Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
In “Sustainable today, successful tomorrow” Anne and Rik (Good Tourism Institute) explore real-world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
Sustainable destinations as the default 😲
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Can a destination make sustainable travel the default? 😲
In this week’s episode of Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow, we tackle one of the most ambitious questions in sustainable tourism and explore what it really takes to turn it into reality.
We share practical examples and perspectives from Vail, Colorado, a destination that is taking sustainability seriously at the core of its strategy. 💪
We break it down into:
🏛️ Policy, infrastructure & regulation
🧭 Nudging travellers through smart design
🚌 Making the sustainable choice the easiest one
🌿 Balancing visitor impact with local needs
📣 Using marketing as a subtle but powerful tool
If you’re working on destination management, or just curious what the future of travel could look like this episode is for you. 🎧
Anne: [00:00:00] I don't think there are reasons for destinations not to do it. I really have the opinion the destination should take the lead. However, I do know it's a high investment to put these policies in place to work on infrastructure And also, you can put the policy in play, but then you also have to spend a lot of time and resources on enforcing that it's being followed.
Rik: Welcome back to Sustainable. Today's Successful Tomorrow, where we explore real world sustainable tourism stories that actually work. Today's episode is an especially interesting one. We're asking a big question, Canada Destination make sustainable travel due default. To explore this idea, we've interviewed Beth Environmental Sustainability Manager for the town of Vail in Colorado.
Rik: In this episode, we'll share a few short clips from that conversation and we'll released full interview next week.
Rik: [00:01:00] But first, Anne, what do you think sustainable travel as a default could look like and is it even possible?
Anne: I think it's possible, but it really depends on how destinations manage their destinations. So they would really have to align all their policies, regarding land use, transport, short term rentals, infrastructure, all to, sustainability.
Anne: And I guess that's the biggest challenge. I do think that if all destinations fit that, that travel. Kind of automatically travel sustainably if they went there. so I think for now it's a bit futuristic. On the other hand, I do think a lot of destinations are doing amazing things. so yeah, I think long term definitely possible.
Rik: Yeah, infrastructure and management are key in this, but before we dig any deeper, why do you think this is such an important topic today?
Anne: I think because we're having so much, issues with tourism worldwide, last week I was reading an article on Travel Weekly, the European summer has started, and that in [00:02:00] Italy, Portugal, Spain, residents took to the streets to protest against mass tourism. They quote the local on this and they said they were not mad at tourists. Were mad at the government. Like, how are they dealing with tourism?
Anne: How are they dealing with. with short term rentals. So they're mad at how the government is treating tourism versus how they treat other industries. And I think this is the key aspect is that the government or destination management has such a big responsibility in how tourism ISS managed. And they have the opportunity, they have the resources, maybe not the tools yet, but there's a lot they can do.
Rik: Yeah, I agree. I think the local government has the biggest say in how tourism is handled.
Rik: At the same time they say they're angry at the government, but. They do act out on the tour themselves, right?
Anne: Yeah. But I think by doing that, they're kind of hurting, the travelers as well.
Anne: 'cause they don't have a good experience. I think it's the same with the [00:03:00] train strikes, right? you're hurting the people that want to travel by train, but it's the organization of the train, you're protesting again, noise testing again. So I guess that kind of makes sense.
Anne: He wants it to be as visible and disruptive as possible for, the government to notice that you're really not happy with it. Yeah. but yet I do think that there's really big part, of sustainable tourism that starts with management of
Rik: deformation.I guess they are getting the media attention they want, so
Rik: It's probably working. We talk about, sustainable travel being the default, but what is default for you?
Anne: Yeah. That is really the normal standard approach and not the exception. And that the way that tourism is managed, planned experience is always, sustainable.
Rik: So the main question of today, can a destination make sustainable travel de default? It kind of implies that the government or destination is mostly responsible here.
Rik: and I think [00:04:00] Beth has something quite interesting to say about responsibility. So let's listen to the clip. Yep.
Beth: Destination. Sustainability is something that has been important to us. Think develop 19. Environmental stewardship was part of that. Editor. When you're here, you look around, understand why. So we really wanna bring to. Resonate environment stewardship, and you are looking to come to a place that does care, prioritize disability.
That's really interesting. It actually sounds like she says that the destination is the one mostly responsible and that by taking that responsibility, they're actually attracting travelers who want to travel more sustainably. Who do you think should take the lead in this?
Anne: well, yeah. I'm also on the side that the government or destination management should take, the lead because there [00:05:00] is only so much travelers can do, or what local businesses can do, if the infrastructure, the policies are not a place to benefit sustainable tourism.
Anne: for example, talk about infrastructure. Like we're from the Netherlands and we are really used to, separating our waste and recycling it. And when we moved to Bali, I think we definitely intended to continue that 'cause we think it's important. But here in where we live now, you kind of, you're lucky when it's even picked up.
Anne: So there's no option to separate it, to recycle.
Rik: we do pay for garbage collection, but
Anne: Yeah. But it doesn't mean they count
Rik: and apparently the landfills are so
Anne: Yeah. Sometimes they're so full that's why they don't come.
Anne: Yeah. 'cause they can't handle anything else.
Rik: Yeah. And there's no communication about that either, so you just have to hope they show up to collect your garbage.
Anne: Yeah. And sometimes it's just, it disappeared, which is good.
Rik: Honestly, I've never seen the truck, but the garbage does disappear.
Anne: I've seen it sometimes, but never [00:06:00] seen it actually being picked up. But I guess it's really here that the destination has the responsibility to, to protect local assets, because I feel that well, locals have the most at stake, and they have, they have the option and the responsibility to make sure that.
Anne: Like how the destination handles, irresponsible tourism. and at the same time, you have the collective impact because if, the government or destination management, changes the policy, it's done at scale and it's really systematic, policies that make the big difference basically. Because like we, the thing, here in Valley is like we can try and reduce our plastic water bottles, but it has only actual change.
Anne: If Valley conduct up with proper waste management.
Rik: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think these examples really show how much of an impact that, regulations can have. Yeah. But to challenge that for a bit and also think about, the travelers. are there any reasons, why it shouldn't [00:07:00] be the destination's responsibility or where it maybe gets a bit more complicated?
Anne: I don't think there are reasons for destinations not to do it, but I think, I really have the opinion the destination should take the lead. However, I do know it's a high investment to put these policies in place to work on infrastructure And also, you can put the policy in play, but then you also have to spend a lot of time and resources on enforcing that is actually, that it's being followed.
Anne: and then again, you also have the risk of backlash. if you over-regulate and you make your destination inconvenient or, yeah, not fun for travelers like that when it's really impacting their travel experience, that they might go to a competing destination. And yeah, that might be issues, but.
Anne: I do think, that's what destinations can do really well is nudge travelers in, being more responsible. 'cause if they make sustainability to default, they really have the opportunity to make it obvious. Yeah, and [00:08:00] I guess that's good. I
Rik: think the backlash you mentioned is really interesting because, for example, not too long ago, the City of Amsterdam released their stay away, campaign, which is quite.
Rik: Controversial, I would say they're basically telling certain types of travelers, the party travelers to stay away from the city. Yeah. and I haven't actually heard anything about the results. Have you read anything about, is it working?
Anne: I'm not sure. I think a lot of people found it funny and I think the party people,I'm not too sure if they're really influenced by it.
Anne: But it did got a lot of attention.
Rik: getting back to the topic at hand, I also feel that most travelers aren't that concerned with sustainability still. They say that they are, but their actions prove differently.
Anne: This, the group that cares about sustainability, I think is smaller Yeah. Than the group that.
Anne: Doesn't really.
Rik: Yeah. So as a destination, your messaging should [00:09:00] be subtle unless you want to come across as harsh like Amsterdam did in the, in this case, but they really want to ban out a certain type of traveler. Yeah. So to dig a little deeper into that, do you think it's possible to design, a destination in a way that travelers are acting sustainably without even realizing it?
Anne: yeah, I think like to a certain extent it's definitely possible and I think it really has to do with the planning, like urban planning. walkable, cities, car zones. Easy to, to bike or to get around and for example, Vail. And they have an e-bike sharing system, where you just go grab an e-bike, and just explore town.
Beth: That's cool.
Anne: That's really cool. And then it's really convenient because you don't wanna get into, the car every time you go somewhere. But sometimes walk me too far. So bike is like a really good, in between.
Rik: Yeah. And an e-bike is accessible as well for everyone.
Anne: Yeah. Yeah. You don't actually have to bike, so
Rik: not really.
Rik: There's some discussion about that, but
Anne: yeah. But [00:10:00] it's zero. Well, minimum effort,
Rik: minimum f
Anne: minimum effort to bike. But I think that's a really good, example, but also, Get signage and maps to stimulate the responsible behavior. so for example, I really like, where you have like escalators and stairs next to each other and then they display the calories you burn, when you take stairs.
Anne: Like these are very, oh, minimum small effort that you can do, to stimulate people, taking stairs for example.
Rik: Kind of gamification, making it fun.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. that's a really good. Solution. and then you also have the source text, of course, that you can put into conservation, and also making certain, things default.
Anne: for example, a really good and easy, convenient, waste, separation system recycling. yeah, make it into a game. make sure people are rewarded, for doing so. and then also the smart pricing is really important. So for example, very cheap carbon transport, but then expenses, parking. Yeah.
Anne: For that. People often do think with their [00:11:00] wallet, so that they're all nudged to, make no responsible choice. It's also cheaper. and VE actually has a free year-round bus, system in the area. And yeah, let's listen to a clip of that because this is really good example.
Beth: Okay.
Beth: Dale has the largest free bus stands for America. We operate 365 days a year. Depending on the season, you can get a bus anywhere. Every 30 minutes, we have an in town bus that kind of hits our poor village areas. And then we have outlying buses that come in from Eastvale at Westvale to the center of town.
Beth: So we're really able to transport people. It's really easy to come here and not have a car.
really a great example.
Rik: If public transport is free and it's easy to use, why wouldn't you use it? But again, it does raise the question, is it important that travelers are [00:12:00] aware that they are being sustainable?
Anne: is a good question. I think, I'm not sure actually because like usually you have the whole argument for raising awareness among travelers. educating them is all about the snowball effect So really teaching them something and hoping that they take it into account when they're making new travel plans.
Anne: But if they're unaware, are they able to make more responsible decisions in a new destination? But I'm not sure if it's that important. I do think, like for example, the bus, does it really matter that they know there's less carbon rather than going with their own car? I'm not sure.
Rik: I'm a bit of a cynic, I guess.
Rik: I think mostly, of course there is a small group that does care, but mostly people don't really care that much. Because their actions are usually,
Anne: yeah, they're on holiday, just one another for their best experience.
Rik: Yeah. They're on holiday and they don't really want to think about being sustainable or, picking a more difficult option.[00:13:00]
Rik: Yeah. so usually I would say it's up to the government to set up regulations. to make that happen. Yeah, and I think a good example from the Netherlands, is, and it's not that much of regulation, but it does show what happens when the sustainable option becomes more available and cheaper is with, meat in the supermarkets.
Rik: In the Netherlands, meat replacements, meat alternatives became a lot cheaper over the years, and meat got more expensive. So what you see that is happening is that people are picking meat alternatives over actual meat simply because it's cheaper and. It's not that much about being sustainable.
Rik: it's perk, but it's not the main reason because we only saw it happening once the prices went down. Yeah. And it became more available. so I, I think convenience is a
Anne: really big, require.
Rik: Yeah. So I feel that, to be honest, that it's mostly about results and the easiest way to [00:14:00] get results is to be available, be convenient, and be affordable because.
Rik: As you said, people do think with their wallets.
Anne: Yeah, that's interesting because it con contradicts what we said in earlier episodes is that you have to attract a high quality traveler. So that's an interesting take on the one hand, we have to make sustainable options, available, but I think they would probably transport with, vegetarian food.
Anne: On the other hand, if you want the high class sustainable activities that are organized. you do have to attract the traveler. It has more to spend.
Rik: Mm-hmm. But let's be honest, if you want to attract a luxury traveler, do they want to go by obit transport?
Anne: Maybe you fail. They do.
Rik: Maybe you fail. Yes. But
Anne: because it's also like axial is, squeezed in between two mounted ridges.
Anne: There's only so much parking they have. Like how annoying is it to have to find a parking spot for your car all the time that you want to go somewhere? I think it's really,
Rik: yeah, I agree. It's really dependent on the [00:15:00] situation and the destination.
Anne: Yeah. And actually talking about cars.
Anne: A bill has, what they actually did also to reduce pressure on one of their, hotspot waterfalls was to close down the parking,because now, only people that take the bus or bike can actually get there and then hike to the waterfall. Yeah. So they really. Filtered out who was actually willing to make some more effort, to actually go there and experience it.
Anne: you're rewarding them for taking the bus or the bike. Yeah. you can't go there by car anymore. And I think that's a really good example of destination management taking sustainability into account
Rik: Yeah, definitely. I think that's important. And as you said, the high class traveler won't mind if they're being rewarded.
Rik: I.
Anne: Yeah. And it's also a different experience. Like you can also make public transport convenient and fun. if you can just hop on and hop out.
Rik: Yep. As long as there's enough availability. The buses have to run on a tight schedule, and they have to move like every, I don't know, at least every 15 or 30 [00:16:00] minutes, depending on where you are.
Anne: Yeah. But that's, I think what, pat, said like in high season, like peak winter, peak summer, every five minutes. So you don't have to look at the clock. You don't have to plan anything. You
Rik: don't have to wait.
Anne: You don't have to wait. You just go and hop on the bus.
Anne: Yeah. I think that's very important. Yeah.
Rik: Having said that, let's move to the practical side of things. What can a destination actually do to make sustainability more default?
Anne: there's a whole toolkit for that. I think, and I said that before it, it really focuses on, On the policies. if it really focuses on the policy and smart regulations,regulations for, how they manage, shorter rentals, if they have low emission zones, if they, set limits to number of people that visit, sensitive areas. And this is actually something that destination auction already do, especially ones that have nature, in the destination, is that they close off certain areas when they have breeding, birds.
Anne: Yeah. that's already part of it. But it's very important that they also start doing [00:17:00] that for example, a lot of people. Because they feel, there's too much pressure. So I think policies and regulations is number one. at the same time, infrastructure is really important because like the waste management system or renewable energy, that's just key for managing a destination in a sustainable, way.
Anne: And then. Also the bike and car sharing initiatives that's available, but also car emission zones, like these are all aspects to really make sure that the destination is more, sustainable, to live in, but also to visit. and I think also what's underestimated, especially for cities is lots of green.
Anne: So the more trees, the more plants you have, the more, yeah, the more Rainier is in your city, the less hot it gets. for example, looking at Southern Europe right now, there are cities that really could use some,
Rik: I actually saw a photo of that just last week, comparing one street to another, depending on how much green there was.
Anne: Yeah. I love these photos.
Rik: I thought it was like [00:18:00] a 10 or 15 degrees difference in the same outside temperature.
Anne: Yeah.
Rik: Which is crazy.
Anne: it's such, I think really under underestimate how much nature or how much trees can benefit us in cooling down.
Rik: Yeah. And let's be honest, who wants to live in a concrete jungle?
Anne: I do not. No, I think a lot of people do, not really live in a concrete jungle, but really, 'cause they have all the facilities. Yeah. Like cities are
Rik: convenient. Yeah, of course. But if a city can be green, that would, why not?
Anne: Yeah. No, absolutely.
Rik: Yeah. But like you said, infrastructure is key and I think that all kind of falls under management because it's all falls to local governments.
Rik: What about the role of locals and businesses? How essential are they?
Anne: crucial. I think you really need to have locals and local businesses on board. 'cause you want them to be ambassadors basically. And without it, you can't really make or the maximum impact that you're trying to create or to be as sustainable as you would like.
Anne: this would [00:19:00] involve, training and funding local businesses to be more sustainable. For example, for change to, renewable energy or certification, for example. But also to really ensure that, the supply chain is, local. so that on the one hand you have visitors enjoying local products.
Anne: Second is that all the money stays in the local economy. And the third is also that you reduce a lot of carbon footprint if you don't import a lot of products. and I think it's really key to ensure that your residents would also visitors understand what you're doing and that they support it. so a really good example from Bill iLIGHT is the restorative go, project.
Anne: It's a Gore Creek and it's, a Colorado River, running through the town, Oakville. And it's actually a highlight for both locals and for visitors. it's wildlife habitat, but also water supply for surrounding communities. And the Gore Creek is actually driven by [00:20:00] pollution. And what they're doing now is every month they host a free lunch and information session somewhere in nature.
Anne: You can go and, enjoy your free lunch and really learn about what they're doing and you can support it directly. Yeah. And Bev actually said that it's, always fully booked, goes with locals and with visitors. Yeah. And I think that's a really great example of making something. Well, sustainability information, not always fun.
Anne: it's your holiday like, but if you make it into an experience Yeah. And where you can really contribute,
Rik: get some free food and process free
Anne: food in a process, in nature, in a spot where you usually can't eat. I think, yeah, I think that's a really good example and maybe that really well,
Rik: yeah, that's a brilliant initiative to bring the travelers and the community together.
Rik: Yeah. And you really need those locals on board because those are the people who live there year round. So it's really important to get them involved and this seems like a great initiative. Yeah.
Rik: All of this sounds great, but to really actually get this done, [00:21:00] you need some strong marketing efforts behind it. Yeah,
Anne: absolutely.
Rik: And
Anne: all comes down to marketing,
Rik: Yeah. So how do you market a destination where sustainable travel is a default? And Beth, that's something interesting to share about how they are nudging travelers in the right direction regarding their hiking trails.
Rik: let's listen to a clip of that.
Beth: Less trails. And so that is one of our approaches is to really highlight some of the trail and try to draw people off of and away from some of those more popular work trails so that they can get a, have a chance to revegetate, to really recover a bit from some of that overuse.
Anne: I really like what they're doing.
Anne: reducing pressure on a certain natural area by promoting different, trails.
Rik: [00:22:00] Yeah.
Anne: And like I think we all know how these goes. Like for example, you go to a new destination, you wanna go on a hike, you Google and there's always like one or two hikes that pop up.
Rik: Yeah, definitely.
Anne: And everyone is doing them.
Rik: Yeah. And it's usually the easy to go hikes. Yeah, like 5K.
Anne: Yeah. So like the 5K easier hikes, easy accessible. but because they're always pop up on number one or two recommended hikes, they're always the busiest as well. And it doesn't mean that other trails are less beautiful or that you would really miss out doing something else.
Anne: I think it just really means that certain influencers did not hike that specific trail. So I think the role of marketing here, and I think that's what Vail is doing really well, is to promote and to, to highlight other trails and to really make chart of curious about what they would experience there.
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: 'cause it's the same area. And you might not go to that famous waterfall. everyone goes, but you can have that amazing picture. but you could go to a smaller waterfall that you could have to yourself, and [00:23:00] then it's kind of after the travelers. So the two decide what they want, obviously. But I think it's a really good example of nudging travelers to make, more responsible decisions.
Rik: I completely agree. Basically, it's clever marketing and sustainability management all in one.
Anne: Yeah. Because of this week's, communicating sustainability without mentioning sustainability.
Rik: Yeah. And it's about highlighting the alternative.
Anne: Yeah.
Rik: in a way that is not preachy.
Anne: No, exactly.
Anne: Or you cannot course, along the trail or start, do, provide information about, Lead no trace, for example. Yeah. 'cause that is communicated sustainability. but you can only do that if you provide the bins as well. So the waste management infrastructure. so there's always a combination, I think.
Anne: but I think sustainable marketing as a destination is really positioning, the destination as sustainable, as default and. By doing that, I think marketing turns into this really powerful, tool
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: that nudges travelers to responsible behavior. And I really love how that works.
Rik: Yeah. It's such a [00:24:00] simple solution and it's so powerful.
Rik: It's just highlighting the alternative.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. it's interesting like here, for example, with the example of Vail is it all comes together. It's nature protection. It's, policies, it's reducing pressure, it's communication, it's influencing travel behavior.
Anne: So it all comes together. so all aspects of destination management are important here. Yeah. To ensure that it actually works. 'cause you can't use marketing if the policies are not in place or if your market's the wrong thing or.
Anne: Definitely stay away from greenwashing Yeah, no, absolutely. But yeah, and I really love how marketing can be like a final push to actually make it happen.
Rik: Yeah, definitely. And we've actually covered quite a bit today already, so it's time to wrap up again. So let's get back to the main question. Canada destination make sustainable travel the default, do you think? Yes. Or is it still more of a future aspiration?
Anne: I think it's kind of aspirational [00:25:00] for now, but I do think there are a lot of destinations that are doing amazing things that, I think on a long term, if they keep going, what they're doing and improving every year. yeah, I do think it's possible, and it might be easier for example, smaller destinations or islands because it's easier to manage a small destination obviously.
Anne: On the other hand, I think larger destinations have more resources, more their manpower. but I think it's definitely possible. And I also think for destinations that are starting or want to improve, I think certification, is a really good. Way to start.
Rik: Yeah. listen to our episode certification pursue or avoid.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We talked about how certification for both accommodations to operators destinations is just a really good, framework. Yeah. So structured approach of, okay, you have 200 criteria, what can you do? And start working on making sure you comply to all of them.
Rik: Yep.
Anne: And that is really,well, it's a good structured way to, to start with sustainability.
Rik: Yeah. I think the big takeaway [00:26:00] from today is to make it feel easy to everyone involved, and that makes it more of a norm.
Anne: It's only possible if the destination shows strong leadership has clear policy and really, I. Just take sustainability into account for every decision.
Anne: And if they do that, then they can try and move on. Achieve it.
Rik: Yeah. Absolutely agree. Let's wrap up.
Anne: Thank you for listening. And stay tuned for the full interview I did with Beth. In our next episode, I talked to her about how Veil is balancing sustainability, with, receiving year-round visitors in a very popular mountain destination. So stay tuned for that. If you have any examples of how destinations are working to making sustainability default, we would love to hear them.
Anne: We would love to see more examples of destination doing the right thing. So for now, like and share this episode. And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, subscribe to the channel. And thank you again for listening and see you next time.
Rik: [00:27:00] Bye.