EP03 - The golden age of boutique

The independent channel is bifurcating. Mega utility firms on one end, boutique relationship firms on the other, and the middle is quietly disappearing.

In this episode, Steven Watts sits down with Founders Financial CEO Brad Shepherd and President / CIO Peter Murphy to unpack how leadership of a broker-dealer and RIA has changed amid waves of M&A, fintech disruption, and shifting advisor expectations. They contrast the "utility" model of mega firms with the relationship-driven approach of boutiques, argue that technology has leveled the table stakes, and explore why the affiliation choice now comes down to who advisors actually want as a partner. The closing leadership truth: the most important word these days is no.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

From Founders Financial, this is the Built By and For Podcast. Partner-to-partner conversations for independent financial advisors. Today, host Steven Watts, Chief Growth Officer at Founders Financial, sits down with Brad Shepard, CEO, and Peter Murphy, president and CIO at Founders Financial to discuss leading a boutique broker dealer and the leadership work of saying no. The independent channel is bifurcating, mega utility firms on one end, boutique relationship firms on the other, and the middle is quietly disappearing. Here's the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

All right, thanks. Thanks for uh for joining me, guys. Um I'm here with our president and chief investment officer, Peter Murphy, and our chief executive officer, Brad Shepard. So welcome, guys. We got a I think a fun topic today, a topic that I think is on uh the minds of many advisors out there, all about legacy. Or maybe it's not so much on their minds and it needs to be on their minds, right? So we should be a fun uh fun conversation. So as we get into this, kind of we teed up for the conversation we're gonna have. What should legacy mean for advisors today? When they're thinking about their future, you know, their their current situation, their firms, their clients, all that stuff. What should legacy, in your opinion, mean for the advisors today?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

You want to start? Yeah, sure. Yeah, no, thanks for thanks for doing this and having us here this morning. Um I I actually like to start with what shouldn't it be, right? Um and to me, what it shouldn't be is just a monetization event. Um yeah, for many advisors that have built independent successful practices, um, it's become a significant asset, probably in their own personal financial journey and their net worth, all that kind of stuff. And um I just hope for the people that they've uh served, and I hope for the organization they've built that the event isn't just about a monetization. Uh, and I think we see a lot of that going on in our industry at this point. I think it should be much more about uh the continuity of care, much more about uh the legacy of their good works and building relationships and helping people achieve their goals and dreams ultimately. Pete, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah, I'd offer a slightly different perspective. I in my experience, I believe most advisors aren't even thinking about legacy. They're so consumed by today and what's going on in their world today that the idea of thinking to a future beyond them is either they don't have time to do it, they're they're scared of doing it, and they really haven't put the intentional thought toward it. And so for me, legacy is about what is the mark that you want to leave? And what is the mark that you want to leave on the people that you've touched and impacted, whether that is the relationships you serve through your enterprise, whether that is the stakeholders that you may have in your enterprise, whether that's your family, friends, your community, it's about the mark you want to leave. And that's something that seems too big for a lot of people to think about. And it's but it's the most important thing. It gets down to the essence of the why of what you do. And for me, that's what legacy should mean to uh advise.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

It's kind of like, you know, it's maybe they recognize it's important, but they'll kind of keep putting it off, keep putting it off till they actually need to confront it. Yeah, we're gonna get into the risk of waiting too long and living maybe too much in the present there and not thinking we'll we'll get into that. So has the the idea of um legacy, and you mentioned the monetization uh aspect of it, has that evolved over recent years with all the new money that's coming into the industry and the way people think about it in that terms? Has that evolved for it used to be maybe 15, 20 years ago to where it is now, or is it all kind of been the same?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly has evolved. There's no doubt about that. Um when you consider um the valuation metrics that the industry's put forth for advisory practices and wealth management practices, it's hard for advisors not to think about that uh through through that lens candidly. I think Pete makes a wonderful point though, in the sense that um legacy is probably not at the forefront. You know, they're they're distracted and consumed every single day with a whole bunch of responsibilities and trying to live up to promises they've made. Uh, and so it's it is it needs to be an intentional action, uh thoughtful intentional action um towards um you know something that's probably bigger than what they do on a daily basis that ties in all of this. But the evolution of it is is uh front and foremost and center all the time because of the nature of how uh private equity and the nature of how um they've been, you know, advisors have been taught that this is a significant asset that they own.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Yeah. Yeah, right. Um so let's jump into kind of the point you were making, the the cost of not planning, right? And and living too much in the present and not thinking about what that future holds for clients and and their teams and frankly themselves. So, what are the common risks that a lot of advisors are gonna face if they start planning too late? Like if they get to a point where um you know they're ready to retire and they've done nothing up to that point. What what risks are they are they facing in that regard?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, the the the biggest risk is is they're gonna massively limit their options and they're gonna massively reduce the control they have to influence the outcome they seek. And so the less preparation that's done in advance, the less chance they have of orchestrating a succession plan and a legacy that is what they want, that's intentional, that meets not just their monetary needs, but it meets their broader needs in terms of leaving an impact, leaving a mark, leaving a legacy. And so it takes a lot of time. Legacy planning should really start right at the very beginning. You oftentimes, if you start at the end, it can really guide where you are today in the beginning. And so it should be an ever-present part of the thought process, the strategic planning process for every independent advisory practice, because most independent advisors went independent to control their own destiny. And so if you focus on that in the present, that's great. You get to use the technology you want, you get to use the investment management solutions you want, you get to hire the people that you want. So that's all great, but don't you want that same independence on the back end? And don't you want to dictate the terms of how you leave this industry, how you leave your enterprise and practice for the next generation to continue serving your relationships?

SPEAKER_03 6:08

It's kind of ironic, you know, those financial planners for everyone else, but not necessarily for their own life and legacy, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:14

That's exactly what I was just gonna say. You know, you hear about the cardiologist that has a heart attack, right? Uh, because they don't take their own medicine. So do what I say, not as I do, to the right. Yeah. So how many advisors um don't spend time intentionally building for themselves their own plan, which includes exit, uh which includes these thoughtful considerations about what's important to them, uh, why they've been doing what they've been doing all these years. Um you know, they're kind of magna carta about what's about what their life has been. And uh I think too many people don't spend enough time in this industry considering this the right way. Uh they focus on the the monetary aspects and and what they've built, this this living organism so much more than that. Um and their legacy is, I think, for most at least that I talk to, it is very, very important. And so the same principles they apply to the the beautiful works they do to serve people, you know, kind of look in the mirror a little bit and apply it to themselves and ask this very important question. When I'm not here, what's it look like? What does it mean? What's important to me about what's left behind? And and uh, you know, you've heard me tell a story, you know, we're at St. Peter's and we're at the Pearlie Gates, and we look down and we hear in our celebration of life people talking about us. What do we what do we want to hear them saying? Yeah. Um and hopefully what we want to hear them saying that that we've done good works for people. And so then how does an independent advisor prepare the road to the continuation of their good works?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Yeah, I I kind of think of it um or thought about like this, and you guys can keep me honest here and check me if I'm wrong, but you know, the advisor in many ways, they're it one way, they're gonna get taken care of. They're gonna monetize their practice, they're gonna, they're gonna be able to enjoy some. Might not be if they planned it early, you know, get everything they wanted, but they're gonna enjoy their life afterward for the for the most part. But clients and stakeholders, staff, the team that they're leaving behind, there seems like a big risk there, right? Like that that group is if without planning and thoughtful planning by the advisor, like are those people really at risk in this process? The continuity of care aspect is is Yeah, it's not just a client continuity of care, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:09

It is the people that have helped you build this this uh this organization. Uh no, it's it's a very it's a very important point, which which is again why uh to Pete's point and to your point, it's all about this holistic comprehensive assessment. And it's more than just the economic outcome. It's how does your um model, your processes, your workflows, your people, your systems, your technology, your investment management, how does it fit in the in the future world when you're not there? Um for most advisory practices, um, they, you know, and we've talked about this before, advisors become independent because they want more control. They want to own their destiny, but they still need systems and process, all the things around them to achieve all of that. They've got businesses to run. Well, businesses need to continue to run absent the advisor being there. And so, how do you find the right partner? Um, do you assess an internal assessment of acquisition and transition? Do you look for an external partner? All these very important questions to make sure that what the people that you serve have come to know, they can continue to know it if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Yeah. Well, let's stay on that. So internal versus external options. Talk about what the options advisors have these days, what both of those models kind of look like. Why would an advisor choose one versus the other? Um, let's let's yeah, start there. Whoever wants to jump in.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Just starting, just historical perspective is important here, right? So when an advisor goes into independent, they're they're they're launching a practice, right? And so if you think about all these professional services out there in the economy, you can have legal practices, you can have um medical practices, you can have all of these knowledge-based and service-based professions that are practices. So oftentimes, practices are very much tied up in an individual personality. So, in this case, an advisor. And so the question becomes do you want to take your practice beyond you to become an enterprise? And that requires a significant shift in mindset. You go from being a practitioner and an expert in a certain field to being a CEO and a business owner. And so if you just want to stay as a practitioner, what will happen ultimately is your practice may live on behind you if you find a good partner to come in and step into your shoes, or you just find another practice to roll up and in into some other firm. And that happens all the time accounting, law, and the like. Because it's so tied up in a personality, a name, an individual. But if you decide to make that shift to becoming an enterprise, if you decide to make the shift to being a genuine business owner and thinking about it as an enterpriser, everything changes in that moment because it goes beyond you, right? You're trying to create something that is larger than you and in an ideal world that will span well beyond you. And that requires investment, that requires intentional planning and preparation. And if you go the latter path, you have a lot more options. You can develop succession next generation internally. You can build an apprenticeship program on your own if you choose to. You can still go the path of selling externally if you don't want to take the time and energy to do that. You you have so many more options if you begin to think as an enterpriser and not just a practitioner.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

So to your point earlier, that that that's a that's a you got to start that thinking early on in the process. You're not doing that, you know, at 55 years old, 60 years old when you're you're towards the end.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah, if you're at the end, then you're ready to be finished. It's it's too late. Yeah. And that's why I said earlier that the time to start thinking about legacy planning is right when you start your practice and what do you ultimately want to be, because then you can make every intentional decision along the way to put you in a position where you have the choice. You're not just destined to a path. True.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, I think about internal versus external, like growing from within or you know, selling to the out uh is kind of the hard versus easy, easy decision, right? That the it's which button do I want to push. Uh and at this point in this industry, the easy button is don't think about all that stuff, don't worry about it. I'm gonna get to the day where I'm willing to walk away and somebody's gonna hand me a check to do so. And that's just facts at this point. Uh, because unfortunately, so much of the industry views um the revenue stream, the recurring revenue stream of the client as the is the most important thing. As you know, we don't believe that. And so to me, it's this fundamental, difficult but fundamental choice. The hard path, which is grow it, build it, um, nurture it, um, let it be something that takes on its own life.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

So just beyond you, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

It goes grows grows beyond you, but that requires a long-term mindset. It requires a horizon of growth and development. It means that you never stop growing both your people, your resources, your platforms, your technology, your enterprise, as Pete said so well. It's the difference between a practitioner mindset and an enterpriser, you know, CEO mindset. Uh and so, you know, I don't think there's a right or wrong choice. There's it's it's you know, they build an asset, it's their choice to make. But um I think it's the it's this decision about probably what's the more meaningful, but probably more difficult process. And the easy button, which is what's most important to that advisor, probably isn't the the legacy of their of their care, the continuous relationships. And what most important was building an asset that they could monetize ultimately.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

So is it fair, is it a fair assumption to say that the the the the growth of MA, the growth of people just selling their practice is more of a byproduct of just lack of early planning? Or is for some, is that truly just the better option for better for valuation, or is it they just waited too long, they have no choice at this point.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to it. It again, it gets back to what is your ultimate goal and what is what is the risk that you're willing to bear and what is the risk they're unwilling to bear, right? So they're just different risks. So if you decide that you're gonna sell externally and you're gonna sell to a roll-up type of firm, the risk you're bearing there is that your legacy is probably not gonna stick around, right? You're gonna get rolled up, your brand's gonna go away. They're buying the asset, which is the clients that you have. They're not buying your brand. They find their good willingness. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

And we see that all the time at this point, right? Where that's not what's most important.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

It's a monetary transaction. But what that does is it removes the risk because you get paid, right? And so you're gonna get monetized at a value, there's gonna be an earnout, so you're gonna have to make sure that that that business sticks for some period of time. But that reduces some of the financial risk, but it also significantly heightens the risk that the legacy that you're gonna leave is gonna be gone in fairly short order, right? Which is the typical process. But on the other side of the ledger, it's also important to understand that the risks are different, right? So if you're gonna sell internally to a younger next generation advisor, they don't have the financial wherewithal of a of a of a private equity-backed roll-up MA firm. And so you're gonna likely go through a seller finance note and you're gonna take on that risk that that person is prepared to run the business that you've groomed. It's a longer-term play as opposed to a shorter term play. The odds are still great that you're gonna monetize, but the the what I'll call the kicker or the call option is your enterprise can sustain for another generation. Your people can stay intact, your philosophy, the way you do business can actually sustain. And then you can leave a mark in in in terms of other people. We often talk about as the ripple, right? You drop a pebble in and water and it ripples out. So if you're in this business because of the relationship aspect of this business and building relationships, growing relationships and getting empowered through relationship, the latter path is the only option that you would choose. But it comes with different risks.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah, that makes sense. Is there a i if they if they like the path of keeping that enterprise around and keeping the legacy going and not just a monetization event? Are there misconceptions advisors have about really how much time they actually have? We talked earlier about you know kicking the can down the road a little bit. Is there misconceptions truly that, hey, I've got more time than I think?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, I I you know it's it's an interesting question. Um I think given the current. Yeah. But it but it's like anything that you spin up quickly. Did you think about it right? Did you did you actually get the optimal uh outcome you were seeking from it? Anymore because of the way the industries evolved, you can pretty much, you know, on a Monday say, I want to sell and probably be sold in 90 days and and you're walking away. I mean, it probably could be done that quickly. Um I don't think that is probably the most important thing. I it comes back to what we just opened this whole conversation with, and that is what is important to that independent financial advisor who built a business with their blood, sweat, and tears that represent who they were, their heart, their care, their intellect, their their wisdom, their perspective. Is it important to them that that carries on in a manner that's consistent with what they've built, or are they willing to kind of walk away and take the risk, as Pete described it, to let that kind of just you know flitter away over time? Um, because as you get into scale-based businesses that are economically motivated, um the the the candid answer is that they want shareholder value, probably more than client value. And the outcome of that is continuing to make thin and lean the the service delivery model ultimately, make it tech heavy, make it all this, versus what has been what's empowered the advisors to become successful in the first place, which is their shared heart to the people that they're they're serving on a daily basis. They're living up the promises in their local communities and and um and growing a business that way.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, the what I would say on that is what we typically experience is that the default position is to not take a position. So a lot of advisors will just know that this is out there, but they'll just procrastinate, they'll put it off because there's a there's a degree of finality to the decision, right? Like it's with retirement, when do I retire? But in this case, it's when do I not only when do I retire, but what do I do with this business I've built? And so there's a lot of procrastination we see, and and that's the worst case outcome, right? Because what happens then is you really pigeonhole yourself, and what's likely to happen is some unfortunate event's gonna occur and it's gonna be a forced issue on a on a tight time frame that's never gonna lead to optimum outcome, optimal partner, optimal value. So that's why the preparation part is so important, is even if you're not ready today, if you've begun planning and preparing, the ultimate value you'll realize for your practice, whether you sell external or internal, will be higher because you have a plan in place and because you prepared. So by doing it today, you're enhancing the the long-term enterprise value of your practice. But by not doing it today, you're leaving a glaring risk on the table that is out of your control that could dramatically increase the risk to the value you ultimately modem monetize, either for you or your family.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Yeah, I I love the the what you said there about the finality of it. I wonder if there's the the psychological impact of making a decision or planning, because that you know a lot of people don't like think about the finality of of a lot of things. Their own death, their own mortality, their mortality of their practice. It's like, hey, I don't want to deal with this right now. I'm just gonna keep pushing it off. And eventually you can't put it off anymore. You get to the point where something's happening. You're out of options, something happens to you.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, it's it's uh it's a complicated thing to ultimately walk away from, I believe. Uh you spend a lifetime, uh, most advisors decades building relationships. And so I always I always kind of uh joke with our advisors. Um, is this how it goes? Hey, hey, Steve, it's Brad Shepherd calling. How are you doing, man? Say how am I doing? How's it going? It's going great. I just want to let you know that I've earned enough fees and commissions from the uh work we've done for over all these years that I have enough money to retire now. So hey, thanks for that. I'm walking away. See you bye. I mean, it's talking about finality, right? Is that is that how it's gonna go? I I don't think so. I mean, all the advisors that I know, and there are plenty at this point, um, they they care a lot and they really want to protect the people that they've built these wonderful relationships with. You can't just walk, you don't walk away from relationships. And what I what I see from advisors that take the the easy button approach, take the check, walk away, leave it to the the roll-up firm to now handle, is there's a there's a there's something within them they know is not right. Um and I wouldn't say broken, but they know that they didn't quite finish the cross the finish line the way they probably intended to. Yeah. Um and they've left their clients in a good enough place from a you know perspective of the work will get done, the investments will get managed, the plan will be delivered upon. But the but there's they they leave something behind. And so it's really to me, uh it's it's in many ways a very emotional, philosophical decision for an advisor to make, um, as much as it is a monetizable economic decision and a process decision. Uh, I mean, again, how do you walk away from people you've built as your friends and your family over all these years? Yeah. You know, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

It's a perfect segue to kind of what I want to get into next, which is the the continuity of care for for clients uh specifically. So when when succession and and legacy plan are handled well, how do clients typically react? Like what what what do they feel about the process? And you can c you can compare and contrast that versus when it's handled poorly. Yes, right. But how what's that reaction like from a client perspective?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

That's a great question. I I think it's the difference between thankful and and complacency, right? Uh if done if done well. When when relationships are nurtured to an end outcome that they're a participant in and they've been brought along, it's been transparent, uh, it's been open, there's been proper and appropriate professional personal introduction and relation building with the next generation advisor or the people are gonna be taking care of this thing, that experience it's it's it's incredible versus the firms that kind of just sell and and leave their their clients in a place of, well, I didn't choose that. Do I do I even want that?

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

So it's a nurtured process versus a An event finality kind of driven process to me.

unknown 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah. I I would just add to it, it's it's it's highly dependent on the preparation that goes in the process. So whether you sell externally or you d decide to do internal succession, if you sell externally to the right partner and they're aligned to you philosophically, they're aligned to your service model and you prepare appropriately, that can be a wonderful transition in terms of continuity of care to the client relationship. Um, no different than internal. If you groom the next generation properly, they're prepared to take on the responsibility and the role, you've built systems and processes in your practice to continue delivering the high level of service, it'll be a wonderful experience. But in both scenarios, if you don't pick a partner that's aligned to you, if you don't, and you take a bigger multiple with a firm that's not aligned and delivers worse service, you know how your clients are gonna feel. They're gonna feel like they lost a relationship, they lost a partner and you monetize your business. Um, no different if you turn your practice over internally to a next generation person that's not prepared, not ready to run the business, then they're gonna feel like things have gotten worse. Yeah. Right. And so it really all comes back to the advisor and the preparation work they do to ensuring the continuity of care is right, whether that's through an external partner and vetting that partner and making sure the service is aligned and the philosophy is aligned, or the internal succession, making sure the systems, processes, and people are in place to carry forward without the advisor.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And the the partnership, we've had this conversation with both of you multiple times, is is the partnership is so key to a lot of the areas of how the advisor is going to be successful, right? And succession and legacy planning no different. We've seen this in our own business. I mean, we've seen advisors go through our apprenticeship program and how that's been you know just a beautiful experience for everyone involved. It's it's it happens over many, many years, and it's been a great experience for not only the advisor who is you know transitioning out, but the new young next gen advisor coming in and how they're more equipped and more ready to prepare to take over, and how the clients, to your point or other, are brought along really, really nicely, really cleanly. They're they're involved, they're aware of the whole process. You've also seen it work really well for matchmaking situations where we have two advisors have you know a need, whatever it might be, and and they get connected and one advisor transitions out. And again, that process with the partnership, and I think to tutor our harn away, we've done a really good job with with our advisor in situations. It's worked really, really well when the partner is aligned with the objectives of all parties. Right. I think it's exactly what you were you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah, no question. And and for us, it's we've we've intentionally built and grown this private community over three decades now. And so every member partner, every advisor who chooses to partner with us is a fit here culturally. They are a relationship first, they have a heart to serve, they want to be in partnership with us. And so, because of that, it makes the succession process within founders a lot simpler for the advisor, right? They have both paths as you've described. They can partner, they can monetize, et cetera, but they can build the internal succession. But because the alignment is there, all three paths are viable paths for them through the through the lens of the founders' world. And that's because we've built this place intentionally and we've partnered with people who fit culturally. It's not meant to be a place for everyone and every everything just because they have assets. It's got to go deeper than that.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

The question I think about along these lines is um is there a difference between a client and a relationship? Right? Our industry calls people clients, as you know. We were very proud to think of them as relationships. And the difference then through this decision, this lens we're talking about today, the hard versus easy, is how does the advisor view who they serve? And so if you view the people you serve as clients, customers, um, then probably the in the easy button path, uh the monetization path with less consideration to these big, important, you know, complex things that we've talked about today, it gets easier to make. But if you're serving relationships, um and I'm proud to say founders, our members, they serve relationships. That that makes almost out of necessity the hard path, the right path, if that makes sense. Because what that then requires is a certain honoring of something that is the difference between how you serve a client and how you serve a relationship. Um, and and you think about in your personal life, your professional life, those that are you know, clients, which means they're kind of one step removed from the a deep emotional philosophical reason to to to come together versus a relationship. And what that means, I think an honest consideration of an advisor of who is it they serve will then also help dictate kind of what uh what path they might take with that decision. Yeah, great point.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

All right, we're gonna we're gonna wrap up here. So I had a couple rapid fire questions. These are meant to be short answers. Yeah, fun part, short answers, kind of first thing that comes to your mind. Uh we'll we'll start Brad, Pete, and and keep going back and forth. Um one step every advisor listen they should take right away when it comes to thinking about their legacy and succession planning. Like what should they do right now, you know, right out of the gate?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah, I mean, my my rapid-fire answer to that is ask themselves the same questions they ask the relationships that they serve. What's most important to them when they think about not being where they are today?

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yeah. Define what's most important to you.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Perfect. What is one of the biggest mistakes advisors make when we start thinking about succession and legacy planning?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Procrastinate.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Procrastinate. Yeah, I agree. They wait, they wait too long. How does having a plan in place change their day-to-day?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

I I I think it's about freedom uh and and comfort that they are prepared for scenarios that are really important things to think about.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

They're better leaders. One word that defines a successful advisor legacy.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

One word. I actually think it's legacy.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

All right, last one. Um you start planning early.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

That they don't have the enterprise, they think they do.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

That they're less clear on what they want than they think they are.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

That's a great one. That's a great one to end on. So we're gonna stop there. Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us uh for great conversation. Um, hopefully, we got a lot of good insights out of it. So thank you for your perspective and sharing all your thoughts and wisdom. And uh hopefully have you guys back on again soon and talk about some more fun topics. Always great to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Thank you, Steve. Thanks, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Thanks for spending time with us on the Built By and For podcast. If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and share it with an advisor in your circle who's thinking about what comes next. To learn more about Founders Financial and our solutions for independent advisors, visit Foundersfinancial.com. The Built By and For podcast is produced by Founders Financial. The opinions expressed by hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Founders Financial. Content is for informational purposes only and is not intended as investment, legal, or tax advice. Securities offered through Founders Financial Securities LLC, member FINRAM and SIPC, registered investment advisor. Copyright Founders Financial, all rights reserved.