B+ with Krista Gregg

How Art Therapy Heals: A Conversation with Muralist and Art Therapist Becca Joy

• Bright Sky House • Season 1 • Episode 2

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In B+, host Krista Gregg sits down with people who’ve faced life’s messiest, most meaningful moments—and kept going. From unexpected struggles to hard-won growth, each guest shares what they’ve learned about resilience, purpose, and the power of real connection.

This podcast doesn’t promise perfection. It celebrates the process.

Produced by Bright Sky House — bringing hidden stories to light.

Episode Summary

In this conversation, Krista Gregg and Becca Joy discuss the transformative power of art and art therapy. Becca shares her journey as a traveling muralist and art therapist, emphasizing the importance of creative expression in mental health. They explore the process of art therapy, its benefits, and how it can help individuals connect with their emotions and heal from trauma. The discussion also touches on self-care, finding a qualified art therapist, and the significance of creating space for personal creativity.

Takeaways

  • Art therapy combines mental health techniques with creative expression.
  • The process of creating art can be more important than the final product.
  • Art can serve as a powerful tool for healing and self-discovery.
  • Self-care should be about creating space for what you need.
  • Art therapy can benefit anyone willing to participate.
  • Visualizing progress in art can boost self-esteem and confidence.
  • Art can help externalize trauma and provide new perspectives.
  • Finding a qualified art therapist is crucial for effective therapy.
  • Creative practices can provide moments of quiet in a noisy world.
  • Art can be a less intimidating way to explore difficult emotions.

Mental Health Resources

  • 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Call or text 988 for free, 24/7, confidential support for mental health crises, suicidal thoughts, or emotional distress.
  • Find a Therapist: Search for licensed therapists near you through directories like Psychology Today, TherapyDen, or Mental Health Match.
  • Join a Support Group: Connect with others through peer-led or professionally facilitated support groups via NAMI or GriefShare.

Stay Connected with B+

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YouTube: Bright Sky House Official
LinkedIn: Bright Sky House

If you have questions or would like to follow-up with any of our guests, reach out to Hello@BrightSkyHouse.com.

B+ is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Hi everyone, this is Krista Gregg and welcome to another episode of Be Positive. Today's episode is one I've been looking forward to sharing. I am joined by Beckett Joy, a travel muralist and certified art therapist who brings so much light and intention into the world through her work. We talk about the power of creative expression, how art can be more than just a hobby or talent, but a tool for healing. Back in. what art therapy really looks like, how it helps people connect to emotions they may not even have words for, and why creating space for your own creativity can be such an act of self-care. Whether you're someone who's always been drawn to art or someone who thinks, no way, I am not creative, this conversation is a gentle reminder that expression belongs to all of us. And whether the artwork is wall worthy of hanging, or something you just do in the moment, it can certainly be a tool for healing. We hope you enjoy. Hi, it's so good to see you. It's been so long. How are you doing? Yeah, how are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Getting through the week. It's a Wednesday that we're recording this. it feels, it already feels like it should be a Friday. How's your week then? All there seems like there's not enough days in the week, getting things done and preparing for my next trip. before I, I want to dive in because I know exactly what you do. But really quick, give us a brief introduction. Who are you? What do you do? What are you passionate about? And everyone, this is Becca Joy, and I will give you a little hint here. She is an amazing artist. Yeah, so I'm Becca. currently am a traveling muralist and mostly landscape painter, but I really love painting all types of things. But I'm also a trained art therapist and mental health counselor and have worked in that profession since I graduated grad school in 2017. So I'm not currently practicing, so I'm focusing on the art and the travel. It takes a lot of time, but I just love doing both and enjoying both professions. And how did art come into your life? When did that, when did the epiphany happen where, my gosh, I'm, I am talented and I could do this, or I love this and I'm going to get better at this. What, what happened in that moment? That's a really great question. think um I always loved being creative ever since I was a little kid and would always kind of just want to be designing things or just playing with the art materials. um I remember a specific moment in high school that I was just really drawn to art and I thought, you know, I just, really want to be able to draw. So I remember sitting in my room and just sketching all the time. And I just carried a sketchbook around high school all the time. Then I think I Departed from it a little bit because I had this sort of innate desire just to help people and I thought you know when I went to college I got to myself. What could I do that would be the most helpful? I think as I've gotten older I've realized that We are the most helpful when we're doing the thing we're meant to do whether that's an obvious altruistic profession or not But at the time I was like doctor. It's to be a doctor. So I went to school. I got my degree in biology minored in art because I always loved it. And it was my senior year of college that I really started to think about what I wanted to do. And I sort of revisited uh the idea of doing art therapy. I changed my track my second semester, my senior year of college. And I remember doing um a painting class that was really, I think about it all the time still because I had a lot of freedom in that class. And I think It was my first real introduction to the power of art and healing in a mental health way. Um, because I know at that time there were things that I was sort of processing that I just really didn't have the word or the audience for, to be honest. And I remember really painting these paintings as a way to express the things that I didn't have any place for. And I think that was a really good sort of premonition for me as to how that was going to start looking in my professional, um, life. So. Then I went to grad school to be an art therapist. amazing so you can find both worlds. Do you still have some of the original art that you created and do you look fondly back on it and you know what what what what what blah blah blah what do those pieces look like? So I actually really didn't like any of them. oh It's really funny. Actually, no, that's not true. There was one of them that I did really like that I was really proud of. um And I had a whole commentary around it. I probably never even really shared it, but um I don't have any of them that like where I'm living now. They do still exist in the world, but um I think that also is such a good representation of art therapy and just the therapeutic route of art. Those pieces I made were healing in their own way, even though I didn't like the product of them. And so they were not something I was ever going to hang. I kind of cringe when I had to show them to people. But except for one, there was one that I liked. But the point of it wasn't, let me make this beautiful piece of art. um put it in a gallery. The point of it was let me practice my art skill because it was a class. And in doing that, I think the thing I want to focus on is telling my story in a way that I don't have to verbalize, but it still gets put out there. m Well, and you as an artist are evolving over time. I think I'm sure back then when you were studying, you never thought that you'd probably get into murals and do these ginormous spaces inside or outside um and travel the country painting murals all over the place. Yeah, and my wildest dreams maybe, but not in my plan, no. And that's the thing too, I guess, I look back on those pieces and I think, wow, there's so many things I would do differently if I were approach them now. But even that is such a cool thing, right? Cause it's such a good representation of growth. And I can look at that and say like that provided little Becca with what she needed at that time. So that makes that piece good. But if I were to do it again, I would do it differently, partially because I'm a better artist, but also partially because those things that I was painting about, I look differently on now. And that's something that I would do as an art therapist. Maybe I'd see a client in the beginning of our time together and it might be, let's paint a representation of something that you're going through. And then maybe... you know, six months later, we're revisiting that topic with paint representation and the thing that they're going through. And then you can compare those images and see how much differently their perspective has changed on it or if they're receiving anything differently from that artwork based on the work we did together or their experiences since then. And so that it just provides an extra language. And that was where my connection to art therapy really made it make sense to me, I think. love that. how do you, so for anyone who hasn't really explored art therapy before, how do you define it? What is it and what is the process of someone going through art? Yeah, no, that's a great question because it's really misunderstood, I think. So art therapy is an integrated mental health profession. So we are trained in mental health disorders. We're trained in all types of techniques. We just use art as an additional tool. So we're going to use art to facilitate the creative process and help people. build resilience, to connect with themselves, to connect with other people, to facilitate positive change. And that can look like um so many different things. Like positive change is such an abstract thing to say, but you know, it can be, I feel differently about this thing that happened to me, or I understand this thing that happened to me better, or I'm more willing to do XYZ in my life because I'm no longer getting in my own way, or, you know, insert positive change here. um I think uh a big part of it is really building self-awareness, building coping skills, building social skills a lot of the time. it's just, the art can be such a powerful tool when used in an educated way. So do you give anyone that you're helping when you were doing art therapy, do you give them a prompt or is there a topic and they can use whatever medium of art they want or can it be a Picasso-like piece or can it be a still art or something from their imagination or a dream? Does it really range from all the different types of ways to look at it? Anything you can imagine, yes to all the above. It really depends on the client and what their need is. I guess really part of our training is to really be able to identify that and to say, know, if someone's coming in and they're extremely distraught and they're just like, you know, really unstable emotionally, then I'm not going to give them something that's like, a really messy, fluid media. I'm just not going to do it because it's going to overwhelm them. It's going to kind of be this over sensory thing that is not going to help them feel safe. And so in that situation, I'm going to be really a lot more structured. I'm going to give them something that's going to help them ground. And it's really intentional to say, Hey, like you're really overwhelmed. We need to get you back in this present moment. And maybe I would use something like um clay, like literal ground to ground somebody. I'm right. use something like a really structured material, like a colored pencil or a crayon. I am a painter, so I gravitated a lot towards paint, but if I'm doing that with a client like that, then it's going to be something like water colored. It's not going to be really messy. Right. It does, again, it needs to be really safe and contained because that's what we're trying to do with the feelings. We're trying to contain them, not like make them come out because they're already out. If it's the opposite and somebody's coming in and like, you know, You have a child, um you know probably how it goes when they don't want to talk about something. Hey, how was your day? It was fine, you know. How are you feeling today? I don't know. And so if I get a client like that, I'm going to probably give them something that is really expressive. So we might do something like finger paint or sponge paint or something like that where the art can help do the work to get some of those feelings out. How important is it to have projects? I'm imagining as we're talking, my daughter, when she's having these emotional moments, she actually really thrives in having a project and each day working towards a goal of whether it's finishing a painting or a drawing or creating a costume out of paper. Having a goal and taking a few days to achieve something seems to help calm her down over time as well. Yeah, for sure. It also can really build a sense of mastery. So, you know, we see a lot of people in therapy with, you know, low self-esteem or low confidence. And if they can accomplish a goal or make something and see it from start to finish, uh that can really help build that self-esteem and sense of mastery. But you're right. I mean, it can be really cool to see a project from start to finish and come back to it every week. I think it really depends on the client because, you know, some people can get bored with things really easily or a lot of the time I would see someone one week and the next week maybe they have a totally different issue that feels like it's the most important thing and so it doesn't make sense to go back to the same project. um But it really depends. Both have happened. I I've worked a couple months on the same project with someone before and that worked really well. And then there's other times we start a project and we don't finish it because it's no longer relevant. It's like... whatever happened in that session was what needed to happen for the healing for that thing. And it didn't make sense to go back and reopen that wound, you know? So I think em to build on your previous question, sometimes the art therapy can be really directive and really project oriented and really like, here's a prompt. This is what you're going to do. And other times it can be really open-ended where it's like, here's materials. Do whatever you feel like you need to do. And sometimes It's not even necessarily air materials. Sometimes people will use like, on objects and make a sculpture. And um it's really cool when that's something that comes from their environment. And then they can bring it into the Cereburium and, you know, make something that maybe came from a place that wasn't great. And then they can kind of use that to make it into something new. there's a lot of really cool things that can happen within those processes. I love it. um Can you share with me examples or stories of some of the biggest transformations you've seen with people who have taken on art therapy? Yeah, I'm going to be careful about how I talk about this because of, you know, I protect the clients and their confidentiality and things. But I think a lot of the times, I guess, when I was thinking about this, two things kind of really came to mind. One, a lot of the times in therapy, it's very slow progress. And that's the case of all therapy or any, really any change, right? Things happen over time. And sometimes in my experience, when they happen that way, it becomes more sustainable because it's not like this magic trick that just fixed everything. And then now you have to establish a whole new routine and stick to it. All these things it's over time, these little changes are happening to where you look back and you're like, wait, I didn't realize I got this far. And it's that one step at a time type thing. So I think the cool thing about art therapy is, is being able to see the progress visually where like I had a client. I've done this a few times actually where we might do a similar art directive throughout our time together. And at the end of our, like maybe when they're ready to stop seeing me or whatever it is, we might look at that body of work. And it's really cool to be able to see, wow, this is something I made when I first got here and this is the thing I'm making. And it's not about, oh, my art got so much better. It's, wow, I noticed that I'm using a lot more color now than I used to or I'm a lot more confident in the kinds of mark making on these I'm making or, wow, I used a lot more paint this time than I did before. Like I was really timid before or something like that. um So you can see that kind of connection with self. You can see the confidence build and that's, that's really special to witness that because it's not me saying, Hey, look at how much better you are. It's the client being able to visually see like, this is the progress that I made because of the hard work that I did. And that's the most gratifying thing. success here is being defined not, is this a great piece of art? And did you represent it properly? I am fascinated by the way that they create the artwork is really, it's the journey, it's the process of how they put it together with either confidence or color, as you said. That's fascinating to me. The end result isn't what matters. It's how you get there. And I think that's such a great metaphor for life as well. A lot of times it's not about reaching the top of the mountain, it's the journey up and the pitfalls and ups and downs. And as simple as, or not, I mean, I don't even want to say it's simple. Creating art, whether it's hard or not, um every step of that has its own representation emotionally, especially in art therapy, it sounds like. Well, definitely, for sure. And that's, I guess, leads into the other success story or transformation. Sometimes you have these moments in therapy, but you get to see these aha moments. so sometimes, I don't know what it is, if it's just like the stars align or what it is, but sometimes you pick the right directive, the client's in the right headspace to do it. They're super willing and they get exactly what they need out of it. And that's not every session. And it took me a long time to realize, like, cannot expect that of myself and I cannot expect that of my clients. But when that does happen, it truly does feel like magic because it's like, you know, you have this really beautiful conversation around it and you can see the client kind of regain the hopes that maybe they had been looking for. Just being able to see it out in front of them gives them a new perspective on just how much they're actually carrying and just knowing like, oh, no wonder I feel anxious and overwhelmed all the time. there's 1,000 things on my plate. it's like verbally, sometimes people can know that. But to really visually see all the things that they're trying to carry, it's like, wait, why am I expecting this of myself? Like I would never hand this plate to someone else and say carry it. Right. You know? Yep. I love that. I love that so much. And it really honors the process too. um And it creates those, I guess it gives you grace too as a therapist. Like everybody is different. Some people will have a quicker success. Some people it'll be slower. I mean, can anyone do art therapy? I suppose the answer is yes, but is there, depending on what you're struggling on, is art therapy more appropriate or more helpful for people struggling with certain things versus others? I think the biggest indicator of success in art therapy is the willingness to participate. And that's true with therapy in general, really, but it is, I mean, really anyone can do it. And I've seen someone who's really good at art struggle with art therapy because they want to make something really pretty. And then you kind of miss the point in the process. Then I've seen people who really would not identify as an artist. really thrive in art therapy because they really have bought into the process. They're able to discuss um the themes around what they're making in a way that they're using it as a tool to converse and not as a means to an end. And that's kind of audience. also seeing people who are really good at art, thrive in art therapy. And it all just depends on what you're bringing to the table in terms of your motivation and your willingness to do it. Totally makes But I wouldn't say also with any like particular um like, you know, challenges or, you know, trauma or disorders, diagnoses, whatever. uh I wouldn't say that there's many that I can think of off the top of my head that wouldn't be appropriate. I think art therapy can really benefit anybody. Yeah, no, I love that. And I think so too. even, um like the rise to more when you go to a bookstore or I mean, you can buy this stuff on Amazon with course, but those adult coloring journals where if you just need a moment of clear focus and to just block everything out and just disassociate and just draw, I feel like there seems to be an uptake in. acknowledging that part of it's almost like a meditation in drawing and in coloring and creating something. Have you noticed that as well in terms of just more acceptance into the art side of mental health? Definitely. I mean, on one hand, the rise of the covering book has made everyone think they're an art therapist. I can't knock it because it does have so much value. yeah, I mean, I think humans in general are really craving quiet. Like our world is so overstimulating. And if you think about it, you're constantly expected to be available for somebody or something. And pretty much our most quiet moment of the day is in the shower. And it's where most people do their best thinking, ironically. So it's really hard to connect with ourselves and kind of our spiritual selves, whatever that looks like for you, in the society that has been created. You know, we're constantly stimulated by something. And so I think engaging with an art practice or a creative practice can really provide an opportunity to connect with yourself and have a moment of quiet in a world that we so desperately needed in. Absolutely. And talking about, how does someone go about finding someone who is licensed and really fully trained in art therapy? How in their area, what's the best way for someone to go and find an expert that can help them? So what you really want look for is somebody who has an ATR, to register art therapist, and that is our credential. Okay. There are some states that do have a art therapy license and that is also valid. Not all states have like a state license for that. It's a little bit confusing. But if you look for an ATR or an ATRVC, that person has training to be an art therapist. That person likely has a master's degree or maybe even PhD in art therapy. If you go to the American Art Therapy Association website, I do believe they have a find an art therapist tool where you can look in your specific area. So that would be my advice for anyone who's looking to do art therapy. Awesome. And I know you get paid to do some incredible artwork. Do you also practice and do things for yourself on the side? And if so, what do you do for yourself? That is a great question. um Is one of my goals this year? I was going wait. he was like done at the end of the day. No, not at all. I really, I love it so much. think um when I'm painting for work, it feels different than when I'm painting for myself to some degree, um because there's a different level of pressure. And also, like sometimes you don't get to decide what you paint when you're painting for someone else. But I think I'm trying to get better about finding those women so quiet too. And that's one of my big goals this year for myself because I'm guilty of it too. You know, we get lost in the shuffle and we have our goals. And when you're really motivated and and ambitious person, you end up putting yourself on the back burner a lot of the times. And I saw that a lot with my clients. And it's time I take my own advice and find those quiet moments and start doing the things I like to do. So yes, to answer your question, I do like to do some painting for myself. tend to, I guess I gravitate a little bit more towards watercolor when I'm painting for myself just because it's accessible. It's a little bit easier with. I don't have the, it's a silly barrier, but the barrier of getting the paint out of the tubes, gets me every time. So if I don't have to do that, then I'm more likely to do it. And that's, that would be a big piece of advice for somebody who's trying to do more self care is, you know, figure out what your barriers are. And if you can remove some of them, you're more likely to do it. I'll even say right now, it feels like a lot every time my daughter says, I want to do an art project. And all of a sudden she's grabbing markers and I see a Sharpie and then paint. And I'm thinking our dining room table is going to be destroyed. So now I need to get boxes or I need to get some sort of uh construction type paper and tape it over. And it sounds so silly. It takes five minutes, right? Maybe 10. if I have to break down boxes. But it is a mental just, okay, fine, I want you to do art, but now I have to protect everything because I can't trust you and this is going to be a big mess and are you going to clean it up? And creating a way, I've seen a few friends where they have in their kitchen or at the end of one of their tables, it's like a giant roll of paper that they just pull out, cut it off, and it's there. And that is it. And then when they're done, they wrap everything up and they throw it away. It is the best system. I've been, I need to create it. And I think just to your point, eliminate the barriers, no matter how big or small, because when it comes to doing it, um I can come up with a million excuses. I'm really good at that. Why not to do it? And um the less, the less barriers, the less excuses and reasons not to, I suppose. Exactly and most of the more often than not once you're in it whether it's something you really want to do or not it once you're doing the thing It's usually harder to stop doing it than it is to keep doing it. Yeah Well, and once you, I mean, it's like a workout. I mean, it's exercise for your mind in a lot of ways. Once you get the first one done, I feel like your body starts craving it a little bit more. It feels good. Yeah, no, yeah, I mean, you're teaching your brain that this is a good thing for me. This is something I like, you know? So what should people do? their artwork if it is not wall hang worthy or something they want to make public but they still want to keep creating. Um, know, there's so many different things you can do. I have always been a big advocate of art journaling because you have a little, if you're doing art for mental health and it's not something you really want people to see, there's a sense of security and safety and even just groundedness to contain that in that place. So having a journal for that can be really nice. Um, but you know, it doesn't just have to be, again, I'm a painter. I gravitate towards painting. I like that, but it doesn't have to be, um, like traditional visual art, you know, like a lot of people really, I had a lot of clients who really loved to crochet, you know, and to knit or to embroider, you know, because that's something that sometimes feels less intimidating than, well, I'm not a fine artist. What am I going to do? Like, how am going to paint? You know, or I just really don't know how to draw. Like, how am I going to draw? I feel? And it's like, you're going to get that same kind of present grounded, like meditative experience. This quiet time with self, if you're engaging with a fiber art that you would like you were to give you with other material. You know, I am so guilty of just thinking of this as drawing or colored pencils or crayons. I mean, there are so many different ways that you can express yourself. I mean, even writing, I'm wondering, could creative writing be a different form of art or journaling or... my mind's going down, making music or sewing or whatever. I guess the idea of art therapy, there are so many different ways that you can categorize that. Yeah, I've had a client write a song one time for a project. And I just want to do that as part of their own self-care. I personally love journaling and writing poetry. That's probably something I even do more often for myself and painting just because I'm painting for other people so often. And it's accessible. It's easy. There's not a barrier there. I can pick up a journal and then I can pick up my phone and write a note, you know, to myself in journal. But even something like going on a nature walk and picking out something that you like from that nature walk. Maybe you see a rock that really speaks to you and then you bring it home and you have this thing that grounds you and it's this little piece from your peaceful walk and then maybe you decide to paint it or write a word on it that means something to you. And so it doesn't have to be like this really structured or boxed in thing. And I think that... Sometimes when we think about self care or even just connecting with ourselves, especially at beginning of the year, we get so caught up in routine and there is nothing wrong with routine. But a lot of times it becomes a sort of like all or nothing thing, which is why most people quit their goals by like the second week of January. Yep. And they're not realistic about it. I know myself well enough to know that my schedule is so inconsistent that if I said, well, my self care is going to be our journaling every day, it's never going to happen. But I think what it really is is like paying attention to what you need at any given moment and then finding space for that thing. that's important to create attainable goals. Don't try to be superwoman and say you're going to do something every day or this is if it's once a week, if it's twice a week, whatever your schedule, then your energy will allow. Creating attainable goals will set you up for success. Like there are some moments where I feel like I'm working on a project or I'm doing something with my daughter and I'm thinking, why am I so stressed? Why am I rushed? And who created this deadline? Who created this? Oh, wait. I did. Why am I not moving that? It's okay to extend things. It's okay to move the deadline or the finish line um or adjust if it's too much. If what you are trying to do to give you peace creates stress for you, it's completely going to create the opposite effect. You need to be able to know your boundaries, know yourself, and create something attainable. Yeah, for sure. think sometimes a good way to think about that is not adding your self-care, the thing you're doing to soothe yourself, as not as something else on your to-do list, but rather something you're going to make space for. And so it's more of, it's not about limiting your time. It's not about limiting yourself. It's about expanding yourself. And I think just even that mindset shift can help remove that barrier too and that stress around. doing the things that are good. That is so powerful. not about eliminating yourself, it's about expanding yourself. It's not like a to-do, it's something that you're doing for yourself. I think that is just so powerful to get right there. Thank you. I think something that has helped me. I'm very guilty of making to-do lists and feeling a lot of stress around them because they're always very long. And if I have to add my thing I'm doing for myself to that to-do list, it's going to go at the bottom because it feels less important even though arguably it might be the most important. Yeah. But if I'm thinking about it less of adding to the to-do list and more creating space for the thing, it feels easier to do. I feel like this is the perfect spot to just say, you guys, if you're interested at all in picking up any type of medium or drawing or writing or photography, anything creative in your life, there is an opportunity out there for you to create that space and get those mental health benefits and just really explore how you're feeling through creativity. And Becca, you are such an inspiration and thank you for all you're doing in the art space. If anyone has any questions, for Becca, wants to learn more about some of the art she's doing, needs an art mural, which by the way, she is an amazing follower on Instagram at Becca Joy Fine Art. will see some of her incredible projects. But her website is also beccajoyfineart.com and you can reach her there as well. But I just thank you so much. Is there anything we haven't covered that you want to make sure people take home? This might feel kind of random, but I know it was kind of one of the questions you had thought about prior to our conversation. Yeah. And I think it's a really cool thing just for people to know, um especially following some of the other conversations I know you're having through this podcast. um as much as art can be used to help with everyday things, these everyday stresses, It is transformative with trauma too, and it is biologically transformative because trauma is stored in a sensory somatic way, meaning that it's stored emotionally, it's stored in the body. I mean, probably all heard body keeps the score, but it is also stored visually. And there's research that says that experiencing trauma can really impact your declarative memory, which is why it can be so hard for people to talk about it. And sometimes we don't need to actually be able to tell the story, but we do need to externalize it. And sometimes just by doing some kind of art around it, working with an art therapist, of course, this is not something I recommend you do by yourself at home, but em sometimes even just working through it with an art therapist through the art can give a client a level of understanding or a new perspective or the license to move forward in a way that talking about it can be really difficult to achieve. And I just want to say that because I know that things are really heavy in the world. And um there's a lot of things, a lot of pain, a lot of suffering that is really hard to witness and to obviously experience. But I think we're all subject to a high level of um stressors and information and really hard information all the time. um if you're doing these things at home, if you decide to start doing a practice and that's helpful, that is wonderful. If you start doing this practice and you think I could use an extra support and or an extra helping hand to figure all this out, I really encourage you to do it because, you know, that there's no shame in seeking extra support and it can really be so transformative and just, I know I always felt so honored to walk that space with people and I know the EF therapist would too. So I just encourage you to do that if that feels right for you. I think it's so important and there are so many people that as you're talking, I'm just, anyone in my client list that I've helped with crime and trauma scene cleaning, anyone that we're interviewing with she diaries. And I want to echo too, trauma and grief, it of course hits hard in that moment, but it stays with you for years. And um even if it's been several years since something incredibly overwhelming has happened to you. m There is never a bad time to explore and think about those feelings and to face them through art, especially. It can be incredibly healing. uh It's maybe sometimes less scary way to tell your story when you're not really verbalizing it. Yes, you don't have say it, you don't have to try to comfort someone else while you're saying it, you can just be present for yourself. Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Becca. I really appreciate your time today. I'm glad you reached out. Everyone, go to beccajoyfineart.com and check her out and reach out if you guys have any questions. Thank you so much for having me.