Does sustainability come at a price? 💸

Does sustainability come at a price? 💸

There's this perception that sustainability comes with a price tag, both for travelers and travel businesses, but is that really the case? 🤔

That’s the big question we explore in this week’s episode of Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow. 

In this discussion, we look at what it actually takes to create positive impact in tourism, with or without a big budget. 🌿

We’ll share clips from our interview with Natalie, Head of Positive Impact at luxury tour operator Jacada Travel.  

She offers a fresh take on what luxury really means, and how it can go hand in hand with sustainability. ✨

Whether you're working with five-star lodges or five-dollar budgets, this episode is for you.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 3:43 The new definition of luxury
• 6:16 Key areas to make positive impact
• 9:47 Reducing carbon footprint
• 13:05 Targeting a specific audience
• 15:59 Internal communication and positive impact
• 17:52 Does sustainability come at a price?

Transcript

Anne: [00:00:00] working with larger budgets is easier because you have more choice in where to go, which conservation projects to fund, which charities to work with.

Anne: I. but it doesn't mean that traveling on a budget can't be sustainable.

Rik: Welcome back to Sustainable. Today's Successful Tomorrow, where we explore real world sustainable tourism stories that actually work. There's this perception that sustainability comes with a price tag, both for travelers and travel businesses, but is that really the case? That's what we'll be exploring in today's episode.

Rik: And for some more insights, we've interviewed Natalie, who's done a wonderful job as head of the Positive Impact team at Jacada Travel, a luxury tour operator. And in today's episode we'll share some clips from the interview, and next week we'll release the full conversation.

Rik: [00:01:00] So, Anne is a bigger budget really the key to sustainability? 

Anne: I think that's a very sensitive question, but as a very concise answer, I don't think you can't travel sustainably with a smaller budget. But I do think that the more budget you have, the more positive impact you can create while traveling.

Anne: I. 

Rik: I suppose that's true. In the end, it's all about making the right decisions, right? 

Anne: That's definitely the case. So do you have any news to share? 

Rik: Actually we're talking about positive impact today, and that made me think, I read this book recently, moral Ambition by this Dutch author, Rutger Bergman. Yeah. which is about positive and negative impact in a sense.

Rik: And, one idea from this book really stuck to me, and that is that he states that, negative impact eventually leads to a net zero result. So no impact at all. No impact at all. 

Anne: Okay. 

Rik: And if you do that perfectly, you might as well don't exist at all.

Anne: No. [00:02:00] 

Rik: So instead of focusing on making no negative impact, we should focus on making as much positive impact as possible with our own resources, knowledge and skills.

Rik: That's a pretty interesting take. 

Anne: Yeah, that's a very interesting take. And this book is definitely on my list as well, but I haven't had time to dive into that. but I really think like what you said resonates as in with the skills and knowledge and the time that you have, you should try and make as much positive impact you can, like limiting your footprint is not necessarily a good thing.

Anne: Is that kind of what the conclusion is? 

Rik: Well, it is. You can. Minimize your negative impact, but it shouldn't be the end goal because if that is the end goal, what are we doing it for? 

Anne: yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also the case that we just started working, with, Evaneos here on Bali.

Anne: like we knew, the negative impact tourism has on Bali and we still moved here. So that's also [00:03:00] why it's a great. Opportunity for us to really, contribute to Bali being a better place to live in, but definitely a better place to visit, and to really put our. Energy in, creating positive impact, while we're here.

Rik: That's been one of our main goals for the first half year is to get involved in some local projects. 

Anne: Yeah. 

Rik: it's important to be involved in a community that you live in and to definitely make that positive impact. 

Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm also very much looking forward to the, coral, reef planting and plantings too.

Anne: so as a diver, you go, in and help plant and restore reefs. So this is a great positive impact that we can make here. 

Rik: I'm not much of a diver for myself, but it does seem pretty cool. 

Anne: Yeah.

Rik: Yeah. Let's dive straight into the main topic of today.

Rik: Does sustainability come at a price? And you've asked Natalie in your interview how she's balancing luxury and sustainability. Let's listen to a clip . Yes.

Natalie: I think that [00:04:00] there's two different paradigms of what luxury is, and like the old paradigm is extraction consumption, flying everywhere, buying things. That's not the luxury that we're talking about here, and I think that's not how our clients define luxury either. I. The way that they define luxury is exclusive access to nature or authentic experiences.

Natalie: Really feeling like they're in the moment. These things are very powerful and they can be done in a way that is incredibly sustainable, but also has the ability to be a force for good to fund conservation projects, to work with charities, to work on community empowerment.

Rik: That's such an interesting take on luxury because it's not at all how we see luxury traditionally, right? 

Anne: no, not really because it's like, it's the new luxury in life, right? So the ability to take travel slow and to really, take your time and to, contribute to a place while having the best time.

Anne: it's a luxury to be able to experience that. [00:05:00] At the same time, Jacada offers, eco luxury, camps, boutique hotels, and they have an amazing positive impact collection. But. you need a budget to be able to afford these places. So it's definitely a luxury, that comes with a budget.

Anne: but it's an interesting take in, shifting the paradigm as a luxury doesn't mean, private jets Like it's, yeah, it's a different take.

Rik: I completely agree. Taking your time is definitely a luxury. on the other hand, it's easier to think about sustainability with these higher margins.

Anne: Yeah, no, definitely. Like the more, budget you have, the more opportunities you have in terms of where you can go, where you can stay, and what experience you, want to do.

Anne: No, absolutely. And what I really like what Natalie is saying is that with this higher budget, they're really aiming to make as much positive impact as possible. So I think, yeah, I think that's a really good and interesting thing.

Rik: And another thing that really stood out to me was the way they communicate. They don't [00:06:00] really talk about impact reports but they do mention, to their clients things like having unfiltered access to nature, which is so much more powerful. 

Anne: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's all about what's in it for the traveler and being able to experience that is a luxury.

Anne: yeah, I love that. What they do. 

Rik: Yeah, exactly. And for businesses, there are so many ways to make a positive impact. What do you feel are the key areas that a business can make impact? 

Anne: it's definitely not, just like a one department initiative, positive impact should be really embedded throughout the entire organization and should really be in, in DNA of an organization.

Anne: You can't just say, okay, I want to make positive impact here. It doesn't work like that. But where to start would obviously be your operations, so your office management, but also, having a responsible supply chain. So working with partners that share your values and also, aiming to reduce your, carbon footprint.

Anne: I. and then definitely your, product design. So creating [00:07:00] responsible travel experiences with your local partners that create positive impact. focus on community-based tourism, but really develop it on local terms in collaboration with the locals. provide them with ownership, because this is really the only way you can offer.

Anne: Authentic travel experiences, if it's on local terms. And this is also what Jacada does because they're very focused on offering authentic travel. And she said not two trips are ever the same. They personalize and tailor everything to the wishes of the client, but also, to what the local community wants.

Anne: And she also said that. Travelers don't really know what they're going to experience except for that they're going to spend an afternoon with a local, family. 

Rik: That's pretty interesting. Yeah. I feel like you said, responsible partners and developing, sustainable experiences are definitely the foundation of any sustainable travel business.

Rik: I do want to [00:08:00] remark that, the community-based experiences, these experiences can feel a bit awkward and uncomfortable. Yeah. So it's important to manage expectations and especially to the luxury traveler. 

Anne: They do have expectations on what they are, what they're going to experience?

Rik: Yeah. And you said no tour is ever the same, so you can't really prepare them for that, can you? 

Anne: I asked Natalie the exact same thing, and she said like it's a big responsibility of Jacada to manage the expectations and to really ensure that their travelers have an open mind and that they know it's not a set.

Anne: itinerary and that it's really, a day on local terms. So whatever the locals feel like doing, going to the market or cooking or doing something else, they will also feel the vibe. And I guess it's also depends on the traveler. Yeah. So what connection do they have and what kind of day will they have? And yeah,

Anne: you have to [00:09:00] prepare them for that. but making sure to have an open mind. 

Rik: it's also part of a travel business's job to feel if a client is interested in a community-based experience. 

Anne: yeah, absolutely. but I do think that Jacada has, like they have the luxury, accommodations in the positive Impact collection, but they now also launched their positive impact experiences, and these are mainly community-based experiences, so I'm assuming that.

Anne: Most travelers are interested, because they're selling them to all their travelers. Yeah. but I do think, there will be a difference in, the experiences that they offer. but I think overall on local terms and open mind is key. 

Rik: Really interesting how they're managing that. 

Anne: Yeah. No, absolutely.

Rik: So are there any other key areas that you think really matter? 

Anne: yeah, definitely. What I already mentioned is reducing your carbon footprint. it's really key and essential to reduce carbon footprint, [00:10:00] especially like in the travel industry with emissions of flights and transport and. We all know that measuring successfully is very challenging.

Anne: You need a lot of, skills and knowledge to do it successfully. Um, and in that, measuring is very important and data is everything when it comes to measuring, Jacada understands that really well. I actually have a little clip we can play, where Natalie explains more about how they have done it.

Rik: Okay, let's do that.

Natalie: We had a team come in and help us with that. So we worked with Eco Collective who have been absolutely amazing at measuring carbon emissions across the travel industry. Um, and they were able to analyze these huge dataset that helps us to understand how to move forward. And we're starting to collect carbon data from our properties so that we can look at that more closely.

Natalie: So yeah, there, there's many things that require data. So yes, there's a commercial aspect to, to my role, but I don't only work on, I, I can [00:11:00] also look outside of commercial interest and look at like our long-term goals of sustainability. And by being able to work outside of commercial interest, I can actually team up with our competitors.

Natalie: And when we're talking about huge data sets. Often that's shared between travel companies.

Rik: That's fascinating. And let's be honest, it can get quite expensive to get this kind of outside knowledge. Yeah. So it's a brilliant idea to team up, in this department. Don't you 

Anne: think I. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think hiring someone to do this for you and to support and guide you in the way of, calculating all these data sets, is a luxury.

Anne: So you need budget to do it, successfully. and I guess it can definitely be done with a smaller budget, but you have to be willing to invest time in making sure you completely understand, how to measure, how to compare data and also how to communicate it, successfully.[00:12:00] 

Rik: Yeah, I completely agree. you either need the budget or you need to find some way to make it work. What do you think are ways for, smaller companies to make this work? 

Anne: there is a lot of information out there and there are also a lot of tools available for companies to just simply calculate their own data sets.

Anne: but what Natalie also said is they partnered up with, hotel Resilient, which launched a platform where they, share all data of, properties. So they focus on sharing, carbon emission data and in terms of a ranking, they present, the carbon footprints of all these properties and having access to these, data sets.

Anne: allows you to just use that rather than calculating everything yourself. So that would save a lot of time and effort in doing that successfully. And it's really great to see there is so much more collaboration, in this field. 'cause definitely needed. it's hard, so yeah. Better do it together.

Rik: Yeah. Collaboration is definitely the way forward and [00:13:00] the faster way forward when it comes to collecting and reporting about data. 

Anne: Yeah.

Rik: I want to circle back to something that we've touched upon a little bit earlier, and that is that not every travel business will be targeting luxury travelers, right? Probably not. No. So do you think that targeting a specific audience should. define how sustainable you can be? 

Anne: I think working with larger budgets is easier because you have more choice in where to go, which conservation projects to, to fund, which charities to work with.

Anne: I. but it doesn't mean that traveling on a budget can't be sustainable. 'cause traveling with local transport, eating with locals, staying with locals, really engaging with them is a whole different, type of sustainability, but is still, sustainable and can create positive impact. 

Rik: Yeah, I'm not saying that the lower budget travelers don't care, but.

Rik: It is researched that sustainability is one of the first things to [00:14:00] go when the budget is tight. 

Anne: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, and this is also what Natalie said, is that, well, you have Gen Z and she referred to studies that they're talking a lot about creating positive impact, but.

Anne: Often sustainability doesn't always fit in their budget. And then sustainability is the first thing to go. And what she says is that they have travelers that have, the finances and they put their money where their mouth is. And with that, they have a really unique opportunity to travel, for good while having an amazing time.

Anne: And it's definitely an interesting target group to work with. 

Rik: yeah, I feel like we might need to address that. Communicating to your target audience really depends on who you are targeting. for example, if you're targeting backpackers, you might want to focus on, shopping locally or eating locally.

Rik: While when you're targeting luxury travelers, they [00:15:00] might. Be more interested in exclusivity or talking about authenticity. 

Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's the difference between,staying at the locals place, which is off the beaten track, going very back to, basic versus staying in an eco luxury, lodge that has amazing conservation projects.

Anne: yeah, so there is definitely a difference in that, in how you communicate. 'cause in the end, you are selling the travel experience to your type of traveler and well, if they have different needs, that means communication is different. of course.

Rik: So we're coming up towards the end of the episode now, and one last thing I wanted to ask you is what struck you most from your interview with Natalie? 

Anne: I think what struck me most is how much they have invested both in time, as in Budget, in, collaboration. So collaboration with local partners with their positive impact collection with their competitors.

Anne: but also the internal team. They [00:16:00] have put this positive impact team together and they also ensure that the entire organization can. Almost talk as passionately about positive impact as Natalie can, 

Rik: the positive impact manager. 

Anne: Yes, exactly. So they really put a lot of time and effort in making sure that every employee understands and also breathes or lives the Jacada values.

Anne: And I think, yeah, that is, very important and very interesting to see. How much do they value that? I actually have another little clip that we can play where she explains more about this. 

Rik: Let's do that.

Natalie: Invest in internal education. That has been huge for Jacada. I think it's so important. I feel very confident that were you talking to anyone from Jacada today? That they'd be able to give you a pretty good understanding of, of some of these topics. And it's really amazing to know that our entire team is able to go out there in the world and, and really back out and, and live the Jacada [00:17:00] values.

Anne: Yeah, I think what she says, and this shows the importance of internal communication, which is what I think equally important to external communication and marketing. And I sometimes feel that companies don't always understand how important internal communication is, but if your customer service team or your product team, your sales team.

Anne: Doesn't fully understand what positive impact you're trying to create or how to do. So how can you then actually create positive impact throughout the entire organization? 

Rik: Yeah, definitely. Internal communication is something that's overlooked so often and it's so important that you are consistent, that all of your employees are consistent, and that's actually the basis of marketing.

Rik: And earning trust from your clients or potential clients, that is consistency.

Anne: I think also the good thing is that you don't need a high budget to achieve this. Like you can start with, a monthly brainstorm [00:18:00] meeting with employees to like, how can we create more positive impact or to share like, what are you working on? And, what can we, do to make more positive impact there?

Anne: Or really to create like this shared value culture and like a collaboration and a collaborative. Effort. and what Natalie said, this made a big difference for Jacada and basically any business can do this starting small. Definitely. 

Rik: Yeah, I think so too. It doesn't matter what your budget is, you can always start with internal training or just brainstorming and keeping it easy and keeping it small at first and really growing into it .

Anne: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I also think that the more. Opinions you have, like the more perspectives, the more positive impact you can create because it's, a shared value. So No, absolutely. 

Rik: For sure. So that's where we'd like to wrap up any final remarks to the question. Does sustainability come at a price?

Anne: yes and no. Yes, in terms of staying at luxurious eco [00:19:00] lodges, supporting conservation projects, working with charities. Yes, comes at a price, but also an amazing experience. But no, because traveling, locally, public transport, engaging with locals doesn't have to be, expensive, often isn't.

Anne: And it's definitely an amazing way of sustainable travel too. It's just on a different end of, the spectrum I would say. 

Rik: Budget isn't really a shortcut to sustainability. 

Anne: Definitely not. But 

Rik: it does help, doesn't it? 

Anne: It does help. And I think that's like what they said, like money can't buy happiness, but it definitely helps and I think that's what sustainability is as well.

Anne: Because for a lot of aspects, for a lot of projects, you simply need money to be able To achieve it successfully or to, contribute. 

Rik: Yeah. But there's a lot of creative ways to get it done with a smaller budget as well. 

Anne: Absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. It's just different. 

Anne: Okay. And with that, we would like to close all this episode, but we would love to hear from you, what [00:20:00] would you do differently, within your business if budget wasn't a constraint?

Anne: So we would love to hear about that. So next episode that we're launching will be the full interview I did with Natalie. so make sure to subscribe to this channel so you don't miss it. And also like, and share, this episode if you enjoyed it. Thank you for listening and we hope to see you soon. 

Rik: Bye.