Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
In “Sustainable today, successful tomorrow” Anne and Rik (Good Tourism Institute) explore real-world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
Byway making flight-free travel work đźš‚
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Trains are back in style, but can it really compete with flying? đźš‚
That’s the question we explore in this week’s episode of Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow.
Together with Paul Conroy from Byway, we dive into what it takes to make flight-free travel inspiring (yet practical). 🤩
From night trains and cross-border connections to the tech challenges of Europe’s rail network, we unpack how Byway turns slow travel into an experience travellers actually want.
We also explore how their model supports locally owned stays, avoids overtourism hotspots, and raises the bar for sustainability communication. 🙌
Whether you’re already a fan of train travel or just curious how to make it work for your travellers, this episode is full of real-world insight and ideas. 🎧
How well are you communicating sustainability? Apply for our free Sustainable Marketing Scan 👇
https://goodtourisminstitute.com/scan/
Anne: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Sustainable. Today's Successful Tomorrow, where we explore real world sustainable tourism stories that actually work. In our last episode, we shared a few highlights from my conversation with Paul, head of partnerships at Byway Travel. A UK based travel business that offers train travel in Europe.
Anne: Today, we're excited to bring you the full interview. Paul and I talked about how Bioway navigates developing and selling train travel, and if the travelers are more interested in the experience or the sustainability aspect of it. It was a very interesting conversation and I hope you learn as much from it as we did.
Anne: I hope you enjoy.
Anne: Trains are back in vogue, but not everyone has jumped on board just yet. So how do you make train travel an exciting and practical choice for travelers? We spoke with Paul from Byway to explore [00:01:00] how to make slow travel sell. Byway is a travel business from the UK with a mission to make flight free travel the mainstream.
Anne: They offer personalized train, boat and bus travel trips in the UK and Europe away from the crowds. So Paul, thank you so much for being here. And to start off, I'm just wondering if Byway is mainly focused on offering an amazing and fun travel experience by train, or is the main motivation the sustainability aspect of train travel?
Paul Conroy: Thank. Well, thank you very much for having me. It's really nice to meet you. really. Interesting question. when we started the business, which was only like five years ago,we thought that, that everybody who would want to buy from us would be interested in the sustainability aspect of their, of their trip. And it's certainly part of it. we do have conversations with customers where they talk about sustainability, but much more common is, People being in love with trains, people being in love with traveling slowly. people may be falling out of love with [00:02:00] the, experience of flying rather than the sustainability impact of flying. I think there's a real thing. There's a, you, in your introduction you mentioned that there's a kind of renaissance of train travel, and I think that's really true. I think there's, I think there's a real market of people. who, are really interested in the connectedness that you get when you travel by train, you travel through a place you experience that place.
Paul Conroy: When you fly over a place, I think you miss quite a lot of, and you could be flying anywhere, right?
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: the clouds that you fly over that look the same wherever you are flying to. whereas when you're traveling through a place, I think there's a real connectedness,that people get by traveling that way.
Anne: and really seeing the train as a journey and part of the experience rather than just the transportation.
Paul Conroy: exactly that. Yes. That's a really good way to put it.in our marketing, we talk a lot about our product as being journey based. So it's not just about
Anne: the destination
Anne: it's about how you get there and how you enjoy Getting there and what you see along, along the way. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: [00:03:00] interesting thing about the demographic as well, about, the conversation about sustainability. So, so when we started the business, we thought that everyone was gonna be like 25 and,and wanting to travel this way because of, because they're really into sustainability. And they're like an activist.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: But it's
Anne: not the case
Paul Conroy: they're much
Anne: good.
Paul Conroy: Our audience is much older. Than that. So it's people returning to train travel. and it might be people who are a bit fed up with flying. I think, I
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: what's happening
Anne: Yeah. So what is the age group averagely, for your target group?
Paul Conroy: over 55 is, is the
Anne: 55.
Paul Conroy: of our
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and,
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: much older. Like, I've seen customers saying, I'm 83, is, am I okay to travel with you? And we're like, yes. Brilliant. Wonderful.
Anne: And what do you think has been the most popular trip so far? Like what's very popular?
Anne: Well, so that's, so, so almost never do we sell the same trip twice. 'cause Oh.
Paul Conroy: our technology allows bespoke trips to be created both online and through our team. But there are certain [00:04:00] routes that are really popular and there's one, if you go from, Switzerland down through the Alps to Northern Italy to Lake Como, there's a railway network called the Ian Railway, which is like a UNESCO World Heritage, site and the train. and by the way, you can get like tourist trains that go through it with like a glass. Glass, roofs that say you've got amazing views, but there are also like perfectly ordinary, passenger trains that travel on the same routes. And we use those more often than the expensive tourist trains because the view's the same. Right. it's just, you just, you just looking out of window. and the journey is amazing because it winds its way through the Alps and sometimes you're up really high in the snow and other times you're really low and it's. and forests and it has to be very slow because it really is winding very slowly through,the Alps. And it takes all day, it takes all day to go from Switzerland to Northern Italy. and it's jaw droppingly amazing [00:05:00] and we love it. and we have so many customers who know it and, have done it once and want to do it again or want to experience it for the first time. And of course when
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: you end up somewhere like Lake Como, which is amazing to, to visit on its
Anne: Also very good. Yeah, yeah,
Paul Conroy: a really
Paul Conroy: of what you are saying about the journey being just as important as the destination.
Anne: absolutely. Yeah. No, I also remember being a Switzer in a train when it's just like, it's a short commute, for example, to the next city. butjust sitting there, having a coffee looking outside is just, yeah, it's a great feeling. Yeah, I definitely see the appeal of trains.
Rik: How well are you actually communicating sustainability? We see many travel businesses and destinations working hard, yet they still struggle to talk about it,
Anne: and maybe you feel the same. You're afraid of being seen as greenwashing, unsure what to share, or just not really connecting with your travelers.
Anne: We've been there with a lot of travel brands and we get how frustrating it is. So with years of experience in sustainable tourism and [00:06:00] marketing, we've created something simple to get you started.
Rik: It's called the Sustainable Marketing Scan. You just answer a few quick questions. We'll take a look, and if it's a good fit, we'll invite you for a short call to go through your opportunities.
Anne: You can start today@goodtourisminstitute.com slash scam and turn uncertainty into a clear, compelling story.
Anne: And I also know that, for example, night trains are growing in popularity. do you see this reflected in your bookings? Like that night train is, yeah, you do. Okay.
Paul Conroy: It's, this is a really interesting one it's not always positive on, honestly, it's not always positive, so, so they're really popular. We have many customers who inquire with us say, I really want to experience a night train. most cases it's not a luxury product.you don't have any views.
Paul Conroy: it's really a means to an end. It's how to wake, it's how
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: to bed in one city and wake up in another. And it's very
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and it's [00:07:00] brilliant. and we love them and we want more, but, but it's important the customers realize it's not a luxury product. The cabins can be quite small, they can be quite noisy. Like I've often, when I've spoken to customers who've been on a sleeper train, my first question is, did you sleep? and many say, not really, but,
Anne: really.
Paul Conroy: know, people do, right? Some people really like sleep well on those and that kind of experience.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: I'm like, I wouldn't sleep. I wouldn't sleep at all. So,
Anne: No, me neither.
Paul Conroy: but you are right. The network across Europe is really. Is really increasing. they're quite hard to operate. And, for many companies that are looking to develop their night train operation, one of the big problems is rolling stock. There's not much night train rolling stock available. it's quite an expensive and difficult thing to do.
Anne: Yes. And it's also quite,they're sold out quite early, right. Sometimes you have to book like very far in advance.
Paul Conroy: that many cabins on a night train.
Anne: what I wanted to ask was, Do your travelers like book far in advance, or is it more like a last [00:08:00] minute, trip Yeah,
Paul Conroy: both is true and it really depends on the season. so we, like, we're a holiday company the same as a traditional. company. Our big peak booking period is the same as I think most of the industry. January, February, March. People
Paul Conroy: in real volume in what we call Q1,
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: travel, may, June, July, August and September. so
Anne: Right. Yeah,
Paul Conroy: the traditional. and we very much fit into that, with our audience. But what's really interesting with ours is sell more in May and June and September, travel July, August because our customers are a little bit older. They don't need to travel during, necessarily during school holidays.
Paul Conroy: yeah, yeah,
Paul Conroy: so
Anne: That's a poke.
Anne: it's really interesting. So September actually is our biggest travel month. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: have, and we like even this morning, we've been making bookings to travel in August, so we do get people traveling, and booking late, but it's not the majority for us. And,
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: honestly, Anne,it,[00:09:00] it sparks another thought around this kind of travel, and we'll probably come onto this later, but, it can be quite difficult to organize stuff way in advance because not all schedules and tickets are released early. There's a thing in travel,
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: rail travel called Booking Horizon, and not every, like, I can't book, for example, a sleeper train for ne for this time next year. It's not available to
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: so
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: whereas of
Anne: that's tricky.
Anne: Right. If you wanted to buy a flight for this time next year, no problem. Right. You can. Yeah,
Paul Conroy: You'd be able to do that online without speaking to anybody, but try and book a
Anne: yeah,
Paul Conroy: for this time next year. It's actually quite
Anne: yeah,
Anne: for example, we're going to, South Korea for,a workshop in, October, and I'm planning to take a train from Busan to Seoul but. It's, we have to travel by train end of October, and I still can't book, like I think I can only book like one month in advance.
Anne: And the same we had with a night train from Helsinki to Yemi. Is that, yeah, you have to wait quite long before, like right [00:10:00] before you can, book the trip. Do you think that this is an issue for them sometimes? Like they really want the security of having everything locked in.
Paul Conroy: this is, something we've had to overcome. So, so your
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: good because Absolutely. They need that security. They want that security. I think anybody would, if you book is something for next year, you wanna know it's booked and done. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and we as a tour operator have that responsibility and that's what we take on by being the operator. so what we've done is we've built some technology that, basically queues up. requests to book so that as soon as they become available through the technology, system automatically books the tickets the day that they
Anne: Right.
Paul Conroy: So, so we can be very confident that, some changes to schedule, which, which may happen.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: we will get the customers,complete itinerary booked, way in advance. So we say to our customers, when you book with us, it's done.
Anne: That's, I think that's also what's needed, Like that's also the offer that you
Paul Conroy: Exactly. And we are providing a service that customers need.
Anne: Yeah, [00:11:00] yeah, yeah.
Paul Conroy: this is why Byway was created in the first place. to book all this kind of stuff as a customer on your own is actually really difficult. Like
Anne: Yeah, I know.
Paul Conroy: it's a really fragmented industry.
Paul Conroy: If you wanted to buy a flight to South Korea, you could do that online yourself, no problem. And if you wanted to attach a hotel to it, very easy,
Anne: you do it. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: could do it right. try and book trains to try and book trains from the UK to Czech Republic, for example, right? That's hard. You'll need to be on three or four different websites to book all the different. Train legs, you'd need to work out where you'll need to stay overnight. If there's a night train involved, how do you do that bit? And if you're booking far in advance, not everything's definitely available yet. So it's a, so this is why Byway was created to actually say to customers, let us do that for you.
Paul Conroy: We can put that together for you and we can do it in a bespoke, unique way.
Anne: exactly. Yeah. Also, for example, my dad, loves, hiking and he goes like for a month, but he always [00:12:00] takes the train. So I remember like when he was telling he was going to, north of Italy and then he had to go like from National Park and he, I think he booked like six or seven different.
Anne: Trains, like to actually get there and then you have to like, take into account all the scenarios. Like what if that train is a bit late or if that one falls out.it's like quite a lot of work and he likes it, so. Sure.
Paul Conroy: Fine.
Anne: but I can't imagine that a lot of people don not want to put that much time and effort, in that.
Paul Conroy: that point about disruption's a good one. and listen, you know, trains like everything else gets disrupted from time to time travel
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: It's, the thing about travel is it will get, something will get disrupted somewhere along the way. Yeah.
Anne: will be delayed or your, the motorway will packed or, Yeah.
Paul Conroy: trains set.
Paul Conroy: again, one of the reasons that people book with Byway is that we include, what we call disruption replanning.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: some disruption that's gonna affect, like in your dad's example where, he wants to make sure that he's gonna meet his connection if that your first train [00:13:00] is delayed and you are gonna miss your connection.
Paul Conroy: It's on byway to reorganize your trip so that you get to where you need to
Anne: Okay.
Anne: and Yeah.
Paul Conroy: We do that as part of our service. Great.
Paul Conroy: Oh that. Yeah. That's really good. I was gonna ask that because also like the trains in Germany, for example, going to ITB Berlin, I think half of the time there's always an issue. interesting,
Anne: yeah,
Paul Conroy: Germany? Germany where you would think their, train system would be very efficient is actually not. Very good.
Anne: it's not.
Anne: Deutsche Ban over the years have had some real problems. Yeah,
Paul Conroy: and, yeah,I've, been to ITB on the train before and I didn't love that if I'm honest.
Paul Conroy: And so you have like this guarantee or your, you rebook, the train.
Anne: Do you do that, like do you keep track of, the trains automatically or do you wait for them to tell, Hey, my train is delayed, what to do?
Paul Conroy: Yeah. So we've got really good information that comes through to us in advance. not always, right. 'cause something's happen. Right, right there and then. But
Anne: Yeah, obviously.
Paul Conroy: if we get notification of disruption, we can get ahead of it. [00:14:00] we, one of the things that we do is, we enter into, a WhatsApp conversation with our customer, with every customer that travels,
Anne: Perfect.
Paul Conroy: we are able to send to them in advance.
Paul Conroy: Please note your tr your train tonight between brittles and cologne is delayed. and also most of our customers travel with an inter rail pass. We provide an in inter
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: our pass as part of their, as part of their trip. So we are advising customers how to adjust their journey on their, in our pass. So that they can just simply get on a different train
Anne: Yeah. So that makes it easier than the booking individual trains to, yeah.
Paul Conroy: Exactly. And it might be that instead of going direct Brussels cologne, they're going Brussels,they might be doing
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: they might be doing a slightly
Anne: But you recommend it. So they don't really have to do anything ju just they just go answered. Great. Yeah, and I was really wondering that because that's the issue I have with train travel is that it just feels unreliable and hearing like all the stories from other people traveling by train, which is of course always the stories you hear.
Anne: 'cause I know like flights are always delayed as well, but the train kind of feels, It feels different for some [00:15:00] reason because it's like, again, we're delayed, but then, yeah, I dunno why, but it just feels different,
Paul Conroy: know what, it's so interesting because the perception. The reality are two different things, right? So something like 98% of all trends in Europe run on time, right? It's really, it's amazingly good, but of course we think about, and we think, we hear about, and we talk about the 2%
Paul Conroy: you've made me think about something I've not been thinking about.
Paul Conroy: Like it's part of the experience. Like Yes. if you are going, if you are going on a 12 day trip across Europe by train, using trains almost every day, at some point are probably gonna have something you are,
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and I think the thing that and we are trying to really get across is. don't let it ruin your, don't let it ruin your day. Don't let it ruin your holiday. There'll be a way, there'll be
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: organize it. And,
Anne: yeah,
Anne: yeah. it's really about managing their expectations. So you prepare them for like, this is going to happen? Probably,
Paul Conroy: do you know what it is? we are not a proxy for [00:16:00] flight inclusive holidays,
Anne: yeah.
Paul Conroy: almost never do we sell. seven nights in, I don't know, late homo, let's say. And the only difference is you're going by train instead of a plane, right? That's not who we are. What we are all about is, and this is what I think we're trying to get across to customers, is, if you're going to Lake Como by train, then overnight in Paris and Zurich on the way down. And you'll see the, like, how great is Paris, right? How wonderful is
Anne: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: right? Like, like, enjoy those journeys, it down. then if you are, Jo, if your train to Paris is delayed, it doesn't matter, you'll just get a later train to Paris and you'll have, and you'll still have a night there or two nights there. And if you are train
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: is like Paris to Jurich, there's three or four different ways to do it. So if
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: for fast TGV is canceled or delayed. Then take the slow train via Strasburg. Like it doesn't matter, right?
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and that's the beauty of traveling with and into our past. It's the beauty of [00:17:00] traveling with a tour operator is, is slow it down and the journey and yeah, things will happen. Doesn't
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: it.
Anne: But I think that's really important, especially, like with the disruptions or the, the stigma that train travel has sometimes is to really change the perspective. So it's not just a transportation to a destination. It's really part of it. And what you said, like if you build in that extra time to enjoy a city that you're passing, it doesn't matter if you're there an hour later.
Anne: So that, that's a really good point. Yeah. Great. we talked about this a bit before, but train and also bus travelers kind of has the stigma for older travelers. Do you do see like a shift from younger travelers to also travel with byway or is it very much concentrated on Yeah. You do. Okay.
Paul Conroy: we absolutely do.
Anne: and then, in terms of product, development, I'm assuming that you have,a basic selection of route that you usually, Offer that are presented on the website, or is it always what travelers are asking for?
Paul Conroy: so both actually. So [00:18:00] we have, the way that we've built the technology allows any connection. That exists to be made into a trip. So, and be, and because the European rail network is so good and literally everything is connected to everything, maybe, one or two degrees of separation, you can get to wherever you want to get to in Europe. what we've done is we've built using a whole bunch of APIs from various partners, the data that allows the connect connectivity of all these different routes. So a customer can go onto our website and use, for example, our maps functionality and say, I want to go Cologne, Basel, and Zurich. our technology will look at how. Best to
Anne: Let.
Paul Conroy: three, those three places up. and it will make recommendations of how long to stay in each one. and, the technology allows completely bespoke online trips to be created. We also have a whole bunch of trips that we've curated that do sell time and time again.
Paul Conroy: we, [00:19:00] and we have something like 400 of those on the website that we've built up over the years that
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: or created and that we've said, okay, we'll turn that into a regular, a trip that we sell. But as I mentioned before, almost never do people book the same trip twice. there'll be different dates because it's public transport. You can travel every day. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: the only exception to that, of course, is like some night trains don't run every night. They're like, run three times a week or twice a week or whatever.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: but other than that, pretty much everything runs every day.
Paul Conroy: some ferries, not every day, but pretty much everything's every day. So, and customers could configure the trips to their requirements. So if a customer says, oh, I'd actually like an extra night in Paris, On the same journey. That's fine. Just you just
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: else, step back a day. so,
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: so yeah, no, we, we have both like set trips that people can go on and bespoke.
Paul Conroy: about half of our customers book online without talking to us
Paul Conroy: and about half come through the.
Anne: That's quite interesting that it's still, that they kind of need the personalized,
Paul Conroy: Yeah,
Anne: connection.
Anne: actually. But [00:20:00] yeah. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: I, I dunno, I, that it might be partly because of the demographic we've attracted,
Anne: Hmm.
Paul Conroy: it might be partly because this is quite complicated and like our UX might not always. be intuitive enough for some of our customers to understand how to do it.
Anne: so we often help customers through the process, if Yeah.
Paul Conroy: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: but we're working all the time on the technology. Like, that's probably been the hardest thing to do actually way through this. like we, we proved quite early on that there was a market for this kind of product. we've, we definitely found that there were customers who were like really into the idea of like that kind of romantic notion of traveling across Europe
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and, night trains, like you said, and like going, like integrating like they maybe did in there when they were young.
Paul Conroy: Like, like there's
Anne: Yeah. Yeah.
Anne: definitely, there's definitely an audience for that and we've found that, what's been harder is pro producing the technology that allows these trips to be made at scale. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: five years down the line, we are a team of 68 people. Would you believe?
Paul Conroy: Wow.
Paul Conroy: sell, we're selling [00:21:00] hundreds of trips every month.
Anne: That's a, that's a great, trend. What trend I would say development, to see in that.
Paul Conroy: Yeah.
Anne: I think train travel is gaining a lot more popularity, in the last few years. I think maybe also had to do a bit with COVID that people have to stay within, within Europe obviously.
Anne: But I do feel that this, security or this knowledge of what connections make sense, where do I book it safely, is really necessary to make it like a comfortable, relaxing trip. so also in your, in your software where they plan the trip online where they map it out, does this also include the accommodations?
Paul Conroy: We are a, we're a tour breaker in the traditional sense, and that means that
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: packages. So our packages are, travel, which is usually trained, but sometimes
Anne: Okay.
Paul Conroy: ferry or sometimes train and ferry and bus accommodation. so we very carefully curate the accommodation that we attach to each trip. So when we look at accommodation,we basically look at three or four things. firstly, proximity to the train station. [00:22:00] What we want is
Anne: Yep.
Paul Conroy: to come out of the train station and be walking distance to their hotel and customers, of course, love that. And that's, you
Anne: Yep.
Paul Conroy: right.
Paul Conroy: This is why I get so excited about it because train stations tend to be in the center of town.
Paul Conroy: So you arrive in the
Anne: yeah,
Anne: walk to your hotel, drop your bags off on, go off on holiday, and yeah, yeah.
Paul Conroy: your, you start your journey.
Paul Conroy: You start your, you start
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: Like I love that. we ask that, our hotels are really well rated, so we look at all the various review sites or. or we know them personally, that we want customers to have a good quality experience. We don't care
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: about star rating. we can have a customer stay in a three star hotel on a trip and a five star hotel on a trip. It doesn't really matter. What we care about is proximity to the train station and reviews. we love it when we can see that the hotel is doing something around sustainability. So, we love it when the hotel tells us that they're, have a single, a single use plastic policy or [00:23:00] use local produce or our, or, are contributing to the local community in some way. We have an energy policy, but we really look for that in our hotel partners.
Anne: Yeah. And you bundle them in your sustainable state collection. Right. So it's actually highlighted as sustainable. Yeah,
Paul Conroy: also, and this does have a sustainability impact, and we should talk about this because sustainability is not just about carbon. Right. everyone gets obsessed
Anne: absolutely. Yeah. Same.
Paul Conroy: and, and and of course traveling by train, it's like 90% fewer emissions than traveling the same route by plane.
Paul Conroy: So, so carbon's of course important, but it's not the only thing. and so for example, we tend. Not always, but we tend not to use chain hotels. We tend to prefer to use locally owned or family owned, hotels. and that is a sustainability thing because when
Anne: local impact.
Paul Conroy: Right. So Exactly. So when you stay at a chain hotel, a lot of the revenue will disappear off to wherever the headquarters of the chain happens to be.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: It won't necessarily stay in the local community, which [00:24:00] as you say, it has an impact. the other thing that you've just reminded me of is, overtourism So, so we've coded into our technology places that we regard as hotspots, and a hotspot would be a place that gets too many tourists.
Anne: So, so two examples, very obvious examples would be Amsterdam and which you know very well and Venice. So, while we will definitely have customers who want to visit both Amsterdam and Venice, and of course they're actually quite important transport hubs as well. Yep.
Paul Conroy: we code into our technology to not allow more than one or two nights stay in those places. So customers going in, experience it and then moving on. So much more likely in a Netherlands tour, for example, or a Netherlands trip. that a customer has one night in Amsterdam via Eurostar when they first get there, but are more likely to stay longer in Utrecht or Rotterdam or Apeldoorn
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: because those kind of places are actually more tourism, needing more tourism. Whereas[00:25:00]
Anne: Yeah.
Anne: like, we're quite full actually. Yeah. And it's a whole, it's an actual experience of the Netherlands.
Paul Conroy: exactly.
Anne: Amsterdam is the Netherlands, but it's very different from, other regions, that we have. Of course.
Paul Conroy: We did a lot of work with, the Netherlands Tourist Board, NBTC, we've got a really lovely relationship. With those guys and they love us because we bring people into the country sustainably by
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: and we don't have them staying in Amsterdam, right? So,
Anne: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: oh, you are helping us promote all these other areas of Netherlands, which is gorgeous, doesn't get a fair share of the market because Amsterdam is so dominating.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: so, so yes, overt tourism is something that we really focus on. other thing is time. so, and we talk, when we talk about July and August, like being really peak for travel, it's absolutely true. but we try, and I actively spread tourism across, the year. And the thing about traveling across Europe by train is, Actually, it's really [00:26:00] lovely to travel in September and October or May and June, or even February or March because actually it's not about the weather, it's about what the architecture or the food or the cultural or music or whatever it is you are traveling for.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: it's not about necessarily just weather. So, so spreading tourism across by time as well as by place has a real sustainability impact.
Anne: Yeah. we had, in our previous season of the podcast, we had, an episode on over tourism. And this is exactly the two aspects. So it's place and, and time, So it's really good that you're tapping into that. and also you mentioned, ferry. So you do frame bus and ferries.
Anne: Do you, how do you select the ferries? Do you, because they're not always the most well sustainable option.
Paul Conroy: There.
Anne: you have criteria for that or,
Paul Conroy: So, so more the route and whether the route makes sense than anything else. so if customers need them, we will use them. [00:27:00] there's a couple of particular routes that we use quite a lot. So up in, Scandinavia, we work with a couple of suppliers who actually,Or for two night, I'm not gonna say cruise 'cause it's not cruise, but two night crossings because the crossing's quite long. And actually that's an experience in itself. So
Anne: Yeah, absolutely.
Paul Conroy: like you were saying before about the journey being part of the overall experience, like people come back and tell us that two night crossing was amazing, the things I saw.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: those are the kind of interesting experiences that people just wouldn't have if they flew directly to Stockholm or Copenhagen. Yeah.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely. But then do you take into account, sustainability? Like would there be any, area or crossing that you said, okay, we don't want to offer that specifically, or I.
Anne: not that I'm, not, that I'm aware of yet. we know that ferry crossings and. Some of the ships use heavy fuel. some of them are, some of them are less efficient than others. as with all parts of the industry, things are being modernized all the time. true. Yep.[00:28:00]
Paul Conroy: yeah, and things are improving all the time. and more and more companies are realizing that their audience is demanding that they make changes and that they improve their, their emissions. Ferry is absolutely there. so we are very happy to, we are very happy to offer ferry crossings to our customers. And what we do is we make sure that our customers know about emissions on each leg that they're taking.
Paul Conroy: what we do is we tell our customers in, in their trip, the carbon emissions, that their trip is contributing, and we can work that out from each leg in our database, having some carbon information.
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah. Could you calculate that through? you work with Eco Collective, right? Can you share a little bit more how you, how do you calculate that and also how do you communicate that? I think that's,
Paul Conroy: Yeah.
Anne: the issue.
Anne: so as I say, each leg in our database is tagged by its operator, most operators produce, per kilometer how much their carbon emissions are. And we are able to then work out how long that leg [00:29:00] is. I, I say leg. It's, London to Paris is a leg. we are able to work out how many miles that leg is, and therefore, from the transport operators,emissions data, we're able to. the carbon emissions of that leg per person. also able to use some information from defra, which is the, the UK's for,energy among other things, and explaining how this, these emissions are calculated. We're able to do the same for accommodation per country. So, and Ferry Lex we're able to get that information,from the ferry companies. So we're able to say to customers, this trip is costing,this much carbon. You are emitting this much carbon by doing this trip. we are also able to calculate what it would have cost if they'd either driven or if they'd have flown. So Yep.
Paul Conroy: we take the furthest place that they're going to, and we work out what it would cost in terms of emissions to fly to that place, or drive to that place. And then we're able to say to customers, if you had flown or if you'd driven, this is how much carbon you've used and therefore this is how much carbon you've saved [00:30:00] by traveling train or on ferry or on bus. Yeah.
Anne: And then do you feel that travelers are interested in or engaged with this sustainability data? Do you get feedback?
Paul Conroy: as I said at the start, we have, we definitely have this as some, with some customers. I wonder if it's, I wonder if it's becoming more of a hygiene factor. Like it's just expected I think customers know that traveling by train. pound for pound is gonna be, fewer emissions than flying.
Paul Conroy: I think customers by and large that. I don't know, honestly, I don't know if they are as interested in by how much. I think more often they'll be like, how do I make my connection in Paris? Like they're more concerned about those kind of factors. but of course it's part of. It's part of the conversation. And I don't think byway would be by way if there wasn't that sustainability angle. I just think that there conversations with customers, that's a bit of a hygiene factor. And actually what they really wanna know is [00:31:00] how many yards to my hotel? Is it from the train station?
Anne: Yeah, the practical side. But that's, I think what we've been, discovering as well also, through this podcast, but also through our work in general, is that there are so many travelers that care about sustainability, but they will not really see it as a priority of their travel decisions. But at the same time, they kind of expect it and they see it as added value.
Anne: But first of all, the experience has to be great and has to fit their needs. That's always the priority.
Paul Conroy: Honestly, I think that's the right analysis of the situation.
Anne: And then in your social media and your marketing, how do you balance this? Like how do you balance your sustainability messaging? 'cause you do, communicate a lot about that,
Paul Conroy: Yeah,
Anne: how do you, how do you balance it out?
Anne: We do. if you look at,take our Instagram for example, like we are really active on Instagram. It's, and it's lovely, I.
Paul Conroy: I think we've got something like 40,000 followers on Instagram. and it's a real mixture of how gorgeous this trip is. look at the views from this train and something around our impact [00:32:00] report.
Paul Conroy: We, we produce an impact report every April, And what we do is. of those numbers that we were just talking about, like the amount of carbon that our customers have saved and all that kind of stuff. how many times we've put a customer in a hotel that's locally owned rather than a chain.
Paul Conroy: Like all of like how many times we've avoided a hotspot, Like all of that is calculated and added up. And at the end of the year in April, we produce our impact report. And a lot of our social media is around the delivery of that impact report. And some of the, things that we've seen that came, that were teased out in the impact report become social media stories on their own,
Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Very tangible examples then. Very, yeah.
Anne: Like, I can't remember the exact number. 80% of our hotel stays last year. Were not in chain hotels. Right. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: of our hotel stays last year. Were not in, hotspots. so we were, able to exactly as you say, have these kind of tangible examples of what [00:33:00] sustainability means in terms of selling holidays of this type.
Anne: Yeah, exactly. And then do you notice like a difference between, engagement, when you mentioned sustainability explicitly versus, general user, stories.
Paul Conroy: I don't think so, actually. I think,
Anne: Okay.
Anne: I don't think we've noticed any particular trends in that. I think different stories, different posts do well in different ways. So sometimes a particularly lovely post about. A destination will do particularly well. And at other times it's a post around that's focused around, some sustainability aspect will do particularly well. There's so many factors that go into this. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: don't know, I dunno that we've noticed any particular, like social media trends about one or the other yet.
Anne: Okay. Yeah, Um, then what I also noticed on your website is that you have an L-G-B-T-Q Equality index,
Anne: So can you explain what the L-G-B-T-Q Equality Index is that you have, on your website and why it's so important for, for bioway?
Paul Conroy: Yeah. [00:34:00] So, something we've done quite recently actually. so we've partnered with, an organization called Eex, who've. Taken using some really good data,provided an understanding of destination and how, what's the right word? Friendly they are to different groups. we have a value within Byway that we like.
Paul Conroy: We have a bunch of values. but one of the values that's really central to who we are that the buy way should be for everyone. Irrespective of or sexuality or religion or age or disability or anything. byway should be for everyone. This kind of travel should be for everyone and everyone should feel safe. Everyone should feel safe wherever they go. the best way to feel safe is to know in advance what to expect. So, that's how we are working, with Equinex is understanding. which places are best for, and most friendly, to, to a diverse range of customers. and we are working really hard on that.
Paul Conroy: We're working [00:35:00] really hard. accessibility. So we have a lot of customers who come to us and say,I'm, I have some difficulties. I can't walk long distances. Or I'm in a wheelchair, or I'm blind, or I have trouble hearing, is this kind of tra travel suitable for me? and we are working really hard on making sure that we are by way available for everyone.
Anne: I think that's really good and also very important because I do think that if you have, such a disability that it might be challenging to travel by train or even feel that it's not, that's not possible. So I think that's really good that you're, you're focusing on that. and also regarding the.
Anne: ' cause I, I was looking at it and for example, Morocco score is quite low, as in, well, very low actually. but then is it kind of a dis encouragement for L-G-B-T-Q Travelers to go there? Is it kind of a recommendation or is it more like, okay, this is the information,
Paul Conroy: That
Anne: with it what you want? Okay.
Paul Conroy: it's providing information. So honestly, that's the best way to, that what you've said is the best way to think [00:36:00] about it. It's like awareness. It's like being aware of. local customs, local, s societal norms, where you might feel safe, where you might feel less safe and make decisions based on, make decisions based on having information.
Paul Conroy: I think that's the key thing that we want to this is,
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: doing and be aware.
Anne: So really raising awareness and just managing expectations and then having them decide what they, what want to do with it. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: Morocco,
Paul Conroy: It's so amazing, and I love the fact that we sell holidays as far as Morocco without flying,
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: it's
Anne: Yeah,
Paul Conroy: People travel all the way through France and all the way through Spain, staying at a few lovely places on the way, get the ferry over to Tania, travel around Barocco, which has got an amazingly good.
Anne: yeah.
Paul Conroy: rail infrastructure
Anne: Really?
Anne: It's an amazing trip. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: trip, but of course, if you are,a customer from one of these groups, there may be aware that,societal norms in Morocco are different to societal norms in Paris or in London or in
Paul Conroy: [00:37:00] Yeah.
Anne: It's all about raising awareness and like Yeah. Also can maybe influencing their travel behavior I think is kind of. Preparing them for, for the guidelines. Yeah. And then also speaking about influencing, I guess it's kind of the other way around, but does Byway have any influence on the expansion or improvement of European train networks?
Anne: Like, is there, do you have, do you have like any input or are they, are you asked for insights or?
Paul Conroy: Yes. No, it's a good question. So, so sometimes I get to speak at like events. sometimes, Kat, our founder, gets to speak at events and those events sometimes have an impact and we like to do more of that. We certainly feel that we have a voice and we certainly want to use that voice.
Paul Conroy: it's interesting, I often use the phrase we should be pushing at an open door, like with sustainability and trains and traveling this way, it should be an [00:38:00] open door and it's not. there's lots of, there's, there's lots of vested interest in travel, and the airlines are powerful and aviation is a really powerful, important, industry.
Paul Conroy: For many countries, it's quite hard to. Change that, and I dunno that we want to, but I think what we want to do is make sure that customers and the audience and the wider audience know you. You know what it is, right? the words travel and flights are synonymous. And
Anne: Yeah. Kind.
Paul Conroy: they don't need to be.
Paul Conroy: And that's the role that we want to play is the,as you said right at the start, like, we, our thing is to make flight free travel a mainstream option. that's where we see our value. So lots of the work that I do with partnerships is working with mainstream organizations,speaking events.
Paul Conroy: It's mainstream events. Like I spoke recently, the Abta, sustainability, convention. So, so that's a very mainstream audience, easy Jet and Jet Tour in there, right? so we want to be,raising the voice [00:39:00] of sustainable travel within mainstream audiences. yes, there might well be in our future,working with tourist boards and by extension governments.
Paul Conroy: yeah, to try and get this message across.
Anne: Yeah, No, I think it, you would have, you have all the knowledge basically, and the tools apparently to, to make this, change or to provide this insight. but what do you think is your biggest challenge in, in trying to achieve this?
Paul Conroy: two things. so one is I,I mentioned before the technology, the fragmentary nature of European rail. it technically is hard. I, say this quite regularly. I dunno if I should say it, but, I've been working for Byway for five years and I can see why nobody created a byway before and it's really hard, right? The tech, the technology side of it is really hard. And even five years down the line, we haven't cracked it. We've done really well and we've got loads of stuff done. We've got loads of stuff to do. like we were talking about booking horizons earlier, like that
Anne: Yep.
Paul Conroy: stuff is really hard to [00:40:00] overcome from a tour approach perspective.
Paul Conroy: So, so the first thing is technology is hard, we're done really well. The other thing is cost price. So,
Anne: Yep.
Paul Conroy: pound for pound, traveling by train is not cheaper than traveling an airplane. It's not. I recently traveled to Vienna by train for a conference, and I looked at the flights the flight time from London to Vienna is like one hour and 45 minutes or something that's really short. the flight with Ryanair was 50 pound return or something. I went on the train, had to stay overnight in a couple of places on the way there. Took a couple of days to get there and a couple of days back and cost times the amount, right?
Anne: but of course I experienced so much. the way there and different things on the way back and saw much more and had time to decompress from the conference and work on the train and like, I got so much more from it than just flying there, [00:41:00] flying out. Yeah.
Paul Conroy: so cost is an issue. And I dunno how we overcome that because by definition it's expensive. I'm not sure. Like, I think trains might be too expensive, like, as a thing. I think trains are probably too expensive.
Paul Conroy: But I definitely think flights are too cheap and I don't think, I don't think it's all right for Easy Jet and Rhine Air and whoever else to be, regularly selling flights at 30 pound. Like, I don't think that's helpful. and I don't, and I think that's where we need, if, and this is what I mean about pushing an open door. if we care about emissions and we know that aviation contributes to emissions, should we be encouraging more and more flying? doing those kind of marketing, doing that kind of
Anne: Yeah.
Paul Conroy: like, I'm not sure.
Anne: I'm not sure that long term, that's where we want this industry to be if we want to be a responsible industry that's actually taking, like care Actually in the Netherlands. They are, working on these [00:42:00] advertising codes that's no longer, allowed to share a certain unsustainable thing, for example, flying it's not allowed to, market, these aspects.
Anne: And I think that's a really good, first step in the right direction. and I think,
Paul Conroy: does well with this stuff
Anne: well it's an, an example for the UK to follow. but I also wanted to, to build on what you said about, your trip to, Vienna is that I can understand why business travel is still the majority of flights.
Anne: Because if you have an important meeting and then it's, of course, it's debatable if you can do that online, if you want to go there in person. But if you talk business, It's really not feasible to take four days to go for one event if you can go on the same day. So if you really talk about the money impact, I do understand why, and I think there's a lot that needs to be changed there
Anne: But that is one of the biggest issues, I think time, times money. And I think that's the,
Paul Conroy: I think the biggest barrier
Paul Conroy: I think that's true. I think there's a
Anne: I.
Paul Conroy: of businesses [00:43:00] now who are, becoming mindful of their impact as well.
Paul Conroy: and I really like this and I actually see this more from the kind of private sector than I do from kind of government top down stuff. You do see more organizations taking. More responsible, steps in terms of business travel. So either cutting business travel, saying that you can have a very good conversation like we have completely online, or that actually you can work on the train. Yeah,on that trip to Vienna, where I had good wifi, which honestly wasn't everywhere. but that's improving every day as well. I did quite a lot of work on the way there and on the way back. but listen, you, it's a difficult one and it's, gonna take some time for that to really cut through. It's, you are absolutely right. It's gonna take time. but this is a movement, right?
Paul Conroy: we are not, we're not flight shaming. We're basically saying, and actually. It's the most frequent flyers who have the biggest impact, which is a tiny proportion of people. it's not the people who [00:44:00] are traveling once a year for a holiday that matter. it's those that are flying frequently, and I'm sure you know this. if you take one fewer return flight to Europe a year, take more carbon than if you are a vegan for a year. One flight,
Anne: It's ridiculous. yeah, let's leave it at that, but yeah, that's ridiculous. I think what we said, like it's a movement and I think we're going the right direction, but there is still a lot of impact to be made.
Anne: it's been great to hear, what you've been doing at Byway. it's very inspiring too. find out what challenges you have, but also especially how do you make train travel, appealing and safe and reliable for travelers that once you experience travel a bit slower,
Anne: So Very interesting. Thank you so much for joining me
Anne: Thank you, Anne. Take care.
Anne: I hope you like that conversation as much as I did. There's a lot we can learn from companies like Bioway. It's so interesting to see how they successfully navigate the challenges of trained travel and making sustainability part of the story by default.
Anne: If you're enjoying [00:45:00] the podcast, like and share this episode and subscribe to our channel to not miss any of the upcoming episodes. Thank you for listening, and we hope to see you next time.