Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
In “Sustainable today, successful tomorrow” Anne and Rik (Good Tourism Institute) explore real-world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
Community-Based Tourism the Kara-Tunga way 🤝
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How do you build a tourism business that grows with the community and creates real value for everyone involved?
That’s Community-Based Tourism the Kara-Tunga way! 🤝
In this episode of Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow, Anne sits down with Theo Vos, founder of Kara-Tunga, a tour operator in Northern Uganda that’s leading the way in community-based travel.
They talk about building a sustainable business model, earning local trust, and redefining authenticity through collaboration. 💬
Theo shares how Kara-Tunga has developed experiences rooted in culture, ownership, and pride, while successfully reaching a broad audience. 🌿
From managing expectations to marketing what truly matters, this conversation is packed with practical insights for anyone looking to make community-based tourism meaningful and successful.
If you're exploring how to grow community-based tourism with care, purpose, and impact, this episode is for you. 🎧
Anne: [00:00:00] Welcome back with Sustainable. Today's Successful Tomorrow, where we'd explore real world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Anne: In our last episode, we shared a few highlights from my interview with Theo co-founder of Kara-Tunge who offer adventure and cultural experiences in Northern Uganda.
Anne: Today I'm excited to bring in the entire interview. Theo and I talked about the development and challenges of community-based tourism and how to successfully sell to mainstream travelers.
Anne: I enjoyed the conversation and I hope you like it as much as we did. I hope you enjoy.
Anne: Community-based tourism often sounds better on paper than in practice, but what does it take to create tourism that truly benefits local communities without losing appeal for today's traveler? We're talking with Theo from Kara-Tunga about finding this balance successfully. So [00:01:00] thank you so much for taking the time to join me, Theo.
Anne: we go way back and therefore I'm very excited to have you on our podcast.
Theo: Thank you and also very nice to be here and thank you for the invitation. I'm looking forward to share some insights
Anne: so quick question before we get started. selling community-based tourism successfully is quite challenging, and we see many travel businesses struggle with it. So why do you think that is? Why are they struggling?
Theo: It's a good question actually, and thank you for asking this. I think the most important reason, that many CBT, companies are struggling is I think they don't see it as a business. I think that's also when we started Kara-Tunga, we really emphasized let's,look at it as a business. Let's look at, a business model, and not just like a charity.
Theo: I think that's also what I see in other, initiatives. They started because it's a good idea. They have a nice community, they have a nice experience, but then they don't think about, am I accessible, by tourists? am I actually on tourism socket or maybe I'm. Five hours away,is it gonna be profitable?
Theo: do we [00:02:00] think about the costing of the activities? do we think about the operational challenges also coming in? do we have a bit of capital also to invest in marketing? are we able to reach out to tour operators? I think a few weeks ago we had a meeting with some CBT actors and they said ah, I don't know why nobody's coming.
Theo: I'm like, did you think about the business model? Did you think about, marketing yourself. Yeah, I thought we just gonna be at some events and people would come. but there also should be something in for the tourist, but as well, so there should be something in for travel agents and tour operators. And especially actually in this early stage of kick starting, CBT experience where you need to really highly invest in in marketing yourself, refining your products, sensitizing the communities, it sounds like fun and low cost, but at the end of the day, somebody needs to invest the time in it.
Anne: And that sometimes I think, underestimated. No. Absolutely. that's very interesting and a lot more on that later. but can you tell me a bit more about Kara-Tunga? How and why did you get [00:03:00] started? And obviously with a good business model. That's what I'm hearing. I.
Theo: Yeah. the reason we started, we are operating in the northeastern part of Uganda. this part has been, insecure for almost 40, 50 years,because of a civil unrest here. I. For me, I grew up actually in Netherlands. That's also how I know Anne. but we started actually this organization because when, after the insecurity was over, I started traveling finally in my own region. I just was amazed about the beauty of the region, also how little was known by its own inhabitants, and especially also the negative image it had,while I was traveling, many people got interested also and was surprised that we had mountains.
Theo: We had, diverse communities and a really authentic and rich culture. that people asked us questions if they could join our trips. Well, I was discovering my roots and discovering the place where I was from. people also wanted to join us on this kind of adventure. and that's actually how we accidentally started, CBT. but when we started, luckily I had a business background. I also knew if [00:04:00] I do it, I need to do it right. and we started video with, what kind of product can we offer? We started having the first, hiking activities. and clients of course asking feedback. How could we improve? but it was not easy.
Theo: I don't say because I had a business background. It was easy to start. it was really a lot of, time, a lot of investment in marketing ourselves. a lot of, struggles to get the first cash in, to reinvest again in the business. but we are in here for the long, game. that's why.
Theo: Yeah, I think it took us maybe four, five years to really make a profit actually.
Anne: yeah, you usually hear that, that you just have this starting, phase where you really have to put in the time and effort, before you can get the results. And I can imagine it, especially being in such a remote location, and then in Uganda, yeah, that you definitely need this time to, to get started.
Anne: were you involved with community-based tourism before? Like what core principles,did you use or did guide your approach, to develop community-based tourism?
Theo: No, good question. Actually, I've never been [00:05:00] involved in community-based tourism before in my life. I've done, travels in Europe, but I was really of a totally different era, I'll not, to not even start about it, not comparable, but I think what really guided me and our team, was because we are.
Theo: Part of the community. We are natives, of the soil. so we always had this, accountability on daily basis, that we did the right thing. I think that really guided us a lot. So our principles, our values were really, making sure our parents, our grandmothers, our uncles and nieces were proud of us, what we did. but at the same time, also knowing that tourism was not something done before in this region. We also had the responsibility to share and educate, the community what tourism really is, what is the good things about it, but also what can be the challenges coming with, tourism. So I think it was a two-way traffic.
Theo: That's, one side. We are natives and that's why you have a Emotional connection to do the good thing. at the same time also,if one does not know what tourism is, of course you will invite any [00:06:00] opportunity that brings in money, especially in a really poor area. so it was our responsibility as a tour operator to make sure, that you share the goods and the bads.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And then where did you get your, like knowledge from, like about how tourism, how it should work? did you have any like external expertise, that you used or come in?
Theo: think we really learned it by doing, I wish
Anne: Okay.
Theo: for CBT. I don't even know if it exists. But, no. I think we were guided really by listening to the community. I think,in the beginning, very honest. We also, went quite fast. and we only realized after a while that, hey, I think we need to slow down and talk more with the community. how they find that we is going to the community. What is for them, the challenges, which times of the day are important for them so they can continue the daily life. so we really learned by doing, and I think the most important thing we do, we have a monthly evaluation with all the community we work with at the moment. And we talk about also, yeah. How do they perceive [00:07:00] tourism? how, do they utilize the income they get from it? does it disturb or compliment the daily life? but this only came actually after a while. And I think also during COVID, and that drop in tourism, it really helped the community to, to also, I think, wake up and say, this is not the only way we could survive.
Theo: We need to really balance tourism and our lives without tourism. and that also really changed our entire perspective. I think, again, as an organization.
Anne: Yeah. I think that makes sense. I think COVID was a wake a call for a lot of, tourism businesses in finding ways to not be so dependent on tourism, but on the other hand, doing better. so that you can, survive on that. okay. And as I said, we go way back and I actually experienced your, travel experiences firsthand.
Anne: I went into the bush to visit local shepherds on the back of a bodaboda. and it's actually still one of my favorite travel experiences ever. I also always used it as an example when someone asked me about, local experiences [00:08:00] and I was just wondering what do you think makes you stand out from other travel businesses doing the same thing?
Anne: I.
Theo: Yeah. Nice. And for sure, I'm really happy. I think you're one of our first, guest actually, so really in the early days. And, yeah. Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity. I think for what makes us stand out, I think it's really because we have, a team that's, many of them have been shepherds before. many of them are still connected to the village or even living in the village still. and for them, they really want to bridge, I think between the. The traditional life as well as,progressing. I think that's also what makes the tourism so beautiful especially when guides are so much involved. and that also gives, I think all the guests we have a really authentic experience because they are together with a person,a woman or a male. We have the both guides, that are proud of where they're from. They still want to connect with the future. and they're really happy to be a bridge between their local community and themselves. and I think that's pureness, I think makes us really stand out. I think from anything [00:09:00] else, in addition to also our sense for adventure, I think. Myself also, I don't like to just sit somewhere and wait until something to happen. But we are, we really are all about participating. We are all about,experiencing the landscape and the community. and I think we just have a group coming back from the village actually now. and you saw them in the evening. They were the cattle camp. They were milking the cows. They were singing in the evening. I think, from those days it's, it still happens and the community is really proud of their culture.
Theo: And they really have told us also that because of tourism, we have gained more pride, in who we are, where we from, because especially during the war, they were not really appreciated. They were really marginalized,within the country. But now because people from America are traveling all the way to sit with them,and listened to the stories and the songs around the, campfire. they have now really, yeah, regained their pride in who they are, where they're from, and that's why they're so excited always to meet, travelers as well. yeah, I think just the pureness, the authenticity, the real sense of [00:10:00] pride they can feel,and of course our part of adventure.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And then would you say that your travel experiences or maybe the entire business is really built on local ownership, or at least in collaboration, that you're really doing it together?
Theo: Yeah, no, for sure. all guides we work with, these were guides that we trained from night periods to where they're now I. actually at the moment, just, finalizing training 20 indigenous guides and to really license them, on national level.
Theo: So they'll be recognized, national guides, in the community as well. we talk to them on monthly basis. They're the ones giving us those ideas. We listen to the ideas and see how we can incorporate them. We sign MOUs, so meaning also they hold us accountable. So it's not only like us bringing tourist and we have, we are allowed to say everything.
Theo: no, they. As well as, we have our rights and we hold ourselves accountable for it. yeah, so I think it's really a collaboration is not that the tour operator is the one, setting the terms, but really from both sides we listen to each other and respect each other. I.
Anne: And then [00:11:00] for the MOU, do you sign it as. Kara-Tunga, or do you let Travelers sign an MOU?
Theo: good one. Actually, we have two ways. We have,
Anne: Okay. Yeah.
Theo: question. We have, between the community groups, the guides and us, we have an MOU. so how much do they get paid? when do they receive, what are the values? Also, we hold ourselves accountable for, our code of conduct.
Theo: and that's something we review from both sides. but as well, travelers. A couple of years ago, we, actually developed a tourism pledge,with the help of a Belgium organization, that's, brought better, together 17 community group leaders representing, I think 700 people in total. All in tourism. and they wrote actually how they see the future in tourism themselves. So not from us as organizations, but from the, CBT communities actually. and that's something every traveler signs before they actually even before they go to the community. So they're really aware where the community stands for, what's important for them, and how can they be part of their, journey.
Anne: that sounds really good. And that's also very much [00:12:00] focused on managing expectations, I think, to really make sure that they have the best experience I think this is really connected to like community-based tourism can sometimes be, I. Perceived as too niche or maybe too limited an appeal.
Anne: you sometimes hear travelers say they're afraid to go local or that it's really only for the hardcore basic traveler, because they think it might be uncomfortable or awkward. do you receive such concerns or misconceptions about travelers interested in traveling with you?
Theo: I think Kara-Tunga in beginning was actually that's, organization. So we had really backpackers, people would travel in the local taxis and wanted to have the most rural experience they could get. and slowly what we noticed, that actually for us it be, it became less,relevant because we are looking at having a bit more, impact, involving more communities. so we actually let go of that really rural audience, the backpackers. and that's actually where one of our guides actually took on. And that's really nice to see the market developing [00:13:00] itself, because we noticed that actually also the mid-range tourist who, want a CBT experience, just have different needs. They want a bit more comfort, they want a bit more organization, they want an invoice. The tour operators want also, some professionalism and an email address to be answered. So we actually jumped up a little bit, to a different target audience to actually offer the CBT experience for people who are a bit less, raw or backpacking style. because we saw that the business model for the backpackers was not as interesting for our growth. and that our guide we had worked at in the beginning for them was a perfect, way to, to actually take it over. so you can see like we went from zero tourism to. backpackers not handled by the guides individually, but also a bit more mid-range. clients who now want a bit more professionalism, a bit more, high standard. I think that's where we came in as Kara-Tunga.
Anne: Yeah, that's a really good, shift. And I think also that's, something that we've discussed in an earlier, conversation, is that you do need, money or budget to create more positive [00:14:00] impact. So even though, you might be targeting, similar travelers, is that the more, your traveler spends, the more positive impact you can make in the destination.
Anne: And um, and then the mid range traveler that you have now, do they still have concerns, about traveling with you?
Theo: I think the concerns we had in the beginning especially, and once in all people still have the conversation. it's about, I think, authenticity. It's always about, maybe sometime intrusion in somebody's, daily life. and that's also for us, something we also recognize there.
Theo: 'cause I think people want to have CBT, but then they come to really a rural setting. and then they really whoa, am I doing the right thing and should they be here? but then luckily because the community is really happy to see somebody and they're really welcoming and they know also how they're gonna benefit from it.
Theo: So there's not like begging happening or something like that a preconception disappears very fast with guests. So we have guests who have really almost anthropological, concerns, what am I doing? And, what about cultural [00:15:00] heritage? but when they go and they come back, they be like, man, this is totally different than I thought. because we are not going to a staged experience. We are not, doing an intuition. it's actually well organized. The guides are here. to interact and to translate. yeah, so I think they're quite happy that it's organized. At the same time, it's also still authentic and people are proud and happy to see, and share their culture.
Theo: So I think That
Theo: combination is sometimes difficult to explain in advance. but we try people to share their experience on TripAdvisor and stuff like that, to, to let them share that is really, a cool experience. but of course some people are just concerned that they are doing something bad, instead of they're doing actually something that benefits, yeah.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And then, you said like you have them share, feedback and testimonials, and do you use these testimonials to change your experiences or communication based on, what they've shared?
Theo: yeah, we always have our weekly sessions with guides, so whereby we get feedback from the guests. Sometimes. I don't always put it online. We have also every [00:16:00] guest that fills in our form, that is also a bit more private and, anonymous. I. So hopefully we can get the most of feedback we can, we can utilize, yeah, and we change.
Theo: We have even sometimes,had issues in the community So that we need to go back and start sensitizing and bring the feedback back to the community actually. yeah, so we, we use it actually almost on daily basis. because yeah, it's still a village, in a village. you can control some things. Some things are uncontrollable. That's also the fun of a village. and the bigger the village,more surprises happen. and that's of course a challenge and that's where a really good guide and a good, connection with the community really comes in Very handy.
Anne: So really on local terms. So you're developing the experiences together. Are they welcoming feedback or is this kind of a challenge maybe in cultural differences? is it a conversation that you can have easily or is it kind of sensitive, maybe.
Theo: It depends on the feedback. we've even some of our dancers,it's somehow a bit of a courtship dancing. and in the beginning we thought, oh, it's fun to have this dance and had the guest also participate in it. Then of course some, sometimes [00:17:00] the way a man holds a woman,in that traditional way is maybe not what our Western, guest would appreciate.
Theo: So that's how sometimes the things we need to like change. And the good thing is they understand. They're like, oh, we didn't know. Like we just. Doing what he normally did. those things are sometimes, yeah, they're of course on a cultural sensitivity. but they also understand these are not our own people, so we cannot hold somebody above the waist, or maybe don't hold I guest.
Theo: but yeah, it's, that are things that we only sometimes notice
Anne: Yeah.
Theo: normally they're very welcoming and happy because. and one time they also know a guest is not part of their daily community. they want to give the guests the best experience, but they also know that guests come from a different world with different values and different culture. and that's usually the most hot topic during a evening around the campfire. Comparing where you from, how do you marry, how do we marry? Why don't you have 20 kids? So it's also for them, like a bit of the fun exchange of culture. and that's why they also understand it because they interact with guests.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. So it's also like a [00:18:00] win for them,like they feel proud of sharing their culture, but they also enjoy, connecting with travelers, I think.
Theo: Yeah. Very well. Yes.
Anne: Yeah.
Theo: And also it's also for them fun to see, to learn about the world where, every tradition is really different
Theo: So for them it's never a boring, evening around the campfire.
Anne: That's good. Do you like develop, the experiences in a way that they're always the same, or is it depending on the day or the type of traveler that you are taking out, to a local village, how does that process work? I.
Theo: : Yeah, it's, quite different actually. some people really come with specific interest,and then we tailor make the entire experience of a couple of days even. and some people, they really just want to, have that experience of the colorful, dance and drama. They want to have the tour in the village. So we have a bit more standardized packages that also the community is very aware of. but we also have really a lot of customization. Some people are interested in traditional healing. some want to know the life of, women in the village. [00:19:00] So they don't even want to get organized, as I say. Just guide me. I just wanna be with the community for one day and help them to make a meal, So it really depends. I think next month we have nine years. we are operating and we have done so many different types of tours.
Theo: we even in the beginning started like putting them online, but they were becoming so confusing. We're like, okay. asks for something, we just say, okay, we can organize. But, but
Anne: Yeah.
Theo: also, and also for the community actually, they really have met many people. Some are doctors.
Theo: They want to learn how people heal in the village. other ones are more, spiritual minded. They're looking at, what kind of meditation happens in the communities. And yeah, so we've done quite interesting, purposes so far. Even the tattooing, we have, committees, we do tattoos, we have, we've had. People coming from different countries who have also had their own tattoos now made by their local community. So it's, yeah, we have,many staff. So you're most welcome.
Anne: Yeah, I'm sure to come back. but I think also that because, it's not really scripted in a way that it's really focused [00:20:00] on what their interests are, that it doesn't feel staged and that this is why you can still offer like true, authentic, travel experiences. like beyond the buzzword, I would say.
Anne: Yeah. and also the word authenticity is always something to be discussed, authenticity. And if you really Google it, you'll find out it's something that is how it is at the moment, and not, what happened actually hundred years ago in a museum. and that's, I
Anne: Yeah.
Theo: people are afraid of, I want something authentic, and then they think they want to see something from the past, but when they actually see the present and they see, the pride and the happiness. They forget about authenticity. I think that's sometimes that word can, block people's experience actually. whereby I think people just are looking for something that's real. and I think that's what we offer, but also to avoid misconceptions also. Yes, we have also, more standardized experiences because not everybody knows what they want. We have also learned in the years we have been operating. and some people really know what I want and I want something really unique and special for them. and that's what, that's what we do both actually.
Anne: That [00:21:00] sounds really good. And in the beginning you mentioned something about going to. Fast and you yeah. Struggle to, um, well maybe collaborate with the local communities. so what were these main challenges? Like why, how did you notice that it was going too fast? Like what went wrong and how did you address that?
Theo: Yeah, no, I think a really practical experience, an example, being, it was just before COVID, I think everybody in the world was having, I think, the best tourism ever experienced. and same for us. and that's also when we just started actually the organization. I think we were maybe three years operating. so we just had. Putting up systems, the guides were just getting experience. even ourselves, we did not really know. We didn't benchmark so much yet. so we had so many tourists that eventually they went after each other to the community. The community was like having in the morning somebody passing by, then the afternoon, then again in the evening, and then they told us we are not able to cook for our kids. And I was like, oh,that's something, that's actually when we woke up a little bit. It's like now they, the [00:22:00] tourists have taken over their daily life and that's actually when we started thinking differently about, okay, what's important for you? Which moments of the day do you also need, and even for themselves, because for them was also the first time to do tourism. and they also need to think about, okay, what's, what are for us important days? And that's when we came up with the MOU, like, when are we allowed to come? when also not. and that's, that really has guided us, because all of us were doing something new. And, the good thing we knocked our head a bit early, not when things were really too late. Yeah.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And then besides that, do you find it challenging to balance the needs of locals and travelers?
Theo: it's a good point actually. I think, what we always try to tell travelers is that,they might, have their needs and the interest of course, but we are really going, to visit, a community, and that community, if you live, they still are the community. So we always tell them that we need to respect the community in the households and the daily life and what's important for them, and that we actually to adjust ourselves [00:23:00] a little bit, to their, way of life. and that has been so far, quite okay. I think when we explain it to the guests we have, they really feel also like, oh, wow, there's something we did not. Think about, we thought about, eh, I want to go now. I don't have time tomorrow. I'm setting off to the next destination. That we really brief people in advance.
Anne: Hey, we are going to visit your uncle. And your uncle is, not always, home. Sometimes also has other appointments and also needs to maybe work places. So let's respect his schedule and see how he can, make sure that if we leave that your uncle still has a life and he doesn't have problems. and that is a bit how we try to brief our guest about it. yeah, that we are a guest in somebody's life. and yeah, without Travelers, life still continues. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And what do you think the local struggled with most or struggled maybe.
Theo: in the beginning, the struggle was, I think managing their time, their domestic duties. but also thinking about how far or what are we gonna share with tourists, what are maybe important cultural [00:24:00] traditions and customs and places, that actually are so significantly important.
Theo: That we cannot just share it with anybody without maybe a ceremony or something like that. I think that was also a conversation that needed to be started, when tourists were coming. It was very difficult in the beginning 'cause nobody knew even ourselves what tourism was. but now we really, when we developed tourism and community-based tourism that are one of the first things we talk about and we really. make an overview of, yeah, what are the important places, sacred places and customs and traditions within that particular community, and what are they willing to share and also what's, what not. And that's, yeah, that really guides us a lot. So that's, I think, the journey. We have a couple of communities really proud of.
Theo: they have now understood and they're able to share this experience with others. And I think setting boundaries, I think that's in general actually. what, was the challenge?
Anne: Yeah. And I guess it was also your role to facilitate, that they were able to, provide the boundaries. 'cause it might have not come natural, to them to actually say, we don't want to share that. Yeah. That's an [00:25:00] important role to have.
Theo: Yeah. And maybe secondly also I just, thought about it. It's also in terms of, earnings. in the beginning we thought about our price and they said yes, we went with it, and then they came to us like, it's not enough, so we want more. And then we say no, it's not possible. So then we found the thought about, okay, this is not the right strategy. so we actually laid down, how we developed the price for the tour. and we really said, okay, as Kara-Tunga, we need 25% to make sure we can market, we can keep on training,and then the 75% can really go to. To the local community, maybe operational fees. and it was funny when we started extracting the fee and also comparing it to other locations within Uganda that now the conversation was not about I want more. It's more like, oh, okay. I think it's very feasible. Okay. What can we do from this budget, and how can we divide it among the community, there was also quite a challenge, I think many CBT. Experiences have the same challenges about how do you develop a price, how do they divide it in the community? How do they plan with that [00:26:00] money? So when I guess maybe comes, they also wanna say, Hey, I'm bringing money, but what happens to the money? and that really can be good and bad. If they don't see any effects, they might also be like, how about Kara-Tunga? Are you're telling us you are giving money to these people, but they're not seeing any progress. then at least now we can say, no, their progress is this and this plan, so let's have a look at the plan.
Theo: Instead of, thinking the progress you wanna see is maybe beautiful houses and, vehicle. Maybe that's not the ambition of the community. yeah,that's something that I'm sure many CBT struggle with, like the issue of money and how it's gonna be distributed in the community to make them also feel the value.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And how do you do that distribution of money? Do you pay, like per person or per village? And then how do you ensure that it's actually shared? And is actually benefiting the entire community. do you have a specific, structure for that?
Theo: Actually we have different structures. we have, accommodation facilities that we have built within the communities in community land For those [00:27:00] ones, we share actually every year, a feed to, that's called a particular community. and that doesn't go to one person and goes to an organized structure of the community, which have a plan.
Theo: They have a, a board of governors, and they also need to account for that money, of course. Then for those accommodation facilities, 10% of every bed night fee someone pays also goes to the same fund. And that's how people really feel like, wow, tourism is benefiting us as a whole. Then for the tourism activities, for the CBT experiences, we actually make sure before we do any activity, they need to be organized.
Theo: and usually we don't organize a fresh association. We always say if there's already established association, let this be an additional activity that you conduct. some of them they do already farming as a group. some are doing go through. Wearing, and then tourism actually becomes one of those income generating activities. and this goes, traditionally to a saving group that now all the members can use, they can borrow money for their own investments, [00:28:00] maybe in a shop buying another goat. maybe somebody's, sick back home, they can use the money, and at the end of the year they need to bring them money back with some interest. and then they divide it actually again and start again saving. we actually don't do any payment to individuals apart from guides. I.
Anne: yeah, that sounds fair. And also, yeah, safe in a way that you ensure that there is no option for, corruption or to really ensure like fair benefits for everyone, involved.
Theo: so I just remembered something.Uh, going back to the revenue and the, and the money issue, I think it's quite important that many of the really. traditional rural communities who start doing CBT, that's, not all tour operates have the good intention. they have sometimes guides who just want to make their own money. They might, even, compromise, for example, the relationship, they might pay less than they actually have received. and this is something the CBT especially might struggle with.
Theo: As tour operator who is a local tour operator, we know we need to set up this long-term, agreements. I. the community gets individual tourist, individual guides, [00:29:00] and they start beginning from fresh. and sometimes the community ends up, compromising their own values. So that's something I think, that, as a tour, operators really help the CBT,
Theo: Actors like the committees to really be more firm uh, to their values. be able to say no if it doesn't fit,their structure, their agreement with other tour operators to protect themselves. That's something I've seen a lot actually in this rural areas that the community's happy with any money, but sometimes they're really,
Theo: extorted almost, by tour operators who don't have this long-term ambition, they just want to make profit that they have a good experience. And then leave the problems for the next tour operator who's coming. So that's something quite important maybe for CBT actors and tour operators to be concerned about.
Anne: Yeah, no, exactly. I think all coming back to making sure that it's a win-win win situation. So win for the traveler, having amazing experience for the local communities, for their income, but also their pride and to share their culture, but definitely also for the tour [00:30:00] operator when you sell it successfully.
Anne: but I guess like fair treatment is definitely at the core of that. Okay. And then,part of successful community-based tourism is also the communication and marketing, as you've said yourself before. because if you're not able to sell your experiences successfully, you won't have any travelers or not as many as you would like, and therefore you can't create the positive impact that you're actually.
Anne: Aiming for,
Theo: So, do you have a specific marketing strategy and focus on how you share your stories and how you sell your experiences?
Theo: Yeah, I think based on what I shared a bit earlier in this,interview, it's also, we are really focused on storytelling and the, yeah, the authenticity and the pureness of our experiences. and especially also in, the benefit for the community. That's really what we always want to, make comeback.
Theo: that we are educating guides. We are training hospitality staff, and that for us, we are really spearheading this, yeah, more regenerative, almost, tourism development [00:31:00] in our region. so we use your social media a lot. our Instagram, TikTok and Facebook is for us, for the guides to actually have a voice.
Theo: If you now Kara-Tunga Tours, you'll see a lot of videos from the villages on the bike, and. the motorbikes, hiking, that's really for people to see what happens on daily basis. on our LinkedIn, we try to, focus a bit more on impact, 'cause we know the audience a bit more, business minded and Twitter is really like our, daily news channel, especially here within Uganda. We know that many of the professionals are on Twitter, so we try to at least keep people up to date on what we are doing,and then as last one, our newsletter, I'm happy today, our communication officer arrived. we are now gonna at least finally have our monthly newsletters, because we have a huge database. and that's, I think very important. newsletters a bit more for yeah, longer stories.
Theo: Not everybody's on social media anymore nowadays, especially in Europe. to keep,people up to date. yeah, but I think that's a bit our strategy. So using. Social media newsletter. We have a website we update a [00:32:00] lot, but also proactively reaching out to, journalists,researchers. we also try to participate in expos and to try to win awards. that's always, One of our ambition to make sure that we, yeah, we share our knowledge, we, establish our authority that we know what we are doing, but also they're willing to share, what we know. We don't want to keep it for ourselves, but we always have been about sharing our learnings and making sure more people benefit, from, and the opportunity in tourism.
Anne: Exactly. Yeah. And then in terms of the awards, it's also, I think getting the recognition of that, you're doing it successfully, To have that shared, celebration with also with the community to, to really show that what it is that you're doing, works.
Theo: Exactly. Yeah.
Anne: And you said you also do a lot of storytelling. what's the process there? Do you collect stories from the community or do you let guides do that? Like how does that work?
Theo: we have been having some projects,over the years. So we have a YouTube channel with quite some, yeah, some stories,especially about our impact. and what we do at it, it depends. Sometimes the guides [00:33:00] are the ones interviewing. we have also, experts who help us,developing those small documentaries. but I, I just see it's maybe not the most popular video we have ever produced, but I think it's just important that it's out there. and that if someone is looking for what do they do, how is the impact? And not, only hear it from us. Speaking, but also from the community, telling it, in their own authentic way. I think that was just for us, very important. So it's,if I look at the most popular content we make, it's usually a funny video. I think that's how people are nowadays. but we always, invest also in the story behind the funny video and what the impact is of that. So that's a bit how I've been doing it over the years. And I really recommend it. I think,it's a bit of justifying what you do. and as a tour operator you can always say I'm the best, but I think it's more better to all win an award or even better have the community say what is good about it and how they are feeding the benefits.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And you said like you use these kind of stories on your [00:34:00] YouTube channel and not on your social media. do you feel like there's no specific interest in these kind of stories or do you think like showing the adventure is more appealing, to these type of alerts?
Theo: Yeah, no, it's very interesting. we've had some conversations about this with our, partners as well,that I think everybody at the moment almost impacts should be normal or something. And, that any activity you do as a tour operator should have impact in a positive way. that in the beginning we also thought about need to put impact on our Instagram, Twitter. But it was less engaging, with, I think the audience, people maybe don't have that time or something. that's why we tried, at least if we share something, that we show what we do and that people are enjoying it. But if you want to look for the story behind it, that it's available, yeah, that's maybe why I think we did not put it on our other channels.
Theo: We have our LinkedIn for it, our YouTube, but on Instagram, Twitter, maybe something. to try one day and see if, we can make a, fun impact videos. Maybe that's also what he struggled with to make a fun impact. Uses like a bit boring impact story. [00:35:00] Yeah.
Anne: Yeah, I guess you have to find a way on how to make it appealing for that type of traveler that you can still share your impact, but in a way that they want to engage with it. and with that, do you see a shift of travelers' interest in community-based tourism, for example, through social media?
Theo: I don't know dunno particular through social media, but I think if I look at, tour operators and travel agents in general, that I think when we just started it, I think 2015, 16, it was upcoming. I think that was more and more interest in, yeah, experiencing a country beyond, I think the nature, and.
Theo: Especially here in Uganda because we saw remote. that's actually any tour we get extra is already an increase in interest. and I think after, COVID-19, we have seen a lot of tour operators intentionally, contacting us and saying, we want you on our program. I. because we don't have such rich experiences elsewhere in the country, and they find it very important to balance the nature, the culture, the history, with also this, this experience. [00:36:00] And to make sure that yeah, that the local community benefits from the resources, and as well as, yeah, exchanging this, this knowledge among tourists and the community. yeah, I think it's increasingly getting popular for sure.
Anne: That's good to hear. so what advice would you give to other travel businesses looking to sell community-based, tourism experiences to the mainstream, traveler?
Theo: Yeah, good one. I think one is, I always have been doing is like to focus really on an authentic experience, rather than it's, good for the community. It's, so sustainable, et cetera. I think people are looking for, something unforgettable, and something that's pure and it's, something worth their time. that. especially CBT should be already benefiting the community. So they, I think they are somehow expecting it from you that it should be done in a good way. I think secondly also, it's to invest in your guides.
Theo: I think that's very important. and to keep the authenticity at the moment. I told you we are training our guides as well. 'cause I saw the moment you move around the country, especially comparing it to [00:37:00] rural area. That they have really a lot of indigenous knowledge. but sometimes they also need to combine it with the knowledge maybe of, native interpretation, a bit more broader knowledge to really make sure they give the guides of the tourism a good experience as well. and I think. in general, don't only think about the village, don't only think about the cooking experience. many tourists, the majority is looking, I think for adventure. So if you look at Uganda, number one, interest is gorillas. Number two is wildlife. And then number three is hiking.
Anne: Yeah.
Theo: in general, what I say is, yeah, that CBT, experience developers, should think about not only the community and the village, but think about what's really, training at the moment for tourists. And how can they also tap into those trends, and also earn a living.
Theo: And, and that's for us. We have looked in hiking, tracking, nature walks, birding, and that can really be fun if you combine it with indigenous knowledge. I think that makes it really authentic.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And I'm very authentic to the local region for the locals and then yeah, combined with, what travelers are looking [00:38:00] for. I think that's,really good advice. thank you so much for sharing. And with that, I would like to wrap up this conversation. thanks again for joining and I hope to talk to you soon.
Theo: Thank you to Ann and all the best, and looking forward to, seeing this one online.
Anne: I hope you'll enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
Anne: There is so much we can learn from companies like Kara-Tunga, and it's great to see how empowering local communities can be successfully balanced with amazing travel experiences all while making profit.
Anne: If you're enjoying your podcast, like a share this episode. And don't forget, subscribe to our channel to not miss any future episodes.
Anne: Thank you for listening and help. See you next time.