39: I Felt Guilty for Laughing Again, After Loss

Episode 39: I Felt Guilty for Laughing Again After Loss

There’s a moment many widowers and grieving spouses experience—but rarely say out loud: the first time you genuinely laugh again… and immediately feel guilty afterward. 

In this episode, Jamal and David unpack the emotional confusion that comes when life starts feeling okay again. The normal moments. The unexpected joy. The dinners, trips, conversations, and laughter that briefly make you forget what you’ve lost—until guilt rushes in to remind you. They reflect on the emotional whiplash of healing, the fear that happiness somehow dishonors the person you loved, and why so many grieving people struggle to trust moments of peace.

From awkward public moments while dating again, to holding someone’s hand for the first time after loss, to realizing your children are laughing and growing again—this conversation explores the tension between remembrance and forward movement. Because healing doesn’t always feel good at first. Sometimes it feels unfamiliar. Sometimes it even feels wrong.

But as Jamal and David discuss, joy is not betrayal. Laughing again doesn’t mean you loved them less. It may simply mean you’re learning how to carry them forward differently.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Getting knocked down is part of life. Getting back up is how we live. 

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Directors: Marlon Jackson & Ted Winners (Like A Gazelle Productions)
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with Greece Meet Grove. Two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

We're talking about life after cancer, love, loss, and everything no one tells you. I'm David McLean. And I'm Jamal Jones. And we welcome you to Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death podcast. Jamal, this one, this is interesting because I caught myself the other day, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I I I was genuinely laughing the other day. Okay, we're good. An experience I can recall. Yeah. Okay. Okay. What's what's well, you know, but it it it stopped me. You know, it was kind of this a mid-laugh. I I kind of said to myself, can can I be doing this?

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Oh yeah. Hold on. Is is it is it time? That's that's when it hits you and you you you you kind of contemplate switching up real quick. Yeah. Right. Like not sure if this is the uh this this the this the angle you should be going right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Right. It how much time from the passing of the late wife can you feel joy and happiness again? And that's what we're gonna talk about today. It's we're talking about a lot of a lot of men, they they won't say it out loud.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and it's that, and we've talked about this before in a previous show about how that guilt presents itself. So it's this one is how that guilt continues to pop back up and in some cases kind of holds you back from feeling okay again.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, we we we want to have a clear understanding today of of this feeling that you it it's not stopping life, but it's continuing to live. And you're you're actually starting to live again, and the indications are are are are there, yeah. And and don't hold back on that. So what's what I want to kind of get into is kind of we have a couple of stories that we're gonna as we normally do, we'll we'll share with you today. But it's it wasn't anything really big, and I think that's something that the listeners have to understand. It's it can be these very small moments, and it could be normal conversation, just kind of good energy, and and that feels normal again, and you and then you forget for a second, and then you kind of move on and kind of allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Yeah, and that's the part, like you you can forget that going through those moments, you can forget that having those feelings of progress, like it's that's actually healthy, like you're supposed to go through that, exactly. But a lot of times we get stuck in that moment, like whoa, back to your point. Oh, it's it's too soon, it might be too soon.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Right, exactly. I mean, it's not a linear thing, yeah. You know, it's it's not specific steps, and then oh, I can't feel this way on the calendar. I'm supposed to be feeling a certain way in eight months, not now or whatever. So I I think that's really something to think about.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Yeah. So like you you felt like you you jumped ahead in that process, yeah process a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, I felt a little different.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

I I think I supposed to maybe feel a certain way, and I'm a different place emotionally. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

I I get that, and and I'm gonna jump in. So I had kind of two stories on this one. One, I'll kind of like do kind of, you know, I would say immediately after, but kind of in the recent of the loss. And then the second one is just like like where we are today, you still feel it, and you still close it. Eight years later, after almost in jail, almost nine years later. Yeah. It's like you still go through those moments. You're like, wait, is it? So, like the first one was probably four or five months after uh she passed away. I remember uh Trevor Nowhere had come to Austin. Ironically, I got my Austin t-shirt on, and and he'd come into town, and he he this was probably earlier in his career, you know, before he kind of popped off to where he is now. But you know, I saw some tickets. This is when you get his tickets for like 80 something dollars. Right now. That's a deal. That was that was good. That was okay, you know. Now you could get them for like two, like $300, you're lucky probably. Okay. So, you know, we got some, I got some good tickets, and I didn't have I was bought two because you always buy two. Yeah. And you take somebody. You take somebody, somebody's gonna go. So I at the time I I invited my my sister-in-law, so she come, you know, she she decides to go. And we get there, and you know, you go through the parking and you know, just going through the motions, all the stuff, this usual stuff you do, you know, and uh we we we go to the show, and you know, they got the warm-up act. I don't remember who it was, but I'm sure it was funny. Yeah, and you know, it's the weather's nice outside, it's kind of like a late fall, probably early winter day, and we get to, you know, Trevor Noah comes out, and man, like he's just killing it. Like, I mean, he is just killing the I mean the you know, the typical Trevor Noah comedic delivery, way he tells stories, and and I am in this moment and I am just truly enjoying it. And now, like maybe when I got there, there was a split second where I was just like, man, like I used to do these trips, you know, do these shows with with Janice. But now, you know, this is again a few months later, I'm gonna get no problem. You get to the show, and the whole show goes by. We finish, we're leaving, and we're just I mean and did you have like the laugh where you were oh my gosh, I'm tears, like tears, like laugh and tears, you were fully involved on the show. I was all in, okay, and just completely, you know, like in the moment, completely enjoying the show, enjoying laughing with my sister-in-law, crowd is like feeling it, so no negative energy anywhere. And it was just like a really good experience. And um, we're leaving, walking down the hall, we're recalling moments and still laughing. And those are the best. Oh my gosh. It's like we're outside now and we're you know trying to recall with it, and I hear somebody call me, Jamal, Jamal. And I'm like, who's calling me? And I see uh a coworker friend who you know who's we hadn't seen probably in a little while. He's like, Hey, how are you? And he's looking at my sister-in-law, and I'm like, wait, isn't Thick and something? Right? And I'm like, oh shoot. And he's looking at me like kind of like who this, but it but it was in that, it's in the split second, and I'm probably overanalyzing this for sure. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, oh hey, this is this is my sister-in-law, and you know, whatever, and and you know my my niece and nephew, and you know, I'm explaining just doing the intro thing. But the back of my mind, I'm like, is I wonder if he's thinking, is this too soon? Is this too soon for me to go to a comedy show and laugh? Is this too soon for me to, you know, for the split second that he may have thought this was uh somebody else, yeah, you know, some some other relationship. Is it is it too soon? And you start second guessing all of these things, and I and I did, and that actually made me pause and be like, oh, maybe I'm not I shouldn't be out in public having fun, right? Like forget, you know, the the the Netflix, you know, binge watching comedy by myself in the living room where kids are asleep and find those quiet moments to laugh, but I shouldn't even be doing this publicly. And that that was like an early moment for me where I was just like, man, like your second guess, is it okay for me to find ways to be happy? Did you stay in that moment of I I didn't stay long, but it it definitely made me feel awkward. Okay, right. Like as we as as as me and my sister and all like walked to the car, and like I was very conscious, like now I'm like, man, all right, well, it was a good show, but I'm gonna like man, like I was I was over shouldn't have enjoyed it as much as I did. And and the reality is I should have. Yeah, right? It's okay, right? But that that that was the part there, and then more recently, like so now you know I'm thinking even like eight years later, yeah, almost nine years later, there are days she is after she's passed, right? There are days I've moved forward, I the kids have moved forward, we've all found our ways of grieving and going through this process, um, and accepting the reality that it is she's no longer here. But then there are moments still where you know holidays come or you're laughing or sitting around telling stories, and and I will, you know, we're you know, I'm I'm always looking at how my kids are responding, how they are reacting. But then I can also look up and say, oh man, I've man, I we we went this whole day on this holiday, on this thing, or Christmas, Mother's Day, Thanksgiving, all of these things, these days that are celebratory and fun, and like, oh shoot, we didn't, I didn't think about her today. Or I wonder if the kids thought about her today. Let me go and check on them and see if they're they're okay. Should should we be allowed to grieve and have fun at the same time? Should we be allowed to remember and have fun at the same time? Like we should. Like, and that's the thing. We're like men in particular, we sit there and we hold that and we kind of carry that guilt with us. Yep. Unfairly, in a lot of cases, right? Of of whether this is something letting go, does it letting go or moving forward mean again, do you do you let go of the memories? Do you let go of that person and who gives you the past to have fun?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

So when this is come up with your now wife, what is the response? What is the mood, if there is a reflection on?

SPEAKER_04 10:18

You know, I mean, it's it's it's a it's a it's a good it's a good question because I feel like she's done great at embracing the moments when we should be okay, or when when there is a uncomfortable moment, and it's just like, oh man.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Yeah, Janice should have been a disgraduate. Yeah, that would have been nice if she was here. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

And and and Janice will you know, there's this times that you know, Jordan, my wife now will look at me and say, We should check on Zaya today, or we should check on you know, Jackie and meaning children, yeah. Yeah, that you have Janice. Yeah, how are they dealing with that today? Yeah, even though it's this to time, like I think you present it and you make it a you make it available, but you don't make it like this anchor that weighs everybody down. Yeah. But and I think that's the how do you bring it into the present day as time continues to progress in a way that is still healthy. Yeah, like you don't make it this kind of taboo thing. You make it something that exists and you recognize that sometimes you know sometimes you ask the kids and you're like, How are you dealing with to the house today? Going from Yeah. I'm fine. I'm good. You sure you need anything? No, I'm good. Like so that that was uh I think that's a good contrast between the immediate and then kind of the distant loss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

You said something to me before about the sense of freedom and maybe re regaining it or reclaiming it, that the joy and happiness, yeah, that's that freedom that is yours. Yeah. And that you are allowed to reclaim that again. Oh, yeah. I liked how you said it. Did you want to say anything more about it? No, I mean it's it's it's it's so it's a true thing.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

Freedom, and then I I used the the the the reference to kind of anchors, because anchors hold you down, anchors keep you in place, and freedom is you know being able to be free to find joy, being able to be free to express joy. Like grief is a natural thing you're gonna feel, but so is joy. Sadness is a natural thing of losing somebody, but so is the joy of every other moment. And if we stifle ourselves in the smallest joy or the biggest joy, like what are you really doing to everybody else self around you? What are you doing to your own natural progress? So you have to be free to have all of these feelings. Yeah. Obviously, we want to talk about in the healthy ways, right? Yeah, yeah. But like, yeah, I mean, I think it's that was something that I that I know I personally felt like I didn't want to be feel like there were people or anything restricting my ability to go through my process, go through the the evolution, right? You know, to feel normal, yeah, maybe whatever normal. Normal is gonna be different, but it's it's you've got to get the closest to it as possible.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

I mean, you're definitely different from all of the loss and experience and solving things quickly and what whatever the case may be. So mine is more recent in dating and feeling that's okay. Because in previous episodes I talked about feeling like an imposter. Yeah. That I'm not allowed to have another relationship after Nalani had passed, that others aren't ready, right? And I may not be ready because I had to kind of get myself up for it to go and see the person I'm dating and do the things that we do because I'm I'm still the guy who was married for 17 plus years and this whole life and children and the whole thing. Yeah. So the first time I really felt it, this sense of of joy, but feeling kind of guilty about it, uh, or I should say, you know, just really getting that sense of having fun and enjoying myself and really laughing is when we went up to one of our favorite Mid-Hudson Valley locations. I went up with a woman I was dating, and we had gotten a house, and we were there a week, and so we had our own activities to start. Going to this cafe in the morning and with that breeze and that wonderful clean air. That's different from where we live is decent too. But yeah, it sure feels that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Oh, yeah, because you're traveling to some place and fresh air. Right. Fresh air feels better.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

In your mind, you think, oh, it's the air's got to be fresher there. Yeah. You had to travel to that place. Exactly. Exactly. So, so, and just that, and just sitting at the cafe in public, laughing, just telling stories others could hear whatever we're laughing about and feeling comfortable with that. And so we're doing that and the dinners, and when the sun comes down, that we went on before the sun went down, we went on this hike that was pretty steep. And I didn't realize how tough it would be for her. You didn't you didn't tell her to bring the camel back and the exactly and and the right hiking shoes. She had some sneakers. Uh you know, I had my hiking shoes like, yeah, I think you don't need hiking shoes.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

No, no, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

All right. And and it was a real scurry up through rocks and boulders, like, I'm gonna die. No, you'll be fine. Just just look up, don't look down, you know, that kind of thing. So it was those things. So just to have that kind of like you got a repelling off the side of the cliff. Right, exactly. And the payoff is great because the view is incredible, yeah. Yeah. And so we had those days. Then you guys, you and Jordan came. Yeah. And then other friends of ours, couples, came. We had that wonderful breakfast. Everybody laughing, have a good, good old time and what have you. Yeah. Then to walk off all that food that we have. Oh, yeah. And to show off the the town and everywhere, the donuts. That's right. That's right. That we were walking, and and I I purposely the two senses, sense of joy and laughter that I got in that situation. I kind of hung back on purpose to watch you all, you and Jordan, and our other friend, Phil and Christina, yeah, yeah, hold hands and just walk and point out things and laugh to one another. Yeah. And that brought me so much joy to do that. And then for me, I'm holding this woman's hand. It's a very public broadcast.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

Yeah, it's announcing.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

It's announcing that I'm with this person and I'm happy and I can laugh. Right. But you but it's I still had to second guess it.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Am I ready for all of that now?

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Right. So and do they know? And do they know? Yeah. Right. Do every do folk know my story? You always always have that sense of it. Who knows my story? Am I allowed to do this? But then it's also some of my other friends is understanding. Hey, I've progressed to this level. Yeah. It's also kind of them witnessing that. Right. Not only you and Jordan, who would understand a lot more, but Phil and Christina, or some of the other couples who knew my core university.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

Yeah, who know who now who knew you as this previous partnership, and now seeing you probably go out into this new, you know, start this new phase. And is you're they're asking, you're wondering, I wonder if they think it's okay. Right. But then it's also you thinking, wait, is it okay? Right. Is it all right? I don't know. I mean, why what are they thinking? I don't know what they're thinking, but now I'm thinking, maybe I'm not sure. Maybe it's yeah. So you're all of these added things to make you second guess that does this thing, this thing that feels good, yeah, this new joy that feels like like it's the right time and it's okay, that's causing you to second guess it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, i and really the the the theme we're kind of pulling from this is it it the reality is that this is a connection between pain and love. That's what we're driving toward. Yeah, right now. That that's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Yeah, I mean, somewhere in your mind it starts to feel like I'm not hurting. And if I'm not hurting, am I not honoring this person? Right? And and I'm not hurting right now this deep pain that I used to have. So does it mean that I'm wrong? Right. Does it mean that I'm not respecting and properly, right? It it creates those.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

It's a tough place to sit. Yeah. Because no decision is fully made in any direction. You haven't just sit with it and you just kind of continue on.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean, where it shows up, right? It it it starts to show up in the small moments, right? It starts to go show up in the casual visit, the casual trip to a comedy club, right? To watch a comedian and laugh. And it's gonna be, you know, laughing, relaxing, you know, just normal feeling, right? That the point where you get to and I can remember this feeling, the point where you wake up and your day feels less heavy than it did the day before. Exactly. Right. And less heavy isn't a significant, it it's a significant change because it means that you're adjusting to loss. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And when you you that but it you're also getting closer to a new normal. Yeah. Right, which is life with loss. And I think that's a challenge for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, I mean you you start checking yourself in those situations, is and then you were, hey, am I moving too fast? What should I should I pull back?

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Kind of this momentum, this progress that's going on.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

And I remember in those moments, you go to at least for me, I would I remember going to my counselor and being like, but I didn't I woke up today and I didn't feel this deep thing. And she's just like, that's okay. And I'm like, Are you sure? This I no, just pill just can't be right. This can't be right. Yeah, right. Right? Like, you know, I didn't I didn't think about the loss immediately when I woke up. I got when I got in the bathroom, I thought about it. Yeah. When I got in the stared in the mirror, I got in it, but I didn't think of it when I rolled over.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Right?

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Like that's that's the part where Yeah, this this is where it shows up. And and it's that time with friends, time with a new partner, having new laughs with with kind of a new partner, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Yeah. And then, you know, then think it the other one, and I kind of touched on it a little bit, is watching your kids learn to be happy. Right. Eight years later, even beyond, even before that, you know, these moments where we overthink all the time, are our kids happy? Are they okay? And when you see them being able to be okay, yeah, and being able to laugh with their friends, and then that it comes up then. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

And I think this is a paradox, I think, a little for us, those who have lost, is that you can be fully present and then you just suddenly pull back. Yes. And and that that's where it shows up as well. Yeah. And I think that's important to allow yourself because those you are with, you may have to explain that to them to some degree, but but those who know you and love you, they'll understand.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

That's something right. You know, some people talk about oh, you know, are you are you still grieving and are you still wearing this heavy loss? And I think there's a part of it, even for new partners, like when we start the dating phase, and even later down into where you have to explain to people, your partners, and sometimes your friends, where you are and why. Yeah. Right? Like, oh, I had a moment today where I thought about this day that where that their mom should be there, or the last time we did this type of thing, it just kind of triggered a a quick thought. Not this quick thought of deep loss and deep pain, but just like a a glimpse, yeah, glimmer, this thing that happened. Wow, like I remember that. And that's all right. Yeah. Like it doesn't mean that you're you're you're you're falling back into the into the deep depression or the deep pain of loss. It just means that you're gonna have memories. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

You know, it and I think to kind of close that out is so what you had said earlier about just realizing you go this stretch of time, yeah, not thinking about that loss. Yeah, that's progress. Yeah. That's not forgetting, yeah, but it's actually moving forward in a way that makes it.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

What what confuse what like what surprised you in this process? I think that's kind of one of the things that like what are the things that do surprise you?

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah, what surprised me, uh, you know, I thought feeling better would would feel would feel good. Like all the time. Right. But that that I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

Yeah, it's kind of a confusing, it's like this confuse it's confusing balance of joy and and and loss, right? Reflection.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

You know. And and and you know, what really surprised me that we're talking about now is that it feeling good can feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And I don't know how much it surprised me. I just I didn't I don't know how long it will last, or I don't know if there was a time frame on any of that necessarily. Yeah. But I think it I think it's okay that feeling good could feel uncomfortable. Yeah. That's my new reality. I think.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

And I think that if you think about that, how quickly that can turn, right? Like how quickly that moment can turn into not joy or you fighting joy, right? Like that, that's an important thing to recognize because you you have to be Yeah, I think you have to be able to name it. Like they always say, like, name things, yeah. Be able to name it. Like, wait, why did this thing just turn from me being happy to me fighting the happiness and not letting it just flow? Yeah. I think that that is a it can happen so quickly that people will pick that up. Your kids will pick it up, and you have to be able to name it as quickly as you can so that you can kind of like get through it, accept it, and keep going.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

That kind of accept your own happiness.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I think the you know, the the fact that like you question your own happiness, like you always say, I gotta focus on my happiness, I gotta focus on be happy. But it's almost counterintuitive because you're not like you're you're you're questioning it, you're like, wait, no, no, no, maybe I shouldn't be, maybe I shouldn't be happy, maybe you know, maybe I should fight this thing, and you know, that's a struggle. Like it's a it makes you, you know, it kind of puts you in a weird place.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah, yeah. And I think I mentioned to you one time that I had said that I'm not happy, but I find moments of joy. And I think that's okay, and it it can surprise you in some ways, yeah, but there's there's still a direction that you are headed, and that's in the same place. And that's okay, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Like, like again, we're not saying you have to be happy, right? Like, we're not saying at all like you should make sure you're happy by any means necessary. No, what we're saying is like when it comes, when those moments come, because grief loss is an unhappy situation, right? It it it it can be, and it should be this element of sadness, which is fine. But when it com becomes and starts working to like the moments of joy, like that's okay to let those moments in. And if they can be the moment, whether it's five minutes, ten minutes, five hours, okay, when it's gone, and you get back into like man, but I'm still sad about this thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

It's always gonna be there, it's gonna be there, yeah. Right, yeah. Um, you know, the the intensity, you know, missing the intensity of grief in those certain moments, right? Back to that point. Like the intensity of the grief in the beginning will fade over time and these moments, letting those moments that we just talked about come in and bring you a laughter, bring you joy, let you experience, you know, some some good memories with family and friends today, I think that's important to do because if you sulk and go into the constant sulk, sulking experience, like you know, like you if you get too used to that, that's the part where you find yourself stuck. Yeah. Right. And you find yourself like knee deep into that sadness. And I think that's a hard place to think of.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And that's where you may need to seek some other help in that situation to kind of get through that. And and then the other thing that kind of surprised me is that others might expect you to be happy again before you're ready. Yeah. And they haven't been in that situation, so I think that's difficult to assign a time when, you know, but you know, that sense of that others might expect you to be happy again before you're actually ready.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, and I think this is it it ties a little bit to the next thing that we were talking thinking about and talking about was like that progress doesn't always feel like progress. And it may not feel like progress to yourself, but let alone it also may not feel like progress from those people who were thinking you should be happier sooner. Yeah. Right. Or that you should be handling it differently. And I think a lot of times it's people, especially with people who haven't been in it, they can say, Well, if I was David or if I was Jamal, this is how I would handle it. I would move this thing faster or I would move this thing slower. And I think it's this we always talk about everybody's perspectives are different. I try like personally, like even with your situation, you I'm I don't judge where you should be based off of where I was. Right. I'm like, hey, like our conversations and me understanding where you are, and hey man, I get that.

SPEAKER_07 28:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Or maybe I don't, like maybe you have a different experience to me, and that's the thing about like everybody's path to happiness is gonna look different, sure, you know, and feel different for everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um where I think another, you know, we talked about the surprises, but like the struggles. Yeah, I know where I struggled, um, you know, with just kind of letting the moment be the moment was in those experiences with joy, just letting it be what it is. Yeah, yeah. Not trying to overthink. I overthought joy. So not just for myself, but for the kids. Yeah. Right. There were times that when Jordan and I first started dating, and I was like out, and to your point, you talked about the public holding hands, but even just this like the deep laughter with somebody else, with a new person, right? Eventually like that you're interested in. Like, you know, wow, like struggling with like that aspect of wow, this feels good. This is so wrong. Should have been laughing this hard. I I shouldn't want to wait. I want to text her already. Oh my gosh, I just left.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Right. Like in dating and yeah, if it's a thing for somebody, or somebody like struggle with that.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Yeah, I did struggle with that. And then, you know, even with the kids like struggling with how where are they, how are they doing? We're okay. We're we're going out, we're doing, we're eating dinner at this restaurant that we used to go to with their mom. Like, that's it's all right. We're doing are you guys okay? Are you guys okay? Yeah, how the french fries are you okay? Just say anything to make sure everything's all right. How's the burger?

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Do you like the burger? You're I don't like the burger. Is it well done? Yeah, like man, I'm the same way with you there. Cause it's it's this analyzing the situation instead of just experiencing it. Yeah, just gotta experience it.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Um yeah, so just like letting my safe self stay good in the moment. Yeah, not overthinking everybody. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yeah, and and I I I like this one in the sense of the the struggle. Just think about it this way. It's just you're kind of you're you're you're reconciling joy with the loyalty to to who has passed. Yeah. You know, and and and that's fine, because that your late wife wants you to be happy and move on and laugh and not feel guilty about that.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

She wants the kids, she wants the kids to be happy, she wants you to be happy. I doubt in majority of cases that there's a spouse out there that has damned you to sadness.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Like well, I don't know if they'll mark it as sadness. It's you just can't be with anybody else. Yes. Yeah. Period. Period. What kind of rule is that you had that's another episode. That's a whole like episode.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Yeah. Um, yeah, and then you know, accepting that life life has to continue. Right. And life has to continue. We set out on this path in life to find happiness and be the best people who we can be. And if we have children, be as supportive as we can and as help, you know, make them healthy adults, and like that process has to continue, and and and finding happiness and being happy is is part of that.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Trusting it's okay to feel okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

Yep. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And then the last, you know, balancing remembrance with being with moving forward. Like it's going to be these things where you've it's okay to reflect, it's it's okay to remember, recall, think back. But I think it's all it's all part of the process. Um, and then you know, comparing yourself to where you think you should be, that that that makes it worse, honestly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Like or what people expect from you. I mean, I think that's a tough way to go. And I think that's that's really what can make it worse. It's just that believing pain is is the only way to stay connected to that past that you had. Yeah. Yeah, you it has to be a part of you, always will be, but that may hinder moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Yeah, and then comparing like where you think you should, where you are and your process of grieving, where you are and your process of accepting joy, comparing that to where you believe you should be, I think it's hard because there is no timeline, everybody's timeline is different. You go to any grief counselor, any you know, professional therapist, they will tell you that it's kind of fluid for everybody. I always and I always defer back to as long as it feels healthy and it doesn't feel like you know you're harming yourself or others, then it's probably okay. Um, but I think those are things you should like just, you know, don't don't try to compare. It's not a race.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Yeah, and this anchor you talk about is you you don't have to levy the the guilt tied to moving forward. Yeah, yeah. Especially in dating. Yeah. Especially in trying to find joy and in with someone else, because some that person probably has their story as well, their burden, their sense of loss, and their also sense of connection. Yeah. And it's not clean for anybody because we all, especially at a certain age, you have lived and life experience. So it so you you you can't tie that guilt if you if you're trying to move forward.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

Yeah. Do you remember how the this do you remember the P90? Uh not the P90, yes, the mask. Was it that mask that everybody was wearing back in the you know thinking?

SPEAKER_02 34:29

And it was P9DS was that exercise.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

The mask it was around the same time with the the mask came out where people were wearing the mask to raise their oxygen level and simulated the like this there's this element of accepting and letting in joy it feels like wearing that mask. Right? Like, like you're constraining your breathing. Some strange science says constrain your breathing and you'll force your blood to be carrying oxygen. But the logic of like constraining your joy to get through a healthy grieving process, it's the same thing, right? Like you cannot pres you cannot suppress your joy, right, through this process, because that's not gonna help you grieve better. It's not gonna help help you get through this process. So I that's the one thing that I remember thinking that because I think I remember around the time for my loss, there was, you know, when when Janice passed, it was maybe a couple years before that mask had come out, and I saw I would see people running around with it in Texas, 100 degrees. I'm like, you're running around in Texas with this mask, but and it just reminded me of like, if I don't let joy in, if I suppress it, I'm not gonna be effective. I'm not gonna have you know good workouts, let alone be good for my kids.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

They may have to visit you in the hospital because you have low oxygen blood. You know, that's what's good, what's gonna be so so yeah, man. I think you know, this this sense of feeling judged, yeah, that uh by others and yourself, yeah, the greatest critic. It's that's what makes it worse. Yeah, you gotta that's a tough one. You gotta just move.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

And it's hard to feel and they don't know this part is hard because it's a double-edged sword. You don't want to feel judged, yeah. But you're supposed to be talking to people, and it's healthy to talk to people, but you don't want to be feel judged by them. So you have to find obviously the healthy people, the healthy relationships, the people who are gonna really be open to listening to what you're thinking, what you're feeling. And like I always say, like you've gotta be careful about who you share this with, who you talk to your feelings with. Find somebody who you could trust for sure. Um, but you know, don't worry about feeling judged and then also make sure you're talking about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, I and I think what helped I think for we can speak to to this personally, and then also for those kind of listening and watching to us is it's letting moments happen without shutting them down. You know, you just you have to you're gonna you're gonna learn something through that, and then you just you're gonna realize how resilient I think you are too. So let let those moments happen uh with without kind of stopping that situation. You you're gonna learn more. You already have proved you can move forward, but this this if you've gone through this, all this other, you'll you'll get through this moment as well.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

Yeah, and then you know, we we we always talk about the guilt, you always feel the guilt. It's a part of the process. So understand why it's there. So take the time to let that guilt in, understand why you feel that way, process it, but it's a part of that transition. Yeah, right. You're you're going to feel that and it's going to gradually feel normal. And you're you have to get to the point where you're like thinking, okay, here's this moment of joy that I felt. Here's this question that I'm feeling, you know, this this moment that I'm feeling like, and like maybe I shouldn't have this. And then that's okay. Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

But back to what you said earlier, I think it's you you really have to reframe this sense of whether you are to have this joy. The the person, Janice and Nalani, the late wives, and for you all, they want you to be happy. So you have to reframe this sense of of joy.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, I think in and reframe it, I think by talking to people who are willing to understand, willing to listen, and the people who do understand, right? Professional and otherwise, they're gonna be those people in your life who are willing to sit there and listen to you process this. Yeah, and sometimes they may have some good things to say and some helpful things to say, and sometimes they may just sit there and give you a hug as you process, and that's fine. That's fine, right? Yeah, I think it's important to have that. Um, and then allowing all the emotions to exist. That's it. They're they're there, you're gonna feel them. You can't fight them. So, you know, embrace the emotions, try to process it, understand what it is, and I think that's the all you can do.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Give yourself more time if you need it. Yeah. This that that's what you have to do. You you don't have to rush things, things don't happen in some linear way, and that that's just not how it's it's it's necessarily going to to happen for you. And so if you're if you're listening and you're feeling that way, where things kind of start to feel okay, and then you then you kind of start to question it.

unknown 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Yeah. That's not I mean, that's not anything that's not you doing anything wrong. That's just part of the process. That's the work that you have to do to get through this.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah, yeah, exactly. This as you said, it's part of the process. Well, most people don't want to talk about it, but if you don't, it's it's gonna fester it's gonna talk to you if you don't. Yes, right. It may talk to you in that hospital bed because your blood pressure's up or the depression in with the counselor, whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

So yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the the the way to think about this, and one of the things that I used to also struggle with a little bit, is what if the joy isn't moving on you too fast? Like, what if it's not if you're not letting in fast enough, or if it's not coming? That's fine if it's not coming in fast. But like you've got to when it starts flowing in, just let it flow in, right? Let it be there.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Yeah, and it and and as we talked about that framing before is well, what if this is an indication that you're starting to heal?

SPEAKER_04 40:44

Oh no. Oh no, you're healing, yeah. Right, like you you've you've gotta heal. Yeah, right. And then that's that's the way you have to look at it, right? Like that's part of the healing process is finding joy and finding something else to go, you know, and and and be motivated for.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Yeah, yeah. Hey man, I think what really helped for me is just just not overthinking it, you know. Just let the moments that kind of happen, don't overanalyze it, just allow it to kind of unfold.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

Yeah, and and and the guilt, like I said, with the guilt's gonna show up, but it's just part of the process. It's normal. Don't feel like you're dysfunctional because you're feeling guilty because you have joy. Don't feel like you're dysfunctional because you've escaped the guilt. Yeah. And and embrace the joy. Like that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah, let the laughs come. Yeah, let let all of the joy that's coming in. Don't don't don't shut that down. You you don't want to stop yourself from from feeling okay, because that that's the direction that you're you're you're trying to go.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

Yeah, yeah. And it's, I mean, sometimes you won't have a lot of people singing the praise and celebrating the the fact that you've moved in that process, but that's fine, right? Sometimes your voice is enough, sometimes your perspective is enough. And I always, you know, my always, my barometer was always, you know, the smiles on the kids' faces. Yeah. Like if if if I felt like they were there and they were genuine and I can feel that they were genuinely happy, then that allowed me to feel okay, you know, embracing my own happiness.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:20

You know, and and I think, you know, a lot of people won't get it. A lot of people are not in this situation, thankfully. A lot, unfortunately, there are a good amount of people who are going through this. Yeah, but some people won't get it. Even those who are in it because they're processing it, they're in different phases and different stages. Um, I think that it's something that you gotta deal with.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

But if you take anything from this, you don't have to earn the right to feel okay again. I think that's how you have to kind of uh uh really address it and approach it.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Yeah, and and and the joy that you feel today, the way you find joy today and experience it, it doesn't mean that you're you know abandoning the memories. It doesn't mean that you're betraying that person.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

It may actually mean that you're you're able to carry that person forward, and with your kind of new life, essentially, you're enhanced and reborn to a great extent. So yeah, we would just really appreciate you all joining us again on getting back up. Finding life life to death after death. Yes, that's what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

It's a process, but you'll get there step by step.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:37

Like us, subscribe, tell everybody. DM us, do it all. Telephone us, hit us with all the ratings, and we appreciate you joining us again. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you for joining us on Getting Back Up, finding life after death. If something in today's episode spoke to you, pass it on because somebody Out there needs to hear for sure.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

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SPEAKER_05 44:14

And be sure to subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And remember, getting knocked down is part of life. But getting back up is how we live. We'll see y'all next time.