Ep. 42 - Holidays, Race, and the Myth of Shared Memory

Commemoration is never just ceremony. Every holiday, every monument, every flag is a choice about whose story gets to be the nation's story. When that choice has consistently excluded the enslaved, the colonized, and the dishonored veteran, the radical act is not destruction — it is insistence. Insisting that the full truth be told. Insisting that the buried be named. Insisting, as these hosts do week after week, that acknowledgement is not the enemy of healing. It is the only path toward it.

Before this Memorial Day passes, find one history that your education left out — Decoration Day's Black origins, the Equal Justice Initiative's Legacy Museum, the story of a veteran like Papa James — and share it with one person who doesn't know it yet. Not to argue. Not to shame. Just to say: this happened, and it matters, and now you know. That is how the fire gets passed.

Welcome to Episode 42 of Three for the Founders. One year in. Still awake. Still building.

Thanks for joining us. Still got questions? Other things to say? Hit us up at Three for the Founders on Instagram, Facebook, or  YouTube and let us know. Til the next time...left on Founders...we out! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

A year ago, John LeBron and I started recording our conversations about race, politics, history, and people to share with whoever wanted to join in. We called ourselves Three for the Fenders. And those early discussions were a little bit loose as we discovered our voices, uncovered our blind spots, and asked out loud what was important to each of us in this imagined community we call the United States of America. On this anniversary, here is our conversation from Memorial Day 2025 for your listening pleasure. And we'll be back with some new thoughts and some fresh words next week. Until then, happy decoration day. Enjoy this bonus re-release episode. And as we always do, left on founders. Right, that's where we're gonna start. Why were you late? Because that mushroom coffee hit.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

We're brothers, we're happy and we're singing and we're colored.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Give me a high five! Alright, cut and print. Beautiful guys. Dynomite. Welcome to Three for the Founders, where brotherhood meets breakdown. We've been having these conversations for years, and now you are invited to join us. We'll say the things you are afraid to say and ask the questions you want to ask. Three brothers, all truth, no filters. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Right around the corner is a former lynching site that they actually made into a memorial kind of place.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Really? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

I love how they were memorialized murder. Tell me, tell us more about that, John. Well, I wish I could tell you more about it, but what I could do is ask my Google machine and just look it up based on where I where I am. And because it's uh it was an infamous spot that was known as a lynching place. It's now called Pegasus Plaza. Wow. And you're in Texas.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Dallas, Dallas, Dallas, Texas. Yes. And while you're looking that up, man, it's funny you say that. So when I was when I do my training about the possibilities of the future, I show a slide of a lynching, and then I show a picture of Obama surrounded by white people. So first there's a black man in a tree surrounded by celebrating white people. Then I fast forward to Obama as president surrounded by white people to show the possibilities. So that slide goes over really well, except when I did it in Marion, Indiana a couple years ago. And then the room went dead silent. And I was like, I never had this reaction. Then they pulled my coat. Uh LeBron, uh, that lynching happened down the street here in Marion. I was like, oh my groceries.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Oh my groceries.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

And they knew it. They saw it. Yes. In fact, someone said, LeBron, I'm gonna give you the direction, you can go see the tree because they like memorialized the tree where they hung them from. Like in the middle of the city. I'm like, boy, y'all be memorializing this murderer, boy.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

So here's I I again, not the conversation that we're going to have, but the conversation that we're having. Yes. Because I'm about to leave on the trip. I'm about to take the kids. We go to Montgomery, Alabama. The Equal Justice Initiative has created LeBron. I'll be okay. I'll be okay. I'm bored. All right. LeBron's eyes just got big eyed. Uh, I'll be okay. But the Equal Justice Initiative, Brian Stevenson's group, and if you haven't read or seen Just Mercy, uh, Brian Stevenson is doing some amazing work and his organization. But they have what's called the Legacy Museum, which is literally uh history of black folk from before until now. And when I say before, I'm being before 1619. Um, but part of what they've done is they've gone out to every lynching site that they can find, and they have dug up earth from underneath the tree, from outside of the space, and put it in a jar and put that person's name, put the person who was lynched, put their name on the jar, and then one wall of the legacy museum is all jars of people who've been lynched in the United States. And so it's very powerful, and and they tell a lot of stories. One woman, the older black woman, she went out and she was uh at this lynching site, and some guy in a Ford F-150 pulled up, white guy, and he's like, What are you doing? She said, I had to call on the spirit, and then I said, I am digging up some dirt. Why are you doing that? Because somebody was lynched here. And she told him the story of the person who was lynched. He said, Can I help you? Wow. Powerful. And he came down and he he so they're both putting earth into this jar, right? And earth that you know has been soaked with blood and and celebrated, as you said, with by by folks around. And um at the end of it, he said, you know, she said, Would you take a picture of me with this jar? And he said, Yes, would you take a picture of me with this jar? And he said, I can't guarantee you that my grandparents weren't here or my grandfather wasn't a part of this. And so there was a power in that memory and the power in that memorialization, a power in that acknowledgement to your point, John, truth and reconciliation. Um, there was a power in that acknowledgement, right? And so when you said that there was right outside your hotel or down the block from your hotel at LeBron, when you said right down the block from where you were presenting to a group of teachers, um, that there is a site that's memorialized. We've talked about symbols a lot, and and I always come back to the questions like, what is you memorializing? What is the symbol, right? Because we're pulling down statues of Confederate generals, we're pulling down statues of people who fought in order to hold on, to enslave, to be white supremacists, like literally out of their mouths, in order to create the white man's country, as the president is trying to do. And yet there is also power in memorializing to your words, LeBron, that murder. And so, what is it that we are acknowledging? What is it that we are healing? What is it that we are doing when we have a memorial at a lynching site, a memorial of a lynching, a memorial of someone whose life was taken just because they were black and educated, just because they were black and vocal, just because they were black. Um yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah, I mean, so I love how we're tying this in because these memorials around lynching and murder and terrorism, but how that lady was able to dig it up and then the gentleman came, recognize it, and then participated, and how there was healing for both. To me, that's part of what we're trying to do here. Is if you take Memorial Day and you take Juneteenth and we put them together and have everybody, black, white, and others, acknowledge what happened, take some type of responsibility or accountability or acknowledgement of it. To me, that's where the healing begins. One, if white people are brave enough to acknowledge, yes, this is what my ancestors did and it was wrong. I personally didn't do it, but my ancestors did. Now I want to participate in the reconciliation. That is very much healing for black people. Just to be to acknowledge that. Now we can then move forward and have those conversations to me through those types of symbolic ceremonial events. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I mean, that's it is powerful. And when I'm thinking about that story, it's like the what the woman did was uh to me, it's like part and parcel of the black experience in America. It's this constant uh reminder everywhere you go of the past and this constant demand for bravery. Like it was brave of her to step out and start digging. It was brave of her to continue to do it when this gentleman who is very menacing shows up in a Ford F-150 and clearly is operating in a way that would be scary for anybody in that situation. And yet she responds by just telling him the truth. It probably took a lot of courage and bravery for her just to say what was going on. And then it took the white dude like just um like a minuscule amount of thoughtfulness to do the right thing. You know what I mean? Like it just took him to think, oh, can I do this with you? Like, and I and I I I call that extra credit. Like white people get way too much credit for doing just like a good citizen kind of thing. Right, regular humane type stuff, right? But here we are telling the story because quite honestly, that's a very uncommon thing that just happened. Um LeBron, you and I are listening to the story going, oh, I see where this is going, man.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Sinners part two, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

But instead can I come in? You gotta invite him.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

That just wouldn't be polite. Look, here's the but here's the the thing that that struck me out of this, and like he he's earned his yellow belt. Right?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, he titled stepped into this conversation that we've been having about how do you step outside of yourself to be a participant in a conversation that doesn't lead with you're supposed to make me comfortable. Yeah right? He wasn't detached and and he he did pull up in the truck. And and there's a there's a menace to the story because we're all familiar with history, but I also like to think about he's being judged on the way he looks. He's being judged on the way he showed up before he opened his mouth, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:40

He's running the symbol of whiteness, dude, as we talked about. I'm rolling up in a Ford F-150. I am a symbol of history and oppression and violence and danger. And yes, don't mean to interrupt you, but yes, as you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Yeah, no, he's writing in an old school Tesla.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Um sorry, did I sorry he's kind of bumper sticking now that says, I bought this before three for the pounders podcast game.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Oh my man, I know this is this is B-roll, but I'm telling you, watch, watch what happens here. I don't know that it's B-roll, bro. I know we're gonna end up doing seminars around the country, and we're gonna create a course for white people to earn their martial arts of accountability, racial reconciliation. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

This is my trademark. This is my trademark. Yep, so that you can stay on target. LeBron, stay on target. First, we're like, let's do a podcast. He's like, hey, we could do an app. Then we're like, no, we're doing the podcast. Then he's like, hey, we could do a martial arts course for white folk. Stay on target. We're doing a podcast. Okay one step at a time, my brother.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

There you go. White people, you get your anti-black black belt later. So we're gonna get back to the podcast right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Is it an anti-black belt? What is we gonna call it, man?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

So if you get the anti-black black belt, then you're pro-black.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

No, you get your yellow belt, your yellow your yellow belt and racial certification.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

There you go. Diversity understanding. I mean, it's oh well, there's a lot of different places we could go. Yeah. Hey, there's a reason the brother went to Harvard, man. He's he's a big, big thinker.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

He went to Harvard.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Somebody said, Oh, LeBron, you went to Hartford? I'm like, no. Connecticut?

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Connecticut?

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Not quite.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

No.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

All right. Woo!

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Bring it. All right. But we were like that story just came your your reaction to right, the fact that there is a site of lynching, and and I had to stop myself for a minute because most of the time we're all in California. Um, and so I was like, ooh, a lynching site in California? I mean, don't get me wrong, San Francisco is in and of itself a lynching site, but that's not black folk, that's for Chinese and anti-Asian you know, sentiment in the 1800s, because read my title. Yes. But I was I was surprised, and then I was like, oh no, no, you're in Texas. Yeah. That's perfect, of course.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

But why do we have memorials? Why do we have holidays? Is to engender these kind of conversations and thoughts, correct?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

This the conversation began with us talking about uh literally a memorial, right? And what is it a memorial to? Our conversation today was supposed to be about holy days. I'm sorry, holidays, right? Which are religious in origin, where people come together to share a common purpose, and yet Memorial Day is called Decoration Day. The Fourth of July is called Independence Day, Juneteenth. You know, I always have that piece in my head. What the fuck is Juneteenth? Thank you. But right, all of these holidays that are holy days, that are a conversation that we've had. Like, what is Memorial Day for? Why did it begin? Why is it celebrated now? I mean, we can go as far as you want with, we can go to Thanksgiving, which is never celebrated at my house, but we do celebrate Family Day because the purpose of it for us is to get together. We're not giving thanks for massacres, indigenous people being herded and railroaded and measled and genocided. Right. Right? And so, what is the original purpose, and then how do we celebrate those things today? So as we find ourselves here a few days after Memorial Day and a few days before the 4th of July and a few days before Juneteenth, talking about what those holy days mean to the three of us, um, I think falls right in line with why do we celebrate, and I'm using we because I'm roping you into my my pathos, but why do we celebrate the tearing down of Confederate statues and yet venerate the memorials for murder, as LeBron so aptly coined them? Why do why am I going to a museum that has a whole wall dedicated to lynchings?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I remember when my son, my oldest son, we lived in Sacramento. Jake was maybe 12, and right near the Capitol building, there's a very large, not compared to DC large, but a large Vietnam memorial wall. And I remember just saying, I believe it was on Memorial Day. I'm gonna take my kid over there. I don't know what's gonna happen. And we just went, and there was one gentleman walking around, it was early in the morning, which is hard for a 12-year-old anyway, just getting him up. He was not in the mood for it. And it I just we just walked around. I tried not to make it too big of a deal, but at the time he was my oldest, and you know, was being very deliberate as a dad. I'm gonna teach you some lessons and you know. But I remember leaving an impression on him because there was the gentleman who was walking around and he had some army gear on, and he was clearly memorializing probably some comrades of his. And I had an awkward exchange between him because he clearly didn't want to be spoken to necessarily. But I said, I just really want to thank you and appreciate whatever you've been through. And he's like, Oh, okay. And it embarrassed Jake a little bit, but it it was a touch point that made a memory in him that would not have otherwise happened. And I know that even when we're awkward or don't even know what we're trying to do, when we're a little bit thoughtful about some of this stuff, it can make a difference with of how we interpret our history, which helps us interpret how we move forward. That was one of the first thoughts that came to me when you were talking.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

And and let me ask you this question because uh firstborns, and they will all agree I'm firstborn, right? Um, is when parents care the most and know the least. I just want to acknowledge that. And so uh we do things uh on purpose, and and it doesn't mean that we know what the impact is gonna be. Um we assume and we we memorialize. But I heard you say in that story that it felt like the gentleman didn't want to really interact. What was it in you? What were you feeling about Memorial Day or parenting or being in that space that that made you uh I'm gonna say violate his his sort of personal remembrance and think that you that it that that was okay, like it was worth doing that.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

It's difficult to remember exactly. Thinking about it now, I'm guessing having my son witness this elevated the intensity of the situation. I thought I'm not gonna let a little awkwardness stop me from saying a thank you. And I think I'd been around enough veterans to know that it's just like anybody who's really seen some shit, they don't really talk about it a lot. And so the the sense that I was getting from this gentleman was like, you know, I could I could be left alone and be quite all right. And so I think I that felt familiar to me. Like I'll just push through that little bit of awkwardness and and I want him to know, I guess, and now that I'm thinking about it, I want him to know that he's appreciated, that he's seen, even if it's an awkward social interaction between us. The little pain of the social interaction is l less important than him knowing, I see you, I appreciate you, even if it's in this tiny, tiny little gesture. And in a way, that's what you know when anyone's gone through anything that's real, when they are when they feel like other people see it, and even if they don't fully understand it or grasp it, th that there's really something to that, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Definitely. And I mean you can talk about my grandparents on either side, right? My my Mexican-American grandparents who crossed the Rio Grande and did their thing and got here and had children, or you know, my my black grandparents who grew up in Monroe, Louisiana. Um because there's a lot that they don't talk about either. Right? As we've we've sort of focused on the the racial experiences of of people in the United States. Um there's a lot that they've been through that they don't talk about, that they don't want to talk about, that that it's harder to push through that awkwardness, right? Veterans from Vietnam, regardless of race, came home to acrimony, came home to hatred, came home to people protesting the government's decision to send them and what they were forced to do by circumstance or by orders to participate in. Um, but I think it's it uh I was asking that because part of our conversation about symbols and how we feel about the country or how we feel about our privileges or how we feel about what people um do and say right is important if that emotion is the driving is the driving force. Yep. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

With these holidays, especially like Memorial Day and Fourth of July, I think there's it's layered. So general American response is the joy, the celebration, but that's the the white layer for people of color, we don't it didn't it hits different for us. Just like you know, we talk about like Vietnam. So my dad did two tours in Vietnam. Not once, but twice. He said once was good, but twice was nice. So he came when he came back. He actually said that about this tour as a special individual. I really need to meet Papa James, the OG LeBron.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Shout out to Papa James. Look, there are people who won't talk about stuff because they went through it, and there are people who say, Let me tell you what it's been.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Oh, I'm telling you. And so imagine you do two tours in Vietnam for this country, and you're on the boat coming back in the Navy, and your commandant officer calls you the N-word. So my dad's reaction was to punch him in the face and broke his nose. And then my dad did two years in the brig behind that. So in the James household, we don't celebrate holidays quite. Why the way everyone else does?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Whoa, LeBron. You talk about layers. Here's someone who called. Did he put a flag up? That's what I was gonna ask. Not the flag. What does he put up?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

The people listening can't see my face.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Antonio is gritting his teeth.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah. Yeah. He wears the veteran hat, though. He'll wear the veteran hat. He'll wear the hat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Right. Man, I love that you said that though, because the you know, everybody's experience is their experience. And a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is the difference between the black American experience and the white American experience. And we, because it's just the three of us, we have no choice but to speak on behalf of an entire race. And so we can never cover everybody's everything.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Reynaldo Antonio is putting up two fingers because he's noticed that we talk a lot about the binary of black and white. There are Latinos, Asians, indigenous folk, and a whole bunch of other people having experiences that we haven't yet acknowledged and yet are going to participate in conversating for them too. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yes, we will. Most definitely. Yes, we will. Yes, we will. But what I love about the story, LeBron, is that you know, here's your dad who actually had a a bit of a positive outlook on doing two tours in one of the most fraught wars of all time in American history. And yet he can't even celebrate this holiday in a in a simple fashion. He can't just put out a flag and go, Yay, America. I'm so glad we take the time to memorialize people who I lost, who I knew. I'm sure he knew people that died. Yes. Oh, tons. So, but the the uniqueness of his experience is clearly not just because he's a human and he's he's multi-layered as we all are, but because he was black in the late 60s. Did he come back late 60s, early 70s? What was the beer, you know?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Well, he's been black in the 50s, the 40s, the 60s, the 70s. But really black in the 80s. He's still black in 2025. I'm just throwing that out there. But yes, black and serving in uniform.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yes. Sorry. And would you say that he is proud of his he's clearly proud of his service in the military? Yes. How does does he talk about the the American military in nuanced ways? I'm curious. What does he say?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

It's it's really complex. And so that's where I get most of my way of thinking is from is from my dad. And he just says, he goes, you know what? For black people, America leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It's the the aftertaste. You said white people goes down smooth. But if you're a person of color, there's always this little aftertaste. And then white people don't understand, like, why do you have that smirk? Because we have the aftertaste.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Dude. That was the the the look that Antonio had on earlier was that aftertaste look to great. But that's that's in did he also say the wind in your face thing? Yes. Oh okay. That's from the previous episode, Listener, where where LeBron described racism as, you know, racism is the wind is always in your face. Whereas if you're not the target of racism, the wind is always at your back. All right, amazing. So he experiences Memorial Day, any of the big, big American holidays. What what was July 4th in the James household like? What did you all do or not do? Okay, look.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I think my dad was really scarred by Vietnam. Clearly. And being chased by the clam as he grew up in West Virginia, which was He grew up in West Virginia. Yes. Antonio.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

And being and and well, I sorry, I raised my hand. Um I I think he was really scarred from having to serve two years for punching that motherfucker in the face.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yes, that was a whole nother scar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Right. That's a whole I'm just saying, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Yeah. So grew up in West Virginia, which Okay. Yes. So he remembers as a child being chased by the Klan. So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you this one quick story, then we can keep it or punch it. Let's go. So so my dad, as a veteran, wants to get paid for all the ailments and stuff that he suffered during this time in Vietnam. And the veteran administrations, they wait till you get old, they just they just delay it and delay it and hope that you don't live long enough where they have to pay you. So for the last part, they said, we need to send you to a psychologist to see you know if there was any damage done. So he said, Okay, great. So he goes to psychologist, this Jewish guy, and he asked my dad all about his childhood and growing up. And my dad, being unfiltered like me, told him every detail of his life. And I said, Well, dad, what did he say in the end? He goes, Mr. James, in my professional opinion, your life is fucked up. What's that? The PhD told my dad.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

That was a clinical diagnosis? Clinical PHU C K E D.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yes, Ph D D.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

PhD is in there. So I was like, wow, dad. Okay. But yeah, my dad remains the most optimistic, positive person. Yeah. You know, so the the complex part is my dad will get along with anybody. But he's like, white people, ooh, we something else. But individually, he could love you, bring you in, you know. So that's the crazy part about all this. That for him, white, or for me, white is like a system. It's not an individual. Yeah. And so that's why if I say, Oh man, I can't stand these white people. I'm not talking about an individual. I'm talking about the system. I'm talking about that wind in my face. But I don't think people understand that nuance. They're like, how can you say that? Like all of them? Like, no, not all of them. 99.9%.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Dude, this is revelatory. I'm listening to you going, I have been defensive for myself. I've been defensive for white people. I've even been into conversation with you. I've been defensive for Trump. Remember, I was like, I don't know. You guys were schooling me a little bit. And not as an individual. If y'all no one was privy to this conversation, but it was, you know, along the lines of I was playing devil's advocate about you know where he was coming from.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Wait, we had a conversation that wasn't recorded and distributed to the public?

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah, but just like the olden days when not everything was recorded. But to to echo some of the things from James Baldwin or Tanahasse Coates, where to survive in America, and your dad's a great example of this, LeBron, to survive in America and not be just bitter and angry and pissed off. And like that that part of his survival and thriving is that he's retained this attitude. And what that represents to me, meaning that positive attitude that you say, that represents an intellectual strength. That represents a wisdom that a lot of people don't get. And that when when you read some of the things, I was just I was just reading the quote, I think this morning from Ton Ozzy Coates talking about the degree to which black Americans have had to fight to just have an optimistic attitude is so high. It's just we've got to just dig in. And so now what's required of me as a white person is to have just a little bit of that. When when I hear someone say, damn these white people, I need to have the wisdom in that moment to go, they're not yelling at me, they're not accusing me of anything, they're frustrated with a system that continues to blow wind in their face. Just relax, let them talk. Don't get defensive. We are so defensive, aren't we, white people? Say it.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

We're defensive. I was gonna say, we're the experts, but we're not the white people. Um but to to bring up to bring us a little bit of whatever, um Baldwin said to be a Negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all of the time.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Wow. That is the quote. That will be in the show notes, people.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Right. And and so when we come to Memorial Day, right, the fact that people don't know it's decoration day, the fact that people don't know that there were 247 black Union soldiers who were buried in a mass grave after they were imprisoned in a prison camp by Confederates at a racetrack, and that after the Civil War was over, other black folk came and unburied them and buried them correctly individually and honored them, and then decorated the racetrack and held a parade and celebrated their contributions to freedom and have the nerve to talk about Memorial Day without memorializing those who've contributed to I'm proud to be an American, is this level of detachment, is this level of missing the point, is this level of not knowing where you've been, which tells us that where you're going is problematic that we continue to struggle with. It's not understanding July 4th as Independence Day didn't mean and doesn't mean Independence Day for everyone. It's not knowing that Juneteenth means that people were lied to for two years and held enslaved after they were free.

unknown 31:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

I know. I'm the one who said that there's other experiences, and then I'm stuck in the binary because the history of the United States says if you're not white, you are black. And if you're not quite black enough, then you get treated like that anyway.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yep. Yep. And so that complicated relationship, right? Once as good and twice as nice, and then you're gonna call me the N-word on the boat back. Black folks already got a problem with boats coming to the United States. Yeah. No wonder we can't swim.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Yeah. And he was in a different ocean entirely. He was in the Pacific.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Right. And so do so do Jewish folks have a problem with boats coming to the United States because those get turned away. So there's so much to this, right? We always talk about layers and how do we peel the layers off the onion and how do we get people to understand? Yeah. That's the power of talking about Papa James. That's the power of talking about, right? We didn't even, I think we cut your uncle's story and and all that. You know what I'm talking about. The the come on man. The bands?

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Yeah. We can well they can come in.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

But he didn't want to, he didn't he he didn't want to ride with anybody. You know what I'm saying? Like, yes, if we talked about the stories that our families have and listened to the experiences, it would change the way we celebrate because all of these things when we talk about them at the end of the day are about being with family. All of these things at the end of the day are about celebrating what brings us together. Yes. And it would be great to use LeBron's words if that flag represented everything and not a certain story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yeah. And you insinuated it, but I want to bring it to light in that the current president of this administration on Memorial Day sent a message through either Truth Social, whatever whatever mechanism he uses of Truth Social, about something about the military, some vague reference to veterans and something, and didn't say a thing about the fallen, about memorializing people who have died in war. Is that right? Yeah. So what that shows to me is the perfect picture of how thoughtless he is as an individual. And I don't mean thoughtless like he won't hold a door open for somebody, although he probably won't.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

He won't hold the door open for anybody.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

I mean there are no thoughts in your head other than what you want that serves you in the moment. And when I was thinking about talking about memorializing and whether it's Memorial Day or Juneteenth or anything, making a holiday meaningful, it takes thoughtfulness. And what you are leading us to, LeBron, your story and Antonia talking about the true history of decoration day behind Memorial Day, those are thoughts. Those are intelligent thoughts where you're pausing and going, wait, what's behind all of this? What is the meaning of this? And guess what? Another word for that is, folks. Woke. Ah! In your face. In your face. Being just like they try to, they've tried to redefine DEI and work on no, no, no. You're not we're not letting you redefine it. Although they've done a good job. We're saying we're gonna let's take back woke. Woke means thoughtful. Woke means like, wait, let's pause. What's the meaning behind all of this? And I know it can go out of control to the point like, can we just go to the bathroom? I don't care which one anymore. I don't care, like, I just need to go to the bathroom. Like, there's a there's an impracticality to being too thoughtful at some point. Like, just go through the door. You don't have to hold the door for me. I'm 12 seconds behind you. Whatever. But when when I consider like even us having this conversation, hearing LeBron, your dad's story, that makes me think differently about this holiday. Like it's it has awoken in me a different perspective. Uh a black American who willingly and even eagerly participated in two tours of Vietnam and was proud to do it, got called the N-word on the boat on the way home, punched the dude, served two years in the brig. You think that guy's gonna have a simple holiday celebration of Memorial Day? Listen, white person who just wants everybody to be happy on Memorial Day. It's gonna take a little bit more thought than that. Wake up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Wake up. And don't put raisins in the potato salad. I got a question for you, Lebron. I no, I really I do have a question, right? Because it is complicated, and yet does your dad celebrate the 4th of July?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

My dad does not celebrate any holidays. None. Zero. My entire life. No holidays.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

So you always knew Santa Claus didn't exist.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Did you ever get mad at him around Christmas? Like, you're just doing this because you don't want to spend any money on me, huh?

SPEAKER_01 37:01

But let me let me let me ask you again. For real, like, and I I hear I appreciate that. I'm not I'm not saying that he he secretly celebrates it and you just didn't know. No. But my question, I guess, is because he's got a complicated experience, as to be honest, we all do. Yes. Is there a piece like, do you get together on the 4th of July? Is that a bigger barbecue or not? Like, or does that not happen at all? When you say he doesn't celebrate, he doesn't celebrate.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

So if say the 4th of July fell on a weekend and we were barbecuing or something, he'll go. But he's not intentionally celebrating the holiday. But if we do something, we say, come on over, Pops, or we want to see you, he'll do it. But he just intentionally does not celebrate holidays. Gotcha. Okay. That's just a choice. Christmas, Thanksgiving, Fourth of July, Memorial Day.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

It's not happening. If y'all doing it and you invite him, he'll come for family. For family, for sure. He'll come to Right. Which going back to my original piece, right? There's not the we're not used. We uh controvert, invert, uh covert. No. Come on now. I'm a historian, not the English teacher.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Uh, not Lovert, like the group, no.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Not Gerald. No, not Gerald Loverty. Gotcha. Um I was gonna say invert the meaning, right? So we talked about, or I we I brought up family day. Uh I brought up Thanksgiving because it's always been like we don't my father has never called it Thanksgiving. Yeah. I don't think not once in 50 or four years that I've known him. Um and so it's always been family day, which is what it is, because we're getting together. Like we get together whenever we can. Those holidays tend to be an excuse, like, okay, now everybody gotta come, because you know, it's this, it's that, it's whatever. Um, but I'm I'm interested in how going forward, having had that experience, he expresses, right? We've also talked about patriotism, we've also talked about nationalism, we've also talked about um how do you participate in something that doesn't want your participation. Yes. And and so uh that's interesting to me that he doesn't celebrate any. Like he was like, I'm not even doing, you know, Kwanzaa.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Doesn't celebrate him. I said, Dad, why don't you? I mean, like that's what people are doing now, they're celebrating holidays. People are awoke now, they understand. He says, Son, don't woke them, let him slept. So I had to say the book, we need the Papa James book of quotes.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

I hate to disappoint you, Dad, but I started a podcast. Uh you've been mentioned a few times with the direct intent of woking people uh exactly among the byproducts that we hope for. If you if you anyway, hey Antonio, I want to go slept. Don't let them slept.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Welcome. That's the first piece of merch. Everybody go buy a t-shirt. Welcome. Welcome for the founders.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

And then on the back it says don't let them let them slipped. Let them slipped. Let them slip. So Antonio, do you remember growing up? Did did your mom or dad have to make the case for why we don't, as a Messias family, celebrate Thanksgiving?

SPEAKER_01 40:41

No, because it wasn't that we weren't getting together. It wasn't that other people weren't. I came home when I was six and I asked for a steak knife. And my parents, being the wonderful people that they are, didn't say no. They said, why? And I said, I have to cut the head. Right? Here we go. I had to cut the head off all my Native American action figures. Damn. And they said, why? And I said, because they're the bad guys. What in the Long Ranger was wrong with you? What was wrong with me? I was growing up, I I was going to a private school in kindergarten, and being the uber intelligent and very good looking person that I am.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

I know that you people at home can't see him, but I can confirm he's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Thank you. Um I literally got the message. They didn't say the Indians were bad, but they didn't have to explain the water. I got the message. And so, as a person of action, I was gonna do something about it. I came home, I was gonna cut the heads off all my, I was gonna decapitate. And right, and so this is the household I grew up in. I had Indian action figures. Yeah, wow, see? I don't think I had pilgrim action figures. Nope, you had Indian action figures. I had Indian action figures.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

So Antonio, I have one question for you. They was about to be done. Thank you. So you did that around the age of six. And what age do you realize? Oh shit, I'm the Indian.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

That's a good question. Yes. I want to say 15.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Do you kind of remember the thought precedent behind that or where you were? It might not have been one big realization.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

It was more of like a No, I think it was this is the part. Okay, here we go. Three for the Founders after dark. I think it was uh when I was a freshman in high school, my girlfriend uh was white, blue eyes, blonde hair, very beautiful young woman, um, whose father was in his late 60s and had grown up in Georgia. And so she brought me home. Thank you, LeBron, for making that face. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? She brought me home, and from that point on, and we dated all the way through high school, like all the way through high school. I just my mom sent me a bunch of pictures, you know, you know, mom cleaning out the closet and finds a bunch of pictures. And I when I tell you I had 30 formal, awkward post photos of me and this young woman from freshman year to senior year. Wow. Like we dated the entire time, and the entire time her father was antagonistic. Yeah. Her father was like, You're not the person who should be dating my daughter. So I don't know whether well, I do know I've I've met me. Um I know she was interested in me, but I don't know if that relationship lasted so long because she was also. Like I'm not listening to my dad. I'm pushing away. Her mom was her mom was cool. So it was that introduction for me where I went, What do you mean? I'm just Tony.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Wow. Now I got a comment for that, and then I got a question for you, John. Typically, I hear that story a lot about the the white father or the white father who pushes back when their daughter dates someone non-white. And then the mom is usually more understanding. I think because the mom, when she was young, got with somebody. So she know, girl, you shouldn't get that. Before you join this Fortune 500 club, you better go and get you some of that.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

She, if I can put this out there, she was understanding because she understood. Don't welcome, let them sleep.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Let them sleep. John, we need to know from you. We shared our experience around holidays. What was your experience with your family, other family members about holidays and how they viewed holidays and what level of reverence did they hold these holidays?

SPEAKER_00 45:17

My mom is and was especially then a very thoughtful person. And we and in the context of thoughtfulness that I said earlier. She's also just very thoughtful in general. But she's a teacher. She stayed home with us. They made a decision, my mom and dad, when we were very young, that she was going to stay home with us, and we survived on a very meager one salary of my pops as a musician trying to. As a musician. I remember him delivering sparkless water bottles. I remember him gigging and Catalina Island, he'd be gone for two weeks at a time. Papa Augustine had a stint where he was the house pianist at the Playboy Club.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

So wait, wait, wait, wait. The club, the club different from the mansion, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:02

I think so, yes. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

They're affiliated. I don't think they're on the same site.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

But uh I, you know, so we we're always meagerly celebrating, meaning we there was no lavish of anything. And my both my mom and dad moved from the East Coast. So my extended family, like my cultural roots, the Polish side, the Italian side are all in New York and Connecticut. And so I wasn't raised with like big family holidays, like they were. So what that my that put my mom in a position to make things special in in ways that weren't expensive. And the way she did that was thoughtfulness. So Christmas, she did a lot of very thoughtful things, like the, you know, and I and I'll I'll land the plane, I promise, around the topic we're talking about. But like I remember one thing she did when gifts were over, then there was always the stockings. It's like, oh, cool. Yeah, we have stuff. And then when Christmas night, well, like the 25th, you know, and you got all that, like all that adrenaline's done, and your sugar highs start to fade, you start to like, oh man, I'm already tired of this one toy or broke the one or whatever. She would always have one last gift under our pillow. And it was like a book or something. It was just cool, it was thoughtful, you know. Augustine, I heard that. Yeah, Rita, we call her Saint Rita. She's she's really something. And uh Thanksgiving was, you know, there was really no, there was a lot of education around it. Uh, you know, it's a lot of story about the pilgrims and the you know, the mythology that we all inherit. I do remember there being a nice, a nice acquiescence towards, you know, we the the white folks wouldn't have survived if it hadn't been for the kindness of the native people and all that kind of stuff. Um so yeah, I mean it was it was nice, it was meager, it was it was pleasant and it was thoughtful. That's kind of how we celebrated. And just like everything we're talking about, you know, I just imagined everybody was like us. Everybody had the same celebration. Everybody had that present under their pillow after on the 25th. Or I wouldn't have imagined there's any kid whose family decided not to celebrate for reasons like the Messias family did or the James. Like that's that's such a that would have been such a foreign concept to me at six or twelve or fifteen. I just thought everybody just did it like us.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Right. So I'm I'm wondering, help me out, John, because I need you to speak for all white people in this moment. Not to put it. Happens every time. So the the way, you know, Antonio and I have talked about the aftertaste we our families have with a lot of these holidays. I feel like when when we have these conversations and white people hear our version, that it's like telling them that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Like you're taking away the magic of the day. And that to me is part of my fear that that's when they're gonna shut down. Like, don't pop my balloon.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yes. Am I on for something or not? Am I overthinking this? You are, but it's very connected to our conversation about symbols, where if if our confidence, go ahead and sing, Glory. Go ahead. That's all right. Oh my Lord, yes. Will the Lord Okay uh the attachment to the the mirth and the joy, if it's that shallow and it can't sustain the the challenge of someone else that they're going through, the the stories you've told, then it really truly is thin. It's it's a very thinly veiled just cover of over something deep. So when you I would say there's there's probably plenty of white folks who be like, all right, enough already. I just don't don't rain on my parade here. I'm just trying to eat a hot dog, man. Stop getting and that's honestly, I really feel like that's what's behind this anti-woke movement is a lot of white people tired of black people talking, tired of brown people talking. Hey, shut up about the holidays already, man. Can I have one holiday? I've been working my ass off all week. I just want to eat a freaking hot dog. I want to play Leonard Skinnard, and I want to I want to drink some terrible beer with my boys. And you are over here being all woke. Stop it. Stop it. I do think that's behind it.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Um, you know, you you talked about racism as detachment. And we can actually say at this point, see episode one. Yes, um. And and that's that need for detachment. Yeah, because we don't want an emotional not go. Sorry. No, go. No, you go. No, the need to not. No, you. I go ahead. It's the need to not incorporate. It's the need to not pay attention to other people. It's the need, right? We talked about how this man got elected with 76 million votes. It's the need to believe the myth that they've been taught. I I wouldn't cut the heads off my Indian action figures today. But there's still people out there playing Cowboys and Indians.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

LeBron, you said something to me when you and I were just talking months and months ago. I asked you, what do black folks want from us? Speaking of like, speak for the entire race of black people. I got them. What do all the black people want from all the white people? And you're like, reparations. Let's start there.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Start with a check for unpaid labor. I don't know about the slavery part, but I put in if you look at my time card, yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

You could we could quantify this. Just look at redlining, we could come up with a number. Oh, no doubt. And uh, but you didn't actually say reparations. You said we you said, we want you to believe us. We want you to listen.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

Man, that is.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Is it true? Man, that is true. And when you say this right now, like instead of me being a child, thoughtless, empty in my head, and selfish, frankly, and saying, Don't come for my holiday happiness, don't come for my hot dog, don't come for my symbols, instead, I should say, you know what, why don't I pause? Let me listen. Whoa, are you that's that was your experience? Damn. And that changes things. It really does. It really does. And I and that's why I I at my like Pollyanna best, even about our like our conversation that we have, sometimes I think if people were listening to us and just if it made them pause for a second and go, oh my gosh, I believe LeBron when he says this. I believe Antonio. I don't think Antonio made up this idea of decapitating his little figurines. That happened. And if if you're a citizen, we talked about citizenship last time, like to be a good citizen of the United States, not a nationalist, a true patriot, is oh my gosh, I have a fellow citizen, a black fellow citizen, a black brother that I can see who uh who holidays are they're not the same for him. I should probably pay attention to that a little bit more. I should listen to that. Like that's that's the benefit of of hearing these stories from you all. Um, I gotta share the story. I'm I'm I'm at risk of talking for too long, but like Are you good?

SPEAKER_01 53:29

You all are there are three of us. I know, I need to stop doing that.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Um and I do trust that the people who can't see us, if I do go too long, Antonio's gonna throw up a visual T and he's gonna time me out.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Um I'm a middle school teacher for close to 25, 30 years. I the visual works.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Are you going to make me do push-ups?

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Not anymore. I don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

I know you can't, you got in trouble, huh?

SPEAKER_01 53:59

This is no, I didn't get in trouble. It's just a different is a different world from where you come from. Yes, different world.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

So here's the story. You all are very well aware that I have recently gone through a domestic evolution, also known as a divorce.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

But I love the way you said that. That was lovely. A domestic evolution.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Now, let me tell you, when the Augustine family was intact in its former organizational structure. Yes, Augustines went hard on Christmas. Horde. Horde Christmas. Horde. I'm talking. When it was time, we had a big old house. You both saw a big old house. When it was time to get the decorations out for Christmas, my kids rolled their eyes because they knew what that meant was dad was gonna pull the SUV out of the three-car garage. I was gonna pull the ladder down, the attic above the three-car garage, and I was gonna start handing them plastic totes. And after 12, they're like, Dad, is this it? I'm like, we're not even halfway there, boys. Because we're gonna decorate every corner. This is the snowman room, this is the ceramic room, and I'm not even joking. I know you're not.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

That's why we're smiling.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Went hored. So 2024, last December, and I'll say 2023, really, was my first experience of Christmas as a soon-to-be unmarried person. Okay, don't live in that house anymore, don't have the nuclear family in place, so I am living an entirely different experience. And let me tell you something. It's not like us, it's not like us, it's not like us, it's not like us, it's not like us.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Oh, you got Santa Crip walking on crenshaw.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

And here's where it went so bad. It got to the point, okay. So, like, I'm in Home Depot, and I mentioned it before, but it's like, you know, October 31st, trees go up, decorations like, okay, here it comes. And it's bringing all the you know, like the memory. So my body still has a sensation of this season. And I'm my body's used to like, all right, this is the time we decorate, this is the time. And I and so, but my brain's like, no, you don't have a house to decorate, you don't have a family, you don't have little kids, you know, like oh, okay. So there's this I'm living a conflict, man. And I'm I swear to you, by November 18th, I was fucking done with Christmas, man. I'm like, already, yeah, already. And I called two Jewish friends, and I'm like, is this what it's like for you all every year? Because I think I'm having a Jewish person's experience of Christmas right now, enough already. You all are going way overboard, man. And I told a couple of them, like, you guys have it figured out. Like, you're like, you know what? We do these eight days, give some gifts. There's, you know, we have what's nice. It's what that obviously Jewish holidays are the other ones that are way bigger than Hanukkah. Right. Um, but I just I thought in light of the holiday conversation we're having, I'm like, man, in my own personal life, my situation changed to a point where I'm experiencing this holiday an entirely different way now because of the way things are different. And that's every holiday could be that dramatically different for everybody based on family situation, based on racial background, based on this and this and this. But anyway, y'all just need to check on your boy around November 18th. This year, no, we got you. We got you. We got you.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

We got you.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

I still was great. When the truth is, just like you all, you said the Messias family, this is what we do on Thanksgiving. The James family is what we do. Like my family has now since evolved. Our kids figured a thing out. It's very happy, it's very joyful, it's very different, but it required thought, it required perseverance, it required some deliberate actions, and uh that's it's an evolution, man.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

John, you are what I hope everybody who's listening to this podcast is, and that's woke.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

So thank you for joining us. Still got questions, other things you want to say? Hit us up at 3 for the founders on Instagram or TikTok and let us know. Till the next time, Left On Founders.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

We out. Thank you for listening to the Three for the Founders podcast. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speakers' own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of any professional or academic institution. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. Listen at your own risk of becoming woke. There you have it. I will take it. I will take it. That's called a button. Nice job. We need to try to hang out. It's not gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

When you know better, you do better. And so this conversation, and we take it to the politics and dismantling the Department of Education, and we take it to the book bands, and Tanahasie being in a room where they're trying to ban his book, and we talk about the Trump administration trying to eliminate, right, slavery from the national narrative. We talk about them defunding the African American Museum in Boston, which needs it because we talked about Boston already. Yes, Lakers, Lakers and Five. Yes, um Right, and so there's so much that if you don't know, I can't hold you responsible for not acting. But if you do know, right, or you hear it, I can hold you responsible for actively pushing it away. True.