicating clearly because I believe deeply that most of what separates us is misunderstanding. And that's one of the main reasons I'm here because these two brothers of mine, fraternity brothers, are people who I understand and I feel understood by. And our conversations illuminate to me what we all should be talking about to become better citizens and make this a better America for everybody. That's why we're here. And now we join a conversation already in progress. Instead, we're spending most of our energy just trying to define and prove that racism still exists and it still is at the heart, white supremacy specific. To white people. Because we don't see it, we don't experience it, we don't get hurt by it. And so it's almost like you're talking about a war in Syria. Like that's tragic, that's terrible, I don't like seeing those pictures. I need to go get my latte.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

So then I'm curious then, because that's a good point. So now from the perspective of people of color who are experiencing the the brunt of this terrorist attack by the government on people of color. What do people of color do in this time? Because like it's the we're now the Jews, and the government is Hitler and the Nazis. And we see what happened to the brother Jews. They didn't come out too well at the end of that thing. So what can we do different so that we can survive this onslaught?

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Somebody said, as a scholar of the Holocaust, I keep seeing people equate what's happening now with the beginning of what was happening with the Nazis. He said, We're a few steps past the beginning. Ooh, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

They're building camps. Literally.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

You mean the big beautiful bill where they took money for Medicaid and are kicked people and kicking people off their health care to give ICE$40 million to build more camps, more deportation. We got people dying, so are those deaf camps? Like we got people dying in ICE custody after having been kidnapped before they were human trafficked.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

People being empowered, like the brown shirts, to just go out and grab people not having to show their own identifications as federal agents and asking people for their papers on the street. This isn't yes, this is well past 1933 or 1936 or 1937, 1939.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

Was that a rhetorical question, LeBron?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

What questions are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04 5:22

When you said what what what what do people of color do right now?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

No, it was not a rhetorical question. And I I asked it because we keep centering white people and talk about white people, they're complicit or not complicit, and uh they're feeling they're not feeling safe, and we bear the brunt of their proposed insecurities and fears in their mind. We bear the brunt of that, and we never talk about what can we do or what should we do in opposition to being terrorized.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Besides being asked to coddle us.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yes. And so it was somewhat rhetorical because we know we can't answer that question, but I felt we just had to put it in the air. So hopefully somebody listening will Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

I uh yeah, I was it that wasn't a challenge. I was I was really I didn't know if you were expecting an answer.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

No. Have podcasts, open dialogue, be Brian Stevenson, be LeBron, be Antonio.

SPEAKER_04 6:26

Police forces, slave catchers, ice raids, you know, most deaf was on Bill Maher's show before Bill Maher lost his fing. And he said that, you know, 9-11 was terrible, but as black folk in New York, we are used to people looking at us askance and rolling us up and stopping frisk and all of these things. So to have somebody else say, I hate you because, and then act on it, right? And his point wasn't that 9-11 was uh wasn't a terrible thing. His point was that what he experiences on a daily basis is a terrible thing. That's why I asked if that was a rhetorical question. That's why I'm like, we do keep coming back to white supremacy being the problem and white people not being the problem, but I don't need to talk so much about or to white people. I need white people to learn some shit so that white supremacy isn't what they're doing all the time. Yes. Whoa, Anton, are you frozen?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

No, you're did I answer frozen? You wish. You wish you wish Yeah, don't preface John.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

He spoke on it.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Keep telling your stories. Because I agree. LeBron, you told me one time we want you to listen to us. We want you to believe us. And the when I don't remember what episode to reference, but when Antonio says That's fair, Thanksgiving was coming around. I was six years old, I came home and I asked for steak knives, and my parents said, Why do you want steak knives? And you said, Because I need to cut the heads off my Native American figurines. Why are you gonna cut the heads off your Native American figurines? Because they're the bat guy. You telling that story is so illuminative to me and it's so revolutionary. If I believe you, I suddenly am now I'm I'm thrust out of my neutrality and I'm going, holy shit, this is I don't like that a fellow citizen went through that. And that's not good. How can I reflect on myself and change that? LeBron, when you tell the story of your dad who was chased by the KKK in West Virginia as a child, served two tours in Vietnam proudly, got called the N-word on the way home on the boat from Vietnam, punched him in the nose rightfully, broke his nose, respect, and served two years in the brig. When you tell those stories, we see things differently. And when we see things differently, that is when we start to feel something. And when we feel something, then we act. So what can you do? I'm sorry if it feels like you're educating us or you're coddling us, or it's your job to teach us. I hope that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying keep telling your stories because your stories are real. And we are unfamiliar with them.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Right. And the reason you're unfamiliar, and the reason I believe that you're here, John, and can have this conversation is because of a concept that Brian Stevenson talks about a lot: proximity. The closer you are to people, the more you understand them. You don't have these false illusions, false perceptions because you know. So if I say, John, are you scared of black people? You'd be like, Why would I be? Your proximity through music, through your dad, through jazz, through the fraternity. So you can walk through the world without fear because of proximity. When I tell you that Antonio and I are experts on white people, it's because of our proximity. We are so close to white people all the time, and we teach their kids, so they let their guards down. They invite us over to dinner, we go to their schools, so they don't see us as a threat. So our proximity lets us have a better understanding of all the nuances. What I know that the this administration and MAGA is an expert at, not only is it gaslighting America, but they're creating fear so that there's no proximity. That's right. That's right. See, if you scare people, white people away from people of color, then they can believe the lies. But if you go, if you work with them, if you party with them, if you celebrate, you do these normal you shop with them in their neighborhoods, then you have proximity. Then you're like, oh, your kids and my kids get along. That's right. My kids driving me crazy. My kid drives me crazy too. See, then you create relationship through proximity, and then you're able to, you know, cancel out the noise. So that's the part I'm trying to figure out. How can we get more proximity for all of us as one step towards erasing supremacy?

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Do you all remember that story of the FBI agent who was assigned to Malcolm X to monitor him? And he ended up becoming his fan.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yes, I remember that story.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

He was, I'm sure it was the FBI, I don't think it was CIA, but he he was specifically assigned to, you know, they had bugged Malcolm X's phones and all this stuff. And of course, in his mind, Malcolm X is demonized and he's like, we've got to, we gotta get this guy. And he writes in the book, I believe it's in it, it's it's it's I forget which book it was recently that I that I read it. He writes how this man makes a lot of sense. What he's doing, he's fighting for his people, he's fighting for his children. He's yeah. White agent, white agent, black agent, white agent, white agent who then and it's that proximity that you're talking about, LeBron. And I'm gonna say something here that I would be afraid to say if it weren't you all. White people often treat people of color like zoo animals that we're observing you. Yes, thank you, John. And we're we're taking notes. Like, aren't they? Oh, aren't they precious? Oh, look. They're so kind to their young. Wow, who would have known? And then they walk away. That's so true. That is so true. That's not proximity. That's that's that's observation. That's observation, that's condescension, that's that's safety. You know, you're over there, I'm over here. And and honestly, nobody's better at calling attention to how woke they are than people who have observed people of color. You know, so you're right, proximity is messy and it's beautiful. And I I know I sort of in a way was joking about Brazil, but you know, Brazilians through their history have were forced to like all the cultures, well, the mess came together and it created a stunning culture. And I just think that that's what we're missing. The America, the vision that the MAGA party, the MAGA regime is putting forth, is a scary vision of monochromatic colorlessness, a lack of messiness, a weird idolatry of a time that never even truly existed in our country, where only lies and mythology were propped up. The future that I want, I want to prepare for a future that's going to actually exist, which is all of us together, respecting one another, learning from proximity. Uh that's such that's such the way. And when you all tell your stories, proximity does happen. I mean, it's just, you know, I I appreciate knowing that. I appreciate being able to be together. I just know that I'm not gonna put raisins in a castle roll. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

One last I have one last story to share, and then I need for Antonio to share another story or to say what I see behind them damn.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

There's something because we go back way too far, bro. Don't even try it. So, when we talk about, you talked about fear and I talked about proximity. The one conversation that stands out, one of my most poignant conversations I ever had, is when I was at Harvard, I had lunch with a lady named Peggy McIntosh. So in 1988, she authored the the knapsack. She is the one that coined the term white privilege. So the the pride, the term white privilege, she's the one who came up with the term white privilege.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Okay, I don't even know this book. I didn't know, so thank you. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

So Peggy was in You don't know Peggy McIntosh? Peggy McIntosh. Oh my goodness. My favorite white woman, by the way. Like, there's no Robin D'Angelo without oh, not even. No, none of that. None of this. Half these conversations wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Robin D'Angelo can't paint her toe.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

I didn't mean to start this part over, LeBron. Here, let's go back.

SPEAKER_04 15:04

No, we don't have to start it over. I will say that out loud.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

All right. So I'm having lunch. A friend of mine, she allowed me to partake in the lunch with Peggy McIntosh at Harvard. And she goes, LeBron, you're gonna leave here with a Harvard degree. So you're gonna have a bucket of privilege. But because you're a black man, every time you open your mouth, you're gonna pour out some of that privilege. And then she goes, Your friend here, who's pretty and light skinned, she may get two buckets. But your black ass is gonna get one bucket. So be careful how you pour it out. She goes, Me as a white woman, my bucket refills every morning. I can criticize the president, I can criticize my boss, I can complain, I can curse people out, but my bucket of privilege refills every morning. The wind's at her price.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

So she goes, the wind's at her back.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

The wind's at her back. So she goes, LeBron, if you want to educate black and brown kids, you need to partner with white women. That's your best weapon. Because if you get white women on your side, white women can change everything. I was like, wow. And she goes, she goes, when I wrote that article, the uh the NAPSAC, and I came up with the term white privilege, two things happened to me. One, my whole family and all my white friends turned against me. I felt alone. But she goes, the better part was I was accepted by all people of color. She goes, I could go anywhere in the country. And she goes, for the first time in my life, I felt safe. Whoa. She goes, because all white people are afraid that everyone else will do to them what they do to everybody else. Oh so she goes, once I came up with the term, I was free for the rest of my life and safe. So that conversation always plays in my head. And when you mentioned that, that white people have this fear, that's what made me remember though that conversation with Peggy. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yes. My God.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

So you hung out with Peggy McIntosh and Bettina Love. I hate you and I want to be you. Antonio. He went to Harvard. Oh Peggy McIntosh. She's a genius. Read that article, Peter. She's up there. Peggy McIntosh. What's her name? Jane Elliott? Oh, I love Jane Elliott. That's my second favorite. Jane Elliott's the other one. Shout out to Jane Elliott. You don't know Jane, John? You're making that face? Oh, John. You need to start knowing your white people.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

There's a list of white people you need to know, John.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

You got me on, you know, Isabel Wilkerson. I got my Tanahasse Coates. I got my James Walton. I got Ellie West. Ellie.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Oh, William Lloyd Garrison. That's who I was trying to think about. Seven conversations ago. The white man who helped Frederick Douglass. There are white people in history and in life who get it from way early, and by the time they're older, they're saying it out loud. Yes, yes, yes. Peggy McIntosh, Jane Elliott, Tim Watson.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Shout out to my good white folks.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Roy Wood Jr. said it by my comedian that I like to go back to a run. He's like, we need to get it, we need to get like a necklace to put on the neck to the cool white people. Like, here, just wear that. Thank you. Just wear this. We got you. So everybody can always scroll. Antonio.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Yep. I found us starting to have a conversation about immigration today, and I don't think that's I didn't I think we failed to stay on target yet again. I think we've come back to it a couple of times. Um and yet I know that the I appreciate the need to hear the stories over and over again. I also appreciate the need to address, articulate, folks of color do this all the time. We were we we were over here the other day, you know, while you were you were with family. You weren't here. But we were all chopping it up. And it was the it was race was a giant piece of the conversation. And it wasn't a giant piece of the conversation, like let me tell you what is bad about being whatever, or how right? We it was just part and parcel of what we were doing. That felt much more like the conversations that we've had than today, or when we try to stay on target. One of my questions was do we just say f it and give white people the country or give the Republicans the country? Like, take take that shit. Wow, don't play football for the NFL. Yes, right? California, we're out, like let's secede. You know, that's what it took. And then the fired on Fort Sumter. Like somebody had to say, I'm out. If this is really what you want, if this was what you think you're gonna have, is that what it takes? And there will be people who will be sad about that. I got, you know, my boy, he's down 50 grand, 10 toes down. He's married to a white woman. They got a beautiful little mixed baby, right? They're gonna have to figure out where to go. I know where they're gonna go, they're gonna stay with us. Yeah. Because he's not gonna be welcomed, and neither is his son. Right? But at a certain point, if you have studied history and if you've studied this evolution, I was so moved by the original algorithm white supremacy. I like that just stuck with me because it gave voice to what I've noticed, that there has been a constant evolution. It doesn't matter what you call it, it matters what it is, and it matters what it does. And if it's a fear that's born of darker peoples, that's then then we can't deal with it. And if it's a if it's a manufactured fear that's built of the evolution of capitalism, or if it's a fear that's built to manipulate the levers of power and garner resources for one specific small group of people, right, who then write the Constitution, then educating people from the beginning, right, is what we have to do, but we have to argue about the education. I'm just like my ex-fiance mother, whom you've met. Beautiful black woman, about five foot nothing.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

If I know what daughter you're talking about, who that makes sense?

SPEAKER_04 21:40

Yep, right? Who who who who taught for a certain amount of years, and she said to me one day, I hate white people. And I said, How do you say that? I know who you are, I know you are. She said, I can't deal with the level of ignorance that they bring. And then they want you to show them the way out of it as if you didn't have to learn it yourself. And then I find myself in these conversations going, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this is gonna come out real disrespectful. And so that's that's what what I'm struggling with because That's what I you know that's what I figured.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

And I wonder if when I know that you've done a lot of research, I I have two things come to mind. Number one, I'm like, hell yes. Antonio's gonna be impressive. He's gonna spit facts, it's gonna be amazing. And also I know that he's only gonna get one tenth of them in because we're gonna do what we do for good reason. If you did start today, Antonio, with that question, like, hey, should we just like just surrender? I could imagine this would go very well with that question. What do you think, LeBron?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

I think that question and what if they put white, they said white men. Those two, to me, that was the whole podcast right there. Like, oh, because though both of those, to me, it was like, oh, Antonio's going right for the jugular. I'm I'm behind you, bruh. Let's go. Let's dive into that shit.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

And I can only say these things because it's the two of you, and then everybody else gets to listen in on the conversation. It's not an educational podcast, it's a listen in on what a healthy conversation looks like. Exactly. People have a different background. I love that. There's a Willy, there's a Willie Nelson song, Living in the Promised Land, that's all about that. He's he's wrote it about what's on the Statue of Liberty. Give us your give us your tide and we can we and we will make them strong. Sing us your foreign songs, and we will sing alone. My man, Willie. Yeah, Willie. Hard dreams are made of steel with a dream of every man. Isn't know how freedom feels. It's pretty good. I like that one. Yeah, and Antonio, dude, in all seriousness, man, I I mean this. I apologize. My shoehorning of the white central centrist centrification rains on the parade of your intent. I'm seeing it. I'm seeing that that's what I do. But remember, my idea to begin with was let's get these fucking white folks off their asses. Here's the sneaky part of it.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

I've said that out loud, like on on camera. Um, like we talked about everybody's got a different reason for being here, and so I can't be mad at you for being you. Oh no, trust me. People were like, I had to what did Louis Vett say? She's like, I almost crashed my car when he said he didn't hear Trump. Like I said, she was she was looking for you, she was looking for you here.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

I didn't want to have that. Listen, I'm I was afraid to say that out loud, but I'm glad that I did. I'm glad you did. It betrays you. Yeah, here's someone who's paying attention and wasn't paying attention. Thank you. That's what you're up against, folks. Hate to break it.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Sure. Sure. No, understood. So I can't be mad at you for that. And I honestly decided years ago, like that's not my job. Got it. And so if that's that's not all our conversations are ever, but if that's what we end up doing here, I'm like, all right, I can't. Yeah, you could dip into it. Like Jefferson and Washington and John Adams and all of these people wrestled with what liberty meant for them. Yeah. But they very articulately said what it wasn't gonna mean for everybody else. And it wasn't accidental, and it wasn't that they were speaking in the language of their time, because part of what we know about Jefferson is, right, that he was a genius. Kennedy said, he's talking to 12 Nobel laureates sitting at the dinner table, and he said, This is the largest collection of intellect this room has ever seen, with the exception of when Thomas Jefferson died here alone. So there is not a surprise to him that black people are people. There's a choice by him. Mmm. Right? And so holding holding people accountable for the things that they say and do is a necessary act. When you said, oh, the normal fraternities, and then you were like, Oh, I heard it. That's cool. And then we were talking about it and you told that story. The part that you didn't say was that the traditionally white fraternities were traditionally white by design, on purpose, intentionally, exclusive. And so then it sounds like, oh, I'm just talking about this without giving it the context that this wasn't just the way it happened, this was built this way. Systems function the way they were designed, and this system functions in order to facilitate that ignorance of how the system is designed.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

That is so beautiful. Antonio, that the way you just said that was so eloquent, beautiful, and clear because the bell just went off of my head. Like, in my experience, white people treat like racism and white supremacy as some natural phenomenon that just sort of happened and we're here. But it's all been by design by a few smart people who thought about it deeply over many years and strategically created policies, implemented laws. Because remember, racism is by the government, it's government sanctioned. Otherwise, it would just be prejudice. I wouldn't be worried about y'all. But when y'all got the government behind you, that that's a hard one to fight.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

And see, this goes back to that question that you did ask and and what what we could base an entire episode on. But even LeBron, like your breakdown right now about it being law versus prejudice. Like that, to me, I want to dive into that. Like when it's codified in law by a few smart people, that's when it's scary. Prejudice I can manage. Yes. Because that's just stupid. That's one person, that's an individual, that can be undone. But when it's legal, when it's systemic, then that's that's and and the question going back to when Thomas Jefferson penned these words and he did struggle over every single word based on history. Then if he left out white, he did do it on purpose. And what does that mean? We could woof, woof, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Because I'll admit that I'm not sure. Great place to pick up. Oh, yeah. Thank you for joining us. Still got questions, other things you want to say? Hit us up at 3 for the founders on Instagram or TikTok and let us know. Till the next time, left on founders.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

We out. Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. Soon to be, once we give the country over to the white folks, as Antonio has suggested, Fox will be Fox will be the uh the state-run television program. Take back your stolen land. Hey, John. I want to get a PBS t-shirt. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Um, yeah, I finally I had to LeBron is pissing me off, so I had to Oh, you flexing on me.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Oh, go to the mob. Look at you. Yo. Now I have to admit, embarrassingly, when I said PBS, I literally meant public broadcasting service because the funding was taken away. Yep. And then you show up with Five Bit of Sigma, which is also PBS. Gentlemen. All right, my brothers. Go mob us. Go mob. I'll see you on Monday. Monday it is. Holla. Hollyright.