Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
In “Sustainable today, successful tomorrow” Anne and Rik (Good Tourism Institute) explore real-world sustainable tourism stories that actually work.
Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow
Is tourism using data the right way? 🫣
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In sustainable travel, data is often reduced to one thing: carbon.
But travel is about so much more than emissions. 🌍
What if we used data to understand overcrowding? Or to measure how tourism can support local livelihoods and preserve culture?
Because when used right, data can turn good intentions into real impact. 💪
In this episode of Sustainable Today, Successful Tomorrow, we explore how the tourism industry can use data to make travel more sustainable.
Through insights from Edmund Morris at Equator, we discuss how data can drive better decisions, empower smaller businesses, and show that sustainability is about more than carbon. 🌿
If you’re ready to look beyond the spreadsheets and see data as a tool for sustainable travel, this episode is for you. 🎧
How well are you communicating sustainability? Apply for our free Sustainable Marketing Scan 👇
https://goodtourisminstitute.com/scan/
Anne: [00:00:00] I always have felt that sustainability is so much more than carbon. I feel a lot of travel businesses kind of forget about this. So especially when it comes to data, they only talk about their carbon emissions, but they're forgetting about the social part or the environmental part.
Rik: And they're forgetting that. Travelers are not that interested in carbon.
Rik: Welcome back to Sustainable. Today's Successful Tomorrow, where we explore real world sustainable tourism stories that actually work. In today's episode, we're asking how can data make travel more sustainable?
Rik: We've had a conversation with Edmond Morris from Equator. We turn travel data into insights that help the industry make better decisions.
Rik: we'll share a few short clips from that conversation and we'll release a full interview next week. Oh, and just to be clear, this episode is
Rik: not [00:01:00] about carbon.
Rik: Okay,
Rik: let's start simple. Why should the tourism industry even care about data? It's an industry built on experiences, not spreadsheets. So where do you think data fits in?
Anne: Well, I think you're right, is built on experiences, but I do think that these experiences are, um, shaped, measured, and improved by data inside the tourism industry is.
Anne: Full of businesses that make a lot of claims, both sustainability claims as general claims, but without data, there's no way, well, to know if it's actually true. So I think data really gives the accountability and the transparency that we need to, well, to see if it's empty claims or not,To make sure that what they say their impact is actually true. I really think that data turns good intentions into genuine action that we can measure and like, should we even care about data?
Anne: Even if you don't wanna [00:02:00] use the data for your marketing to support your sustainability claims, it's so important to know that what you're doing, even if it's just for your own intentions That it's working and that you can pinpoint, okay, this is where I can improve. And I think that's the power of data that we need.
Rik: I suppose that's true though to me. It does feel like something that's happening quietly behind the screens and not something that travelers are a part of in most cases.
Anne: Yeah. I think that's also part of the strategy of travel businesses, and we've heard this before, it's like, I think a lot of businesses don't know how to use this data to communicate it in a way that appeals to the traveler.
Anne: Um, and if they keep doing it in a boring way. Yes. The traveler is not interested. so I think it's all about, okay, what data do you have? What are you doing with it? Mm-hmm. Both in, okay, how can I use this to improve and to how can I make this part of my, my sustainability story in a way that my traveler cares
Rik: Yeah. I fully agree. And normally this is [00:03:00] the part where we talk about our personal experiences with the topic. Yeah. But as far as data goes, I mean, there's not a whole lot of personal travel experiences that we can draw from, but. I do feel this is an especially interesting topic nowadays, so it's something that we really wanna explore.
Rik: And so as far as data goes, I'd say let's dive right in.
Rik: Let's do it.
Rik: So how exactly can data make travel more sustainable? I do feel that the industry focuses a bit too much on carbon, but sustainability goes so much further than carbon and admin has something interesting to say about that. So let's listen to a clip.
Rik: Yep. Let's do it.
Edmund: It's another thing that travel has gotten so wrong, which is that we obsess over emissions and there's always some industries like, you know, rightly kind of concerned about. Its its contribution to global CO2. Sure, that is definitely a problem and should be addressed, but a lot of that does [00:04:00] come from airlines and from accommodation sector.
Edmund: So, where I think travel does a terrible job is in talking about all the things it gets, right? Sustainability isn't just carbon. It could be things like water consumption, plastic waste, but it can also be social preservation, cohesion, fostering economic equality, combating or alleviating poverty so it doesn't do anywhere near enough, you know, conversation around that.
Anne: absolutely agree. I always have felt that sustainability is so much more than carbon. We've talked about that a lot before and I feel a lot of travel businesses kind of forget about this. So especially when it comes to data, they only talk about their carbon emissions, um, how much insight they have.
Anne: but they're forgetting about the social part
Rik: Yeah, definitely. And they're forgetting that. Travelers are not that interested in carbon.
How well are you actually communicating sustainability? [00:05:00] We see many travel businesses and destinations working hard, yet they still struggle to talk about it,
Anne: and maybe you feel the same. You're afraid of being seen as greenwashing, unsure what to share, or just not really connecting with your travelers.
Anne: We've been there with a lot of travel brands and we get how frustrating it is. So with years of experience in sustainable tourism and marketing, we've created something simple to get you started.
Rik: It's called the Sustainable Marketing Scan. You just answer a few quick questions. We'll take a look, and if it's a good fit, we'll invite you for a short call to go through your opportunities.
Anne: You can start today@goodtourisminstitute.com slash scam and turn uncertainty into a clear, compelling story.
Anne: No. But it's also that, like in just the entire picture of sustainability, that looking back in COVID times that, um, when we all stopped flying, all of a sudden there were so many reports on, how [00:06:00] many emissions we reduced, how good that was for the planet.
Anne: And it was, but I think what some of us or some businesses overlooked was. To what extent? poaching increase in Africa, and I think it really shows how interconnected everything is. That if you take away the visitor in Africa, for example, also takes away the funds. It takes away, jobs,
Anne: it takes away, uh, support for local conservation and for communities and. It really shows that I think we need to look at the positive impact that tourism brings. And I think that's what Edmund is saying as well. It's also about the social part. What are we doing right with tourism and how can we prove that?
Anne: so it's all about, okay, what can we do? What can we change? What positive impact can we actually create? and that, well, you can turn it into a credible story. And it's not just saying we are supporting local communities, but you're actually backing it up. Like, this is actually what we [00:07:00] do. Um, you can communicate this real impact, and use all of this knowledge to or to steer sustainable tourism and to genuinely make it a better industry.
Anne: I think that's very powerful.
Rik: Yeah, I completely agree. It's about so much more than carbon and I really like the thing about Edmond that he just says it as it is and he's not afraid to voice his opinion on this, and he has data to back it up so that that's, that's a good thing.
Anne: Yeah. Data lie usually.
Rik: Well, the interpretation of data
Anne: is Yeah, true.
Rik: Can be different. According to who's looking at it. And yeah.
Anne: And we see that really that in politics a lot that you can interpret data Yeah. In a way that you like it.
Rik: Yeah, of course. But if you look at the full picture, data should tell the full story.
Rik: Yeah.
Rik:
Rik: But coming back to, admin, I think. [00:08:00] He's totally right and the tourism industry is too much focused on carbon, even though most of it comes from flights and accommodations. And to me personally, the emissions part of sustainability has always been a bit boring. But I'm a marketer, of course. So
Rik: you like
Rik: the stories?
Rik: I like the stories and of course you can use data to back up your stories, but. I think the stories are just way more interesting and I
Anne: would, I think what we roven as well is that you need, if you just tell the stories without any support, it's empty. Like I think the combination is always good.
Rik: Yeah.
Rik: The combination is good. And I mean, carbon emissions are a big issue in the tourism industry and something that we shouldn't overlook, but it's just more than that. And, I think that by now we can safely say that even though travelers say they care, they don't always act on it, and they care more [00:09:00] about the experience than they care about their carbon footprint.
Rik: So I really like the idea focusing more on creating positive impact and less on minimizing negative impact.
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah. Wasn't it you that also said in an earlier episode is that if you minimize your. In a way that reduce it to zero, you're actually not there.
Rik: Yeah. It is a theory that if you have zero negative impact, so you have no carbon footprint.
Rik: You might as well don't live, but it's a bit dark.
Anne: Yeah. But I do think, like, the point of a story is, is that you can achieve so much more if you focus on contributing and creating positive impact elsewhere. Yeah.
Rik: Use, the impact you have to create a positive impact because you can make a lot more positive impact than you can minimize ne negative impact.
Rik: Yeah. Yeah, true.
Rik: But before we turn to the positive impact, there's actually quite a [00:10:00] big negative impact elephant in the room that I do feel we need to address, and that's overt tourism. And to me, overt tourism seems like something that should be measurable. And I think, again, admin had something interesting to say about that.
Rik: So let's listen to another clip.
Anne: Yep, let's do that.
Edmund: To make the case to businesses that they should take this seriously. We'll look at visitor experience and visitor sentiment data. So what are guests, what are customers saying about a place or hotel or an experience that relates to crowds or anything associated with over toys? So. Not to get too technical, nerdy about this, but you analyze several hundred thousand reviews and you look for like turns or phrases that you would associate with things like tourist trap or I got there early before it got too busy, or thank goodness I got up at 5:00 AM because by 8:00 AM it was packed and I could barely [00:11:00] move so I left.
Edmund: Those are all signals around over tourism, so even if they give it a four or five star. We're noticing crowds are a problem that are having to be planned around.
Anne: I think that's such an interesting and valuable way of measuring over tourism, basically, because I think, well, yeah, what he said, reviews are a really good indicator, to how people, uh, experience a place.
Anne: Because travelers want to have a good time, and if crowds hinder this or avoid them having a good time, I think it's a really important indicator to well either influence them to going somewhere else or to actually, or booking something else for them to go. what you said over tourism is a big issue.
Anne: Um, it impacts locals, it impacts the travel experience. And what I really like about including data in this, in this strategy is that it's no longer just based on. A feeling?
Rik: Mm-hmm.
Anne: Or a personal experience because like how often haven't you talk to someone [00:12:00] saying, oh, you shouldn't go there. It's way too busy.
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: And then you feel like, oh, I'll just find out for myself.
Rik: Yeah. Well these are still personal experiences, but Yeah. Like you said here, you so
Anne: many.
Rik: Yeah. If it's thousands,
Anne: yeah. Yeah. So if you can say like, okay, like X percent of travelers that went there did not have good time because of crowds. That is a pretty good indicator of, and a good argument to convince someone to make a different decision.
Anne: Yeah. And like in the end, travelers want to have a good time, and if someone tells me like, this is the data of people not having a good time, I would more likely to, well, to change my itinerary. I talked to a two operator a few weeks ago and she said that she got an argument from someone say, yeah, but on the pictures.
Anne: It looks like there's no one there. And I still like, yeah, but influencers go there at 6:00 AM like they go there right before it. Like sometimes they even have influencer slogs so that you can go in before it actually opens.
Rik: That happens.
Anne: [00:13:00] Yeah. For example, for temples or for, uh, highlights.
Rik: Sounds like a Bali thing.
Anne: I'm not sure if they do it a Bali though, but, I wouldn't be surprised, but like it gives you. A deceiving image of how a destination looks like. And, but it's also, you don't want to sell, for example, here in Bali, like no one's going to sell UD full of traffic. You're gonna share the pictures of the magical VI that it has, the jungle, the streets.
Anne: But you're not the monkeys. You're not gonna show how proud it's, of
Rik: course, but that's how it's always been. Right?
Anne: Of course. But I do think that. Having data to support your arguments, like why a good idea?
Rik: I think. It can be used as a good argument to, convince a traveler to make a different decision.
Rik: Yeah. Like you can easily say, I dunno, 50% of people visiting this and this, place found it too crowded. Yeah. And I can support that claim with. [00:14:00] Data. Yeah. And I have this incredible alternative.
Anne: Yeah.
Rik: Would you like to go there?
Anne: yeah. No, that's a really good point. I also think like it would be great, for example, here on Bali, like ud, a lot of people wanna go there just because like they have read about it.
Anne: So on Instagram, it would be so good to say like, okay, if you go to Uber, there's like a 60% chance you'll spend two or three hours in traffic. You want to do that? Go If you don't, here's this really great alternative.
Rik: That would be great data. I do see some issues with it, but yeah.
Anne: Also because the day like traffic here is so unpredictable.
Rik: Yeah. Traffic is unpredictable and I mean, It would be a great, great way to convince someone to make a different decision. And I think that data can really help in that sense.
Rik: Yeah,
Rik: and one of the good developments at the moment, I feel is that, like large data sets are becoming more and more available to smaller businesses because of ai, and that brings in a lot of opportunities.
Rik: And I mean. [00:15:00] Equator is a great one, but I feel that there's going to be more and more businesses and more and more ways to, get your hands on these big data sets and, being able to analyze them. I think that that just brings in a lot of opportunities. Yeah. But the next question is, what are you going to do with the data?
Rik: And that's really where creativity starts because you. Do need to have a sense of what are you going to do with the data? And I think you should look at, uh, data collection tools or AI tools for what they are. They are tools. So the, yeah, if I
Anne: replace anything here,
Rik: no. The first thing you need to think about is what are the challenges that I'm facing and can AI or data tools help me overcome these challenges instead of just looking at.
Rik: How can I use ai? How can I use data?
Anne: Yeah. But then gi let, can you give an example? Like what would be for you a good way [00:16:00] to, like, as a travel business, what do you think could be a challenge that you can sold with data, like with the tools that are available?
Rik: I think the example we just gave for overt tourism is a, is a great one.
Rik: If you are experiencing that your travelers are unsatisfied with a specific experience.
Rik: Yeah.
Rik: because of the crowds, uh, you can. Back that up with data. And you can also give them alternatives based on data. Based on data. Yeah. And of course it'll take some time, but as soon as you have these alternatives up and running, you can again collect data, like customer reviews about their experiences.
Rik: And you can ask them specifically like, we offered you this alternative. What did you think?
Rik:
Anne: I really like that it's focusing on like the personal aspect as well. So it all, all about the, the actual experience and the how you influence, better experiences basically. But I agree. I think it's a really, great development and opens a lot of [00:17:00] opportunities for smaller, businesses, and I think especially the smaller travel businesses that are so rooted in local communities that work with locals, that have this specific niche knowledge, authenticity as well, that if they.
Anne: Get more access to tools. Yeah. To identify, okay, this is what I'm doing and, but here I can make a little bit more impact. Or this is where I can do, better. I think if they get access to tools, then.
Anne: Teach them how to make more po positive impact in certain aspects that I think to be very empowering and maybe even more game changing for them that if than if the larger companies start to, to identify this.
Rik: Yeah, I think the larger companies already have their hands on these big reports and they can hire.
Rik: consultancy companies to do research and yeah, to use that. But for smaller companies, there are simply no budget for those kind of, uh, researches or big companies Yeah. who charge insane amounts for their research and their [00:18:00] reports.
Anne: I think it's great tools for measuring understanding. Yeah.
Anne: And improving. But you have to, Still think yourself.
Rik: Yeah, definitely. And, a different aspect to this is also storytelling. And I think that's something we should talk about a little bit more because data doesn't really convince travelers. it's the stories that inspire travelers.
Rik: So how can businesses turn data into engaging stories? Again, that's something Edmond had interesting things to say about.
Anne: Great. Let's listen.
Edmund: What is it about this place that is going to land or resonate with that traveler that is not going to be the UN SDGs, it's not gonna be B Core or travel life. It's much more likely that they want to be away from crowds. You know, they wanna be somewhere quiet. They want to be known that they're traveling to a place that only 350 people on average see a year.
Edmund: [00:19:00] That's cool. That's a great thing to know. You want to, you know, you feel good if you're traveling. Someone says, this tour you just completed helped preserve a language that is at risk of extinction. Amazing. I'm saving languages by going on vacation. That is awesome. So telling those stories and making sure that they are backed up by days hurt.
Edmund: Yeah. That's critically important, but the tourist doesn't need to see it unless they ask for it.
Rik: Yeah.
Rik: This is such an important point. your story should be front and center, and we said it before, but from a marketing point of view, it's so important to highlight what's in it for the traveler. Yeah. And it's brilliant if you can back it up with data, but.
Rik: I don't think I fully agree with admin here that the traveler doesn't need to see it.
Anne: No, I don't agree with that either.
Rik: You really need to think about how you are presenting it, because not all data will be interesting to a traveler, but I actually think that [00:20:00] he gave a pretty good example of how you could include data to make it interesting for the traveler, and that was the, the example that he just gave like.
Rik: Only 350 people a year see this place that immediately gives you a sense of exclusivity and luxury. that, that is really good from a marketing point of view. And as a marketer, I would love to have access to these big data sets. It's such a treasure for storytelling.
Rik: Because if you are genuinely making positive impact and data is telling you that you are, you can then think about like, how am I turning this into a story? And as a marketer, that is such a gold mine.
Anne: yeah. No, absolutely. No, it's, it's definitely, and we coming, we're coming back to this, uh, throughout all the conversation we had, it's all about what's in it for the traveler because they're not interested in booking a trip [00:21:00] just because, Talk about the boring data, how much emission they're going to save if they go on a bike trip, for example. And it only works if you have a story and it only works if you have, a really cool experience because, uh, I was actually working with a two operator a few years ago, and they did like this data driven storytelling.
Anne: And what they did is, for their safaris, for example. They have like these, analytics on, okay, we have protected X number of rhinos. We've created x number of jobs. Uh, we send so many kids to school, and you could really see like, because you were going on that safari, they put faces to, uh, the people.
Anne: They re put it into a tangible, personal way, which is a great approach. I really loved it. But this only works if your experience itself is really great. 'cause if you go on a safari that you did not really like, no offense, you're not gonna care about how many jobs [00:22:00] this created, not that much as that. It would be if you had an unforgettable experience.
Anne: Mm-hmm. Where you also feel that because of your trip, you're creating all this positive impact. And I think the data behind it, the stories behind it, make it more meaningful. But just because your experience was already great.
Rik: Do you remember how they presented this data? did you see it on a website or social media, or did they present it during the Safari?
Anne: um, they had it on their, uh, website and social media, but they actually also had it like in an interactive way. So you had videos of rangers introducing themselves,they had videos of following their work, et cetera. I think what they really did was to, they were made it personal because also on the website, uh, for example, the Rangers already introduced themselves, um, explaining about their work.
Anne: And then before the trip, I think they also already communicated which ranger you were going on Safari now. Same. So they made it personal. Yeah. And you, you really just really knew that [00:23:00] okay, you were going on that trip. We're going with John. John is an expert in. I dunno. A certain bird and that feels personal.
Anne: Yeah. And um, knowing that you are directly contributing to him. Saving or protecting
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: Rhinos or wildlife or, I think that's just a really powerful way of using the data to really show, okay, this is a tangible impact that we're making. Mm-hmm. And it's because of you as a
Rik: Yeah. Yeah. I think. That's such a good example of how you can use data, but also how you can use storytelling.
Rik: It's absolute discrimination like combination of storytelling and data because you really need to put a face to the data because you can say we create, I don't know, 50 jobs a year in this community, but if you say. We gave John a job and he really loves it because he's been into birds for his entire life.
Rik: Yeah. And he knows everything [00:24:00] about this region because he grew up here. Yeah. And next thing you're doing is you're going on a safari with John. Yeah. That, that, that is so powerful and that makes such a difference to how you present data versus using storytelling and using, using data as a combination.
Rik: but again, only works. If you're offering an amazing experience as well.
Rik: Yeah, that is,
Anne: it's always a combination. Yeah.
Rik: Yeah, definitely. if you can use storytelling and data to make travelers feel good about themselves in the process, do it. Yeah. Always do it because it's such an added value to the experience and it sells.
Rik: And in cases like this, the more you sell, the more positive impact you can create. So it's a win-win, win situation. people find it difficult for it to involve marketing as well because you are helping people and you are helping places, but in order to do that, you do need to sell.
Rik: Yeah. And the more [00:25:00] you sell, the more impact you can make.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely. okay. Again, there you can use data Yeah. And know like, Hey, what's working, what's not? Yeah. Like Dave, you can use data for anything to measure and improve. Yeah. Um, so let's use it for the better and let's use it for sustainable tourism.
Rik: Yeah. Unfortunately, I do think that we're not there yet in terms of these kind of data sets being available to every small company, but I do think that is something that we will see in the near future. But for now, I do feel that you do need the knowledge and you do need the skillset.
Rik: And if you don't have that in-house, it's going to cost you, even though it's becoming more and more affordable.
Anne: yeah, that's true. But I do think like there are so many developments going on that it's, we have the right people focusing on using AI for the better that. I think it, it, it's going to be more accessible.
Rik: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And before we wrap up, I do want to mention some negative sides [00:26:00] about, AI data collection, which I feel are important, because you do need to do it in a professional way. If you are just using, I don't know, check GPT for your data, you absolutely need to make sure that your sources are right because.
Rik: AI can get the facts completely wrong, and it will be incredibly difficult for you to get your credibility back if you have it wrong with your data. So you always need to double check your data, always need to double check your sources and always keep in the human factor because you can't rely on AI only.
Anne: No. No, I think there's a big risk of false evidence or, yeah, wrong interpretation. I think Edmund mentioned an example of, where he was redoing calculations with Judge Patie or with an AI tool where he had like a completely different outcome than a calculation. A Yeah. Official report.
Anne: And then it turned out that's [00:27:00] all he was using. calculate it per minute instead of per hour, for example. Like you have to be so. Well informed on
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: How certain calculations are made to instruct AI to do Its same. Yeah. so you need to have all that knowledge, but I do think that for the basics, measurement improvements, it's such a good tool to, to start.
Rik: Yeah. I feel like there's an important distinction to make when we say AI because. When we say AI nowadays, it's usually based on the large language models. Yeah, those are language models. And uh, like
Anne: Jet GPT?
Rik: Yeah, like Jet GPT. And, uh, admin will go into this in detail in our interview, but. Those models are language models.
Rik: They're not mathematical models. You're a spring
Anne: to do math. No.
Rik: and that's why, data collection and data analyzing [00:28:00] through
Anne: Yeah.
Rik: Language models Yeah. Can cause problems.
Anne: It's like asking like a lit professor to uh, do your math homework.
Rik: Yeah, exactly.
Rik: Okay.
Rik: Alright, let's wrap up. And if I have to sum it up, I would say that data helps turn assumptions into insights. It's not just about carbon, it's about culture. It's about place, it's about people. And hopefully in the near future it will empower like small, uh, responsible travel businesses, in their, operations.
Rik: And lastly, it's not about replacing stories for statistics, it's about backing your stories up with credible data.
Anne: yeah, exactly. I think that's a very solid summary and I'm quite excited for the movement of using data beyond Carbon. I think Edmund also said like the tourism industry is quite behind on using data.
Anne: And I think it's quite a [00:29:00] time that we step it up and put data to better use, uh, because it's such a powerful tool to steer positive impact, um, and to steer sustainable tourism in general. Edmund also talked about one of his analysis he did in Jordan, which really stuck by me because every time we talk about AI now for the better, I used his example.
Anne: so he did an analysis on, a tour operator in Jordan, and he identified that there was this one area that was kind of overlooked and all the transfers, just bypass certain villages. Mm-hmm. this one side complaints about travelers being in a car for so long and then he identified like a few villages and what they did was, uh, add a lunch stop.
Anne: So on the one hand you have travelers who have a break who can experience, um, a local lunch, but at the same time they really boosted local economic benefits. And just like with one small change Yeah. Between. they create a lot of more positive impact in, [00:30:00] in their tours. And I think that is using data for the better and actually love that example.
Rik: Yeah, that's an an amazing example. I mean, a bus of tourists with just a lunch can make a big difference in such a small community.
Anne: Yeah, I think a lot of people underestimate. Underestimate that, the power of this visit.
Rik: Yeah.
Anne: so yeah. And I, that's, that's using data for Good.
Rik: yeah, definitely.
Rik: And I do really want to mention that I feel that they are doing such an amazing job at Equator at the moment, and I'm really impressed with everything he told in the interview.
Anne: yeah. No, I think, um, yeah, the HQ is gonna be great.
Rik: Definitely tune in.
Anne: Definitely tune in. Okay. Let's wrap up. Okay.
Anne: Thank you so much for listening, and as mentioned, stay tuned for next week's episode where we'll release a full interview with Edmund. In the meantime, do let us know how you're currently using data, but also how you would like to use it Would last to hear your input. If you like this episode, feel free [00:31:00] to like and share it.
Anne: And if you don't want to miss any future episodes, don't forget to subscribe. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
Rik: Bye.