Ep. 30 - Say More: What Season One Taught Us *Bonus*

At a time when Americans are tired of scripted outrage and elite-approved talking points, Three for the Founders is doing something different—speaking freely and living with the consequences. In Episode 30, the hosts look back on Season One and tell the truth about what happens when you stop chasing applause, stop curating a “target audience,” and start saying what you actually think. The result? Real conversations, real pushback, and real growth.

This retrospective pulls no punches. The hosts reflect on early episodes that played it safe—and later ones that didn’t. They talk candidly about faith, race, gun culture, family, language, and power, including moments that made listeners uncomfortable and moments that made the show stronger. Along the way, they honor influential voices, remember friends lost too soon, and acknowledge where they got it wrong—and why owning that matters more than managing optics.

There’s humor, too—phones buzzing mid-recording, debates about bathroom doors at home—but the message is serious: authenticity beats approval every time. Three for the Founders isn’t here to preach or please. It’s here to have the conversation others won’t—and trust the audience to decide what to do with it.

Episode 30 drops December 29.

Season One ends. Season Two begins in 2026.

Listen—and judge for yourself.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

That's all right. I'll just go with the oldest drink in the world.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Uh, water? Regret.

unknown 0:08

Regret.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

We're brothers. We're both and we're father.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Alright, cut and friend. Beautiful guys. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years. And now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Dude, I was just telling LeBron that uh listening to the name episode today.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

You know, I was I was of two minds. Mind number one is that, you know, I love us, and I can just listen to us talk, and it's great, and I enjoy re-listening. But I was putting myself in the shoes of a of a listener thinking this is the most boring shit ever.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Thank you, John, for kicking off our recap episode of season one. As we sit here and talk about ourselves, talking about ourselves, as we've done for 30 episodes now. You know more about us than we knew about each other. That's a fact. And we appreciate you being here. Um, and so uh I'm having the same feelings. Like we came off of the uh Dr. Christopher Carter talking about is God racist and the gospel of power? And then we went to uh 2A in LA and talked about all things that go bang. Okay. And uh and then we had the masterful class with uh Julie Clark and Louis Vedresto. Yes, all of those I found interesting, uh, mostly because we didn't talk a lot in those. Um and so it was it was like we asked some really good questions and had people with thoughtful answers uh come on and share their perspectives, their lives, their philosophies, their pedagogies, all of this stuff with us. Um and then we dropped into episode 27, which was I want to say the no topic episode. Four names. You know, Juliana came up to me yesterday, and then she was telling them about all these funny parts that she really appreciated that she was laughing at. So there are things that we do that are unique to us as we talk. It's you to your point, you're like, eh, who who really cares? But it hits people where it hits people.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

They get out of it what they get out of it, whether or not we think there's a there's a point to it or a purpose, or we have a topic, or we have to stay on target, or I think it's just like teaching, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

You know, you have a lesson plan, you deliver it, and you don't know how it's gonna land. You don't know what kid you'll say something, and it'll impact that kid for the rest of their lives. You have no idea that that particular sentence or that particular topic, we are three educated, intelligent dudes with three different perspectives just sharing. And I think everyone can find something uh productive or valuable in what we say. And I just love our conversations, man. They cracked me up.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

And I'm like, oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

I just wish everybody I wish I could download 30 years of friendship so people can have that and then plug it in and have even more context than what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

That's how I feel. If this is meant to be our retrospective intro, we're gonna talk about 2025. This this is one of the things that I wrote down was that one thing I learned is this exact reality that we say what we say, and sometimes these are fully baked thoughts that we, you know, I came with, I have a point I want to make in there, I made my point, and I'm proud of how I made my point. And then people experience it, how they experience it based on their experience. And then it's totally different. And I was coming back to simple or complicated, like this thing keeps coming up because look, I agree with both of you. If we're gonna say people are simple, it's because they're self-interested and they act out of their own self-interest, but then they're complicated in their experience because they they even though the self-interest is at the heart uh of it. Man, people have complicated reactions to us, to things we say. And it's like art does the same thing. That's what's tripping me out. Like I was thinking, like you're saying to LeBron, like we're relatively thoughtful. I would say academic, two of you are academic. Three of us.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

You went to school.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I did, not as long as either of you, and not as Ivy. I went to a school that looked like an Ivy League school, but it indeed was not a number one public university in the country.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, our worst.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yes. But you know, I will present thoughts that are really cogent and like make really good points. And then still, like a painting, someone's gonna take it in as themselves through all the filters and experiences, and they're gonna have their experience with even thoughts. And it's been that's been fascinating for me to see like the good side, like, whoa man, I really got something out. I'm like, really? You got something out of that conversation? Okay, and then the bad side, like, you all don't know what you're talking about, or you know, completely missing the point that was being made, or you know, seeing another point entirely. But I've been fascinated watching how different people react.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

It to me, it's it's fascinating too, John, for the simple fact that now I'm listening to more podcasts, and I listen, I hear people speak on like Instagram and TikTok, and I'm like, they have a lot of followers and listeners, and they ain't saying shit. I'm like, wow. So we can do that. So we can do that. We're speaking to an audience, we just haven't clearly identified the audience, the audience is identifying us. That's the difference. And so it's a self-selecting process. And if we just keep being true to ourselves, there are millions of people who would like to hear what we have to offer. The question is, how fast or how soon do they get exposed to us in order to join in?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

I don't know if if y'all can hear it and if it's not bothering you, but one of the two of you is really popular right now. And that vibration of text messages coming in.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Like I hear oh, oh, you heard that too? I put my phone in my lap because I'm like, am I buzzing?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

You thought you were buzzing so you put your phone in your lap?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, because I thought it was on the MOS. So I thought that's where it goes when it's buzzing.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Properly that's why I carry it in my front pocket. Sit you in my front pocket, baby. Grandopy. Grandlos in in preparation. I was listening to the first 10 minutes of every episode, but I was listening to just how we were interacting. There was much more hesitation. Everything needed to be punchy, like there needed to be something in every sentence. And so we were all hesitating more to speak, and as we've gotten comfortable, or as we've gotten feedback, or as we've gotten blowback, um it's become more oh no, I'm gonna have this conversation, and if people don't appreciate it, then that's fine. But we're gonna be true to the conversation that we've been having so that it's authentic. And I think that's that's sort of set a level where you know LeBron is putting his phone in his lap so it buzzes.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Actually, I have a question. My personal but everyone's gone for the holidays, so I'm here by myself for the whole week at this big house. So my question to you too is if you're home alone, do you close the door when you use the bathroom?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Every time, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yes. Why?

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Yes, home training, home training, home training. You don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Somebody can break in and at the Messias, I know that's that's a dangerous proposition to actually think you're home alone. Like it did.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah, I mean it's like, what is this home alone you speak of?

unknown 8:59

What is it?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Is it a Christmas movie? No, LeBron, I travel so much, I'll be flying tomorrow. I stay at hotels by myself all the time. Yeah, I close that door every single time. I'm just more comfortable with that.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Wait, okay. So LeBron came with the question. Now I can LeBron. Who doesn't?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

There it is. No, LeBron's hand is raised. I'm having my Antonio.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

You've just been voted off the global majority team. Take your raisin and table.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Use the bathroom with the door open. It's so liberating, dude. It's like it's like listening to Donna Summer like disco music, dude. It's like I feel so free and in touch with myself. I'm like, give us, you know, I didn't get 40 acres in the mule. At least let me leave the door open. I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

You got me on some glory again. First, I was afraid.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Thinking, how could I go if I was not closed inside?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

I feel the opposite. I feel like try it, John. I have tried it. It didn't work. It's like saying I get stage fright.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Oh, wait. I'm sorry. I was assuming you were talking about sitting on the toilet. Are you talking about peeing? Either one. I don't even have to be, I don't even have to be home alone. Hey, you walked into my master bedroom in my master bathroom. That's on you. And welcome back.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

No, LeBron, I gotta have the door closed. No, man. Burglar comes in.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Closed and locked. Let's be clear. Closed and locked. Woo. You don't know who's gonna come in. You don't know what they're gonna say, man. This is not your business. This is my business. I'm handling my business. Oh it's not your business.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

No, indeed. That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

How did this one scatological real quick? But it's LeBron. Scatological. That's a good question. LeBron's fault.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

So uh Hey, before we get into the main main thing, I've gotta ask this question, though, man. What are your thoughts and feelings about Rob Reiner, man? I'm such a huge Rob Reiner fan, man. Like I'm feeling so bad. And this all up even worse. How can you call yourself a president, dude? Oh, here's the thing. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Rewind, rewind, rewind, rewind. Because here's what like we could do Rob Reiner. We can talk about Rob Reiner. Yes. But then we need some space before we're right.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Thank you so much. Yep. Space before we, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Rob Reiner is the one who came back with the reach back to the past, and John posted it. He did the sock sock shoe shoe.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yep. And all in the family.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Don't you know that the whole one puts you in a sump and a shunk and a shoe? I like to take him on one side of a time.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

That's right. Right? And so as meatheads, you know. I know we're all having feelings about it. I didn't mean to stop you from having feelings about it. But I I refuse to entertain other people's ridiculousness. You know, when Harry met Sally, a few good movies. Princess Bride.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Princess Bride. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

As you wish. He just finished the new Spinal Tap movie. He just finished it.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Just finished it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

So, you know, he's contributed too much to our collective life.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Great artist, great producer. I mean, I'm a huge Rodríber fan, man.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Prayers. Yeah. Rest. Condolences to you, your wife, your whole family.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Prayers to his son.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

His son, yes. That's crazy. That's just awful.

unknown 13:18

Oh, man.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

He checked out his parents. Yeah. Yeah. And then we had the other dude from Santa Monica, the brother, the opera singer, his son. Jubilant Sykes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I don't know what's in the water these days, man.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Well, I knew Jubilant Sykes was stabbed. What happened? I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

By his son. His son killed him. And he was a big part of our community. He was like literally one of the reasons why I wanted to sing because I saw him. He's 16 years older than us. There's this thing in Santa Monica called Stairwood of the Stars. It's this big musical event every year. And I was in junior high, and he was the guest artist. And he got up there and he sang a cappella, this song called Um Witness. And then he sang a song called City Called Heaven, just him with the pianist. And I sat there, like I could see it. He's just bathed in light, you know, and I'm like 11 or 12. And here's this ridiculously brilliant, like super handsome black man singing this gospel music. And I was like, I want to do that. Like literally. And when I we would would see him in the community, like he would come by. We had our our choral teacher from Samoa, Mrs. Anderson, she had her 90th birthday this last year. And so we all came, a bunch of us came back and I sang there, and Jubilant was there, and he was asked to sing, and he declined. And before I spoke, before I sang, I got up there and I said, Hey, listen, when I got the phone call to come sing at Mrs. Anderson's 90th, I told her name's Esther. I told Esther, you obviously are supposed to be talking to Jubilant right now. So it was him. He was this beloved, you know, and I got to tell him what an inspiration he was. And and so Oh good. But I just, yeah, that that happened last week. And then when I heard about Rob Reiner, I first thought political assassination or something. And then I heard the news that it was a son. I'm like, goodness, man. And in one week. Jump on the way.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I had no idea that was who I was thinking something political or man.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah. Politics never never crossed my mind. No. But you John, you made me, and I don't know the answer to this for you either, LeBron. Um my life has been peripatetic in in the most positive way.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Uh I do math. Yeah, I'm not sure. Please do explain. Is that uh Englomatics?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

It's never yeah, that's Englomatics. It's never uh stayed in one spot, it's always moved around. So I've been mobile, um, you know, as you all discovered. One of the things you uh is that I lived in DC for five years. Um so I was in West LA for five years, DC for five years, then Long Beach. Then my parents moved to Alhambra, and I say it that way because I was in Alhambra for four years for high school, and then I moved to Westwood. Right. And then I lived in North, like I lived, I've lived all over Los Angeles. I've never lived south of Los Angeles. Um and so uh I I've never had that neighborhood feel. The closest I had to it was when my parents moved to Alhambra. Um because I grew up with uh Kate Kraptman and Beth Krapman and Greg Krapman and Matt Kraptman and Paul Krapman and Mary Kraftman, and that's a lot of crap. Well, there's and I didn't get I didn't get to all of them because uh they lived across the street. Um so I grew up with them, right? Greg is a year older than me, Matt is a couple years older, Beth I think is a year younger, and Katie is two years younger. Um and so we grew up the the seven of us um together for about five years. I'm gonna say that maybe six. Um and so that's the closest thing to like a neighborhood that I've had. Um but what is that like? What does that give you or what does that take from you? I don't know, to have grown up in one locale for so long. What is that like having that stability? It feels like something that's given to you in a way that I didn't have.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, so for me growing up in National City, shout out to National City Sweetwater Red Devils. I grew up in National City first 18 years of my life. So I grew up in an apartment, so I never lived in a home growing up. So I lived in an apartment complex and I had a couple of years. You never lived by a house? Never lived in a house. Yeah, the first house I lived in, I bought. There it is. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

So I had my community, but then if I would cross the street and jump the wall, there were the projects, and that's where all my friends lived in the projects. I lived across the street from the projects. So I grew up with those same kids from elementary to middle school to high school, so I had this real tight-knit community, and I loved it because we were all poor, but we were white, Mexican, black, Filipino, but I had no concept of race until I got to UCLA. Really? No concept of race. I love my best friends are white, my best friends were Filipino, my best friends were Samoan, my best friends were Mexican. I mean, we all had this melting pot, and never once did race ever cross my mind growing up as a kid. And we didn't know we were poor. I didn't know I was poor or about race until I got to UCLA.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

So even with Papa James raising you, like he wasn't he wasn't being deliberate to try to He put me up on game, but I didn't feel it like growing up.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, yeah. He told me about it. Yeah. I only had one experience when I when I felt it. When I told you about it when I was eight years old. And um, I was at the park and I was getting some water, and then a little white girl was coming up next to me, so I held the water so she could drink, and then I heard a mom yelling, No, no, don't drink after that. What that was a traumatic experience. And that was the only racial one I'd had, you know, growing up. Yeah, so I loved my childhood, man. That was it was amazing. Yeah, and it was so funny is now a lot of my white friends I grew up with are like LeBron, what's you're like a racist now, LeBron? Like, all you talk about is race and this and that. I'm like, dude, you think I want to? This is not our childhood. My my reality is is different. And so they like, we don't know this LeBron. I'm like, uh I wish I didn't know this LeBron either.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

I grew up, my street was also all apartments, LeBron. On uh so I had two neighborhoods. I had one on 28th Street until I was 13, and then we moved down to close to the beach thanks to rent control and to one of my dad's students, and mama is is still there paying rent control prices. Um the coolest thing about growing up in a neighborhood with apartments is there is the number of kids is so much higher because you know the it's concentrated, right? And so there were so many shenanigans within like 30 yards in either direction. You come out of our apartment to the left. And I said this when I moved when we were up and living up in the suburbs up in Caucasian Acres, where you all visited me up north, and then for a couple for a couple of years we moved into Midtown Sacramento and we were in a townhouse on the bottom floor, and it was our fence from the backyard was up against an alley. And I remember telling Lori and then telling the kids, I'm like, damn, I miss alleys. And they're like, What? I'm like, I loved alleys growing up. That's where all the good shit happened, man. That's where like we played butts up against the wall. That that game with the tennis ball, that's where you played handball. That's where you probably got groped or groped someone for the first time. It's in an alley somewhere. Yep. Alleys were the shit, man. Riding our bikes around and going to the liquor store on the corner was where we got our candy. Mama would give us a quarter on the on the weekends and go get some candy at Jerry's liquor. Um, so yeah, Antonia, it is it is a bedrock, it is a grounding. They're like the neighborhood has a personality, and um so there was just always stuff going down in the bar in a in a place like that, man. It's fun. Well, looking back at 2025, what have we learned about ourselves? You know, what have I learned about myself just by being here with you all? What have you specifically helped me see or learn? And what have what do you mean what do you remember or what have you learned about other folks? So we already talked, I talked a little bit about how fascinated I've been with how people take in our podcast, that it's different. It's so different. I I can't predict how people are gonna respond, even when I think of individual people. I can't believe. Believe there are certain things that people find interesting. And I'm so glad that they do. Um, because I find us interesting, and I, you know, uh have some thoughts on that. But I don't know. What do you all think? What what's either a memory from the podcast itself, something you see, something you've noticed in yourself, or in us as a group? Leave it wide open to y'all.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

It is awkward for me to walk into my house and see my wife and other people watching us, watching our podcast on YouTube. Like it, it like freaks me out. I get uncomfortable. Like, I don't care if the whole world listens, but you know, having family listen is just like a different experience. Like, we're on TV, like they're watching us on YouTube. Like, she's kicking us up and having us playing in the background. I'm like, wow, this is crazy. Like, we're we actually have a podcast. A couple of things I'll share that I've realized. One, I am my dad's son. That's the first thing I realized. I am Papa James's son. This is a consistent theme, is it not? Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Undeniable. And I realize that race plays too big a part of my life, and I it's been illuminated through this podcast. And so I'm in a constant struggle to eliminate the constant recognize, the constant recognition of race. I'm I'm trying to get the wind out of my face even for a few minutes. And even when I feel it, I don't want to say it. So I'm trying to, you know, like I said the other episode, I'm like, man, I almost had 24 hours without having to deal with it. But but being able to deal with it with you two is a blessing for me. Because I I feel safe, I feel understood, I feel heard. And I think that's what most people of color want. They just want to be heard and not told, you're no, it's not that bad. Oh, you're like, oh, you're making that up. Just to be heard is just so therapeutic. And like um James Baldwin said, you know, to be black and educated is to be in a constant state of rage. You know, and then having to manage that rage and put on a smile in front of your oppressor because you gotta eat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Do you want to be able to take off the glasses or do you just not want what you see to be?

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I just don't want what I see to be. Because taking off the glasses still is gonna hurt millions and millions of people. And what I'm realizing is that race atheism hurts white people more than it hurts us. It hurts us externally, but it's hurting white people internally because they're dying a slower death internally because of it, because they don't get to experience the full beauty of the world because of their narrow lens. We just get the brunt of it, like my dad said. Once again, Papa James. Black people, we sing the blues, white people, they give them.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

That pop it makes me wonder too, like before this podcast and that realization, did you did you ever resist being Papa James' son? Like I I know not actively, but like you you're proud, obviously, and and the way he raised you. There's a lot of you know, the opposite of gentle parenting goes to episode whatever. But uh 25.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Episode 25.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

25, yeah. Yeah, where you're just more seeing like how much you are his his son.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

How much I am, and I used to think that my dad was crazy. I knew the two tours of Vietnam. I'm like, this motherfucker here is crazy. But now I'm understanding the wisdom in what he's saying because I'm living it. Yeah, I'm living the things that he would tell me about that. I thought were crazy, and that's not true. You're making that up, like you're just overblowing the situation, and then now I'm like, oh wow, okay. He he had his finger on the pulse.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

I get it. Yeah. Yeah, man. When we start saying things that our dads said, that's a weird thing, man. Isn't it? That's a weird thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

It's the saying it, it's the saying it from yourself, and you say it, and then you go, oh shit. There it is. There it is. Not when you like, if I'm quoting my my parents, right? Then that's one thing. It's like, oh my dad said, Oh, my mom said. When I say, let me tell you something.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

You're like, oh, even in the mannerism, even in the setup. Oh, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yes. It's funny. In one in uh that speech that you referenced, Antonio, at UCLA, I I I happened upon a phrase about my dad that I didn't really plan on saying because I was explaining that I'm a musician and I was introducing my dad, and then I said he passed three years ago, and he's still the most important musician in my life. And I had never I'd never thought about that before because he's still so clearly that's the the wisdom my dad passed on to me was less about like life and survival, although there were some of those skills. It was mostly just musical stuff that you know. I I had him elevated in my mind because it was Bill Augustine, you know. I mean, there was a reason to have him up there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

It's funny. I was listening to um what now with Trevor Noah. It's uh interesting. The episode that he just had on was with uh this woman who wrote a book called uh called Inheritocracy. And so what they're talking about is uh the bank of mom and dad and what you have inherited from your parents, and it may not be uh it may be financial, right? It may have helped us get through school or um something like that. But what they also talked about is what do you inherit from your parents that uh isn't monetary, right? And so you inherit their name, you inherit their values, you inherit um the way in which they interact with the world. Uh and so it's just interesting that once again, uh the zeitgeist, the non-local consciousness, the ether, um what's out there that will speak into you at the moment you need it most, right? And then um it it brought to mind, I guess what I've learned about myself or what I have changed about myself um in doing this is I've thought more about how what we say or do comes through. Um and I mean that, you know, there are as you get to the later episodes, somebody will say something where I might have said, Oh, that's some bullshit. And instead I'll say, say more.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yep, you sure have. You've definitely evolved in in that respect.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, tell me more about that. I may end up still not agreeing with you, or I may take from that something that I can use. For me, that self-reflection, I was listening to the um I think it was the names episode. I think it was what came out yesterday. Um and I realized that I had walked over like LeBron was was uh man enough or vulnerable enough, one of the two, um, to admit that it was an insecurity or a security that he needed Sabah to take his last time.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

That was powerful, man. When you talk that was powerful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

And I glossed over that, not because what I said was untrue, but I didn't acknowledge the fact that I assumed that she would take my name, and if we hyphenated, it'd be my name and then her name. And if we right, there were a lot of places in there where I was stepping into that male role, stepping into what I thought that male role was without acknowledging the fact that that was simply the system that was set up that benefited me, and I wasn't going to, I didn't actually have to think about whether I was gonna change my name when we got married. I did, right? Because I'm because I'm woke. I did because I'm already, you know, I have my mom's maiden name, so I've got this example, but I didn't have to, right, and I didn't acknowledge that in speaking on it, and as I listened to it, I was like, you still front. Like it might not be a lot of fronting, but it might not, but you still front a little bit. Yeah, come on now, still fronting, right? Because I didn't actually admit to that piece of it. I don't know if that answered one or three of your questions, but no, it's quite a few of them.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah, the introspection of it all. Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the most notable moments for me individually was you calling me out. And Tony would say, John, you know, you you sometimes get into facilitation instead of participation. And uh that was a seminal moment for me because I I didn't see it. That was that was like in episode four or five, it was early, early, early. And uh it's a little bit later than that. It's it's later than that, it's later than that, yeah. Yeah, so we'd had some track record up to that point, but yeah, that was it in the um, I don't know, the that that's one of those things that like it continues to come back and drip into my conscience, like when I'm thinking about how I am out in the world. Like, am I being am I facilitating right now or am I participating? Am I am I kind of outside of it trying to manage it or am I in it? You know, and um there's even a couple times, LeBron, you said I was telling you about how I I coached some clients one time, and you're like, Did you see how John just went black with that client? Because I was like, I just when I was like, look, look, let me tell you something. Like something about that little thing. That little thing right there. You identified that as being black, but but if we're gonna get deeper and broader, like sky full of elephants, like you know, we are we are a collective. We are a I see you, you see me, I feel you, you feel me. And you know, when you when you try instead of that, instead of like mixing it up and let's let's see each other and feel each other, let's like let's stay a little a little separated and kind of put on the performance a little bit and keep things tight and controlled. And it's been good for me, man, because I just I always remind myself of that. Like I come on, let's face it. We're here and we know we want people to like us. I want people to like us. I want people to listen. I want to make it good for them, so I want to explain things, I want to, but then in that I can lose some of that authenticity and some of that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Let's just you know, it's interesting, John, because when you talked about that, and you have the ability to code switch, like me and Antonio have to code switch as a part of survival. So when we code switch, then white people tend to let their guard down and be more receptive. When you code switch into black, we open up our arms to bring you in and hug you. So it's uh the the coats, when it comes that way, that's why we're like, oh, you switch it in. Come on in. You want a piece of pie? What you want? Oh my god, want some drink?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Still don't put raisins in the casserole, but yes. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Well, first of all, don't call it a casserole.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

What am I supposed to call it? Raisins in the potato salad. Potato salad. John. That's uh I failed my I failed my training. Man, I got right, I got right to the end. Right to the end. I got through the midterms, okay. Wrote that paper. I got my blue book, right? This I'm living that nightmare. I'm living the nightmare that LeBron shared in episode.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

You know, I know you guys seen that thing on Instagram where the guy's calling 911 for help. And they go, Are you white? Yeah, I'm white. And they ask him all these questions, and he they almost think he's white. And the last one is say the word ask. He was like, Axe? They're like, You black. We hanging up. He got right to the finish line.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Say potato salad, casserole. No, it's a casserole.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I wonder what that human thing is about, you know, seeing yourself like larger than life, like on a dick screen or like you coming home and seeing Sabah and your family watching you on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yes. I'm like, ooh. That's cool that they do that, though. That was my first time. Like I love that, you know, they embrace this and want to. Yes. That's cool. Man, it's a lot of support, man.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

A lot of love, man. But they mainly listen for you and Antonio. So I kind of do that. They do, they do like we know you already. We know you're crazy. And John and Antonio got it.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Hey, man. What do they say? The further I further I get from home, the more I know. There you go, man. If Jesus wasn't accepted in his hometown, you think I got a shot? I love that. Like, there's still scriptures that I hold on to, man, like that one. They're like, like, because he literally comes up. Of course, we're talking about Jesus now. We're talking about like how you know the Jesus said this. He's like, you know, no prophet is accepted in his hometown. And LeBron's saying that Sabah and the family watches us for you and me and not for him. But I'm like, but it's what it's one of my favorite passages because Jesus comes back to his hometown. And he's, you know, talking all this stuff. What's up? Yeah. And everyone's like, they literally, they're like, miss me, bitches. They're like, isn't this Jesus? Isn't this J Joseph and Mary?

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Joseph's son.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Isn't that James' brother? They literally isn't that James' brother. Like, they're just talking this shit about all he was was a dude showing up talking all this, you know, heavenly stuff. Not even heavenly, but just you know, all this other stuff. Like, who's this guy? Oh.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Well, if he didn't have a chance, you know, you don't have a chance coming home.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Right. And my to be to be very clear, my mother-in-law watches because LeBron is sexy, and John, you say really good stuff. You know what I didn't know? And you just brought it up to me, John, when you said uh James's brother, because I forgot Jesus had a brother. He didn't have brother.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

He had more than one, because and he had more than one sister. Because they say, Aren't his sisters here? Isn't he the brother? So Joseph or was God the daddy too. No, it was those are Joseph's kids.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Oh, about what I was gonna say was uh learned from Dr. Carter when he said that um Jesus doesn't talk about what to believe. Jesus talks about what to do when you think about the Bible as an instruction manual. Even if you take the the the scurrilous pieces, since I'm on five dollar words. Scurrulous that's still telling that's an instruction manual, it's telling you what to do. It was just a a way that I hadn't thought about the Bible. I hadn't thought about sort of religion. There are a lot of what to do, right, and what not to do. That was a Seymour moment for me.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah, yeah. No, that's I think a lot of Christianity, modern Christianity these days, is so focused on what you believe and what you don't believe, and not focused on what you do and don't do, and uh it's a big mistake.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

But it's it seems like those are the people, right, that that that arguing about we've talked about um the people who believe in what the founders intended and the people who believe what the founders wrote. And it feels like that same like that same missing, like we're missing this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Like he's saying do this. He's not saying believe this. Right? And if you just just follow the do this, yeah. Yeah, I think you'd be all right.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

But you follow the do this and you get in all kinds of trouble because then pretty soon you're helping your enemy, you you're you're like say you're you're saying the rich people need to give more money, like, and then you're coming from people's pocketbooks, and then you're a socialist, so behave like Jesus, you're gonna not be in the right camp politically.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Well, you see, they killed his ass.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

That's what I'm saying. He was murdered by the state. Dude was killed by the state, he was a threat to the power structure. All right, LeBron, you reminded me of something about a big thing that I learned, and this was early on, was how you said, you know, you're just getting tired of having to talk about race. Like you would just love to not talk about racism. And this podcast started with intention, all of us had intentions on it, and one of my intentions was to educate my white brothers and sisters, which meant anything we were talking about, I was gonna be pulling in the white perspective and I was gonna be translating it for white people, and I was gonna be like, Well, what do white people think about this? Well, when you say this, make sure. And you all taught me, and then I've since seen it over and over again, how that was centering whiteness. Like it just continue. Like, if I take every conversation and try to make it understandable for white people, I'm I start to get a glimpse of what life must be like for the two of you as you go on. And I had to make an adjustment and be like, John, you know, there's two other people on this podcast too who want to talk about what they want to talk about, and you can't just keep bringing it back to white people, bringing it back to explaining to white people. But that's the rub, man. That's the whole thing. That that that's the that's one of the reasons why you got to be so fucking exhausted, man. Because I see it now that you showed me that, then I see it all the time. I'm like, there it is again. I'm doing it again. I'm centering whiteness, I'm making it the norm.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

And I have the same thing I've realized because while you were trying to do that, I've always tried to explain the plight of black people through Jews.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

So I'm always you got it written down.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

As soon as he started, I was like, he's gonna bring Jews into this.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 41:07

But but here's, and I was listening to this uh uh when you talked about you were talking about Nigel, you were saying he would be a uh uh named he would be a Jew named Adolf James. Yeah, and you didn't say he was Jewish. And I think what what hits, at least for me, the way I've been trained, is what hits this when you say Jew this, right? It's like the Instagram that you sent us where you're like the algorithm has finally caught up with me. It's the guy is the comedian who's like, I just like to count how many Jews there are and everything. And you get the joke until you realize that there are actually people who do that.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

And that's what, and and so that's what it sounds like, as opposed to saying, you know, Nigel would be Jewish and he'd be named Adolph James, which is a description, and it it encapsulates the conversation for me when I was listening to it. It encapsulated the conversation in a different way than you would say, he's Adolf James, and he's a Jew. Yeah, a Jew hits harder than he is Jewish, and and not only harder, but different, like it's a it's a different, like it's almost like it's a pejorative as opposed to a description.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

And you and I have talked about like I've asked if I said that Albert Einstein was a Jew versus Albert Einstein was Jewish, is that different?

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yeah, yes. Really? Yeah, yes, and you're making and and and in saying that, like if you were talking about Albert Einstein, when you say Albert Einstein is a Jew, to me, that's holding up the fact that he was Jewish as a deflection toward the attacks that were coming at him in the mid-40s, right? And so it's it's like, you know, and I'm black. What? You know, it's it's that's a badger pride. But when you're talking about somebody who's not in the public eye, and you say he's a Jew, then it feels like you're punching down, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Ah, I get it, I get it, I get it. It's it has the the language use and the rhythm of bigotry. Like like people who are bigoted, yeah, would wouldn't say Albert Einstein is Jewish, they would say he is a Jew in a pejorative way. So that it has that same sound, even if it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. So that language then is something I have because I was not even aware of that distinction or how, because I wouldn't say that about my son in that way, but I but now when you explain it, now I get it. Yeah, because I will say I was always confused between someone who's a Jew versus Jewish. Because in my mind, Jewish is like you're trying to be a Jew. You're not really a Jew, but Jewish. Blackish, like blackish. So that's how that's one. So when I say a Jew, I mean someone who is a Jew. But when I hear Jewish, it's people like, ah, like that's really funny. Yeah, that's how I interpret it. So just like blackish, like I said. Yeah. That's not that he's blackish.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Seth Myers made that joke in his last or like two specials ago where he's like, he's like, I'm not Jewish. You all need to know I'm not. And he talks about where he's from and he's a total wasp. And he's like, but with the name Seth and the way I am, you can sound Jewers.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

He's like, it could be Jewish. Could be Jewish.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah. But yeah. Oh, I'm glad you pointed that out. Because it does, it doesn't matter. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

I detracted you. You were talking about the same way you bring things back to the black people through Jew, through Jewishness, through Jewasity Judaism. The Jewish Nazis? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Because their experience ishkenazi, Ash, what it was Ashkenazi. Um, the Ashkenazi Jews Sephardic, don't forget the Sephardic. Don't forget the Sephardic. Yep. And it's like someone who grows up in a black neighborhood, and they feel like I grew up around black people. So I can speak the language. I can say stuff that other people can't say. Because those that's where I grew up. So me when I talk about Jews, because I've been so indoctrinated in the community and taught the kids and been to Shabbat, hung out with the rabbis. So I'm always authentically saying it because I was so much a part of the community that that other place, I got some issues. But the nation, uh the state, yeah. Now we gotta talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah, no, Israel is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

A lot of Jewish people would say the exact same thing and do exactly, yes. And so that's why I say those things, but I don't know any other ethnic group who's had similar experiences as black people, but who have thrived to that level. So I have to use them as an example because white people don't care about black people or Latin people suffering. But if I talk about Jews in parallel, then they have a different sensibility because they can they can understand that and not take feel any guilt. Because like if you talk about black or brown suffering, then white people feel guilt and they shut down. But if I talk about let's talk about the Jews and what the Nazis did to them, they can engage in that conversation. Yeah, have sympathy for the Jews, can understand like why they would want their own state and and all this. And so that's why I always have to draw that analogy to get people to understand. That's just always been my thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Do you think there's there's some of uh just the identity, the self-identification too, like seeing just from a pure skin color perspective, a white person seeing someone else that's you know, white, that's Jewish, like they see themselves in that person more easily? Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Uh oh, yeah, I know, huh? It's that one's complicated.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Now that one complicated because I hate you so much. I hate you so much. I hate you so much. I hate you. We always go back to the 1936, right? The Olympics and the and the Jesse American Olympic team. Well, not Jesse Owens, but that too. But there was a whole like the United States sent white people to investigate the Nazis before the Games, and the white people came back and said, Oh, they good. It's all good. No, they ain't really doing nothing to the Jews, it's all good. Wow. So the United States sent the American Olympic team and then capitulated to the Germans and didn't let the Jewish runners run. And in in medieval Europe, right, and LeBron has said this before, in medieval Europe, there where there were no folks of color or not enough folks of color to make a difference in the population, Jews were the people that were castigated. Jews were the people, right, whether they looked white or not. They didn't go to church, they weren't Christian, and so they were the ones who were excluded. I don't know that white people look at Jews differently than they look at other white people because they have castigated them the same way they've castigated people of color when there were no people of color in the room or beyond. Right? And that's why, like that guilt about it is how the state of Israel was created, because they had some brown people they could push off the land and say, okay, here, we didn't let you into our country, and so a bunch of you got killed. Here you go. You can have this land that we've taken from brown people. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

What uh when you think about back on any of our guests, Dr. Carter, Alan, Louis Bet, Julie. We talked about Dr. Carter a little bit already.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

They're all fantastic. I want to share the growth I've seen in each of you over these last 30 episodes. Because I remember Antonio in the beginning would have to say.

SPEAKER_04 49:28

I just clinched the city.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

And Antonio, and when it would get hot, Antonio would just kind of fade back and he would just get hot. He'd be hotter than fish creeks, and he would, and I could see the MF right on his lips, and he would just, and I'm like, say, you know what I mean? But then he'd do that. Yep, that's it. That's his move right there. But then he evolved, and I can't remember exactly what episode, because it was an evolution of coming into his own and processing that and then sharing it in a certain way. I appreciate it. Because I know me and John would look at you sometimes like, say it, Antonio. It's right there. Say it. Like you got the Enterabango. And so I appreciate you, man, for for evolving in that way. So I've seen it over the episodes. So to me, now you're you're the comfortable Antonio that I've always known, even through the podcast. Like you got to a point and you kind of froze it, but now you're you're you're into your groove, man. So I appreciate you uh for that evolution, my man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. And then you, John, damn it.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

All right. Well, that's the time we have for night. Let me facilitate this now and then. Uh obviously the white guys will wrap this up.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

No, man. And and the same same thing for you, John. I think we all evolved and have found our voice. But now that you're really speaking your truth, John, to me, it's taken it. It's taken it to a whole nother level. Now I think you've you've hit your stride. But I think you have like three or four more levels, though. The Augustine Files, as we would call it.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

You said it early on, man. Like we've always had love for each other, but we also floated floated away and floated back in and and had different levels of relationship between the three of us. And uh it's just cool that that I I tell people when I tell them about the podcast, first of all, they just if they haven't heard it, they just think it's the coolest idea ever. I still, yeah. I still your line, LeBron. I'm like, I say we are. LeBron says we are what the founding fathers don't even know that didn't even know they wanted. But then I just, you know, again, I like knowing that every couple weeks I'm gonna hang with the two of you. Like you, you this is like church to me, man. Like, and I mean that I think when people sometimes you go to church out of obligation, it's like, well, every week I know that I'm gonna hear something that's gonna be inspiring, and I'm gonna hear some songs that I really like. We're lucky that we've decided to do this if if not if only just because to quote Antonio, I just like kicking it with you guys. There you go. Every time.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

That is real. No, they say hang out with people smarter than you. So I do.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

That's better luck next time, Antonio. No, aim higher, brother.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Aim higher.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

What I was gonna say was uh, and this is what what got me to it. There's a I think we've all come, right? And LeBron, I I appreciate you uh at once owning your inheritance, right? Papa James and Mama James have poured into you. Um you funny mother.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Yes, dude.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

And when we started, that's who you were, right? Not that that was inauthentic, but you were like, Oh, I got shit, I got a bang, hi hat, right? No so boss, I don't see his race nowhere else. Oh my god, dude.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

I think top top one, top one, top one time.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

That is the best clip. And you have seen less and less of a need to do that. It's become more fluid because it's been more about right, the the God, the the is God racist? That was a real question, right? And it it garnered some real conversation. Um but it takes a certain amount of confidence, self-confidence, and it takes an ability to be vulnerable in ways that um we are not usually. And so as you have over the 30 episodes, I really I appreciate that, and that that is part of why I've learned to say say more, right? Because you've said some shit that you really think, like right now we're asleep, and when we sleep, that's when we're really awake.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

That was some crazy shit. And I was like Matrix over here, man.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

Say more. Like, what is it you're right? I'm not necessarily validating that perspective. Right, just say more. Just say more. Because you're not, you know, you might have been making that up, but I don't I don't think you were. No, I wasn't. Right. And so, you know, there's a there's a confidence in that, there's a vulnerability in that, and the longer we've gone, it's not that you that's still funny. You've always got shit to say. Because that's that's been that's the that's the development I've seen.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

I appreciate that. Well, yes, and and as you say it, and I reflect, I'm like, yeah, you're right. Because my intentions were initially that you were historian, you were gonna be bringing the knowledge, John was gonna bring in the communication. So I'm like, where am I gonna fit in? So I said I'm just an angry black man. So I said, if I come with punch lines, that'll be my place. And then I was like, ah, it's not enough. It's not really a representation of who I am. And so I've been trying to consciously just over time slowly, like I said, evolve. Like all of us have evolved over the last 30 episodes.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Oh yeah. No, you man, you all are both uh I'm I'm so proud to be called your friend and brother. I really am. I mean, God, well, I'm so yeah, I feel like you and I always had love and respect for each other, but we didn't really get to be that close in our younger years. Younger years, right, right. I was Antonio and I pledged together, but he's my sans, and just you know, deep, deep, deep. Even when I was acting a fool, this fool kept showing up for me. So, you know, so we have a lot of history. So it that one of the coolest things about this whole process was like straight up just getting to know you better and be like, damn, I I knew he was good. I didn't know he was this good. As a man, as a dad, um, as a friend, as a professional. I mean, you're just you're stellar, man. You're just exemplary, and it's it's so cool to um to just be in your circle. I'm a little upset that I'm no longer your favorite white person. Um, and I got some words for Gavin Newsome.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

And I get or might be slipping down, man.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Is he slipping down?

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Okay, yeah. I would rather I go up to the market. He was like the market. He he he he kind of and you went up. So he he's more like Bitcoin, I'm realizing now. So he had his moment. He had his moment.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

I don't know. He's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Yeah, Antonio. I've been there there were times where I listened back and I'm like, I don't know how he connected all six of those thoughts so cogently. Damn, this dude's a teacher, man. Like I'll listen, I'll be like, okay, he's wandering into okay, he started here. Talk about the weave. This is the real weave right here. He starts here, he's going over there. Oh, he's building his case, and then he's bringing in oh, and then his receipts, and then the facts, and boom, like he comes back. You know what I'm talking about? Like, it just Oh, I know exactly. And when you hear it the second time, you're like, damn, you took us on a journey, bro. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm amazed at your ability to connect all the dots.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Yes, you know so crazy though, John, about Antonio? I don't he knows he has this skill and gift, but he can retain everything. Yeah, like everything he reads, every song he hears, he retains everything, every word, I do, and then can catalog it and put it together and then deliver it back in an eloquent way. Like you were saying, he'll create the callbacks, dude? The callback. Because even if he didn't, even if he didn't edit our podcast, this motherfucker would still remember everything for podcasts. He uses that as a front, like, well, you know, I listen to it. Well, I listened to it seven times. No, you have to listen to it once, and you have to listen to the call. That shit trips me the hell out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

That's a brain on him. That's a brain on that dude.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

It's, you know, you all both talked about what you get from your parents, and it's the peace that I I get from my dad. Oh, yeah. Like I often say that my my father thinks in paragraphs. Um we've done this at the end of the last three episodes. We've been like, all right, so this is the end of season one. Guess what? This is the end of season one because this episode will drop on December 29th. And so season two starts in 2026, regardless of when we record it. It don't matter.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 59:08

It don't matter. Um, and so what I actually have thought about, and it's with the amazing amount of media that's out there, YouTube uploads a million hours of whatever a day. And but this is going to live somewhere for someone for as long as digital is a thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Yes, true.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

And so, you know, they say that when a tiger dies, it leaves its pelt. When a man dies, he leaves his name. And we have all added to that in doing this. That's what I've appreciated, you know, and sure, I'm editing, and so I listen a lot of times. And you know, John, you said it in the last episode. Um that you listen just because like it's a replay of us kicking it, but it's a recollection, right? And people it's funny, people um take so many pictures nowadays, but they never look at them.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

I was thinking about that the other day.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

As if the taking of the picture is the memory itself, right? Damn. What we've put out, you know, what Will has helped us elevate and put out there is is a contained version, is a package. And it started as a conversation about race in America, it started as a conversation of understanding, feels like it's grown into you know us having a good time. And there will be times where we talk about those things. But like Rob Reiner is a master storyteller, is a piece of American history, and we've lost him. His last story is out there, and yet he's not gone because he sock sock shoe shoe. He went Harry Met Sally, he a few good men. Yep, and we've contributed in our small way, and it's growing, right? You did one speech, LeBron did three in a day.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

You know, I need to know I got Will in my back pocket too, in case it happens to meet LeBron. Let's get to know yes, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

Yeah, right. Um but like we're contributing to that. And that to me is important, and that to me has been one of the things that I've come to and realized.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

And I'm curious. I would love for to hear from each of you what is one piece of advice or one takeaway you would offer to our listeners. What I would want for our listeners to to take away or to practice would be the four agreements from courageous conversations. We have a fraternity brother, Glenn Singleton, who's one of the foremost experts on conversations about race in the country. His book literally changed my life at Harvard. I mean, I fell down in the snow crying because of the reflection I did because of his work. But his four agreements, we actually practice all the time. Number one, speak your truth. Because no one can argue your truth. Two, to stay engaged and stay engaged because of number three, which is experience discomfort. When most people experience discomfort, they try to disengage. So the thing is to lean into the discomfort, as as Lynn would say. And then last, expect and accept non-closure. We're not gonna save the world or fix things, but we have something to offer, and if it doesn't do anything but spark more conversation, it's great. So we we live the four agreements, and I wish people would see us as one example of how to express and engage in those four agreements.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

I'll take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

I got a message for white people. But I'll but I'm gonna broaden the aperture to include everybody. Don't spend your energy defending how you're not part of the problem. Instead, spend your energy seeing how you could become part of the solution. And I mean this in in all the things that we've talked about every episode, but I just I find that in this era where everybody's just shouting their point of view from the mountaintop instead of getting deep, uh introspection really matters. It really matters. Like looking at looking at ourselves. I mean, everything we've talked about tonight, a lot of it has to do with having others that you can reflect and allow us to see more about ourselves. And it's a beautiful thing when you can discover where you have been part of the problem because then now you can be part of the solution, and it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. You know, what are you gonna spend your energy on? Is it gonna be on defending why you're not part of the problem or on actually trying to discover how you can be part of the solution? And that's one thing that I've learned and that I would love for our listeners and anybody to consider it's not original, but give people their flowers when they're here to smell them.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

And take the time to spend the time. Like nobody is so busy, nobody really cares what it is you have done if you haven't spent time to find out what they've done. And so, you know, I said it earlier, John said it tonight. But like honestly, we we don't get off, even though you don't hear it in the edit, we don't get off this recording until we say, hey, when's the time next time we're gonna kick it? And that just means the three of us here, that doesn't mean like you know, somebody may, we may it may be Saturday, we may be here. Yeah, LeBron may have a birthday party, we may be there. You know, we'll be there. Like, spend the time because it's important and it's the one thing that none of us controls. True. Um, so I have the question for season two, episode one.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

Oh, oh, get the teaser.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

As we were having this conversation, it's got a musical under underpinning.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Give it to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

You're gonna spring it on us now? No, you're gonna uh look at this. Look at the delight in his face. For those of you who aren't watching, Jim Jiminy Cricket just showed up. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

Oh, Bizmarke.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

For the last time in 2025.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

Yes. Hey. Left on Founders. Go mob. Thank you guys so much, my brothers. Thank you. Mob go. Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at three for the founders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok. Or send us a text through Buzz Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left On Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. Oh, yeah. Isn't that weird? That is so that's probably the reflection off of his window. Right? Is he waving? I'm waving it. It's like seeing yourself on the jumbotron. Oh I said, always so exciting, man. It's like I'm here. I can see me here, but I'm also up there. Oh my god, I'm also up there. It's that's such a thrill.