35: In-Laws or Out-Laws? — Dealing with Their Family After You Move On

Episode 35: In-Laws or Out-Laws? — Dealing with Their Family After You Move On

Moving forward after loss isn’t just about you—it can shift every relationship connected to your past. In this episode, Jamal and David tackle one of the most complicated dynamics widowers face: navigating relationships with in-laws while building a new life.

They share their personal experiences—from deep bonds that continue to grow, to relationships that have changed or become more distant—and unpack the emotional reality behind it all. Why does moving forward sometimes feel like betrayal? Why can new relationships trigger tension? And how do you honor your late spouse while still choosing happiness?

This conversation dives into boundaries, family expectations, loyalty tests, and the quiet pressure that can come through children and new beginnings. Whether relationships with in-laws strengthen, shift, or fade, Jamal and David remind listeners that healing isn’t a group decision—it’s personal. And moving forward doesn’t erase the past… it means you’re still choosing to live.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Thank you for your support!

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Directors: Marlon Jackson & Ted Winners (Like A Gazelle Productions)
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with grief, meet, growth. Two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

We're talking about life after cancer, love, loss, and everything no one tells you. I'm David McLean.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

And I'm Jamal Jones.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

We welcome you back to Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death. You so Jamal, you ever feel moving forward in your life? It feels kind of like betrayal to somebody else's grief?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yes. Yeah. And I think it's it's it's one that happens the minute you start feeling like you want to take those first steps toward happiness. Right. Like we talked about the previous episodes around that grief, you know, holding your ankle like you know, like an anchor. Yeah. Right. Kind of pulling you down and and and you're trying to find these way ways out. And you feel like you're betraying your your late spouse, your family, their family. Right. That's that's that's that's a heavy, heavy burden to carry. Yeah, yeah. But you know, I think the the the part about it is you you have to be okay taking that step forward. Right? Like you you can't just you know, kind of delay your happiness. And you know, you you you have to be respectful, I think, to everybody else's feelings. Um, but you you're not you know, you're not responsible for somebody else's, you know, kind of what they carry. And and you can't worry, like at the end of the day, like you're not trying to erase her. Yeah. Right? I I think that's something.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yeah, I think today that's what we want to kind of cover is this maintaining or letting go of relationships with the in-laws. How how do you make that work as you as you move forward?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, what was your like I think you your we all still deal with it. I still deal with it. Like how managing those elements and those dynamics of of of my late wife's family and making sure the kids are plugged into them and things like that. But what what's your kind of experience now?

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Yeah, I think with my in-laws, they're older parents at this point. They're and you and I are older, just so that that makes sense. The math makes sense on that. So I think it's really plugging into where they are in their lives now, particularly with the health challenges, and also with them reconciling, if that's possible, that Nalani's no longer here and kind of moving along with that. So I try to stay as close as I possibly can to them, particularly about the age-related health challenges that are coming up for them now. And maybe those that are preventable as well, to then ensure that the remaining years, because look, we're counting down, not up, yeah, are as vital and viral as possible with them. And so I'm certainly texting them, I'm calling them. I'm a lot there as much as they want to hear from me, and for me to not overdo it, I'm sending pictures and just having the conversations with them, topical or otherwise, particularly when we went through the last episode of the Sweet 16 episode where our girls turned 16, just giving them the blow by blow on that, because uh Martha, so Nalani's mom was able to come, and then Ron, okay, Nalani's dad had some health challenges. So I had to kind of make sure I wanted to ensure that he had a sense of what happened, what emotions experience, what was the whole kind of the the day in that celebration.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, do you find sorry? Do you find like you talked about kind of the health piece and and and you're dealing with kind of this element of this loss and a health-related loss? Do you find yourself kind of pushing family more to like make sure you're healthy, make sure you're focusing on these things?

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Yeah, man. I think just because of what we have been through, control what you can control, right? Yeah. I mean, we can eat as healthy uh and maintain a lifestyle that is that way as well. There's only so much you can control. There's only so much. So I definitely push it that way, but I it's not uh, and you need to do this the other. It's more telling the stories. Right. Well, you know, this is what I I was over here, and yeah, I just get up in the morning and I just did that stretch just so I can just feel as whole as I'm gonna be and get the food going, you know, and then I get into my day, and you know, I have to tell stories in that way because nobody really wants, and you need to do this, that, the other. Yeah, particularly your your your in-laws in that sense. So I I think also inviting them to annual vacations, and and we've done that. So uh Martha has come to an annual spot that we go to every year. Yeah, um, she's been at least once and really enjoy that. She could kind of escape the every day that she has. She has activity, she goes to the community center near her and what have you. She's maybe doing less travel and such, so we want to make a big feature really of whatever that event is going to be for her. Right. So I think that is something that we're that I'm really trying to do with them. And then I think, especially at this time, I've realized with that contact with them. I remember when I spoke to Martha and Ron about my moving on and them giving me emotional license to do that. Because I was scared, bro. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

To say Scared about oh, to talk to the dating part.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yeah. Or just in that sense of moving on.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Scared of the dating process or scared of how they would react to your dating process.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

It's more that is how they would react. It's kind of, are you honoring our daughter? Right. Right. Are you honoring the woman that you marry? And I was really surprised when I had the conversation because Martha in particular, when I spoke to her, I'm gonna try to do my best, Martha voice. I can't say of course if you watch, please don't be offended. I'm gonna do the best time. Because you know, I tell stories. I said I tell stories, you have to it it happen, impersonate as much as you can. But so I remember speaking to Martha, and brother, I was scared because I didn't know what response I was gonna get. And you know, she's she's very much in her faith, and I didn't know how that would play out in kind of everyday life when with the consequences of what has happened to to both of us. Right. So I remember going to her, and it just came up in a natural way. It wasn't I didn't want to put a lot of attention on it, no Martha, then I no. Yeah, it was more about in the flow of conversation. Oh, and yeah, and I started dating a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Oh, so you threw it out there, kind of you know, but matter-of-factly, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:26

I didn't want to sit her down and can I get you some good coffee? And you know, and I and I said, and she said, Oh no, David, you have lived your vows. So you you you you done what you needed to do. So you you are allowed to be happy again, yeah, and and experience all that love that you have that you can give others.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

That's good. That's that's Martha. That sounds like I I remember when I met her. That sounds like her. That's yeah, okay. That's kind of like Marlon. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Marlon is back with us in the studio. So, Marlon, was that that Martha? Yeah, you got the thumbs left. Okay, good. So, so having that conversation with her helped me to open up to you and I talk about joy and happiness and letting that back in a little bit, opening that valve that we've talked about in prior episodes, that it's shut off. Right. Now it's opened up a little bit more. Right. And so I remember having that conversation and also with with Ron, her Nalani's dad, that I was mentioned to him, meh, it I'm gonna do the best, Ron. I can't run. Brother, if you hear this, no, I'm trying to do my best with that. And I I remember we had a birthday party for one of the girls and one of the jump around places, you know, the trampoline places or whatever. And so we were just sitting on the bleachers and just kind of talking about everything and health and how he's doing moving forward. And yeah, well, son, you know, just doing best I can, man. And all that's all right, you know. And I was mentioning about the dating part, yeah. And he said, No, son, son, you know, go ahead. I know you you you've done what you needed to do.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

That's good. So I got it. Yeah. Thank you. Listen, I mean, I mean, when you think about the the blessings that you need, like who's like you're talking, you know, asking somebody, you want the parents' blessing, you want the father's blessing. Right. You there's a part of you that still needs that blessing. Oh my goodness. You you maybe need is not the right way, but you desire that blessing. That's true. Right. You you you want to please as many people as you can.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

No, and you can't. Right. You can't make everybody happy. Right. Because it's your life. Yeah, you've got to kind of continue with that. So I also want to say about Martha's development in particular, is that she sought out other women who were older who had lost their adult children.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Right. So she's trying to understand it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah, so I applaud her that she sought that out, had that open conversation with other older women who had lost their adult children. So I I just truly, truly applaud her for all that she's done. And I think also with this process of working the out the relationship with the in-laws, is I think also for Ron, you can see it coming more to the surface for him.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Okay. More so now that except in the grief process on okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

In in a very public way, he'll change his profile on social media and pictures of Nalani.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Uh texted him and he's t texted back to me about I'm just thinking of in the context of these granddaughters. What they're missing. Right. I know I'm missing a lot on his saying. Yeah. I can't imagine what it is for them. So it's this a man of another generation, you know, 70s, 80s, who is now starting to things are coming to the surface.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And then and it goes back to everybody's grief process. It's different. Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Like everybody's in a different place. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. So I I there's a lot of that that I'm definitely thinking about, but I think it's part of who I am. Of there's no way they're not gonna be part of my life. First, because of the grandchildren, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

But then also, these are wonderful people who have always been there to whatever degree, whatever amount of communication that we have, but it continues on. Yeah. Ron still calls me son. Right. That means a lot to me. Right. That means I did something right. It went Nalani and I and she was alive and what have you. So yeah. So what what what what did you do another question?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think uh so for me, I'll and I'll start talking about my mother-in-law. I think you just kind of keeping the the in-law, the parent-in-law theme. Um, so my my father-in-law, Janice's father, he had passed away um a year and a half before Janice did. Um, you know, of diabetes or complications from diabetes. And so but my my strongest relationship was with with Joan, you know, my mother-in-law. And you know, I'm not gonna try to imitate her voice because she's got like this West Indian accent, and I don't want to offend anybody culturally, so they're gonna be like, but bullshit accent is that. Um so no, but I think so so she she lived with us for a while, yeah, wanted to help us, you know, when we moved to Austin, she kind of bounced between you know each of her kids' houses helping, you know, in particular myself and and my brother-in-law with with and his wife with their kids and same, and then settled with us for a while. She liked the warm weather in Texas and um versus the cold of New Jersey, and then basically stayed with us. Um it was you know, you lot of hear a lot of people like, wait, your mother-in-law, you live, your mother-in-law live with you, or you my mother-in-law was dope, like she was great. Yeah, you know, and everybody living with anybody, you you have your stuff, and everybody has their stuff in their dynamics, but you know, I couldn't have asked for a a better dynamic. Um an active set of hands. Set of stands. Great, active set of hands spoiled the kids to like to the brink. Yeah, right. Um, but especially once Janice got sick, it was critical to have her there. I mean, she was like so, so helpful. Um, but the relationship with her that I had was always really close. And you know, for me, I always thought about it in the context of you know, especially after after um Janice passed. There was always there was this internal debate of, you know, we taught talked about it a few a while ago. Is she gonna stay with us? Or as I turned this page forward, is she gonna go? And she quickly, you know, probably within the first month or two, she she had said, I told her, hey, like I don't want to stay in the house. We're at you know, I want to move. Yes, it's hard to stay in this house because again, Janice passed in the house. Um, and she was just like, oh no, no, I agree. And and she was like, and I think I think that's gonna be a good time for you to transition on your own with the kids, because that you you guys need to figure out like what living just the three of you is gonna be like.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

And I was like, whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

All right, like because you were kind of scared.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I was scared. I was just like, it was scared both ends, like scared in a way that, like, yes, I know I have to turn this page with me and the kids, but also like she's been such a critical part of like our support system, yeah, and how are the kids gonna react? Like, this is an extension of this, this, this mothering dynamic that they have, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Did you it's like putting this foundation in place and then ripping it out, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Right. So it was this careful kind of piece of of uh a walk, and that that was the first part of it, was just like, okay, so you're gonna leave. All right, great. All right, I don't know how I feel about that. There's pros and cons. Right. Um, then probably going into maybe we got to maybe four, maybe four or five months after um after Janice had passed, and I think Joan and I were sitting down, kind of like eating dinner one day. I think the kids were off playing, and and she just looked at me, she was like, you know, Jamal, like I think you should, like, you should start your process of like thinking about like you know moving forward. And she brought it up.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

And I was just like, Joan, like, are you like okay?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Did she outline it?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

No, she didn't, she didn't say she didn't give it time. And I was just like, nah, Ma, I was like, because I used to call, you know, I called her Ma. I said, Ma, it's not, I don't even want to think about that yet. She was like, Jamal, you know, Janice would want you to be happy. And and she similarly said, You've you did everything that you needed to do as a husband. And she was like, and I also think it'd be important for the kids to see you love again and see you kind of and I was it it was for me, it I didn't get to get to this weird, awkward place.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

It would and it and ironically, it was probably around the time when I was starting to think, like, man, like what does what does that look like? What does dating look like? She brought it up, and and it kind of took the pressure off of me. For sure. And you know, really, it was it was her, her feedback probably equally as important as my parents, my parents' feedback or or thoughts on it. And you know, I didn't, you know, again, my my father-in-law, he he had passed, so I was like, man, this is okay. Like, it was a relief to to get that pressure off. But, you know, I think she understood the dynamic that Janice and I had. So she also had a very front row seat to the challenges that we had under marriage. Okay. Right. And and she did her best to kind of stay out of it and stay at a distance and support us the best way we needed support in that mechanism. She wasn't, I didn't have to worry about her if you know she overheard an argument. You know, I she was talking to me fine the next day. Like it was like, you know, like she did a great job of staying out. And then sometimes I was like, Can you I need to tap you in, I need help. Like, she was like, No, I'm not getting involved. So it was it was interesting to kind of have that that dynamic. Nightline is on. I'm sorry. I can't Yeah, she's like, I'll be in the bedroom, guys. You know, I'm like, no, I need help. Like, so but but I think that was interesting, and I'll and I think you know, later, much later down the line, when I did start my dating process, and and I would tell her I was going on dates, and she'd be like, Okay, I'll watch the kids. And you know, sometimes she would just you know, sometimes she would come over and watch the kids, and when she once we moved, she would come and stay with the kids, and you know, and okay, you you have a good time. And I'm like, this is so strange. Like my mother-in-law is watching the kids, but I'm going, and I'm look at first I was looking for a like a babysitter, yeah, or somebody. And she was like, You don't need to pay a babysitter, I want to spend, you know. So, did you also feel when you were out you needed to get in at Yes, I did. I was like, Is she gonna be watching the time? Did I come home? I mean, like, sorry, I have a curfew, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Like, I'm sorry, it's 12 30.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

You know.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

So that was that was weird at times, and then the and but but she made it so wow, so cool because then she was like, you know, if I would get home and she she all she we had.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

But she's been experienced too.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, she was like, so she was like, What you guys do? And and it was so matter-of-fact-ish. Yeah, like she didn't ever show me anyway that she felt any kind of way. There was no judgment. There wasn't judgment, and and that was cool, and and fast forwarded the point when I told her about Jordan, and I was like, hey, like, I I think this is a serious one, and and she had met Jordan, because again, you know, these were all people in our community, and and she had she had met Jordan before like months before. And your now wife. My now wife. And she was like, Oh, I like Jordan. Right. She was like, Oh, she she's like, I like Jordan. And I was just like, Oh, okay. Well, I I like her too, Ma. Right?

SPEAKER_03 19:07

It's a tribal thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah, and and it was weird because you know, from a from another stand, I had other friends and family who were like, and some of Janice's family and cousins and stuff who were like, it's too soon. And I'm like, my my mother-in-law said, it's fine, right? Like, sorry, Ma said she's good. Like the only seal of approval. That was the only seal of approval I need. That's it. Right. Like that was the that was one of her and the kids. Yeah. Right. So she can do it, guys. Y'all gotta figure it out. Yeah, exactly. This mother watched this this woman watched her daughter, come on now. Literally, watched her daughter pass. So, so that was something too. Like, even you know, fast forward when when Jordan and I got married and we had Simona, Joe, oh, I'll babysit her. And I'd be like, I don't know how I feel. This is definitely getting weird. But she made it so welcoming, yeah. And you know, God rest her soul, my you know, Joan, my mother-in-law passed from pancreatic cancer to two years ago, about two years ago. She was texting Jordan. Really? She would text Jordan like to talk to her during that process. So, so again, I I talk of like the acceptance of not just my process to move of moving forward. She's still grieving, right? Right, she's still texting me pictures of she's still, you know, still talking to the grandkids and helping them, bringing memories to them. She's still in her own process. And I'm like, it this this is for me, was one of the most revealing aspects of like the grieving process for a mother and for a support, a supporter, yeah, as an in-law as you move forward. And I thought that was important.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

And she's supporting another generation that doesn't involve her specifically, and the continuation of her family as it relates to her daughter who passed. Yeah, she's now accepting you having started your own leg of that thing with somebody else. Man, that's some kind of woman, bro.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, and and I always told her, I said, I need the same thing I used to tell Tahir, my stepson, everything I was like, I used to tell them all like, I need you guys to make sure that they always have these other memories and these other views and and and perspectives of who their mother was. Right? Because it can't just be mine. This is my so that was the thing. Um then another, my sister-in-law, um, Ingrid, she lives actually lives here in Jersey. And her and I always kept like a good, you know, she she lived in Jersey, so when we were in Austin, it was always a phone call and text message. And um, you know, she's always been like very close with us, like, you know, when she introduced us to she welcomed us into our home church, and when we did the second service, we held it there. Um, so she's always she was always and still is always very engaged, very supportive. And like we never talked about it. It was was interesting. We never talked about like the hey, like I'm dating, or it was interesting, like it just it never really happened. But even though, and that's sorry, it was like you think about these dynamics of like the times when you get the mother-in-law or the father-in-law who are like, Man, you've done your job, you go to your thing. But then you get some other family members who are just like, I'm just gonna like be neutral. And I felt like she was neutral. But the interesting part about it was when we moved here and to to to move back to Jersey, like she's literally 15 minutes away from us. We invite her to family gatherings, we invite her to like Simona's birthdays, the kids barbecued, like, and she just shows up and she comes, and similarly, she's embraced and welcomed Jordan. And at first, you know, I think it was like, How's this gonna be? You know, what's this gonna be like?

SPEAKER_03 22:47

But she might have felt you're already getting pressure from all kinds of places. Then and why do I need to complicate your process of moving? Exactly. So maybe that's Ingrid's role. She understood it when she said, This is what I'm doing, I'm standing pat, this is what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

We went out to dinner with her last weekend, just just us and her, like the family. Oh wow, and and and that's what I mean, like this embracing right of of dynamics and this this welcoming. Um, and I think that was really important to her because I know, like, hey, like, she was you were extremely close with your sister, and I need you, like this unsaid, but I like my thought was like I really need you, Ingrid, to make sure that like the kids feel you and feel your presence and feel your love and feel your support of where we are in the process. And and that was, you know, as you talk about the grief process, not just moving forward in a relationship, but I think also moving forward in this element of like, well, how are we going to collectively navigate grief as a as a as a group, as a family?

SPEAKER_03 23:49

As you said before, is only she knows certain history of Janice as her sister.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

That she can retell to the children from her perspective. You can't do that. Right. So that's important too of that legacy of the family and and that acceptance and moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Yeah, and I think there's a part where you can't you can't hide your new life from your family and from your in-laws. That's right. You it the the more you fear it, I think the more you you and maybe we'll touch on it, but but I think if if I my thought was if I fear this transition, then I'm gonna make it more uncomfortable for everybody. More uncomfortable for the kids, more awkward for Ingrid, and especially more awkward for, you know, my now wife Jordan. Yeah. Like I think that that part to me is something that wasn't it was something that I was like, I can't do that. Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

And it stunts your growth. If you're spending all that energy trying to please all these other people and running around for acceptance, you stay in the same place. Yeah. Or your tailspin, well, really, truly, in the tailspin of, okay, I I I need to make sure this all optically looks right and people get along.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

And you can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. The one parts that you know, I think the the two other relationships, so this you talk about how men kind of deal with grief. So my brother-in-law took his, took Janice's loss very difficult. Like it was very tough for him. Um, and he and I strangely, in the in the first few months after she passed away, we stopped actually talking. Part of it was I think, you know, when Joan had to leave, I think he was like, Well, like, are you kicking my mother out? I'm sure he felt that way. And I'm like, But did he speak to you? We never spoke. Like he and I never spoke. Did he speak to the mother? I'm not, I I I asked, I I I think I actually talked to her about it.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Okay. Um, did she have anything to say about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

And she was she aware that she was aware. I told her, I was like, hey, Mark's not talking to me. I'm not going what we're sure what's going on. And and she had told me he was taking his his her her lost heart. He was also going through a divorce at the time. So it was like it was very conflicting and complicated. I joked that I got his wife as my new sister, his ex-wife as my new sister in the divorce. Like her and I are like thickest thieves, and and we were both a huge support for each other. She was newly divorced and you know, single mom now, yeah, trying to figure out what life was like. Yeah, and then I was now single dad, and and we leaned on each other, and and Joan was kind of helped to support both of us. Okay. But I think he also felt conflicted. Like my sister just passed, I'm divorced. You know, fast forward, now you're moving forward, you're starting a new family. The funny part was like he also started a new family, so his daughter is like a month older than my than Simona. So I was just like, Yeah, tag, you're it. Like, yeah, you're like, you know, you can't give me task me no shade. Yeah, you can't pass me no shade. You did too, right? So that was part where you know, we we we we didn't really have this the the relationship that we needed to. And I it saddened me, it still saddens me. And we we're now on on speaking terms, um, only mostly because his mother passed away. Okay. Um, or my you know, Joan passed away. But there was a part of me that Mark he brought a sense of humor to the stories from that family that I just remember, you know, during that time, like he it was like this element of fun and excitement, doesn't matter what the the story was, he turned it into this like comedy act that that everybody was like mother, father, sisters, like everybody found such joy in that. And it was a part that I remember, like, man, like it's it's it's really messed up that he and I aren't where we should be, probably because he's struggling with my thing, but I also had to accept that he's also dealing with his own thing, true, right? And and some of this might not be me, some of them might this might be him and and and his struggling with how to kind of deal with that. Um, but again, I can't, that wasn't my burden, yeah. Right. And but it was it was, you know, now we we we occasionally text each other, and you know, and and I think that was important for us to to be able to kind of bridge that. And I'm I'm at the point now where I don't not to say I don't hold punches, but I don't like hold my my opinion. Yeah, right. I always say that's the gift that I got out of death, out of Janice's death, because I say what I'm thinking, yeah, yeah. Um respectfully and lovingly. But I told him, I'm like, hey, like this period of time wasn't cool for us, and like we gotta figure out even if we're not the same as we were, like, it's for the kids, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:32

And and they missed a cast member, and they missed the cast members for years. Yeah, he you as you said, he brought this vibe, made things fun, yeah. And your children missed out on who Uncle Mark was.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Right, right, and and because of it, it prevented me from really feeling comfortable exposing him to my new family.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Right?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Right, because again, judgment, judgment, bringing his own challenges, don't cast my new daughter, Shay, don't class my wife. I'm not I'm not even bringing you bringing that to you. So yeah. So, you know, and and and those are things you don't realize all the complexities of of of these relationships. But the last one that I'll talk about is my stepson, and it's it's not an in-law because he is my son. Right. Um, but it was really just navigating the dynamics. Navigating the dynamics of him adjusting to my progression. This, I mean, he lost not just his mother, he lost his father a few years before that. He lost his father, his his grandfather a year and a half before Janus.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Janice had a previous husband, yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

And then he lost his grandfather two weeks after, a week or two after Janice passed. So like he had so much loss in such a short period of time. So he's his grief is so complex, and then me being his only surviving father figure, right, for for and then to see me like you know, and and I knew Tahir since he was nine. Yeah, right. So now he's in his 20s, and he's seeing me over time, kind of starting his page and turning pages, and that was difficult, right, for him to deal with. And and and we eventually kind of got to a place now, he also thankfully lives in Jersey, and now same thing, he's part of our family, yeah, right. He'll come over for Christmas, and there's gifts for him waiting under the tree, and and like all of this, and when we have get-togethers and celebrations at the house, like he's invited, and this is something that's like navigating that uh one part of it was I couldn't force him to accept it. It was also me acknowledging that although I want him to be a part of my life, a part of my family, it is a 20-something now, well now 30, 30, 32-year-old man, that I cannot force him to accept this until he's ready. And he eventually did, right? And we eventually and we talked about it, and and I told him same life, like, I need you. If you don't want to talk to me, that's fine. If you don't want to kind of be part of this new unit, that's fine. I need you to support your sisters, yeah. Right? That's the most important thing is support them as best as you can. And then eventually, like it was a process where he felt more comfortable and we would invite him. And now you went, you know, like he walks into the house and you know, Jordan comes and she hugs him, and he's and and and now it's like it's natural.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

It's just not acceptance, it's participation.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Just participation.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

He's part of his family. He realizes his role in here, it's not secondary. Yeah, you may be steps on him but drop that type of hey man, you family. Yeah, you and my son.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Exactly. So and you know, not everybody's gonna get there, and I think that's the part where it you you recognize that it does take time, right? And and the grief process doesn't necessarily end just because you're ready to move on, yeah. Right, like your our own grief process will still continue, right? It's always it's always there, it's always this this element of grieving, you know, our late wives, but everybody else is is also continuing in its own way. That's right. But I think what they have to do, and this is kind of what will lead into kind of some of the things that we the the takeaways is you know, I think the first one is the grief process doesn't stop. But it also doesn't stop just because we decide that it's time to turn the page and it is time to move on to into a new relationship or into a new love. Yeah, right. Um, and that that that to me is like just because you know, just because it happens, like doesn't cancel, doesn't delete grief, yeah, doesn't erase the past, it's still there, right? Yeah, you know, I think that's something that's that that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

So yeah, and I I think the other thing that we were thinking about to just kind of give people this sense of how you move forward with in-laws, with families, you're you're again something that we've talked about before, but bears repeating. You're not replacing, but it can kind of feel that way to to not only yourself or those involved. As you just talked about, you wanted to kind of check with baby, you're essentially checking, hey, you know I'm not replacing her, you realize we're moving forward. Right. That's that's essentially what you were talking about. So that new partner doesn't mean the emotional triggers for the whole family is detrimental to building and moving forward. Yeah. So that embodiment, that personification of now wife, no, that's not what we're talking about. We're moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Not replacing, right? There is no replacement. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the the other piece of it is permission. Right? Like when you're seeking, you know, like I think we both had the benefit of having mother-in-law's and father-in-law in your case, who was pro it was very supportive, whether the with you, where they were proactive in communicating it to us, or you kind of like said, hey, kind of indicated, hey, I'm kind of thinking like, and they were proactive. When family members, when you sit around waiting for permission, oh man, it's gonna be a long wait. You're doomed, right? Like you're gonna sit there waiting for a whole lot of people. You can't wait, like, there's a whole bunch of family. Yeah, like a whole bunch of family members, you got your kids. If you wait for everybody's permission, I told you I had one family member who was like, you need to wait like five years, right? Like that basically means I'd probably just been dating like last year or something like that, right? Like, yeah, yeah, you know, so but I think that's something like you have to like you can't get stuck waiting for the permission. Some families, to be honest, will never give sign off. That's right. Right? They they're in that mourning process forever. They expect you to and the kids to be there forever, that deep mourning process. Yeah, yeah, and then you at the end of the day, it's it's not it's an internal decision, right? Like it this is not like everybody's uh doesn't get a vote. Like I said, right for me, like I gave the kids a vote, I gave some people opinion.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah, I gave some people the right of opinion, but I gave the kids a vote.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Outside of that, it's on you. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

So so we're also kind of talking about the next thing, which are the boundaries are not betrayal. Setting up those boundaries, that that doesn't mean betrayal, the one who was there before. Yeah, you you can you can also love these people who are so critical of your life as they see it from their lens, but you can also limit their access and influence. That that's what you have to do, yeah. Because you really have to protect your new relationship as as you move forward. Not replacement. New doesn't mean replace, right? And there is you're gonna hear some comparison and that that's going to happen and and and commentary, but then you have to kind of set those boundaries to a degree. And those boundaries mean the sense of real clarity that comes from the conversation and setting those boundaries, and and it's not punishing anybody. Well, you're not gonna have access to my children and now it's it's understand. Let me let me give you the language. Well, let let me set the stage of what we're dealing with, right? So then come in when it makes sense. Mark, your brother-in-law would be kind of that example.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that that goes into like, you know, when you keep the door open for conversation, you but you have to, to your point that now is you gotta kind of just keep it cracked open. Yeah, right. It's not wide open where everybody has just had this feels like they should have this free-spirited, you know, gavel of no, you should not be dating, or you shouldn't like it, it you have to leave space for that feedback. Yeah, but you also have to leave space for them to kind of have connection, right? Like, if you close the door completely on all of these people who are part of your family, you you're closing the door on their grieving process and your own. And if you have kids, your kids, right? Um, and then like the same thing you talked about, like the dynamic with my brother-in-law, even like the initial dynamic with with Tahir for me. Like, at some point I sense tension and I said, I can't force this. Yeah, I'm gonna let this be. I'm gonna move forward, yeah, and I'll be available when the time comes.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

And you'll know more.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

And you'll know more at that stage.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

You have gone through it maybe with other people that in the family are otherwise, and you're then mature enough to then understand where this tension is coming from, with the language of tension, essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and also you kind of had touched about touched on this, but you your kids are definitely the bridge here to this moving forward, to as it relates to the in-laws as well, their grandchildren. Yeah, you know, that they are the bridge, and they're not the pressure point. No, so it's not creating a scenario that's uncomfortable. Or leverage, or leverage, oh my gosh, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's in that's definitely they can allow and they want to cling tighter to those grandchildren because it's the embodiment, the personification of their daughter or son, if you're a widow or a widower, yeah, um, for for those parents, for those in-laws. Yep. So it's really this idea as much as you can be to be intentional about what's really healthy and what's guilt written pressure or or access.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

And yeah, and we talk about the pressure, like it's a you know, the pressure that you have to prove that you still care, love, or grieving. Like, there's it's it it could feel like a loyalty test. Yeah. Right at times when you are going through your grieving process, moving into your next relationship, but then feeling like you still have to show this spoken or unspoken natural or unnatural element of loyalty, yeah, just to prove that yeah, I I did love this person. Yeah. Right. Or I do love this person.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

But but also it's something we said in a prior episode with your now wife, Jordan is understanding your co-parenting.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

You're right.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

So let me go back to that aspect as it relates to this loyalty, which is there is a dialogue, especially with memories involved for the children and keeping those intact, that as you have said in in past episodes, having that dialogue with Jordan, because Jordan is amazing and an incredible person, and she understands that moving forward, we're co-parenting, memories are very much tied to all of this.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Right. Yep. Yeah, and I think you you you have to decide ahead of time, you know, what you will and won't carry forward.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

It's like what we talk about, like going through the box of things, the boxes of their things. It's almost you have to think about like, I can't take all these things with me from a box, you know, from from physical sense. But there's also elements of the past, elements of the process that you can't force it. You can't take every single aspect. Hence, my feedback is also some of this you gotta distribute amongst the rest of the family who's there to carry this and help help in that process and let those be their parts of their grieving process, but also help take the burden off of you to feel like you've got to be the one that owns the control and the pace of everybody's grieving process.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

So I think the next one kind of relates definitely to your situation as it relates to involving Jordan. This this first introduction is never just an introduction, yeah, as as we know. But this in in our both our situations, me a little less, so you're a little bit more advanced in this. Is this idea of when you bring a new partner around, yeah, it's a symbolic moment. Yeah, sure. You're saying to your children, to family, hey, this I'm I'm moving forward, guys. Yeah, everybody, you see what I'm doing here, right? Right. Okay, right. It and so the timing and the setting really matter more than how perfect that situation comes off. Because you you can plan all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

When emotions are involved and other people Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

And and you talk about like the planning it, and you you know my suggestion is tell your mother, whoever the town crier is, right? Just just tease it. Yeah, I might, I'm, I might, is it okay if I bring a date?

unknown 41:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Or is it okay if I bring a friend? Like that, that right there, that will get the whole family prepped. That's it. That you're showing up, that it's not gonna be a surprise, and you know, at least they could because because the surprise and you know, surprises are uh don't always go well.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

That's right. But you know, Joan Joan helped you out.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Oh, Joan folk emotionally ahead of time. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Hey, this is what's gonna happen. Now, not everybody maybe it it sought her counsel, but at least you did the best you could to kind of prepare people emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, yeah, and then you know, you know, I think the important you like you gotta let them have their version of you. Yeah, right. Like you don't like if you feel the pressure to control the narrative, you kind of have to put that in the back of your mind. Because a part of me, and I think this goes into like you know what we've talked about in the past around making yourself and really focusing on making yourself happy, focusing on your happiness. If you focus on your happiness, that's like halfway to not giving a damn, so to speak, about what everybody else thinks, right or wrong. Like you really have to focus on like how where you are, and I think that's an important part of like just getting through your journey, right? They'll figure it out, they'll see it at some point in time. Some of them may, you know, you talked about the Facebook pictures, and I still go on Facebook and I see family and friends with pictures of Janice, and it's it's nine years later, right? Almost nine years later, and they're still grieving and mourning in their own way. And some of them I talk to, and some of them know my family with Jordan, and some of them are still not ready for that. Yeah, and I'm okay with that. Like, I I I I pray for your grieving process, but I'm okay with mine. Yeah, right. And I think that's something that's important. Like, you can't worry about what everybody else thinks, you know. It it the peace of your situation will come from your own acceptance of your acceptance of your situation, and eventually the people who are most important to you and your core unit, they'll come around.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Yeah, not necessarily their agreement, right, but just that accept not uh understand acknowledgement of that that this is happening. Yeah, I mean, we said this before, but I think it's this this next point of you know, redefining your family without erasing the past. That's that's what you're doing. Yeah. And and that is this Building of something new and not deleting that was already there.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Right. I I think it's it's like the the erasing the past piece is an interesting, interesting one for me because do you think that I'm gonna forget who this person was? Like we were married to these people for you know however many years, we raised children with them, we brought people brought children into this world, like some of the most joyful moments of our lives were created with these people, in some cases some of the saddest, right? But at the same time, like if you think that we can erase this, like we we couldn't if we tried, right? And we don't want to, right? And I think that's the part that's important for it all can coexist.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Yeah, it all coexists. You just have to do it with a little bit more intention. You know, that the goal is this this sense of harmony, it it it it's respectful coexistence, yeah. That that's kind of your intent. So that's what you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah, and then I mean I I think the other part is to give grace. Yep. Right, like again, everybody's in their their own grieving process, and while you may feel initially like, oh, okay, these people, I don't feel like they're supporting me, or I don't feel like they understand where I am. They might not, right? And and I always say, I pray that nobody gets has to, you know, step into these shoes, right, or experience this. Right, but there's a part where they they may not get it, but you you have to give grace without you know, kind of that element of like self-abandonment. Like don't isolate like you know, like this intentional isolation of yourself or or or you know, like removing some people from your support system, you know, or from your family, so to speak, because they're struggling with your acceptance. It goes back, like let them go through the process at their own pace, acknowledge their pain, right? Don't diminish it. I have I always acknowledge, like, hey, I it it might not be easy for you to see me moving forward or or finding happiness. You know, I'm doing the best I can to like take my steps forward, still find the ways to honor this past and let sure make sure the kids are doing that. But like it's it's you can't focus on you know the things that aren't sustainable. Yeah, right. It's it's it's like some of this stuff is just gonna have to you know be part of the process. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

I I I kind of like this last theme as we're talking about moving forward, involving in-laws, involving family. Time reveals what force will not. And it never will.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

I really like this one because I naturally people will have their connection to you and to your family. You don't have control over that. Right. And so some relationships may soften over time, kind of with Mark, your your brother-in-law, so Janice's a brother. But it happened over time. Yeah, that tends to be the case. Give give things time, but most cases it will improve to a sense that is approachable. Maybe it feters in some situations too. Yeah, you hope it's the the the the first one. Yeah, for sure that others are gonna fade from what structure, construct your family looks like, and that's okay. Yeah, that's fine. You just have to focus on what's sustainable, not not what's immediate. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah, I think just that way. The the thought that that comes to me is you know, a season, a reason, a lifetime.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Right. That's it. Like, you know, somebody told me one time, you know, actually my counselor at the time, she said to me one day, and in as I was, you know, venting to her about the family who wasn't supporting, or the family, whether it was moving process, or you know, when I was ready to move forward or just in general, she was just like, you know, some of that family is her family, not your family. That's right. Right? And that that that hit me hard. And I was just like, but it was also revealing, like, yeah, you know what? That is true. Like, some of these people were her family, they were loyal to her, and some of that wasn't going to you talk about sustainable, some of it was only sustainable to a certain point. Yeah, and that's the reality of it. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

So yeah, so really at at the end of the day, moving forward isn't just about replacing what you lost.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah, it's about you know refusing to lose yourself through this whole process. Like you have to continue focusing on your path.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yeah, I mean you can honor the past and still choose your future.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

And sometimes people can't walk with you, you gotta walk ahead without them.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

And then you walk in anyway.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

That's all you can do. That's it. But you know, you gotta keep walking, and when you're underground, you gotta find your way back up. So, as usual, we wrap up. We want to thank you guys for joining us again on another episode of Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Yeah, hit us all the socials and comment back to us. We're this is the community we're all building. All we talk about is so common. And we can all kind of get together and kind of figure all this out. So look for all our socials. It's up on the screen. There's a text number, all that. So thanks for joining.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on Getting Back Up, finding life after death. If something in today's episode spoke to you, pass it on because somebody out there needs to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

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SPEAKER_01 49:47

And be sure to subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And remember, getting knocked down is part of life. But getting back up is how we live.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

We'll see y'all next time.