Ep. 36 - Black, White, and Christian Nationalism

Airing March 30, 2026 | 1 hr, 57 min

We open, as all great intellectual journeys do, with a word: kerfuffle. Turns out it’s Scottish. Turns out the “fuffle” means to dishevel and the “car-” is a Gaelic twist. Turns out Antonio, Jon, and Lybroan will spend a not-insignificant portion of your Monday morning defending this information with the energy of men who just found out their favorite film was also a book. We also stop by the UCLA Black Alumni Association’s Winston C. Doby Legacy Scholarship gala, where the room went predictably, beautifully crazy when Kareem Abdul-Jabbar walked in and casually mentioned that Jackie Robinson and Ralph Bunche personally recruited him to Westwood. You know — just Monday things.

Then we get to work. Because Episode 36 is the one where the guys pull out the dictionary — literally — and refuse to let the word nationalism stay slippery. Black nationalism: community control, economic autonomy, the Greenwood District built from nothing and burned to the ground by people who couldn’t stand to see it standing. White nationalism: the architecture of exclusion dressed up in the language of heritage. And Christian nationalism: what happens when a political ideology borrows the aesthetic of a faith tradition and starts holding prayer services inside the Department of Defense. Pete Hegseth called what’s happening in Iran a “holy war.” A church played “America the Beautiful” over footage of fighter jets. And somewhere in a congressional hearing, a Texas lawmaker had the audacity — the nerve — to remind his colleagues that Jesus never once mentioned abortion or homosexuality, and maybe, maybe, “love God and love people” ought to be the whole sermon. 

What makes this episode sing is that it refuses to let the abstractions float. The question isn’t just what is white nationalism — it’s whether there’s a version that isn’t soaked in violence, and whether the honest answer to that question demands a reframe entirely. They invoke Garvey, Malcolm, Du Bois, Booker T., Carter G. Woodson. They invoke Ona Judge, who escaped George Washington’s household, and George Washington, who chased her until he died. They invoke Lin-Manuel Miranda on the power of the right words in the right order, and Eli Pope from Scandal on what it costs to be Black in America. And they invoke Marco Rubio asking Trump’s permission to speak Spanish to Latino journalists, followed by Pete Hegseth announcing — with the confidence of a man who has never once asked himself a hard question — that he “just speaks American.” Three for the Founders is not just a podcast. It’s an argument with history, and history, as usual, does not get the last word.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok and let us know. Til the next time...left on founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I was uh I was asking LeBron about uh Saturday night about the uh UCLA Black Alumni Association's final Winston Dobie scholarship legacy dinner. Could it have a longer celebration?

SPEAKER_06 0:16

Gay luck, gay luck extravaganza. Gay lucky black stravaganza.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Black Ganza.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

So black tell that tell that tell that story again, LeBron. Like what you what what you said.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Yeah, I mean it was so crazy. So this lady was um attorney lot, I think uh I forget her first name, I think it's Cheryl Lott, was getting awarded, and it was surprised, and then Chris Spencer said, Come on out, Captain, and then Kareem Abdul Jabbar came out and the room went crazy.

SPEAKER_06 0:43

I would have lost my mind.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yes. But check this out. So he's sitting on stage telling this story and goes, you know what? Uh I was one of the most sought-after basketball players in the country, and I was in New York, and he said, You know how why I came to UCLA? He said, Because somebody called me on the phone when I'm in high school, and so hello. He goes, This is Jackie Robinson. I know from UCLA. Bro. D you know Jackie Robinson.

SPEAKER_06 1:09

And Jackie wrote him a letter too, like a handful letter.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Yes. Yep. And Ralph Butch. If you get contacted by those two, it's a rap. Bro, I mean, what else can you know? Sign, seal, deliver, deliver.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I'm yours.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

We're brothers. We're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_06 1:33

Give me a high five. All right, cut and print. Beautiful guys. Dynomite. That it.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets the breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years. And now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you've always wanted to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_06 2:04

Bro, when you showed us that video and he was building that story up, I thought when he's like, and you never guess who contacted me, I'm thinking John Wooden. It must be John Wooden. That's what I thought. I thought it was gonna be John Wooden. He's like, Jaggy Robertson and Ralph Bunch, no building.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

It's getting hot in here. Okay, I'll read your shirt without seeing it if you read my shirt.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

You gotta explain that German one you're wearing it, Antonio. I still can't figure it out.

SPEAKER_06 2:29

Dude, I like me, I like the word kerfuffle.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

To cause a kerfuffle. Off off to cause a kerfuffle. That's so great.

SPEAKER_06 2:37

Oh LeBron, that reminds me.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

I love you know, usually I pick out my own shirts. Yes. And then Daniela walked out and said, and I said, I believe that will make an appearance on the pod. Because Captain T-shirt, I was in the building. Off to cause a kerfuffle, as we often do.

SPEAKER_06 2:55

As we often do.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

As I'm told that I'm supposed to remember that I'm always a teacher, regardless of what I do. And we put this out in the world, and so I'm teaching people that they should get in good trouble because I am off to cause a kerfuffle.

SPEAKER_06 3:10

Such a good word. I love that one. I mean, I I latch on to words so hard. Like I love kerfuffle. I love shenanigans. I love calling people, I love calling people rap scallions and scallywags.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Whoa, scallywags. That's do you actually wags? That's that's like the official N-word right there, dude. Scallywag.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Like you scalp, did you call me a scallywag?

SPEAKER_06 3:32

But I'm serious. Like, so do you remember when you and I met in Oakland years ago? It was like seven or eight years ago. Of course I remember that, yes. We hadn't seen each other in a long time. Yes. And we started texting, and I was just so excited. I'm like, man, I'm gonna see, I'm gonna see LeBron. And then you said something like, All right, we're gonna meet here, and then the shenanigans will begin. And I just never forgot. He said, shenanigans. I was like, oh, we're gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

We're gonna have a real good time.

SPEAKER_06 3:59

Shenanigans, dude.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Oh, but kerfuffle. Kerfuffle is a bridge too far for LeBron. He's like, tell me about that German. He's like, tell me about that German words you got on there.

SPEAKER_06 4:08

He's like, I'm married to the person who speaks German, so I can I can only take so much. There you go. Do the Germans have a lot of people. I doubt it. Is it? It doesn't, it doesn't feel German.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

What does it feel like to you? But I see in that double F. I just it just sounds that sounds like a German breakfast. That sounds like a German start starting off German at least.

SPEAKER_06 4:29

Well that's the one. I have an electronic device by which I can ascertain these kind of thing information.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

If you said chicken and waffles in German, I think it would be kerfuffle.

SPEAKER_06 4:39

Isn't this exactly what you guys want to spend your time? Kerfuffle mean meaning a commotion or fuss, originated in early 19th century Scottish English, deriving from the older Scots verb fuffle to dishevel or throw into disorder, and the prefix car or curr, likely from Gaelic, car meaning twist or turn.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

So twist into uh fuffle.

SPEAKER_06 5:02

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Fuffle.

SPEAKER_06 5:04

Man. But but your instincts are spot on, LeBron, because the Germans have a word for everything. They're like, do you know that feeling after you have your second tea and you ate your schnitzel and you're slightly sated, but you still want to eat some more, but you can't because you're on a diet. Yeah, we call that a Gerschnickensneisen.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Hey, dude, do you are doing you've got to go to Germany with me? I'm like, he's with me, y'all. That's how we do it.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

So much trouble.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

I love it, though. You know, so funny though, the th you said that we just got this device that they have in Germany, where you get a boil, a boiled egg, and you put this silver thing on top, and you pull it like a sling, and you s and you let it go, and it cracks a perfect, cracks the top of the egg so you can take the egg off. Because in Germany, they eat the egg inside of the shell. Oh no.

SPEAKER_06 5:56

And you got one for for home.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Yes, and the the word is like 37 letters long. Yeah, bro. And it means like the silver thing that you put on top of an egg that you pull to crack to pull off the top.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

That's what I'm saying. One word.

SPEAKER_05 6:08

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

And see, I'm just sitting here listening to you describe it because that sounds like uh huevito a la copa, which is what the Chileans eat, where they boil the egg and then they just peel it off all around and then they crush it up with some toast.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

And yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

So I'm like, oh, that would be uh super easy. Instead of having to peel it, you just snap the what do you call it, a ferschnikens nine up against the egg, and then there you go.

SPEAKER_06 6:36

Well, you all remember, I think it was the eighties or nineties when they they were advertising Volkswagen with the with the word uh farfign.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Farfignogen, yes farfignogen.

SPEAKER_06 6:45

I love that was like that's the feeling you get when you're driving and you're like whatever, like farfignogen. And we're all like, wait, what? There's a word for that, and then so they have these weird words that are 18 syllables and k's and f's and the umlauts and everything over the vowels, and then they'll say some literal sentence, wie drinken gut wein und beer. We drink good wine and beer. It's like we and so English is very Germanic in some cases. Very much so.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

See, but then I my my suspicion, right, is that uh Volkswagen, right, and it's Volkswagen, Volkswagen.

SPEAKER_06 7:20

Volkswagen means a mover of people.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Right. So I'm glad they named the car company that, uh, although I think it was probably named after somebody. But what I was gonna say is they could have made up Fafernogen.

SPEAKER_06 7:33

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

As a marketing employ, and we'd be like, oh, look at those Germans. They know they have all these words for different things.

SPEAKER_06 7:43

That's true. It could have been globalized. Not in the age of Google, though, but back then we would have Brian was deep into that, Google.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

Thank you. Volkswagen is was was made by my boy Hitler. Volkswagen means the people's car.

SPEAKER_06 7:58

Hold on. Tell me about the name Hitler should never be preceded by the words my boy. My boy.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Not literally my boy.

SPEAKER_06 8:07

Bro, but uh, term of affinity. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Yeah, that's like Trevor Noah talks about somebody in South Africa when he was growing up, used the DJ name Hitler, because in South Africa it didn't have any different like we have another names episode to do, but that's we do later down the pike. So LeBron, Volkswagen, Hitler, go, not your boy.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Yes, so Hitler named the company, you know, he he created the company Volkswagen. It's the people's car. That's what Volkswagen means. The people's car. Yeah. And so I don't know how to do it. Did you know that or did you just Google it? I knew it, and then when John said his definition, I was like, I think it's the people's car. So that had to verify. I don't want to say something to be wrong there.

SPEAKER_06 8:53

Wait, which Hitler are we talking about?

SPEAKER_03 8:56

I can't. I can't. Adidas, I'm not wearing my sweatshirt because I'm out to cause a kerfuffle. Kerfuffle. Ike I am your father. I know I knew the number one where he's like, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 9:13

All right, I'm gonna say the whitest shit ever. So I went to trade I went to Trader Joe's today. So far, you're on target. Well done. Yeah. By the way, greatest store on planet Earth, worst parking lots in the universe. We know this. Thank you. Thank you. A clip today about a Trader Joe's, like the guys who designed the Trader Joe's parking lot, and they're like, well, let's have a purpose. Turn that one space into three. We can make that into three spaces. Yeah. They'll have to back out at the same time and coordinate together. Like, let's make chaos happen. But no, I'm in Trader Joe's, and this shirt got like three people like, ah, I see you. And I'm like, if you want this shirt to get some play, go to Trader Joe's Airbnb. Trader Joe's Whole Foods. There we go.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Or Costco. I often wear some of the shirts that I wear on camera to Costco. And I get the I I get I get white people, I get Jewish people, I get Asian people, I get black people, I get Latino people, I get Native American people, I get everybody in the vest, and it'll say like drink coffee, fight hard, empower women, and I get the nod. You get the nod. I get I get I get the nod.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Dude, this is wrecking me back.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

So back when I lived in Caucasian Acres, and uh I think it was it was I love that it's officially named that Caucasian Acres.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

Yeah uh I I had a I had a uh hold up, hold up. Why am I why am I tripping? Why am I tripping? I had the sweatshirt with um Black Lives Matter with the with the fist, you know, the the logo. And so I mean it was not a popular emblem in my neighborhood, just so you know what I mean. And uh we had dude, you know how uh a little kid who goes to school, like maybe a second or third grader, and they show up with their new shoes and they like they walk a little different, wanting people to notice their shoes, or they'll they'll like look and see if people are noticing me. So I knew, dude, I'm so embarrassed. I was wearing it one day at home, working from home, and we had one one of our mailmen, male persons, male carriers, was a black suit. You know, was he male? He was male, and he was a so he could be a mailman. Okay, so he was a mailman, yeah. And uh, you know, I I knew him and you know, dude the nod sometimes, and one time he was coming, I saw him coming, I was wearing my I was wearing my Black Lives Matter sweatshirt, and I was like that seven-year-old. I like I made sure I was out front. Like, I would I didn't even have anything to do, but I pretended like I was picking some weeds or something. I was like, I was like, Ally from Ally, I got you. Ally. But I just I wanted some extra credit from from uh LeBron or whatever his name was.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

You walked out and said, Thanks, DeMarcus. Thanks for my email.

SPEAKER_06 12:02

He's like, my name is Roger. Um I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

Man, John, you set this one up so good, man. I'm gonna just get it out the way, man, because it's too easy, man. Every day you would get blackmailed, huh? Oh my god. He seemed too easy, John. It was too easy.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Hi, my name is John. I set him up. Hi, my name is LeBron. I knock him down.

SPEAKER_06 12:35

I knock him down. I drop mics. We got your dad jokes, we got your black jokes.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

Oh, we got them all, baby. We're just getting started. This is genetic.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

I told you, out to cause a kerfuffle.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

We caused quite a kerfuffle in the first 10 minutes, dude.

SPEAKER_06 12:54

It's in the zeitgeist.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

It's all beautiful. Welcome to Three for the Founders, episode 36. Sure. Cheers watching. You have enjoyed our t-shirt conversation. To those listening, maybe you slide on over to YouTube. Boom. Who knows? It might be a visual treat that you didn't know you needed until you got there. Um today's episode is going to be a little different. We always talk about topics, but we all three had questions. And so as we tried to decide what we were going to do today, we decided we were going to do all three, because three being the magic number. Hey, there's no reason we can't. So if it sounds like we're going here, there, and everywhere, it's because we are.

SPEAKER_06 13:36

How do you stay on target when you have three targets? I don't know, ask Israel. And I'm writing these things down. I'm like, nationalism, white versus black nationalism, AI and church and state. Oh, sure, we can cover these things in two hours or less. I mean, God, every one of these topics is worth a week-long summit with the nation's leaders and think tanks.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

Here's what the question is, Tony What's the difference between black nationalism, white nationalism, and Christian nationalism? That's heavy. But I didn't drop us in like without a life jacket.

SPEAKER_06 14:18

What's the life jacket exactly? I don't see that.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

I'm saying we had no, we we talked about well, like we eased into the conversation. Yeah. We talked about the captain and Jackie Robinson and T-shirts and Fafernougan.

SPEAKER_06 14:35

Is there a lot of stab at it? Yeah, go ahead, LeBron.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Now I was gonna let one of y'all take the first stab at it.

SPEAKER_06 14:42

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Why are we stabbing things? It's so violent.

SPEAKER_06 14:46

You know, I started with this when we were thinking about it when we were we were preparing. In the way that I often do, which is looking up the meaning of a word because it always teases out some extra nuance and depth and layers. And nationalism, spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation. I found that interesting. That was the first definition. And the second definition was devotion and loyalty to one's own country/slash patriotism. See episode Antonio always knows the episodes. Yeah. Patriotism? Season one.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

We did we did symbolism in in episode five, but I don't remember. I do remember us doing patriotism.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

But when when I was thinking about that, it was interesting that the second definition was devotion and loyalty to one's own country and patriotism, which is the first thing that comes to mind any with the word nationalism, whether you're saying black or white or Christian. But the first definition fascinated me, spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation. And what we're describing is divided nation, because you're talking about black nationalism, white nationalism, Christian nationalism. And it brought me back to my former days. I am a recovering fundamentalist preacher. Former fundamentalist preacher. I am a recovering Christian conservative. Former Christian conservative. And back in my early days, this would have been 2004 when John Kerry and John Edwards were running against, I guess, the re-election of George W. Bush, 2004. Does that sound right?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Yes, that is correct.

SPEAKER_06 16:20

Thank you. And so I was a Republican at the time and pretty conservative, and it largely had to do with what?

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Now that was me looking in dismay. You formally said that I was looking at you with like some angster chagrin. I didn't know that. Okay, there we go. Yeah. John, we were both Republicans at the same time. Crazy is that.

SPEAKER_06 16:42

No, I thought you, and you beat me to it, LeBron. You were a Republican in college. Oh, yeah. Or was that just you checking the other side? When you joined the young Republicans at UCLA, were you was that just a thought exercise?

SPEAKER_04 16:52

And then you It was a thought exercise that lasted like 25 years.

SPEAKER_06 16:56

Okay. All right. Yeah. All right. So yeah, you beat me to it. And I think, Antonio, you have always pretty much been democratic.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Yes? Yes, I've always been for the people.

SPEAKER_06 17:07

I think I've I never understood.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Uh no, I'm for white people too. I I think that I have never actually understood in a real way the difference between socialism and communism. And so I lived a lot of my life up until probably last year. No, it was longer ago than that. But in fear of public proclamations, right? There's there's there's off to cause a kerfuffle, and then there's shit that will get you shot. And so I think that I was always hesitant. It was always safe to be called a Democrat because that was an identifiable since the 60s political party that claimed to be for the people. Got it. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Shout outs to Jesse Jackson, who just passed. Rest in peace. Rest in peace. When he was running for president in 1980 and in 1984, he was running as a Democrat, right? Barack Obama is elected the first black president of the United States in 2008 and 2012 as a Democrat. And so as I go along those, you know, even uh hi, I know Jeffrey Epstein in a real close and personal way, Bill Clinton, when he was running and doing what he was doing in '92 and '96, he was he was running as a Democrat. So it was always very easy for me to politically align with what I saw to be the lesser of two evils, but which had a public face. Um sorry. That was a long-winded way to say. Yeah. Yes. Yes, I am a Democrat.

SPEAKER_06 19:01

And the reason I'm bringing up 2004 and John John Edwards in that run is that my perspective at the time was conservative, Christian. You could even maybe call me a Christian nationalist of the time. I'm not in the way that we would define it now. But as a 33-year-old man at the time, I watched John Edwards, I think it was during the vice presidential debates or the run up to it, where he was talking about there are two Americas. And there's the America of the rich and the America of the poor. And I recall, this could be me looking back incorrectly, I recall him setting it up basically as like there's kind of there's a white America and a non-white America, and he was kind of divided. And I got upset at him, and it it just further cemented my conservative viewpoint, thinking, see, there you go again dividing the country. There you go again, take taking what is supposed to be one and creating division among us. And the reason I'm bringing it up now as it relates to nationalism, that first definition saying aspirations common to the whole of a nation, where in order to truly have nationalism as it's defined, it means the collective aspiration, like we are one and we are attempting to be X, or we think we are Y. And when I was coming from a viewpoint of more seeing us as a Christian nation, seeing us as one, I wanted my politicians to be more about unity and say, we are one. And yet I didn't, at the time, I didn't identify with the idea that no, there are people living an entirely different experience as it relates to how they feel about this nation. And I was I was upset and bothered and even a little puzzled by anyone who didn't feel that sense of patriotism and love and devotion for our country. I've since changed, but it makes me think about this conversation a little bit differently because I evolved from being upset that someone would call out the division, and I think he properly did, because I I feel firmly now that there are more than two Americas, and and we've talked a fair amount about patriotism and symbolism and how folks who don't look like me feel about the elements that people will call America, the symbols and everything else. And so I'm I'm fascinated to hear what you guys have to say about this because I was this question made me ask the question what is black nationalism? What is it? I can't really define that and I don't even know if I have the words for it. I thought Marcus Garvey was like, let's get up, let's get up and out of here.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

That's black nationalism. Heck yo stuff, let's go.

SPEAKER_06 21:30

Then there's the Malcolm X that you called out. That is that and where he said, you know, we we're gonna basically have our own banks and our own power structure, our own, like, you know, let's separate. What how would you all define black nationalism?

SPEAKER_04 21:44

I'm like the historian going first on this one.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Well, I I I so it struck me, right, that in asking the question in grad school is really painful.

SPEAKER_06 21:58

Um Amen. Aren't in these conversations. Antonio is getting another master's degree at the moment. So his academic brain is on fire.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Fire. Literally, the inside of my brain is a light all the time. But um as I'm as I'm studying it, right? Black nationalism is we own the resources in our community. And it it goes back to Ice Cube's um second album, America's Most Wanted. Right, isn't that his second album coming out of the left end of US? Um when he was flirting with the Nation of Islam, he was what I would reasonably call a five percenter, who was somebody who aspired to the political aspirations of the nation but wasn't going to become a Muslim, um, either orthodox or in the way that the Nation of Islam was uh framing it. But black nationalism, as as Malcolm gave voice to it, was simply owning the resources in our community, um putting together structures so that people could live their daily lives. And since white supremacy is the framework and white nationalism is the blueprint or the original algorithm of the United States, black nationalism is something that developed in response to it. And you see that W.E.B. Du Bois, uh William Edward Burkhart Du Bois, uh played and Booker T. Washington in the early 1900s were talking about this. Carter G. Woodson is writing to create uh an idea of black community that isn't um cut off from the root. Uh Tulsa, Oklahoma, where black folk went and said, We're gonna build our own thing, and then white people came and said, nah, fuck that, and burnt the whole shit down and killed it.

SPEAKER_06 23:48

Literally bombed this town. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Right. Um black nationalism has has always been a response, although black people, since they set foot on these shores, have been trying to live their lives independently. Um and so that idea of black nationalism has always been for those of us who would consider ourselves for the people, the idea that black people could just live and not be under threat of violence. And white nationalism has always been based on a threat of violence, uh, is what I came to, right? Even your conversation about um being frustrated or upset or bothered that John Edwards, who was the vice presidential candidate, named the fact that there were disparate experiences of the United States, uh is is emblematic, right? Why is everybody not having my same experience? Why are everything is good for white folks? So what you what y'all complaining about? Right? Um so black that's that's what black nationalism has always been as a concept for me. And yet the nationalism part of it that you brought up and the the Christian nationalism part of it, which I'm sure we'll we'll touch on, um is always interesting because if it's common aspirations for a nation state or common aspirations for a political body or common aspirations for an economy that services a populace, then is there something wrong with white nationalism or is it just violently oppressive because white folk aren't trying to live on their own? That's that yeah that yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

Man, that's in my interpretation, white nationalism is the confluence of of power, resources, and community of white people, excluding everyone else, or pushing everyone else out. In my interpretation, black nationalism is we want to create community amongst ourselves, and we don't white people can stay, everyone can stay. Because it's not about pushing anyone out, it's just bringing us together. Because to me, black nationalism is the Jewish community without the pushback. See, I worked in a Jewish school where it was all Jewish students, and they all lived in the same Jewish community, and they all went through the same thing, and they all had their own stores, bank with each other and best with each other. So that's the exact same thing that the Jewish community is doing. That was what you would call black nationalism. Jews aren't trying to push anybody out, they're not trying to uh cause harm, they're just doing their own thing and they blend in and then they do their own thing. So you'll see Jewish women teach all throughout public schools. There's so many Jewish female teachers, we have to give days off in public school because they were taking days off. So we made Jewish holidays because of so many Jewish teachers. But you won't find no Jewish students in no public school, though. That you will not find. They ain't gonna let you educate their kids, but they will come educate yours. And so that's what I think black nationalism is. It's how can we create our own companies, own our own businesses, control our own destiny without the government and government-sanctioned violence being imposed upon us. No.

SPEAKER_06 27:35

So when you attended LeBron on Saturday night, the black alumni association at UCLA association at UCLA Gala event that we talked about. Right. Honoring Dr. Doby. Yeah, Dr.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

So Winston Doby was uh Vice Chancellor and administrative vice chancellor at uh UCLA when we were all there. Um his daughter Monica.

SPEAKER_06 28:00

We knew Monica, we know Monica, yes. We know Monica.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

Shout out to Monica Dobe.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yes. Shouts out a good one. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:11

She's an AKA, yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Yes, she is. She is, she is an AKA. Um but uh Winston, he he did a lot for students at UCLA, not primarily students of color, not primarily black students, although he was very interested in ensuring that black students were able to matriculate the university, black students were able to access the resources, black students were able to thrive in that environment. Um but his work elevated all, right? A rising tide lifts all boats. And so uh he passed, it's gotta be 15 years ago. Fifteen years ago. Um and the UCLA Black Alumni Association created a scholarship, a legacy scholarship in his name. So this Gala has been uh a fundraiser for that every year for the last 15 years. And LeBron, correct me if I'm wrong, as member of the board for the the chairs for the Gala. Is this really the last one?

SPEAKER_04 29:16

As of right now, I mean, things are just getting so expensive. Um, it's possible we'll have another one, but we're looking at other more creative ways to raise funds. I mean, because it was in response to Proposition 209, which decimated black student enrollment. It's the first time UCLA had less than a hundred students admitted in 2009. And so now we're back up to the largest number of black students in the history of UCLA, and since we've begun the scholarship, we've raised over$10 million in scholarship funds. So Amazing. Wow. Shout out to Winston C.

SPEAKER_06 29:51

When I brought it up, LeBron, in the context of talking about black nationalism, because it seems like that was a bit of a a microcosm of what you're talking about, you know. Yes. Like, and interestingly enough, I was invited by Sidney Jackson, our fraternity brother. So you've got everybody, see it, love. And I was like, hey, I'll I couldn't go because I had plans already. I was like, I I could donate to someone's ticket. And he's like, no, we're good. Like everybody's got their tickets covered. And my point was, and it's it's just like my membership in our fraternity. Like, hey, there's certain spaces that I know that you all would be cool if I was there, but I don't epitomize what that evening is about. You would welcome me there, but I am not a black UCLA alumnus. I this is black UCLA alumni, and it's a in a way, it's kind of a sacred space. But I know that if I showed up, y'all would have been like, yeah, cool, that would have been fine.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

But see, John, to me, here's the misconception about black people. When we celebrate ourselves, everyone's invited. See, that's the difference between whites and blacks. When white people do, they do things exclusively, but we're like, we're celebrating ourselves, and you are welcome to join in it.

SPEAKER_06 31:02

Yeah, but we just don't invite you because we know our gathering's not gonna be as fun. I mean I mean, it's like true that I mean that the white affinity space of post us, uh, you know, we had a little debrief on the.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Oh, we were gonna talk about that. I forgot.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Um but John, that but that that is that is I I have to co-sign with LeBron, right? And so this isn't an affinity space. This was a celebration and a fundraiser. And that is part of the well, this is how I feel about my thing, so I'm gonna put it on you. And I don't know whether or not I just had to read a speech by Frederick Douglass called Composite Nation, which I had never heard of. But me neither. Yo, Frederick Douglass. Man, he he was good with the words, he had the words, he had the words, things to say, yes, he but he was also a patriot. Yes, and I'm even not in the most basic definition of patriot. He was a unit, he was a patriot to the United States, and when he talked about a composite nation, he said that um I'm gonna mess it up, but he basically he made the statement that everybody has prejudices. Like not liking somebody because of X isn't unique to white people, right? Isn't unique to people in the United States, everybody around the world has it, and we can do better. And so his argument for a composite nation, he was arguing for the inclusion of Chinese immigrants uh into the body politic of the United States, and he said, Would I let them come and immigrate? Yes, I would. Would I let them become citizens? Yes, I would. Would I let them vote? Yes, I would, because the United States will be stronger. Yeah, right. To go to back to our James Baldwin that we always quote, I love her so much that I reserve the right to criticize her to make her better. He said, We need to include all groups of men and we need to practice that fundamental ideal that we said that we should have, which is equality.

unknown 33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

And what struck me off, right, is LeBron's statement about that event. You would have been welcomed at that event because you would have been at that event celebrating the legacy of Winston Dovey. You would have been at that event fundraising for black students to attend UCLA, part of that$10 million. You would have been engaged in that event in a celebratory manner. So even if you're not black, you can still celebrate black achievement.

SPEAKER_06 33:44

Yeah. And that is the fundamental difference when you ask the question what's the difference between white nationalism and black nationalism? Is the exclusivity that what the moment you insert the word white into it, it it implies exclusivity because that's our history. And it it leads me to this other question: is it possible to be a white nationalist in any positive kind of way? And if so, what would that even look like?

SPEAKER_04 34:13

That is dope. I love that question. Oh good. If you are a white nationalist who fights against racism, who fights against the Klan, who fights against the Proud Boys, because you are fighting for America and everything that America represents and what's written in the Constitution, then that's my white nationalist right there.

SPEAKER_06 34:37

So it's a matter of redefining what white nationalism means then. So if let's say, in this fictitious scenario we just created, LeBron, that I am now a white nationalist, don't you dare cut that sentence and edit it. That that's all it says. I am now a white nationalist. I'm looking at you, Antonio. You have to Will, be careful, Will. Will don't make that.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Well, this is not that is not the social media. It'll say 99% engagement.

SPEAKER_06 35:04

Yeah, that would be our most popular episode of ever. Uh if I did clip Well, it won't, it won't be no, sir.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

I don't see no racism.

SPEAKER_06 35:14

Still the best of all time.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

But it'll be it'll be right real close.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

In this fictitious scenario in which we create this idea that I am now a positive white nationalist by LeBron's definition. So what am I fighting for that's white? If I'm if I'm saying I'm fighting, I'm fighting against racism, I'm fighting for the empowerment of traditionally and historically underprivileged and underrepresented folks, then how is that even white nationalist by definition? Am I fighting for my whiteness? Am I fighting for, am I saying that I'm going to redefine whiteness as it means all of us? What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Well, personally, I believe it's white to me connotates power. So you're taking your white power to fight against negative white power to make room for everyone. Yeah. So you're not a white nationalist, you're a white that's a nationalist.

SPEAKER_06 36:14

There you go. That's the difference right there. That's the difference. So I am a nationalist who happens to be white. Bam.

SPEAKER_04 36:23

Can I get the t-shirt, please? Antonio, take care of that, please. Because I'll wear that one.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

I wanna, I wanna be, I want to be with you when we go out, the three of us. I'll wear whatever t-shirt you want. And John is wearing a t-shirt that says, I am a nationalist who happens to be white. I just want to see how that is gonna. You can't wear that to Trader Joe's. No, we start with that. You can't wear that to Costco. You can't wear you can wear it to Target.

SPEAKER_06 36:48

Um But this is the pro this is the inherent problem with adding the word white to anything is that first of all, we all agree the whiteness as a construct. It was created to say that we are not black, we're not brown, we are white. So we that that's a fact. So white nationalism by definition and by inference means separatist, racist, bigoted, holding on to the power structure, which is why we trip out when there is a black anything, because we're like, that's a threat to us. Like, wait, what are you all doing over there? We need to send an overseer to see what's happening, which and that's that is my concern when I say I show up to an event that's a black event. I know the effect that can have on some people. Like, oh, what's he doing here? Like, and suddenly now it it creates that element of being watched and and and analyzed and reported on versus no, I'm just here to celebrate. And still, to your point, LeBron, I'm always left feeling celebrated and encouraged and included and all that stuff, like our Postis event, especially the karaoke happy hour afterwards. I mean, yes, it's on at that point.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

But shout out to SoCal Postis, big time great event. You all know what we had a good time and the day drinking and karaoke. We should keep that in every event. That was that was great. That was amazing. And our guests.

SPEAKER_06 38:11

And shout out to Dr.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Rodney Glasgow. Dr.

SPEAKER_06 38:14

Dr. Rodney Glasgow is amazing, simply amazing. So I it seems to me that the the differences between these are very evident, but is it possible to be a positive white nationalist? And it and I it really does make me pause because I find I think a lot of the anger from white people, especially white males in power, is derived from fear of losing their power. And people are more motivated to act when they feel that they're losing something than they are to act when they think they're going to gain something. And so a lot of the anger we find in white folks in America is that fear of losing their power. And yet, when so when you do start getting a little woke and going, oh, wait a second, there are two Americas. There are a bunch of, there's a different experience they have. Sometimes white folks lose the power of the nationalism that they like. That you know, like we I've talked about, like there's still a pride that's inside of us that was ingrained into us of because we've always been in charge. We've had a good run, and we don't like you cutting the cord between us and that good run. Can we still have that and fight for equality and fight against the oppression and fight systemic racism? That's a that's that's a very challenging thing to do and to be, I think.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

So I had to do some homework yesterday.

SPEAKER_06 39:41

For you, for your next graduate degree?

unknown 39:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 39:45

Or for the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

No, for for this was this was schoolwork. Uh I've done some reading and I had to do some writing. And I got to a place where I said the United States has always been at war with itself, and it's been two very distinct groups. Um, I was sort of elevating the conversation that we've had on here a few times. But I said there are the idealists who are the people who believed in the words that the founders wrote, and those are people like Phyllis Wheatley. There are people like Phyllis Felix Holbrook, who in 1773, prior to the revolution, was submitting a petition for on behalf of the many slaves who live in the town of Boston, or the woman named Belinda, who was enslaved and her enslaver was a loyalist in the revolution. And so in 1783, she petitioned and got reparations for her enslavement. Dang. Because, right, see the things that you learn. Um Belinda was her name because Belinda. Um because her uh enslaver who was a loyalist, like fled the country, and she was like, Hey, I want all of his stuff. Give me my money because I was enslaved. And Massachusetts was like, Yes, ma'am. And they did it.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

So you have John Adams laying the law down. I don't know if he's involved at all.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

He wasn't involved at all. You have um, but his name is John, so I I feel that camaraderie.

SPEAKER_06 41:14

I just have an elevated view ever since watching Paul Jamati play him in that miniseries because I think you have an elevated view of Paul Jamati and uh Laura Linney. But Laura Linney's the shit in that thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:25

She Laura Linny could get it. Um Abigail.

SPEAKER_06 41:28

Continued sorry.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

No, point being, right, you have the idealists, you have um those two, you have Phyllis Wheatley, you have Benjamin Banneker, who is stepping up to Thomas Jefferson, who believed in the words that the founders wrote. And then you have the pragmatists on the other side, George Washington, who is leading a revolution for liberty while having an enslaved man by his side by the name of William Lee, who, when he becomes president and he's serving in Philadelphia, is rotating his enslaved people between there and his Mount Vernon in Virginia, right? Because in Philadelphia, which is in Pennsylvania, if you keep an enslaved person because slavery was illegal for more than six months, they are automatically emancipated. So at five and a half months, he was rotating them back to Virginia because that's who he was. The saintly George, the saintly right. And so Ona Judge, who was one of the enslaved people, she was a um, she was uh uh a servant helping Martha Washington, was like, I can count to five and a half, I'm out, and she escaped into the free black community in Philadelphia. Get it on, and then even further away, George Washington until he died, pursued her to re-enslave her.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

Wow, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and then fathered more property upon his enslaved woman, Sally Hemings, because she was the half-sister of his dead wife. Like, you have the idealists versus the pragmatists. Do we believe what they said or do we believe what they did? And what would white nationalism be if the idealists had been stronger? What would we the nation be if the idealists had been the ones who were victorious? But we have pragmatists, right? Because I'm gonna talk about liberty while I enslave you. That's convenient for me.

SPEAKER_06 43:28

Oof. LeBron, our brother brought some receipts. So I'm sitting here watching him listing these names, and he's not just listing them, he's got the context, he's got the story. Bro, I just want to sit at your feet for a minute.

SPEAKER_04 43:44

Man, my next t-shirt is keep Antonio's ass in school.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Oh man, but this nationalism question is real, right? If we talk about citizenship and who's Getting chased down by ICE and whether or not there has ever been any enforcement of immigration from the Canadian border, like all of these things. So, what is white nationalism? And is it different from white supremacy? And I think it can be, but it hasn't been up until this point. It is not now.

SPEAKER_06 44:20

Because that's where my brain goes. The minute you say white nationalist, you might as well say white supremacist. It's just the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 44:27

But the crazy part though, mathematically, if you have a Venn diagram with the white nationalists and it overlaps a black nationalist, to me, the overlap are your Christian nationalists. Say more. So the black folks who aspire to Trump and all these other things and call themselves legitimate Republicans and all this stuff, and are be the first ones to put black people down or to talk about Latinos or immigrants and they're black, are people who claim to be Christians. So the hardcore black Christians align with the hardcore white Christians, and that's where you're gonna get most of your black Republicans.

SPEAKER_06 45:12

But what is their alignment on? I I have two political issues that I find Christians tend to line up with Trumpism, I'll just call it. But what do you think, LeBron? What are they aligned on? Besides faith. Obviously, the faith is kind of starting point, I suppose. Yeah. That's the tricky one.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Patriarchy. Oh no, it's it's not, it's super easy.

SPEAKER_06 45:36

I got two of them. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Patriarchy, uh, the sanctity of life, and I say it in that sarcastic tone because they're sarcastic about it. Um, the role of government, up by your bootstraps. Like there are a number of places. Christian nationalism is a political party, right? It is not about the faith, right? We always have Bible hour with Brother John. The the faith that is espoused by Jesus, who is the Christ, who talks about redemption through actions and all of these things, is not the faith that is practiced by Christian nationalists. Christian nationalists are about the um creating a Christian nation where there is none. They're talking about the role of women in life and the church, where that is defined only by a woman herself. Um and so there are some very core patriarchal, oppressive, male supremacist beliefs that are easy to pick up regardless of your culture, regardless of your nationality. And then you get to espouse. So when you have a man who cheated on every wife he's ever had with the next wife he's gonna get, right, who's cheating on his wife with a hooker and then paying her to not tell her story so he can be elected, so he can be cheating with people that work for him. Right. They aspire to that greatness, Pete Hagseth. Right? So Christian nationalism is a political philosophy dressing in borrowed robes of Christianity.

SPEAKER_06 47:26

We are inching towards the precipice of the conversation about church versus state and the holy war. Look at this. You saw the transition? I saw it coming. Incredible. But the two you yes, you're right, tall, that the two issues that I find in the middle of that Venn diagram, Venn diagram, LeBron, are abortion. Abortion and the border. And this is so family members I've talked to about this, Facebook kerfuffles that I've been involved in, um are usually centered around this. I was having a decent back and forth with someone I knew from my past who's a Christian, I would say probably Christian nationalist type, and we were kind of having pretty respectful dialogue, and then he he tried to drop the bomb. But John, I know you as a reasonable person, as a good man, something something. How could you support a party that wants to murder babies? And I said that line come from. Yeah, and then I said, Yes, I support a woman's right to make choices about her body. The two the narratives are totally different. And that so that that's Christian nationalism is a mythology of the fact that, or the idea that our founding fathers were very principled Christian men, that the Declaration of Independence itself and the Constitution is somehow guided by the hand of God and holy and all these different things. And then if you if you draw a line all the way to Donald Aloysius Trump, as John Stewart calls him, Aloysius Trump, that Trump is just one of in that line of men being used by God to make sure babies don't get murdered and terrorists don't come through our southern border, and criminals don't come through our southern border, and Chinese agents delivering fentanyl don't come through our southern border. That's the narrative. And so they will they'll hold their nose sort of in secret, like I don't really like Donald Trump. I find him a little whatever, but he's doing the Lord's work, he's saving the babies, and he's keeping the bad people out. Go, God, go, USA, pass me a hospital.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

So as our as our fighter pilots with their crosses on, drop those bombs in the name of Jesus.

SPEAKER_06 49:50

My God. And listen, today I never thought I would say this out loud. I agreed with Tucker Carlson today.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Dude, Tucker! Did you see that? Tucker has turned around, man. In my household, we're like, Tucker, you mother Tucker. I can roll with you. I can roll with you. My headphones are broken. Hold on, Antonio. You better catch up audio.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

We're having an audio problem. You better catch up. Tucker is catch up. Am I still I must be asleep. I must be asleep.

SPEAKER_06 50:20

Antonio, maybe he's just ahead of the pimple and his smart people are like look, if you want to make a run for the presidency, you're gonna have to change your tone and you're gonna have to separate yourself from Trump. So maybe that's what's happening. But I'll tell you what he what I witnessed, and it was just today, LeBron, you probably saw is a clip of him talking to I think the Heritage Foundation or whatever the Charlie Kirk Foundation.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

So he's really separated himself. Turning points USA. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_06 50:43

There you go. And he's he like very, very powerfully condemned the murder of innocent civilians for any reason at all. And he just was like, you call yourself a Christian while you bomb these these innocent people, that is always wrong. I don't care about your party affiliation, I don't care about your religious affiliation, it is wrong, period. I was like, why are you saying that? I want someone else to say that.

SPEAKER_03 51:10

Was he talking about Alex Predi and no? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 51:17

Nice pull. But I'm just checking. My boy, and I will call him my boy James Tallerico. He's the one talking about you're gonna you're gonna call yourself a Christian and do and you're your two biggest issues, abortion and homosexual rights, which is what he talks about. He's like two issues that Jesus never talked about, two issues that are never brought up in the Bible. That's what you're gonna stand on. The only issues you should be standing on if you call yourself a Christian are love God and love people, regardless of their religious affiliation. So that means we welcome our neighbor, we feed the hungry, we try to heal the sick. If you're gonna call yourself a Christian, that should be your platform. This Christian nationalism thing, he's taking it head on. I just never thought. Yeah, in Texas, no more.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

Yeah. Now, Tucker Carlson, I would say, is a nationalist who is white. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

Wait, say it again, LeBron. Tucker Carlson. He's my definition of a nationalist who is white. No, that's what we talk about. He's a white. You gotta listen. You gotta listen.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

I listen, I listen to Tucker. You're gonna tell me to listen to Fear Factor Boy next. Oh, no, no, no. So not Joe Roman. But here's the uh there's a t-shirt that will make its way onto the podcast, but it's Leviticus 19, verses 33 and 34.

SPEAKER_06 52:44

Give it to me.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

What if when a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. They must be treated as you're native-born.

SPEAKER_06 52:52

Preach, brother.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Right now, Christian nationalists, there's your t-shirt. So, people who actually read the Bible. See, this is where Catholicism and Protestantism differ. And I I have to go with the Protestants on this one. Because part of the reason they protest, you know where I'm going? They read the Bible. Catholics don't read the Bible. They like Catholics don't know what the Bible says. They asked exactly.

SPEAKER_06 53:17

He's gonna tell me what's what's what further. A lot of intercessories in between God and you, a lot of saints and people, yeah. Oh my goodness. That's how it started. Martin Luther, baby.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

Witburg, Germany, baby. 95 nailed to the door.

unknown 53:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

LeBron's like, what are you people talking about?

SPEAKER_04 53:34

Y'all lost me on that one, but I'm rolling with it.

SPEAKER_06 53:37

Lutherans. You've heard of the Lutherans, right? Oh, I've heard of the Lutherans, yeah. You've heard Martin Luther King Jr. You heard of that guy? Yes. Named after Martin Luther. Oh, who was Luther Van Roger? Interesting historical fact. What's that?

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Interesting historical fact. Martin Luther King Jr. and Martin Luther King Sr. were actually Michael King and Michael King Jr. until Martin Luther King Jr. was four years old. At which point his father, who was a preacher, made a pilgrimage, I will say, came back and changed his name to Martin Luther King. No. And changed his son's name to Martin Luther King Jr.

SPEAKER_06 54:19

Dude, that would be like Ron James changing his name to Karim Abdul Jabbar, bro.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

I mean, would you be mad? Nope. I sure wouldn't. Where would you go? For sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Probably to Wittenberg.

SPEAKER_06 54:34

Probably to the church where he nailed the thesis on the door.

SPEAKER_03 54:38

Might have been. Yeah. Might have been. But uh it's just an interesting thing, it's one of those things where you're like, oh, if you so Martin, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., graduate of Morehouse at 16. No, started Morehouse at 16? I think started. One of those two.

unknown 54:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:55

Either way, it's impressive as hell. Either way, either way. Either way. Speaking of Christian nationalism, white nationalism. Do y'all remember me talking about singing America the Beautiful at church? Yes, I remember that. Yeah. This is many years ago. Um involved in the music at a pretty large church in a small town. Very, very, very, very Caucasian. Very, very, you know, probably a lot of nationalists of a certain two highway exits away from Confederate flags proudly waving off of trucks. Just let's put it that way. All right.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

So in California? Say it ain't so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:34

And uh it's either Memorial Day, Sunday, or Veterans Day. So we we made a very deliberate effort on those days properly to honor the sacrifice of our military veterans or those who had served, and I was proud to be a part of it. As such, I was asked to do a special song at the piano, and my dad had arranged basically the Ray Charles version of America the Beautiful. It's like real slow. Ooh, beautiful. I mean, it's like the lyrics of the second verse that we never hear are so good, man. And so I'm just I'm playing, I'm thinking about my dad. I'm like, oh, this is so good. It feels good. And when I'm ending the song, they have a video montage playing, and it's like in my the end of the song kind of went transitioned right into the video montage with this like swelling strings. Like it's a very emotional moment. And then these big images, huge church, big like LED screen, and a very deep LeBron type voice. We thank our God on this day, and it's like you know, American flag for our for his provision over our centuries of history. Eagle flies by, and it's like, and we thank him for our whatever, for our declaration and for our history. Another eagle. We thank him for our strength, fighter jet. And I was like, does anyone have a problem? Like, wait, did we just show a murder machine on a screen at church? In the name of the church. In the context of the role. And I was just like, uh, afterwards, I was talking to the guys like, did anyone, did you see, like, yeah, you know, I thought it was really good. It was moving. I'm like, well, hold on, hold on. We we're I thought it was really good.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

It was really moving.

SPEAKER_06 57:15

We're celebrating. And I'm saying that's how you that's how pervasive it is and evasive it is. It's like it's so intrant, it's so woven into our mythology that we can have the words God and provision and divine and murder and eagles. Like it, like we don't even and again, the context was we celebrate our strength. I'm like, wait, hold on, let's unpack this. What do you mean by our strength? Well, here look at this jet. Wait, what does that jet do? It does circles and little loopy loops. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

The bomb on me. It murders people.

SPEAKER_06 57:52

So we are in church celebrating our strength by which we murder people. Okay, just want to just want to clarify.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

It's you ain't killing, you ain't Christian. Come on, man.

SPEAKER_06 58:07

Oh my God. And I I've never been able to shake it.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

He ain't Christian. He's like a couple times. That's why he ain't killing.

SPEAKER_06 58:14

But I've never been able to shake that. And I I found myself even in the moment feeling like, all right, maybe I'm just a little too sensitive to this. You know, just take it as a grain of salt, it's just imagery. But I'm like, no, man, that is our symbols, LeBron. Have their decisions we make about what do we stand for. And someone made a decision. That was not a video we produced, that was a video that is a church, you like by the rights to show it. So I guarantee you, thousands of churches showed that video that day. And Christians celebrate it, going, Yeah, man, God is awesome. America's strong. We celebrate our strength. It's like, dude, take a breath. Should we really be celebrating military might in the middle of Christianity? I would say no.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

I thought I thought your tech guys put that together. That was a produced video. It's a produced video. Yeah. Wow. So I'm serious. I guarantee you I do not know about.

SPEAKER_06 59:17

Yeah. It's a whole industry. There's an industry of like you go on a site and go like and you can choose. Here's dozens and dozens of videos you can show on Memorial Day. Here's dozens and dozens, Mother's Day. Here's a and again, the fact that it didn't bother people is bothersome.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

It just shows. Not that it didn't bother people, it's that they bought it to celebrate it.

SPEAKER_06 59:39

Yeah. Yeah, either didn't notice it or yeah, no, you're right. Celebrated it. That that that jet was a symbol to the depth of a Christian nationalist soul of God blessing our nation with strength. All that means is we are better at murdering people than anyone else. That's what that means. I'm not about to celebrate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

You think it was an accident that the first bombs that the United States dropped in Iran were on a school?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:14

I don't think it was an accident. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

Of course it's not an accident.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:17

It was a precision bomb.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:19

Precision bomb.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:20

That was not when I I've watched footage on it, they're like, the analysts are like, no, that's not like ancillary damage. That was targeted. Now it was next to a mil a historically military operation next to it. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

It was military adjacent. It was military adjacent.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

But it was precisely.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:40

But what do we gain from that? Even publicly, I mean, we're just hurting our image. We're just galvanizing the well, it comes back to the fact that, oh God, we're here now. I'm sorry. If these guys, Pete Hagseth included, are giving orders or at least insinuating that this is a holy war, then that mentality accepts the idea that there is an ultimate war on the horizon that's called Armageddon, where all these faiths are going to fight one another. And the true faith, the one that God is with, Christianity and the Christian nationalist mind mindset and view uh world view, that we are going to we're going to accelerate that. We're going to bring on Armageddon so that we can get to whatever is on the other side. And in this belief system, on the other side of that is the second coming of a messiah, a new world order. So it is twisted as yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

The only thing I would say is it doesn't accept it embraces.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:45

Yeah, embraces.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

It embraces.

unknown 1:01:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

I have a left turn, but give it to us.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:53

We could use a left turn. We've been going to No, we talked about, or maybe we didn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

What's my favorite word, bitch?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

Um person. No. Um, so uh Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump and Marco Rubio were speaking at the conference where Christy Noam, after she got fired, uh because she's the woman in charge, whatever, she's the woman in charge, and she was getting more popular, more name recognition than Trump. And so he was like, I got to get this out my way. So he fired her, but when he did, he quote, reassigned her to coordinating the Shield of the Americas, which is just another, I'm Donald Trump and I'm gonna create this thing. So after I'm not a president anymore, I'm beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:49

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

Right. Um, and so uh they were speaking at to to journalists, right? Shield of the Americas. So there were many Latin American uh dignitaries there, and there were Latin American press there. And you know, they speak Spanish in most of Latin America, some places they speak Portuguese, but whatever. And Marco Rubio, because you know, he's so pretty. And he asked permission from daddy first. He said, Looked over if I talk without the yes, he did. He looked straight at Donald Trump. He said, Is it okay if I um speak to them in Spanish without the interpreter? Because I'm the best interpreter you got. And Donald Daddy was like, Yeah, go ahead, baby. Go ahead. That's okay. And so, and so Marco Rubio proceeded to have a whole conversation with the journalists and answering questions, and he said a bunch of stuff in Spanish, and then he left. He he finished and he walked away from the podium. And Pete Hex, that's what came up, and he said, Yeah, I just speak American. And Marco Rubio just stood there, like, I said, so that's what happens when you try to be white adjacent. What he just said to everybody was, you are not American. You are not American when you were speaking some foreign language. I was like, Oh, you gave that speech and you gave it in English, you gave it in daddy's tongue, and now you find it out that daddy don't care about you.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:27

But Antonio, Pete was just being funny. It was self-deprecating. He was basically saying and signaling, I'm dumb, I only speak one language, language, and that's American. Everybody knows Americans only speak one language, which is English. That's all he's doing. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:40

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Refute me, bro.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

He he he said the loudness. He didn't say I only speak one language. He said I only speak American.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

Yep. He didn't say anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

This is a whole different thing, it is a whole different thing. This is Nazi poster boy guy, right? He's straight from central casting.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:02

Yep. Yeah.

unknown 1:05:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Yep. I'm sorry, broke. That just popped into my head when you were talking about Christian nationalism, and I was like Pete Hagseth and having prayer service, Christian prayer services at the Department of Defense.

unknown 1:05:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Broke.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:19

Even if it was just his attempt at humor, it betrays where his brain is. That American is English, American is white, and what little Marco did, oh, that was cute. That was cute little Spanish thing. Now here's the real shit right here. Me. And that's you know what I find disturbing besides the blatant racism. Besides that, is what lies beneath, which is an incredible lack of depth intellectually, emotionally. Now, look at their leader. We know this, we've called him the head of the pimple, yes, but to be surrounded. By Christy Gnome and Pete Hegzeth and the others, Stephen Miller, who seem incapable of complex thought. They seem incapable of balancing more than one idea at a time. And here's Marco Rubio, who, by definition, is a great American success story with his Cuban heritage and becoming the powerful person that he is who speaks another language fluently, which is impressive intellectually speaking, who should be celebrated in a moment like that. Anyone with a better mind than a Pete Heggseth would could approach the microphone out afterwards and go, wasn't that amazing? Can you believe? Like, isn't it great that we have someone like him at the helm who could speak Spanish so fluently? Who could, but no. What is that? Knucklehead, mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, two cells in his brain rubbing together, thinking about who knows what. What does he come up with? I only speak American. What a dumb, just lackluster brain, low IQ, monotheistic looking piece of shit that guy is.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:07

You gotta understand. He's like, I don't care how smart he is, how many languages he speaks, I'm a white man and I have power. Yes. And so I'm gonna put you in your place. He's like, look how dumb I can be and still run the country because I'm white. Look at how incompetent the gnome lady is. Look at her replacement. He doesn't even have a bachelor's degree. Bro.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

And he got elected senator. Thank you. He got elected senator.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:36

Okay.

unknown 1:07:36

Oh God.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:38

Which is why white nationalism shouldn't exist. Because whatever the opposite of black excellence is, that's what we're seeing right now. Because, like when you when you think of going back to Malcolm X and Black Excellence, we're gonna have our own banks, our own resources. Like, think about what it took in Tulsa to make that happen. When's the last time you went to the DMV, you all? Wow. How bad was that? Okay, think of think of that times 2,000 for every move they made. A black person trying to get a loan, a black person trying to say, hey, we need a permit to build a building, a shack, a black person trying to be like, hey, uh, we need to get air conditioning in our in our like, I mean, every step that was taken was easily 200 times harder than it would have been for a white person. And yet they still did it. Did it that is not just black excellence, that is human resilience. That is the like the deepest, deepest should be celebrated stick to itiveness that you've ever seen. Now flip that on its head, and you have Pete Heggs. A little tiny attempt at being funny, or a little like that, and they're just because they were in the right circle and they fit the cast of you know, of the fit the role that they were casting for, it it drives me crazy, which is why when we go back to white nationalism, is like, what are you what are you proud of exactly? Like what what do you stand on that is great? What what resilience have you had to show culturally speaking? So I mean, like, tell fill that blank in for me and tell me exactly. And I'm like, you're you're not you're not gonna have a lot of answers. But you go to black nationalism because what are you proud of? Oh, sit down for a minute. How much time you got? Let's talk about Antonio's grandmother, who's about to be 103? Let's talk about that. She's about to be 104. She's now 100. Let's talk about her. That's a novel of resilience and excellence and perseverance. I mean, it's it's so I'm saying, I don't know, man. I think maybe black nationalism should be the new white nationalism.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

You got my vote. I'll take it.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:51

That's my t-shirt. That's my t-shirt. Black nationalism is the new white nationalism.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:56

Just make sure you wear that uh Easter Crenshaw. That's all you gotta do. You'll be fine. No, bro.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:00

I'm gonna wear it in Santa Monica, my hometown, north of Montana.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

Hey, have you all seen, did you all watch Scandal when it was on?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:08

No. Yes, I did. I need to.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

Uh, what is name that plays Papa Pope?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:15

Oh, he's got the best speecher in the history of you know exactly what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

Man, you guys gotta send me a link.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:22

Send me a link tonight. John, it is the greatest monologue ever written in history.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:29

You have to be what? Twice as twice as what? Twice as good to get half as much. That's right. Okay. Hold on. Listen. I mean, you're gonna make me YouTube it right now. Anyway, my point and bring that. Yeah, I'm saying it to you, but my point in bringing that up was you were talking about Pete Heggseth and and white mediocrity and Christy Noam and Stephen Miller and whatnot. And his speech right there, when you talk about black excellence or black resilience, was a master class. It's four minutes. Shonda Rhymes. I don't know if you wrote this uh speech or if it was one of the writers on it, but it is absolutely phenomenal. I cannot wait. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:17

Um I can't believe they let that air on national television, John. I don't know how they got the clearance.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:22

Seriously? Is that good?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:23

Yeah. I can't wait. And the other one, oh, I wish I could remember. It was the white dude, I forget what show, and he was like on a panel and he talked about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:32

Bro, it's the newsroom. The newsroom.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:34

That was gonna bring that up.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

The opening, that's the and that's the opening, that's Aaron Sorgan. That's the opening. Three minutes of the newsroom as a series.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:47

Will McAvoy played by Jeff Daniels, blowing people's minds about how America is not the first. As a matter of fact, we're 32nd in this. We're number the only thing we're number one in is like infant mortality rates, illiteracy, and the number of people who believe in. Yeah, yeah, number settings, and number of people who believe in. We believe in angels.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:07

So when you ask me what makes America the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:13

Yosemite? That was his mic draw.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:17

Now, if we juxtapose those two monologues together, that's what three for the foundation.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:24

I just sent you, I just sent you uh what is his name? He is an amazing actor. Morton. Something Morton. Uh yeah, yeah, Joe Morton. Joe Morton. Yes. Joe Morton.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:35

I can't wait to see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

I can't wait to see. Oh my God. Joe Morton playing Eli Pope. It was cold-blooded. Whoever wrote his lines.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

Who wrote his speech?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:45

And he's got a couple of them in there, but that one is just like gentle parenting, John.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:51

Gentle parenting.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:54

Lynn Manuel Miranda in congratulating the poet laureate at Joe Biden's inauguration. Amanda Gorman? Amanda Gorman. Amanda Gorman. I think he tweeted at her, and I he was quoting someone else, I believe, but I've attributed to Lynn Manuel because why not? Yep. And he said, You you proved the the age-old adage that the right words in the right order can change the world. Wow. When we talk about these speeches, you're talking about your guy for scandal. I'm talking about my guy Sorkin. Yes. A famous speech is when President Bartlett and the West Wing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:29

Oh, when he drops it on the radio host?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:32

No. Yes. Yes. And he quote starts quoting scripture and he's like, tell me, my brother, he chooses to you, he he wears a coat that has, you know, mixed mixed cloth or whatever. According to Leviticus 6, 7, 16, 17, I can stone him to death. Do I do that inside the city walls or outside the city walls? Oh, my daughter. He's just laying it down.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:49

And then do the mic drop and he's like, Thou should not touch the thou should not touch the flesh of a dead pig. Tell me if the Redskins wear gloves, we'll put aside because he was naming the team as it was. If the Redskins wear gloves, can they still play on Sundays?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:03

It's so good, bro. I have a daughter who you know refuses to something something. He's like, should I should I do I kill her myself or do I have someone else to kill? And then, dude, and then because he's sork and he takes it one step further at the end, and he's like, and because she's sitting and everyone else stands, and he's like, You and he says, You might mistake this for the monthly meeting of the tight ass society, such and such. But when the president walks in the room, no one sits. And he stares her down.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:31

I just watched that episode. I just watched that episode. It's so good.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:36

Oh man. The right words, in the right order, in the right order. Can change the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:43

Thank you for joining us for three for the founders. Where we took on nationalism, black, white, Christian, and other. And other. Where we had a little bit of a conversation about religious warfare. Church and state. And it's creeping in our government. Whether or not people are precise or just stupid. But we appreciate you. We appreciate your time. As always, left on founders.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

Left on founders. We out. We out. We're out. We out.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:18

Still. I can't do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:19

Thank you for joining us. Still got questions? Other things you want to say? Well, hit us up at threeforthefounders.com on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or TikTok. Or send us a text through Buzz Sprout. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share the pod with someone you think can benefit from it or add to the conversation. Till the next time, Left on Founders. We out.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:48

Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. Dude, I was with my son and a friend from high school surfing. So my oldest son, Jake. And some something about someone said the word trigger. And I said, my trigger. And they're both like, oh, you can't dead. And then I started to explain, and Jake, my son goes, Oh, this is the part where he talks about he has black friends who said it was okay.

unknown 1:16:34

Like, no.