Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
In “Sustainable today, successful tomorrow” Anne and Rik (Good Tourism Institute) explore real-world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
Redefining luxury with Jacada Travel ✨
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What if luxury wasn’t about excess, but about impact? ✨
In this episode of Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow, Anne sits down with Natalie, Head of Positive Impact at Jacada Travel, to explore how luxury travel is evolving.
They talk about shifting the definition of luxury: from consumption to connection. 🙌
Natalie shares how, with Jacada’s approach, meaningful sustainability doesn’t have to mean compromise.
It’s about offering authentic experiences, supporting local communities, and making conscious choices. 🌿
All while delivering unforgettable experiences.
If you’re curious how sustainability and luxury travel can go hand in hand, and how to communicate your impact with honesty, clarity, and confidence, this episode is for you. 🎧
Anne: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Sustainable Today, successful tomorrow, where we explore real world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Anne: Last week, we already shared some highlights from my interview with Natalie, head of Positive Impact at Jacada Travel, a UK based luxury tour operate them. Today, I'm very excited to bring you the entire interview. Natalie and I talked about how Jacada Travel is creating positive impact and how they're successfully communicating this in a way that appeals to their traveler.
Anne: I feel we had a great conversation and I hope you get as much out as we did. I hope you enjoy.
Anne: Sustainability is everywhere in travel marketing, but how do you communicate it with honesty, clarity, and appeal? We're talking with Natalie from Jacada Travel about getting the message right and standing out for the right reasons. So thank you [00:01:00] so much for being here. Natalie,
Anne: And, to kick things off, would you say Jacada Travelers are interested in sustainability?
Natalie: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Anne. so I, I guess typically like Jacada travelers, we work within the luxury sector. Our travelers tend to be a little bit older and this isn't a market that people typically associate with an interest in sustainability. But we have definitely seen, a huge increase in our travelers interest in sustainability, and I think that comes through.
Natalie: Lots of different reasons, but we're seeing that,backed up in data. So we've had, last year we had a 300% increase in travelers signing up to our dedicated positive Impact newsletter, which is obviously a massive increase. We also do a client, yeah, we do a client engagement survey, once a year where we ask,our clients specific questions around their interest in positive impact and their understanding of it. And we've definitely seen, that year by year they're, starting to understand more, they're taking more interest, they're getting more engaged. so [00:02:00] definitely I would say our clients are interested in sustainability and I think that in part comes through the way that we've been marketing it. So the brand messaging that we've been put putting forward, but we've also seen,in the way that we construct our trips is very personalized.
Natalie: And when we, organize multi-generational trips, we've seen that, that like Gen Z is more involved in asking perhaps like their grandparents when they're organizing a trip. hey, like what's the impact of this trip? what kind of impact, is the hotel having that we're staying at? and so we're getting more of those questions starting to come through.
Anne: it's really interesting to see like this quite a big difference in what you said, the older generation in Gen Z, but it is combining now 'cause they're traveling together. great. Very interesting to hear. and I really look forward diving into this a bit more, but before we go any deeper, can you quickly introduce Jacada Travel, to me?
Anne: what is it that you offer?
Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. So Jacada is a luxury tour operator. we offer bespoke tours to, 80 different destinations across the [00:03:00] world. and it's an incredibly personalized service where our clients would work with our travel designers who would put together, very individualized trips based on customer preferences.
Anne: Okay. And you talk about luxury, travel, like how do you combine luxury with, sustainability specifically?
Natalie: I think this is a really great question and actually, It's interesting because,I think that in general, a lot of people ask me like, oh, does luxury travel, can that be sustainable? Is that a thing? It seems like a bit of an oxymoron there. but actually, what we've seen I think in recent years is that there is like an action intention gap in sustainability.
Natalie: And although a lot of people are talking about wanting to be sustainable, sometimes the reality
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: the cost of sustainability is a little bit out of people's budgets, right? And so you've got the younger generations really wanting to have an impact, but they're not always putting their money where their mouth is. What we have in the luxury sector is the [00:04:00] ability to be sustainable. the financing
Anne: To spend money on it.
Natalie: money
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: That's not an issue for our clientele. but I also think that there's two different paradigms of what luxury is. And like the old paradigm is, extraction, consumption,flying everywhere, buying things. That's not the luxury that we're talking about here. And I think that's not how our clients define luxury either. The way that they define luxury is,exclusive access to nature or, authentic experiences, really feeling like they're in the moment. These things are very powerful and they can be done in a way that is incredibly sustainable. but also has the ability to,to be a force for good to fund conservation projects, to, work with charities, to work on, community empowerment.
Anne: would you say then that the older generation would,put their, money, where their mouth is like more than, for example, gen Z? 'cause they have the ability to do it. do they care more than Gen Z? Do you see the difference there?
Natalie: yeah,I think [00:05:00] there's definitely been studies to back up that Gen Z despite having the best intentions, is not following through with sustainability in the way that they're talking about. and I do think that, yeah, that having the money to be able to do so is a luxury. Having a,
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: have a positive
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: through your travels is a luxury as well.
Natalie: And, I think that though, it comes up quite high on people's list of what they want initially in Gen Z. It falls off the list very quickly when they're looking at the costs. and that's just not something that in the luxury sector that is an issue for us. We don't have so many, we don't have those very tight,budgets that, that, that might not allow for that
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: of having a positive impact.
Anne: Yeah,
Anne: and so yeah, our travelers definitely can afford to travel more sustainably and we're seeing an increase in their interest in doing so. I would say yeah.
Natalie: the two generations against each other. very difficult. They're such different markets and
Anne: Absolutely.
Natalie: like
Anne: Yeah,
Natalie: only deal with just the older market, but our [00:06:00] clientele do tend to lean more into, that generation.
Anne: I guess that's also a luxury for Jacada travel, to be able to work with these budgets and to make more positive impact there. And, you are head of positive impact, at Jacada Travel. Can you elaborate a bit on what is that you do?
Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. so I've been working at Jacada, for the last two and a half years. jacada a company that has definitely always been focused on the idea of travel being a force for good. And that's been something that's been in the ethos of Jacada right from the beginning. but I think that before I started there wasn't a dedicated department for positive impact.
Natalie: And when I joined Jacada, I was involved in the setup of the Department of Positive Impact. And my job is that I oversee, Supply chain ethics across the 80 different destinations that we work with. And that means working with a lot of different stakeholders. so I work with our, different partners.
Natalie: We have charity partners who bring expertise into [00:07:00] Jacada. we have educational partners who are able to facilitate trainings for our team, in areas of sustainability and positive impact. we also, work very closely with our parent company who do a number of, social and environmental initiatives on the ground, across the African destinations that they work within. I also work very closely with our DMCs as well.
Anne: And when did you say you started, working for Jacada Travel? Like how long has this been, part of their, focus specifically?
Natalie: it's been two and a half years and I can definitely say that this has been a very strong focus for them before the department was created. but one of the benefits of having a dedicated department is that rather than having, what was happening before in Jacada, where people were doing it on the sides of their job, now this
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: is full-time dedicated to this work, which just allows us to get a lot deeper into delivering data,doing a lot more analysis of what's actually happening and setting up, long-term processes that can help us to achieve, our [00:08:00] sustainability goals.
Anne: when you spend more time on something, you have more time to actually go in depth and to really get those results out than doing it on the side. and then you being head of positive impact, I'm assuming you have a lot of input in what's being communicated about sustainability.
Natalie: Yeah, definitely. so I think I found it really interesting at Jacada, our marketing team is incredibly interested in positive impact. that has always sort of been a theme that they've taken interest in. But I've seen that now,as we've been hiring, we've taken on recent intake of staff, the deeper that we get into our positive impact work, the more engaged our team are in positive impact.
Natalie: 'cause they're literally joining
Natalie: often because of the work that we've done in Positive Impact. So I've seen like the
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: really grow in terms of their interest around impact. so yes, definitely work very closely with the marketing team. And do you have a specific like process for aligning, sustainability efforts with the marketing team? because like it's your input, or at least from the positive [00:09:00] impact team, like how do you make sure that really aligns with what it is, what you want to share?
Natalie: So I think the process that we follow, in terms of alignment is that,marketing and positive impact we work in incredibly closely. in terms of bringing out a new positive impact initiative, there's a conversation that happens. There's planning that happens for the year ahead. we're aware of each of those projects. we're already aligning from the beginning and planning out the year.
Anne: There's also, education and training that is happening from onboarding point, but also Okay.
Natalie: the year on different aspects of positive impacts.
Natalie: So for example, our marketing team were recently, redoing our L-G-T-B-Q-I-A page. and we aligned that with a training that we had from an LGBTQ plus sensitivity training, partner that came in and gave the team extra information that was useful in rebuilding that page. and so yeah, there, there's almost like a, there's a kind of continual conversation that's happening between marketing and positive [00:10:00] impact. and that, that goes like two ways as well. I think there's like data coming to marketing from positive impact, but then there's also data coming from marketing back to positive impact. So like, they're kind of helping me out with some of the data that
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: on how our clients are, are
Anne: Yeah. How they look at it. Yeah,
Natalie: at it, how they're understanding our messaging. and then I'm
Anne: some of the data that can help to drive the positive impact initiatives as well. and
Anne: yeah. Yeah. So it's really a collaboration between the two teams and not really you just sharing what you want to be put out there, but really, that they have a say and input in what it is that's being communicated.
Anne: yeah, definitely. And I think also really taking that, that initiative as well. So it's not just that,that I'm telling them our values and then they have to Yeah.
Natalie: do something within those kind of limitations. It's that sometimes I might provide them with a framework and then they go and do something that sort of exceeds what I could have imagined.
Natalie: And I think a really nice example
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: our [00:11:00] content team. we, so Jacada had put together at the beginning of the year our positive impact principles. And this was, a collaboration actually that was done, by a volunteer group of positive impact reps, which was 16 people from different departments across the company who came together and created this set of principles. And one of these, principles, was a set of principles around animal welfare. And, when implementing those principles, the marketing team took those principles, went away, created brand guidelines, and came back with this idea that in our imagery, that we only show animals where there was an obvious distance between the photographer and the animal itself. And so it was like this,the principles were there, the marketing team took it to a visual level and thought about, how it would impact the client and how it could be perceived visually. And I think, yeah, for me that was so beautiful to watch,these sort of
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: that I've outlined, but taken on in a very creative way, [00:12:00] by the marketing team.
Anne: Yeah. And I think that's a really powerful skill to have, as a marketeer to, to really put content to life in a way that it appeals to the actual traveler and what you say, like the visualization.
Natalie: and how do you, also ensure that, for example, your trip designers and your customer service are, empowered to communicate the same values? is that the same training or do you have specific focus on what they communicate?
Natalie: Yeah, so it's the same training, or like a hundred percent of our team get that training on the principles. I think it's really important whether you're, in operations, whether you're in sales, whether you're in marketing,
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: that you need to understand why we have those principles in place.
Natalie: And sometimes those principles aren't, immediately obvious how everybody can do them in their job role. And so one of the things that we've been working on, or that I've been working on recently is like having those conversations with departments that might feel like, how do we, like, how do we get animal welfare into our roles?
Natalie: So for example, I had a conversation with our, people and [00:13:00] culture team. and if you are working on recruitment, how do you, you know, how do you bring animal
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: your role? Right?it's sort of speaking more broadly about okay, we, we understand that like these are some of the rules that Jacada has in terms of animal welfare.
Natalie: if you're involved in a fam, looking out for principles that are, or experiences that are not necessarily aligning with the principles and we created a system.
Natalie: so it's incredibly hard, when you work across 80 destinations to ensure that you are, that all your principles are being met, right? So you of course, like we have
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: animal welfare principles, but how do we make sure that every single destination is following through on those? and so what we've done is we've created this flag system and everybody in the company has access to the flag system. and so what happens is that when a staff member perceives that something might clash with our principals. They can flag it on our system, they can be reviewed by our product manager. They might discuss it with me, and then if there's a disagreement on how to move [00:14:00] ahead, we would then have a conversation about that with the senior leadership team and decide what's gonna be right for Jacada. and so that
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: been working really well for us and it's actually allowed us to remove over 40 experiences,
Anne: Oh really?
Natalie: So
Anne: Wow.
Natalie: been able to like, remove a
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: that, that we don't align with anymore. but it also
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: like everyone from every part of team to get involved and to be,
Natalie: um, picking up on anything
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: that they feel doesn't align.
Anne: No. Exactly. Yeah. And I also think like working for Jacada Travel, you can't be caught riding an elephant yourself somewhere. like if you are not really fully into what the company stands for. but that system sounds very interesting, like very transparent as well and making sure that it's always followed up,
Anne: can you give an example of something that was flagged that you removed?
Natalie: Yeah, I have a really nice example that I think you'll like from a marketing perspective. so somebody flagged the use of the word Lapland, and it turns out that Lapland is actually [00:15:00] considered a racial slur. and
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: this was flagged, it went to our review process because one of the concerns was, around, sorry, forgive me.
Natalie: I'm not a marketeer, but around the SEO, I guess of the word. and that people might be searching for it. And so how do we remove
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: But, without kind of, running into
Anne: Yeah. Make, yeah. You still want them to find it? Yeah, exactly.
Natalie: commerically viable, but we wanna remove this word. and so we had a discussion around that and everyone was in an agreement that we would like to start moving away from this word. and so that was a conversation that happened with the marketing team. The marketing team were very passionate that we feel that there's a really interesting story piece here as well, and that there's an education piece for the clients, and then we can slowly
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: start to move away, from the use of the word Lapland. Um, and I think that was a fascinating one. It, it's just like these,with our entire team of a hundred plus people looking at our website and making sure that we're really [00:16:00] abiding by our principles. It actually holds us all accountable. And,as
Anne: Yeah, absolutely.
Natalie: I can't have those eyes on everything.
Natalie: And so I, what I feel has been so important at Jacada is really aligning everybody on these principles, empowering them to understand that they are a part of being able to have a positive impact and giving them the tools that they
Anne: involved and that they feel that they can flag
Anne: yeah,
Natalie: with,and not be worried about that. and yeah,
Anne: yeah. Absolutely.
Natalie: very helpful in moving forward with positive impact for us.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And then in terms of the Lapland story, like how do you in communicate it to, the client or the customer that you're no longer using Lapland? Because before that you have to use the word, which then for your SEO, it might still be there, but how did you solve that
Natalie: Yeah, I think
Natalie: still like very much a work in progress. This is something that's been flagged recently for us and my understanding from the marketing team is that they're still working on like, how do we present this story? But one of the, Jacada's bringing out, a set of positive [00:17:00] impact experiences. And, within those experiences we have, chosen to take quite a strong focus on Indigenous owned tours,and look more at like community based tourism as a way to have a positive impact.
Natalie: And so within that, we've been looking at, traditionally underrepresented, communities, particularly indigenous communities. And like in the case of, Lapland, or Sami as, it should be called, the Sami people, the Sami community are, are the stewards of that land and representing them properly in tourism and allowing them to have their story, and have their narrative included within an itinerary within, that region allows naturally that story to come through. and I think that's one of the things that we've been looking at, like how do we ensure that,that these underrepresented communities are properly,
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: represented in travel. And compensated
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: well. not just that you're going in with your tour guide to, to, to understand them from the [00:18:00] outside, but that they are the decision makers.
Natalie: They are creating experiences, they are benefiting from these tour.
Anne: Absolutely. Yeah. So we also talk a lot about community-based tourism within the Good Tourism Institute, and we also call it like the win-win win situation. So you have the win for the locals because they're really empowered in what they want to share, how they want to share it. You have the amazing win for the traveler to be able to experience such a travel experience, but then also, of course, the win for you as a travel business.
Anne: to be able to put this together and to facilitate these, exchanges. so really good to see how you put that into practice.
Natalie: Thank you. Yeah, I completely agree on that. definitely a win-win, win. And also,comes up in lots of different areas. Like I often feel like when I'm navigating, certain issues within sustainability, for example, child safeguarding,and people often ask oh, but if we're not visiting schools, how can we help these kids?
Natalie: And it's oh, you can focus on community-based tourism and you can like, bring
Anne: [00:19:00] Yeah.
Natalie: parents who can look after them just fine.
Anne: yeah,
Natalie: actually like I find myself coming back to community based tourism as the answer for a lot of issues that come up in sustainability.
Anne: yeah. No, absolutely. so you have your, positive impact principles and now your experiences, but you also have a collection. Can you tell me a little bit more about, yeah, how you put that out there?
Natalie: Yeah, absolutely. So the Postpositive Impact Collection, encompasses, it was initially just properties and now the experiences are gonna be added into that collection. So it's a kind of, a full thing with, positive impact
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: As well, which was very exciting. The Positive Impact Collection was something, it was one of the first projects that I started working on with Jacada
Natalie: and it, it was a sort of a huge project where we took, 500 of our bestselling properties.
Natalie: We sent them out a very detailed survey, that was based on the Global Sustainable Travel Council criteria, but also had very specific questions around. Regenerative tourism. So we didn't [00:20:00] wanna just look at sustainability. We wanted to understand sustainability and how these properties were doing it, and we wanted a certain level of sustainability, but we wanted to then take that forward and also look at properties that were not only mitigating their impact, but also having a very positive impact.
Natalie: and so that's the idea behind the positive impact collection that these properties and these experiences are not just sustainable, they are transformative to the destinations. And so within that, after surveying, we got 200 responses back from our first survey. we picked out of that, I think it was initially around 60 or 70 properties that went into the collection. The collections now expanded. I think it's at 120 properties. but these were properties that were excelling in every way. So they were sustainable as an absolute minimum standard. but then they were also doing these incredible projects where they were supporting, huge, community based projects.
Natalie: They [00:21:00] were, supporting education, health. They were,involved in large scale conservation projects. They were protecting wildlife, protecting humans from wildlife. Lots of different aspects there. Yeah.
Anne: Yeah. that's great. And then you also said that there was an increase in interest from travelers in the, positive impact, newsletter. But then do you also see that back in your, booking data that these, positive impact collection accommodations, for example, are seeing an increase in, yeah, in bookings.
Natalie: Yeah, definitely. I think, was a bit of a slow burn for us, I think, and initially we weren't seeing that step up, but I think as our team have had more training as our newsletter, interest has increased, as we've figured out how to appropriately label these properties and ensure that, that our clients understand. we've definitely seen clients take more of an interest. I think there was, one of the things we realized, and perhaps one of the [00:22:00] early mistakes that we made was,we'd picked out these points of impact about each property. We've highlighted like the features of what the property does.
Natalie: So this property is, supporting a hundred children with scholarships, to university, let's say. and that's great, but also
Natalie: the
Anne: But what's in it for the traveler?
Natalie: in it for the clients. And so I think we've started to do much more training with the team, both across the marketing team and also with our sales team, to help them understand like, what are the co-benefits of this?
Natalie: What are the, how does the client benefit from this? And a few of that, I guess would be like, rather than just saying this property is protecting X-hectares of land, of mangroves, let's say. really highlighting that, like that means the client is gonna have untouched access to nature. You know that
Anne: Yeah,
Natalie: be, there's not gonna be like another five hotels developing in the
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: but it's gonna be [00:23:00] surrounded by beautiful, lush nature, or it's going to be quieter, or they'll wake up to the sound of Birdsong or, okay. So the, maybe the property has an organic farm, organic that means that the client has access to healthy, delicious food that's fresh, that's, farm to table, that's gonna be, Yeah.
Natalie: delicious produce that's not just coming from, from afar. and so yeah,
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: worked more on those things and I think through those trainings, through that increase in our understanding of, where the client sits in their understanding of what sustainability looks like and the benefits to them, we, we've been able to increase client interest in, properties that have a positive impact.
Anne: Yeah, it's very interesting that you said like it's been a journey to tweak and so you find the right messaging and communication on how to actually sell sustainability in a way that appeals to your travelers. 'cause also, like we've discussed that before, like Gen Z travelers will be responding a whole lot different to certain messaging than, for example, the older, travel group.[00:24:00]
Anne: And this is exactly what our main mantra is within the Good Tourism Institute when we talk about sustainable travel is. You don't sell sustainability, you sell what's in it for the traveler, that it is sustainable. So it's all always turning it around. it so very good to see that you already got that, like with training and that how training is so important in tweaking this message and that, that made a lot of difference in, and what the increase in interest now.
Natalie: Thanks, Anne. I did attend your, your session on sustainability and marketing. I think it's Sweden last year at the GSTC conference. It was very helpful
Anne: Great. Well good. That worked Perfect. yeah. And then also, before this podcast, I also, reviewed your, website, a little bit. And like your main motto I think is like, enjoy authentic responsible travel planned by experts. And I was just wondering what does authentic travel, mean to Jacada?
Natalie: Yeah, [00:25:00] absolutely.authentic travel is like very hard to define, But I feel like we've talked a little bit about like community-based tourism and these yeah, I, I guess these moments that can't be recreated. There's, I think there's a beauty in travel that feels a little bit non-linear, where it's focused on the human story and there's there's room for each experience to be. Unique, Jacada, the way that our trips work,it's very personalized. So there's no two trips that are ever the same. And in that sense, there's a real kind of customer journey that's happening where we're taking all of the customer's interests and sometimes creating new experiences for that customer. I think one of the things that we've seen in terms of, for example, our positive impact experiences, is we're allowing this conversation to happen between our clients and people who would not normally be a part of tourism. And when you do experiences like that, when you take experiences that are, that have a more community focus, [00:26:00] There's definitely a level of authenticity that, can't be recreated, where it's just like you're not exactly sure what that experience is gonna look like, because it really depends on how that community feels on the day, who
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: there's a really nice experience in, Gal Oya here in Sri Lanka that's run by the Gal Oya Lodge and they've worked very closely with, the indigenous community in that particular area of East Sri Lanka, the Vedas. there
Anne: Okay.
Natalie: the experience is roughly that two Veda chiefs will come and pick you up from the hotel and they will, take you through the forest and perhaps take you back to their village if they decide that's what they wanna do.
Anne: If they feel like it.
Natalie: Feel like it, but there's also the opportunity, like there's also the chance that they just won't come.
Natalie: like sometimes they don't, they might not come or maybe one of them comes, or like they, or they decide that they wanna go to a different part. these are not people who have,traditionally done tourism. And so there, there's a level of authenticity in that it's completely curated by [00:27:00] these people.
Natalie: And so it, the conversation feels very natural. It's not that they're just reciting a script. It's not that they're running a tour. you go on these like food tours and it's like someone's reciting a script that's been written by someone else. No, it's that you are, you're going, you're having a very real conversation. that things flow in a way that feels much more authentic and it gets you
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: it gets you a real understanding, a real sort of, insight into a part of the culture that you wouldn't normally have a chance to access. And I think that's. that's.
Anne: very special and just can't be recreated in a kind of artificially constructed tour.
Anne: yeah. No, absolutely. Very powerful as well. But how do you, for example, you said like sometimes they might not show up. How do you keep like your customer satisfaction or how do you manage their expectations? 'cause with the luxury sustainability comes a price, they are expecting a certain experience to take place.
Anne: Like how do you deal with that?
Natalie: I think it's just about setting [00:28:00] expectations. in that particular example, not often completely canceled, but these experiences do come with a very real human element. And so I think a, ensuring that the traveler is properly briefed that this isn't a tour being run by a tour guide.
Natalie: This is somebody from the community who, you know, Who is on their own timescale, who exists outside of the tourism world, who's not gonna be worried about being 10 minutes late.
Natalie: In ensuring that the traveler understands what to expect, and that they're happy with that.
Natalie: I guess because of the way that Jacada works, because of the time that's taken with the travelers in understanding their requirements, their needs, their personality, we usually get it right.
Anne: And I think that's also what you said, like the power of actual community-based tourism where it's on their terms and they decide how the day is going to look like. I think that's the purest word of authenticity in there. but wouldn't you agree that, for example, the word [00:29:00] authenticity is overused in marketing right now.
Anne: That's the near sustainability buzzword, that everything is now authentic. How do you still stand out, by offering experiences like this that are actually, authentic, if we can still use that word.
Natalie: there's a lot of,sort of generic use of certain buzzwords within the sustainability world. And I think the way that Jacada has cut through that is that we really focus on measurable impact. Tangible results, human stories. we're talking about sustainability, of course, if we just use surface level language, it can be very generic when it's used across multiple countries, right?
Natalie: But if we use, if we start to talk about places and we think about placed based languages and the stories like that really. are intrinsic to that particular region that you would only find in that region. we can speak a lot more deeply about impact. It doesn't need to be like, oh, this is, [00:30:00] eco-friendly. we can talk about who's being benefited. we can talk
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: the communities, the richness of the culture in those communities, the history of those communities, the history of the forest, the wildlife that's in it. Like these things, move away from generic descriptions and go much deeper into place based descriptions based on, very tangible impact.
Anne: Yeah. So it's all about the context and the storytelling and the feeling that you Yeah. Connect to that, buzzword. That's, yeah, very true. And, are there aspects of. Like positive impact or in sustainability that you would deliberately avoid when, communicating your story?
Anne: are there aspects you want to stay away from to avoid greenwashing maybe?
Natalie: I think that when it comes to avoiding um, I,I think that really has to start with listening. the opposite of greenwashing is just like going back to the drawing board and actually like [00:31:00] listening to what host communities, host destinations, our DMCs, our partners have to say. and I think that Jacada, I. Our process, we're in a continual process of listening. we're, for example, our animal welfare principles. we worked very closely with an animal welfare nonprofit. We really listened to what they had to say. We took on a lot of their advice and that helped us to create our principles.
Natalie: We took a lot of advice from our DMCs. when I travel, I talk with the guides, I talk with, people in the community. I try to get a wide understanding of how
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: all of these different communities before making decisions on their behalf. And I think that, greenwashing can tend to be that. And yeah, listening I guess is the sort of first thing. And then I think also just, not to make vague claims. And I think, again, this comes back to the idea of being authentic, right? what does that mean?
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: message behind it? And I think the way to not make vague claims by focusing on collecting data. and this is something that we've [00:32:00] been really pushing at Jacada. So that started with our positive impact collection and the data that we were able to collect, from the properties. We ended up using that to create a white paper where we actually did like a full analysis of okay, so like now we have this chunk of data, let's analyze it.
Natalie: let's like geek out on this, right? what can we find? What trends can we pull? Where can we see like room for improvement for our partners? And so we started to get a better understanding of okay, this is the landscape we're working in and these are some of the things that don't work. And. are some of the things that are cool that certain people are talking about and, okay, this country is doing this really well, but these countries are really struggling and maybe there's some dots to
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: so that data is absolutely essential to cutting through any vague claims. and I think that, like what I do see is that, a lot of companies still don't know how to work with data. And I think, again, when we talk about Jacada and, people trying to do, a positive impact job on the side of their work, the reason why Jacada saw a needto have a [00:33:00] department is understanding that,that looking at data is not typically something that the tourism industry has expertise in. And I don't think there's many people
Anne: True.
Natalie: in travel that know how to analyze data, right? these aren't two things that go together. And so actually it really
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: to have a dedicated person or team of, people who can, who know how to take this data and really do something with it.
Natalie: And so I think that is crucial for travel companies.
Anne: can you give an example of how,and which data really supported your message, for example, and what was the impact of your communication?
Natalie: Yeah. In terms of the message, I think understanding the properties, so for example, you have an idea in mind of which are sustainable, right? And so there,
Anne: Yeah. I.
Natalie: of properties that talk a lot if they talk a big game about sustainability. And so when I spoke with our team. Our team had a lot of ideas on okay, I think this property is sustainable. This property is always talking on LinkedIn [00:34:00] about being sustainable. This property claims to be sustainable, et cetera, et cetera. and actually when we got the data, there were certain hotels that, you know, that, that talk a big talk, but didn't walk the big walk.
Natalie: And that was really shocking to see that wow, okay, like this, this isn't what it seems to be, but everybody was talking about those hotels being sustainable. And so it's like actually like you need to do your own research. You need to understand, and until you have facts and figures that can be properly backed up there, there's no claim to be made about sustainability.
Natalie: You really need to have that data to, to build. And then I think,
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: another place where data is crucial is in carbon emissions. And that's a great one for
Anne: Absolutely. Yeah.
Natalie: measurement system that,that really requires a deep understanding of data. And in fact, for that, we outsourced that.
Natalie: We, we had a team come in and help us with that. So we worked with E-Collective, who have been absolutely amazing at,
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: carbon emissions across the travel [00:35:00] industry. and they were able to analyze these huge data sets, that, that helped us to understand how to move forward. And we're starting to collect, carbon data from our properties so that we can look at that more closely. so yeah, there, there's many things that require data. Yeah, and I guess this is also where the green claims directive is coming in, is that you can't make claims in the future, when you're not actually, able to support it with data. So what you said, like you could have a big, campaign or promotion about your sustainability practices and everyone can believe that you're doing it, but you have to actually prove it, before you can be considered sustainable.
Anne: So I think it's a really good thing that data is becoming so much more important in this conversation. I think especially with sustainable tourism, we're kind of late to the party, as in there's data has been so important for industries worldwide, but only in tourism. It's emerging now. yes.
Anne: I'm very happy with that change.
Natalie: Yeah. I think again,this sort of feel like the last few years feels like the first couple of [00:36:00] years that travel companies have had dedicated sustainability people and starting to see a rise in sustainability departments. and having these people on that just means that we can work in a way that is different to how the travel industry normally works.
Natalie: So yes, there's a commercial aspect to, to my role, but I don't, I. Only work on a, I can also look outside of commercial interest and look at like our long-term goals of sustainability. And by being able to work outside of commercial interest, I can actually team up with our competitors. And when we're talking about huge data sets, often that's shared between travel companies. And so
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: what Jacada's been doing recently is we have been opening up conversations with our competitors about where we can work together to get this data. we recently, I won't drop names because I'm not sure that they're, ready to be mentioned.
Natalie: But we've, we've been
Anne: No worries.
Natalie: of our big competitors, other tour operators in the [00:37:00] uk and we've been working with a platform
Anne: Great.
Natalie: Hotel Resilience, which, collects it, it allows you to send out a self-assessment survey to properties. there were three DMCs that were working on this project, in Southeast Asia, and they were three competitors, that had teamed up to, to basically get these surveys out to all the hotels that they were working with because they realized that working together would allow them to collect a much wider spread of data.
Anne: Yeah. Yeah. And to be more transparent in what they're sharing. Yeah, absolutely. I.
Natalie: so Jacada were the first tour operator to, to join, hotel Resilient. And then we brought on, some of our competitors as well as our DMCs. and so we're trying to expand that and basically for us, like the more people that are using Hotel Resilient as a platform, the more data we can get on different hotels, and the easier it is just to have all of that data in one place. and so Hotel Resilient have again, aligned themselves with global Sustainable Travel Council, criteria, which is I think definitely the way to go in the future, especially with the [00:38:00] green claims directive coming up. and it's that collaboration I think is also super important. It allows us to share the work. and yeah, I think when combating greenwashing collaborating, thinking outside of the box of commerciality is like absolutely the way to go.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And what you said, like before that the collaboration, like both with your competitors, but also with your, your partners, your collections, and, within your team, like you have collaborative, aspects everywhere to make sure that everyone's on the same page and that like you flag aspects that are not working, you can really learn from each other.
Anne: yeah. So it's really great to see to what extent you have implemented, this collaborative aspect. Very impressive.
Natalie: you. appreciate that.
Anne: Nice. And, what do you think your biggest challenges are in communicating sustainability? and like also combined with that, like what's your biggest challenge [00:39:00] as head of impact, positive impact?
Natalie: I guess
Anne: of sustainability, one of the biggest challenges perhaps I. there's co there's a few challenges. I think the complexity of it is,there, there's so many elements to sustainability, right? It's one word that encompasses thousands different kind of topics. Yeah. and to help understand the depth of that subject is, it can be sometimes like, oh wow. Like, where do we focus? And sometimes, we focus so much in one area and then we realize that we're, we've completely missed this other area.
Natalie: so you say that like too many topics, that you could dive into, like on how to communicate your positive impact, but do you also feel there are topics that travelers are really not interested in, that you might feel are important?
Natalie: Hmm. question. I think. Topics that travelers aren't interested in is usually because they don't know anything about [00:40:00] it. and so really that's a, that's an exciting opportunity for our marketing team to figure out how we can make something more exciting, more relatable, bring it back to the client and make them understand like why that might be important for them. I think that one of the things, for example, that has traditionally been a struggle has been like, how do we engage clients in interest in talking about carbon emissions? It's not a super exciting topic, but I think that when we
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: Slow travel. I think that when we talk about train journeys and taking your time and taking that opportunity to see the entire journey as,as an experience rather than just the destination that's really engaging to the customers.
Natalie: And so I think it's more,
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: it's less about oh, is our client disinterested in carbon? Or know that we could just reach a dead end there and decide never to talk to them about carbon emissions
Anne: again
Natalie: Or we can reframe it and think okay, this is a great opportunity [00:41:00] for us to engage them.
Anne: and also I think changing the story again what's in it for the traveler. So they'll reduce their emissions, but they'll have fun doing it and not just because it's the right thing to do.
Natalie: exactly. A hundred percent. are a few members of our team have just recently completed the carbon literacy training with E-Collective.
Anne: Perfect.
Natalie: that also focused very much on what are the co-benefits? how do you bring forward like some of these benefits to clients, and yourself, to yourself of like why you're doing something right. but yeah,
Anne: Yeah,
Natalie: this like big interest. we've seen a peak in, our clients getting interested about train travel and I think there's, there's correlation between our busy lives and the desire to slow down. And I think, if.
Anne: absolutely.
Natalie: bombarded with noise and speed and intensity in our day-to-day lives.
Natalie: And so actually, like lower carbon journeys,by electric vehicle or, by train or by walking for example, are these great [00:42:00] opportunities to take things a little bit slower, to be out in nature and to reconnect to your sense of self. and the fact that they're low carbon is, is a, an added bonus.
Anne: Yeah. No, absolutely. and that's also like aligning your communication to what you feel your traveler needs and what they will respond to. And I think that's the key in communicating sustainability here,
Natalie: to wrap up, what advice would you give other travel businesses trying to talk about sustainability more meaningfully?
Natalie: Yeah, so I think just like being aware, coming back into this idea of listening, I think just being aware that, really compelling narratives, come from centering local voices,that's really important. not making those fake claims that we discussed, like eco-friendly or whatever.
Natalie: being much more specific with the things that you're claiming, and looking at the story behind that claim rather than just the claim itself and backing that up with, measurable impact and statistics.
Anne: Yeah.
Natalie: [00:43:00] Invest in internal education. That has been huge for Jacada. I think it's so important.
Natalie: I feel very confident that were you talking to anyone from Jacada today? That they'd be able to give you a pretty good understanding of,of some of these topics. and it's really amazing to know that, our entire team is able to go out there in the world and, and really back
Anne: Yeah,
Natalie: and live the Jacada values.
Anne: absolutely.
Natalie: I guess the final thing would be sharing what you've learned. so really utilizing collaboration to, to share that across the industry. I think there, there doesn't need to be gatekeeping when it comes to sustainability that really holds us back. and through
Anne: sharing
Anne: Yep.
Natalie: we've moved through problems much more quickly. we bring each other up as an industry and actually like working together helps us all to come up and, and it supports our planet and our communities as well. So it helps us to achieve those sustainability goals that we all have. and so really there, yeah, I think there needs to just be a lot more collaboration in terms of [00:44:00] sustainability.
Anne: Yeah. Yeah, no, a hundred percent agree. And I think what you said, everyone has the same goal in terms of doing better for people, planet profit. yeah. So why not do it together?
Natalie: Absolutely.
Anne: So thank you so much for joining us, on the podcast. It was so interesting to hear what Jacada is doing, how you've gone from, starting a positive impact, team to where you are at the moment, a really powerful story, communicating sustainability in a way that really resonates with your travelers.
Anne: and like the collaboration you've been into, the support of data. very promising and I really look forward to, learning more what you're up to in the future. but for now, thank you so much for joining and, talk to you soon.
Natalie: Thank you so much for having me, Ann. It's been such a pleasure.
Anne: I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. There is so much we can learn from companies like Jakarta Travel, and it's interesting to see how luxury and sustainability can go hand in hand.
Anne: If you're enjoying the podcast, don't forget to like and share this episode. [00:45:00] And also don't forget to subscribe to our channel to not miss any future episodes. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.