41 - I Don't Feel Like Myself Anymore | Identity After Loss

Episode 41: When you don't feel like yourself 

After loss, there comes a moment many widowers quietly experience: you look in the mirror, go to work, attend a family event, or scroll through old photos and think... I don’t even recognize myself anymore.

In this episode, Jamal and David explore the identity disruption that often follows the death of a spouse. They discuss how grief changes more than your emotions—it changes your routines, your priorities, your relationships, your confidence, and sometimes even your personality. From feeling disconnected in social situations to realizing that the version of yourself before loss lived in a completely different reality, they share personal stories about navigating the uncomfortable space between who they were and who they are becoming.

Together, they examine why trying to "get back to normal" can keep us stuck, what makes identity loss so difficult to recognize, and how growth often begins before we're even aware it's happening. This conversation is a reminder that you are not broken, lost, or failing. You are adapting to a life you never asked for—and rebuilding an identity that can honor the past while embracing the future.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Getting knocked down is part of life. Getting back up is how we live. 

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Directors: Marlon Jackson & Ted Winners (Like A Gazelle Productions)
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with grief, meet, growth. Two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding. We're talking about life after cancer, love, loss, and everything no one tells you. I'm David McLean. And I'm Jamal Jones. And this is getting back up, finding life after death. I'm telling you, brother, I I remember looking at myself just one day and just thinking, I I don't I don't recognize who I am right now. Ooh, that's that's some real that's some real feelings right there. Yeah, it's not even just grief. I mean, everything just is different. It just everything I felt I didn't know myself was hook felt a little unsettled. I moved, I've I've reacted and to different people and different situations, but just sometimes I don't feel like my like myself anymore. Yeah, I think those are those times where you look in the mirror and you realize that that reflection doesn't really look as as familiar as it used to be. Yeah, I mean I think it's we're talking today about something a lot of widowers are kind of thinking quietly and carry it to themselves. Yeah, I'm not the same. I don't look like, sound like, feel like myself anymore. And a lot of times you feel like you're a stranger in your own body, and that's a tough, tough feeling. Yeah, so today we want to kind of make this conversation around feeling comfortable with yourself, just feeling whatever kind of normal is now. And rebuilding takes some time, and maybe that's the stage where you are, and just kind of recognizing that it's there doesn't mean that you're lost, just means that you're rebuilding. Yeah. So I know I know for me that experience was one of the strangest parts of loss and grief and then recovery, right? The whole process of getting back up and and and finding life, right? And it was the challenge of, you know, like my identity, and we talked about this in previous, you know, probably early on in this these conversations, like your identity. I know my identity was so tied to being a husband, being a father, and just all of these regular routines around that. And like you weren't, you know, I wasn't navigating each day as one person, and now I'm navigating levery day as one person's decision taking care of three kids. Yeah, right. That's that's totally different, you know. So talk about a stranger, yeah, you go through that for twelve twelve years, in some cases longer, right? But that that's I mean, talking about identity, you know, changing your identity, it's it's it's like game changing. Yeah, it kind of understanding exactly who you are is it is change. So yeah. Yeah, and I mean you you know, you don't just go through that emotionally, you go through it, you know, practically. Your routines change, your role change, your future changes, like all of these potential plans, dreams, hopes that you had as a couple are scattered. They're you know, not to say thrown out the window, but completely turned, you know, completely different now. And and as you said, that going forward, you you all these elements that you talked about, the father, you're a husband now as well, protector, right, providing guidance. You don't take all of that in one package, you you're trying to, yeah, but you know, you you you have to recognize it's gonna it could be up here, down there, that that's just how it is, and you and that's when you don't feel like you recognize yourself. Yeah. I know for me, like if I think back to like some of my experiences and some of like just those moments where I did feel like who is this person and what am I doing? Um, you know, I talked about the morning routines, right? Especially, you know, for again for for me when my late wife passed away, my mother-in-law lived with us at the time. So she stayed living with us with us for a few minutes, sorry, for a few months. But then when I truly kind of had to take the next step, which was moving out on my own, right, with the kids, you know, mother-in-law, she moved in with my brother-in-law, and you know, it was just truly me and the kids, like that was the oh shit moment. Those are the moments where I woke up and she wasn't there making scrambled eggs and for the kid, you know, for the kids, and you know, wasn't the bowl of Cheerios in the morning. It was me racing downstairs, you know, with a a comb in my hair, comb in my hand, right? Half dressed, getting the kids down. Like, and I'm literally getting downstairs to the kitchen. Kids are just like scrambling to figure out lunch or breakfast or whatever, and what are they gonna eat for lunch? Are they packing? This is all stuff that like it was a collective community that used to be doing this together, and now it's just me holding it together for the kids, and those were the moments where I was literally like standing in the mirror and looking at myself, like what the what the fuck am I doing? Like, who the heck is this? Did you think it was all gonna blow up for you though at some point? And that because the alternative is is is what if you're not doing all this stuff? I mean the alternative is to me, I think the alternative is it blows up, right? Like you I in those moments that it was more like shell shock. Okay, right, and and you know, you I've never been in military or anything like that, so I can't even fathom what it is to kind of truly be shell shock. But you watch movies and you see people, then there's a grenade thrown and they survive, but the blast itself disorients them, right? And then they kind of like stand there, you know, with their vision blurry. This like at some point they come to clarity and they're like, oh shoot, I gotta get out. Right. Right. That was for me what it was a lot of times. Like for many times, it was like literally staring and daring the headlights, you know, shell shock at the moment, like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe I'm here. Right. Oh my gosh, like, okay, this has changed, and you need to change and you need to adapt to this new person you are. Yeah. That was the hard, the hardest part, realizing that you are no longer, I am no longer the same person, positively or negatively, right? Like, I am no longer the person that I was X amount of time ago. And and I think that that that part was was was revealing. And and embracing that though, too. But saying, Yeah, I there's no possible way I can be that person. Yeah, I mean because all of this has taken place. Well, I mean, that that's the accepting part. Like, there's a part of I think so many of us, even though this change has happened, we're trying to hold on to our old identity, right? This old definition of who we were to our family, to our friends, to our children. And you know, it's gonna change, right? Like you have to change. Yeah, I think there's you go through this period of time where you're fighting it and you're in kind of denial that it's changing. Um, and in some cases you you you are feeling guilty that it's changing because it's who you are, this new person that you're becoming. You get to these moments where you're like, man, I feel bad because I used to be this way and I'm not anymore. Right. And I that that that that I think is kind of the adaptive process of it. Um you know, what were some of the experiences you had, like that you that you thought? I I think it really was about going to places I once enjoyed before with when Nolani, my late wife, was around. I think in particular, there's this one brunch spot that when we were dating, we would go to every Saturday and Sunday, or at least one of the Saturday or Sunday, maybe not both days, but at least one of them. And it was just a part of our routine and we enjoyed it, we look forward to it, and then it kind of set the tone for the rest of the week. Right. And the same place that we went to when we were dating, we introduced our children to when we were married, and it was the spot, oh, we're gonna go to this spot and the pancakes, you know what pancakes. Oh yeah, oh yeah, and and and the pancakes so good that married women will leave their husbands because pancakes are good. Yes, come on now. This guy's a chef on the low, just you know, he he can throw down breakfast for sure. For sure. I don't know about anything else, but breakfast. Yeah, well and maybe we actually we need to expand on that a little bit, don't we? But anyway, so we'll do we'll do that and we'll do the cooking part, but whatever. So so it now became this place that we went back to when Nalani passed with the girls, and we made these little pins that have high heel and her birth and death date on it. And we wear it on the that day and go to the spot nice each year. Yeah. In the last maybe in this last year we didn't go, I can't recall. It's been about four years since Nalani passed for me. I'm trying to think if we went this year. I think actually we do I think we did go this year, but it wasn't something where the girls were, hey, let's go. Right, let's go. It was more that something that I I I'm kind of pushing a lot. Right. So a place that was part of routine has now become a place of commemoration anyway. So I think that has really changed, and I'm not recognizing uh yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say, did you find yourself experiencing it differently? Yes. And how did like how did that feel for you? Like it it was it really was a to a degree kind of a ceremony of and reminder. And so it was keeping buoyancy during that time. And I'm not optimistic, happy guy, but there's a reason why we're there, not just to get breakfast. Right. So so to a great extent, it was all right, I guess this is who I am this now. Yeah. So I think it it was something like that. And you you you probably tr change. I mean, if we think about like the identity, like you your identity changes from collectively with Nalani and the girls, assuming that they went with you, you like you're going there with this level of excitement. They go with me, and then now it's it's a different experience. Yeah, it's it's it's part of it. It's an it's a necessary experience, but you're different than you were five years ago. I I'm like a I'm like a guide at a museum. Tour guide, yes. Yeah, you're like now. And I'm going through the memories and pointing out things and asking questions. So it's more about commemoration in that sense. Right. It's an exhibition of the life that we have led, what came before, let's remember it. Just like a museum does. Yeah. Remembering the history behind this piece and why and all of that. So I became I'm more that than just, hey, we're just hanging out, just having a good time eating these fantastic pancakes at the end. Hungry day versus tour guy day. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely it. So it's just I think also the change in not recognizing myself is I become quieter in many situations. So much so that I get to a certain point and I'm ready to go. Yeah. And that wasn't necessarily me. I'm getting better about that. Yeah. But it's I may not engage in the conversation in the way that's in the way. Yeah. Well, because you you're in so many different ways you were used to an anchor in the Lani. It like to help to set to help to be part of setting the stage, right? Like in certain environments she led, in certain environments you led, depending on kind of who who the group was. Exactly. And now it's kind of like you don't have the co-star. And and and you know, you're dating, so it's a new co-star. You're still figuring it out. Right. Same thing, like for me and and and in and Jan, you know, Janice, we, you know, my late wife, same. We had the same, there was a dynamic where it was kind of like in certain crowds, this is her lead, I follow. In certain crowds, it's my lead. She follows. We kind of play the position and play the play the role. And then now it's changed, right? Like I'm I'm remarried and it's a different, you know, it's a different co-star. And we're we earned each other's, we picked up on each other's cues, like, you ready to go? I'm ready to go. Let's go. We saw that. Let's make our exit. Yeah. Right. And and that, you know, when you don't have that, like you're not used to that. You're like, you've you've got to figure out your own, your own window, your your own kind of role, ch your role changes, yeah. Your identity changes, and what and and and everybody's treating you differently. Yeah. And they don't realize it. That's true too. Right? Like, they don't realize it. As much as they are like, hey, it's it's Dave. Right. Right? They don't realize they're treating you differently. That was something that I remember. I think so too. And then also covering certain conversations. Does that skate over into something he's still working out? Yeah. Or and we talk about trips and couples and all the ooh, do we need to approach this differently? Because we know Dave's situation. Certainly it may be at that time. And I I appreciate that. But yeah. And if you think about like even that dynamic presents this element when you talk about identity, even that dynamic presents this element of I am now Dave four years later. I am now Jamal almost nine years later. Right. In this new phase, in this new period of life post-loss. I have gotten through this exercise of grief. Or I'm still getting through this exercise of grief, depending on where you are in the process. And here's what I believe my identity is now. And you are trying to tell me what my identity should be. Right. Or you're trying to craft or adjust or adapt to where you think I am. And that that affects my identity. That affects it's like perception, right? It's it's kind of an external pressure to to to to define who we are. Right. Right. When we are still trying to figure that out ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. No, I think that's that's a really good point. So I I think also the other thing, um, just this sense of understanding who I am, that it's I think it's exactly what you spoke to about they see you a certain way and they all want to almost congratulate, oh you you're doing so well. Right. And and that's appreciated. Yeah. I'm not saying it's oh you're not. Yeah. What else am I gonna do? Yeah, I do I have a choice. It's just I'm like so again, I appreciate it. Yeah, and it's nice to hear that encouragement and acknowledgement. I am making sure that we all are as well grounded as possible. Maybe disorienting for me because I still have to deal with my moving forward, but then there are other I have to take care of the girls and their sense of moving forward themselves. Right. When school the just the stressors or the different events that they're going to, the social pressures or whatever. So, so I'm I'm still backstop on all of that. Right. Uh what am I gonna take that away? And come on now, I still gotta do all of these things. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I I think that makes sense. And I think when you when you think about where we go, right, and kind of the the the change, you know, I think one it this kind of dovetails into like this version of who you are before the loss, and then this version of who you are after the loss, or whatever trauma experience you go through, right? I think there's a part of it where like you're now like like you're in a different life, right? Like, think about like you're you're in the widow verse. Like, can you think of like for those who are in the theater near you, coming to you like it's in the widowverse, right? Like this like the spider verse. And and it and it and it does, it kind of creates this alternate reality, yeah, where everybody, including yourself, had this vision of what life was gonna look like, had this view of what the world was gonna be. You had this view of what the world was gonna be for you and your family, regardless of the dynamics that you had going on. Yeah, right. And now everybody else altern, you know, additionally had their own view of like who was Dave and Nelani, who was Jamal and Janice. Yeah, and and now, and and the kids, right? And now, like that that that verse has changed. Yeah, right. That storyline has changed, and I think so much of it is like in parallel in your identity, you're like, Well, what do we want to be if we grew up? Well, this is reality, this is what we're becoming. Yeah, yeah. And it it overall it could be a disruption for you. Like, no, no, no, guys, is it but but you you're trying to get unstuck. Right. You know, you you're you you are trying to you can't go back, so you you you have to kind of move forward. And so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the the thing about it, like where this shows up, it's like you know, every day, like it's like the everyday life, your conversations, like I talked about earlier, you know, just getting through the morning routine. Like, it's something as simple as that. Like, your identity changes in that, your role changes, your identity changes, like how you pull that together changes, and and that's important. Like the conversations, the way you see yourself ultimately, you know, and and this is goes back to one of the things that as I thought about my identity after loss, after losing, at some point in time I stepped into this role and and it became part of my identity. And you know, you know, my my wife Jordan now talks about it in the context of I had this identity of the mom dad, right? And the sense that I had to step up and learn how to do it all and learn how to be all things. And that truly became, for better or for worse, part of my identity. The worst part about it was this element of like I I could do it all by myself. Right. Like I don't need help. Not that I don't need help, but I'm not asking. I'm moving too fast to take time to pause and think about when I need help. Yeah. And I was kind of this this this part of my identity that I needed to be all things to my kids in particular. Um, and I think that was important to to to kind of you know think about like who are you then versus what's your identity now. Yeah, and then I think it was kind of that definition of who you are at that moment. This this is the core of who you are, and now you're having to add in things because you're you're different now. Right. It it's it's just different now, right? Yeah, so yeah, and I think you know things operated differently. Sure. You just function and like it shows up, right? It could pop up out of nowhere, you know, these these triggers, so to speak, of like what reminds you remembrance the remembrance as we like to say remembrance, yeah, like the triggers and remembrance of like these things that pushed you into these new identities or helped you realize yes, you need to change. And I'm not saying there's a bad identity, but you have to change, you are going to change, right? And you're gonna go through this metamorphosis until you figure out who the heck you are now, true, and you're comfortable with it. That's the real you've you've got to get comfortable with this new identity. Yeah, right. But I mean, when you're looking at old pictures, you you talked about seeing the family, different events, yeah, social settings, you know, the parenting decisions, you know, those are those are things that are gonna present themselves that help you realize and make you realize like, oh man, like it's it's changed and I feel different. Right. Yeah. Anything like what uh what what kind of top of mind for you, you know, in addition to you, I think the social setting was a good one, but like Yeah, I I just you you realize you almost out of body to kind of the the the widow versus you said you stand outside of yourself and you look at everything around you, your your your engagement into that social setting is totally different now, and you think differently now because it's it is all on you. Now, if you are enter into a relationship where you remarry, you're still different, and it's how you're adding that person in there. So I mean for me, I think it was because I've gone through these different eras or uh not that long, it hasn't been that long, but different seasons as we as we talk about is okay, so the social settings, so now I have introducing somebody new into the situation, right? So we don't have the same history as the others around us. In those social settings. We're just starting our history now. And so I think you now I got so comfortable being married 17 plus years, knowing the woman I was with almost 20 years. Right. And also those people knowing that history of us. Now there's this this this whole other kind of chapter that book that's being written. Yeah, and and and then right to to touch on that, like talk to on your identity, what they thought your identity was, what you believe your identity was, what your identity became after you lost. Right. And then what they felt your identity was and should be. Yep. And then now you're saying, oh no, like I'm changing again. Right. Right. I'm changing again. Yeah. Right. Like it's a constant metamorphosis, and you can like, and I think it's up the parallel path of like these identities and how they kind of hand off from one one to the other and how you adapt to that. Um well let me also ask you. So it's kind of the the the next was kind of where it shows up. What about the parenting for you now? And and and how do you recognize yourself now or or not when it now comes to parenting with your now wife? Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's it's a balance, right? You know, I think we you know, I was I had a a different parenting role, a slightly different, did a different parenting role, you know, in in in my late, you know, before Janice passed, where she was a mother already. So it was kind of like me learning a little bit from her what parenting looks like. And then, you know, we had our children together, and I was like, wait a second, like I want to right-size some of this stuff. Like I didn't uh I I didn't necessarily I I don't necessarily a hundred percent agree with this, so let's let's dial it into what works for us in and so it kind of went from like a follow then co-league, right? And then into me doing everything. And then got remarried and started a family over with with with my wife Jordan and or added to your family, added to the family, right? And now it's like, oh well, parenting for me feels different, right? It's it's different. It's also me taking it it's it's kind of this tag team effort, but also me recognizing that way, hey, like there were things that I didn't love about being a stepdad, so to speak, you know, when when I got first got married, and that I' Janice. To Janice. And I don't I don't want to do this. I want to give, I want to adjust this, I want to make these changes. Um, but I think part of it also is, you know, in the part where the identity kind of gets a little scrambled sometimes, is in passing on the memories to the kids, right? And and and kind of making sure that I'm giving the storyline that existed, not just my view. It's kind of like, hey, this is my personal, no, no, no, no. I've got to like give this memory or give this experience or give this narrative for both me and Janice, right? The kid's mom. So it's like in in some cases, like the the identity part is kind of like trying to bring forward what would Janice say, you know, what would WWJ do? What would Janice say in this? What would she bring to this story or this memory or this lesson? That part kind of gets a little, I struggle with, okay, right. And I think you struggle with what was the lesson that Nelani would pass within that the obligation of parenting of parenting in the absence of that mother, essentially. Yeah, I think that's the one area now today where particularly with you know the kids that that you know Janice and Janice and I, my late wife and I had together, that's the part where the identity piece is like, man, like how do I bring her voice to this lesson? How do I bring her voice to this experience and let her be part of this moment? Um, and that there's an identity. Like the I think you always struggle. I mean, this is nine years for me, right? And and it doesn't go away. The identity battle, the challenge doesn't completely go away. Right. I think there's always an element of it where you you're you're gonna have to like try to navigate that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As you also add in what your now wife brings to that situation. Yeah, yeah. Um, so you know, I I I think that's something like I I think in in the tune of like, you know, we talked about what are the things that surprise you. That's the thing, that's honestly one of the things that surprised me. Like, it's nine years, and I still struggle with the identity piece. Like the identity part is still there in the social settings, in the family dynamics, when you see, you know, family members, you know, from from you know the other side of the family, or you engage. I mean, you recently went through that a little bit with with you know some health issues and in Melani's family. You're like, you know, so it's like it's interesting how those things still like wait, what's my role? True. Right. Very much so. You know, I think that's something that surprised me. Yeah, I yeah, I think just that dynamic, as you said, it's if she were here, she'd how would she do it? Do I have the same gravitas as she does? Can I suggest we do this and the other? Will I be hurt at all? Or you know, so yeah, I think you're right. But yeah, just to kind of finish it up with where where it kind of shows up is you you feel emotionally numb, and that's okay. And the what moments that kind of used to excite you may not. Yeah, and and I think that is the symptoms of where you are with the grief and loss, and and it shows how human you are. And a numbness, maybe numbness, but it may be adaptation. Yeah, like I think you do call it numbness, and sometimes it's like it just doesn't hurt as much, right? And I think it's it's it's okay for that process. It's okay to also know the difference, yeah. Right. If you if you want to know the difference, I think it's helpful to kind of tune into like am I numb or am I adjusting? Yeah. Um, but I do think like, yeah, like those become those moments where it shows up and it may surprise you that it showed up the way it did. Yeah, and what surprised me really is I don't know why I thought it it would last a certain amount of time. I I I think that's what surprised me. It's yes, I know it's when I think about it logically, I know it's going to last. But I think it's all these little episodes that continue to happen. I think it always will kind of surprise me how long that feeling kind of lasts about and not feeling like myself. Maybe those there will be those reminders, but yeah. Yeah, I I think there's a part where, you know, to your point, like how long it lasts, like I said, you know, there's times that I still deal with it differently. And again, it's not this deep grief, it's more just like, man, like this moment, this experience, this social setting, this conversation with a family member or this text message that I receive or whatever. Like, and you get these, it's like somebody poking you, yeah, right, a little bit and reminding you, like, oh yeah, like taking you back to that point. It takes you back to that point, but it also takes you back, like, wait, where should I be? Yeah. Is right. Is who I am and how I am okay right now? That's right. Yeah. Is who I am and how I am acceptable to the to everybody, right? Friends, family, kids, etc. Like, and I think there's that the there's that pressure where you always second guess where you are in your grieving process. Yeah. Are you far enough? Are you too far? Right. And then is your like you said, like is the identity piece, you know, like how does that like it's where I am right now okay with everybody? It it's is it healthy? Is it I totally agree with you? I mean, because you so often people just think grief is is is only sadness. Right. That that that's the only expression of it. But sometimes you you're just trying to figure out who you are, and that's gonna show in in in kind of many different ways. So so what surprised me about all this and what I didn't expect about this whole process is that how much it can change your personality and how long that could exist of as you said, this metamorphosis that's happening. Yeah. You forget it yes, if if you're not feeling, then you're not healing. Yeah. No, I I think so I I could be wrong, but I didn't think I was an asshole. I don't think before before before Janice passed that way. Okay. She might have thought I was an asshole at the beginning. Right. But I feel like in general, but there are times that I that I do something or say something, I react a certain way, I say something to a friend, and and and then I walk away, I'm like, man, like Jamal, that you sounded like a little bit like an asshole. Right? And I don't think it's it's not coming from a place of I'm just this, you know, angry, you know, my my late wife passed away. No, it's more coming from I'm gonna say what I feel, what I think. Yeah, I'm trying to help, I'm trying to give you, but I'm also trying to give you my genuine, this is how I feel about this thing. Yeah, like I it's no, and and But was it tempered when Janice was? It was tempered, it was more also, and but then also say, well, but I'm I'm I'm 10 years older than I was now. True, right? I'm I'm I'm I went through 12 years of marriage, so how was it 20 something, 30 to 40 to now like you evolve and you change with maturity, with wisdom. Yeah. So like is is is who I am and how I am now, my personality changes solely based on loss. No. Is it based on loss? Yes, right. And I think that's one thing. I think there's elements of you know, me, I do believe, and I think that when you think about personality, we always, you know, people always joke about men not being empathetic and we don't, we're not good feelers. And I feel like I am now, right? And there's times that, you know, I'll have conversations with, you know, my my wife Jordan now, and we'll tell she'll be like, Well, she was like, You, I know you know. I know you are able to tune into that because you're able to do that. Right? You're able to know if so if I miss something that she might be feeling or miss something that the kids might be feeling, she'd be like, I know you're I know you can tune into that. Like you weren't paying attention. Oh 10, 15 years ago, I might not have seen it at all. I might not have been able to sense an emotion, a feeling, and now I actually can. Okay. You know, there's an element of empathy that I think is there now that wasn't there before the loss. Um, so I do think that the personality is changes are real. I do believe that. Um I thank you for not thinking I'm an asshole. I've never thought that. But maybe I've gotten this different version of Jamal after all of this. Yeah. But I'm sure there's a nice balance before. So the thing that's surprised I think how much your identity was tied to partnership. Like that is wild. Like, I know there was a part, you know, you know, after you lose, and like we talked about your friends and your the fellows are like, man, you could get out there and but like then you realize like, well, I didn't I don't want to be out there. Like what I what I enjoyed or what I was part of was a partnership. Yeah. It wasn't like uh I'm just out there frolicking, right? Right, and and just connecting with anybody, like it's a partnership, and that's what and I think that's something that was you it was a it was a it was a interesting experience or or exploration for me. Yeah, uh maybe also the feeling emotionally disconnected from from old routines. Yeah. And I think maybe that's part of that wisdom process of I don't really need to do whatever that was. What benefit does that? Do I have time actually for that? Right. Nah, let me, you know. And and and that could be you're still we've moved along in so many ways in maturity and emotionally so, and that it is a reassessment of, yeah, I I don't recognize myself, but I think that's okay in this situation for some of these routines. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then I think you you talked about it, like which ones, you know, that that just this the simple step of moving forward, right, didn't necessarily just like restore your confidence in who you are. Right. It just the simple step of okay, now it's a month later, now it's six months later, yeah, now it's four years later. Like those that that in and of itself doesn't make you feel any better, any stronger, any more secure in who you are today and what you're supposed to be doing, right? That that distance and that time. And that the your priorities obviously shift from that. Yeah. And I think that's we talked about in the past, and that's certainly uh what surprised me is how easily we're able to Yeah, that's not a priority anymore. Oh, yeah. And that and that's okay. Yes. We we we can move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. You know, and I I think this one is real. I mean, I think the people who are in your life, who were in your life, and who were in your life in your partnership, and the life and the existence of your partnership, like there's a part of them that are expecting the old you back. And you know, when you talk about personality changes, priority changes, like all of these different changes that you go through, like that's probably disorienting from for a lot of them, right? And seeing you go through that. I know, you know, I've like I said, we've you you talk about your friends and our relationships and our friendships and and family, and people like, oh, you've changed. And are you you sense that you've changed, and and you and you have like I know I have changed in so many different ways throughout this throughout these nine years for me. And I know my kids have changed in so many different ways, and it's scary and uncomfortable for a lot of people. And I think that's something that it's surprising to me. But it's also it's in a way it's surprising, but it's not like we're actually having these conversations with with anybody of how we've actually changed, right? Like you and I talk about it, yeah. But I know like I have honestly could tell you right now, I don't think I've had a conversation about with my even my parents about how I've changed. But they acknowledge it, they've acknowledged it. Yeah, yeah, but it's not like it hasn't been this deep conversation about how and why. It's acknowledgement, and they may acknowledge it to other people. And at the end of the day, you know that these people are probably just like, well, he seems happy or he seems sad, like whatever the change is that they're seeing. And hopefully they under they're they understand that, yeah, whether they've been in that setting or or not. Yeah, but like you said, it's like you're feeling like you're evolving and grieving at the same time. And and I think that kind of surprised us. We we knew we had to get there through this process, but it's still kind of surprised that wow, okay, this may really hurt one day, yeah. But then this is also as you say, this adaptation, this evolving. And so I'm I'm fine because as long as everything else is going the route it should, and everybody, kids are okay, and parents and everybody involved in my life. All right, good. All right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that's something that when you think about that change, the the balance of evolving and grieving at the same time, the balance of the the changes and the evolution you have to make for yourself, your kids, if you're taking care of kids and children or kids, you know, whatever you care. I mean, there's people who are going through this who are who were taking care of a senior parent. Yeah. And now they're a partner's gone, and now it's them by themselves or trying to figure out how do they tap into the new community. I think that was one that that's you know, you deal with that, and in that evolution, I know where I struggled with pushing myself back to where I used to be. There's a you know, I know for me personally, like there were times where I felt like my change was uncomfortable maybe to the kids or to friendships or dynamics with my family. And there was a balance and a battle, kind of a tug of war of old Jamal and new Jamal. And there were times where I remember feeling like man, like I know this old Jamal was really comfortable to these people, but this doesn't feel good to me. Like old Jamal and where I was and how I was doesn't feel good to me. Yeah, so I I think I gotta let them go. Yeah. Yeah. And and some of these people, some of my friends, some of my community, my family, and even the kids, they might have to learn what this is like now with without old. Yeah. And I'm not talking about like this massive big change, I'm talking about like these subtle nuances that make you who you are and and help to form your identity and how you were, and now it's different, right? I I I feel the same way, and it's as if after you go through this passage of all of the strife, all of the rebalancing of your life, that you there's some semblance that you're you're recreating again, and and and and I struggled with thinking no no, it it it's not gonna be like that again. And so I think further to this idea of where I struggled is letting go of that expectation of there is no return to normal. There's a there's a return to there is no return. Yeah. It's further progression, movement, development. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think it's you know, we talked about like the social settings and how you navigate them differently. Like it's like you've you've gotta trust yourself, get to a place where you trust yourself that you can handle it, right? That you know, you used to you have a have a have a have a stage partner, right? A c you know, yeah, somebody who you you you walked on stage with, yeah, and now it's either by yourself or maybe it's a different person, and guess what? You'll be as fine. Yeah, right? Like you'll adapt to the new style, the new flow. It's like, you know, uh a team, you know, kudos to my Knicks, but it's like a team, like listen, it's a different team than last season. You got one new player, or maybe the plays are different, but like you still got you you still get an accord and you get a rhythm, right? And I think that's the there's a part there where you you find a new rhythm. Yeah, but and also where I think I struggled too is this feeling disconnected while you're trying to effectively parent, to parent as well as you possibly can. Yeah, that's a big one. Um, you know, and then you know, being the present in the friendships and the relationships, you know, but recognizing that, like you said, with all these changes you've gone through, you've still got to figure out how do you be present in those relationships, right? You you don't want to abandon those those friendships and relationships, and you hope that they don't abandon you as you've gone through your changes um and your experiences along the way. And I think that's that's important. Like it's a it's a necessary part of that adjustment. Like, you know, we especially today, like you, you know, in the spirit of like mental health month, you hear so many people talking about isolation being like a major driver of mental health and mental you know, mental health issues, and like that can happen in this in this experience. I remember feeling like I I isolated myself from different people, and then at some point I felt like I was isolated, right? Because I was going through different phases of adjustment. Yeah, right, yeah. So and in that it's this accepting the the personal development, the personal growth w without guilt. Mm-hmm that that's something hard to struggle with as you know, you as you said, you isolating yourself, and just like nah, this this is part of this this growth. Don't feel guilty about that, how it looks on the outside. Yeah, and a key thing is just you know, like it as you go through that the personal growth, isolation we talked about before, you know, don't don't feel like you gotta do it alone. Like there's always family friends that are there, they may not know exactly what to say, they may not be fully comfortable with where you are, or they're even still trying to figure out how they help you and support you and your family, but like you know, be be willing to tap in. And then, you know, I think one is like just like you gotta give yourself time to evolve through this process. Yeah, right. It's not like a light switch, right? You you have to take the time to evolve through this process and tap into who you are, who you want to be on this other side. What are the things that are important to you now and how you kind of keep those in front of you? Yeah. Yeah. So um, you know, and I think listen, what what's gonna make this process worse is is is you can we talked about it, like getting stuck in the comparison of who you used to be. Yeah, you can't put on somebody else's timeline. Yeah, you can't it's it it's it's got to be yours and have to feel natural. Yeah. So so what can make this worse, and I think it was what what made it hard for for me is trying to rush your emotional recovery. Because I can recall from in a relationship, you kind of had that compliment to help you and talk you through it. And so it's it's hard to try to find that again, all that you have dealt with. Yeah. So I so I think that's that's what could make it worse. Yeah, and then you know, expect expecting yourself to just bounce back, right? Like we talk about get back getting back up. Getting back up doesn't mean jumping right back up. It means like gradually get your bearings, get get the ground under you, yeah. Let the grogginess and the the blurriness kind of fade away, right? And and and get and get through that. Yeah, and and what can make it worse too is that you're avoiding something that's new, making some changes, looking at different newer experiences. That that can make it worse. Yeah. You know, I we talked a couple minutes of isolation. Don't avoid the meaningful conversations. Like you gotta have the tough conversations, you gotta find ways to laugh. Yeah. And if it if it's necessary, you gotta find the ways to cry, but like you gotta have those discussions. Yeah, you're talking about kind of suppressing those emotions. Yeah. Can't do that. Yeah. We know that's gonna eat you up. We talked about that, and we'll continue to kind of underscore that in in in everyone's development here. Yeah, and like I said, you can't look back, you gotta look forward. Um, you know, it's a new life, it's a new, it's a new a new phase of of who you are and who you're becoming, and that's gonna be a part of identity. Yeah, you know, this big theme of of of who you are in this phase. Um and acknowledging how much you've already survived. Yeah. I mean, that's key. Like to think about what you've gone through, like, you know, not to celebrate, but you gotta celebrate the fact that you are this far in this process. Yeah, just the you don't have to recreate, you don't have to have that feel that pressure to recreate the old version of a life that has moved on. So I I think that that's what can make it worse if you if you if you don't kind of embrace that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what what what's what can kind of help? Uh accepting the change? It's unavoidable. Resistance is futile. So you'll give yourself permission, as you said before. Yeah. Permission to evolve. It's it's it is you are something completely new from that experience of hurt and pain. There's something positive gonna come out because you as best you can insulate yourself from that. Yeah. But insulate doesn't mean hibernate. Right. Yeah. Right. And I think you you you it's like it's gonna be small steps, right? Every everything, like I said, everything is a win, every day is a win. Like the small the small adjustments, the small reprioritizations, you know, realizing that you can't be do the impossible, what used to be the routine that you had with two people, in what you saw yourself as with two people is is gonna change. It's it's changing every day. Um, I think just be okay doing that, and then honestly, just be, you know, uh open up, find other people in a community, other widowers, other widowers, other people who've gone through other people who've gone through other type of life, life-changing events, yeah, um, that can help you have these conversations. Yeah, just also just letting this sense of your rebuilding of your identity that just let it evolve naturally, uh instead of forcing it, as we said, yeah, because you may not like what the result is by doing that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then I think the the biggest thing is you you're going forward, you're not just getting back up, you're going forward. There's no reason to continue to dwell on what you used to be, what you used to be. It's it's good to reflect on it, think about it, but you know, you you can't go back. Yeah, yeah. So if you're listening to us and you don't see yourself quite the way you do, yeah. So know that it Yeah, it doesn't mean you're broken. Like it it it is nothing wrong with you. It's a process, you're just going through the process. Yeah, just your your life has changed it in a major way. And as you had said, I like this word of adaptation, and that's what's happening. You're you're adapting to it. Yeah. I mean, but Dave, like what if the goal, like what if the goal isn't getting back to who you were? So so what if the goal is becoming who you're supposed to be now? Right. Yeah, that that's uncomfortable. Yeah. But that's like that's that's the reality. Yeah. Right? Like that's uh you've literally probably spent a significant part of your life as one person doing a particular thing, playing a different role, and like that is now completely different. Yeah. I I I think what helped me is not thinking you have to be this perfect sense of normal. Yeah. And you know, I think you you also have to realize that like in between the phase is part of the process. Like it's there's an in-between, there's a here you were then, then there's the in-between, and then there's the here you are going to be. The accumulation of all of these steps. Yeah, yeah. And and small, yes, as as we uh talked about before. Yeah, just small steps, just just rebuilding the structure slowly. Yeah. And like you, at the end of the day, you have to give yourself permission, not ask anybody else for permission. You're giving yourself permission to make these changes, to change, to adapt, to adjust, and take on this new identity because it's you you have no choice. Yeah. So Yeah, you're right about that. No question. So, you know, listen, if you if you take anything from this, I think an important part of this whole narrative is You're not lost. Yeah. That's it. You're you're just going through transition. Life has been turned upside down. Yeah, you're just you're just changing. Doesn't mean that you're broken. You just lost that love that that has shaped you, that one person that you were all this time. Yeah. So we thank you very much for joining us again on Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death. Thank you very much. We appreciate you joining us and like us, subscribe, follow, share with somebody who can hear this, needs to hear this. Send the comments to us. We'll have all kinds of different interviews continuing to come and different special people come into the studio, virtual or live. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on Getting Back Up, finding life after death. If something in today's episode spoke to you, pass it on because somebody else needs to hear it. For sure. We're on the social module. So follow us on Instagram and TikTok. Mostly it would be in the form of Getting Back Up Podcast. And be sure to subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And remember, getting back up is part of life. But getting back up is how we live. We'll see y'all next time.